[I] [S] Shadow Mini Mafia

On January 22 2014 01:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
Morning guys. Marv no, I don't think it's the same kind of Prome that I'm used to seeing. What it reminds me of is that game I was the mayor and lynched the piss out of Prome D1. He was a lurky little shit that game, but I caught him on something very similar to what I noticed this game. Like I think it's awful that I have to ask this, but did you read my post on him?

That being said, I at least dig one of his targets. I asked Foolish about his thoughts on this same matter and what I got is "lol you and Hapa townies" which is definitely NOT what I was after. He answered my question as if he'd read the exchange between us, but left me with a feeling that he hadn't actually read anything at all.

If I see one more person say they're going to ignore my posts, I won't be responsible for the outcome. You have been warned.

On January 21 2014 11:35 Promethelax wrote:
Okay broskis, this is just silly. We know how to start a game and it isn't this Mafia Scum inspired baseless lynches shall we discuss policy? Why yes we shall because you all will actually have to commit to something.

Since we aren't the run of the mill hokey dory TL types I think its time we set a few ground rules: there should be no discussion of policy lynching lurkers. We simply lynch them. If everyone is good enough to be shadowed everyone is good enough to play the game and we cannot tolerate lurkers.

It is my hope that this particular policy doesn't come into play since, obviously, we are the best that TL has so we should play the best as well and lurking simply isn't the best. We are all good enough to carry a town and I would like us all to be that good this game. Play your hearts out gentlemen.

I would also like a non-aggression pact. That is we all agree to play nice since I'd rather like to be good role models for our newbies.

And yes, I know I'm scummy for posting this, does someone want to come out and say it so that I can defend myself and we can move on with this game and make actual cases on each other and find scum.

Unlike WoS I was excited to roll scum in this game, I figured I'd have an excuse to be steamrolled but if I did a good job it would be a huge accomplishment but no, I'm town, I have to figure things out. I would much rather lie to you all but fuck me, I don't get to lie to you. I gotta work for my money.

So get it together boys, we are policy lynching lurkers, we aren't going to be mean to each other and we are going to catch scum. And we'll start with Hapa making a case on me, why? Because its tradition is why.

On January 23 2014 04:29 austinmcc wrote:
PAGING MARV

Small game, not overly themed. You were shot N1 by Sandroba in the game. Scum team was Sandroba/ShiaoPi/?. I was a watcher, watched you N1, saw Sandroba shoot you. On D2 I tried to buddy up to Sandroba rather than dunk him as mafia. This caused some problems later on in the game for me.

Name that game!

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LET US BEGIN TO CHAT! YES? (I will have to pause shortly for an interview thing, but oh well)

Anything OVERTLY scummy from marv, or just the general worry?

I don't share your worry about Foolishness right now, but I do about Sandroba. Working on that, because there are very few scumgames but the town filters I'm reading are much more involved, except generally more involved as far as planning and policy and whatnot is concerned, less him being very involved in reads and discussion (so not perfectly applicable to this game).

The only worry I have on Foolishness is his putting Sandroba up at townie-neutral for getting active, when Sandroba was really just posting on one subject and it wasn't a boatload of new thoughts/info.

Anyway, you should also ask me some questions. I know I only have the one about marv here right now, but poke me!

On January 23 2014 05:16 austinmcc wrote:
Simmer down, Gonzaw

There's a whole heck of a lot of people I haven't mentioned between then and now, he's one of em. That list is what, 2/3 or more of players in the game? Somewhere around there? He's particular in that I mentioned him before, I know. Right now I'm elsewhere.I don't care about them. They don't make him town. I don't think they make him mafia. A couple SUPER OVERTLY trolly posts are posts that I read as "trolly", not as town or scum. I see more meat from scum Foolishness in Parallel Worlds than I do here, have not read Liar Game in years.

I think his long list post is...okay. It's not as pushy as his Parallel Worlds list post, which doesn't count for terribly much. He doesn't blow anyone's socks off with any read, there's nothing damning/sanctifying about anyone that nobody else had seen, which would make the post a little better/worse depending on what he found, but I'm fine with it in general EXCEPT that the section on sandro and I is odd to me. Everyone else has pretty particular reasons, sandro and I are lumped together and I don't really agree with him that sandro had gotten post-happy within the recent pages before Foolishness posted his big thing. See my question to Foolishness about the sandro read in my filter.Some of my thoughts are above. His scumreads are ... convenient? But mostly fine with me. He justifies them, doesn't really push them, oh well. I'm really not concerned there.

