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On July 15 2013 02:18 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 02:04 Chromatically wrote:If someone finds any part of that defense convincing, I can respond to it, but it doesn't change anything at all. Anyway, who can really give confident scum reads halfway through day one? Anyone one who pretends that they can is either overconfident and bullshitting themselves, or actually scum. The point is that Kirby hasn't given any real scumreads and hasn't actually been trying to find them. The reason for the posts to Sponge was fair enough. Even so, he still did not post enough real content until he was heavily pressured, but if he was afk then that is understandable. So, I believe his defence regarding the fluff point, so long as he makes more good posts before the end of the day. I do not buy his defence of his reads or of his Stim interactions, but I will post my comments on that in a separate post directed at Kirby.
The problem with the Sponge stuff is that he didn't really care about getting the results. I pointed this out in my case, his "pressure" is weak as anything. He was suspicious of Sponge, but he's politely asking him for his post.
Most importantly, he doesn't get any conclusions from it. If he was town, he would be doing it for a reason and would explain that reason. However, Kirby gets absolutely nothing from it, making the whole conversation completely useless.
He gives this as the purpose for the posts:
It was to see his reaction, and judge whether he was telling the truth.
Well what has he gotten? Nothing! His read on Sponge was totally unaffected.
He was pressuring Sponge for no reason, which is scum.
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On July 15 2013 02:36 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 02:28 Chromatically wrote:He gives this as the purpose for the posts: It was to see his reaction, and judge whether he was telling the truth. Well what has he gotten? Nothing! His read on Sponge was totally unaffected. He was pressuring Sponge for no reason, which is scum. What? Pressuring someone with no reason at the beginning of day 1 is scum? Why? It only gets town more information. If done properly (maybe better than I can do it) on a poor player (maybe a player worse than Sponge) who is actually just so happens to be scum, then you'll be able to get a very good scumread. Just because I wasn't successful with flying colors doesn't mean that a) we didn't get any information, or b) it was scummy.
Well, what information did you get from it?
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On July 15 2013 02:43 StiMaDDict wrote:
@Chromatically: I want your thought on Koshi. Believe it or not, he is second on my list.
He's a close second on mine, too. I don't want to do a full case, but he was really nervous in the beginning, played the noob card, and then only posted later after being pressured. He has 0 reasoning for voting Super, he literally said that "That is a really impressing post." (referring to hz's case).
This part is unexplainable from a town POV:
On July 15 2013 01:47 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 00:44 Koshi wrote:On July 15 2013 00:21 Chromatically wrote:On July 14 2013 22:41 Koshi wrote:
jrkirby needs to come back and start proving he is town. His last 5 posts were horribly rude, but I still wonder if scum would do that. It's so bold, or maybe he is just a rude person.. Why do you think that Kirby needs to price that he's town, but not Super? hzflank his case spreads out over a long period of Super posts and is a case on the playstyle of Super. Not as much nitpicking of sentences in the posts. The kirby case is more looking at the content of his posting. Kinda hard to explain, but you understand what I mean? No, you just messed up. Both cases are about playstyle. Both cases are spread out over a period. Neither case is nitpicking sentences. Both cases are looking at the content of the posting. You're just making stuff up. Your post implied that you were going to switch onto Kirby if he didn't post. This doesn't make any sense from a town perspective. You found the case on Super more convincing, but if neither of them posted, you would have switched onto Kirby? No logical town reason for that.
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On July 15 2013 02:48 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 02:38 Chromatically wrote:
Well, what information did you get from it? We got that he claims to have a post that he would've posted on the condition that he's scum, but he won't post it. He clearly admitted it. And there's an obvious scum reasoning behind that: He didn't actually have something to post, because he IS scum. That isn't to say there isn't neutral motivations, as he already posted one. We also got to see how he defends himself. Apparently he does it in a calm rational manner, and provides clear (if somewhat dubious) reasoning for his actions. If you don't have anything new to ask me, I'm going to read his filter now.
So it sounds like you got a scummy feel from the situation. However, you never show any signs of this.
Why wouldn't you pressure vote him? Why wouldn't you keep pressuring him? Why wouldn't you ask others for reads on him?
