EPT[I] [S] Shadow Mini Mafia
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Holyflare
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Holyflare
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Holyflare
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On January 18 2014 23:51 jaybrundage wrote: Oh this is where I saw your name. I knew it sounded familiar -_- Wut? | ||
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Holyflare
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Holyflare
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On January 21 2014 04:30 VisceraEyes wrote: Did he ask you to? This is important, and I know he'll tell me the truth. Yeh he asked me to use the small change so of course i refused | ||
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Holyflare
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On January 21 2014 17:12 Hapahauli wrote: Fair enough. ##Unvote VE's responses seem very emotional and townie. Almost identical to how he responded to my case against him in the Duke Nukem Hydra Mini. Really no point in any more pressure. Foolish, can you elaborate on your Wave thing? All I see is a pretty standard opening post that you quoted in your vote. Why did you feel the need to justify your new read on VE (based on meta) with a quote from foolish saying you are both town? Only to then ask him to only elaborate on wave and not the reasons he thinks you are both town? Free town cred is nice but not if the person it's coming from is questionable. | ||
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Holyflare
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On January 21 2014 18:56 Hapahauli wrote: Foolish's post echoed my sentiments, and tipped me over to unvoting. It's not a justification - it's more my own reference point. Only to then ask him to only elaborate on wave and not the reasons he thinks you are both town? Free town cred is nice but not if the person it's coming from is questionable. As far as him elaborating on the other reads goes, I thought his rationale was straightforward and short. His read on wave is 10000x more interesting to me than the town reads. As for yourself Holy, have you gleaned anything from the thread yet? Your entrance is plenty critical of myself and Foolish's play, but doesn't say anything about our alignments. You used a post from a player that has had 0 contribution to the game as a platform for you to further your paradigm of VE. Not only is that strange but you do not question HOW he could have those reads (something you absolutely should because how else do you learn about another player's mindset?) The only thing you question is his read on wave. You should absolutely not be happy when someone calls you or someone else town for no reasoning and should be questioning it as you have been questioning mostly everything for the entirety of the game. As for the rest of the thread: On January 21 2014 11:21 WaveofShadow wrote: As far as I can tell, he doesn't respond to pressure on himself this early so it wouldn't matter. I only offered that as an aside anyway, my main reason for not wanting to vote him is because I literally don't see one. Hapa, do you see yourself getting shot N1 in this game? On January 21 2014 11:22 VisceraEyes wrote: If we're talking meta, pressure won't mean anything to sandroba. He'll either play or he won't, and if he's town he'll probably find some scum. People like kita voting for him as a joke will probably not pressure him as much as you seem to think. I don't understand why this conversation was ended around here. We absolutely should be pushing everyone and not letting them ignore posts and accusations directed at them. It's a team game where we have to demonstrate our townieness to each other. Why should we let a player not participate in the game just because he gets better later when in fact we have the potential to learn more about his alignment today? This sentiment was echoed by hapa BUT THEN TOTALLY CONTRADICTED AS WELL. On January 21 2014 11:18 Hapahauli wrote: I don't understand your reasoning here. What does him being a "slow-starter" have to do with not wanting to vote for him? For example, wouldn't it be arguably good to put pressure on him early to determine his alignment? On January 21 2014 12:24 Hapahauli wrote: Well... why wouldn't you post this before? Regardless, several players have mentioned that sandroba isn't going to respond to pressure anyway, so I don't see the point here. I don't understand the mindset behind this. You suggest we find his alignment by way of pressure but then give into the sentiment of other players of which you do not know the alignment of and say that we should not pressure him because he won't respond instead of taking the initiative of your confirmed alignment to yourself and pressuring sandroba yourself. This isn't something a townie mindset does at all. I'm interested to hear your reasoning before I put my vote down on you though because there's no reason being hasty. That being said the thing that stuck out to me the most was VE's posts and vote on Prome. I actually agree with much of what he has said and I do not get the motive behind happa's line of questioning. Hapa mentioned: On January 21 2014 13:19 Hapahauli wrote: The problem I have with your case on Prom right now is that it seems like a troll vote that you're trying to justify retroactively. Why do you assume that it is retroactive justification instead of new evidence coming to light after a troll vote? What he was saying made sense and prome's opening post seemed like it was pre-written before he even read any of the game. I'll get into this later when I have the time and get back but for now I'll leave you to talk about what i've said above. | ||
