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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On April 16 2013 15:48 syllogism wrote:
Sandro thought my filter looked towny after the first 24 hours, but like I said, my activity dropped while it became apparent our team wasn't interested in playing the game (except Oats).
Yeah, I thought you looked somewhat townie in the first half of Day 1. But then your activity and involvement tailed off. It's simply likelier that this would happen if you were mafia and not town. As the day went on, there were other reasons:
- continued lack of what i consider your 'usual' insight. this is pretty subjective.
- I had to ask you about MA/raynmaster's argument; you said they looked like townies but they should do more productive things. Now, even if they were both townies, I would expect a town syllo to have taken the initiative to say this himself, without needing me to ask.
- it became pretty clear to the thread that we were heading for a mislynch on FMB, yet you brushed it off. This was totally compounded by the fact that sandroba came in going "well this looks like a townie mislynch!". I know you're not the same person but this showed remarkable dissonance.
I said to VE in QT after the nuke launched that I hoped to god you were mafia because I'd be really disappointed if you were town. Now I'm aware you don't play for my approval, but that's just general impressions of a filter. Like in Fruity when you unvoted me because you looked at a mafia filter of mine and noted it looked quite different.
One other personal thing was when you complained there wasn't a case against you. I remember you telling Foolish in Parallels that cases are only needed if town needs convincing and if all of town thinks someone is mafia then a case isn't really necessary.
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Oh, and I'm curious what you guys think of the format, hydras specifically. Do you enjoy playing in a hydra? Did you think the setup was balanced? I know Marv expressed that he believes hydras to strongly favour town. What kind of setup would you think would be balanced here? I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts.
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Closed setup, no flips or multiple mafia factions are the options in my opinion. Not a huge fan of no flips nor multiple mafia factions, but balancing the setup with just roles isn't likely to lead to satisfactory conclusions. You have to remove information from town without actively misleading them.
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Sorry for our team for playing really really bad. I honestly had no time to do anything at all due to very busy weekend. We also had no time to discuss anything with Oats. I thought the game would start later than it did.. :/
Probably the worst game i have ever played.
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GG, thanks for hosting, already been said that scum needed more activity.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On April 16 2013 21:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Oh, and I'm curious what you guys think of the format, hydras specifically. Do you enjoy playing in a hydra? Did you think the setup was balanced? I know Marv expressed that he believes hydras to strongly favour town. What kind of setup would you think would be balanced here? I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts.
I don't think this is a good game to judge setup balance on. We had a cohost confirmed town d1 and the scumteam failed.
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On April 16 2013 23:09 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 21:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Oh, and I'm curious what you guys think of the format, hydras specifically. Do you enjoy playing in a hydra? Did you think the setup was balanced? I know Marv expressed that he believes hydras to strongly favour town. What kind of setup would you think would be balanced here? I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts. I don't think this is a good game to judge setup balance on. We had a cohost confirmed town d1 and the scumteam failed.
I've hosted two now though and both scum teams fell over very easily. It wasn't the confirmed town that did it this game either.
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Well yes I like hydra games. They make it so you can play even if you are busy or take a few days off if you need to. Also if you can't be there for a flip your partner can be.
Maybe one less power role for town, so in this game it would be one nuke for scum and one nuke for town.
In this game there was no defender, but everyone thought there was one. This made it impossible for scum to use their nuke.
So I think hydra games are good and they can be balanced by making power roles more scum favored.
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Yeah; hydra just gives you so much confidence, as you can mason check your reads.
Its super powerful.
Maybe scum need the 2 nukes; and town has 1 nuke ; 1 anti nuke.
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The game has to be about the lynch, not nukes. Nukes just switch the focus and don't really add much to the hydra format. If you want a game with nukes, just make it a normal, slightly bigger game and balance the hydra format with something else.
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11589 Posts
On April 16 2013 22:02 syllogism wrote:
Closed setup, no flips or multiple mafia factions are the options in my opinion. Not a huge fan of no flips nor multiple mafia factions, but balancing the setup with just roles isn't likely to lead to satisfactory conclusions. You have to remove information from town without actively misleading them.
I had this same thought.
You have to give mafia more tools for misdirection or the ability to manipulate information, otherwise it will be very hard for town to lose.
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I think the defender role was important though as it added an extra dimension into the game that wouldn't be there otherwise. It made nukes function more like a lynch so that you had to justify it to use it. Even though in the end it turned out there was no defender, it added to the game, though perhaps it was a bit too town favoured. Nevertheless, I like the concept.
That you enjoyed the game is the most important thing. If people like hydra games I'll be happy to make more, so that input is welcome as well. Balancing will be difficult though. I'm still not sure where the proper line for balance is.
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In general open and semi-open setups are way too common on TL. Not sure why hosts think town needs all that information, although I realize that it advertises something about your format so it may be easier to get signups.
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On April 16 2013 23:29 syllogism wrote:
The game has to be about the lynch, not nukes. Nukes just switch the focus and don't really add much to the hydra format. If you want a game with nukes, just make it a normal, slightly bigger game and balance the hydra format with something else.
Yeah, I'll separate the nuke thing and satisfy my craving for nuclear holocausts in a different game. I am still curious as to how to balance a hydra setup properly though. I'm thinking of something like 2 mislynches for scum to win vs 3 lynches for town to win, but that's quite a bit quicker for a scum team to win.
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I didn't like the defender role because it forced mafia to guess whether it existed or not. If we launched a nuke at some townie, it would get shot down and confirm another townie and to a lesser degree the person the nuke was aimed at. Mafia anti-nuker should have been a possibility too then if that was really necessary OR mafia should have been told whether the role is present in the game.
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Artanis: it's not just about the number of mislynches; fewer mislynches means more variance and thus less emphasis on skill. I think giving mafia a janitor or even making the game completely no-flip is better.
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On April 16 2013 23:35 syllogism wrote:
I didn't like the defender role because it forced mafia to guess whether it existed or not. If we launched a nuke at some townie, it would get shot down and confirm another townie and to a lesser degree the person the nuke was aimed at. Mafia anti-nuker should have been a possibility too then if that was really necessary OR mafia should have been told whether the role is present in the game.
The idea was to convince town that said townie should be nuked because he looks scummy, then nuke him. It wasn't meant to be a guessing game of does-town-have-a-defender-or-not, but about persuasion much like you pursuade people to put a townie up for lynch.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
I detest the idea of hiding flips :/
A closed setup could work though. Town not knowing what to expect would help.
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Not no flip! Everyone likes flips.
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How about giving mafia a role that lets them day kill hydra heads =P
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EPT