His second sizeable post...I don't love? His HolyFlare section is pure mush, maybe the mushiest statement in his two large posts.not really what I would expect from anyone pushing a read, or one of his two lynch candidates. Gonzaw's post on HF good, this point good, HF's defense felt contrived and forced, except he made good points, except he didn't say much, except maybe it's just confirmation bias. That's very very very limp-wristed.

A NUMBER of people posted questions to him concerning his large reads post, and he really only answered about WoS and HF, also don't love that.

So, first big post I'm not scummy on him for. Second big post I don't love as a post, the HF bit is the longest and is pure mush, but...whatever. I'm not seeing Foolishness scum as heavily as you are.No, not wrong. He's got posts that aren't pure troll, although they're just setup chat - + Show Spoiler +

Moreover, that post IS trolly. But look at the followup. He does dick all forever with his marv comment and vote. He doesn't really respond to anything but marv for almost 24 hours until he starts talking with Palmar in more detail (he gives crappy little posts to Keirathi and marv in response, not like his response here). There's a decent amount of posting, even shitty posting, trying to get something done.

Here there's no posting trying to get anything done. His response/explanation post (the second big one), doesn't go anywhere, doesn't push anything, just waffles around. WHICH SOUNDS PARTICULARLY SCUMMY, EH? But in a game where there hasn't been huge pushes on people yet, it looks different enough from the way he was actually trying to do a thing, even lazily trying to do a thing, in that game.I think anyone making a read of those posts is being silly. I don't care if someone starts with a few trolly posts, at all. If those posts tell me ANYTHING important, then I should be examined. Others may get something from them, but I don't at all. To me, they're trolly posts, they don't mean anything, and I disagree that scum Foolishness is a big trollface at the start of games.I don't care at all that someone has a vote on someone he doesn't want to lynch. No. About 3, I think it's telling about OTHERS and not about Foolishness. People who thought Foolishness was cool for his reads, but then haven't gone back to update their reads on Foolishness after saying Prome or HF look better/different/whatever, look slightly worse. Do I know if any of those people exist? No. But you're right that anyone who was weighing Foolishness's reads in his favor OUGHT to be reweighing foolishness if their own reads on Prome/HF/whoever have changed.

Also, what's up with you and chatting? I thought WOS had an obsession with it, but you seem to be OCD about it wtf

On January 22 2014 07:19 Foolishness wrote:
Here's what I think is going on this game.

There are quite a few questionable people in this game, but by eliminating some obvious town players things start to make more sense.

Towniest of towns
Hapa
VE
Kitaman

Hapa is by far the most town person in this game? Why, put simply if you read his filter he is here, he is active and he is pushing pro-town agendas. This is seen because he is generating conversation, trying to organize the town and get everyone on the same page, and questioning suspicious players where appropriate. This is not a matter of debate if you have read the thread.

Kitaman is similar in matter and this has already been brought to light by a few players. Actually when I started reading the game yesterday his posting reminded me a lot of myself. Slight trolly attitude to try to get things moving, but when push came to shove he was there to call people out on their shit. Now, if you want to read into that and say, "But Foolishness, Kitaman is usually a strong analyzer, posting paragraphs of information and analysis about a person's behavior and actions" I got nothing to say back about that yet. Though I'm sure time will confirm what I think here.

The thing with VE is that yes, on his own some of his posts are suspicious. This one in particular made me raise an eyebrow:
+ Show Spoiler +
where the first two paragraphs seem really out of place and forced, though the last two sentences of the post read very town.

However I think if you just read through his filter and analyze it as a whole there's nothing to be afraid of. Is he pushing any sort of mafia agenda? No. Does it feel like he doesn't have the town's best interest in mind? No. Does it feel like he's actually trying to figure things out? Yes.

Now I can see why some people have shed some suspicion on him (unlike anyone calling Hapa or Kita mafia), but he just does not feel mafia, and he's definitely interested in the game.

Questionable players
Austin
sandroba

marvellosity
Holyflare
Gonzaw

This is roughly in order of most to least town. Austin and sandroba might as well be afk until 3 pages ago, but since coming to the thread both have had strong appearances. I'm okay with them right now because they have brought things to the thread, and it is also obvious that if they continue their activity then they are town. If they keep going afk for long periods of time then start to worry. But I don't feel like that will happen.

