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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437262
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 08:18 GMT
#1285
On November 23 2013 16:23 Onegu wrote:
Mocsta you habe played multiple games with him why all of a sudden do you want to policy lynch him this game?

Why is this relevant?
My explanations are in the filter; I also suspect, that whatever I answer:

(A) you won't believe me;
(B) you will still think I am scummy.

Seriously Onegu, make your case and then realise that this game requires a majority to lynch.
You won't get a majority to lynch me --> which means you efforts on me are completely wasted --> Feigning contribution.

I wanted Rayn lynched not because at the end i thought he was scummy; but because *I* thought that he would prevent town securing a majority lynch in the future cycles.

I don't care whether the observers think that is a terrible decision because they are not playing in this game.
In the situation: this was the decision I thought was best for town.
I did not, nor do I have the means to force anyone to vote. Realise that enough people agreed with this to secure a Rayn lynch.
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 08:26 GMT
#1289
On November 23 2013 16:48 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2013 16:47 Onegu wrote:
Nor did you ask them questions for when they came back, you didnt mention them at all.

At least I participated in the discussion.

Corazon,
Please listen carefully - I mean the below respectfully.

You are acting like Rayn last cycle - If someone mentions your name negatively, you bark back.
This is forum mafia, and pressure is a part of the game. We all have reasons to pressure both our scum reads and our town reads. There is no such thing as confirmed, unless its mod-related.

People have a right to query your actions without receiving ad-hominems/denigration in return.




That aside:
Why do you not want to join my vote on jampidampi?





Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 08:35 GMT
#1291
On November 23 2013 17:23 Aquanim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2013 16:58 thrawn2112 wrote:
Aqua, Rean is town. I just finished rereading his filter, paying close attention to the parts where he is being pressured. Much of it reads as extremely genuine.

On November 22 2013 11:52 Rean wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 22 2013 02:37 Mocsta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2013 02:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
No actually this is the best way to go:

##Unvote:
##Vote: raynpelikoneet


This proves Mocsta and Bereft are scum. 2 scum for 1 town is a good trade.
I'll make a case on the third one near deadline. I gotta go move my little brother now. cya later.

God your annoying...

I asked the question because I am in a headspace where I can look at you without emotion.
I am trying to figure out the motives for your continued trolling since your "confrontation" vote.

Considering a majority hasn't been reached & people reading (Onegu/jampi) haven't voted - you are not under a *great* deal of pressure.

As town, under thread of a mislynch: I would expect you to pull the finger out and start producing cases.

You already said you don't want me dead; yet keep going out of your way to antagonise me.
Unless you think I am scum, I don't see how your actions can line up with a town mentality.


Small tidbit, whilst looking for Rayn in the TL db to check mislynch history, i saw Rean:

Insane Mafia 2 Town Police Tough Guy Killed Night 2
TL Mafia XXXVIII Town Vanilla Town Killed Night 3
Sleeper Cell Mafia Mafia Sleeper Agent Modkilled Day 1
Pick Their Power Mafia Town Psychic Survived

I know Sleepcell is from 2011 but check teh filter
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210416&user=Rean&view=all
He has like 2 posts, but they are SO aggressive.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227186&user=Rean&view=all
In Pick Their Poewr he is quite casual and short posts.


Rean gameplay doesnt really fit into either of those filters + its from 2011 and things change.
BUT, what i do think is that it shows quite clearly his mentality when scum.

Hesistant to talk, and high-strung/angry.

I think Rean is probably town.


Sorry everyone for not participating at all today but my head is fucking killing me atm and trying to read the thread isnt working at all ._. made it to page 41 so far and gonna stop for today because i just cant focus at all, but wanted to comment on mocsta mentioning old games:

I cant remember why but I know I was so frustrated from RL issues during the sleeper cell game that I didnt focus on it at all and the few posts I made were total shit. I got modkilled for lack of voting and banned for it and I totally deserved it and sat out the bans. You probably shouldn't be using it for meta purposes.

going to sleep now, hopefully i'll feel better tomorrow.


I don't know why a scum player would post this. What would scum rean be trying to accomplish here? The rayn mislynch, or no-lynch, both of which suit scum's purposes, was progressing along just fine. Why wouldn't he sit back and post nothing? Entering the thread with an excuse post with 8 minutes left until a very controversial lynch can only possibly get everyone's attention. People were desperately looking to either find more rayn voters or to find an alternate target. Rean was already well on track to being lynched earlier... surely he would have known not make that post.

Suppose Rean is a scum player with a headache. (I reckon playing scum would give me a headache.) If he'd posted absolutely nothing in that time period he'd look awful now - he'd have completely dodged all discussion about the Rayn lynch, whereas now he at least has an excuse for not having argued one way or another there.

I don't think that he took much of a risk of getting lynched by posting that - that post may attract some attention to him but it hardly makes him look so instantly scummy that he's liable to go from 0 to 7 votes in less than 10 minutes.

The replies he makes when he's pressured by Rayn don't look scummy as such to me, but I don't see anything particularly genuine about them myself either. If you can explain this further I might understand better.

I just can't get past the fact that so very, very little of Rean's filter is him contributing on his own initiative - he's had to be prodded for almost everything he's said all game, and I don't see any insights or evidence of serious analytical thought in the answers he has provided. If he's town I am hoping my vote on him will incite him to perform better in this regard.

I agree with you that Jampidampi's contributions this game have been entirely underwhelming. If the Rean wagon doesn't fly I'm willing to join you on Jampidampi. For the moment though I'm happier where I am.

Also, I'm concerned that if we lynch Jampidampi and he flips town we will have learned almost nothing (hell we won't learn much if he flips scum), whereas if Rean flips town we will at least learn what alignment one of the main wagons of D1 was directed at. This extends to even discussion of their lynches - there's honestly not much to talk about re. a Jampi lynch.
In the above, I am reading a lot about poor play.

