|
On April 04 2013 17:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
So if I'm getting things right we plan on giving strong town reads effectively VT roles, correct? Though the idea of stopping strong scum roles is appealing, there are a myriad of strong roles in the game and I don't think sacrificing strong townreads that can pick early (and therefore are unlikely to be blocked by anyone) VT roles just to stop scum from picking certain roles is good.
1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT.
2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting.
3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour
4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway.
I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks.
Can u please extrapolate point 3.
I'm not following the logic flow of how your pretext arrives to this outcome.
|
On April 04 2013 19:58 Restraining Order wrote:
But having VTs is also very informative, so you really don't need to mind either way.
Im trying to read between the lines here:
Are you advocating that, "Forced" VTs claim their intended role pick?
That way, if we trust the source, we know that the role is in play?
If so,
I think this is a brilliant idea.
|
On April 04 2013 21:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 21:00 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 19:58 Restraining Order wrote:
But having VTs is also very informative, so you really don't need to mind either way. Im trying to read between the lines here: Are you advocating that, "Forced" VTs claim their intended role pick? That way, if we trust the source, we know that the role is in play? If so, I think this is a brilliant idea. Depending on circumstances. I don't think this is a good idea at all if you are meaning forced VT's should claim when D1 starts.
I am happy to here more from you regarding this.
The thing is, you can claim an *Attempt* on any role and thus become VT - and not a single person other than the hosts can dispute it.
The VT claim is not to separate people into a confirmed town/confirmed scum situation.
In my opinion, it is to set up people for whether they are lying or not; and for strong town reads that are VTs, perhaps identify roles in play.
For those lying/caught lying: it is then up to town to decide whether they are lying to protect their blue role; or lying because they are scum.
In short, we still need to scum hunt effectively.
This just becomes a tool we may be able to use to our advantage in the future.
|
On April 04 2013 21:15 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 19:58 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 19:33 strongandbig wrote:
Afaik pyp games are often determined by "this bullshit". The picking phase strategy is a big part of the game.
And I sort of agree with denying scum roles, but we should limit it to one or maybe two roles, because if we have strong consensus townies early in the order then giving them actual good roles could be very powerful.
Also oats the draft order is public knowledge. K right. So we could just assign roles to all the people. And if they dont picked the assigned role, we kill them, and if they use their role in a way that benefits scum we kill them. And this will totally break the game as PYP, no? why dont we do this?
And how to plan to confirm ppl chose a role or not?
I just like the idea of KISS, figure it out when you drafted based on order.
I have 3 roles im interested in more than others; i assume everyone else is in similar situation
|
On April 04 2013 21:17 yamato77 wrote:
If we do have town reads we trust, and they are picking late in the order, it might be a good idea to use them to check for these roles.
Blatant +1 here
Very wise words from Yamato here.
Let me repeat.
On April 04 2013 21:17 yamato77 wrote:
If we do have town reads we trust, and they are picking late in the order, it might be a good idea to use them to check for these roles.
|
On April 04 2013 21:19 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 21:17 Caller wrote:
what i mean by it tis simple: any vt's claim their intended role, some mafia claim another role that may or may not exist. or maybe they claim a role a higher mafia picked, or they share a pick with a vt. who knows. all that does is give mafia a list of roles in the game, and it does zog all for us. Absolutely correct. You have no way of telling who is telling the truth and you might end up lynching a lot of good town roles just to figure out who is lying.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=11#206
As I mentioned prior.
So far, I disagree.
i think this provides us a tool with which to facilitate scum hunting at some point in the game.
To use the claimed VT information to confirm people is ridiculous. - If that is your fixation, then I can see your point of view clearly.
|
On April 04 2013 21:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 21:22 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:19 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:17 Caller wrote:
what i mean by it tis simple: any vt's claim their intended role, some mafia claim another role that may or may not exist. or maybe they claim a role a higher mafia picked, or they share a pick with a vt. who knows. all that does is give mafia a list of roles in the game, and it does zog all for us. Absolutely correct. You have no way of telling who is telling the truth and you might end up lynching a lot of good town roles just to figure out who is lying. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=11#206As I mentioned prior. So far, I disagree. i think this provides us a tool with which to facilitate scum hunting at some point in the game. To use the claimed VT information to confirm people is ridiculous. - If that is your fixation, then I can see your point of view clearly. Let's say you try to pick CPRdoctor as #3. You get vanilla. You claim you tried to pick CPRdoctor and that you didn't get it when D1 starts. Scum have a member in #1 or #2. You just gave out the town CPRdoc. Scum can even random a kill on #1 or #2 and if the CPRdoc flips town, you have no way of knowing if the other guy is mafia, if the #3 picker is mafia. What's next? Do you kill those guys too? Just to be sure they are not lying? If not, why did you gave out scum role information in the first place?
