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On June 19 2013 06:30 Hurricane Sponge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 03:01 fferyllt wrote:
I'm overextended in mafia games at MS at the moment, with 8 games in progress where I am still alive. When the 'newbie games' have players in them that are currently playing 8 SIMULTANEOUS games of mafia, it makes me nervous about signing up.
From the same post:
On June 19 2013 03:01 fferyllt wrote:
I probably won't play another newbie game. Mostly I wanted to get better with the user interface and the game thread layout.
Generally speaking the majority of players in the newbie games are as inexperienced as everyone else in the game with them. This game was an exception apparently. 
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On June 19 2013 06:30 Hurricane Sponge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 03:01 fferyllt wrote:
I'm overextended in mafia games at MS at the moment, with 8 games in progress where I am still alive. When the 'newbie games' have players in them that are currently playing 8 SIMULTANEOUS games of mafia, it makes me nervous about signing up.
yabbut I'm playing with Ents. This game was a very nice change of pace.
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On June 19 2013 06:36 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 06:30 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On June 19 2013 03:01 fferyllt wrote:
I'm overextended in mafia games at MS at the moment, with 8 games in progress where I am still alive. When the 'newbie games' have players in them that are currently playing 8 SIMULTANEOUS games of mafia, it makes me nervous about signing up. From the same post: Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 03:01 fferyllt wrote:
I probably won't play another newbie game. Mostly I wanted to get better with the user interface and the game thread layout.
Generally speaking the majority of players in the newbie games are as inexperienced as everyone else in the game with them. This game was an exception apparently.
Yeah, I think the random numbers were unkind to the scum team in that respect.
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On June 19 2013 06:42 fferyllt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 06:36 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 19 2013 06:30 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On June 19 2013 03:01 fferyllt wrote:
I'm overextended in mafia games at MS at the moment, with 8 games in progress where I am still alive. When the 'newbie games' have players in them that are currently playing 8 SIMULTANEOUS games of mafia, it makes me nervous about signing up. From the same post: On June 19 2013 03:01 fferyllt wrote:
I probably won't play another newbie game. Mostly I wanted to get better with the user interface and the game thread layout.
Generally speaking the majority of players in the newbie games are as inexperienced as everyone else in the game with them. This game was an exception apparently. Yeah, I think the random numbers were unkind to the scum team in that respect.
They tend to be more often than not around here. Too many really good town players and too few really good scum players for it to be otherwise, newbie or not.
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Were the scum at a disadvantage here even if yavanna stayed around and skills were equal, because town had 3 blues and scum really had only one because with no cop the GF is just a goon right?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On June 19 2013 17:58 Onegu wrote:
Were the scum at a disadvantage here even if yavanna stayed around and skills were equal, because town had 3 blues and scum really had only one because with no cop the GF is just a goon right?
Mafia had a roleblocker too, and the blue roles weren't the most powerful ever. Seems not too bad.
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The mafia roleblocker action went before the JK, so, I think it was pretty even.
I remember hearing that MS games tend to be more townsided than TL games. I sort of expected town in this game to have the Blue equivalent of a rusty spoon and to have to depend primarily on daytime scumhunting.
I think town could have figured this out even if my JK actions went more astray, but it would have been a squeaker for whichever side won.
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On June 19 2013 23:04 fferyllt wrote:
The mafia roleblocker action went before the JK, so, I think it was pretty even.
I remember hearing that MS games tend to be more townsided than TL games. I sort of expected town in this game to have the Blue equivalent of a rusty spoon and to have to depend primarily on daytime scumhunting.
I think town could have figured this out even if my JK actions went more astray, but it would have been a squeaker for whichever side won.
This game, scum got some bad breaks. Not being able to find a replacement for Yavanna screwed them up pretty badly, and they were all very new players, compared to town who had 3 mafiascum veterans (sometimes RNG works that way). I think that impacted the game quite a bit more than the blue balance, which I still don't see much of a problem with.
The setup I had in mind was a Hatter, a Masoner and 1 out of 4 roles at random (JK, Vet, Cop or Medic) versus the scumteam we had. I thought about a scum Masoner, but I figured that by D2 or D3, someone would know there were 2 masoners and it would be easy to see that one of them must be town and the other scum (I also thought of giving town 2 masoners just to fuck with that logic ).
Also, the lack of a cop doesn't mean the godfather is useless. It allows you to play a certain way simply by KNOWING that a cop check will show you green, regardless of the presence of actual cops.