- Provides an excuse to not join an important discussion
- Doesn't "feel" genuine
- Doesn't contribute on his own initiative

What I am not reading is why any of this is scum-motive indicative.

Townies have always been guilty for poor play, and plenty of townies will not contribute until asked/pressured.
80/20 rule stands tall.

I must say that this response is *very* underwhelming.
This is exacerbated due to you replying in order to reason why REan is scummy.
Your objective was not achieved - not even remotely.

You are out of my "The Good" bracket Aquanim.
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 08:39 GMT
#1293
On November 23 2013 17:30 Onegu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2013 17:18 Mocsta wrote:
On November 23 2013 16:23 Onegu wrote:
Mocsta you habe played multiple games with him why all of a sudden do you want to policy lynch him this game?

Why is this relevant?
My explanations are in the filter; I also suspect, that whatever I answer:

(A) you won't believe me;
(B) you will still think I am scummy.

Seriously Onegu, make your case and then realise that this game requires a majority to lynch.
You won't get a majority to lynch me --> which means you efforts on me are completely wasted --> Feigning contribution.

I wanted Rayn lynched not because at the end i thought he was scummy; but because *I* thought that he would prevent town securing a majority lynch in the future cycles.

I don't care whether the observers think that is a terrible decision because they are not playing in this game.
In the situation: this was the decision I thought was best for town.
I did not, nor do I have the means to force anyone to vote. Realise that enough people agreed with this to secure a Rayn lynch.



Since when is makeing a case on someone I find scummy to be a waste if I am town, I fully expect scum to push my lynch today. Then when I flip my case wont be wasted ie people see Im town and look at my scum reads, and since we will have two town lynched and no nk and those two town have the same reads then the rest of the town should pay attention to that.

Also Ill look for it in your filter but if I dont find why you say this game is differnt Ill be very disapoint you didnt answer my question because I will a) find it scummy or b) not believe you, because if its legit, no your prolly right im fairly hard tunneled on you, but maybe some other people that would believe you and find my question valid.
You are hard tunneled, because I answered your question in my reply.
I was stating that the same response in is my filter.

You said scum will be pushing you this cycle.
As far as I know, the only person with an agenda to come after you *solely* is Sciberbia.

Do you have a updated opinion on Scibs?
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 08:42 GMT
#1294
On November 23 2013 17:38 Onegu wrote:
Also a lurker lynch is terrible today mocsta, it gives zero info like aqua said, my lynch is better than his for figureing this game out. But we should lynch mocsta or bereft. Om working on it I swear. Waiting on my CoCoIchibanya now, mmmm so tasty.
Why are you discredting what I am doing as a lurker lynch.

It certainly is not.

I have issues with jampidampi that I have explained numerous times. I want to see answers.
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 22:55 GMT
#1351
On November 23 2013 23:21 sciberbia wrote:
@Onegu
I'm unconvinced by your case on Bereft. Here are a few problems I see with it. Convince me I'm wrong.


In the post where you made a case on Mocsta, you quoted Mocsta's case on Cora, but the quoting was messed up so I assume Bereft must have read it as YOUR case on Cora with a case on Mocsta tacked on the end. I guess this proves that he wasn't reading very closely, but I don't see how this makes him scum. Your post was hard to follow. He basically said that he couldn't understand what you were talking about at all so he probably only skimmed it and assumed it was your case + vote on Cora.

It's not true that he never mentions Rean again. He has mentioned rean as someone we should consider lynching today. I don't blame him for not saying more about rean as rean has literally not been posting so it's hard to talk about him. I just went through Rean's filter for Aquanim and I had trouble finding things that weren't already beaten to death.

Show nested quote +
On November 23 2013 22:31 Onegu wrote:
And I hate this post he tunneled rayn the entire time, gives reasons why he was ok to lynch him even if he wasnt scum, then says yeah hindsight it was a bad lynch.

This would be a valid point if the bolded were true, but I don't think it is. Bereft never said lynching a town rayn would be good for town, as far as I can recall.
Onto p 67

I've read this Onegu cas on Bereft a few times.

A couple things
(1) I'm leaning towards town being Onegu,
a. I've never seen a scum Onegu make a case
b. Even though its poorly written, I can see understand what he is fixated on.

Scibs, I actually disagree with your point of view regarding the interpretation of Oengu original Mocsta case.

Yes, it was poorly written and extremely easy to skim over and misinterpret.
However, the issue is that Bereft decided to analyse that post in order to give a town read on somebody.
Do you not find it odd that someone would only "skim/barely read" a post in order to give out such an important read.
Consider further that this was the most important content in Onegu filter at the time.

Onegu has convinced me enough to look into Bereft filter and make up my own mind.

Obviously will do that once I'm finished catching up.
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 23:03 GMT
#1352
On November 24 2013 07:28 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2013 07:25 Bereft wrote:
really? i must have missed it so can you quote the post?

you were debating before whether scum would rather have rayn alive or dead. what did you conclude and how does conclusion tie in with your reads? i was under the impression you thought they would like to keep him alive so they would almost all be off the rayn train.

do you really think JJD is scum or are you just pissed off with him?

i take it currently your scum reads are HF, onegu, and...? if the scum team is HF, onegu, and X, why would they hold back their NK and be confident enough of a mislynch as you stated earlier? onegu is 1 of the front runners for d2 lynch and HF for d3 (in my head at least).

To be honest I don't really care about what I said. People are going to find a way to twist it to look scummy.
I don't like a post from JJD but I don't think he's scum but I do think he's scum but I'm not going to vote for him and now I'm just rambling on and shitting up the thread and I don't really care and I don't really care and this person is scummy and this is what is going on in my head and i think im so important that i should share every thought i have and i can wish-wash and call people scummy yet not think they are scum and not vote for them and basically waste our time with useless bullshit and tire me out because i just want to play but i get called scum every-other post that i make and scum try to pick on me andandnandandnandnandandnandnandnandnandandnandnandnandnandandn

Matey,

24hrs has passed and there is no strong indication of whether a majority will be lynched.

