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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
On April 05 2013 04:39 Dandel Ion wrote: He will have a town-aligned target that he needs to get lynched in order to win. So what happens if he successfully gets they guy lynched? Does the game end? If not, does the lyncher die? If not, what is his motivation to continue playing? | ||
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sciberbia
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sciberbia
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On April 05 2013 08:58 Palmar wrote: I say we lynch you on day one. How would you like that? ##Vote sciberbia Getting lynched makes it less likely that my win condition is fulfilled, so I'm opposed to your idea of lynching me. Palmar, do you think that longer days are in general a boon to town (as opposed to shorter days)? It seems to me like the optimal town strategy in this setup is to take like a week on each lynch (or longer). Logically, the more filter you have to go through, the easier it is to get an accurate read on somebody. The only downside is that people will at some point lose interest. But I think in general the longer the day the better. What say you? | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 05 2013 09:14 Palmar wrote: Just to throw it out there sciberbia also started the only other game I've played with him (he was scum) with a random thought about the setup/strategy. In both cases he asks someone else to confirm that he has a good idea: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17284265 <--- here I think we have a winner. My strategy as scum (as I explained in the post-game) was to try to play exactly as I do as town. The reason that I posted setup speculation as scum is precisely because that is what I usually do as town. I tend to start the game by inviting discussion on the setup because imo it is the best (only?) way to get people meaningfully talking about something actually relevant to the game. The alternative way of generating discussion, as you are demonstrating, is to wait until someone else makes a post and then attack them for it, but I don't tend to form scumreads off someone's first post, and I don't like to lie about my reads, hence discussion on setup. | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 05 2013 09:33 marvellosity wrote: I'm somewhat concerned that Palmar gave a serious reason for not wanting to vote Ace. I don't follow your logic. You think Palmar is scum because he isn't trolling? On April 05 2013 09:36 raynpelikoneet wrote: Wanna kill WoS? Why are you not concerned into this matter rather than Palmar/Ace? Why don't you explain why you want to kill WoS.. | ||
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sciberbia
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I don't think the suspicion on iamperfection is warranted. I'm leaning town on him based on the attention he drew to himself early in the game. First of all, he drew attention to himself by consistently pushing Ace as a serious lynch and making a big deal out. He also confronts various other people like rayn, dp, prplhz, marv + Show Spoiler + On April 05 2013 10:43 iamperfection wrote: i was pretty clear on why ace is scummy. list right now your lack of reading comprehension is concerning but you seem interested at least so ill put you down as stupid town for now. On April 05 2013 11:37 iamperfection wrote: so would you rather i sit here with my thumb up my ass. On April 05 2013 11:42 iamperfection wrote: and if thats the case dp why did you bother to post at all? On April 05 2013 21:42 iamperfection wrote: why does it look like ace isnt get lynched? what has he done to make you think he is not scum? Why are you being passive? Why are you not pushing for what you want? why am i forced to ask these questions? are you scum? Also, note the timestamps on his posts. Many them are multi-line, confrontational posts (which actually say something) literally written within a minute of the quote that he is responding to. Even when he is under pressure from Palmar/marv, he is very spontaneous. According to Oats, Iamp hasn't played scum in a while, and I doubt whether he'd be confident enough in his scum play to be so spontaneous, aggressive, and attention-drawing right out the gate. I'm not sure how I feel about the point brought up by Palmar/marv that his push on Ace feels too energetic. I agree the vigor he shows is odd, but overall I feel he is more likely to be town for it for reasons I stated above. Oatsmaster My best guess at scum right now is Oatsmaster. His first three posts immediately caught my attention because they were all piggy-backing off things already said in the thread, and all contributed to a negative town-atmosphere. + Show Spoiler + On April 05 2013 14:06 Oatsmaster wrote: holy fucking shit like 9 pages of inane banter. Im not treating any of rayn's posts as serious attempts to get anyone lynched. no reads :/ On April 05 2013 14:10 Oatsmaster wrote: Rayn, Give at least like a paragraph with reasoning before you ask others. WHY DONT YOU LYNCH WOS? HUHUHHUUH!!!. On April 05 2013 16:33 Oatsmaster wrote: WHY WOULD YOU POST THEN? Did you at least skim the thread? I think scum often want to promote the idea early D1 that there is nothing to go on and that town is playing badly etc, so this is a bit suspicious to me. Also, I don't like that I think each and every sentence of his first three posts was echoing a previous thought in the thread made by somebody else. Seems like a very safe way to start the game. The rest of his filter is ok but I don't feel like he is trying especially hard to figure out the game. He's been in the thread a long time, but a lot of his posts are off-topic or don't really go anywhere. It also bothers slightly that he originally stated he had "no reads". Then when asked to look at my filter, he said that all three of my posts looked scummy to him and now he thinks I am scum. So either he -- just glossed over the thread before stating that he had no reads -- changed his mind on my 3 posts from null to significantly scummy on second look I don't think a townie is especially likely to do either. Oats, maybe you can explain which it is here. | ||
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sciberbia
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sciberbia
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On April 06 2013 02:16 marvellosity wrote: Read this (or a couple of pages at least) and get back to me with your opinion on Oats. Alrighty. Have to go in 10 minutes though so I'll get back to you in a few hours. | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 06 2013 04:49 prplhz wrote: can anybody tell me why axlegreaser is town Well I gave him townie points for this post. + Show Spoiler + On April 05 2013 13:49 AxleGreaser wrote: @Palmar I am curious. I don't yet have any meta on you apart from memory... Can you direct me to any game in which you ##FOS a player? Id like to see under what conditions you normally do that? ##Fos Palmar I'll be watching you (but doing other things) I'd suggest you be careful or I might put vote on you... except that you'd just ignore that, hence it would be pointless but its the questions I ask that are the problem. @WOS. While the anchor you gave me here, is anice anchor and all that jazz, having had quick look at his Red team filter Then yes your description of a headless chook seems about right. Was there any reason you thought we should lynch a headless chook? and yes, just before you run off here you can have your "headless chook" read back for now I would need to see something directly scummy, rather than just noisily anti town.. He saw something that he thought was out of place with Palmar and asked him about it, and he bothered to look up one of rayn's old filters, and put some thought into the WoS/rayn storyline. He was the first person to put some real effort into figuring out the game, when he certainly was under no pressure to do so, as everyone else was trolling or just doing nothing. also, oats are you still around by any chacne? | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 06 2013 05:41 raynpelikoneet wrote: Huh, why do you think Axle actually looked up my Red mafia filter and read it? That's a pretty fucking wishy-washy statement he gave about me and my play in RED. I doubt he thoroughly read it, but he clearly at least opened it, and looked at it enough to characterize your previous play. It's not wishy/washy. He said you played like a headless chook. Nothing wishy/washy about that. My point is that it he put some effort into doing something related to figuring out alignments, although he wasn't under any obligation to do so. Do you think Axle is lying about looking at your filter and is therefore scum? Seems like a very stupid lie to tell. | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 06 2013 02:16 marvellosity wrote: Read this (or a couple of pages at least) and get back to me with your opinion on Oats. Alright marv let's talk about Oats. I went through the first few pages of his town filter from Red Team, and here is what I found significant:
Also, I missed this before, but either he somehow misunderstood what I was saying, or this part of his case against me is quite a reach. Want to ask him about it, but he's apparently gone for 16+ hours. + Show Spoiler + On April 06 2013 01:50 Oatsmaster wrote: The questions are not even meant to elicit a proper response, they are questions to try and get the subject, in this case, marv angry and DISRUPT the thread like BH. When this is his only contribution, Its looking really bad. Overall, reading his previous filter hasn't changed my read on him. I'm still leaning scum. I assume you disagree based on your telling me to read his previous filter. Can you explain why? | ||
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sciberbia
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Meh. I don't get the feeling Oats would be timid even if he were scum. And he didn't exactly confront you straight-on. More like you were both circling around one of Palmar's posts. Ace and I seem to be in agreement that his posting this game is significantly moreso posting for the sake of posting than it was in Red Team. Do you disagree with this? Also, what do you think of prplhz drawing extra attention to drawing attention to rayn early D1? + Show Spoiler + On April 05 2013 11:45 prplhz wrote: no mention of the guy you are currently voting for? On April 05 2013 12:15 prplhz wrote: i don't like how rayn just ignored my question I would expect veteran players like prplhz, as town, to ignore distracting players like rayn on early D1, instead of drawing attention to them. | ||
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sciberbia
