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On July 13 2013 08:19 Koshi wrote:
@Hurricane Sponge
Koshi: I am still learning on how to play the game properly. I am extremely bad at scumhunting. I get very easily annoyed by people saying that I am scum (I am working on this). I love fluff posts. I hate illogical posts but it seems that illogical does not mean you are scum, however, I am not planning on ever making an illogical post and when I do please call me on it.
As you can see, I got a lot of bad qualities that make me look scum all the time. However, I always prove that I am town by trying and hopefully this game I can prove it by actually nailing some scumreads.
@Koshi
Prove you're town by trying. Trying = posting.
What are your gut reactions to the thread so far? Give me your top 2 scum reads and top 2 town reads.
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On July 13 2013 16:40 Umasi wrote:
k, at this point, I can't really think of anything to talk about from your post, Sponge. I think Chrom is on the slightly townier side, xzav is more planet neutral, and kirby is not super towny, just by gut reads.
At this point I'm still happy with a StiM lynch though, but Superfluous is contesting it pretty hard. and depending on what nightcat says, I'll rethink him, but he's still ehhhhh.
I may just be judging people a little too quickly, but that's because I sit at my computer pretty much constantly being a lazy asshole with the thread open, refreshing every five minutes.
I'd be very grateful if you could provide the evidence that has you leaning town on Chrom for me. I want him to be town too because I think he is an extremely strong player, but that only gives me more pause when examining the uncharacteristic analysis mistakes he's made thus far.
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On July 13 2013 16:43 Umasi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 16:34 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 12:49 Chromatically wrote:This Stim thing doesn't make sense at all. Look at the chain of events: 1) Rainbow pressures Stim 2) Stim posts an angry response 3) Stim claims that his anger was due to formatting 4) Stim claims that he wasn't actually angry, and that he acted like it to get a reaction. 3 and 4 are incompatible. Stim is claiming that he was angry from the formatting, and then lied about his reasoning for doing it later. This doesn't make sense from a town perspective. On July 13 2013 11:55 StiMaDDict wrote:
I did respond quite aggressively and in an angry manner, even though I was not really angry at all. There were 2 purposes: 1) To see if Rainbow would 'flinch' 2) To establish myself to others as capable of defending myself. Conclusion: He didn't flinch and I did clear my name somewhat. I could have counter pressured to get some sort of read from Rainbow, however I didn't, because it IS early in the game and without proving myself as an active town, it would have a less of impact and leave a bad impression of me.
Town wouldn't say "There were 2 purposes" for their anger if they had just made up those purposes now. Town most certainly wouldn't say "I wasn't actually angry" if they were, like Stim is claiming he was now. ##Vote: StimI'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts. I could see a townie claiming that his anger was fabricated due to pride. It's embarrassing to admit you got mad for silly reasons to a group of strangers. Obviously that's not in the best interest of the game, but for some, ego will always come first. Actually, at fear of falling prey to meta~~~ He did do a similar thing in the mafia game I played with him, where I called out his post as scummy as he self voted. He basically returned to the thread to save face, (since he flipped town) so that wouldn't be out of line for him. In fact, it fits with what I know. -I am leery of meta though because the entire obs qt of the last game was like "meta bad!"
The only thing meta can tell us right now is that StiM has self-voted as town in the past. He is self-voting now. (The 'Meta Is Bad' counter-argument is that we have no way of knowing if scum StiM would self-vote.)
Based on his personality profile, we can assume that he is a player that tilts. I haven't seen any posts claiming that their read on the StiM self-vote is a ploy or trick to get pressure off him. There seems to be a pretty clear town consensus that he's just being petty (and in my opinion, that is alignment-neutral).
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On July 13 2013 16:46 Umasi wrote:
Because he was the first one to vote for StiM and if StiM flipped town, that would be extraordinarily suspicious.
1. Rainbows claimed credit for the StiM wagon.
2. Scum and Townie alike lead bandwagons all the time.
This is not good logic to me. And saying the 'general feel' of someone's posts is townie doesn't really help me here.
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On July 13 2013 16:46 Umasi wrote:
Because he was the first one to vote for StiM and if StiM flipped town, that would be extraordinarily suspicious.
I'll put it another way. If StiM flipped green, would you push for a Chrom lynch?
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On July 13 2013 17:01 Umasi wrote:
why is me thinking he's slightly towny a big deal though?
I wouldn't say it's a big deal. I just wanted to see what evidence you had gathered to make your read, because it's useful for the town if you can help us identify Chrom as town.
@Chrom:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 19:17 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +@Chrom: Can you explain what this post means? On July 13 2013 13:23 Chromatically wrote:
If everyone who just randomly popped out to soft call me sum could actually give their opinions on the situation, that'd be great. I also have a nitpick with this post: On July 13 2013 14:04 Chromatically wrote:
Yes, we'll technically never be able to totally disprove the possibility that Stim is town. It's just far less likely. Look at what Stim has done.
Lie about his anger
Town motivation: none
Scum motivation: screwed up the explanation because the anger was faked in the first place
Martyr
Town motivation: none, far more likely that he just explains
Scum motivation: knows he can't explain, so he acts emotional to get people to switch I feel like the anger was definitely real, and StiM was trying play play Mr. Cool Cat by claiming that he was really in control the whole time, and just pretended to be angry. Still not clear what that motivation could have been, but the above 2x2 leaves out some key points and I feel you're making a bit more assumptions that you usually do... Several people suddenly posted to tell Stim that I could be scum, and then didn't actually give an opinion on Stim. It was really wierd. You've brought up this same idea a few times about Stim trying to "act cool", but I don't see any particular reason to believe it. Why do you? As I've said before, there will always be a possibility of a town explanation, it's just less likely. If Stim is town, he'll return with a clear explanation. If you want to bring up meta, town should have lynched Stim in XLII. He could have easily been scum, and I said as much in the obs. A more convincing point is that Stim never reacted this way to pressure in XLIII, even though several votes were thrown on him over the course (if I remember). Hypothetical: If Stim doesn't return, what will you do?
If Stim hadn't have returned, I'd probably drop the issue entirely and focus my efforts elsewhere, anticipating a /replacement or mod action.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 19:28 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 16:29 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 16:02 Umasi wrote:
Alright, here, hurricane. Who do you think is worth voting at this time?