The following 3 people are all in the ? category. Marvellosity and Holyflare in particular because for all that they have said I don't feel they have really contributed much. Even as I'm writing this I'm thinking back, "what has marvellosity or holyflare done this game", and I cannot remember a single post they have made. That's a bad sign. Anything mafia indicative off the bat? No so much, but then seem to be here without actually being here.

Gonzaw is only questionable and not mafia because of his recent vote on me. As kitaman properly pointed out, gonzaw brought up a lot of new information about the case on me. That's good and productive. But as he also pointed out, gonzaw just kinda did nothing with it. "Oh here you go I did some research, now don't mind me anymore let me go be trolly and lurk some more" is that kinda vibe I got from that.

mafia
Promethelax
WaveOfShadow

I will go into a little more detail here.

What about this post is good? He says generic things that anybody can say. Also the "Let's do something" seems incredibly forced. What does he hope to accomplish by saying that? I don't know (most likely he's mafia) and it feels like he's trying very hard to sound like he's vested in the game (when all he would have to do is just post whatever his thoughts are).

And then there's this post as well.

Which fails to do nothing but ask more questions of which he never followed through on (neither of them really followed through on to be honest), when he could do have done something like actively push Promethelax to say something of substance.

The thing about Promethelax is that his first post is a big pile of words and nobody said anything about it besides WoS which was just a passing remark. Here's the post again:
+ Show Spoiler +
Promethelax even admits that his post is awful and that we should call him out on it. Sounds great to me! This kinda bait is definitely a mafia trait and if he thinks he's posting bad then we should definitely lynch him for it. The reason being, if he knows his post his bad why is he making it in the first place? His initial post accomplishes nothing and says nothing and only adds fluff to the thread. I am also bothered by his most recent thread post:


Because all his reads feel very convenient. There is nothing in his filter that gives us new information or his original thoughts.

I'm leaving my vote where it is for now, honestly Promethelax is the best lynch right now because the case on him is the strongest, but I need to hear opinions on WaveOfShadow while we have the time.

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Who we are lynching today: Promethelax, WaveOfShadow.

If they died probably not a huge loss: marvellosity, HolyFlare, Gonzaw

Everyone else deserves to live another day at the least.

On January 21 2014 23:20 Holyflare wrote:


Well I'm sorry if it comes across as antagonism. I just find it odd that your contribution in your work time would be to mention someone that has little to no posts that are suspicious as hell rather than read the rest of the thread and portray your fresh ideas when you are home. I will take a step back and let you do your thing though. I have yet to play with everyone here so will learn your meta eventually.

On January 22 2014 06:13 Holyflare wrote:


I do not want to participate in a discussion based on a person with 4 posts, it is futile. Foolishness has posted nothing and gonzaw is spending his entire time focusing on that person. I want to know what Gonzaw is like in other games, does he tunnel like that, does he declare he is not reading the thread till he gets home only to still spend his time on futile research? These are all questions I would like to know the answers to based on people's previous games with him. Just because he has put effort in and has posted does not make him towny. I asked that question specifically to kita because I think me and him are on the same wavelength (he asked gonzaw how long it took him to do the foolishness meta post - what I assumed to be seeing how he was allocating time) and I would like him to elaborate on his thoughts.

I have no attitude towards foolishness other than my dislike for his unexplained reads. It's not scummy, it's not towny, I want to know his reasonings before I take my read further. Could he be scum? Yes. Could he be town? Yes. I do not know and cannot know until he posts, so of course my attitude to him would be a net null read.

On January 25 2014 04:24 Toadesstern wrote:

No idea, I haven't read a single post from Holyflare so no idea if his accusations on my predecessor as you coined it so nicely make sense, btw also something WoS mentioned about me how I kept the reads from Holy... I didn't even know that lol

I did ignore it in general as I was seeing the same thing from foolishness about Sandro and it was so extreme that I just thought it has to be an exaggeration until austin pointed out that is indeed weird. He has been on Sandro for a while, called him mafia and suddendly started calling the lynch bad and wasn't willing to vote him. Haven't put too much thought into it. I had to catch up, I had to reread a bunch and as stupid as this situation may be I just can't catch up, reread and at the same time put the same amount of time into reading yet other filters as you guys are doing right now. I have to make this work somehow and I start out with what's #1 on my priority list. Just saying because you still don't seem to understand the situation I'm in. Yes a bunch of stuff I'm going to say will be less in detail than stuff you do and I don't have the time to do proper research like you guys. That's to be expected and there's nothing I can do about that. Yes I'm slightly angry about the fact that you've basicly called me out about not reading carefully enough...