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+ Show Spoiler + On April 05 2013 10:42 WaveofShadow wrote: Hey Axle, if you're still around, what do you make of rayn flitting about the thread thus far? I liken him unto a chicken without a head, spraying blood and entrails wherever his dying nervous system directs him. Personally I am loathe to pay him any more mind than this but it would be nice to get a fresh opinion on the matter before partaking of other more worldly pursuits. You do seem to be inviting Axle to give his opinion on rayn's alignment, so I think rayn's summary of your post was fair. On the other hand, Axle did seem to have misinterpreted your intentions, but I don't see why bad reading comprehension is suspicious in and of itself. I highly doubt he intentionally lied about what you said. Also, do you actually want to lynch Ace today? Just because you think he is good at scum? | ||
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sciberbia
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I don't know if you missed my last post, but.. First of all, as a point of fact, rayn didn't misinterpret your post in the same way Axle did. You posted this, where you ask Axle if he thinks rayn is worth paying attention to. + Show Spoiler + On April 05 2013 10:42 WaveofShadow wrote: Hey Axle, if you're still around, what do you make of rayn flitting about the thread thus far? I liken him unto a chicken without a head, spraying blood and entrails wherever his dying nervous system directs him. Personally I am loathe to pay him any more mind than this but it would be nice to get a fresh opinion on the matter before partaking of other more worldly pursuits. And rayn summarised your post as 'asking Axle if we should kill rayn', which I think is a fair (although exaggerated) summary. Moving on, On April 06 2013 08:23 WaveofShadow wrote: Are you worried or something? Iamp's wasn't a random joke vote either. If you're going to start saying something then come out and say it; what about me being the only person on your 'wagon' concerns you, and what about Oats' posting concerns you specifically? Your stance on Ace is confusing. Maybe you could communicate it better. First, marv made a troll vote on Ace. You jumped on the bandwaggon and voted Ace. How serious was this vote? Clearly it's not THAT serious because you are talking a lot about prplhz and rayn and not pushing an ace lynch. On the other hand, it is clearly at least somewhat serious because you said you stand by it. But if it's somewhat serious, why did you say "I'm with marv on this one" when it was clear marv was just trolling? Do you really think a policy lynch of Ace is in town's best interests? I'm confused. Help me out here. | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 06 2013 09:48 iamperfection wrote: da faq is this shit where is everybody who wants to kill prplz with me? This is not a trick question. Hi iamp. I think we can all agree that prplhz has shown no indication that he is town, or cares about town. I did not like his cacophony of one-liners that didn't go anywhere. I also didn't like how he drew more attention onto rayn. If I had to pick a lynch right now, prplhz is in my top two, but I don't see why we should rush him to the gallows. We don't get bonus points for winning the game in under 24 hours, so I'll be holding onto my vote. I suggest you look into other people until prplhz returns to the thread. Do you have a stance on Oats? + Show Spoiler + bolded prplhz in attempt to help iamp learn correct spelling | ||
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sciberbia
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In your Red Team filter, and even moreso in this game, you quickly pounced on a few different people in quick succession. I suppose this is behavior that one could classify as typical of a 'headless chook', although I personally would restrain from using that term. | ||
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sciberbia
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I knew that didn't sound right :[ | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 06 2013 10:42 raynpelikoneet wrote: So sci: Do you think Axle actually read my filter from RED or not? Yes I think he read it. I would be shocked if Axle lied about looking at your filter. If he is town, he has no motivation to lie, and plenty of incentive to actually look at it. And if he is scum, it would be an abysmally stupid idea to claim to have done research and present findings without actually doing the research. What if the findings he presented were 100% clearly wrong? It's just such an unnecessary risk. Since he went through the trouble of getting the link, it only makes sense that he would at least scroll through it, even if he is scum. Are you going somewhere with this? | ||
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sciberbia
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Just off the top of my head, you jumped on myself, iamp, and WoS at the start of this game. And you jumped on prplhz and OO early in Red team, with some aggressive questions to... Cora, marv, and Keirathi. If you really think that Axle would lie about looking at your filter, I'm just going to have to strongly disagree and leave it at that. I think that as scum he would at least take 30 seconds and glance through it before linking to it in the thread. Just because he didn't point out anything specific doesn't mean he didn't look at it. | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 06 2013 12:32 Ace wrote: is Rayne always this impulsive? He seems less so in his red team filter; he explained his reads more at any rate. I don't really know what to make of his many impulsive votes, but I suspect he just likes attention. Ace, what do you think about WoS in light of his most recent posts? Is he scum? Why or why not? | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 06 2013 12:52 Ace wrote: I think if any townie really believed I was Scum he'd put up much more of a fight than that. Nowhere in WoS's filter does he state any kind of scumread on you. He claims to have originally voted you as a half-serious policy lynch with the half-serious logic that you are very good at scum but can be a liability as town. He also says he thinks its a shame that people are content to let you do nothing because that is what you supposedly do on d1 as either alignment. But he doesn't state a scumread. Does that affect your read? | ||
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sciberbia
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Axle, I don't have any questions for you. I don't think anything you posted was scummy. Palmar/marv you are wrong about my alignment. I'm busy today but in 7 or 8 hours from now I can sit down and have a chat. I also don't know why you think I'm scum with WoS. I'm thinking town on WoS if you couldn't tell from my posts earlier. For lack of time, I'll just post my notes: 2) WaveofShadow - claims town in first post when he knows it may draw attention - draws attention by making multi-line posts and not spamming - in and out of thread - huge-ass post for no reason - conspiracy theory (?) with Axle and Rayn - "you got me" post about his vote on Ace - philosophical problem with Ace/prplhz CONCLUSION: thinking town | ||
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sciberbia
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In the last game I played with WoS, there was some deal made about people claiming town, and zarepath was all like claims town --> scummy. So I don't think WoS would be especially keen to claim town, unless he was genuinely extremely relieved to roll town. I don't think he would do that as scum. Everyone else was trolling and WoS started writing these huge-ass posts. I think this also leaves him open to attack and I don't see why he would do it as scum. Conspiracy theories are very townie imo. Like, it was a pretty unlikely theory. Rayn and Axle both scum and both misinterpreted WoS's posts together in the scum QT? I'm not even sure that was it. But it shows the paranoid mind of a townie. I thought his explanation of his Ace vote was reasonable. And I think that being frustrated with people not doing anything is very typical of a townie. And he seemed genuinely frustrated. Do you disagree with these points marv? | ||
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sciberbia
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I still don't think WoS is scum. His death posts felt fine and a few recent lines in his filter just feel genuine to me: + Show Spoiler + On April 06 2013 10:01 WaveofShadow wrote: I could vote prplhz, but how can I be sure that isn't just his 'typical play' as Oats previously told me? On April 06 2013 10:05 WaveofShadow wrote: I still have a lot of trouble with the idea that there are people we can just 'let do their thing' and if anyone actually suspects them before that point it's scummy. I can't see myself ever getting used to that idea. On April 07 2013 03:27 WaveofShadow wrote: Personally all the business with Oats/DP/iamp/whoever just seems to me like townies going at townies. DP seems very town to me sepcifically. In this game I think scum are much more likely to be in the lurky category. Prplhz and Ace/Axle? Tunkeg's case didnt' do much for me. Some of his points weren't scumtells (paragraph 1) and others were misrepresenting what happened in the thread (paragraphs 2,3,4). My only gripe with WoS is his generally low activity before he had like 6 votes but overall I'm still thinking town and I wouldn't be happy lynching him today. prplh'z vote on WoS reminded me of his unabashed pile-on onto Forumite D1 in Dwarf Mini. He still has hardly done anything and I'd be alright with lynching him today. But seeing as we have no time limit, I'd still like to hear more from him before hanging him. @marv I was confused by your refusal to lynch prplhz today, because the only two games I've read with you and prplhz on D1 (Dwarf Mini and that game you were mayor), prplhz played similarly to this game, you voted him, and he was scum. What's different about this game that makes him a bad lynch? Palmar, not getting lynched today is one of my top priorities, so I'd be interested in having some discussion with you and hopefully help you see the light. What do you want me to address? Also I think I owe Axle an answer to something. Going back through his filter now. | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 06 2013 18:54 AxleGreaser wrote: You have I believe brought this up once or twice, yet not pushed me directly on it all.... Do you have question for me? I have one for you. I think you will find that if you read my post carefully, you will find I used the word .... [b]'thought'[b]. He had indeed not [b]said[b] he wanted to (potentially?) lynch him, he had however made inflammatory remarks likely to elicit an emotive response, by asking me to post on the subject he had in some sense handed me a metaphorical anchor. I (effectively)thanked him and gave it back. I was as careful as I could be to not be further inflammatory myself. If he did not indeed 'think' such posting style could be indicative of scuminess or used as shield to hide/obscure scummy play whenever you do roll scum, and hence part of a potential reason to lynch someone... Why is it relevant to the thread and what scum hunting intention/thought did he have in making the post? All I am left with its inflammatory nature. @Sciberbia: Questions. have you asked your self these Questions? Do you know something I don't? BTW. I did try not to make the question too hard... I provided one version of the answer at the bottom of the post. All someone had to do to answer the question was read what I said, and actually try and understand what I was saying, and either agree with what I said "I would need to see something directly scummy, rather than just noisily anti town.." or provide your own view. @Axle I'm not sure that I fully understand what your asking. I think what you're asking is 'hey scib what do you think about the fact that WoS asked me about rayn?' so that's the question I'm going to answer. I would not have made this post myself, because as you said, it doesn't do a lot to further scumhunting. I did think to myself a bit about this post because it did concern me a bit that he was 'being inflammatory' about rayn but not trying to draw his own conclusions about rayn's alignment. I concluded that this post is not unreasonable for a townie WoS to make because