But... both of my last newbie games the town won fairly handily (as opposed to the first one I hosted, which scum won with a flawless victory), I might have to ramp it up for the next time 
EDIT: and in other, totally unrelated news, the new True Blood episode was absolutely terrible. Even with my low expectations for it.
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On June 19 2013 23:26 Acrofales wrote:
Also, the lack of a cop doesn't mean the godfather is useless. It allows you to play a certain way simply by KNOWING that a cop check will show you green, regardless of the presence of actual cops.
Go on, explain that one ^^
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On June 19 2013 23:40 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 23:26 Acrofales wrote:
Also, the lack of a cop doesn't mean the godfather is useless. It allows you to play a certain way simply by KNOWING that a cop check will show you green, regardless of the presence of actual cops.
Go on, explain that one ^^
Mafia doesn't know if there is a cop or not?
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On June 19 2013 23:26 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 23:04 fferyllt wrote:
The mafia roleblocker action went before the JK, so, I think it was pretty even.
I remember hearing that MS games tend to be more townsided than TL games. I sort of expected town in this game to have the Blue equivalent of a rusty spoon and to have to depend primarily on daytime scumhunting.
I think town could have figured this out even if my JK actions went more astray, but it would have been a squeaker for whichever side won. This game, scum got some bad breaks. Not being able to find a replacement for Yavanna screwed them up pretty badly, and they were all very new players, compared to town who had 3 mafiascum veterans (sometimes RNG works that way). I think that impacted the game quite a bit more than the blue balance, which I still don't see much of a problem with. The setup I had in mind was a Hatter, a Masoner and 1 out of 4 roles at random (JK, Vet, Cop or Medic) versus the scumteam we had. I thought about a scum Masoner, but I figured that by D2 or D3, someone would know there were 2 masoners and it would be easy to see that one of them must be town and the other scum (I also thought of giving town 2 masoners just to fuck with that logic ). Also, the lack of a cop doesn't mean the godfather is useless. It allows you to play a certain way simply by KNOWING that a cop check will show you green, regardless of the presence of actual cops. But... both of my last newbie games the town won fairly handily (as opposed to the first one I hosted, which scum won with a flawless victory), I might have to ramp it up for the next time EDIT: and in other, totally unrelated news, the new True Blood episode was absolutely terrible. Even with my low expectations for it.
I was kind of wondering why you didn't include a SK though..
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On June 19 2013 23:26 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 23:04 fferyllt wrote:
The mafia roleblocker action went before the JK, so, I think it was pretty even.
I remember hearing that MS games tend to be more townsided than TL games. I sort of expected town in this game to have the Blue equivalent of a rusty spoon and to have to depend primarily on daytime scumhunting.
I think town could have figured this out even if my JK actions went more astray, but it would have been a squeaker for whichever side won. This game, scum got some bad breaks. Not being able to find a replacement for Yavanna screwed them up pretty badly, and they were all very new players, compared to town who had 3 mafiascum veterans (sometimes RNG works that way). I think that impacted the game quite a bit more than the blue balance, which I still don't see much of a problem with. The setup I had in mind was a Hatter, a Masoner and 1 out of 4 roles at random (JK, Vet, Cop or Medic) versus the scumteam we had. I thought about a scum Masoner, but I figured that by D2 or D3, someone would know there were 2 masoners and it would be easy to see that one of them must be town and the other scum (I also thought of giving town 2 masoners just to fuck with that logic ). Also, the lack of a cop doesn't mean the godfather is useless. It allows you to play a certain way simply by KNOWING that a cop check will show you green, regardless of the presence of actual cops. But... both of my last newbie games the town won fairly handily (as opposed to the first one I hosted, which scum won with a flawless victory), I might have to ramp it up for the next time EDIT: and in other, totally unrelated news, the new True Blood episode was absolutely terrible. Even with my low expectations for it.
I'm not sure how much of a problem Yavanna's absence was, really. I had planned to do whatever I could to either determine she was town or get her lynched on day 2. She went to the back burner when she didn't show up. If day 2 had ended with her lynch instead of lonemeow it would have been better for town than the mislynch plus the modkill.
Maybe I would have failed to get her lynched. But unlike day 3, I had a very clear target and goal in mind to start with, and wound up floundering about because that target never showed up.