Yeah I'm explaining it from the Sandro <-> Foolish perspective but it seems to be the same thing you're getting at? Because like I said I haven't read Holy's posts.

On January 25 2014 04:36 Toadesstern wrote:


the thing is, if foolishness is mafia that explains why he didn't vote Sandro despite being a very shady explanation. If Sandro and Foolish are mafia together Foolish has nothing to lose, it's either him or Sandro to get lynched, might as well just do nothing and hope that in the confusion of voteswitches Prome (assuming he's town) gets into a more favoreable position to be lynched.

If Prom however is mafia as well, so saying it's Sand - Foolish - Prom, that unwillingness from Foolish to vote Sand makes no sense whatsoever. He has nothing to get out of not voting Sand except for a 1-1 trade with Sand which doesn't change a thing for him. Voting Sand however gives him the chance to get some towncred out of it and he WAS around, he could have certaintly voted Sand.

It just doesn't make sense if Prom and Foolish are both mafia.

On January 23 2014 09:04 Foolishness wrote:

I don't think that's actually possible. Look at the order of events.

Starting at this point where there are 6 votes on me and 3 on Promethelax (keep in mind this is 12 minutes before the deadline):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137&currentpage=41#820

The six votes on me are (in order of when they occurred): VisceraEyes, gonzaw, WaveofShadow, Promethelax, marvellosity, Hapahauli.

Now there is definitely some analysis to be done on how these votes accumulated on me but I will save that for later.

At this point gonzaw started the switch on sandroba. Austin immediately joined in. Now only gonzaw was voting on me so I'm still winning by a landslide. It's possible that they did this thinking there is no way a bandwagon on sandroba would start, but I highly doubt they would have that attitude. That is, entertain the thought for a second that gonzaw/Austin are actually mafia. They could just hammer the vote on me to ensure a town lynch (incredibly easy for gonzaw to do, Austin could just toss his vote on Promethelax or somewhere else). But that didn't happen.

Then marvellosity switches his vote as well. At this point I have 4 votes and Promethelax and sandroba both have 3.

Hapa and Promethelax also follow shortly after.

It's definitely clear that the switch to sandroba was started and enforced by towns. This was not mafia bussing each other. The big question to answer here is: what reason would mafia have for switching off of me onto sandroba? If I'm town, there's definitely no reason to. I'm hovering around 50% of votes (HolyFlare's vote isn't going to count), it'd be so easy to just ensure that I got voted. The only scenario where the mafia would have reason to switch is if I'm also mafia (which isn't true). But that scenario, however absurd, would be reasonable, thinking that I'm more valuable to the mafia than sandroba is at this point.

Thus I am in the belief that the votes on sandroba were mostly, if not 100%, town. Including my top suspect Promethelax. This seems to make a lot more sense given how that went down.

What does this all mean? Mafia could have ensured I was lynched if they were on the vote switch, so why bother vote switching in the first place? No, mafia did not vote switch. What's more likely is that the mafia were voting for me but not on the switch (VE, WoS) or the mafia were all voting for Promethelax (me, sandroba, kitaman). Note that kitaman was going against sandroba during day 1.

Remember that assuming Promethelax is town, mafia were in a great position at the end of the day. Town Foolishness has 6 votes and the runner up at 3 votes is also town. This is great for them cause they get to decide who's getting lynched. If I'm mafia why is there not more votes on Promethelax and where is my team to defend me? Sure I got kitaman pushing for Promethelax but I was in a desperate situation there. Things wouldn't have unfolded the way they did if that was the case.

So instead this means that mafia were likely already voting for me. But they wouldn't want to go with the vote switch since that was on a mafia. VE is the only person that fits this bill since he was strangely absent during lynch time (and he posted 15 minutes after the lynch). WoS would be gone but I did feel his vote on me was questionable (will look into that later don't worry). Mafia were voting for me and were sitting comfortably, and when a vote switch happened they weren't around for it.

On January 24 2014 04:52 Foolishness wrote:

I don't see any reason why all five of the people on sandroba aren't exempt. Yes I know what I said about marvellosity yesterday and that I would lynch him, but as I pointed out in my previous post here it doesn't seem likely for mafia to hop aboard the sandroba bandwagon. Really the most likely scenario of this happening is the mafia bus of sandroba, and given by the votes and who was voting that would probably mean that I'm mafia as well.