So I can see this post being made by a town WoS and I therefore didn't see it as a cause for concern. | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 07 2013 09:11 marvellosity wrote: ##Unvote I'll sort this out tomorrow Can you answer my question about prplhz before you go? Do you see anything that makes you think he is town? If not, what makes this game different from Dwarf Mini and your mayor game? | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 07 2013 09:12 Palmar wrote: @marv, you played with sciberbia as town in dwarf fortress. What did you think about him day 1 there and why? Palmar, do you want to discuss anything in particular in my filter this game? Like, I'd be happy to explain exactly why I posted anything I've posted, and I'd even tell you how my play would likely differ if I were scum. It just seems like such a shame that you have a scumread on me and I'd really like to do something about it. On April 07 2013 09:15 marvellosity wrote: I thought he looked very town and as I recall he pushed what was a very sensible lynch (Forumite) even though I believed it was an incorrect one at the time. In some ways sciberbia seems less distant than whatever game it was that you were town and he was mafia in, and yet his push on Oats makes no sense to me, in addition to the things you mentioned already. I really don't understand why you think I'm scum for thinking Oats is reasonably likely to be scum. First of all, Ace and DP have stated scumreads on Oats. Are they scummy for it too? And secondly, what mafia motivation do you think I have for stating a scumread on Oats? Do you think I was just trying to push a mislynch with (as you say) bad reasoning? When I play mafia, I don't go out of my way to push bad mislynches. I just try to push the same sensible lynches that I push as town. If anything, I try to make my cases more 'agreeable sounding' when I'm mafia. | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 07 2013 09:16 AxleGreaser wrote: The distinctions I was making in this post were fine distinctions. I was indeed 'reaching' for the idea that perhaps you were not considering why/ (what intention)/ (what thought) was behind and motivated WoS This post My post was about WoS's towny intentions. (dropping emotive stuff and leaving, i found hard to put a towny intention on) That you have still not apparently gone back and considered, why WoS made that post that I was initially concerned about, is to me concerning. In the post above, you give what I think I can loosely describe as bunch of heuristics, do this and your scum, don't do this and your not. What I don't see there is you considering the purpose of the actions. I am sorry, I just found where you did...? If I misinterpreted his intentions.... (as looking for someone to Lynch... or commenting on characteristics of people that could make them someone to Lynch, or ..) How did you interpret the intention of this Post? In particular what did the graphic visual nature, do but inspire further emotive knee jerk posts? BTW writing this post Started before Scribs here and while stuff seems to be happening around the WoS Lynch for me that does not effect whether or not Scrib was considering why WoS did things. @Axle With every post I analyze I look at look at possible townie and mafia intentions behind it. I thought about WoS's post right after I read it. I'm sorry that I did not explain earlier but I was busy today. To explain why I said you misinterpreted his post: I think WoS gave no alignment read of rayn at all in the post you quoted. But you asked him On April 05 2013 13:49 AxleGreaser wrote: Was there any reason you thought we should lynch a headless chook? This implies that you thought WoS was personally showing interest in lynching rayn where I maintain that he wasn't. Hence why I said you misinterpreted his post. | ||
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On April 07 2013 09:26 marvellosity wrote: I hold you to higher expectations than I do either of those players. I think you're being pretty unreasonable marv. First of all, Oats is an unflipped player, and I still think he has a decent chance of being scum, but for the purposes of this post I will assume he is town, because I'm trying to see things from your point of view. I make incorrect reads all the time. See my previous filter in The Game where I pushed townie lynches on D1 and D2. Also, you played in I Can't Believe where my top 3 reads on D3 were all town even though the rest of town all had their vote on the scum. And in hindsight those were some pretty bad reads. So the simple fact that I may have made an incorrect read clearly doesn't mean I'm scum. Do you think my evidence towards Oats being scum was so atrocious that I wouldn't post it as town? I stand by the fact that I pointed out a few things in his filter that are a cause for concern. Furthermore, do you really think that as scum I would push someone that I think looks townie? Because that is what you are implying. Please answer both questions. | ||
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On April 07 2013 09:46 marvellosity wrote: Oats is (and I said it to him pre-game) a pretty popular target for mafia ire, because outwardly he does "scummy" things, like contradictions and other similar crap. If a mafia is looking to push a mislynch on to someone, Oats is the kinda guy to push it on, because he's easy to make a case on. I would have hoped, as town, that you would be able to take a broader view of Oats' play; some loud dude, pointing fingers and generally being all over the place on Day 1 - this is literally THE classic mislynch in Newbie games. So meh. Well there are two issues at hand here. One is my alignment and the other is Oats's alignment. Based on the votecount and the fact that I'm 100% sure of my own alignment, I'm just going to stick to that issue for now, and look at Oats again when I catch a break. You should note that I didn't attack Oats for being loud, contradicting himself, or pointing fingers. I stated suspicion on him for making a very safe entrance to the thread, promoting a negative town atmosphere (which I think he has continued to do), and making several posts that were a bit "out there". I think these are all legitimate scumtells and cause for concern. I'm not sure why you disagree. I would also like to reiterate that I would not push a case that I think is bad even if I were scum, especially with a player list like this where there are several players that I have played for and have respect for. As a side note, I strongly disagree with your characterization of my initial setup musings as fawning at Palmar. I did give my own opinion. It seems to me that optimal town play is to extend days for a long time. As I said. | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 07 2013 13:52 AxleGreaser wrote: I think this topic is about done. I believe I understand why you said pretty much all of what you did. So do you want me to address your questions in the first paragraph of that post or are we cool? Also, I'll be around reading filters for another hour or two if you/iamp want to discuss anything. I need to figure out where I stand on a few people. Top of the list are oats/marv/axle. | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 07 2013 14:07 iamperfection wrote: want to kill prplhz? I've clarified my stance on him already iamp. I'm leaning scum on him. I agree with your recent sentiment that anyone who reads his filter should be leaning scum on him. He hasn't showed a lot of interest in the game and that is generally indicative of scum. I don't know why Palmar/Ace think that prplhz being useless is strictly null because I recall from Dwarf Mini that HiroPro & marv & I looked at prplhz's meta and concluded that he is usually more useful on D1 as town compared to his usual uselessness as scum. That said, I don't want to kill him right this instant. Since we can take as long as we want on this lynch, I'd rather get a stronger scumread before killing someone. Are you really even like 60% sure he is scum? Townies can be uninterested in games too. If you had the power to decide the lynch right now would you really kill prplhz? You're that confident? | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