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On June 20 2013 00:29 Gotard wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 23:40 marvellosity wrote:On June 19 2013 23:26 Acrofales wrote:
Also, the lack of a cop doesn't mean the godfather is useless. It allows you to play a certain way simply by KNOWING that a cop check will show you green, regardless of the presence of actual cops.
Go on, explain that one ^^ Mafia doesn't know if there is a cop or not?
I was after how exactly he thinks the godfather can play, safe in the knowledge of being checked green. The only answer I can easily think of is "scummily" which would get you lynched anyway.
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you could act bat shit crazy maybe
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On June 20 2013 00:34 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 00:29 Gotard wrote:On June 19 2013 23:40 marvellosity wrote:On June 19 2013 23:26 Acrofales wrote:
Also, the lack of a cop doesn't mean the godfather is useless. It allows you to play a certain way simply by KNOWING that a cop check will show you green, regardless of the presence of actual cops.
Go on, explain that one ^^ Mafia doesn't know if there is a cop or not? I was after how exactly he thinks the godfather can play, safe in the knowledge of being checked green. The only answer I can easily think of is "scummily" which would get you lynched anyway.
It's a mindset thing. Scum doesn't know if there's a cop or not and lives in perpetual fear of that evil red check. Even if there was not a godfather, they would fear the cop, because he might be there anyway. The godfather allows you to play more freely (ironically making you less likely to be cop checked, because you are probably speaking your mind more, which is generally a townie thing to do).
It also allows for big plays (such as needlessly fakeclaiming). Big plays tend to attract cop attention (if they don't get you lynched). By having the extra buffer of protection from investigative roles, big plays become safer for mafia.
To make myself clear... one of the reasons mafia tend to get caught is because they are afraid of multiple things; getting lynched, getting vig shot, getting checked by cops. And they try to make "safe" posts that fly under all those threats' radar... which over the run of the game get seen, because someone making only safe posts is probably not doing anything obviously townie (like yelling like a stupid idiot that someone who is obviously town is scum). By taking away one of the things mafia is afraid of, it changes their mindset: "I'm the godfather, I can get away with that shit!". Now I know that there are players who don't have that problem. Risen, for instance, is excellent scum, because he will go all batshit crazy and take gambles that people don't associate with scum at all. Marv is good scum, because regardless of his alignment he will attempt to be town leader (and when he doesn't want to be town leader he gets yelled at and called scum, regardless of his alignment). But typical scumplay is to run scared and try to blend, which, imho, godfather can help with.
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On June 20 2013 00:43 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 00:34 marvellosity wrote:On June 20 2013 00:29 Gotard wrote:On June 19 2013 23:40 marvellosity wrote:On June 19 2013 23:26 Acrofales wrote:
Also, the lack of a cop doesn't mean the godfather is useless. It allows you to play a certain way simply by KNOWING that a cop check will show you green, regardless of the presence of actual cops.
Go on, explain that one ^^ Mafia doesn't know if there is a cop or not? I was after how exactly he thinks the godfather can play, safe in the knowledge of being checked green. The only answer I can easily think of is "scummily" which would get you lynched anyway. It's a mindset thing. Scum doesn't know if there's a cop or not and lives in perpetual fear of that evil red check. Even if there was not a godfather, they would fear the cop, because he might be there anyway. The godfather allows you to play more freely (ironically making you less likely to be cop checked, because you are probably speaking your mind more, which is generally a townie thing to do). It also allows for big plays (such as needlessly fakeclaiming). Big plays tend to attract cop attention (if they don't get you lynched). By having the extra buffer of protection from investigative roles, big plays become safer for mafia.
That's a pretty intangible psychological benefit ('playing freely') and then something pretty niche (fakeclaims). I'd hazard if you looked at all the times mafia fake-claimed, the godfather would not be over-represented.
If I had to speculate, I'd say godfather was even under-represented, because of the risk (often largely psychological) of losing "our godfather".
For balancing purposes, a scumteam with a godfather when there isn't a cop is the same as a scumteam with a goon instead (in my opinion ^^).
Not to say I find your game imbalanced btw. Just as a general point.
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On June 20 2013 00:50 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 00:43 Acrofales wrote:On June 20 2013 00:34 marvellosity wrote:On June 20 2013 00:29 Gotard wrote:On June 19 2013 23:40 marvellosity wrote:On June 19 2013 23:26 Acrofales wrote:
Also, the lack of a cop doesn't mean the godfather is useless. It allows you to play a certain way simply by KNOWING that a cop check will show you green, regardless of the presence of actual cops.