These are all things that townies would do to develop and push their reads, but you never show any interest in Sponge after this. You show no signs at all that you actually care about Sponge's alignment.
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On July 15 2013 02:57 Rainbows wrote:
So I've done some analysis of the voting patterns of the moment. JrKirby is in grave danger... why isn't he voting Super?
That strikes me as odd. Scum would do it to stay alive. Town would do it to stay alive. Anyone have some insight as to motivation (with the exception of 'he thinks Gotard is scum and not Super') because I can't justify it from either alignments perspective.
He really doesn't want to look like he's sheeping. He thinks that he'll look suspicious if he just wagons on Super, so he tries to vote for an "original scumread" so that people see him as more town. It makes more sense from scum like this.
Then he can switch to Super later with the justification that "my scumread wasn't going to happen so I'll consolidate".
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On July 15 2013 03:16 Rainbows wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 03:15 StiMaDDict wrote:
@Rainbow: Explain your unvote on Gotard please. Has your scumread on him changed or do you feel as if you need to change your vote due to majority voting system. I think he's scum. Just not the scum we're lynching today. Since he's voting JrKirby, I feel like Super is the better lynch.
You're voting purely based on preflip associations, which you just said were bad?
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On July 15 2013 03:21 Koshi wrote:
Can we get a Super lynch going? Chromatically could you please consider this? Don't you think that Kirby is better for town if both Kirby and Super are at this point equally scum? Kirby posts much better than Super, if Kirby is scum I feel like it will be easier to catch him later on than Super.
I see that you guys (StiM, Croma) are thinking that I am scum. It's fine by me, we can discuss it later, I am not going to stop posting, I am during Europe times online A LOT, you can keep grilling me.
This is blatantly untrue. Super actually posts scumreads with reasoning. Kirby does not.
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On July 15 2013 03:28 Rainbows wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 03:19 Chromatically wrote:On July 15 2013 03:16 Rainbows wrote:On July 15 2013 03:15 StiMaDDict wrote:
@Rainbow: Explain your unvote on Gotard please. Has your scumread on him changed or do you feel as if you need to change your vote due to majority voting system. I think he's scum. Just not the scum we're lynching today. Since he's voting JrKirby, I feel like Super is the better lynch. You're voting purely based on preflip associations, which you just said were bad? Both dudes on the block are scummy, Super just has less redeeming qualities.Pre-flip associations are bad. Very bad. Though as a mortal, I do bad things all the time. The problem I'm facing is figuring out which wagon is scum. My town reads are all over these two guys (and if my town reads are scum, GJ dudes, fuck these bad townies). Super just makes big paragraphs and has a ton of excuses blah blah blah. I have no qualms with lynching either of these guys, I may as well spin around and play pin-the-tail-on-the-scum at this point. Hurray for Day 1's, the only reason I'm rather 'meh' as town is because I have no information from the start. As scum I know all the things and am never wrong because my objective is to kill town. Fun Fact: I love playing scum :p
Tell me your own reasoning, why is Super scum?
You too, Koshi,
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On July 15 2013 03:27 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 02:51 Chromatically wrote:On July 15 2013 02:48 jrkirby wrote:On July 15 2013 02:38 Chromatically wrote:
Well, what information did you get from it? We got that he claims to have a post that he would've posted on the condition that he's scum, but he won't post it. He clearly admitted it. And there's an obvious scum reasoning behind that: He didn't actually have something to post, because he IS scum. That isn't to say there isn't neutral motivations, as he already posted one. We also got to see how he defends himself. Apparently he does it in a calm rational manner, and provides clear (if somewhat dubious) reasoning for his actions. If you don't have anything new to ask me, I'm going to read his filter now. So it sounds like you got a scummy feel from the situation. However, you never show any signs of this. Why wouldn't you pressure vote him? Why wouldn't you keep pressuring him? Why wouldn't you ask others for reads on him?These are all things that townies would do to develop and push their reads, but you never show any interest in Sponge after this. You show no signs at all that you actually care about Sponge's alignment. It actually might have been a good idea for me to put a pressure vote on him. I'm not the greatest player, but that sounds like that would've been a good idea. Too bad I didn't think of that earlier. I didn't keep pressuring him because I didn't have anything to pressure him on. I guess I should've asked for others' reads on him too. This is all good advice, wish I had thought of it earlier myself. Thanks.