On April 07 2013 14:24 DarthPunk wrote: OK. There was a wagon with three votes on marvellosity and noone seems to have commented at all on it. I find that strange. Well I agree with what you said about his jump on my wagon being concerning. I know that marv thinks very highly of my town play, and therefore I'm concerned that he was willing to let me die on what in my opinion was some pretty flimsy evidence. Here are some quotes of his from a scum QT from a long time ago + Show Spoiler + that's why I'm coaching in scumQT hehe. sciberbia just replaced Monk. you need to nightkill him. -------------------------------------------------------------- sciberbia is arguably the strongest newbie to come through TL Mafia in recent times. And within this game he said + Show Spoiler + On April 07 2013 09:26 marvellosity wrote: I hold you to higher expectations than I do either of those players. referring to DP and Ace, who are certainly no slouches. Knowing that he thinks a lot of my town play, I see a ton of mafia motivation to support Palmar's sciberbia wagon and try to get me out of the game, and on Palmar's wagon no less (yes I think Palmar is town). But I don't see a lot of town motivation for his complacency in just letting me die. Posts like these don't sit right with me. + Show Spoiler + On April 06 2013 20:49 marvellosity wrote: Alright Palmar. We can do it your way. For now. ##Vote: sciberbia On April 07 2013 02:04 marvellosity wrote: They're both looking pretty tough to me right now >.< I kinda just want someone to die and flip really. On April 07 2013 08:45 marvellosity wrote: Unlike Oats, who is "scum at best, town is worst"? Super solid reason you have there, Ace. I'm with Palmar on this one. And your irrational opposition to the lynch while championing an equally irrational lynch makes me feel better about it too. You're telling us/town it makes no sense to unvote WoS, but you've never actually had your vote on him yourself. If you're so sure, why weren't you hammering his wagon? #paranoia #yolo #willlookatthegamewhilenotundertheinfluencetomorrow ##Vote: sciberbia If we were about to lynch DP/Palmar/marv/anyone that I think would be quite an asset as town, I'd want to feel damn good about them being scum before letting them die. Especially because there is no rush to lynch today. But I don't think marv had any especially good reasons to think I am scum. marv has seen me play a lot, and I don't think my play this game has been that different from other games where I've been town. Marv should know that I like posting fluffy setup stuff as town, and overall I think he should be able to read me as town, or at the very least not have a scumread. But I suppose it's possible we both just overestimate each other and that he is impatient and doesn't think like me. Even before the wagon on me, I was leaning scum on marv based on some things earlier in the game. I think there's a decent chance he's scum. The towniest thing in his filter to me is his WoS/scib conspiracy theory. Like I said before I think theories like that show paranoia and are generally indicative of town. I dunno. It's getting late. Sorry for rambling a bit. Am I talking sense DP? | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 07 2013 15:05 Oatsmaster wrote: sleeping is good ##Unvote Hey guys, about Sciberia and DP. They clearly DONT CARE what I have to say in response to them. I responded to DP's case. IGNORED. I posted more stuff about Sciberia. IGNORED. Again about Sciberia lets hammer this scum. Wtf what is this post that PUSHES NOTHING. Its REACTIVE not proactive. Scum are reactive. Town are proactive. He talks about WoS in LENGTH and defends him for no bloody reason when it was clear that he was not very close to being lynched. ##Vote Sci Wagon on marv is stupid. Why is he scum? ALL THE PEOPLE THAT VOTED FOR HIM? Im assuming Palmar's is a pressure vote but the rest, Im not so sure. @Oats I didn't see anything that I thought was worth responding to. You added to your case on me with some points which I thought were clearly not very good. + Show Spoiler + On April 06 2013 23:56 Oatsmaster wrote: Time to hammer Scib INTO THE GROUND. or rope in this case. This 'analysis' is mostly summary and I dont see ANYTHING of the sciberia that was nk'ed early in THE GAME. Especially this, it feels like the 'criteria' that iGrok had in MTG2 where you fit posts into slots. (iGrok was scum btw) He also didnt bother to check his meta read against any other games that I played. He has had a low impact in the thread so far and again, doesnt feel like the town sciberia im used to seeing. And I do remember expanding on my thoughts on WoS because you and marv had an issue with them. I disagree that WoS was not close to being lynched. Marv and Palmar agreed that he was scummy. IMO that put him in DANGER territory. Also, there was some talk about a scib/WoS connection, so I thought it would be good to make it clear where I stood on WoS and why my previous posts were so 'nice' about him. I had not zero not one but two townie motivations for sharing that townread. Yes I was catching up with the thread. Hence I was reacting to the things in the thread that I was reading. I don't know why this is a problem. I'm "reacting" to your most recent post right now. It doesn't make me scum. Oats, all bravado aside, on a scale from 0% to 100% how confident are you that I am scum? | ||
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On April 07 2013 15:21 Oatsmaster wrote: Is this like the 'You should BE ABLE TO SEE THAT I AM TOWN', scumtell thing? Cause thats is absolute bullshit and inaccurate. Do you have ANY REASONS why marv is scum? or are you just bullshitting? The one above ISNT. Yes I just explained one significant reason I have for thinking marv is scum. He has a lot of scum motivation for trying to get me lynched on Palmar's wagon. I would expect a town marv to have more reservations about lynching me for fear of losing a town scib. He had almost no reasons for voting me, and the one original reason he provided was very bad imo. I just explained this. | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 07 2013 15:21 Oatsmaster wrote: Is this like the 'You should BE ABLE TO SEE THAT I AM TOWN', scumtell thing? Cause thats is absolute bullshit and inaccurate. Do you have ANY REASONS why marv is scum? or are you just bullshitting? The one above ISNT. Also the "YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE THAT OATS IS TOWN" scumtell is pretty much the exact scumtell marv was using on me. Do you think that was bullshit as well? | ||
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On April 07 2013 15:54 Oatsmaster wrote: Marv and Palmar unvoted WoS BEFORE you made that post IIRC Explaining townreads in full detail IMO isnt a townie move. How confident are you that WoS is town? close to 100%. You arent scumhunting. You dont want to find out who is scum. You avoided pissing anyone off(joke k DP) @Oats Marv's vote was still on WoS. And regardless of where votes were, both marv and Palmar made it clear that WoS was in their top two, so I felt like his life was certainly in danger. As I already said, I think that my explaining of why I think WoS is town was in town's best interests. Hmm, well with a baseline of about 73% just based on math, I would say I'm about 83% confident that WoS is town. + Show Spoiler + On April 07 2013 15:59 Oatsmaster wrote: Yes yes I think that is bullshit as well. However Marv is sleeping and you arent. Right ok so the main reason you think that marv is scum is because he thinks you are scum because you shouldve read me as town. RIGHT. And Palmar did that to marv as well. So is Palmar scum too? Or is it just marv? 1 reason alone does not make someone scum. DP response to my response on your case please. You are IGNORING whatever I said. good job I say, GOOD JOB. You are misrepresenting what I said about marv. As I already explained, it was the way marv went about voting me and 'pushing' me that I found concerning, not the mere fact that marv stated a scumread on me. As I already said, I don't think Palmar is scum. As I already said, there are other things in marv's filter that I don't like. And for what it's worth, there is no rule that you need at least 2 reasons to think someone is scum. Oats you are either scum or you are town and thoroughly convinced that I am scum. Either way, continuation of this discussion seems a waste of my time so I'm going to stop responding to your accusations. Feel free to address them to the rest of the thread. | ||
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prplhz should be on everyone's radar for showing no interest in town on D1 which is not only scummy in and of itself, but specifically fits with his scum meta. marv I think has a decent chance of being scum and I look forward to discussing him tomorrow. Oats I'm pretty much still in the same spot as yesterday. I didn't think DP's case on him was that convincing because I think DP misread all of Oats's posts about iamp, and I don't think Oats's followup of his scum read on me has been lacking. But, I think he has continued to be disruptive and I didn't like how he jumped on the WoS wagon so easily, abandoning his supposedly strong scumread of me. I want to have a look at his scum games to see if he is able to keep up this level as abrasiveness as scum. The only other person that piqued my scumdar today was Axle because he jumped both on and off of my wagon with imo weak reasoning. And he is supposed to be more active/helpful as town. I guess he is now on my suspects list. | ||
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I'm neither distant not uninterested. I spent like 8 hours on this game yesterday and I'll be here until the lynch. Also, I was not actually around when WoS had 6 votes I think. I think I came back shortly after marv unvoted. Don't know why it matters though. I clearly would not have hammered him as either alignment after stating I think he is town. And why is one of me / WoS scum? I don't see any reason to think that is necessarily true. Or marv / Ace for that matter. Working on a post to marv. Should be done soon. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On April 07 2013 20:31 marvellosity wrote: Just to repeat, you spent half a very long analysis post defending someone who was under attack from one person, and attacked someone else who I thought and still think is clearly a bad lynch. In doing so, you completely ignored WoS who had been under some suspicion, and who may yet still be mafia. I didn't / do not understand why you devoted so much of that post to talking about someone quite townie in iamp rather than talking about someone much more controversial in WoS, who you left until much later. This not-talking-about WoS, in conjunction with the long (in my opinion kinda weird) post on iamp and Oats, gave me more the feeling of that mini you rolled mafia, where the primary determinant of seeing you as mafia is that although your posts looked ok, you seemed pretty disconnected with the thread, whereas as town you're much more in the thick of things. At any rate, even though it took ~48 hours, you now ARE more in the thick of things (even if it is with suspicion of me) and so I'm backing down from thinking you're a good lynch right now. It seems we had different reads on the thread temperature at the time. It seemed to me that you had some sort of scumread on iamp, Palmar's vote was on him, and DP also had a substantial scumread. I didn't have the feeling that WoS was a more pressing issue. Anyway, I can see the reasoning that you might have used to think I am scum. Yesterday, my impression was "meh a couple of things felt off to me about scib so sure let's kill him why not". But, I now see that you thought you had a reason to be concerned that I was talking about Iamp and not WoS (who I then later defended), and I think more townie of you for your WoS + scib paranoia. Also, I can see you trying and failing to correctly use a couple of heuristics: - that people that attack Oats are scum - and that scib is out of touch with the thread as scum It also makes me feel better that you now have a townread on Palmar and have reservations about lynching me. + Show Spoiler + On April 07 2013 20:31 marvellosity wrote: In any case, if a scum-marv wanted to get you lynched, dear, I'd make sure I did so in a pretty airtight fashion. Literally