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Holyflare
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Holyflare
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On January 21 2014 22:51 gonzaw wrote: Fluff o clock just happens to be at the same time as my foot massage time Promy prom Im at work. Skimmed and theres too much blablabla ill ignore. Ill gladly focus on foo and maybe marvy when i get home. But right now, marv is right, unless anything more interestong happens foolishness should be D1 lynch. WHY CANT YOU BE TOWM FOO I REALLY WANT YOU TO!! Im scared of kita since he seems to have that umreadable type of attitude when playing and pressuring. Doesnt help he gets into fluffy discussions and shit. Why Foolishness over sandroba? They have both posted nothing. Your goal is clearly to lynch a lurker today so why are you going to ignore the rest of what has happened on day 1 when your intentions are already set in stone? | ||
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Holyflare
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On January 21 2014 23:06 marvellosity wrote: Would you like me to, Holy? Still got all that change? | ||
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On January 21 2014 23:10 gonzaw wrote: Sandro is always like that. What,foo did is typical scum foo That's not my point. If what Foolishness has posted is in fact indicative of a scum Foolishness and he is your most likely to be lynched target then why are you not reading into the only tangible bit of the thread with content to get other reads and find other scum? | ||
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Holyflare
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On January 21 2014 23:12 marvellosity wrote: The wording of this question doesn't make sense, because the red follows logically from the green, no? There is clearly more than 1 scum in this game. If he has found 1 why has he got the intention to not read to find another? | ||
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On January 21 2014 23:14 gonzaw wrote: No marvy im talking about that other game you talked about in the Mafia Awards thread i think (was it Msrio mafia or aomwthing?) Well holy maybe you could chill down and wait till i get home and finally be able to read the thread. This little chat im having now is mostly to show my process of thougth while i read the thread and have little info and whilr i gain more info. Its a good way to establish one's towniness Well I'm sorry if it comes across as antagonism. I just find it odd that your contribution in your work time would be to mention someone that has little to no posts that are suspicious as hell rather than read the rest of the thread and portray your fresh ideas when you are home. I will take a step back and let you do your thing though. I have yet to play with everyone here so will learn your meta eventually. | ||
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Holyflare
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On January 21 2014 23:03 gonzaw wrote: it's not grasping at straws when you mention it yourself but yeh, the more i look at it the more i realise it's not something scum indicative as such. Well dunno marvy you dont seem so quite engag so far. I prefertrying to ger a read off you than trying to make sense of the Hapa VE shit ill most likely ignore for instance. I,think i rememer you throwing buddies under the bus pretty early and with conviction when you were acum, so if foo is scum i dont really have a proble with you being too | ||
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Holyflare
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On January 22 2014 00:56 kitaman27 wrote: Seven pages over the first 17 hours is pretty weak. -_- Since I don't believe we've crossed paths before HolyFlare, lets chat. I'll let you choose the topic. Oh oh!! What is your opinion on democracy in general? Are you more in favour of say, a technocracy, or do you like current systems of leadership? Should we go back to dictatorships? Long live the king? Realistically though, what is your opinion of Gonzaw's style? I haven't played with him before and I'm not in right now so can't check up on it. Why is he spending so much time on foolishness? On January 22 2014 05:23 gonzaw wrote: My entrance post was obviously the best, there's nothing sandro can state otherwise. Spoiler for stuff that may not matter much: + Show Spoiler + Because waiting until "he has something to go by" might be wasting time (I won't hold off a vote or read to wait for a guy to do some specific thing that may never happen, specially when I'm starting to feel strongly he can be scum). Yeah that tends to happen with Foo, at least with me. I rarely need him to like start posting a bunch before starting to believe he's scum. At times one post may be enough. Well, usually. I think I just have this urge to lynch a scum Foo on D1 since like ever lol. And again, I prefer to establish myself as super town before finding scum. If a post of mine makes no sense in the "hunt scum" department, it does in the "make everybody believe there is no way you can be scum" department. I didn't vote Foo...yet, because I was waiting to read the thread. I'll most likely vote him yes, but I'm not in a hurry. So I'm catching up. First things first: Why the hell does WOS post "Welp" so many times? :/ Are you trying to act like a noob on purpose or something? Dunno if it's scummy or too scummy to be scum, just straight up interesting (not in a good way) I don't understand, this is most probably the reason that foolishness voted for WoS, based on the welp and shit in his first post but you are construing foolishness as scummy but WoS' actions are now scummy too. So is foolishness now not trolling and is actually right and you wasted time or is he still trolling and you think both are scummy? | ||