Or perhaps we just figured out the scum CPRdoctor.
I think as said before, some ppl may be going for "superstar' roles and become Vanilla.
i see value in those disclaiming that the role exists in the game.
It is then up to town to decide how much credence they want to give to the claim.
|
On April 04 2013 21:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 21:52 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:22 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:19 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:17 Caller wrote:
what i mean by it tis simple: any vt's claim their intended role, some mafia claim another role that may or may not exist. or maybe they claim a role a higher mafia picked, or they share a pick with a vt. who knows. all that does is give mafia a list of roles in the game, and it does zog all for us. Absolutely correct. You have no way of telling who is telling the truth and you might end up lynching a lot of good town roles just to figure out who is lying. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=11#206As I mentioned prior. So far, I disagree. i think this provides us a tool with which to facilitate scum hunting at some point in the game. To use the claimed VT information to confirm people is ridiculous. - If that is your fixation, then I can see your point of view clearly. Let's say you try to pick CPRdoctor as #3. You get vanilla. You claim you tried to pick CPRdoctor and that you didn't get it when D1 starts. Scum have a member in #1 or #2. You just gave out the town CPRdoc. Scum can even random a kill on #1 or #2 and if the CPRdoc flips town, you have no way of knowing if the other guy is mafia, if the #3 picker is mafia. What's next? Do you kill those guys too? Just to be sure they are not lying? If not, why did you gave out scum role information in the first place? Or perhaps we just figured out the scum CPRdoctor.I think as said before, some ppl may be going for "superstar' roles and become Vanilla. i see value in those disclaiming that the role exists in the game. It is then up to town to decide how much credence they want to give to the claim. Why do you think so? CPRdoctor is not a bad role if used right. It's a fucking multi shot night vigi! I dont see a point debating this.
Its a role either alignment can want; perhaps even moreso as a personal preference.
|
On April 04 2013 22:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 21:58 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:52 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:22 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:19 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:17 Caller wrote:
what i mean by it tis simple: any vt's claim their intended role, some mafia claim another role that may or may not exist. or maybe they claim a role a higher mafia picked, or they share a pick with a vt. who knows. all that does is give mafia a list of roles in the game, and it does zog all for us. Absolutely correct. You have no way of telling who is telling the truth and you might end up lynching a lot of good town roles just to figure out who is lying. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=11#206As I mentioned prior. So far, I disagree. i think this provides us a tool with which to facilitate scum hunting at some point in the game. To use the claimed VT information to confirm people is ridiculous. - If that is your fixation, then I can see your point of view clearly. Let's say you try to pick CPRdoctor as #3. You get vanilla. You claim you tried to pick CPRdoctor and that you didn't get it when D1 starts. Scum have a member in #1 or #2. You just gave out the town CPRdoc. Scum can even random a kill on #1 or #2 and if the CPRdoc flips town, you have no way of knowing if the other guy is mafia, if the #3 picker is mafia. What's next? Do you kill those guys too? Just to be sure they are not lying? If not, why did you gave out scum role information in the first place? Or perhaps we just figured out the scum CPRdoctor.I think as said before, some ppl may be going for "superstar' roles and become Vanilla. i see value in those disclaiming that the role exists in the game. It is then up to town to decide how much credence they want to give to the claim. Why do you think so? CPRdoctor is not a bad role if used right. It's a fucking multi shot night vigi! I dont see a point debating this. Its a role either alignment can want; perhaps even moreso as a personal preference. So you just argued against yourself? As i said there is no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who isn't and all you are doing by vanilla claims is give scum information about town roles.
Are you a knob head or something?
You are the one who said, #3 who tries for CPR outs the town CPR at #1 or #2.