every single vote I ever cast as mafia is backed up by "rock solid" reasoning, to prevent stuff like *this* happening to me. What's happening right here happens to me when I'm town; e.g. Personality I was attacked for throwing votes around Day 1, e.g. "##vote: Stutters. let's see how this goes" Or in Fruity mafia a mafia Toad spent his entire time alive (until i had him killed) trying to discredit me for a vote I put on him which had very little reasoning other than "yeah i agree with sand". Anyone with any passing familiarity with my scumplay should know I never look bad for my votes. It's just basic stuff. I'm not thinking about this argument too much. + Show Spoiler + On April 07 2013 20:31 marvellosity wrote: I was feeling pretty good about this game yesterday afternoon because Palmar had the same two reads I had with basically the same reasoning. Except I fleshed out why I found WoS scummier and Palmar ended up on my wagon, and Palmar fleshed out why he found sciberbia scummier and I ended up on his wagon, but I'm mafia? If nothing else this is monumentally inconsistent and confusing. I'm confused by your saying that I am "monumentally inconsistent and confusing" but not saying I'm scum for it. Do you think I'm being monumentally inconsistent and confusing but that I'm town? Anyway, it's not that I think more townie of Palmar for pushing me, but I was already thinking town on Palmar due to the rest of his filter, and I was already slightly worried about you due to the rest of your filter. Also, you've seen me play quite a bit and I know you think I'm an asset to town. As far as Palmar is concerned, I'm just some guy who beat him as scum by surviving to the end of the game. So when I see you both pushing my lynch and I don't see a lot of great reasoning for it, it reflects worse on you than it does on Palmar. On April 07 2013 20:31 marvellosity wrote: Going back to the Oats thing, no I don't find DP suspicious for attacking Oats because like I mentioned before I hold you in a higher regard than him, and I hold you in a significantly higher regard than a town-Ace, who couldn't make a good read if he was in a fucking library. Since I started playing here a year ago, I've only ever seen town-Ace champion town lynches or get mislynched himself. He's awful as town. OK. But Palmar clearly thinks both yourself and Oats might be scum, and you have a townread on Palmar. I still think the "you should be able to see Oats is town" is a bad scumtell on me or anyone else for that matter. Mafia isn't an easy game. For what it's worth, I'm also feeling better about Oats recently. He seems to be trying to move the thread forward now, and he is consistent in his defense of you and eagerness to sheep you. Can you point me to one of his scum games? I couldn't find any. On April 07 2013 20:31 marvellosity wrote: For some reason people don't seem to care that Ace is highly inconsistent with himself starting from about last night. He tells us that there is no good reason for unvoting WaveofShadow, and then concedes that his posts felt genuine - so... this is a good reason to unvote WaveofShadow. He also says "this" - I don't know what "this" is - was the reason that Ace "unvoted" him. Ace never had his vote on him. A small mistake perhaps, but in The Game Ace almost led a blatantly town VE to the gallows for "lying". I said yesterday at some point that I couldn't really read Ace as mafia because he didn't seem to be pushing any agenda; I can't say that now. I noticed that Ace had a few inconsistenices. For example, he said he unvoted WoS but his vote was not on WoS. Also, to beat the dead horse, it didn't make sense to think WoS is scum for "lying" about having claimed, because there is no scum motivation there. But I also don't see any scum motivation for Ace's inconsistencies. I haven't had any reason to think Ace is scum. But I see you just posted something on him so I'll look at that. @Axle I know you asked me something earlier, but I'm more interested in figuring out who we should lynch than answering it right now. Remind me later. | ||
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sciberbia
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On April 08 2013 05:11 marvellosity wrote: Scum in LIX, I was smurfing as FiveTouch if you want to check my filter and how early I caught him. My first post I believe. Well I feel much better about Oats as a result of reading that game. His filter this game reminds me much more of red team than LIX. In LIX he seems even more negative, and much more of a wuss. But I also feel slightly worse about you because you apparently can be super useful as town :p Anyway, is Ace the only lynch on the table? I've found most of his posts to be logical and agreeable, especially him questioning why there was a wagon on me. I could pretty easily see him being town. There are a couple things I agree are odd but I don't see the mafia motivation for them. He "lied" about unvoting WoS, but I see no mafia motivation for doing so. He has been trying to discredit Palmar, but I don't see why he would do that as mafia when nobody else seems to have a problem with Palmar, and you and I have already stated townreads on him. I wouldn't feel terrible about an ace lynch because I can count 8 people that I feel stronger about being town than Ace, but I'd definitely feel better about lynching either prplhz or Axle. marv why are you leaning town on axle? Do you not find any of these points concerning:
getting food and will be back shortly. Convince me on Ace scum and Axle town. | ||
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On April 08 2013 06:38 marvellosity wrote: scib where did you disappear to? Don't worry marv I know you love your scib heuristic and I haven't fucked off. Just been thinking about you, and Ace, and Axle, and reading. I'll be back in like 20-25 minutes. See my previous post and tell me what you see in Ace's play that is mafia motivated, and what you see in Axle that makes you think town. | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:08 Palmar wrote: We need three votes in the next few hours. Kill sonofabitch. Unless Ace makes me think more townie of him by the deadline, I'll be willing to vote him to avoid a no lynch. Can you elaborate on your town read of Axle? You haven't explained it at all. Here are some of my grievances on him for reference: On April 08 2013 06:41 sciberbia wrote: [*] hopped onto my wagon with some meh reasoning [*] he hopped off as a result of some small explanation I gave, and I got the feeling he only backed off because my wagon was no longer the 'in' thing [*] he has almost exclusively talked to and about only myself and WoS, and on top of that, it's all been about just 1 post from WoS early in the game. He hasn't been partaking in the discussion of other big issues in the thread. [*] he is supposedly more active as town | ||
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Can you stop arguing with DP and get back to me about Axle. I'm looking at his filter from Noir where he flipped town and he is discussing a bunch of different things with a bunch of different people, and seems to be trying to lead town in the right direction. I see none of that this game. I think he's more likely scum than Ace and it seems there is enough interest in lynching him that we can get a legitimate wagon going. ##Vote AxleGreaser Palmar, can you stop ignoring everything I say to you and tell me why you think AxleGreaser is town? | ||
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On April 08 2013 08:18 AxleGreaser wrote: How deeply did you think about why the difference if there is one might exist? I honestly did not think that deeply about it. Scum are more likely than town to restrict the number of people they have to talk to and the number of issues they have to comment on. Townies are more likely to want to give opinions on all the big issues in the thread and steer town in the right direction. So in general the fewer discussions/topics that a player partakes in, the more likely I think they are to be scum. I find it suspicious that you have talked almost exclusively about myself and WoS. On April 08 2013 08:18 AxleGreaser wrote: Did you ask if there could be a towny reason for the difference? There could be. In fact it's quite possible. As you said, it is possible that for whatever reason you thought the rest of the thread was developing fine on its own, and you just happen to be extremely interested in myself and WoS. On April 08 2013 08:18 AxleGreaser wrote: Did you consider the options above? Yes. I considered that you could be town. I considered that you could be scum. I have more and better reasons to think you are scum than reasons to think you are town, which is why my vote is on you. In regards to marv notes, they haven't changed my read on axle. I disagree with marv that Axle's reasons for voting me make perfect sense. Axle just said "sciberbia has given several reasons that he thinks WoS are town but they don't seem consistent with a townie mindset or level of suspicion". He does not demonstrate why this is so. He just states that it is. Also, I'm really not sure why he unvoted me at all. Axle maybe you could explain. You originally voted me because you thought I wasn't demonstrating a townie mindset or level of suspicion. But then you seemed to unvote me just because you realized why I said that you misinterpreted one of WoS's posts, which isn't extremely relevant to the reasons you were voting me. | ||
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marv i dont know what filter you're reading but i think ace has been pretty 'nice' all game long. which of his posts do you find abrasive? | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:10 DarthPunk wrote: SuCK IT BITCHES> I AM SO GOOD AT THIS GAME! <3<3<3 high-five DP! I love how I was just like meh I'd prefer Axle and an hour later he is lynched lol. Feels so good. | ||
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On April 04 2013 07:31 Dandel Ion wrote: Time Cycle: This game will follow the instant majority format, so dayphases are irregular. We will use two nightaction-deadlines at 00:00 GMT (+00:00) and 12:00 GMT (+00:00). If all actions are sent in for the first occuring deadline, we will start the dayphase. At the second occuring deadline, we will start the day regardless of any unsent actions. The game will be started at 00:00 GMT (+00:00) once it is full. Personally I hope it's not until the 8PM EDT deadline because I need a well-deserved break :D | ||
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sciberbia