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Holyflare
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As for not being more critical of the read on myself... well I'm fucking obviously town. That much should be clear from my early-game interest level, and the multitude of players calling me town so early (citing my lack of interest level when I'm mafia in general). If you are town, you are obviously town to yourself. When another player that you do not know the alignment of says you are town, when there was plenty of information that made you look not town, (the stuff that I was bringing up) then alarm bells should ring. I do not know if it's a difference in styles or because I'm just super paranoid in general but these are the things I look out for. | ||
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Holyflare
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On January 22 2014 06:00 Hapahauli wrote: This is such a strange question. 1) Why are you talking about him spending so much time on foolishness, when you haven't addressed any of his arguments? Especially... you know... the largest post in the thread currently? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=18#359 2) What is relevant about gonzaw's style so far? He's posted the most content in the thread and has done the most scumhunting of anyone. I don't know how you could raise any questions about his style given what he's posted. 3) Your attitude on Foolishness makes no goddamn sense. In this post, you're deflecting attention from him and puzzled on how gonzaw could spend time on him. ...yet in your posts addressed to me, you repeatedly call foolishness sketchy, scummy, and are generally suspicious of him and his sparse posting. What gives? I do not want to participate in a discussion based on a person with 4 posts, it is futile. Foolishness has posted nothing and gonzaw is spending his entire time focusing on that person. I want to know what Gonzaw is like in other games, does he tunnel like that, does he declare he is not reading the thread till he gets home only to still spend his time on futile research? These are all questions I would like to know the answers to based on people's previous games with him. Just because he has put effort in and has posted does not make him towny. I asked that question specifically to kita because I think me and him are on the same wavelength (he asked gonzaw how long it took him to do the foolishness meta post - what I assumed to be seeing how he was allocating time) and I would like him to elaborate on his thoughts. I have no attitude towards foolishness other than my dislike for his unexplained reads. It's not scummy, it's not towny, I want to know his reasonings before I take my read further. Could he be scum? Yes. Could he be town? Yes. I do not know and cannot know until he posts, so of course my attitude to him would be a net null read. | ||
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On January 22 2014 06:07 gonzaw wrote: Well Hapa, it's not strange if he's scum isn't it? How about answering the posts directed at you so I can get into your brainz. | ||
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Holyflare
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On January 22 2014 07:00 gonzaw wrote: Another guy I have my eyes on is Holy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=16#318 This post seems odd to me. He just gets into the thread, and yet seems angry for some reason? He seems angry at Hapa I dunno why. Most of his post revolves around some small unimportant shit. He "pressures" Hapa because he didn't accuse Foo for Foo's town read on him, and because Hapa apparently backed down his "pressure" of sandro. I mean, those are valid concerns to pressure, but the way Holy does is odd as hell. He pushes it like it's some super awesome case. He addresses Hapa like he's cornered scum. There are 2 things I find scummy about this: 1)He's super pissed of for no reason at all (I mean...read his all-caps sentence). A townie wouldn't be this pissed off on their 1st post against someone they haven't interacted with at the moment, and someone that didn't fuck up or did anything wrong (Hapa was actually pretty active by then, and apparently "pro-town", so why get so angry at him?). Unfounded anger and aggressiveness are mafia traits, either because he feels angry or mad at being scum, or because it's a scum agenda he's pushing. 2)The bolded bit seems too extreme to me, and also includes the fastest backpedalling I've seen. He considers Hapa not caring about sandro anymore. I mean, he even got that wrong (Hapa's "pressure sandro" is actually a line of reasoning to pressure WOS and kita; Hapa doesn't think himself that everybody should vote and pressure sandro until his head explodes or something). Saying that "This isn't something a townie mindset does at all" makes no sense. But then he doesn't keep that up and backpedals saying he doesn't want to be "hasty" or some shit. This post reads all wrong to me. Also, should I point the obvious contradictions?: For someone so HELLBENT on not letting any lurker go by and pressure them, he sure does let lurker Foolishness go by without pressuring him. Foo has some (founded) accusations against him, and he's lurking. Based on Holy's previous post, this is all good and dandy isn't it! Well, apparently not, since he refuses to acknowledge anything being said about Foo', and clearly states that he doesn't want to participate in a "futile" discussion where he has no "attitude towards foolishness" and is relentlessly going against him for