I was pointing out the fallacy in your logic. i.e. could be town or scum.. not just town.
|
On April 04 2013 22:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:04 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:58 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:52 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:22 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:19 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:17 Caller wrote:
what i mean by it tis simple: any vt's claim their intended role, some mafia claim another role that may or may not exist. or maybe they claim a role a higher mafia picked, or they share a pick with a vt. who knows. all that does is give mafia a list of roles in the game, and it does zog all for us. Absolutely correct. You have no way of telling who is telling the truth and you might end up lynching a lot of good town roles just to figure out who is lying. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=11#206As I mentioned prior. So far, I disagree. i think this provides us a tool with which to facilitate scum hunting at some point in the game. To use the claimed VT information to confirm people is ridiculous. - If that is your fixation, then I can see your point of view clearly. Let's say you try to pick CPRdoctor as #3. You get vanilla. You claim you tried to pick CPRdoctor and that you didn't get it when D1 starts. Scum have a member in #1 or #2. You just gave out the town CPRdoc. Scum can even random a kill on #1 or #2 and if the CPRdoc flips town, you have no way of knowing if the other guy is mafia, if the #3 picker is mafia. What's next? Do you kill those guys too? Just to be sure they are not lying? If not, why did you gave out scum role information in the first place? Or perhaps we just figured out the scum CPRdoctor.I think as said before, some ppl may be going for "superstar' roles and become Vanilla. i see value in those disclaiming that the role exists in the game. It is then up to town to decide how much credence they want to give to the claim. Why do you think so? CPRdoctor is not a bad role if used right. It's a fucking multi shot night vigi! I dont see a point debating this. Its a role either alignment can want; perhaps even moreso as a personal preference. So you just argued against yourself? As i said there is no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who isn't and all you are doing by vanilla claims is give scum information about town roles. Are you a knob head or something? You are the one who said, #3 who tries for CPR outs the town CPR at #1 or #2. I was pointing out the fallacy in your logic. i.e. could be town or scum.. not just town. My point is exactly that. You can't know. How are you going to figure that out?
Seriously, your starting to piss me off.
Find where I state I will believe the claim?
I am saying it is a tool that can be used to catch liars blah blah later down the track.
|
B4 palmar comes in
your = you're
|
On April 04 2013 22:11 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:10 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 22:04 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:58 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:52 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:Let's say you try to pick CPRdoctor as #3. You get vanilla. You claim you tried to pick CPRdoctor and that you didn't get it when D1 starts. Scum have a member in #1 or #2. You just gave out the town CPRdoc. Scum can even random a kill on #1 or #2 and if the CPRdoc flips town, you have no way of knowing if the other guy is mafia, if the #3 picker is mafia. What's next? Do you kill those guys too? Just to be sure they are not lying? If not, why did you gave out scum role information in the first place? Or perhaps we just figured out the scum CPRdoctor.I think as said before, some ppl may be going for "superstar' roles and become Vanilla. i see value in those disclaiming that the role exists in the game. It is then up to town to decide how much credence they want to give to the claim. Why do you think so? CPRdoctor is not a bad role if used right. It's a fucking multi shot night vigi! I dont see a point debating this. Its a role either alignment can want; perhaps even moreso as a personal preference. So you just argued against yourself? As i said there is no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who isn't and all you are doing by vanilla claims is give scum information about town roles. Are you a knob head or something? You are the one who said, #3 who tries for CPR outs the town CPR at #1 or #2. I was pointing out the fallacy in your logic. i.e. could be town or scum.. not just town. My point is exactly that. You can't know. How are you going to figure that out? Seriously, your starting to piss me off. Find where I state I will believe the claim? I am saying it is a tool that can be used to catch liars blah blah later down the track. How?
because its information.
just because we have it now, doesnt mean we need to process it now.
its something that can be stored away, and pulled out post flips, or watever.
im really surprised we have to comment about basics of mafia play here?
|
On April 04 2013 22:13 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:12 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:11 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:10 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 22:04 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:58 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:52 Mocsta wrote:
[quote]
Or perhaps we just figured out the scum CPRdoctor.
I think as said before, some ppl may be going for "superstar' roles and become Vanilla.
i see value in those disclaiming that the role exists in the game.
It is then up to town to decide how much credence they want to give to the claim. Why do you think so? CPRdoctor is not a bad role if used right. It's a fucking multi shot night vigi! I dont see a point debating this. Its a role either alignment can want; perhaps even moreso as a personal preference. So you just argued against yourself? As i said there is no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who isn't and all you are doing by vanilla claims is give scum information about town roles. Are you a knob head or something? You are the one who said, #3 who tries for CPR outs the town CPR at #1 or #2. I was pointing out the fallacy in your logic. i.e. could be town or scum.. not just town. My point is exactly that. You can't know. How are you going to figure that out? Seriously, your starting to piss me off. Find where I state I will believe the claim? I am saying it is a tool that can be used to catch liars blah blah later down the track. How? because its information. just because we have it now, doesnt mean we need to process it now. its something that can be stored away, and pulled out post flips, or watever. im really surprised we have to comment about basics of mafia play here? ??? So why dont we all roleclaim at the start of the game then?
