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Message GMarshal if you request a ban please ^_^
Also when the game you're sitting out is over!
~GMarshal |
On February 24 2014 20:09 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2014 11:57 austinmcc wrote:
I don't see this as Vivax420 being banned for homophobic language. This appears to be a modkill and ban request for using homophobic language, being warned not to continue doing so, and then making the gayfk comment. I don't think we should start banning for any and all homophobic comments, but I fully support the idea of hosts having the prerogative to warn players about their language, and ban if such language continues. This is...less clear cut than someone saying stop calling x a retard, stop cursing, etc., but to the extent that replacing "a" with "gay" is homophobic, the Vivax420 folks did something they were warned not to do.
e: It sounds so hedge-y and equivocative to say "to the extent that replacing..." Making gay puns fits within the umbrella of behaviors we call homophobic. We should ban for sexuality-related things if they're maliciously intended, which I don't really think kush was. For something to be homophobic (or racist, etc etc) there has to be malicious intent, in my book. But he ignored a specific host warning like you said, and that is that.
that's my nigga!
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The first warning, which was put in thread and not in pm btw, so there was a chance I didn't even see it (but I did) was just for vulgar language, and there was nothing concerning homophobia in that warning.
Then I modkilled for saying gayfk . I can see that if I had been specifically warned about homophobic remarks but I wasn't.
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Also I want everyone to remember that this game was winnable by either side. And BH modkilled me, thus stopping a game that was winnable and close to over, thus shitting on all those hours the players had put into the game, JUST BECAUSE I SAID GAYFK.
This is really unacceptable conduct from a host. BH, I'm permanently banning you from hosting games that I play in.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
@kush:
I am 90% sure you would be temp banned from TL if you wrote "gayfk" on any other board, outside of some kind of meta-context where you were discussing the phrase itself. I am not pleased that I modkilled you; I would have preferred to let the game run its course. However, when we were discussing the way the forum was run, several hosts including myself committed to stricter moderation, moderation more in line with what takes place on TL as a whole. As I explicitly state in my OP, I'm not afraid to ruin a game for 10 players and 4 cohosts in order to enforce the rules.
Even if you think this kind of language is acceptable on TL, and even if "gayfk" is in fact a portmanteau of "gay" and "afk" (which still does not, in my eyes, make it acceptable), you were warned and you did not stop. If this upsets you and you want to be able to use phrases like "gayfk" in future games, then you are welcome to not play in my games. However, as always, you are welcome in my games, and as always, barring very extreme language, everyone always gets a warning.
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Lol. Hosts shouldn't (and good ones don't) give a flying fuck about whether modkilling someone for behavior will "ruin the game". It is precisely that mindset that has allowed bs like this to become so rampant on tlmafia.
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On February 24 2014 21:39 kushm4sta wrote:
The first warning, which was put in thread and not in pm btw, so there was a chance I didn't even see it (but I did) was just for vulgar language, and there was nothing concerning homophobia in that warning.
Then I modkilled for saying gayfk . I can see that if I had been specifically warned about homophobic remarks but I wasn't.
Kush, I warned you for your choice of words the first time. Just because the warning was not specifically about homophobic remarks doesn't make it not relevant in regards to them. In my opinion that is very poor reasoning.
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On February 24 2014 05:57 bumatlarge wrote:
Oh, I did think it meant "gay fuck" but GayFK feels a lot less offensive. It's clearly an attempt at clever acropunning.
I object to the (partial) use of my name in this phrase. I clearly have nothing to do with this.
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That word would be fine anywhere else on tl as long as you have it in a context that is relevant to the thread, like it was in this circumstance.
Also it's ridiculous that you aspire to mod the language like everywher else on tl. Every poll taken at tlmafia indicates that players do not want that. It is a much different setting and you are talking a lot more.
Admit that it was a terrible modkill, admit that the angel girl made you do it, and unrequest the ban immediately. That is your only course of action.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
No dice, kushm4sta. My game, my rules. You and vivax were warned, you and Vivax were modkilled, and now you and Vivax will be banned.
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On February 24 2014 21:01 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2014 20:09 marvellosity wrote:On February 24 2014 11:57 austinmcc wrote:
I don't see this as Vivax420 being banned for homophobic language. This appears to be a modkill and ban request for using homophobic language, being warned not to continue doing so, and then making the gayfk comment. I don't think we should start banning for any and all homophobic comments, but I fully support the idea of hosts having the prerogative to warn players about their language, and ban if such language continues. This is...less clear cut than someone saying stop calling x a retard, stop cursing, etc., but to the extent that replacing "a" with "gay" is homophobic, the Vivax420 folks did something they were warned not to do.
e: It sounds so hedge-y and equivocative to say "to the extent that replacing..." Making gay puns fits within the umbrella of behaviors we call homophobic. We should ban for sexuality-related things if they're maliciously intended, which I don't really think kush was. For something to be homophobic (or racist, etc etc) there has to be malicious intent, in my book. But he ignored a specific host warning like you said, and that is that. that's my nigga!
so palmar is also getting banned right?