I suggest reading my post I linked above again because based on the timestamps and who was voting and why I think it's clear that everyone on sandroba is town (as unlikely as that sounds in terms of raw numbers). Any of the people that switched had good reason to keep their vote on me. Moreso, as I pointed out, it is likely that Promethelax is town because mafia were sitting good with myself being the top lynch and second in line (Promethelax) also a town lynch.

The overall point here is that the sandroba bandwagon was not initiated by mafia nor exacerbated by mafia. Mafia were sitting pretty and never expected that sort of switch to happen in the last 10 minutes. Furthermore the votes on sandroba were so close (1 minute apart for the last two) that it's very unlikely Promethelax was like, "oh I can vote for my mafia scumbuddy to gain credibility cause he already has the most votes". No, things happened too fast for it to be planned out like that. No scum would have moved to him at the start, no scum would have moved to him during the middle, and no scum would move to him at the end.

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Based on what happened, I suggest we look at WoS as well as VE. I like the arguments brought up against VE so far and I think a lot of the same thing can be applied to WoS as well. In particular lazily throwing his vote down on me. Here are his posts about me after I started posting in the second half of the day up to the point where he voted for me and left.






What is disturbing about this is his wishy-washy behavior about me. He says he doesn't agree with my case on Promethelax, and that's fine in itself, and he also says he wants to "lynch me less". Then before voting for me says that my answers were "good enough" and that they "fit for a lack of a better term", and that it's my "early play that doesn't make sense to me". If my answers are fitting and good enough why are you voting for me? Just cause you don't agree with me on a person being mafia does not make me mafia. I was actually really surprised when he dropped his vote on me, who tells someone that they have good answers but they are still lynching them?

What is also interesting is that he's entirely sheeping a read and admitting to it. Admitting to sheeping a read does not exempt you from sheeping a read. Does it seem like he has his own opinion on the matter? Does it seem like he has an idea of who to vote for? No. Look through his posts, he never really accuses anyone, and never says that he thinks person X would be a good lynch (as I said above, he never said that directly about me either). He dances around a lot of people, myself, marvellosity, Promethelax, etc.

Sure, he threw his vote down and knew he wasn't going to be here before the deadline, and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is that he had no opinion on who should be lynched before the vote. Also his vote started a landslide, since there were already 2 votes on me, and at the time the next closest persons had 1 vote. This is a critical vote because it started the pile up on me, and when people came back and saw this they started piling on (even though those people piling on are likely town cause they all jumped ship to sandroba).

On January 25 2014 09:35 Foolishness wrote:

This is from a while ago, but his posts I saw when I made that post were:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137&currentpage=20#381
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137&currentpage=21#408

And I thought these were fine at the time. A lot of you seem to think that I'm doing things 12 hours after they happened when in reality it's been a lot closer. I saw sandroba and austin both come to the thread and start posting, and I didn't post long after that (a few hours at most). As I said, my mindset was, "well they've been kinda afk so far, but as long as they keep posting I don't have an overwhelming reason to suspect them". Look at my list where I put austin and sandroba in the same category; this is exactly why.

Gonzaw kinda brought this up here but let's go through these scenarios cause it's important.

Scenario 1
Foolishness is mafia
Promethelax is mafia

Yes, after seeing that my case on WoS during day 1 didn't have as much merit as I thought at the time, I immediately decided to bus my own teammate. Not only that but I was also under scrutiny in the thread, why would I bring attention to another mafia member when I can push a case on someone else (HolyFlare? Marv maybe?). Better for me to just keep pushing on WoS or pick a new target, no sense is putting two mafia members under scrutiny on day 1.

Speaking of HolyFlare, this is off topic from my current explanation but when I went back later on and reread his posts I thought he might be town. I don't even remember why but that's what I thought. I don't like reading into people getting replaced out so I focused my attention elsewhere. If HolyFlare is town I expect Toad to be able to prove it to us sooner and not later. And by sooner I mean end of night 2 at the absolute latest.

Secnario 2
Foolishness is Mafia
Promethelax is town

This is the only scenario out of the three that the town should be worried about as I didn't want to switch to sandroba and even said so straight up (the reason I didn't want to was because I saw Marv move his vote and I was really sketchy about him at the time. I didn't like what I was seeing last minute and I got super scared it was just town derp switching onto another town). But as I pointed out in my earlier posts what is the mafia doing the entirety of day 1 when I'm accumulating votes? As gonzaw pointed out this would only make sense if the entire mafia team (but myself) is afk (so like, HolyFlare also mafia).