From your post, I got the gist that it'd be Superfluous or me. Is that correct? I'm still a bit mad at StiM for his post implying that it was our job to keep him entertained. I'm going to give myself some time to cool off on that, because I don't appreciate people quitting on my team (if he is in fact town). This is a time investment for everybody, and it's damn selfish of him to pack up his ball and go home after really light pressure. Townville: Kirby pressured me appropriately after my opener. I like that. He also seems to have the same attitude as me regarding the quick StiMwagon: On July 13 2013 13:31 jrkirby wrote:
2 votes land on a guy is quick succession, I'd be stupid if I weren't at least a BIT suspicious. As far as I can tell, stim is just acting like a bit of an idiot, is flustered, and frustrated. Doesn't seem like scumtell to me. You're free to have your vote, and I don't have a solid scumread on either of you, but I will be looking a bit more closely at your filters. hz is aggressively posting reads and seems to emulate my thoughts on the early Superfluous post: On July 13 2013 09:42 hzflank wrote:I think Jrkirby's and Sponge's opening posts had the same motivation: to get discussion moving. Both have done this and we have multiple discussions taking place. Since then, Sponge did a little coaching. Sponge has come under pressure from multiple people (for his opening post), and has dealt with it while being reasonably open. The only time that he has not been open is by refusing to post the other version of his opening post. Sponge did a little coaching again as he tried to stop Umasi from defending him. So far my read on Sponge has moved very slightly towards town. Since his opening, Jrkirby has attacked Sponge for his opening post, and done nothing else. That's fine because it is early and Jrkirby is pushing to get a reaction from someone. This is not scummy to me, null read. Umasi has defended Hurricane, which cannot be viewed as scummy at this point. Umasi has attacked Superfluous. I would say that this attack could be scummy as it is based on nothing, but it could just be to get Super to post more (he only has one post). Umasi then repeats that he thinks Super's post is scummy and votes for him. The problem I have with this is that Umasi claims Super's only post was scummy, when I do not think that it was. On July 13 2013 08:33 Superfluous wrote:
While I agree that we should lynch someone if they are super scummy, I'd like to point out that voting for no lynch is an option. Assuming I'm interpreting the rules/setup right, mafia only has 1 kp so there's no immediate motive for lynching such as reducing kp. It may be a stronger play to not lynch and hope that cop(if there is one) gets a turn to check before lynch. It is a risk though because I believe we are not guaranteed to have a cop. Just an idea I wanted to throw out and get your guys' thoughts on. If Umasi was looking for a reaction then I do not understand why he posted: On July 13 2013 08:59 Umasi wrote:
Where the hell are you. You popped in, gave a single post, that I think is scummy as crap, still haven't show back up. Pretty confusing, because the post you gave was irrelevant. How was Super's post scummy as crap? I do not think that Umasi is looking for scum, and if he is not just fishing for Super to respond then I think that Umasi is just looking for a neutral place to put his early vote. Unlike Jrkirby's, Umasi's vote is not a troll vote. I have a slight scum read on Umasi. Xzavier posted some decent thoughts (although he really didn't go out on any limbs): On July 13 2013 11:19 Xzavier wrote:On July 13 2013 08:33 Superfluous wrote:
While I agree that we should lynch someone if they are super scummy, I'd like to point out that voting for no lynch is an option. Assuming I'm interpreting the rules/setup right, mafia only has 1 kp so there's no immediate motive for lynching such as reducing kp. It may be a stronger play to not lynch and hope that cop(if there is one) gets a turn to check before lynch. It is a risk though because I believe we are not guaranteed to have a cop. Just an idea I wanted to throw out and get your guys' thoughts on. i know usami has touched on this, but i see voting for No-lynch is like sacrificing a townie or playing russian roullet for zero prize money. its just basically saying "i want to start this game a townie down" it seems silly to me, if somebody comes and gives me an ungodly reason for no-lynching ill hear it. but i see it as silly. Also from playing with usami before, hes a super fucking hyper aggressive person who needs like a single post to tunnel somebody for a full day, that can be bad. we need to keep our eyes open and looking at multiple people. As i learned my first game, a tunnel vision day1 can lead to a mislynch, or in this gametype, a no-lynch. Its far better to lynch scum, and thats what we should try to do. Even day1 we lynch either a lurker or our top scumread, if nobody has any strong scumreads, lynching the scummiest lurker is the best townplay day1. (it yields the highest chance of killing scum while creating the best pro-town enviroment) with that im also shocked of how active stim-addict is being. its nice to see a usual lurker picking it up leaving less for the scum to hide behind :D again, even Superfluous is at the top of my scumdar, he isnt high enough to deserve a vote yet. I want to lynch a lurker or superfluous depending on how he reacts to our posts and the events of the day. if the rest of it goes uneventful/no major scumslips i want to fuck up a lurker as i believe that to be the best pro-town action. Rainbows is active and is claiming credit for the StiM wagon. If StiM is town, as I suspect, I don't think scum would be claiming lead on an eventual green flip: On July 13 2013 15:43 Rainbows wrote:
Sponge, I started the whole Stim thing. Chrom just questioned both of us then pooped all over him with it :p Planet Neutral:I've found confusing material on Chrom that some may deem scummy (misrepresenting facts, leaping to conclusions, overblowing alignment-neutral mistakes). However, he also did his usual early game Poke'n'Prod, getting people to clarify their random claims that might otherwise have gone unchecked (very town). Umasi is incredibly active, and hunting. The logic leaps, confirmation bias, and clumsy attacks aren't really helping the town, however (other than to just provide really obvious pressure). If there was a shade between Green and Black, I'd use it because I think the three options for Umasi are 'Bad Town' 'Good Scum' and 'Good Town That I Just Have Trouble Reading For Whatever Reason'. Scum Central:Superfluous has a lot of ground to make up. I don't like people attacking him for his bad policy, but at the end of the day, that's not the only thing going against him. I really disagree with his reads, and that has to account for something: On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote:On July 13 2013 10:59 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 10:49 StiMaDDict wrote:
I may be biased but I put Chromatically as the most capable scumhunter. In last game, he pretty much had the whole scum team Day1. It goes without saying that I do not Chromatically's alignment as of right now.
@Chromatically Your current scum reads? Superfluous looks really bad, he's been apologetic in his posts (not trying to rock the boat) and has only said what others have already said. It looks like he's trying hard to find anything to post about because he wants to look active. On July 13 2013 10:05 Superfluous wrote:On July 13 2013 09:55 Umasi wrote:
Superfluous, do you have any current scum reads? At the moment no, as I said I was gone for a couple hours then came back and just skimmed through the thread . I mean to go through it again in more detail once I'm finished defending myself or w/e. Two things are on my mind though. One is that I think you are town (not just to suck up to you b/c you are pressuring me). Reasons being that in my personal experience those who are most aggressive are generally town, and also that this is a semi-noob game so I'm unsure if a mafia would have the confidence to go out and control the game/ put pressure on early on. Another thing is that I dont think I've seen much (if anything) from Cloud 9. He may be in same situation as me and I'll give him Benefit of the doubt though. It's extremely odd that he specifically points out Cloud-9 as opposed to any of the other players who haven't posted. This shows pretty clearly that he's not trying at all to find scum, he doesn't even know who hasn't posted. Also looking at Kirby. Lurkers be lurking. As I said I just skimmed over after returning. Cloud 9 was a name I didn't see when comparing the posts I saw to the player list, so I pointed it out. And I have been trying to get something to talk about other than what seem to be mini discussions between certain people. I also don't get why you're attacking me saying "I'm not trying to find scum". In my own post I said that I was going to look it over again and get reads, obviously meaning that I hadn't looked that hard for scum yet. Right now my biggest scum read is HZflank, because I still think Umasi is doing mostly pro town moves yet hz says its scummy. If it pushes to me actually being lynched I think that I'd still feel this way. He also had an early post or two that distracted somewhat from the discussion, which I'm always suspicious of. I'll give nightcat benefit of the doubt. It's a bit weird he showed up once his name came up but eh. I realize thats not really a great reason but seems like we're in semi-similar situations. Xzavier I'm more suspicious of, he didnt have many posts then in his first one he shows up saying he'll consider lynching me. It's really scummy play to lurk then show up ready to lynch imo. These are some wierd-ass wierd reads (formatted in a list, might I add...). You give town reads to a large number of people based on almost nothing? You say that me and Umasi are actively scumhunting, and then say we're null? All followed by a sheep on Super while waiting to commit to Stim. It all feels really odd. Why is xzavier more townie then Umasi/me? Why did you post town reads in the first place?
I'm surprised you do not agree with my reads. I shall re-evaluate them. You are Neutral to me for the reasons I mentioned: while you and Umasi are scumhunting (+), I believe you're doing it in an anti-town manner (-). That is: making logical leaps, confirmation bias, poor analysis. Scum can scumhunt too, and that's exactly how I imagine they'd do it. I also don't feel like I'm sheeping Superfluous. I raised some independent analysis regarding him in my earlier post (centering on the fact that our reads are very different, signifying a disconnect from my own POV that is significant enough to be Town-Scum). Are there any other glaring mistakes in particular you'd like to hear my thoughts on?
On July 13 2013 19:37 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 15:53 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 15:43 Rainbows wrote:
Sponge, I started the whole Stim thing. Chrom just questioned both of us then pooped all over him with it :p Chrom has made a couple missteps that I would consider 'uncharacteristic'. At the very least, they are poor play I did not expect from him. 1. His enthusiasm to lynch StiM after the blow-up (surely we can all see that it was more likely immature and pissy play from StiM and alignment-independent) contained logical leaks and overblows the importance of whether StiM lied about being mad or not. 2. Saying Superfluous was trying to not 'make waves' when he was the lone voice speaking up for an unpopular policy (Day 1 No Lynch) More importantly, when viewed as a whole, the bolded section above is a big stop sign on my vote to lynch StiM: Why would scum not alert StiM that everyone and their mother knew the jokepost was a joke and let him carry on in this manner? He'd have to be willfully disobeying his team, or (more likely) flying solo. If someone can give me a satisfactory answer to that, I'd feel much better about a StiM lynch. 1) You seem confident that Stim's blowup was alignment independent, can you address my earlier posts about why it's more likely from scum? I think it's pretty hard to overblow the importance of someone lying about their motivation without being able to explain it. You disagree? 2) The apologetic tone is the entire reason why Super looks bad. He's trying not to draw attention to himself and not to incite anyone (scummy). The Nolynch thing is totally non alignment indicative, which you should know. Explain your scumread on Super more.