You didn't have anything to pressure him on?!? What about what you literally just told me?
We got that he claims to have a post that he would've posted on the condition that he's scum, but he won't post it. He clearly admitted it. And there's an obvious scum reasoning behind that: He didn't actually have something to post, because he IS scum. That isn't to say there isn't neutral motivations, as he already posted one. We also got to see how he defends himself. Apparently he does it in a calm rational manner, and provides clear (if somewhat dubious) reasoning for his actions.
A townie would post their scumread in the thread with their reasoning. You DID have something to pressure him on, but you DIDN'T.
You guys aren't really going to let this slide, right?
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On July 15 2013 03:39 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 03:30 Chromatically wrote:On July 15 2013 03:28 Rainbows wrote:On July 15 2013 03:19 Chromatically wrote:On July 15 2013 03:16 Rainbows wrote:On July 15 2013 03:15 StiMaDDict wrote:
@Rainbow: Explain your unvote on Gotard please. Has your scumread on him changed or do you feel as if you need to change your vote due to majority voting system. I think he's scum. Just not the scum we're lynching today. Since he's voting JrKirby, I feel like Super is the better lynch. You're voting purely based on preflip associations, which you just said were bad? Both dudes on the block are scummy, Super just has less redeeming qualities.Pre-flip associations are bad. Very bad. Though as a mortal, I do bad things all the time. The problem I'm facing is figuring out which wagon is scum. My town reads are all over these two guys (and if my town reads are scum, GJ dudes, fuck these bad townies). Super just makes big paragraphs and has a ton of excuses blah blah blah. I have no qualms with lynching either of these guys, I may as well spin around and play pin-the-tail-on-the-scum at this point. Hurray for Day 1's, the only reason I'm rather 'meh' as town is because I have no information from the start. As scum I know all the things and am never wrong because my objective is to kill town. Fun Fact: I love playing scum :p Tell me your own reasoning, why is Super scum? You too, Koshi, I have no interest in doing so. I am also bored with the fact that we need to keep making our own giant posts to get completely ignored by your tunneling on Kirby. If you don't agree with me that both players look scummy atm but Kirby might be easier to read in Day 2 because he posts more and is more aggressive. Then we don't have much to discuss. If there are 6 votes on Kirby expect me to give the 7th. But for now I believe Super is the best choice.
You have no interest in finding scum? I didn't ask you for a giant post, I asked why you thought that Super is scum. I assumed that you'd have reasoning for it, since that's what you're pushing.
This is probably the 5th time that someone has thrown "tunneling" out there to discredit me. I'm not tunneling. I'm not ignoring evidence that disproves my point, I'm not ignoring other candidates for no reason, and I have very good reasons for pushing Kirby.
I'm interested in why you think that Super is scum because I don't see it.
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On July 15 2013 03:40 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 03:35 Chromatically wrote:On July 15 2013 03:27 jrkirby wrote:On July 15 2013 02:51 Chromatically wrote:On July 15 2013 02:48 jrkirby wrote:On July 15 2013 02:38 Chromatically wrote:
Well, what information did you get from it? We got that he claims to have a post that he would've posted on the condition that he's scum, but he won't post it. He clearly admitted it. And there's an obvious scum reasoning behind that: He didn't actually have something to post, because he IS scum. That isn't to say there isn't neutral motivations, as he already posted one. We also got to see how he defends himself. Apparently he does it in a calm rational manner, and provides clear (if somewhat dubious) reasoning for his actions. If you don't have anything new to ask me, I'm going to read his filter now. So it sounds like you got a scummy feel from the situation. However, you never show any signs of this. Why wouldn't you pressure vote him? Why wouldn't you keep pressuring him? Why wouldn't you ask others for reads on him?These are all things that townies would do to develop and push their reads, but you never show any interest in Sponge after this. You show no signs at all that you actually care about Sponge's alignment. It actually might have been a good idea for me to put a pressure vote on him. I'm not the greatest player, but that sounds like that would've been a good idea. Too bad I didn't think of that earlier. I didn't keep pressuring him because I didn't have anything to pressure him on. I guess I should've asked for others' reads on him too. This is all good advice, wish I had thought of it earlier myself. Thanks. You didn't have anything to pressure him on?!? What about what you literally just told me?