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kush just dont sign up for BH games. or keep everyting pg-13 if you still want to sign up for bh games. host powers are mostly subjective so when you tpe /in you are agreeing to be subject to host whim
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On February 25 2014 02:48 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2014 21:01 Palmar wrote:On February 24 2014 20:09 marvellosity wrote:On February 24 2014 11:57 austinmcc wrote:
I don't see this as Vivax420 being banned for homophobic language. This appears to be a modkill and ban request for using homophobic language, being warned not to continue doing so, and then making the gayfk comment. I don't think we should start banning for any and all homophobic comments, but I fully support the idea of hosts having the prerogative to warn players about their language, and ban if such language continues. This is...less clear cut than someone saying stop calling x a retard, stop cursing, etc., but to the extent that replacing "a" with "gay" is homophobic, the Vivax420 folks did something they were warned not to do.
e: It sounds so hedge-y and equivocative to say "to the extent that replacing..." Making gay puns fits within the umbrella of behaviors we call homophobic. We should ban for sexuality-related things if they're maliciously intended, which I don't really think kush was. For something to be homophobic (or racist, etc etc) there has to be malicious intent, in my book. But he ignored a specific host warning like you said, and that is that. that's my nigga! so palmar is also getting banned right?
That was obvious satire and quite frankly if Palmar were to recieve a 2-day ban I think he'd say it was well worth it. He knew exactly what he was doing.
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Kush, let it be. I'm pretty sure BH is way more pissed than you considering how the game went, which also explains why he didn't mind much letting it end that way (2 or 3 modkills already, which host cares about another one.The game was ruined)
I wouldn't have wanted to host that either.
Also I just discovered this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440154
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On February 25 2014 02:53 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2014 02:48 kushm4sta wrote:On February 24 2014 21:01 Palmar wrote:On February 24 2014 20:09 marvellosity wrote:On February 24 2014 11:57 austinmcc wrote:
I don't see this as Vivax420 being banned for homophobic language. This appears to be a modkill and ban request for using homophobic language, being warned not to continue doing so, and then making the gayfk comment. I don't think we should start banning for any and all homophobic comments, but I fully support the idea of hosts having the prerogative to warn players about their language, and ban if such language continues. This is...less clear cut than someone saying stop calling x a retard, stop cursing, etc., but to the extent that replacing "a" with "gay" is homophobic, the Vivax420 folks did something they were warned not to do.
e: It sounds so hedge-y and equivocative to say "to the extent that replacing..." Making gay puns fits within the umbrella of behaviors we call homophobic. We should ban for sexuality-related things if they're maliciously intended, which I don't really think kush was. For something to be homophobic (or racist, etc etc) there has to be malicious intent, in my book. But he ignored a specific host warning like you said, and that is that. that's my nigga! so palmar is also getting banned right? That was obvious satire and quite frankly if Palmar were to recieve a 2-day ban I think he'd say it was well worth it. He knew exactly what he was doing.
He also didn't say it in a game in which he had already been warned. You can always click the report button on his post and see whether the TL mods agree with you, though...
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So....this seems a little bit overblown.
Saying "dicksucking" is being a homophobe?
I....thought heterosexual people did that too? Or did the internet lie to me?
I think hosts having a small council to determine this kind of stuff before "ruining" a game would be a good compromise between everybody. Yes, hosts are allowed and should regulate their games like they see fit.
But yes, players should play a game with the warranty that it won't end shitly just because.
If a situation like this happens (i.e a conflict of interest), then get a 3rd party involved.
Also hey, why don't hosts just replace people that get modkilled because of "bad behaviour"? Like, the guy ruining the game is out of it, but the game still goes on without nobody else getting shitted on. Win-win-lose (that lose for the guy getting replaced, and maybe the guy that is the replacement since he will get instantly lynched in 10 seconds, if the Shadow Game taught me anything).
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
I would have loved to replace any of the players I modkilled in GSL IV, especially since that would mean the game would be played out rather than ending due to modkills. I would vastly prefer that to what happened. Unfortunately we ran out of replacements after the first one, so the next 3 ended in modkills. However, if I force-replaced someone that would not impact what kind of banlist actions I would suggest.
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Anyways, ban discussion is too pessimistic and sad ;_;
We should do it the other way instead. After every game ends, you give "Super Awesome Points!" to all the players you think did good. The players you would have "banned" otherwise receive no points, but everybody else does.
Then we all talk about how much awesome those points are, and how shiny they look.