On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:59 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 10:49 StiMaDDict wrote:
I may be biased but I put Chromatically as the most capable scumhunter. In last game, he pretty much had the whole scum team Day1. It goes without saying that I do not Chromatically's alignment as of right now.
@Chromatically Your current scum reads? Superfluous looks really bad, he's been apologetic in his posts (not trying to rock the boat) and has only said what others have already said. It looks like he's trying hard to find anything to post about because he wants to look active. On July 13 2013 10:05 Superfluous wrote:On July 13 2013 09:55 Umasi wrote:
Superfluous, do you have any current scum reads? At the moment no, as I said I was gone for a couple hours then came back and just skimmed through the thread . I mean to go through it again in more detail once I'm finished defending myself or w/e. Two things are on my mind though. One is that I think you are town (not just to suck up to you b/c you are pressuring me). Reasons being that in my personal experience those who are most aggressive are generally town, and also that this is a semi-noob game so I'm unsure if a mafia would have the confidence to go out and control the game/ put pressure on early on. Another thing is that I dont think I've seen much (if anything) from Cloud 9. He may be in same situation as me and I'll give him Benefit of the doubt though. It's extremely odd that he specifically points out Cloud-9 as opposed to any of the other players who haven't posted. This shows pretty clearly that he's not trying at all to find scum, he doesn't even know who hasn't posted. Also looking at Kirby. Lurkers be lurking. As I said I just skimmed over after returning. Cloud 9 was a name I didn't see when comparing the posts I saw to the player list, so I pointed it out. And I have been trying to get something to talk about other than what seem to be mini discussions between certain people. I also don't get why you're attacking me saying "I'm not trying to find scum". In my own post I said that I was going to look it over again and get reads, obviously meaning that I hadn't looked that hard for scum yet. Right now my biggest scum read is HZflank, because I still think Umasi is doing mostly pro town moves yet hz says its scummy. If it pushes to me actually being lynched I think that I'd still feel this way. He also had an early post or two that distracted somewhat from the discussion, which I'm always suspicious of. I'll give nightcat benefit of the doubt. It's a bit weird he showed up once his name came up but eh. I realize thats not really a great reason but seems like we're in semi-similar situations. Xzavier I'm more suspicious of, he didnt have many posts then in his first one he shows up saying he'll consider lynching me. It's really scummy play to lurk then show up ready to lynch imo.
I really don't like that last part where he gives one lurker the FoS, but a second one a free pass in the same post. I don't like that his reads seem diametrically opposed to mine, which implies a significant difference in frame-of-reference. I don't like his case on HZ (which is a case in name only). I don't like that he's suspicious of townies who enter the thread willing to lynch.
On July 13 2013 21:48 Chromatically wrote:
Sponge, could you also elaborate on you Umasi read?
As I told Umasi late last night when we were the only two in the thread, I love his scumhunting, but I cringe at his methods. He's got a big problem with confirmation bias and attacking his target when he should just be poking, bringing the level of discourse down into the mud too soon. Like I said in the earlier post, I think he's Green-Black: Bad Town, Good Scum, or Good Town That I Just Can't Read. The early game aggression is much preferred to the alternative (lurking), but if he keeps some of these traits up into the late game, I'm worried for town.
Moving on:
On July 13 2013 21:54 Koshi wrote:I am from Belgium guys, This game started at 12PM and I was tired after a working week. I read the thread once now and my initial (this is without using filters, just reading all the posts) is that H.Sponge build enough town kred to not get lynched day 1 no matter what. I loved his opening post, and I loved his defense on that post. Even if he is scum, he has been very helpful to town, and every town should go and read that opening post. Scum reads are on Umasi and Chroma. Umasi because his entire early posts were just sucking up to H.Sponge, which is just not useful at all, H. Sponge clearly doesn't need to be defended like this. Another thing I dont like about Umasi is him trying to redirect the thread twice for a Superfluous train on a rather useless moment. Superfluous entered the thread with a bad post, but went afk after, which is not a clear scumread. Not enough the get a train going, and make the rest of the day useless. Chroma is currently tunneling so heavily on StiMaDDict. The guy is afk, treat him as an afk bad town till he comes back. It is a good thing to spark some conversation around StiMaDDict, but at this point I feel that Chroma is derailing more than necessarily. It's just tunneling into oblivion. I start filtering now: Reading Chroma his filter I get a serious scum vibe. Post like this: Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 11:39 Chromatically wrote:
Also just noticed that Sponge hasn't given a single opinion on anyone all game after saying that he wanted people to judge him on his scumhunting, interesting. This is just being a jack-ass, at least it would be if you say things like this in real life. In mafia it is trying to put suspicion onto somebody without saying anything. I haven't crosschecked this message with the referring Sponge message but it feels dirty. What was your intention while typing this down Chromo? @ Chromo, Do you agree that this is a very suspicious post? And explain to me why it is "interesting" that Sponge likes to have interaction on his scumreads while playing this game? Reading Umasi his filter after the Chroma filter makes me want to lynch one of these 2 guys. Umasi and Chroma are either bromancing it up on the stimaddict lynch, or they are both scum. Here is Umasi his game till now: --> Defend Sponge while pushing lynch on Superfluous. --> Argue with Sponge about Chroma while pusing a lynch on StiMaDDict.
I hate Umasi and Chrom as lynch targets for Day 1. Town does not want to lynch guys this active and scumhunting this hard. Regardless of the fact that I think Superfluous is scummier at this point, I'd push for a Lurker lynch over one of either of Umasi or Chrom.
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Current Events:
I think StiM's case on Kirby is weak. Lots of fallacies in there. Everything quoted is interpreted single-mindedly as scum, and even the stuff that's pro town is justified as 'this is clearly scum trying to look town'.
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On July 14 2013 02:14 Rainbows wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2013 01:51 StiMaDDict wrote:*sigh I fucked up. @Chromatically: You let me down and I let you down. I don't really know. I had a shitty day. I was pissed off at other things and I tried to let my stresses go away by posting on here. Then you blew it. Your nitpicking on whether I was angry or not and whether I was lying or not was really under my expectation. I think I gave you WAY TOO much credit from last game. Also you keep saying that I can't explain my so-called lie, but I did, god damn it. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 12:19 StiMaDDict wrote:Show nested quote +Note to all: + Show Spoiler +btw, I'm really trying to stay active. Sometimes I write really slow and I might be answering something that is couple of pages back. Sometimes I write one liners. My bad. + Show Spoiler +If you don't like it, well fuck you This. Pretty much repeating what Xzavier did in the last game, calling everyone retard, was from me being genuinely mad. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 09:34 StiMaDDict wrote:
My bad, guys.
Got pissed for no reason. Spoilers and quotes kept getting messed up. Overall attitude in my posts and impolite words in them were for the purpose I have stated. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 11:55 StiMaDDict wrote:
I did respond quite aggressively and in an angry manner, even though I was not really angry at all. There were 2 purposes: 1) To see if Rainbow would 'flinch' 2) To establish myself to others as capable of defending myself. Conclusion: He didn't flinch and I did clear my name somewhat. I could have counter pressured to get some sort of read from Rainbow, however I didn't, because it IS early in the game and without proving myself as an active town, it would have a less of impact and leave a bad impression of me. Do note: I'm not a good actor and I am not sure whether there was a clear boundary between me being mad because of quotes and spoilers and pretending to be mad at Rainbow. I was not bothered by Rainbow's pressure to put it simply and it is not in my best interest to lie about this. On July 13 2013 12:24 StiMaDDict wrote:
My previous post looks confusing.
1) I was mad at messing up posts but not at Rainbow
2) My anger reflected on my posts
3) Later when I realized that my posts were angry sounding I gave them purposes and maintain similar style.