Where do you think conversation should be directed in the next 24hrs?
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 23:20 GMT
#1355
On November 24 2013 08:04 cDgCorazon wrote:
Talking about how I make scummy posts and then deciding to no-lynch cause no one wants to vote for me.

This is hillarious, because I am just drafting up a post that details the exact same thing.

Honestly, I agree that this is best for the thread.

Its going to be a little bit because I'm still filter diving you.
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 23:21 GMT
#1356
Aquanim
What do you think of Scibs response to Onegu regarding that Bereft case?
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 23:30 GMT
#1358
On November 24 2013 08:24 cDgCorazon wrote:
Please vote me. It's about time someone put their vote where their mouth is.

So I'm curious Mocsta, why am I so scummy now that I've been prodded to death? Shouldn't I have been scummy for a lot longer? If so, why didn't you point it out earlier? It's called confirmation bias, bro.

You have confirmation bias. I did not state any of the things you mentioned.

It will be clear once I have done my filter-dive. Currently you are null for me.
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 23:36 GMT
#1360
On November 24 2013 08:32 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2013 08:30 Mocsta wrote:
On November 24 2013 08:24 cDgCorazon wrote:
Please vote me. It's about time someone put their vote where their mouth is.

So I'm curious Mocsta, why am I so scummy now that I've been prodded to death? Shouldn't I have been scummy for a lot longer? If so, why didn't you point it out earlier? It's called confirmation bias, bro.

You have confirmation bias. I did not state any of the things you mentioned.

It will be clear once I have done my filter-dive. Currently you are null for me.

IF YOU HAVE A NULL READ ON ME I DONT WANT ANY CASE ON ME FROM YOU. YOU DONT MAKE "NULL CASES"

Once you are done answering Aquanim question; can you please give me your opinino on Scibs response to Onegu.
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 23:45 GMT
#1363
On November 24 2013 08:38 Aquanim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2013 08:21 Mocsta wrote:
Aquanim
What do you think of Scibs response to Onegu regarding that Bereft case?

I think he raises fair points about the Bereft case. I would have worded them quite differently, but that's unimportant.

Sciberbia didn't touch on every point, which honestly makes me feel better about him - he adressed the ones he thought were important and therefore made a judgement about which were important. I'm inclined to agree with his judgement. Points he didn't talk about, like "tunnels Rayn but is OK to vote Cora now", the Venn diagram, and some other miscellaneous posts, were in fact more peripheral to Onegu's case and generally far less conclusive.

I really want to know if Corazon has a different PoV to you.

Can you please convince him to respond.

I'm not chasing any scum slips - I promise Corazon.
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 23:51 GMT
#1365
On November 24 2013 08:47 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2013 08:45 Mocsta wrote:
On November 24 2013 08:38 Aquanim wrote:
On November 24 2013 08:21 Mocsta wrote:
Aquanim
What do you think of Scibs response to Onegu regarding that Bereft case?

I think he raises fair points about the Bereft case. I would have worded them quite differently, but that's unimportant.

Sciberbia didn't touch on every point, which honestly makes me feel better about him - he adressed the ones he thought were important and therefore made a judgement about which were important. I'm inclined to agree with his judgement. Points he didn't talk about, like "tunnels Rayn but is OK to vote Cora now", the Venn diagram, and some other miscellaneous posts, were in fact more peripheral to Onegu's case and generally far less conclusive.

I really want to know if Corazon has a different PoV to you.

Can you please convince him to respond.

I'm not chasing any scum slips - I promise Corazon.

Bullshit

Mate answer the question.

I have an opinion on Scibs interaction with Onegu; and I first want to know if you agree with Aquanim PoV

Just say yes or no if you dont want to detail it in a paragraph.
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 23:55 GMT
#1367
On November 24 2013 08:38 Aquanim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2013 08:21 Mocsta wrote:
Aquanim
What do you think of Scibs response to Onegu regarding that Bereft case?

I think he raises fair points about the Bereft case. I would have worded them quite differently, but that's unimportant.

Sciberbia didn't touch on every point, which honestly makes me feel better about him - he adressed the ones he thought were important and therefore made a judgement about which were important. I'm inclined to agree with his judgement. Points he didn't talk about, like "tunnels Rayn but is OK to vote Cora now", the Venn diagram, and some other miscellaneous posts, were in fact more peripheral to Onegu's case and generally far less conclusive.

Corazon
Do you agree.

Yes or No


You've had time to think about it, so now you can respond as a pre-planned answer
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 23 2013 23:59 GMT
#1370
On November 24 2013 08:56 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2013 08:55 Mocsta wrote:
On November 24 2013 08:38 Aquanim wrote:
On November 24 2013 08:21 Mocsta wrote:
Aquanim
What do you think of Scibs response to Onegu regarding that Bereft case?

I think he raises fair points about the Bereft case. I would have worded them quite differently, but that's unimportant.

Sciberbia didn't touch on every point, which honestly makes me feel better about him - he adressed the ones he thought were important and therefore made a judgement about which were important. I'm inclined to agree with his judgement. Points he didn't talk about, like "tunnels Rayn but is OK to vote Cora now", the Venn diagram, and some other miscellaneous posts, were in fact more peripheral to Onegu's case and generally far less conclusive.

Corazon
Do you agree.

Yes or No


You've had time to think about it, so now you can respond as a pre-planned answer

Who cares? I'm scum anyways. Aren't I, Moc?

Actually, Having gone through the first 2 pages of your filter, I find your early day1 play extremely townie.

I shouldnt have to tell you this, to illicit a response from you though.

Heres an example
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 20 2013 13:07 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:01 Bereft wrote:
On November 20 2013 12:57 cDgCorazon wrote:
On November 20 2013 12:54 Aquanim wrote:

...
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.