Go on, explain that one ^^ Mafia doesn't know if there is a cop or not? I was after how exactly he thinks the godfather can play, safe in the knowledge of being checked green. The only answer I can easily think of is "scummily" which would get you lynched anyway. It's a mindset thing. Scum doesn't know if there's a cop or not and lives in perpetual fear of that evil red check. Even if there was not a godfather, they would fear the cop, because he might be there anyway. The godfather allows you to play more freely (ironically making you less likely to be cop checked, because you are probably speaking your mind more, which is generally a townie thing to do). It also allows for big plays (such as needlessly fakeclaiming). Big plays tend to attract cop attention (if they don't get you lynched). By having the extra buffer of protection from investigative roles, big plays become safer for mafia. That's a pretty intangible psychological benefit ('playing freely') and then something pretty niche (fakeclaims). I'd hazard if you looked at all the times mafia fake-claimed, the godfather would not be over-represented. If I had to speculate, I'd say godfather was even under-represented, because of the risk (often largely psychological) of losing "our godfather". For balancing purposes, a scumteam with a godfather when there isn't a cop is the same as a scumteam with a goon instead (in my opinion ^^). Not to say I find your game imbalanced btw. Just as a general point.
I generally agree. The godfather wasn't counted as a power role for the scumteam for balancing purposes. But I do think it can help with mindset.
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On June 20 2013 00:52 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 00:50 marvellosity wrote:On June 20 2013 00:43 Acrofales wrote:On June 20 2013 00:34 marvellosity wrote:On June 20 2013 00:29 Gotard wrote:On June 19 2013 23:40 marvellosity wrote:On June 19 2013 23:26 Acrofales wrote:
Also, the lack of a cop doesn't mean the godfather is useless. It allows you to play a certain way simply by KNOWING that a cop check will show you green, regardless of the presence of actual cops.
Go on, explain that one ^^ Mafia doesn't know if there is a cop or not? I was after how exactly he thinks the godfather can play, safe in the knowledge of being checked green. The only answer I can easily think of is "scummily" which would get you lynched anyway. It's a mindset thing. Scum doesn't know if there's a cop or not and lives in perpetual fear of that evil red check. Even if there was not a godfather, they would fear the cop, because he might be there anyway. The godfather allows you to play more freely (ironically making you less likely to be cop checked, because you are probably speaking your mind more, which is generally a townie thing to do). It also allows for big plays (such as needlessly fakeclaiming). Big plays tend to attract cop attention (if they don't get you lynched). By having the extra buffer of protection from investigative roles, big plays become safer for mafia. That's a pretty intangible psychological benefit ('playing freely') and then something pretty niche (fakeclaims). I'd hazard if you looked at all the times mafia fake-claimed, the godfather would not be over-represented. If I had to speculate, I'd say godfather was even under-represented, because of the risk (often largely psychological) of losing "our godfather". For balancing purposes, a scumteam with a godfather when there isn't a cop is the same as a scumteam with a goon instead (in my opinion ^^). Not to say I find your game imbalanced btw. Just as a general point. I generally agree. The godfather wasn't counted as a power role for the scumteam for balancing purposes. But I do think it can help with mindset.
Irritating that the godfather had to leave the game, else we could ask her to comment on your hypothesis :D
You might well be right with the mindset thing I guess, it's not something I can empathise with terribly well though (you came out the blocks running as mafia too, if I'm not mistaken)
edit: arguably while she was here, she did play the most 'free'. I have a feeling my sample size may be a little small though
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On June 20 2013 00:55 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 00:52 Acrofales wrote:On June 20 2013 00:50 marvellosity wrote:On June 20 2013 00:43 Acrofales wrote:On June 20 2013 00:34 marvellosity wrote:On June 20 2013 00:29 Gotard wrote:On June 19 2013 23:40 marvellosity wrote:On June 19 2013 23:26 Acrofales wrote:
Also, the lack of a cop doesn't mean the godfather is useless. It allows you to play a certain way simply by KNOWING that a cop check will show you green, regardless of the presence of actual cops.