I hope this explains it better. Not sure if this is a relevant topic though. First one wasn't clear enough so I wrote the second. I had a shitty day, alright, so I wrote some cuss words on the Internet. It wasn't something that I was proud of but it happened. So I tried to cover it up as if it was intentional with purposes and purposes they did accomplished. If you want to argue about when I came up with the idea, well, why don't dissect my brain and see. Gosh, you pissed me off. @jkirby: What you doing? + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 07:41 jrkirby wrote:Ok. I've been studying this long and hard, and I think I have enough evidence to make a clear case. hzflank is scumShow nested quote +On July 09 2013 04:04 hzflank wrote:On July 09 2013 03:22 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 09 2013 03:20 hzflank wrote:On July 09 2013 02:13 Stutters695 wrote:Obligatory USE YOUR COACHESWe're great guys and here to help  With WoS as the scum coach, I do not think that town will need your assistance. Uh, ouch? Need I remind you that you won a game with Ace as the scum coach too? I meant it as a compliment. Sometimes the greatest players are the worst coaches because you just cannot teach pure brilliance. Clearly, hzflank is lying about this compliment. Liars are always scum. And look who he's talking to: the scum coach. Obviously he's in league with them. He goes on, still talking to the scum: Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 04:22 hzflank wrote:On July 09 2013 04:09 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
If you vote for an hzflank lynch based on pregame meta, I will fall instantly in love with you. Then scum should night kill the first person to vote for me, because as their lover you will also die. This is an obvious admission that he wants town to die. Anyone who wants town to die is scum, end of story. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 04:19 hzflank wrote:On July 13 2013 04:09 Chromatically wrote:
I won't be here for two hours after start. Then who will call my first post scummy?  I will. Right here, right now. And for his first post: Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 07:11 hzflank wrote:
So we are using a majority vote system. As we all know there is much more chance of a No Lynch with this system than with plurality voting.
I think it is in our best interest to try to lynch someone every day. This may seem a bit odd at first, because a mis-lynch is obviously better for scum than for town. However, the only way that town will win is by lynching scum, and we will never be sure if we are lynching town or scum unless the lynch actually goes through. If we narrowly fail to lynch then we end up spending the next day discussing it and do not move forward as much.
Also, scum already know who they are. When someone is lynched the alignment information from their flip benefits town, but not scum.
Therefore, I suggest we work together as much as possible to actually get lynches through, if they are in doubt. He's trying to get us to sheep together and follow a Bandwagon instead of looking for evidence and finding scum. Finally: Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 07:31 hzflank wrote:On July 13 2013 07:26 Koshi wrote:
Are there experienced players here? People that played a decent amount of games. Everyone here has played 3 or less games. On July 13 2013 07:24 Koshi wrote:
Hi all. I played 1 newbie game in the TL+ forums and I am atm also playing in the nuclear mafia game.
I am with Rainbows on the lynching of lurkers. The tl+ game got RUINED because nobody posted. So if you are town, I want you to make around 10 posts a day. Try to make posts that are aggressive and confront people with your thought. Don't be afraid to be wrong. If you are town, please consider doing this to help town and force scum to make posts.
I think it is a bit early to be thinking about policy lynches on lurkers. Policy lynching can stifle discussion and we need discussion today. Once we get 24-36 hours in then we can consider it. Also, sometimes RL just happens for a day or two. Also, I think that there will be enough activity here. There are several players who I know will post a lot and we (the active players) cannot all die really early. Trying to defend one of the scum who is planning to lurk. You can't ignore all this evidence guys. hzflank is scum. ##Vote: hzflank He makes a pressure vote on hzflank and he never followed up on it at all. Yes, it did create a discussion between Rainbow and I, but not much from hzflank. He never provided his motive, explanation, or response after he made that one post. We know he was around when Rainbow and I were duking it out. Am I the only crazy one here and it's a normal thing to do with a pressure vote? If the purpose of the pressure vote is create a discussion why didn't he take a part? He takes it down couple of pages later basic saying that it didn't do much except getting some discussion. jkirby on Hurricane is basically this in my eyes: Your first post makes you look town. I think you post this AS A SCUM. If you are not, then show us your other post. Darn, it's too late now. I follow the thought process but it doesn't do much. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 09:35 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 09:30 StiMaDDict wrote:On July 13 2013 09:22 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 09:14 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 09:10 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:57 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:54 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:42 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:33 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:03 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
The following was written on the contingency I got Town in my role PM. I generally don't like early Day 1 town conversations because it's 100% fluff and teasing and clouds the filters. Necessary evil? Perhaps. But let's try to kick this game into overdrive early, shall we?
Why did you include this? Are you saying you wouldn't have posted this if you were scum? Correct. I would not have posted this particular post as scum. On July 13 2013 08:46 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:43 Rainbows wrote:On July 13 2013 08:41 Umasi wrote:
[quote]
I certainly wouldn't post that if I were scum, it is nothing but a good thing for town. Why WOULD he want to post that as scum? to look town. Scum love to spew general pro town thingsvto get ez town cred.. This is correct. In general, these sorts of posts should result in a null read in a veteran game. But Early Day 1, when it's generally assumed nothing interesting is happening, seemed like a good time to get PSA's out of the way for a newbie crowd. The info is valuable, but it should not get me town cred. It's more important to me that there's a town consensus on the actual content of the post, not my alignment. (Plenty of time for that later.) You obviously think that your post was pro town, right? That's why you shouldn't have posted it as scum. But then you say that you shouldn't get town cred from it, indicating that you don't think it's pro town. ? Pro town in a newbie game, yes. Probably wouldn't have posted it in a Veteran game unless I really felt the Day 1 conversation stagnating early. I think all my posts are pro-town. Otherwise, why would I post them? (That should apply to everyone but those with a severe inferiority complex.) That doesn't answer the point. The point is that your logic is inconsistant. You say that you wouldn't have posted this as scum. Why? You think that the post is valuable enough to town that scum wouldn't want to post it. You think that only a townie would post it. However, you say that you shouldn't get a town read for it, even though you think that only town would post it. I'm not in the business of telling people I'm town. I'm going to scumhunt and try to win this game, and a byproduct of that should be that people will view me as town. Put another way: I don't believe posting specifically with the goal of acquiring towncred is particularly helpful in anything but circumstances where I could be mislynched. I'm prioritizing getting the Town ducks in a row here in the early going so we can move on to the scumhunt, not establishing my Townie-ness. Interestingly, people (Chrom and jrkirby) have seemed more interested in analyzing why I posted rather than what I posted. Can I infer by this that we largely agree with what I have said? Pretty much what you said was: meta is bad, this is the meta that I might accidentally do. That's fine, neither particularly good nor bad imo. But you claimed that you would only post it on the condition that you were town. You admit to having a post that you would post on the condition that you're scum (which I think is foolish), but you won't show it to us, and that's just a tiny bit suspicious. Seriously man.. this is the best you can do? If he has scum post, big deal. For all we know THIS could be his scum post. Who knows. Is this your first game jrkirby? "For all we know, THIS could be his scum post." That's exactly what I was trying to get information on. Here was my reasoning: if this is his scum post, then he won't HAVE a real scum post. But it's been long enough that he could've written another one by now, so no point in pushing it anymore.No, this is my second game, kinda. This starts jkirby's trend of hedging. He drops the pressure as soon as he feels as it has been too long and Sponge could've written a copy. He doesn't say Sponge is a town or scum because of this, which I find disturbing. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 09:46 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 09:41 Umasi wrote:On July 13 2013 09:35 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 09:30 StiMaDDict wrote:On July 13 2013 09:22 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 09:14 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 09:10 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:57 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:54 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:42 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
[quote]
Correct. I would not have posted this particular post as scum. On July 13 2013 08:46 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
[quote]
This is correct. In general, these sorts of posts should result in a null read in a veteran game. But Early Day 1, when it's generally assumed nothing interesting is happening, seemed like a good time to get PSA's out of the way for a newbie crowd.