The way I see it, sciberbia analysing the first page at least gives us something to talk about. Why don't you think what he's doing is productive?


I think it is sciberia either not understanding that the first page of a game is usually just joking around or he is trying to rock the boat ridiculously early in the game.

Seeing as sciberia is not new to this game, I think it's the latter.

and what's wrong with rocking the boat ridiculously early in the game?

did you notice that mocsta also did the same thing? according to him, from the 1st page, aqua, sciberia, and I are scum.

do you only take issue with sciberia's page 1 analysis only because it's about you?

He didn't do it with just me. He told Moc and I that it was scummy that we made troll posts. At least Mocsta was direct in saying who he thought was scummy instead of sciberia who is only doing a "window looking" version of scum hunting.
Another confusing post due to the injection of "Moc & I"
1. Does he have a town lean on me, hence thinks, Scibs calling out of trolling to Corazon then applies to me? (i.e. typecase town) - Unlikely
2. Does he know I am town, hence, trying to lump himself with me (i.e. scum knowledge) - Again, I would have to assume Corazon is good at scum and non-emotional to assume he could be capable of this. Unlikely
3. Misread the argument - Unlikely: He came back from a shower and made that post to Scibs very calmly. It is clear he was in control of what he was writing.
4. Mentioned my name because Bereft brought up my name: Very likely.

Working off point 4 it shows Corazon is at least trying to have a baseline to compare things. Hes putting himself out there whether right or wrong. This is early Day1 and hes already gone out guns blazing and then backing up his views.
Gotta be town.
Think about this <unfortunately its a tell that only works for me>
I know Mocsta is town.
Corazon has a track record with me that isn't too flash.
He *should* be scared of me if he is scum; he *should* be reluctant to post when I am here if he is scum.

Instead, hes putting himself out there, in particular calmly as well. Hes trying to play this game well - just like me. Pretty damn townie.
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 24 2013 00:06 GMT
#1373
On November 24 2013 09:03 cDgCorazon wrote:
For every 1 good post you write about me, you write 5 of these...
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2013 13:49 Mocsta wrote:
On November 23 2013 10:54 cDgCorazon wrote:
On November 23 2013 10:38 sciberbia wrote:
Have some questions for you Cora.

1) Can you explain what you were talking about in this post? How exactly did you think rayn was trying to gain town cred by going on a rampage and martyring himself?
On November 22 2013 04:45 cDgCorazon wrote:
I really do not like Rayn martyring...tbh the concept of martyring has been beaten to death and I think he's just using it as a ploy to gain town cred.


2) If you think it would have been beneficial to scum to keep rayn alive yesterday EVEN given that he is town, why would you not vote for him yesterday? Surely if you think lynching town!rayn would be bad for scum, then it would be good for town? And if he flipped scum even better, right? I don't see how you reconcile voting for no lynch with claiming that it would have been better for scum to no-lynch yesterday.

Ok, to be honest, the Rayn lynch was basically impossible for me to pick a side. On one hand, I really thought Rayn was town. On the other hand, Rayn's play was very anti-town. It is a very narrow playstyle that Rayn's townplay fits into. He can be town but not an asset to town at the same time. That is the reason I'm not attacking Mocsta after Rayn's flip.

I think I'm being misrepresented (or perhaps I have misrepresented myself) to say that I was against the Rayn lynch. Rayn's really bad townplay, along with the fact that it was a majority lynch, gave me a choice of either lynching someone who I was very confident was town or having him shit up the thread.

I think my thought process would make more sense if I went through it.

At the beginning, when I made all of those "OMG this fight is stupid" posts, it was due to the fact that the thread had become a shitfest and Rayn/everyone else were simply shitting up the thread. I was truly exasperated and angry that the thread had gone out of control and we had gone from some very good discussion on Aqua/myself/Rean to Rayn and only Rayn.

After I came back from school, I was still trying to make a decision whether to vote Rayn or not. When I made the post that you quoted, I think I was trying to justify a Rayn lynch to myself. I knew that it was a dumb lynch but I also knew that I could not do anything about it. Rayn had basically lost it and I did not know whether to give him a second chance or not.

When I got back (about 45 minutes from the deadline), I said to myself "Fuck it, I'm not going to be dragged around and be forced to follow thread sentiment". So I voted for a no-lynch. I knew it was useless to try and suggest because Rayn was already bleeding badly and all of the sharks were floating around him. You guys were tunneled way too hard on Rayn and that was a mistake that I tried to correct earlier but gave up out of frustration.

TL;DR: My town read on Rayn + The shitty town atmosphere Rayn was causing= scenario where no one wins and I'm forced to walk a very fine line to take a neutral stance on Rayn's lynch.

On a lunch break.

This is a really bad post.

Its very constructed and uses analogies. This is the first time Corazon breaks out a post with this type of construction and notably, he is answering a very important question from Sciberbia that - I think - produces an alignment indicative response.

Do you understand why I am frustrated with you?

If you want me to cooperate, I'm going to make a request from you. You have to not call me "scummy" unless you make a case that encompasses my play the entire game and accompany said case with a vote. I don't want anything else from you about your read on me, even if others ask you for your opinion on me. Is that clear?
Hunny, that is precisely what i am donig.

I am making a stream of consciousness right now as I read your *entire filter*

Hence why I said before that my read before was null.

What I am asking you about scibs -> Onegu is a side story related to Scibs.

I have an opinion on it that I would like to share but I wanted to get some other opinions first. Aqua shared; please, just a yes or no to whether you agree with him.
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 24 2013 00:10 GMT
#1375
On November 24 2013 09:07 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2013 09:06 Mocsta wrote:
On November 24 2013 09:03 cDgCorazon wrote:
For every 1 good post you write about me, you write 5 of these...
On November 23 2013 13:49 Mocsta wrote:
On November 23 2013 10:54 cDgCorazon wrote:
On November 23 2013 10:38 sciberbia wrote:
Have some questions for you Cora.