Furthermore, if I'm mafia and Promethelax is town, then wtf is up with sandroba's vote 30 minutes before the deadline? His post wasn't a mafia post trying to save his buddy, that was a mafia pushing what he perceived to be a safe lynch to make his team look pretty for the future days after I flip town or Promethelax flips town.

I think it is even more apparent through the entirety of day 1 as a whole. Where is my mafia team to save me? Are they just afk (we all know mafia games on TL are never that easy)? The only one trying to deflect votes off of me was me. Sure, kitaman and austin both said I was town, but there was never a hard push. It seemed like their attitude was, "yeah Foolishness is town I'm sure, but I got nothing better to propose". Kitaman's push on Promethelax was mediocre at best (in terms of aggressiveness, not content). I was 100% on my own for all of day 1.

Scenario 3
Foolishness is Town
Promethelax is mafia

Why the hell did sandroba push onto Promethelax when he could have easily just been like, "yo guys I've caught Foolishness as mafia in three separate games on day 1/2, this is a free town lynch"? Doesn't make sense.

Secnario 4
Foolishness is Town
Promethelax is Town

I brought this up before, but go back and read sandroba's case on Promethelax. After sandroba's vote both Promethelax and I had 3 votes apiece (if I'm not mistaken here). Mafia were very very very happy with the votes at this time. Town Foolishness is under scrutiny and about to get lynched, and second in line is another town who Foolishness (apparently well-known scumhunter) is 100% convinced is mafia. Wow find me a happier mafia team on day 1 in a normal or all-vanilla game. Sandroba was not throwing his vote down to save someone or push for any lynch. Mafia were happy with who was getting lynched that day and there was no need to do anything about it.

THIS NEXT PARAGRAPH IS VERY IMPORTANT
Look at this from sandroba's point of view in this scenario. The only people with votes are two townies. He drops his vote on Promethelax with the following mindset. "Let's say Foolishness gets lynched. Sweet, I just push on Promethelax the following day and tell the town, 'yeah guys you fucked that up, Foolishness is best scum-hunter NA we gotta lynch Promethelax now'. Let's say Promethelax gets lynched. Sweet, I just admit my mistake and push Foolishness the following day and tell the town, 'yeah damn sorry about that read, this guy Foolishness is definitely mafia and 100% misled the town into a bad lynch. Many people said that lynch was bad from the beginning we should never have listened to Foolishness'". No matter who got lynched sandroba was in a great position, that is until he himself got lynched instead.

Sandroba's vote was not a push to get the town to do something. No, it was lazily cast knowing that both suspects were town and he could ride it through the next day.

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THIS SHOWS THAT PROMETHELAX IS TOWN
Look at all four above scenarios. Scenario 3 makes the least amount of sense cause then sandroba's vote is an awful mistake. Scenario 1 doesn't make sense cause that means I bussed my own teammate (when I could have easily gone after WoS from the start or anyone else) and oh btw also means Promethelax bussed sandroba last minute (keep in mind him and Hapa voted 1 minute apart so in essence they both hammered that vote).

The remaining two scenarios both have Promethelax as town. Because he is. Regardless of what you think of me as well, though the above and my earlier posts should prove my innocence as well.

If you guys wanna spend 9 hours going down the conspiracy theory hole then cool story bro. Or you can just look at the facts and deduce the following:

Town wins if WaveOfShadow, VisceraEyes, Kitaman, and Toad all die.

---

Also my time is very limited today and tomorrow but I will try to be here when I can.

On January 26 2014 10:01 Foolishness wrote:

It's certainly possible scum Wave is buddying up to VE. Why? Because he knows that the remaining 2 mafia (himself and whoever) is in the group of four that I proposed. What is his options as mafia after I come in and demonstrate it's very unlikely town is on the sandroba vote? First off, he (or his buddy or both) have to run interference on me to make sure I don't organize the town and figure them out. That means pressuring me, pissing me off so I can't analyze accurately, and making sure my time is wasted responding to thread questions about my actions instead of reading filters and looking at the game.

And speaking of that, if you ask where my ten page analysis post that you think indicates I'm town is (cause somehow in your mind this is the only way you are able to read me...) it's just as much your fault as it is mine? Why? Because you are demanding answers of me because of paranoia and some of my actions might not make sense to you. I am choosing to spend what time I have responding to you because I believe it is more important to convince the town that I am town instead of just ignoring you guys. I say this because I firmly believe that the 5 people who voted for sandroba are town (and I also think time will confirm this suspicion as well). And I believe that once I am in the clear the path to victory is simple.