We got that he claims to have a post that he would've posted on the condition that he's scum, but he won't post it. He clearly admitted it. And there's an obvious scum reasoning behind that: He didn't actually have something to post, because he IS scum. That isn't to say there isn't neutral motivations, as he already posted one. We also got to see how he defends himself. Apparently he does it in a calm rational manner, and provides clear (if somewhat dubious) reasoning for his actions.
A townie would post their scumread in the thread with their reasoning. You DID have something to pressure him on, but you DIDN'T. You guys aren't really going to let this slide, right? I didn't have anything ELSE to pressure him on. And I didn't want to completely tunnel him either.
If he was your scumread, you would want to pressure him with this and bring it to town's attention.
I'm going to stop this conversation because it's not going to go anywhere from here. I think you're scum, you disagree.
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On July 15 2013 04:04 Umasi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 04:01 Koshi wrote:
Staying alive is not important at all. Vanilla Townies are here to post as much as they can, make as much sense as they can, do as much scumreading as they can. And then die with full glory in the night. Unfortunately I have no fucking clue what to make of Koshi, and it doesn't really matter atm because everyone falls behind Super and Kirby on the priority list maybe kinda scummy but I want to keep him around so he can spout phrases like that more often.
Did you read this?
On July 15 2013 01:47 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 00:44 Koshi wrote:On July 15 2013 00:21 Chromatically wrote:On July 14 2013 22:41 Koshi wrote:
jrkirby needs to come back and start proving he is town. His last 5 posts were horribly rude, but I still wonder if scum would do that. It's so bold, or maybe he is just a rude person.. Why do you think that Kirby needs to price that he's town, but not Super? hzflank his case spreads out over a long period of Super posts and is a case on the playstyle of Super. Not as much nitpicking of sentences in the posts. The kirby case is more looking at the content of his posting. Kinda hard to explain, but you understand what I mean? No, you just messed up. Both cases are about playstyle. Both cases are spread out over a period. Neither case is nitpicking sentences. Both cases are looking at the content of the posting. You're just making stuff up. Your post implied that you were going to switch onto Kirby if he didn't post. This doesn't make any sense from a town perspective. You found the case on Super more convincing, but if neither of them posted, you would have switched onto Kirby? No logical town reason for that.
I don't know why you like that quote, it's not even relevant. We're not talking about getting nk'd, we're talking about getting mislynched (something that every townie obviously wants to avoid).
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On July 15 2013 03:57 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 03:45 Superfluous wrote:
Firstly I agree with Chroma's response to this, these are everyone's priorities especially early on. I do not and will not agree with this, and I expect that most other people will not agree, either. When the game starts, at the beginning of day 1, the first priority for scum is to not get lynched. The first priority for town is to create an atmosphere in which good reads can be made. The second priority for town is to hunt for scum and try to strengthen their reads. Staying alive barely even registers on the list of things to do. You admit that the first thing that you did was try to stay alive. I suppose you have to now as you cannot backtrack on that. It is my opinion that having such priorities makes you scum. I do not want to tunnel you over a single point, so I will call that a big red mark and wait to see what you post before the deadline. I see no point in pressuring you directly on this issue as you are just going to claim philosophical differences, which I consider a weak defense when your philosophy is terrible.
Here is a DIRECT QUOTE from Incognito's "General Guide to Mafia"
Priority #1: Establishing Your Innocence So, you know how to look for mafia and are ready to smoke them out. But unfortunately, just knowing how to find mafia is not good enough. The other part of the equation is convincing the town that you’ve found them. While you may be correct, it takes more than your own vote to properly seal the deal and kill off the mafia. As a townie, your number 1 priority is to establish your innocence. Why? Establishing your innocence does three things: - It gives you a credible platform from which you can push your agenda
- It reduces the mafia’s options for pushing their agenda - they can’t attack you without some serious consequences
- It reduces the number of viable mafia candidates - if the town thinks you are innocent that’s one less person to worry about
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On July 15 2013 04:11 Superfluous wrote:
I'll stick by my early read and say that jkirby is sporadic and unpredictable. He could be a liability late game as this play could easily be jumped on by mafia to make a case for him being scum. That said I do think he's town. The only thing that makes me suspicious of him is association; for instance how Koshi is trying to get a lynch on me going in alternative to him when in his post he says there is an equal chance we are scum. But no point in voting on pre-flip associations as someone previously said.