The info is valuable, but it should not get me town cred. It's more important to me that there's a town consensus on the actual content of the post, not my alignment. (Plenty of time for that later.) You obviously think that your post was pro town, right? That's why you shouldn't have posted it as scum. But then you say that you shouldn't get town cred from it, indicating that you don't think it's pro town. ? Pro town in a newbie game, yes. Probably wouldn't have posted it in a Veteran game unless I really felt the Day 1 conversation stagnating early. I think all my posts are pro-town. Otherwise, why would I post them? (That should apply to everyone but those with a severe inferiority complex.) That doesn't answer the point. The point is that your logic is inconsistant. You say that you wouldn't have posted this as scum. Why? You think that the post is valuable enough to town that scum wouldn't want to post it. You think that only a townie would post it. However, you say that you shouldn't get a town read for it, even though you think that only town would post it. I'm not in the business of telling people I'm town. I'm going to scumhunt and try to win this game, and a byproduct of that should be that people will view me as town. Put another way: I don't believe posting specifically with the goal of acquiring towncred is particularly helpful in anything but circumstances where I could be mislynched. I'm prioritizing getting the Town ducks in a row here in the early going so we can move on to the scumhunt, not establishing my Townie-ness. Interestingly, people (Chrom and jrkirby) have seemed more interested in analyzing why I posted rather than what I posted. Can I infer by this that we largely agree with what I have said? Pretty much what you said was: meta is bad, this is the meta that I might accidentally do. That's fine, neither particularly good nor bad imo. But you claimed that you would only post it on the condition that you were town. You admit to having a post that you would post on the condition that you're scum (which I think is foolish), but you won't show it to us, and that's just a tiny bit suspicious. Seriously man.. this is the best you can do? If he has scum post, big deal. For all we know THIS could be his scum post. Who knows. Is this your first game jrkirby? "For all we know, THIS could be his scum post." That's exactly what I was trying to get information on. Here was my reasoning: if this is his scum post, then he won't HAVE a real scum post. But it's been long enough that he could've written another one by now, so no point in pushing it anymore. No, this is my second game, kinda. Why is there no point in pushing it? There's no reason to not push it if you think it was scummy, and if you were pushing it for the sake of having something to do, just go do something else. Still, more people, what do you think of Superfluous post and then disappearance? Me - "It's been long enough that he could've written another one by now." If he had posted one immediately after I had asked it means something different than if he posts one an hour or two after I asked. Superfluous's post & lurk is bad, but give him a bit, he might show back up. Umasi feels the same way it seems. Another excuse and nothing to indicate how he feels about Sponge as a result. The bold part is another hedging. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 09:58 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 09:53 Superfluous wrote:
To address some things, especially umasi I guess. I apologize for not answering sooner, the other forums I have played on move much slower and there arent 2 and a half pages of posts after being gone for just 3-4 hours. I would be annoyed at your pushing but I think in general its a good town move as it forces information out of people. All I was saying is that, to me, we have a higher chance of lynching town than mafia. We may also end up outing a role prematurely by pushing for a day one lynch. The games that I've played/followed where mafia has 1 kp it's standard to not lynch day one. Here there is no guarantee of cop so it's different, that's why I was asking about others' opinions and not saying we 100% should do it. Sorry if you felt my post was irrelevant but no one else had even pointed it out as an option. I feel like I'm just re stating what I already said in my previous post, not sure what else you want. I think it's foolish to PLAN to not lynch day one. But if I have a choice of lynching someone that I townread, and lynching no one, I will try to lynch no one. I hope other people would follow suit. This is his opinion. I don't agree with persay but it isn't really alignment indicative. It isn't a strong expression of opinion to be honest, just a "wish" (I added this because I didn't want to only pick out scummy things jkirby said and ignore rest of his filter) + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 10:13 jrkirby wrote:
Koshi
Xzavier
Nightcat99
Gotard
cloud-9
These players haven't posted anything/enough in my opinion. It's only been a couple hours, so you might be asleep/ at work. But just a PSA, these are currently "lurkers". Doesn't reveal his view on lurkers but just "throw" the topic of lurkers out on the table. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 10:22 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:18 Umasi wrote:
Does it really matter if we haven't seen things from other players at this point?
It's been two hours since the game began, some people could still be working, etc. The way you popped in, said one thing kinda suspicious, then popped out is what really irks me.
Don't apologize and talk about other forums as an excuse, excuses are bad. Reasons are fine, but that didn't feel like a reason to me.
We don't need to point out no lynching as an option, because it's BAD
No lynching is something that scum would LIKE.
I think I said it in the last game I played (too lazy to dig it up,) but the only tool a townie has is their vote, so don't waste it on something like a no lynch. There should always be someone who is objectively "scummiest" that you'd rather vote for than no lynch, have a little confidence. Well, this game is majority lynch, so voting for the "scummiest" person could be what causes a lynch not to happen. I'm pretty sure scum wouldn't mind lynching town either. General common sense. It's just me but I don't like this semi-joking statement. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 10:32 jrkirby wrote:Honestly? I have real trouble seeing scum until I see voting patterns. I'm slightly more suspicious of Sponge, Umasi, and Rainbows than the rest. Sponge I've stated my reasons for. I don't really trust my read on Rainbows because [meta here] I thought he was scum last time I played with him and he wasn't. Umasi just reads a bit ornery, so that could be the reason for my weak read.My vote on hzflank was kinda a combo of joke/pressure as you guys pointed out. It got a bit of discussion, but didn't get much of a rise out of hzflank, who I currently have null read on. I guess I should unvote him now, since the pressure obviously didn't do too much. ##unvote: hzflank A list of suspicion list that doesn't have "legitimate" reasons or evidence. So he does feel suspicious about Sponge afterall about him not sharing his opening post in time, I'm assuming. About Rainbow, I am not sure. He words in a confusing way. In last game, jkirby thought Rainbow was scum but he was a town. So in this game he thinks Rainbow is a town but he could be a scum or vise versa? Concerning Umasi, his reasoning it not satisfying either. Also he doubts his ability to read other people. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 11:03 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:32 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 10:23 Chromatically wrote:
Kirby, who do you think is scum? Honestly? I have real trouble seeing scum until I see voting patterns. I'm slightly more suspicious of Sponge, Umasi, and Rainbows than the rest. Sponge I've stated my reasons for. I don't really trust my read on Rainbows because [meta here] I thought he was scum last time I played with him and he wasn't. Umasi just reads a bit ornery, so that could be the reason for my weak read. My vote on hzflank was kinda a combo of joke/pressure as you guys pointed out. It got a bit of discussion, but didn't get much of a rise out of hzflank, who I currently have null read on. I guess I should unvote him now, since the pressure obviously didn't do too much. ##unvote: hzflank Why are you suspicious of Rainbows? What do you think about Super? Chromatically followed up asking why jkirby is suspicious of Rainbow and what he thinks of Super. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 11:56 StiMaDDict wrote:
Waiting on jkirby's response to Chromatically's question. I had same question as Chromatically and brought it back up. At the end, he still hasn't answered it at the time of me posting this. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 10:47 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:42 Rainbows wrote:
I play exactly the same as scum and town imo.
Last game was just me being frustrated and correct :p lol. You should fear the Rainbows. Anyone think this could be a scumslip? He seems the kind that might want to subtly brag about it if he were scum. I can never figure out when people are joking and not. This is just really fucking weak and gets on my nerve. If it is a joke, then fuck me. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 10:58 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:56 Umasi wrote:
He came in, emphasized his newness to the game, and it felt like he was giving excuses for not posting, not reasons.
(I realize that they're extremely similar, but I think it's a matter of tone)
the timing he came in at (right when we brought up lurkers) to be like "I'm trying not to lurk"
is just
kind of......weird?
I think it's out of place and scummy. He said he couldn't be in here at the beginning before the game started, right? No real reason to have suspicion on the lurkers yet, just note that they're lurking. This is pretty fucking bad. Protecting a lurker when he was the one to bring up the topic at all. I don't know what he is trying to do, but then again, I'm fucked up pretty hard with my playstyle.. Anyway, protecting not just one lurker but pretty much all of them and making an excuse for them makes me think he is a scum. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 13:21 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 13:14 StiMaDDict wrote:On July 13 2013 13:08 Umasi wrote:
Nightcat, the best way to establish innocence is to scum hunt, it's always time to scumhunt. Apparently I'm the scummiest fucking bastard in this game. Jump on board the StiM wagon and earn easy town cred! You know, I'm done. Contribute? Yeah fucking right. Sit in front of the computer for 6 fucking hours refreshing and trying to god damn contribute and what I get is "so you weren't angry but you pretended to be angry?" Town shouldn't lie about that. I wasn't fucking lying. Jesus. w/e. Cool it dude. For all you know, the people voting for you could be scum trying to get you riled up. Just calm down, post reads, question things, and have a good game. You won't play your best when you're tilting. You're in no way doomed right now. I guess I should thanks for his kind words (?) but as Chromatically has pointed out, he is trying to pat me on the head as if he is saying, "Chromatically and Umasi could scum you know. Come here, you poor baby." + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 13:31 jrkirby wrote:
2 votes land on a guy is quick succession, I'd be stupid if I weren't at least a BIT suspicious. As far as I can tell, stim is just acting like a bit of an idiot, is flustered, and frustrated. Doesn't seem like scumtell to me. You're free to have your vote, and I don't have a solid scumread on either of you, but I will be looking a bit more closely at your filters. No stand or point whatsoever. I'm not a scum. Chromatically and Umasi are not scum, but they are "bit" suspicious. What is your stance man? Stop hedging. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 13:38 jrkirby wrote:
I don't think he's town. I think he's stupid, and have a nullread. Well thanks, I think I'm stupid too. I'm not a town but you have a nullread on me? What was the purpose of writing above two posts then? Confused and scummy. I am not liking how he is dealing with me blowing up. He seems to be neither or both defending and pressuring in this situation. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 13:42 jrkirby wrote:
I don't think he's thinking through what he's saying. His actions don't seem town because they're foolish from every way you look at them. But that doesn't make him clearly scum. Hedging. Period. Conclusion: jkirby is my biggest scumread atm. He seems to be Onegue from XLII. Acting as if he is contributing but without actual content. He is not really expressing his reads and tend much more to hedge. He has not established a strong stance as a town and hasn't given clear reasons for his suspicion. ##Vote: jkirby Mmmm greetings stranger. I'm not surprised to see your kind around here... I like the case, esp the hedging point. +1
Can you explain which parts of the case are most compelling to you? I disagree with this case, and I'd like to hear from someone who buys into it.