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This is the post that sticks out most to me in your filter + Show Spoiler + On April 07 2013 17:22 Tunkeg wrote: @WoS - May I have your attention!! Now that I am the only one on your case. I will provide you with an out. Of course you can take the scummy way out and ignore me completely, as the pressure on you evaporated, but don't, I will nail you to the wall for it. The out is: Write a convincing case on prplhz with a structure that even I can comprehend, where you summarize what is scummy about him and provide quotes or references to posts. You are free to write it on someone else instead. My point is I want a scumread from you with an analysis behind, and not just some random lines. To the rest of you stay the fuck away from this, I want WoS to do it for obvious reasons! In particular, I want to understand what you meant by this: On April 07 2013 17:22 Tunkeg wrote: Now that I am the only one on your case. I will provide you with an out If WoS had done as you asked and written a case on prplhz, would that have dissuaded you from thinking WoS is scum? | ||
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On April 09 2013 06:38 Palmar wrote: no I'm happy so whatever. Last day went better than expected. Palmar in future could you read my damn posts? Might have helped you find scum instead of push me all day >_< | ||
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On April 09 2013 06:57 marvellosity wrote: Did someone say something?  | ||
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On April 09 2013 07:38 iamperfection wrote: when is day post? 00:00 GMT (+00:00) which is about 80 minutes from now | ||
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Required Reading (Especially For Palmar) Part I: Axle's filter Due to the prevailing TL meta, I highly doubt all 3 mafia would push my lynch, so between Oats, Palmar, Marv, and rayn, there is probably at most 1 scum. It worries me a little that WoS was at 6 votes and Axle was inconveniently not around to hammer. But judging from this post, Axle was legitimately going to bed right before the wagon on WoS picked up steam. Going with the same logic that not all 3 scum would push a town WoS, there probably is at most 1 scum between WoS, prplhz, Tunkeg, Palmar, marv, and rayn. Finally, in this post, Axle says he is unwilling to vote Ace. Here are some facts about the state of the thread at that time
So if Ace is town, I think it's odd that Axle didn't vote Ace. Getting Ace to 5 votes might have saved Axle's life, and it wouldn't even be that difficult. All Axle had to say was that he thought no-lynch was a bad idea (he did in fact say this) and that Ace was the only wagon on the table. Instead, he said he was happy with his vote parked uselessly on WoS. I guess it's possible that Axle just didn't realize he would actually get lynched, and for whatever reason thought he would look bad for putting his vote on a town Ace, but I feel like overall the fact that Axle did not vote Ace is evidence towards Ace being scum. Part II: Voting Analysis + Show Spoiler + On April 08 2013 09:05 Dandel Ion wrote: Votecount: WaveofShadow (2): Tunkeg, AxleGreaser marvellosity (1): Ace Ace (2): marvellosity, Oatsmaster AxleGreaser (7): DarthPunk, sciberbia, iamperfection, Palmar, raynpelikoneet, prplhz, WaveofShadow Not voting (0): HAMMERED. Silence, now. Nightpost incoming. Knowing Ace's alignment would be pretty helpful in analyzing the final votecount. If Ace is scum, then I still think DP/myself/iamp look quite good for starting the Axle wagon instead of just letting Ace die, but I'm not sure it says a lot about Palmar/rayn/prplhz/WoS that they were willing to jump on it. It would also makes Tunkeg the only person with their vote not on scum. And it would make marv look pretty good. If Ace is town, then I think it's pretty safe to say that DP/myslef/iamp/Palmar/rayn are all town as well. Obviously, prplhz and WoS would look damn good for their votes too (and they don't look particularly scummy anyways). This would mean that the remaining 2 scum are likely somewhere in marv/tunkeg/Oats and I dunno but that just doesn't seem too likely. I get the same feeling that iamp expressed On April 09 2013 02:51 iamperfection wrote: ace has to be scum doesn't he? i'm having a hard time getting a clear picture that doesn't include him as scum I think Axle + Ace + Tunkeg makes the most sense of any possible scumteam. + Show Spoiler + But it's never that easy so I'm probably wrong on at least 1 Part III: Reads sciberbia + Show Spoiler + just double-checked my role PM and it hasn't changed DarthPunk + Show Spoiler + I'm not even going to read his filter again (9 pages fuck that). He has seemed really townie to me all game. He wouldn't lynch me or WoS and he is probably the biggest reason Axle was lynched. Almost surely town iamperfection + Show Spoiler + Pretty sure he is town. I just went through his filter again. I was thinking town on him at the very beginning of the day, and he continued to be active and I don't see any cause for concern. He was anti-axle early in the day and he jumped on the axle wagon without hesitation. It was a bit odd that he never seemed to comment on the scib or WoS wagons but there's no scum motivation in that. I guess it's possible that he is scum but no reason to worry about it for now. Palmar + Show Spoiler + I haven't read any of his scum games, but his reasoning/mindset/methodology all seem very similar to the one game I played with him where he was town. I heard he sucks at scum and I'm not too worried that he is good enough at scum to fake it. Also, despite pushing me for most of the day, he helped make the Axle lynch happen. Oatsmaster + Show Spoiler + His play seems very similar to his town meta (red team) and very different than his scum meta (LIX). He is very consistent in his idolozation of marv and eagerness to sheep marv. Also, he is very active. If marv is town, I really can't imagine Oats would be brave enough to interact with marv the way he has, and I would also have a difficult time believing that marv is wrong about Oats since he's supposedly so good at reading Oats. If marv is scum, then I guess Oats could be scum but even then I doubt it. His play just seems very consistent with town Oats and inconsistent with scum Oats. And how likely is a marv + Oats scumteam at this point anyways? Just based on math, it's quite doubtful. raynpelikoneet + Show Spoiler + This is a read I feel somewhat good about but doesn't seem to be shared by other people. So I'm going into a bit of detail. First of all, think about who rayn is as a player. I don't know a lot about him, but I'm going to quote Palmar: On April 07 2013 08:41 Palmar wrote: I don't know how you approach a situation Ace, but I generally assume most players are somewhat naive and straightforward until I know better Nothing I have seen suggests that rayn is an especially sneaky/deceptive/clever player. This isn't an insult, but I just have no reason to believe he'd pull off any great stunts as scum. So first of all, he gets a serious amount of town credit for immediately (within 1 minute) sheeping Palmar onto the Axle wagon. That's a pretty ballsy play as scum. Also, I give him townie points for drawing so much damn attention to himself early in the game and being so active. I think everyone originally had a slight townread on him due to this. Next up, he is pretty much obsessed with vets, especially Palmar & marv. IMO this is very townie. I'm not sure I can put this into words but I will try. Rayn is a newer player. For newer players epecially, respected vets seem like these big important badasses that pretty much run the game. So as town, I can 100% feel why he'd have such a drive to figure out their alignments and ask them as many questions as possible. But as mafia, I'd expect him to be much more scared of Palmar and marv and stay away from them much more. Hopefully I explained this OK. Anyway, posts like these seem very townie to me: + Show Spoiler + On April 05 2013 09:36 raynpelikoneet wrote: Wanna kill WoS? Why are you not concerned into this matter rather than Palmar/Ace? On April 05 2013 09:57 raynpelikoneet wrote: can you guys do something else than be <3<3<3<3<3 with each other? On April 05 2013 10:03 raynpelikoneet wrote: yo Palmar, who should i vote on? On April 05 2013 12:20 raynpelikoneet wrote: marv can you pick up the pieces if you are town. kthxbye On April 05 2013 10:04 raynpelikoneet wrote: :D you too. I think you are town, not sure about marv though. Is he town? On April 07 2013 07:30 raynpelikoneet wrote: OH fuck Palmar.. Why did you say that`? On April 07 2013 08:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: Hmm marv, why vote for sci if your last post implies you think Ace is scum? On April 08 2013 09:41 raynpelikoneet wrote: Palmar, what about marv's shitty reasons why Axle was looking good? Also this post feels quite townie. I don't know if rayn would be sneaky enough to think of saying something like this as scum. It also fits in with the whole obsession with vets thing. On April 07 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: Do hats here usually balance the games so that if three "newbiest" players rolled scum they would switch one of them with more experienced player? What i mean is can we assume scumteam has at least one player who is amongst the most experienced ones? WaveofShadow+ Show Spoiler + I explained in the middle of the day why I was thinking town on him. Events since then have only made him look more townie. The fact that he was Axle's primary scumspect points to him being town. The fact that he hammered Axle points to him being town. He has been active and his posts in general have felt fine. Also, this post seems townie to me. I doubt whether WoS would be sneaky enough to fakeclaim VT and then remember to say this: On April 08 2013 10:38 WaveofShadow wrote: Oh yeah that's right, I could theoretically be LR or a Miller or something. Not that it matters. Maybe he should be higher on this list but tbh I've been ignoring some of the stuff surrounding him. + Show Spoiler + If I have to read one more post about his town-claim or his "lying" about it I think I'm gonna have to kill someone. Well crap I guess I should have started the list from the other end because now I only have 30 minutes to talk about the people that I think could be scum. Oh well. I don't think I have a whole ton to add on any of them anyway. marv + Show Spoiler + ugh fucking 15 page filter and don't have time to look at it. Don't feel like talking about marv anyway. I'm feeling that marv is more likely than not town. Not sure why exactly. Don't have any particularly great reasons but here goes: Based on discussion earlier, 15 page filter is probably a bit of a towntell. Also, scum marv probably wouldn't have ended up looking bad for Axle lynch. Also, iamp and Palmar think he is town. Maybe we should all just call him town for a couple days and look at him again if he hasn't been shot and we haven't already won. These people don't even look that scummy to me, but everyone else looks pretty townie. I'm running out of time to reread filters and don't really have anything to say about Ace or prplhz so I'm skipping the reasoning on them. prplhz tunkeg + Show Spoiler + I looked at tunkeg's filter for a bit today and have some mixed feelings. things I don't like In the early