To enter a mafia game, you need 10 Awesome Points, so those that don't get any (i.e are "banned) have to sit it out.
Also maybe you can get points by grinding in Farmville or something dunno.
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I want to put a few things into perspective (and hope it's diplomatic enough)
On February 20 2014 20:10 Ange777 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 13:45 VIVAX420 wrote:
yeah you're scum. no backsies now. I know you are 100% scum grack.
know why? because that case is garbage and the real grack, may be a troll BUT HE KEEPS IT REAL.
you are dicksucking that case liek crazy
k now the biggest unknown is bum. Watch your language.
On February 22 2014 23:13 VIVAX420 wrote:
cant bleive you are bitching about mocsta when you 100% gayfked
-> Modkill (but I understand that the last one could be misunderstood when it actually means gay-afked as visible in the game's context, but gmarsh can't know that if u simply tell him that kush said "You 100% gayfked", which sounds terrible)
I don't think this is banworthy cause it's use of sexual language without malicious intent to the player it is directed to.
You might call me biased cause I've experienced this type of language a lot more times in the past, even directed at me. Here's an example from Personality mafia 2.
On March 12 2013 11:43 one of the players wrote:
Why is Ver suddenly an excellent choice? I can't really see Vivax talking about Ver at all. He's sucking BC's dick like a pro. He's completely abandoning his aforementioned philosophy so that he can bandwagon on to yamato.
It's ok to modkill people who become highly offensive towards others, but I don't think it's ok to ban simply cause you use words that are sexual. Like, there are blogs on this site of people who tell you how their girls repeatedly accidentally poop during intercourse, and kush gets banned for saying "you are sucking a case's d***" and g**-afk.
I know TL is very restrictive with how people treat each other, but I didn't imagine that now we are supposed to become like the catholic church and ban any sexual word from the dictionary.
Or should we say "It looks like you feel incited to to commit to fellatio with that case"?
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On February 25 2014 04:13 Vivax wrote:I want to put a few things into perspective. Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 20:10 Ange777 wrote:On February 20 2014 13:45 VIVAX420 wrote:
yeah you're scum. no backsies now. I know you are 100% scum grack.
know why? because that case is garbage and the real grack, may be a troll BUT HE KEEPS IT REAL.
you are dicksucking that case liek crazy
k now the biggest unknown is bum. Watch your language. Show nested quote +On February 22 2014 23:13 VIVAX420 wrote:
cant bleive you are bitching about mocsta when you 100% gayfked -> Modkill (but I understand that the last one could be misunderstood when it actually means gay-afked as visible in the game's context, but gmarsh can't know that if u simply tell him that kush said "You 100% gayfked", which sounds terrible) I don't think this is banworthy cause it's use of sexual language without malicious intent to the player it is directed to. You might call me biased cause I've experienced this type of language a lot more times in the past, even directed at me. Here's an example from Personality mafia 2. Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 11:43 one of the players wrote:
Why is Ver suddenly an excellent choice? I can't really see Vivax talking about Ver at all. He's sucking BC's dick like a pro. He's completely abandoning his aforementioned philosophy so that he can bandwagon on to yamato.
It's ok to modkill people who become highly offensive towards others, but I don't think it's ok to ban simply cause you use words that are sexual. Like, there are blogs on this site of people who tell you how their girls repeatedly accidentally poop during intercourse, and kush gets banned for saying "you are sucking a case's d***" and g**-afk. I know TL is very restrictive with how people treat each other, but I didn't imagine that now we are supposed to become like the catholic church and ban any sexual word from the dictionary. Or should we say "It looks like you feel stifled to commit to fellatio with that case"?
I understand what Marv said in that game may not have been appropriate. And I would make it clear that in my games it's not. I (and other hosts) have been more permissive about behavior in the past. I said I would be more aggressive against things like this, and I am being more aggressive against things like this. I understand that before we decided to re-evaluate moderation on this form, things were bad, and perhaps you were the target of some of this badness, but that is exactly why I am more strict now.
We are not going to be the catholic church. Sexual words are not banned. The correct answer isn't to talk about dicksucking or "gayfk", it's to express things in a way that doesn't actively drive people away from TL Mafia the way things have in the past.
Perhaps you have been wronged in Personality 2, Vivax, but if we allow this kind of thing to continue, to let you say bad things because people in the past said bad things to you, we make things worse, not better. I think this is a good time to quote Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.:
Are we seeking power for power’s sake? Or are we seeking to make the world and our nation better places to live? If we seek the latter, violence can never provide the answer.
The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.
so yeah just cause someone used that language once, before the new standards, on you, you doesn't mean you get to use that language on others
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"Dicksucking" is not a "sexual" word in that context, it's one that connotes power (from the player getting his d s)
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EPT