doing what he actually said we should be doing (i.e pressuring the lurkers and not letting them go by even if they get "good later on" and stuff?) This makes no sense in context with his previous post. Also, apparently he thinks that these kind of contradictions "isn't something a townie mindset does at all" (which is what he did to Hapa before). So basically, he is calling himself scum. There's also the fact he thinks it's fine to pressure sandro but not Foolishness, and doesn't state many reasons for that. From his perspective there should be no difference between sandro and Foolishness (they are 2 lurkers who barely post and nobody knows much about them), however in Holy's posts there is a clear difference between them, where he wants to deflect attention from Foo and into sandro. Anyways, I don't want to get too much carried on, but right now i'm leaning towards Foo and Holy being scum, with VE coming up third. I'm open to discussions, and people throwing their ideas (and more importantly, their votes) based on this. I still want to keep my vote on Foo' first, and keep him up for lynch (unless other stuff happens). The ending of this post is singlehandedly the most misconstrued post against me I've seen in a long while. Here's why: When I ran through the thread people were calling hapa "pro-town" yada yada, the stuff you were all saying was "lovely hapa please show us the way" so when I see the things that stand out, like accepting free town reads yet pushing a question on something different then I will of course pressure it. The way I write is no different from how I have written in any game. In fact, you spent so much time looking into Foolishness' filter for his 4 posts but you have written at much more length about me and haven't bothered to check how I write, why is that? There is no anger in my typing, I use caps lock for emphasis on points I deem important. If I was angry I would be swearing. You also mention me backpeddling, yet, you don't understand why? If a player contradicts themself in such a gross fashion then there is a thought process behind it, somewhere. The action itself is scummy but the thought process (as revealed by hapa in his reply to me) was not. There is nothing wrong with being hesitant about a piece of information you display to the thread. The remaining quotes are so heavily taken out of context and misconstrued that I find it hard to believe that you follow the train of thought you have written. I quite clearly state that no player should go unpushed and many people had already mentioned foolishness by name and directed questions at him. If there was no response what further pressure can you possibly add at that point? The answer is quite clearly none and that is why I find it hard to believe that you would invest so much time into pushing and researching foolishness for 4 posts. Also: There's also the fact he thinks it's fine to pressure sandro but not Foolishness, and doesn't state many reasons for that. From his perspective there should be no difference between sandro and Foolishness (they are 2 lurkers who barely post and nobody knows much about them), however in Holy's posts there is a clear difference between them, where he wants to deflect attention from Foo and into sandro. Your return post stated you would ignore the rest of the thread apart from discussion about marv and foolishness, I simply said that foolishness had not posted but neither had sandroba so I was curious why you had picked one lurker over the other. At what point do I mention pressure on either of them is bad? @Hapa's critique As for Holyflare, I'm leaning scum on him presently. The points highlighting the emotional "oddities" of his case are really good. The strangest thing about his filter for me is how quickly he dropped his tunnel on me. He makes his initial case on me... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=16#318 ...then all it takes is one reply from me... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=21#419 ...and then his suspicions are gone! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=22#427 The lack of any pursuit, or really any confirmation bias whatsoever is strange. It's very uncharacteristic of a townie to give up on a case so easily, and that's seemingly what Holy did. Yet another person misconstruing intentions. There is nowhere in my posts where I have indicated that my suspicions have gone anywhere. I am quite capable of making a train of thought as scum and following it into the ground. I have many games in my profile where you can check this (why has nobody done this yet?). The things people are saying about me are quite odd and are evidence that people have only read the case and not the actual situations around them. For a person that questions everything hapa, why have you not questioned where my read has gone and instead used it as evidence to bolster a completely fallacious case made by gonzaw? | ||
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Holyflare
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Why is everything you say a bastardisation of what is actually written? A player had a mindset that i attributed as a scummy mindset. He revealed his thought process and that was that. Why have you overblown it into something it quite clearly is not?? I hadn't even made my "big" post, and you had already started defending Foo and trying to put attention on sandro. You even go to great lengths to basically try and guess what's on my mind by saying stuff like "Your goal is clearly to lynch a lurker today" when I had said nothing at all basically. You literally answer my own thought pprocess directly after this quote by saying i assumed it was a lurker lynch (you never corrected me AT ALL) so it not illogical for me to then ask why you were focusing on 1 lurker and not the other? | ||