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On July 14 2013 03:37 StiMaDDict wrote:Show nested quote +I hate Umasi and Chrom as lynch targets for Day 1. Town does not want to lynch guys this active and scumhunting this hard. Regardless of the fact that I think Superfluous is scummier at this point, I'd push for a Lurker lynch over one of either of Umasi or Chrom. Elaboration on this please. Specifically who do you consider Lurker at this point? Note: I agree that Umasi and Chromatically are bad lynch candidates
I consider Superfluous and Nightcat the most dangerous kind of 'lurkers' at this point. They've checked into the thread but haven't offered anything without being directly questioned first. Koshi and Gotard could have also fit this bill, but their activity is trending upwards. It seemed silly to call people out on activity level when the game opened on a Friday night, and now we're in the weekend, but since the deadline is going to come Sunday night, I guess it's starting to become relevant.
On July 14 2013 03:39 Koshi wrote:Super is not putting enough effort into this game, the annoying part is that his posts make that blatantly obvious. I would lynch him over 9-cloud. My policy on 0 posters is that they are mathematically town. Let them get modkilled or replaced, but never lynch.
Who would be your primary lynch candidtate at this time?
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On July 14 2013 04:20 Rainbows wrote:
Consider Gotard, he is mafia. Fairly inactive and scummy. Good lynch.
Just went filter diving on Gotard. Even in his list post he has yet to actually call anyone scummy. All he's done is confirm town reads. Mathematically, he thinks more people are town than is possible:
On July 13 2013 19:53 Gotard wrote:Hello! After some lurking (jk I was sleeping) i'd like to share my thoughts: 1) hzflank - cold, calculated. Null read. 2) StiMaDDict - bad town. It would be too easy if he's mafia. 3) Chromatically - I think he's pushing stim too hard (he's agressive in general) but at the same time it's good for town to see some bandwagons going 4) jrkirby - confuses me a little.But he has a similar view on StiMaDDict as i do. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 13:38 jrkirby wrote:
I don't think he's town. I think he's stupid, and have a nullread. 5) Koshi - inexperienced or lurking hard. 6) Xzavier - one good post Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 04:58 Xzavier wrote:
its fine, all i have to do is show supporting evidence and never try to make my own case on gotard. No wait, that one was good. Need to see some more activity from him to have a read. I don't agree that lynching lurker is better than no lynch (9v3 > 8v3) 7) Rainbows - A lot of posts with minimum impact seems more townie than mafia. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:42 Rainbows wrote:
I play exactly the same as scum and town imo.
wtf? 8) Nightcat99 - lurking newbie. 9) Umasi - Very aggressive same as last game I played with him (He was town). 11) Hurricane Sponge - biggest town read. Really liked this post. 12) Superfluous - Town vibe. 13) cloud-9 - US timezone and 0 posts.
@Gotard
You mention that your biggest scum reads thought StiM was town. Who are these 'biggest scum reads' you're referring to?
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On July 14 2013 04:29 Superfluous wrote:Going back through the posts, I'm a little alarmed at Hurricane Sponge's change of tone. In this post he disagrees with my opinion and says it casts suspicion on me, but doesnt state that I'm a huge scumread or anything. Here I interpreted his post as acknowledging that while we disagree, I was still trying to state my opinion and reasons for having that view. He then says some weird things here though. For instance, he says that he agrees with others' view of me who had semi-defended me, and in the same list puts me as the only scum read. I realize his view may have changed, but it strikes me especially considering in the second post I listed he acknowledged the possibility of a bandwagon on me just because of differing opinions. We also have a mutual disagreement on reads as well. I don't see how hzflank and xzavier have contributed substantially more than me. While knowing everyone's scum reads is good, I don't like it when people show up, say their scum reads, then expect other people to act on them. As for Stim I think he's more likely bad town then mafia. Then again everyone else is saying the same thing, so could be mafia excuse for not lynching him.
You still haven't shared any of your scumhunting with us. You're showing massive weakness to relationship / association theory (i.e. your suspicion of hz because he's suspicious of Umasi, your claim that because I agree with some of the views of people who happened to semi-defend you that I must think you're town, etc.)
I much prefer people who show up and share their scumreads than people not sharing scumreads (and reasoning for them) at all as I've seen from you so far. The only scumhunting I've seen from you is a weak FoS on hzflank, the reasoning being that he was suspicious of Umasi. I think you can agree this is not particularly compelling.
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On July 14 2013 04:51 Superfluous wrote:
I'm pointing out Sponge as a possibility as he has seemed to be clear from suspicion after jrkirby's early pressure. Xzavier is my biggest scum read atm for the reasons listed. I have a gut feeling and really have not liked the tone in his posts.
Quote a post, bold the relevant parts, and make a case. I don't feel a strong sense of direction from your posting. Scumhunt with purpose and you'll get the town's attention. Right now it just feels like you're 'hunting' to clear yourself from suspicion, not for the benefit of the Town.
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EBWOP: By which I mean it feels like you're saying 'jeez, i'm hunting, get off my back' not 'guys, I really think this guy is scum and we should be getting our votes on him now'
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On July 14 2013 05:32 Gotard wrote:
I didn't want to bring any names to the table because "my biggest scum reads" were weak because it was an early stage of the game and I wanted to stop Chromatically from tunneling Stim (saying my thoughts straight made me explaining myself for whole day in the last game I played and I would be lynched if mafia didn't make silly mistakes and few other townies said that i'm bad and not mafia. The same think i did with stim).
"All he's done is confirm town reads. Mathematically, he thinks more people are town than is possible:"
My "biggest" reads:
1) hzflank - cold, calculated. Null read.
4) jrkirby - confuses me a little. But he has a similar view on StiMaDDict as i do.
5) Koshi - inexperienced or lurking hard.
6) Xzavier - one good post [...] Need to see some more activity from him to have a read
8) Nightcat99 - lurking newbie.
13) cloud-9 - US timezone and 0 posts.
and Rainbows seemed really confusing.
you have some possible people to choose from...
You need to understand that if someone is 99.9% town for me he still might be mafia but it's highly unlikely and don't say "Mathematically" if you can't prove something "Mathematically" (you didn't even try rotfl).
Have you done anything to chase down these reads? None of this is an indictment of any of these players and it seems like you being confused is grounds for being scum in your eyes (your Rainbow and Kirby reads). You also list inexperience as scummy (with your koshi read). And then you list null reads in your scum list (hzflank).
I asked you for your scum reads at the time you posted that. This isn't a list of scum reads; it's a list of players in the game and gut reactions to each. Have you based none of this on actual post analysis or evidence?
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[QUOTE]On July 14 2013 05:18 Rainbows wrote:
Super sounds so scummy, or like he plays on epicmafia.com too much.
In either case we do need 7 votes to lynch today. if its a nl, imma be pissed.
/QUOTE]
Why do you think Super sounds scummy?
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On July 14 2013 05:47 Superfluous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 05:17 Umasi wrote:On July 14 2013 05:14 Superfluous wrote:
Admittedly I am giving reads more to get off my back than to help us. I'm trying to get reads, but nothing is super strong so I'm not going to jump to lynch someone. I would vote for xzavier right now because he's my strongest read, but thats because we have to vote not because I feel he's 100% scum It really hurts us to lynch town day one, which is the same reason I brought up the idea of no lynching, and the same reason I'm trying to relieve pressure from myself.