1) Can you explain what you were talking about in this post? How exactly did you think rayn was trying to gain town cred by going on a rampage and martyring himself?
On November 22 2013 04:45 cDgCorazon wrote:
I really do not like Rayn martyring...tbh the concept of martyring has been beaten to death and I think he's just using it as a ploy to gain town cred.


2) If you think it would have been beneficial to scum to keep rayn alive yesterday EVEN given that he is town, why would you not vote for him yesterday? Surely if you think lynching town!rayn would be bad for scum, then it would be good for town? And if he flipped scum even better, right? I don't see how you reconcile voting for no lynch with claiming that it would have been better for scum to no-lynch yesterday.

Ok, to be honest, the Rayn lynch was basically impossible for me to pick a side. On one hand, I really thought Rayn was town. On the other hand, Rayn's play was very anti-town. It is a very narrow playstyle that Rayn's townplay fits into. He can be town but not an asset to town at the same time. That is the reason I'm not attacking Mocsta after Rayn's flip.

I think I'm being misrepresented (or perhaps I have misrepresented myself) to say that I was against the Rayn lynch. Rayn's really bad townplay, along with the fact that it was a majority lynch, gave me a choice of either lynching someone who I was very confident was town or having him shit up the thread.

I think my thought process would make more sense if I went through it.

At the beginning, when I made all of those "OMG this fight is stupid" posts, it was due to the fact that the thread had become a shitfest and Rayn/everyone else were simply shitting up the thread. I was truly exasperated and angry that the thread had gone out of control and we had gone from some very good discussion on Aqua/myself/Rean to Rayn and only Rayn.

After I came back from school, I was still trying to make a decision whether to vote Rayn or not. When I made the post that you quoted, I think I was trying to justify a Rayn lynch to myself. I knew that it was a dumb lynch but I also knew that I could not do anything about it. Rayn had basically lost it and I did not know whether to give him a second chance or not.

When I got back (about 45 minutes from the deadline), I said to myself "Fuck it, I'm not going to be dragged around and be forced to follow thread sentiment". So I voted for a no-lynch. I knew it was useless to try and suggest because Rayn was already bleeding badly and all of the sharks were floating around him. You guys were tunneled way too hard on Rayn and that was a mistake that I tried to correct earlier but gave up out of frustration.

TL;DR: My town read on Rayn + The shitty town atmosphere Rayn was causing= scenario where no one wins and I'm forced to walk a very fine line to take a neutral stance on Rayn's lynch.

On a lunch break.

This is a really bad post.

Its very constructed and uses analogies. This is the first time Corazon breaks out a post with this type of construction and notably, he is answering a very important question from Sciberbia that - I think - produces an alignment indicative response.

Do you understand why I am frustrated with you?

If you want me to cooperate, I'm going to make a request from you. You have to not call me "scummy" unless you make a case that encompasses my play the entire game and accompany said case with a vote. I don't want anything else from you about your read on me, even if others ask you for your opinion on me. Is that clear?
Hunny, that is precisely what i am donig.

I am making a stream of consciousness right now as I read your *entire filter*

Hence why I said before that my read before was null.

What I am asking you about scibs -> Onegu is a side story related to Scibs.

I have an opinion on it that I would like to share but I wanted to get some other opinions first. Aqua shared; please, just a yes or no to whether you agree with him.

No, I want a promise from you to fulfill my request. Nothing less.
I can't do that. I haven't finished my stream.

Whatever, its your loss.
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 24 2013 00:12 GMT
#1377
On November 24 2013 08:38 Aquanim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2013 08:21 Mocsta wrote:
Aquanim
What do you think of Scibs response to Onegu regarding that Bereft case?

I think he raises fair points about the Bereft case. I would have worded them quite differently, but that's unimportant.

Sciberbia didn't touch on every point, which honestly makes me feel better about him - he adressed the ones he thought were important and therefore made a judgement about which were important. I'm inclined to agree with his judgement. Points he didn't talk about, like "tunnels Rayn but is OK to vote Cora now", the Venn diagram, and some other miscellaneous posts, were in fact more peripheral to Onegu's case and generally far less conclusive.

I disagree - that it makes me feel better about him.

I'm concerned.

So heres context for question 2.
- Scibs from late Day1 has Onegu as his best scum read.

Do you think Scibs was addressing Onegu's case as if he was talking to a top scum read?
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 24 2013 00:26 GMT
#1380
(A)
I'm not happy with how this cycle has started.
Theres been a couple cases - resulting in delurks to dismiss (e.g. Scibs to Onegu); but in my opinion, no one has seriously tried to drive the thread towards a lynch.

Maybe the weekend is a valid excuse - heck I was busy as, yesterday; and somewhat today.
However, I still expect town to make check-ins (much like I did yesterday). Its not hard, is it?
This leads to be disappointed people like Rean/jampidampi are non-existent, and in particular, players like JJD/Bereft have barely posted.

The game is not solved, everyone needs to step up and contribute more: query posts, build cases, push a scum target


(B)
Corazon is starting to become an easy target - and I am concerned.
1. As mentioned already, he is making people hesitant to question him -- which is ideal for scum
2. He is losing his right to be held accountable -- again, this is deal for scum
3. He is losing his transparency (in regards to scum reads) -- again, this is ideal for scum

To me: in order to obtain enough harmony to faciliate a majority lynch I think Corazon needs to be put to bed as the highest priority in this thead.
Either we decide he is town and stop nitpicking him (until there is 1 scum left??); Or decide he is scum and lynch him.

Why?
11 players remain; 3 scum + 8 town.
Majority = 6 votes.
If scum do not want to join us for majority and Corazon is town; that means only one townie can object to the lynch ==> Pretty damn high chance of no-lynch.