Go on, explain that one ^^ Mafia doesn't know if there is a cop or not? I was after how exactly he thinks the godfather can play, safe in the knowledge of being checked green. The only answer I can easily think of is "scummily" which would get you lynched anyway. It's a mindset thing. Scum doesn't know if there's a cop or not and lives in perpetual fear of that evil red check. Even if there was not a godfather, they would fear the cop, because he might be there anyway. The godfather allows you to play more freely (ironically making you less likely to be cop checked, because you are probably speaking your mind more, which is generally a townie thing to do). It also allows for big plays (such as needlessly fakeclaiming). Big plays tend to attract cop attention (if they don't get you lynched). By having the extra buffer of protection from investigative roles, big plays become safer for mafia. That's a pretty intangible psychological benefit ('playing freely') and then something pretty niche (fakeclaims). I'd hazard if you looked at all the times mafia fake-claimed, the godfather would not be over-represented. If I had to speculate, I'd say godfather was even under-represented, because of the risk (often largely psychological) of losing "our godfather". For balancing purposes, a scumteam with a godfather when there isn't a cop is the same as a scumteam with a goon instead (in my opinion ^^). Not to say I find your game imbalanced btw. Just as a general point. I generally agree. The godfather wasn't counted as a power role for the scumteam for balancing purposes. But I do think it can help with mindset. Irritating that the godfather had to leave the game, else we could ask her to comment on your hypothesis :D You might well be right with the mindset thing I guess, it's not something I can empathise with terribly well though (you came out the blocks running as mafia too, if I'm not mistaken) edit: arguably while she was here, she did play the most 'free'. I have a feeling my sample size may be a little small though
Yeah she did play the most free. She appeared to be actively trying to infiltrate the nascent town bloc. Those were the behaviors that caught my eye. Softball questions to obvtown Xzav. And pushing Umasi to the outskirts.
The Gotard bandwagon injected a ton of wifom into the game. It would have been disastrous to just lynch through that wagon.
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On June 20 2013 00:55 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 00:52 Acrofales wrote:On June 20 2013 00:50 marvellosity wrote:On June 20 2013 00:43 Acrofales wrote:On June 20 2013 00:34 marvellosity wrote:On June 20 2013 00:29 Gotard wrote:On June 19 2013 23:40 marvellosity wrote:On June 19 2013 23:26 Acrofales wrote:
Also, the lack of a cop doesn't mean the godfather is useless. It allows you to play a certain way simply by KNOWING that a cop check will show you green, regardless of the presence of actual cops.
Go on, explain that one ^^ Mafia doesn't know if there is a cop or not? I was after how exactly he thinks the godfather can play, safe in the knowledge of being checked green. The only answer I can easily think of is "scummily" which would get you lynched anyway. It's a mindset thing. Scum doesn't know if there's a cop or not and lives in perpetual fear of that evil red check. Even if there was not a godfather, they would fear the cop, because he might be there anyway. The godfather allows you to play more freely (ironically making you less likely to be cop checked, because you are probably speaking your mind more, which is generally a townie thing to do). It also allows for big plays (such as needlessly fakeclaiming). Big plays tend to attract cop attention (if they don't get you lynched). By having the extra buffer of protection from investigative roles, big plays become safer for mafia. That's a pretty intangible psychological benefit ('playing freely') and then something pretty niche (fakeclaims). I'd hazard if you looked at all the times mafia fake-claimed, the godfather would not be over-represented. If I had to speculate, I'd say godfather was even under-represented, because of the risk (often largely psychological) of losing "our godfather". For balancing purposes, a scumteam with a godfather when there isn't a cop is the same as a scumteam with a goon instead (in my opinion ^^). Not to say I find your game imbalanced btw. Just as a general point. I generally agree. The godfather wasn't counted as a power role for the scumteam for balancing purposes. But I do think it can help with mindset. Irritating that the godfather had to leave the game, else we could ask her to comment on your hypothesis :D You might well be right with the mindset thing I guess, it's not something I can empathise with terribly well though (you came out the blocks running as mafia too, if I'm not mistaken) edit: arguably while she was here, she did play the most 'free'. I have a feeling my sample size may be a little small though
This was her first scumgame ever, so she wouldn't have much comparison material anyhow
As you say, it's a hypothesis. It'd take some serious weeding through the mafia database to even start to see whether that is actually how it works. I can't remember what game gave me this idea... Kita's play in Bastard recently reinforced it, but that is a pretty bad reason: 1. he was a death-godfather, not an actual one and 2. Kita is a pretty good player in his own right, and Bastard was a completely crazy stupid game in any case.
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EPT