That said ##Vote Xzavier Because I'm going to a concert tonight and may be up late/ sleep in so I don't want to forget to vote. You could also be trying to relieve pressure from yourself because you're scum /gasp You literally just told us "I have not been scumhunting, I am just trying not to die" It goes without saying that I could be relieving pressure from myself because I'm mafia. If I pointed it out in my post it would just seem like I'm prematurely covering for myself and change nothing. Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say I haven't been scumhunting I said I haven't gotten a read a feel confident enough to push a lynch for. And obviously I'm trying not to die, everyone doesn't want to die day one regardless of alignment. Both because it would hurt your team and you wouldnt get to play as long.
Can you make a case on Xzavier? It seems like you have thread support (several people have mentioned they find Xzavier scummy).
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EBWOP:
@Superfluous
Also, you have to vote in the voting thread for it to count.
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On July 14 2013 05:56 Chromatically wrote:KirbyStim's case on Kirby takes a lot of stuff that's not scummy and says it is, but it also has good points (some of which are probably repeated here). Here's what I don't like: a) fluff about Sponge's first post b) wishy-washy reads c) lurker list d) Stim interactions a) fluff about Sponge's first postA large amount of Kirby's early posting is talking about Sponge's pregame post and trying to get him to post it. He only starts doing this light pressure AFTER I start it. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 08:33 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:03 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
The following was written on the contingency I got Town in my role PM. I generally don't like early Day 1 town conversations because it's 100% fluff and teasing and clouds the filters. Necessary evil? Perhaps. But let's try to kick this game into overdrive early, shall we?
Why did you include this? Are you saying you wouldn't have posted this if you were scum? Scum are always looking for some way to post so that they seem town without actually doing anything. This pregame thing is something VERY easy for scum to comment on and lightly push. He notices that I'm a little suspicious and seizes on it so that he can post something at all. Notice how very lightly he's pressuring: Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 08:48 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 08:47 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:46 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 08:42 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:33 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:03 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
The following was written on the contingency I got Town in my role PM. I generally don't like early Day 1 town conversations because it's 100% fluff and teasing and clouds the filters. Necessary evil? Perhaps. But let's try to kick this game into overdrive early, shall we?
Why did you include this? Are you saying you wouldn't have posted this if you were scum? Correct. I would not have posted this particular post as scum. But you might have posted another post starting with the same line. Or maybe you did post that as scum. But you certainly would never have said: The following was written on the contingency I got Scum in my role PM. Hahaha! Very right you are, I hadn't thought of that. So then show us the post that you would have posted if you rolled scum, eh? Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 09:03 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 08:54 Hurricane Sponge wrote:Umasi, stop defending me. Don't defend people in general. It's more valuable to hear them defend themselves by tenfold. (Also, I don't want you handcuffing yourself to my ankle then flipping scum and having Town waste a bunch of time re-vetting me.) On July 13 2013 08:48 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 08:47 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:46 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 08:42 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:33 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:03 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
The following was written on the contingency I got Town in my role PM. I generally don't like early Day 1 town conversations because it's 100% fluff and teasing and clouds the filters. Necessary evil? Perhaps. But let's try to kick this game into overdrive early, shall we?
Why did you include this? Are you saying you wouldn't have posted this if you were scum? Correct. I would not have posted this particular post as scum. But you might have posted another post starting with the same line. Or maybe you did post that as scum. But you certainly would never have said: The following was written on the contingency I got Scum in my role PM. Hahaha! Very right you are, I hadn't thought of that. So then show us the post that you would have posted if you rolled scum, eh? This is a very reasonable request, but unfortunately I will not be posting it at this time for a couple reasons. First, it's not as impressive as the one I posted. Second, I intend to stay active in this community and will probably end up using a version of it at some point when (if?) I ever get that 'You Are Scum' PM. You ought to post it anyway. Having something that you'd post on the condition that you're scum is foolish in any respect, even if no one knows what it is. Ideally, a scum player would want to post the same way as scum as they do town in almost all situations. The first one is a conversational question, the second one is a suggestion. When I pressure someone I think is suspicious, I don't "suggest" things to them and tell them "what they ought to do". He doesn't actually care about getting the post, he just wants to look like he does.b) wishy-washy readsShow nested quote +On July 13 2013 09:22 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 09:14 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 09:10 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:57 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:54 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:42 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:33 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:03 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
The following was written on the contingency I got Town in my role PM. I generally don't like early Day 1 town conversations because it's 100% fluff and teasing and clouds the filters. Necessary evil? Perhaps. But let's try to kick this game into overdrive early, shall we?
Why did you include this? Are you saying you wouldn't have posted this if you were scum? Correct. I would not have posted this particular post as scum. On July 13 2013 08:46 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:43 Rainbows wrote:On July 13 2013 08:41 Umasi wrote:On July 13 2013 08:33 Chromatically wrote:
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Why did you include this? Are you saying you wouldn't have posted this if you were scum?
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I'd be very interested in hearing your explanation as to why you honestly think this is scummy. I certainly wouldn't post that if I were scum, it is nothing but a good thing for town. Why WOULD he want to post that as scum? to look town. Scum love to spew general pro town thingsvto get ez town cred.. This is correct. In general, these sorts of posts should result in a null read in a veteran game. But Early Day 1, when it's generally assumed nothing interesting is happening, seemed like a good time to get PSA's out of the way for a newbie crowd. The info is valuable, but it should not get me town cred. It's more important to me that there's a town consensus on the actual content of the post, not my alignment. (Plenty of time for that later.) You obviously think that your post was pro town, right? That's why you shouldn't have posted it as scum. But then you say that you shouldn't get town cred from it, indicating that you don't think it's pro town. ? Pro town in a newbie game, yes. Probably wouldn't have posted it in a Veteran game unless I really felt the Day 1 conversation stagnating early. I think all my posts are pro-town. Otherwise, why would I post them? (That should apply to everyone but those with a severe inferiority complex.) That doesn't answer the point. The point is that your logic is inconsistant. You say that you wouldn't have posted this as scum. Why? You think that the post is valuable enough to town that scum wouldn't want to post it. You think that only a townie would post it. However, you say that you shouldn't get a town read for it, even though you think that only town would post it. I'm not in the business of telling people I'm town. I'm going to scumhunt and try to win this game, and a byproduct of that should be that people will view me as town. Put another way: I don't believe posting specifically with the goal of acquiring towncred is particularly helpful in anything but circumstances where I could be mislynched. I'm prioritizing getting the Town ducks in a row here in the early going so we can move on to the scumhunt, not establishing my Townie-ness. Interestingly, people (Chrom and jrkirby) have seemed more interested in analyzing why I posted rather than what I posted. Can I infer by this that we largely agree with what I have said? Pretty much what you said was: meta is bad, this is the meta that I might accidentally do. That's fine, neither particularly good nor bad imo. But you claimed that you would only post it on the condition that you were town. You admit to having a post that you would post on the condition that you're scum (which I think is foolish), but you won't show it to us, and that's just a tiny bit suspicious. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 09:46 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 09:41 Umasi wrote:On July 13 2013 09:35 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 09:30 StiMaDDict wrote:On July 13 2013 09:22 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 09:14 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 09:10 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:57 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:54 Chromatically wrote:
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You obviously think that your post was pro town, right? That's why you shouldn't have posted it as scum.
But then you say that you shouldn't get town cred from it, indicating that you don't think it's pro town.