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On January 22 2014 10:02 Hapahauli wrote: Holy, can we start talking about your scumreads? I literally have no idea where you stand on me or anyone else. I would love to do this but it's 1am so i will elaborate on EVERYTHING when i wake up (even if it means knocking out my gf so i can use her pc) | ||
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On January 22 2014 10:17 Hapahauli wrote: You can't take 5 minutes to give us one read? I don't feel comfortable at all just posting names without elaborating the why's. It was originally you and gonzaw though but that has been dropping down and down based on replies. I honestly am very limited on time in general (all my posts are from my phone since the start) so when i have to defend myself the elaborating drops a lot. Promise to do it in the morning though. | ||
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Holyflare
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Either way, I apologise for my lack of playing this game. I fully expected to be able to contribute time but my circumstances changed on the day the game started and so each and every single one of my posts has been posted from my phone, I was just picking up on points that I thought were contradictary and the such, no "aggression" is intended it's just how I post (Hogwarts I got called out for being aggressive as scum so there is no way I would ever try and look like that in a game again as scum). Either way, my initial read was on gonzaw being scummy because of his time allocation, that subsequently changed based on his responses and although I mention the repeated bastardisation and misconstruing of my posts that increasingly (as he kept doing it and still is) looks more and more like a tunneled towny and so I used my time to defend myself from him so as to divulge my thought processes and vindicate myself to the person that I think is towny (from the people that I have focused on). I thought hapa was looking scummy because of his contradictions but his response to me made me back off of that. I can't delve into quotes and things like I normally would but please please look at when gonzaw posted that "case" (that I said was heavily misconstrued) on me. The responses that meekly followed that said "yeh, that's true" and "hmmm yeh I can see that" should be heavily scrutinised as they were, like was just said, not backed up by votes. Like I said at the start, you shouldn't let people who get better later "sandroba AND foolishness (although he has posted now)" sit back, they should be entirely pressured. Sandroba even went so far as to get a good ++ (I think?) from foolishness??? despite his less than 1 page filter with nothing contributary in. Either way, I've asked to be subbed out so have fun. | ||
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Holyflare
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I'm subbing out because I don't have the time to play with my current situation and I can't effectively play in the time constraints I have. You make the argument that I just spent my time defending but I justified why I tried to do that, if I have no time to read filters it should be quite clear why my mindset hasn't evolved. This is your biggest problem this game. You have rationalised me as scum and so your mindset is that everything I do is with the intent of a scummer. However, you don't try and rationalise it as a townie that is under attack and just has no time to play. Don't take my being present as reason for "should be able to contribute", defending takes 0 time at all because I can just tell you my mindset. Either way, if I was scum I wouldn't ask to be subbed because who cares, I die in a game full of good players and get on with my life? I am not allowed to sub till the end of the day and so it is my intention that a player with more time can take my spot and portray my alignment to you far better than me in my current situation. | ||
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 (((( Sorry for the resources you spent looking into me :x! | ||
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On January 23 2014 04:00 kitaman27 wrote: You mentioned that you didn't want to provide reads before being able to elaborate. Was there anyone you had in mind at that point, even if you don't provide reasons? austin, marv, foolishness based on their responses to gonzaw case on me REALLY have to go now | ||
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##gonzaw | ||
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On February 01 2014 10:06 yamato77 wrote: Disappointed that Prom was town. Was reasonably sure before the day Foolish got lynched that Prom and Marv were a team, but I should have known better. I told you ((( | ||
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Holyflare
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On February 03 2014 04:15 gonzaw wrote: Actually HF's conversation with me was basically the scummiest thing he did on D1 (i.e spend all his time talking pointless stuff with me instead of finding scum). But well, your town read on him was understandable. I don't remember why everybody else thought he was town lol. I literally had no time to do anything and that is most likely what I would do for the first part of day 1 if I was town and you were sticking to scum hunting a guy with 4 posts anyway (although not to the same extent). Game was really frustrating for me when I couldn't really spend time reading filters and posting properly +++ For foolishness though, got drawn to my meta hard <3 | ||
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