game, a few of his paragraphs were basically summaries and I didn't think it was necessary of him to post them. I don't like how he is pretty invisible and has mostly said reasonable and agreeable I things. I was surprised to see people giving him townie points for his case on WoS, because I really don't think it was that strong of a case. I already touched on this briefly. WoS finally defended himself against it and I agreed more with WoS's interpretation of events than Tunkeg's. I also don't like how he mostly only stays in his own little world of pushing WoS. Same scumtell I used on Axle. He doesn't address many other big issues in the thread. Finally, his post about giving WoS an out seemed to me like a thinly veiled attempt at giving himself an out. Looked to me like he wanted WoS to make a nice post so that he could have a reason to unvote WoS since it was no longer the 'cool wagon'. Nobody else pointed this out though so maybe I misinterpreted what he meant by 'giving WoS an out'. I'm also not sure how I feel about him going from 'WoS surely scum' to 'damn guess I was wrong' just because WoS hammered. I could easily see a townie Tunkeg deciding that the hammer doesn't mean that WoS is town. Like, prplhz wasn't nearly as convinced as Tunkeg was that WoS is scum, but he still doubts that WoS is town. I feel like Tunkeg might have really wanted 'out' of his WoS read and finally had his opporutnity. things I like I like this post + Show Spoiler + On April 08 2013 04:37 Tunkeg wrote: I will give this a final push now that we got a deadline. Lynch fucking WoS! He haven't even bothered answering my call out to him, and haven't even bothered to make a singular attempt at making one good case on prplhz! He is basicly in the thread doing nothing!!! Tell me what I can do to convince you guys that he is scum? Because I am certain he is! And frankly I am great at catching scum (no matter what you believe/I am just bad at pushing them). I very rarely have my vote on someone that isn't scum, the only exceptions are when I get agitated at someone and let my anger cloud my judgement. I am in no way angry at WoS, I have read and analysed him with an open mind, I have reevaluated my stance on him (comming to the same conclusion as before), and I am certain, 100 % that he is scum. I know some of you think I am a clown who can't play this fucking game, well, if I am wrong here you can go back to thinking I am just a shit player, but I am not, and you will credit me for this lynch. WoS is my wagon, and my lynch. Now get on it! You will thank me later! for exactly the same reason marv did. It would take serious guts to say this as scum, especially if WoS is in fact town. I also like this post because it seems like he is just asking for marv/Palmar to disagree and call him stupid/scum + Show Spoiler + On April 06 2013 19:53 Tunkeg wrote: I actually think sciberbias Oats/iamp post is his best in this game. It might be because I agree with the overall point of his post, iamp being greener and oats being redder. I also fail to see the overall scumplot in his play. Hmm now that I've typed this out it seems I have more and better reasons to think Tunkeg is scum. He's definitely someone I want to think more about and might be a good lynch tomorrow. ace Fuck out of time. | ||
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I think that is all there is to say about night 1. Oh and with the marv flip Oats looks even greener and I guess Ace looks a bit redder. | ||
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and no im not instalynching ace. | ||
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On April 09 2013 09:45 Palmar wrote: if ace somehow flips town we just lynch tunkeg and oats oats? goddamnit palmar read my posts why on earth would you think oats is scum after marv just flipped town? | ||
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I think the case on you is mostly process of elimination. If you are town, then all 7 people on the Axle wagon are very likely town, correct? So let's look at the people not on the Axle wagon. marv, Axle, tunkeg, and Oats, and you marv flipped town. Axle flipped scum. Oats seems very likely town IMO. So for you to be town, tunkeg would pretty much have to be scum. And who else? Who is scum if not you? I dunno. Everything is really pointing hard towards at least 1 of Ace + tunkeg being scum if not both. | ||
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I think it's silly to lynch anyone so fast when we have like 72 hours to decide a lynch. Why not just give Ace 48 hours to make the 2 best cases he can, and then lynch him if they aren't good enough? Can't hurt. And at least we'd have the cases if he flips town. Anyway yea goodbye for now people. | ||
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i feel kinda bad now for letting you die knowing that you meant that stuff you said about my wagon d1 Well I know what marv is saying in the obs qt On April 06 2013 19:31 marvellosity wrote: That's shit. Shitty shitty shitty poopypants. Don't worry guys now that he isn't around to state scumreads on probable or confirmed townies (iamp, me, WoS, Ace) or state townreads on probable or confirmed scum (axle, tunkeg) I'm sure we can make some progress. At least he took a bullet that was intended for someone scum thought was actually worth shooting + Show Spoiler + sorry that's a bit mean but I think he was asking for it Anyway in all seriousness, we need to get shit done tomorrow. I think tunkeg looks even worse for the ace flip and the fact that he hasn't posted in 23 hours. And unlike with Ace, I think he is likely to be scum not only due to having townreads on nearly everyone else, but there is significant stuff about his filter I find suspicious. You should all read my N1 deadline post if you haven't already. | ||
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also you guys need to calm down. For one thing you're being unproductive and for another you're all gonna get yourselves modkilled. We just had ONE mislynch and as far as mislynches go it wasn't even that bad. Chill out a little~ | ||
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So here was the votecount + Show Spoiler + On April 07 2013 02:02 Dandel Ion wrote: Votecount: sciberbia (3): Oatsmaster, raynpelikoneet, AxleGreaser WaveofShadow (3): Tunkeg, marvellosity, Palmar AxleGreaser (1): prplhz Oatsmaster (1): DarthPunk prplhz (1): iamperfection Not voting (3): sciberbia, Ace, WaveofShadow 7 votes needed to lynch. So WoS and I were the two wagons -- tied at three votes each. Judging by your later posts, you had at this point barely looked at my filter at all. And in the post where you vote WoS, you admit to only skimming tunkeg's case and generally not putting a lot of thought into the vote. On April 07 2013 02:27 prplhz wrote: ##Vote WaveofShadow busy might post more later. palmar and marv both on this one so it's probably good. skimmed tunkeg's case and it looked alright though i didn't really get all of it. Then later you posted this, which makes a lot of sense to me: On April 07 2013 10:24 prplhz wrote: i never really thought anybody would hammer today since in these majority lynch games you usually have 72 hours and there's hardly any reason not to use them all. So if you think it is in town's best interests to wait 72 hours before lynching anybody, why did you feel the need to drop your vote on an early bandwaggon especially when you only skimmed one of the leading cases at the time and handn't even glanced at the other one? I get the feeling you just couldn't have cared less about the lynch. 2. Who stated a town-read on Axle after you voted him? I don't recall anyone stating a townread on Axle in between these two posts + Show Spoiler + On April 05 2013 10:10 prplhz wrote: "don't mind me, i don't have an alignment" spoilered useless advice annoyance at iamperfection for being first to use an excuse to make reads on him harder ##Vote AxleGreaser On April 06 2013 04:49 prplhz wrote: can anybody tell me why axlegreaser is town so I don't know what you're talking about in your explanation here: + Show Spoiler + On April 08 2013 03:59 prplhz wrote: no one took notice of my initial post on axle and some people actually had town reads on axle so i asked what was up. later, i didn't have a lot of time so i skimmed the biggest case and decided it was alright. Honestly I doubt you'd lie as either alignment but I just want to be sure you weren't making shit up, so if you could point me to who stated a townread on Axle I'd appreciate it. 3. Walk me through your thought process in the end-of-day voting Can you just walk me through what you were thinking about who to vote in the last few hours of the day? Specifically, were you planning on voting Ace? Why did you decide to vote for Axle? When/where did you read his filter and what did you think about it? Did you think he was as likely to be scum as Ace? | ||
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It is true that I was initially leaning town on Axle and it is true that nobody showed any enthusiasm for your Axle vote. I'm just confused because this is events as I see them. prplhz: Axle is scum rest of thread: ........ *crickets* prplhz: Can somebody tell me why Axle is town? scib: sure prplhz here is a reason I think he is town Palmar: I think Axle is town Oats: hey prplhz why did you ask that question asking why Axle is town? prplhz: because some people actually had town reads on Axle and I wanted to know why And when I asked you to point out these town reads, you pointed to a post made by Palmar well after you asked the thread why Axle is town, so it doesn't seem consistent with your explanation to Oats. Am I missing something here? | ||
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I don't like 48 out of 60 consecutive hours being night. I bet scum are just being jackasses and didn't submit their NK. Although it did concern me slightly that Dandel felt the need to post this On April 09 2013 22:16 Dandel Ion wrote: If I don't get actions by the second deadline, I'll start the day without those, and the opportunity is gone forever! FOREVER I SAY! We better not have some derpy blue that forgot to use their night action N1 >_> Would be hilarious if it was an AWOL medic though ^_^ | ||
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so here some thoughts if i die. dp iamp rayn oats palmar likely all town. nobody is allowed to vote oats without reading marv and oats filters from LIX red team and this game. if you still think he is scum then dayum. would be most improved scumplay ive ever seen. prplhz tunkeg i could see as either alignment. realistcically spraking probably 1 scum brtween the two. more likely tunkeg imo. WoS man iono. want to say town but i just feel uneasy every time i read his filter. not sure night. see you tmrw maybe | ||
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Really good town play from everyone really. If anything, the rest of town carried Palmar & marv.