? Pro town in a newbie game, yes. Probably wouldn't have posted it in a Veteran game unless I really felt the Day 1 conversation stagnating early. I think all my posts are pro-town. Otherwise, why would I post them? (That should apply to everyone but those with a severe inferiority complex.) That doesn't answer the point. The point is that your logic is inconsistant. You say that you wouldn't have posted this as scum. Why? You think that the post is valuable enough to town that scum wouldn't want to post it. You think that only a townie would post it. However, you say that you shouldn't get a town read for it, even though you think that only town would post it. I'm not in the business of telling people I'm town. I'm going to scumhunt and try to win this game, and a byproduct of that should be that people will view me as town. Put another way: I don't believe posting specifically with the goal of acquiring towncred is particularly helpful in anything but circumstances where I could be mislynched. I'm prioritizing getting the Town ducks in a row here in the early going so we can move on to the scumhunt, not establishing my Townie-ness. Interestingly, people (Chrom and jrkirby) have seemed more interested in analyzing why I posted rather than what I posted. Can I infer by this that we largely agree with what I have said? Pretty much what you said was: meta is bad, this is the meta that I might accidentally do. That's fine, neither particularly good nor bad imo. But you claimed that you would only post it on the condition that you were town. You admit to having a post that you would post on the condition that you're scum (which I think is foolish), but you won't show it to us, and that's just a tiny bit suspicious. Seriously man.. this is the best you can do? If he has scum post, big deal. For all we know THIS could be his scum post. Who knows. Is this your first game jrkirby? "For all we know, THIS could be his scum post." That's exactly what I was trying to get information on. Here was my reasoning: if this is his scum post, then he won't HAVE a real scum post. But it's been long enough that he could've written another one by now, so no point in pushing it anymore. No, this is my second game, kinda. Why is there no point in pushing it? There's no reason to not push it if you think it was scummy, and if you were pushing it for the sake of having something to do, just go do something else. Still, more people, what do you think of Superfluous post and then disappearance? Me - "It's been long enough that he could've written another one by now." If he had posted one immediately after I had asked it means something different than if he posts one an hour or two after I asked. Superfluous's post & lurk is bad, but give him a bit, he might show back up. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:32 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 10:23 Chromatically wrote:
Kirby, who do you think is scum? Honestly? I have real trouble seeing scum until I see voting patterns. I'm slightly more suspicious of Sponge, Umasi, and Rainbows than the rest. Sponge I've stated my reasons for. I don't really trust my read on Rainbows because [meta here] I thought he was scum last time I played with him and he wasn't. Umasi just reads a bit ornery, so that could be the reason for my weak read. My vote on hzflank was kinda a combo of joke/pressure as you guys pointed out. It got a bit of discussion, but didn't get much of a rise out of hzflank, who I currently have null read on. I guess I should unvote him now, since the pressure obviously didn't do too much. ##unvote: hzflank This is just generic wishy-washiness and unwillingness to commit to reads. Townies have at least some scum reads that they provide to the thread and push, at least a little. Kirby hasn't pushed a scumread all game. Kirby hasn't even had a scumread that he couldn't easily back out of. As scum, Kirby can easily justify a vote on anyone now because he doesn't have any reads out there. c) lurker listShow nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:13 jrkirby wrote:
Koshi
Xzavier
Nightcat99
Gotard
cloud-9
These players haven't posted anything/enough in my opinion. It's only been a couple hours, so you might be asleep/ at work. But just a PSA, these are currently "lurkers". This should be pretty obvious, but lurker lists are scummy in general. Everyone knows who hasn't posted. There's no reason to post something like this as town, it's totally useless. Scum sometimes do stuff like this because they really really want to look useful. Scum think that lists like this will look pro town and give them something to post about so that they seem active. d) Stim interactionsShow nested quote +On July 13 2013 09:32 jrkirby wrote:
Keep your cool stim, rainbows just misinterpreted your post, that's all. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 13:21 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 13:14 StiMaDDict wrote:On July 13 2013 13:08 Umasi wrote:
Nightcat, the best way to establish innocence is to scum hunt, it's always time to scumhunt. Apparently I'm the scummiest fucking bastard in this game. Jump on board the StiM wagon and earn easy town cred! You know, I'm done. Contribute? Yeah fucking right. Sit in front of the computer for 6 fucking hours refreshing and trying to god damn contribute and what I get is "so you weren't angry but you pretended to be angry?" Town shouldn't lie about that. I wasn't fucking lying. Jesus. w/e. Cool it dude. For all you know, the people voting for you could be scum trying to get you riled up. Just calm down, post reads, question things, and have a good game. You won't play your best when you're tilting. You're in no way doomed right now. Kirby consoles Stim twice during the game. Read both of these (especially the second one), and ask yourself why does it seem like Kirby KNOWS that Stim is town?Look at that second quote. "You won't play your best when you're tilting." There's not a HINT of doubt in that post that Stim is town. That's not something that you post to someone that you're even slightly suspicious of. "Well this makes sense if he has a town read on Stim, right?" Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 13:38 jrkirby wrote:
I don't think he's town. I think he's stupid, and have a nullread. Apart from the simple fact that he's trying to leave his options open to switch on the wagon later, this is COMPLETELY at odds with his subconscious attitude toward Stim in the previous conversation. ##Unvote##Vote: jrkirby
a.) Generally, I'm more forgiving of fluff in the beginning (as I think most of us are). The sheeping pressure is much more concerning to me. I'm willing to write off his repeated request for my scumpost as curiosity, but there's literally no reason I can think of that a Townie would want another Townie to post what he would have posted as scum. It would just clutter the thread, and pressing it as hard as he did after I gave the reasons I wouldn't post is strange to me.
b.) His only unique analysis that I can find in his filter is attempting to chase down my contingency post and then awkwardly hollering at the thread about a Rainbows 'scumslip' that was clearly a jokepost:
On July 13 2013 10:47 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:42 Rainbows wrote:
I play exactly the same as scum and town imo.
Last game was just me being frustrated and correct :p lol. You should fear the Rainbows. Anyone think this could be a scumslip? He seems the kind that might want to subtly brag about it if he were scum.
He makes a very subjective personality read and projects that into an alignment read. (Hint: THIS IS BAD PLAY) I'd say that he was just trying to put some pressure on Rainbows, but again there is zero follow-up.
Regardless, on the point of wishy-washy reads, everyone who clicks his filter would agree with Chrom's assessment.
c.) Attention Town: Chrom hates lists. Don't post lists in Chrom games. Personally, I don't find lists intrinsically scummy, but a list of lurkers sure isn't content. It's easy to incorporate a PSA like this into a scumhunting post, so I can't explain town motivation for posting a list of lurkers other than if they were thinking they were somehow doing a favor to the community in a newbie game. Weak post.
d.) I don't agree with part of Chrom's analysis here. I see a very human motivation for posting in this fashion: When addressing someone directly, you're more likely to frame your dialogue as if they were town. When answering questions ABOUT a person, you are more honest about how scummy you think they are. I don't think Kirby was posting as if he knew StiM was town; I think he was just addressing him as town out of basic human respect for the volitile situation.
However, I'm very glad Chrom included point 'd' in his case because it pointed out the fact that he did try to comfort StiM on two occasions without actually having a Town read on him. To me, the concern with this point is that Kirby swooping in to try to calm the situation down only serves to stifle the conversation. StiM flipping out was giving us great reads and the more he posted, the more it revealed about himself and his attackers. I wouldn't want to calm StiM (or anyone) down! I want people to flip out, because there is truth in anger. If he were angry scum, it makes him easier to tag if he's rageposting. If he's angry town, those emotions will be relatable and we should be able to tell if they are genuine.
Kirby does follow-up with the stock good advice for a player on tilt (play the game, tell us your reads, don't be on tilt, etc.), but I have a hard time giving him town cred for this.
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On July 14 2013 06:24 Chromatically wrote:
No no no, it's not an association at all. That's actually my favorite part of the whole thing.
If Kirby KNOWS that Stim is town, then he is 100% scum. That is a fact, not a preflip association.
Kirby's interactions with Stim make it seem like he either KNOWS, or he STRONGLY SUSPECTS that Stim is town. However, he doesn't suspect this at all, he has a null read.
I'll admit, that was my favorite part too. I would be really proud of climbing that deep into a scum mind. That kind of inconsistency in attitudes feels rare. It's juicy, but I don't think it can be the only evidence. Fortunately, it's not. The lack of conviction combined with lurkiness make Kirby a strong lynch candidate to me.
##vote: jrkirby
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EBWOP: To bring up a point from hz that I fell in love with, the only 'green mark' I can come up with for kirby is his jokepost where he made a 'case' on hzflank. That would be a pretty weird opening post as scum, but I can think of a couple different justifications for it, so it's not a deal-breaker.
Compared to the 4 or 5 'red marks' he's accumulated from various sources, I feel comfortable putting my vote on him.
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On July 14 2013 07:11 Koshi wrote:
@hzflank
That is a really impressing post. I would give you a cookie but I will give you this instead.
##Vote: Superfluous
I also like the kirby case but kirby hasn't posted in the last 20 hours. So I am reluctant to put my vote on him. Kirby has proven that he can make big analytical posts or at least is willing to do so. He has proven that he can pick up on 1 scummier sentence in a big convincing pro town post. So I would like to give kirby the chance to do this before I put my vote on him.
What?! Find one. Now. Please.
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EPT