Furthermore, you are asking me a lot of questions and at some point you need to make up your mind. Because this cannot and will not continue. We will be running in circles with these questions instead of doing something productive, sooner or later we will be distracting the town. Eventually we're both going to get frustrated at each other (or someone else will get frustrated) and we will start yelling. And this is exactly what the mafia want. They want me getting pissed off at you so I get mislynched, and they want you paranoid at everyone because that's what they need in order to win at this point. You and I and everyone else all know this. I'm not going to let the mafia control my thoughts and you should do the same.
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That was a long tangent. But second, they need 3 mislynches in order to win the game, which means they need to establish themselves as town and find someway to gain town credibility while ensuring that the towns in the group of 4 (or 5 if you include me) get lynched. Of course the mafia can call someone else in the group town, and of course they will call others in the group mafia. They need to push whoever is the easiest lynches and make the town paranoid of me so I get mislynched as well. On the off chance there is a mafia voting for sandroba they need to keep up activity over the remaining days otherwise we will get suspicious of them. There's no reason why a mafia WoS wouldn't call VE town, and there's also no reason why a mafia WoS wouldn't call VE mafia. They can play it either way and at this point they could probably even bus each other.

So no, I don't read into the fact that WoS has been defending VE. Does it make WoS slightly more town? Sure. But the fact that he defended him means nothing, it's how he defended him. I read his initial case on why VE is town and I felt it was misleading and had an agenda behind it.

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These posts by HolyFlare are what irked me
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Because I felt like he was dodging questions and not contributing to the conversation. For some questions his response was just, "got nothing cause I don't know this guy" and I did not feel like he cared about this game.

Reading through Toad's filter it actually seems like he's making a genuine effort to figure out the game. I really like some of his posts here:
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Why? Because it shows a townie mindset as he is trying to make connections between possible suspects and figure out what's going on. He's eliminating possibilities to determine who is likely town based on sandroba connections.

I'm not really sure why he went against that and started calling me mafia. Well, I see his reasons for doing so but to go against his earlier reasoning does seem a bit out of place considering it was at a time when the thread was giving me a bunch of heat. Toad, do you not believe in any of those posts you wrote before?

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Also, did I say that HolyFlare was my top scumread? During day 1 WoS was my top town read until he and others convinced me that I was wrong, and then Promethelax was my top read (hence the case on him and voting him). After the flip and I analyzed the votes WoS was my top read (and still is).

On January 21 2014 22:05 Holyflare wrote:


You used a post from a player that has had 0 contribution to the game as a platform for you to further your paradigm of VE. Not only is that strange but you do not question HOW he could have those reads (something you absolutely should because how else do you learn about another player's mindset?) The only thing you question is his read on wave. You should absolutely not be happy when someone calls you or someone else town for no reasoning and should be questioning it as you have been questioning mostly everything for the entirety of the game.

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As for the rest of the thread:





I don't understand why this conversation was ended around here. We absolutely should be pushing everyone and not letting them ignore posts and accusations directed at them. It's a team game where we have to demonstrate our townieness to each other. Why should we let a player not participate in the game just because he gets better later when in fact we have the potential to learn more about his alignment today? This sentiment was echoed by hapa BUT THEN TOTALLY CONTRADICTED AS WELL.





I don't understand the mindset behind this. You suggest we find his alignment by way of pressure but then give into the sentiment of other players of which you do not know the alignment of and say that we should not pressure him because he won't respond instead of taking the initiative of your confirmed alignment to yourself and pressuring sandroba yourself. This isn't something a townie mindset does at all. I'm interested to hear your reasoning before I put my vote down on you though because there's no reason being hasty.

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That being said the thing that stuck out to me the most was VE's posts and vote on Prome. I actually agree with much of what he has said and I do not get the motive behind happa's line of questioning.

Hapa mentioned:



Why do you assume that it is retroactive justification instead of new evidence coming to light after a troll vote? What he was saying made sense and prome's opening post seemed like it was pre-written before he even read any of the game. I'll get into this later when I have the time and get back but for now I'll leave you to talk about what i've said above.

On January 23 2014 03:58 Holyflare wrote:
it's quite simple, i don't need to make excuses. If you read my previous games like I told you to and you quite clearly haven't you'd know the length I'd go to as either alignment to make cases and read filters.