I'll stand by what I said about oats having the most improved scumplay I've ever seen (in my admittedly short TL mafia career). I think I had some valid scumtells on him early D1 (>_< marv), but his filter looked so unlike his LIX filter that he had me fooled. You guys made some good arguments on him though and I'm impressed that you figured him out. Tunkeg and Axle I think were relatively easy to catch on similar scumtells. Lack of activity, narrow-mindedness, and unconvincing reasoning for jumping on and off wagons. I'd like to credit all the town members for being active, productive, and reasonable, so that Axle and Tunkeg stood out from everyone else as scummier. And thanks Dandel, Sylencia, and Cheesecake for a well-hosted game. The frequency of votecounts was very pleasant. | ||
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On April 11 2013 17:18 DarthPunk wrote: It's kind of funny that you and marv were yelling at me/calling me stupid so much for calling you scum day one. You should consider yourself lucky DP; calling oats scum nearly got me lynched. Don't let mean old marv get you down  | ||
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I don't think you can argue that scum played as well as town in this game. Good scumplay is defined per the win condition as not dying. All 3 scum died. It's not like it's not within their power to not die. If they had all played the towniest games of their lives they would surely have won. Not saying it's easy but I'm saying the better team won. Mafia is a team game. As long as the setup is such that the better team will usually win that is fair in my book. In most team games you can make fair teams for every game but a key feature of mafia is that knowing who is on your team ruins the game. I think it takes away a lot of the spirit of the game if marv knows going in that either palmar or ace must be scum. edit: another reason I don't like it is that it puts newer players at a completely unfair disadvantage. All the vets know what teams would be considered balanced but newer players may not. It also unfairly advantages players who personally know the host and what he would be likely to do. imo it is much more fun to try to figure out whether someone is scum by analyzing their filter and interactions with other players than playing guess-what-the-host-thought-would-be-fun. | ||
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On April 11 2013 20:53 Oatsmaster wrote: The thing is, games arent like that. No one ever gets lynched for 'BALANCE REASONS THIS GUY IS SCUM'. There is always the main element of analyzing filters and shit like that. In the last game I played Prom said he figured that I was scum partly because I had to be for the game to be balanced. Also I barely followed Hero Mini but I looked at the player list at lylo and judging from the player list and the flips concluded marv was probably scum. In Palmar's video for that game he cited balance reasons as a probable motivation for bug's actions (to be fair I think he was wrong, but the fact he said that balance affected Palmar's thought process and therefore the game). Like it definitely factors into how some people view the game. i grant there are pros and cons to balancing but imo the cons outweigh the pros. | ||
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On April 11 2013 21:01 marvellosity wrote: Just a terrible argument all round really. Extreme example: you put 6 chess grandmasters against 6 amateurs. Chess is a game of complete information, so as long as each team has 3 whites and 3 blacks, the match is completely balanced. But of course it isn't, because experience and ability plays a large factor, and the grandmasters will win every time. Much the same in this particular setup; I bet if you ran a simulation of this game 100 times, this town team would at least 80% of the time. Town ran over mafia despite Palmar and I pushing 2 wrong lynches day 1 and despite the fact i was hard defending a mafia. Almost things couldn't have gone worse for town this game and yet it was still totally one-sided. I'm sure this game was "fun" for town with its totally RNG element, but realistically mafia didn't really have a chance. It's a simple fact that mafia teams need people with thread impact. you're chess example is correct in principle but it's obviously an exaggeration. Most rng's will be somwhat fair. This one just happened to be particularly bad for scum and that is unfortunate but imo it is still better than the alternative. If you ran a simulation for a penant game between the braves and the marlins the braves would probably win 80 percent of the time AND everyone knows that going in but for any player it is nearly as exciting as if the teams were balanced. Playing for the upset is fun. | ||
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On April 11 2013 21:08 marvellosity wrote: Mafia were never going to win this game, there was just too large a difference in abilities/thread impact. This might sound like I'm bashing on the skill of the mafia but it's not how it's meant to come across. None of the people on the mafia-team have a history of large thread impact in a game and that's just a fact. This game was always going to be a town win. If you're happy for a game to be one-sided for the sake of some silly RNG concept, then fine, but you'll get games where mafia basically can't win like this one. Agreed. I'm fine with games where one team is better. I play sports and if the other team is better than mine I take it as a challenge. It doesn't make the game less fun. As long as I have some reasonable chance to win. yes this is subjective. hence why we disagree. also this game could have gone much worse for town. None of our power roles were lynched or NK'd. WoS and i barely survived. Axle was lynched out of nowhere. Oats i dunno how he was even lynched. If town had consisted of 4 sciberbia's we would have lynched prplhz and WoS before Oats. You yourself thought Oats was town. Town just made some really nice reads. maybe instant majority makes the game imba for town. idk. tough to say i honestly have no idea. seems close to balanced to me though | ||
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Before people start wondering why there is a game of mafia at the beginning of the RNG DISCUSSION thread lol | ||
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Even with this extreme disparity in 'balance' I,think this game was fun as hell and fair in that the team that played better won the game. I can see how it would be cool if you always had a 50 percent chance to win but imo balancing is bad for a number of reasons as we have been discussing that make the game less fun and less fair. So this is imo the lesser of two evils and imo this game was a success. It seems that some people such as yourself and oats enjoy a game less if you know you are an underdog at the start. I am not one of those people. I think you should just take it as a challenge. I think most people are like that. You know.. like how a bad team in sports still tries their damndest to beat their rivals in a big game. | ||
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Look at dwarf mini. we had you, me, keirathi, hiro.pro, some vet smurf and i forget who else. DoYouHas stomped us all. Would you have predicted that? Look at yanmm. town had palmar bugs toad iamp prom and i won as first time scum. and im not a particularly good scum player. would you have predicted that? I dont think this game was as much of a sure thing as you think it was. I mean yea its hard to prove anything but i dunno i just think scum had a legit chance to win. anyway i have to go. was fun chatting with you all. for some reason i love reading axle's post game posts. | ||
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 1-0 as mafia though. Maybe I could give you some pointers on proper scumplay? I really don't think you'd be able to come up with an objective measure of skill that is any better than winrate. And winrate isn't even that good. Maybe over a huge sample size it would tell you something meaningful. Like someone with a 70% winrate over 50 games has probably been doing more to help their team win than someone with a 30% winrate over the same number games. But it's just really difficult to objectively measure skill in TL mafia. For a lot of reasons. | ||
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On April 12 2013 04:19 Promethelax wrote: gotta co-host first yo, I could use a spare vote count bitch for Les Mafia. How are you with 3pm ADT deadlines? the fuck is 3pm ADT? hold on 18:00 GMT (+00:00) oh you meant 2pm? Yea I could be online at 2pm everyday i think. Sign me up! | ||
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