(C)
My read on Corazon via Stream of Consciousness
+ Show Spoiler [Day1] +

On November 20 2013 12:06 cDgCorazon wrote:
Moc obv town. Fuck da police!
Trolling. Weird for Corazon. No read off it.

On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote:
I took a shower. Sorry for not wanting to smell bad.

Moc, I'm quite concerned that you have already used up >25% of your "self-allotted posts". If you're going to start spamming, it's going to be a problem.

Now to my goals/early game statements:

1. I'm not gonna make any meta crap posts. TBH I don't remember anyone's meta and it's ridiculously stupid logic. I'm not going to stand for it and I don't think you guys should either.

2. I'm voting for the scummiest person. My last game was Titanic and it came down to 3-4 days of "X is scum, Y/Z/Q is scum as well". That led the town way off of the path and allowed my scum team the easiest scum win in a very long

time. I don't care if they're not on the two lynch trains that are going to form. It's not instant majority so as long as I feel like I'm voting for the scummiest person in my opinion, I'm going to be happy with my vote.

3. I'm going to do my best to not be just an onlooker. I'm gonna try and facilitate discussion and ask a lot of questions instead of just answering questions and throw my ideas out there and just create more chaos.

On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.

corazon is a player that likes to be overly pro-town (like me); so I get why a town Corazon would post the above 3 points. Even though the energy inserted is "selfish" I like the last note. It means hes not posting generic

pro-town spiel for the sake of a contribution. Hes also talking to Sciberbia quite calm (and with hindsight, we know what he builds up to). I do think this is a town indicator - for Corazon.

On November 20 2013 12:40 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 12:28 thrawn2112 wrote:
Who wants a free town read? I've only got one, get it while supplies last! All you need to do is be the first to respond to this post!

mocsta is ineligible because him and I are already confirmed town to each other


I'd like to say that mason falls under the role of "standard roles" and could be potentially in this set-up. Very intriguing...
This post still confuses me (i.e. to be able to jump to this conclusion); however, nothing since has

been made of it, so its useless/meaingless.

On November 20 2013 12:44 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 12:43 sciberbia wrote:
On November 20 2013 12:28 thrawn2112 wrote:
Who wants a free town read? I've only got one, get it while supplies last! All you need to do is be the first to respond to this post!

mocsta is ineligible because him and I are already confirmed town to each other


@thrawn
You are masons?

Thx for piggybacking on my post. I really appreciate it.
I'm confused here. Most times I see players scream for credit on non-confirmed information its scum trying to get town cred for when the flip happens. Its why i didn't

like this post now; nor when i first read it. However, when I think about this: the content of the piggyback is not goign to lead to any town cred. Its such a stupid & meaningless conversation.
It really reads as an emotional outburst of a post.
I haven't read Titatnic to confirm if Corazon is capable of this outburst as scum; but in my mind even if he wasn, as scum you often think before pressing post. I think a scum corazon logically would know this is a waste of a post -

regardles of his emotions - and not bother to post it. Its additional heat for no reward.
I am giving this a town lean.

On November 20 2013 12:57 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 12:54 Aquanim wrote:

...
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.

The way I see it, sciberbia analysing the first page at least gives us something to talk about. Why don't you think what he's doing is productive?


I think it is sciberia either not understanding that the first page of a game is usually just joking around or he is trying to rock the boat ridiculously early in the game.

Seeing as sciberia is not new to this game, I think it's the latter.
Pages of the thread have gone out to this quote.
1. Previously he asked Scibs to stop looking into him.
2. Aqua suggests that there could be content in the first page.
3. Corazon reinforces his comment by stating Scibs is <scummily> "rocking the board".

Now when I think about this: I am not sure why Corazon now upgrades (*publicly) his read to scum on Scibs. If I have a guess, Corazon originally treated it was a weak scum lean so called it out mildly. When queried by Aquanim he uses

stronger language to reinforce his point. I don't think this series of events is out of line for town or scum to make. What I do think is relatively townie is that first part. "Sciberia could be town not understanding people joke".

This actually demonstrates he has an open mindset and is considering both sides of the fence.
Pretty weak, as good scum play also do this -- but I don't know if Corazon fits into this category. I will give a minor lean towards town.

On November 20 2013 13:07 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:01 Bereft wrote:
On November 20 2013 12:57 cDgCorazon wrote:
On November 20 2013 12:54 Aquanim wrote:

...
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.

The way I see it, sciberbia analysing the first page at least gives us something to talk about. Why don't you think what he's doing is productive?


I think it is sciberia either not understanding that the first page of a game is usually just joking around or he is trying to rock the boat ridiculously early in the game.

Seeing as sciberia is not new to this game, I think it's the latter.

and what's wrong with rocking the boat ridiculously early in the game?

did you notice that mocsta also did the same thing? according to him, from the 1st page, aqua, sciberia, and I are scum.

do you only take issue with sciberia's page 1 analysis only because it's about you?

He didn't do it with just me. He told Moc and I that it was scummy that we made troll posts. At least Mocsta was direct in saying who he thought was scummy instead of sciberia who is only doing a "window looking" version of scum

hunting.
Another confusing post due to the injection of "Moc & I"
1. Does he have a town lean on me, hence thinks, Scibs calling out of trolling to Corazon then applies to me? (i.e. typecase town) - Unlikely
2. Does he know I am town, hence, trying to lump himself with me (i.e. scum knowledge) - Again, I would have to assume Corazon is good at scum and non-emotional to assume he could be capable of this. Unlikely
3. Misread the argument - Unlikely: He came back from a shower and made that post to Scibs very calmly. It is clear he was in control of what he was writing.
4. Mentioned my name because Bereft brought up my name: Very likely.