I'm subbing out because I don't have the time to play with my current situation and I can't effectively play in the time constraints I have. You make the argument that I just spent my time defending but I justified why I tried to do that, if I have no time to read filters it should be quite clear why my mindset hasn't evolved. This is your biggest problem this game. You have rationalised me as scum and so your mindset is that everything I do is with the intent of a scummer. However, you don't try and rationalise it as a townie that is under attack and just has no time to play. Don't take my being present as reason for "should be able to contribute", defending takes 0 time at all because I can just tell you my mindset.

Either way, if I was scum I wouldn't ask to be subbed because who cares, I die in a game full of good players and get on with my life? I am not allowed to sub till the end of the day and so it is my intention that a player with more time can take my spot and portray my alignment to you far better than me in my current situation.

On June 03 2012 10:59 Toadesstern wrote:


Here's why:


I consider that mafia agenda. "It is very important for town that we know what role we give to eliminate confusion"? Yeah we eliminate mafia confusion by telling them what they'll get so they can counter pick,





That's a lot of people he's willing to lynch without saying a thing about them except for wbg. The "case" on wbg was "WBG hasn't posted, therefore he has to be mafia because he doesn't care about the game" while at least half the players in this game had very few posts at that time. The rest is a bunch of mentions without actually saying why and I already said what I think about stuff like that:
Looks like people testing watertemperature with their toes to check out what can get momentum without doing something themselves.
Furthermore Navilus apparently was on his radar for not posting a lot, just like risk yet later on he says Nav not posting is a sign for townieness? Will come to that next but that's really odd.


Navilus defense #1
The reasoning here basicly is: "He never played mafia before. I think he would know better than to hide like that with only 2 posts."
I'd consider that a contradiction. Everyone knows people who play mafia for the first time and what's the most frequent mistake those people make? They're not posting because they're scared and trying to hide to hard. At least that's how I have seen most people play their first time game as mafia. This defense makes no sense from a townie point of view no matter who nav was talking about in his two posts.


Navilus defense #2
Again. He says that first time scums mosty try not to stick out, as in they usually want to hide, yet he says "he absolutely knows how to do this better than this". How in the world do you know he can do better than this if he never played mafia before? How do you know he's not scared to post like most mafias are in their first game?
Again, this defense makes so sense from a town point of view.


Remember his posts from earlier? Sure wbg is not backing up a thing but he's giving his basic thoughts. Now look back a bit and check out the posts prplhz did when he wanted to hear oppinions / accused people. He said nothing, he simply mentioned the names except for the WBG "case".
That's as hypocritical as it can get.



Probably the weakest explanation for a vote I've ever seen. "sup guys. THAT GUY IS TOWN SHUT UP.... Oh, I guess he hasn't said he's sorry for being afk so long. Probably means he's mafia"

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Fancy conclusion:

• Prplhz defending Nav was REALLY odd and I can't imagine someone making arguments like that from a town perspective. Yeah I know I used to use arguments like that as well. L comes to mind where I said something along the lines of "Palmar looks way to scummy to be scum, something's wrong here" but that's because the guy is called Palmar and not Nav. We're talking about some guy who never played mafia before and Prplhz defends him on the basis of "the guy would play better as mafia because he hasn't ever played mafia before"...
  
• Prplhz is testing grounds before saying something all the time. He keeps asking people "what do you think about X, Y or Z?" and never says something himself and something like 30 hours later he picks one guy he feels comfortable to push and votes him with 3 lines of explanation.
  
• The voteswitch is horrible. The reasoning, as already mentioning is the weakest I've ever seen and I'd say he did that because that way he can say "sup guys, I voted him to secure a lynch but didn't want to. Btw TOLD YA HE'S TOWN" for towncred.

Lynch Prplhz please, thanks.

On January 27 2014 12:55 kitaman27 wrote:


Nope, mostly sharing where I'm at internally. I'm still thinking he is mafia, but I'm probably down to 70/30, where as I was like 90/10 previously, though I suppose I just completely made up those numbers. I want to make sure he is the best lynch before committing to him.



I really wish I had thought to look at how he handles high pressure situations to draw the comparison to day one. bah. Maybe I'll take a look again with this in mind, but it's tough to warrant using the time that way if I'm not getting much return. I don't want to get to the point where I'm spending so much time that this game isn't fun anymore. Database shows 0/19 for town lynches.