Why do you think that he's town?
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On July 15 2013 04:18 Umasi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 04:12 Chromatically wrote:On July 15 2013 03:57 hzflank wrote:On July 15 2013 03:45 Superfluous wrote:
Firstly I agree with Chroma's response to this, these are everyone's priorities especially early on. I do not and will not agree with this, and I expect that most other people will not agree, either. When the game starts, at the beginning of day 1, the first priority for scum is to not get lynched. The first priority for town is to create an atmosphere in which good reads can be made. The second priority for town is to hunt for scum and try to strengthen their reads. Staying alive barely even registers on the list of things to do. You admit that the first thing that you did was try to stay alive. I suppose you have to now as you cannot backtrack on that. It is my opinion that having such priorities makes you scum. I do not want to tunnel you over a single point, so I will call that a big red mark and wait to see what you post before the deadline. I see no point in pressuring you directly on this issue as you are just going to claim philosophical differences, which I consider a weak defense when your philosophy is terrible. Here is a DIRECT QUOTE from Incognito's "General Guide to Mafia"Priority #1: Establishing Your Innocence So, you know how to look for mafia and are ready to smoke them out. But unfortunately, just knowing how to find mafia is not good enough. The other part of the equation is convincing the town that you’ve found them. While you may be correct, it takes more than your own vote to properly seal the deal and kill off the mafia. As a townie, your number 1 priority is to establish your innocence. Why? Establishing your innocence does three things: - It gives you a credible platform from which you can push your agenda
- It reduces the mafia’s options for pushing their agenda - they can’t attack you without some serious consequences
- It reduces the number of viable mafia candidates - if the town thinks you are innocent that’s one less person to worry about
Show nested quote +You admit that the first thing that you did was try to stay alive. I suppose you have to now as you cannot backtrack on that. It is my opinion that having such priorities makes you scum. Super has said that he was trying to stay alive, which I consider quite different from establishing innocence. I just want to clarify, Chrom, do you think that Superfluous is town or scum? Are you defending him because you think he's town, or because you want a kirby lynch to go through?
Establishing innocence == staying alive. If there is pressure on you, you defend it. That's both establishing your innocence and helping you to stay alive. One of the reasons why establishing innocence is important is that it prevents your mislynch, aka staying alive. It's not scummy at all, it's what I would do.
I think that Super is town (but I also obviously want the Kirby lynch).
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If I walked into the thread and there was pressure on me, my first order of business would be to get it off of me.
It's not scummy.
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On July 15 2013 04:23 Umasi wrote:Show nested quote +It gives you a credible platform from which you can push your agenda
It reduces the mafia’s options for pushing their agenda - they can’t attack you without some serious consequences
It reduces the number of viable mafia candidates - if the town thinks you are innocent that’s one less person to worry about
the results are different than trying to "stay alive"
It reduces the mafia’s options for pushing their agenda - they can’t attack you without some serious consequences aka scum can't mislynch you
It reduces the number of viable mafia candidates - if the town thinks you are innocent that’s one less person to worry about aka town won't mislynch you
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On July 15 2013 04:27 Rainbows wrote:
Super calling jrkirby probably town...
What's your point?
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On July 15 2013 04:37 Umasi wrote:
But was he establishing his innocence to NOT GET LYNCHED or to PUSH TOWN AGENDA
And then was he not getting lynched because he's a scared townie who doesn't want to be lynched, or a scum who doesn't want to be lynched?
I think it's pretty obvious, going to be honest.
If there was a case on you when you first entered the thread, what would you do?
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I'm just going to post my response to hz's case
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EPT