Working off point 4 it shows Corazon is at least trying to have a baseline to compare things. Hes putting himself out there whether right or wrong. This is early Day1 and hes already gone out guns blazing and then backing up his views.
Gotta be town.
Think about this <unfortunately its a tell that only works for me>
I know Mocsta is town.
Corazon has a track record with me that isn't too flash.
He *should* be scared of me if he is scum; he *should* be reluctant to post when I am here if he is scum.

Instead, hes putting himself out there, in particular calmly as well. Hes trying to play this game well - just like me. Pretty damn townie.

On November 20 2013 13:20 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:18 thrawn2112 wrote:
##vote: cDgCorazon

Is that you Marv?
This joke post is quite telling as well. This is the first vote on Corazon and he makes a joke about it. We obviously know how he now responds to critiques against him, however, the response early game when hes

trying hard to be a better player I think is COMPLETELY indicative of being town.
If scum and trying to play better; I think Coerazon would instantly question/fling shit at Thrawn - or even just ignore it. Instead he just brushes it off and continues on.

On November 20 2013 13:24 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:20 Aquanim wrote:
@Corazon
I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present.

He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others.

This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about

it.

This is what troubles me about sciberia right now.
Corazon is consistent in his message. At the time he was very confusing to understand, but in hindsight reading this I know that this all aligns with his posts later on. Good

scum play can be consistent like this too though. I do like that he is willing to keep explaining his message though; it does seem he is phrasing thigns in a way to be clear *and* convincing. Its hard to argue he does not have

emotional conviction either. I disagree scum would be this emotinally involved early game - regardless of being voted/pressured.

On November 20 2013 13:46 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:44 Rean wrote:
On November 20 2013 13:43 cDgCorazon wrote:
@Rean
Talking about town reads is silly. I'd rather just have 1 scum read from Aqua.


Why is it silly?

Would you vote someone on being the "least townie"? Talking about town reads is only good to high-five and pat each other on the back and compliment each other's town play. It doesn't get scum lynched.
As I stated before. I

think this is town indicative. He was in the midst of a convo with Aqua/Thrawn; and decides to interject here to talk about pro-town stuff (i.e. giving out town reads). Hes not actually calling out Rean as scummy here which to me

indicates he is stating this opinion because he believes in it. Look, scum love to butt in with stuff like this. Its easy - especially if you do believe it. For me the telling point is that he interjected whilst being pressured.
It probably should be a null tell; but I do like it as town. Especially because he explains his ratoinale in his next post:
On November 20 2013 13:50 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:47 Rean wrote:
On November 20 2013 13:46 cDgCorazon wrote:
On November 20 2013 13:44 Rean wrote:
On November 20 2013 13:43 cDgCorazon wrote:
@Rean
Talking about town reads is silly. I'd rather just have 1 scum read from Aqua.


Why is it silly?

Would you vote someone on being the "least townie"? Talking about town reads is only good to high-five and pat each other on the back and compliment each other's town play. It doesn't get scum lynched.


Sure, a good scum read is far more useful. But it might still say something useful. Put it like this, a town read and a scum read is better than just a scum read.

In my opinion, a better thing to ask would be a scum read and someone you would like to know more about. That would facilitate a lot more discussion than only a town/scum read due to the fact that having a town read on someone doesn't do anything for discussion.
what I like here is that he tries to improve the line of reasoning. Yes its still generic spiel, but the moment he chose to pick doesn't scream scum timing to me.

On November 20 2013 13:56 cDgCorazon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:54 Rean wrote:
On November 20 2013 13:50 cDgCorazon wrote:
On November 20 2013 13:47 Rean wrote:
On November 20 2013 13:46 cDgCorazon wrote:
On November 20 2013 13:44 Rean wrote:
On November 20 2013 13:43 cDgCorazon wrote:
@Rean
Talking about town reads is silly. I'd rather just have 1 scum read from Aqua.


Why is it silly?

Would you vote someone on being the "least townie"? Talking about town reads is only good to high-five and pat each other on the back and compliment each other's town play. It doesn't get scum lynched.


Sure, a good scum read is far more useful. But it might still say something useful. Put it like this, a town read and a scum read is better than just a scum read.

In my opinion, a better thing to ask would be a scum read and someone you would like to know more about. That would facilitate a lot more discussion than only a town/scum read due to the fact that having a town read on someone doesn't do anything for discussion.


Both are ways to get discussion going, which one is the better just depends on the situation/person I guess. Sometimes people don't have strong scumreads but get a strong townvibe from someone, it's always good for discussion.

Think it just comes down to preference.

Fair enough. I would like to hear Aqua's reads if he's done dodging Rean (although to be fair to him as well he did mention Thrawn's vote as a town indicator for him).
I don't like this post due to the condescension placed. I'm guilty of this all the time though. Its not scummy per se; just makes the person become more unlikeable.

On November 20 2013 15:42 cDgCorazon wrote:
@Moc
First of all, you skipped 11.
Second of all, are you trying to say that sciberia and I would be shit-flinging at each other in order to...bus each other? Gain town cred for after the lynch? I don't understand why you are trying to ship sciberia and I together.

If you didn't take a look at pregame, I made a bunch of comments about how towns self-destruct. As scum, I would let you guys shit-fight amongst each other and pick and choose my votes.

@sciberia
Put your vote where your mouth is.
Importantly, Corazon has a story that Scibs is scum. As town he truly believes it, as scum he pretends it.
I like "why are you trying to ship scib and I together".
He has consistency in his story; and in this scenario, cares MORE that I think scibs is scum, than that Corazon is scum. This is really telling as town. I don't see how this can be argued. Especially, when he asks Scibs to vote now.
(He was called out for this by me later on, and he suggested voting early is useless) but it is clear he did this ebcause he became emotionally excited.
Yes I sound tunneled on cora as town, but its not making sense to me a scum could play like this so far.

On November 21 2013 00:44 cDgCorazon wrote:
Alright I'm going to respond to the general criticism on me, the brunt of it being in Mocsta's case and then everyone else just rewording it.

First of all, most of Mocsta's filter analysis on me said that I had problems reading and that I was scummy. It's really shit casework from Mocsta because he's played multiple times with me and should know that I had a reading problem in general, whether I'm town or scum.

The rest of his case is his confirmation bias and calling sciberia my scummate. Lol.

I'm really surprised and disappointed that I got all the flak for the conversation between sciberia and I. In my opinion his actions were way more scummy and non-conclusive then mine and I believe that it is really hypocritical of everyone to attack me and simply ignore him.

On Aqua: I really agree with a lot of the points raised up against him. What troubles me the most is that he basically attacked Ream for sticking up for me and starting attacking Ream when it looked like my lynch wasn't going to go down. It felt like he was trying too hard to keep the lynch on me and that is what troubles me.

On others: I'm going to reread the thread but I already do not like the fact that sciberia and LoneMeow insist on keeping the conversation on me when the talk is about Aquanim. It's just making the town less focused and less able to discuss a good lynch candidate if they continue to ramble on about me. In my opinion, the first 24 hours should be allowed to free-flow and not have focused discussion (on one person) and the last 24 should be focus on the 2-3 wagons that pop up.

I'm going to reread Aqua and then reread the rest of the thread (pgs 10-13).
Good scum can make posts like this - at least content wise. Its pretty hard to fake the confidence here. Its written naturally. Because its from the standard checklist of how to play scum, I will stick with null.

On November 21 2013 01:16 cDgCorazon wrote:
On Aqua (again):

My problem with Aquanim is that he goes from a very neutral stance on me:

Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:45 Aquanim wrote:
On November 20 2013 13:36 Rean wrote:
Aquanim, you're constantly asking but never saying much about what you think. Gimme one town and one scum and reasons why please.

I reckon Thrawn's town because I liked the vote on Corazon. That is the kind of action which will get us doing truly productive things. (His unvote doesn't change that.)
As for scum, I'm not sure yet. Not enough information.

I don't much like Corazon's case on sciberbia but I can think of reasons why Corazon would make that argument as town, regardless of how good it is. I'm still null on Corazon but I'm very interested in what he chooses to do next.

I still want an answer to this from you:
On November 20 2013 13:04 Aquanim wrote:
On November 20 2013 12:55 Rean wrote:
On November 20 2013 12:52 Bereft wrote:
Rean, what do you think of Mocsta thus far?


Talks a lot, seems awfully certain of everything he says.

@Rean
Given this, which way are you leaning on Mocsta in terms of alignment?



To an all-out "he's scum!" stance without really having a transition between the two stances. It really troubles me that this was only after all of the cases on me came out. It just looks like Aqua just wants to follow thread sentiment for the big issues and branch out only for things related to his "reads". For example, his case on Rean screams to me that he wants to attack Rean for defending me. His case is weak and he blatantly lies about Rean's questioning of him and calls them not important when in fact he failed to read the reason they were asked in the first place:

Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:36 Rean wrote:
Aquanim, you're constantly asking but never saying much about what you think. Gimme one town and one scum and reasons why please.


It's obvious that Aquanim did not read the reason that Rean threw out this post and simply calls Rean scummy for asking this question. This was a good post because Rean wanted to continue discussion and get a read on Aqua who he had felt was not contributing enough information and enough opinions to the conversation. The fact that Aqua calls this scummy is absurd and can only be attributed to his own scumminess.

TL;DR
Changes opinion on me to follow thread sentiment
Attacks Rean (and says his question about town/scum reads accomplishes nothing when in fact it does) for defending me
This guy is scum

I'm confident enough in this case to throw a ##Vote: Aquanim out.
I disagree with the case i.e how hardline it is: but its clear with the amount of content that specifically relates to Corazon that he is getting butt-hurt. A tunneled townie could definitely make this post.
I like that he uses a case to justify his decision to not push Sciberbia anymore. It indicates transparency in play. Not a great town tell due to the ease of doing this, but still a good sign none-the-less.

On November 21 2013 01:22 cDgCorazon wrote:
No offense JJD that case is really weaksauce.
None of that stuff points to Rean being hardcore scum. It just points to him needing to be more active in the thread and throw some opinions out.

Do you really think that all of that stuff makes Rean more scummier than Aqua, myself, and sciberia?
I like that Corazon includes himself in the list of scummier people. Not entirely sure why, but it takes balls to do that. Its prob a null read though.



There are then a bunch of posts between him and JJD where there is a genuine misunderstanding based on how long it dragged out and Corazon becoming progressively frustrated. Null overall.


I am running out of time quickly. Got stuff to do today as well.

I will try and look at Corazon stances on important matters (closer to the rayn lynch/rean votes etc) when i get time today (possibly 12 hrs away)

However, from Day1, Corazon is FUCKING townie.

we need to move on and start treating him as an asset to town. Corazon *Can* find scum, we need to let him do this thing.

/ciao
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
November 24 2013 00:31 GMT
#1381
On November 24 2013 09:13 Aquanim wrote:
lol never mind

I didn't think it would take 13minutes for a response.

But whatevers,

I obviously haven't had a chance to look into Scibs filter in detail (or at all) since i was consumed with Corazon.

Things I remember from Scibs

- Terrible case on Corazon
- Came in and gave a town read on Rayn, and then semi-AFK'd, he stated he wanted Onegu lynched as a priority but it was clear he was happy playing second-fiddle
- Gives a defense of Bereft; and if Onegu was his best scum read, *SHOULD* have followed through with why Onegu is intentionally misrepresenting play and why Onegu is the best lynch for today.

Essentially 2 cycles in a row, Scibs is happy emailing everyone a bulletin of his intentions and doing nothing to campaign for them.

##Unvote
##Vote: Sciberbia

If someone wants to filter dive him whilst I'm gone, and prove otherwise - go ahead.
until that point in time, he is most definitely the best lynch for today.
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