In my humble opinion; the two events are trying to achieve different outcomes.
mass Roleclaim: as far as I understand it, is an attempt to solve the game setup; and establish individuals as confirmed town/scum.
Forced VT claim: is an attempt to understand whether "key roles" are in the game. The action itself should not be used to establish individuals as confirmed town/scum.
I see a clear dichotomy.
|
On April 04 2013 22:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:
EBWOP: It's a possibility that they are town. If you are going to lynch them/cop them you are going to use roles/lynches that could be used otherwise just to figure out their alignment based only on "they could be scum".
If you are wrong about them being mafia, you give mafia information about town roles and where they are. What if mafia kills the town CPRdoctor on N1, and they have a copy cat? What if they swap the role?
People high on draft order tend to die early on either way because it's reasonable to assume they have the best roles in the game. By outing those roles you are giving mafia opportunities to narrow the possibilities where the good roles actually are.
I think where all this comes into play is that you are treating everything literally.
Perhaps when it comes to a "plan" that has not been fleshed out; that is the natural assumption to make. i.e. 1 hard rule that applies to all situations.
To me, the whole concept isnt black/white.
But thats the whole point of this discussion, to brainstorm / refine / implement.
Prior, I was not a fan of yam/sharrant force the draft pick plan. I still am not.
However, I do see merit if people choose to claim the role that made them VT. I am not trying to enforce this as mandatory by any means; I am hoping with enough information out there, people can make an informed decision for themselves.
|
On April 04 2013 22:24 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:23 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:13 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:12 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:11 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:10 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 22:04 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:58 Mocsta wrote:
[quote]I dont see a point debating this.
Its a role either alignment can want; perhaps even moreso as a personal preference. So you just argued against yourself? As i said there is no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who isn't and all you are doing by vanilla claims is give scum information about town roles. Are you a knob head or something? You are the one who said, #3 who tries for CPR outs the town CPR at #1 or #2. I was pointing out the fallacy in your logic. i.e. could be town or scum.. not just town. My point is exactly that. You can't know. How are you going to figure that out? Seriously, your starting to piss me off. Find where I state I will believe the claim? I am saying it is a tool that can be used to catch liars blah blah later down the track. How? because its information. just because we have it now, doesnt mean we need to process it now. its something that can be stored away, and pulled out post flips, or watever. im really surprised we have to comment about basics of mafia play here? ??? So why dont we all roleclaim at the start of the game then? In my humble opinion; the two events are trying to achieve different outcomes. mass Roleclaim: as far as I understand it, is an attempt to solve the game setup; and establish individuals as confirmed town/scum. Forced VT claim: is an attempt to understand whether "key roles" are in the game. The action itself should not be used to establish individuals as confirmed town/scum. I see a clear dichotomy. And if we know the roles in the game, how does that help us? Info is a lazy answer dude.
You are asking hypothetical questions, to hypothetical situations Oatsmaster.
I prefer to deal with the now.
I am just going to have to agree to disagree with you.
|
On April 05 2013 03:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:28 Restraining Order wrote:
Ok, you can keep townhunting them townreads if you want, I sent in my numbers already. They shouldn't be too obtrusive to whatever nonsense you'll come up with, so it's okay. This is like a scumclaim.
Im catching up on the thread and had to take a pause to reply to this.
Not sure what eventuated, but, this is certainly not a scum claim.
Whilst I appreciate some think i am town, and think I am worthy of being a top 5 draft pick.
I submitted my numbers yesterday. Not that it matters, but I RNG'd both numbers.
So; considering I submitted numbers already, I dont find it out of the question that others did as well.
=======
I played with (scum) RO in Mafia LX.
I dont have a strong town read on him; but I have noticed he is significantly more active this game than LX.
Before calling him scum, it may pay to read his filter that game (its only 2 or 3 pages in a 200page game)
|
Caught up.
I like yamato reads a lot.
In particular the Palmar take is very interesting (i.e. feels the need to explain his motives)
======
@ Rayn
Im not hard defending RO; I dont know where I stand with him yet.
Im saying your rational is not alignment indicative.
I thought it might also be beneficial to provide awareness of a scum filter for him.
|
On April 05 2013 10:25 geript wrote:
Mocsta I'm not getting a good feeling about Rayn. Any thoughts about him? Also, you know Oats better than I do. How do you feel about him?
Rayn: I dont have a firm opinion. I think coming up with a plan, and sticking with it: is alignment null.
Im still assessing how he is going about pushing his agenda - which is alignment indicative.
To answer your question in short: If i had a gun to my head i would say: weak town (subject to change)
Oats: In short; weak town.
I am finding that some of his prodding has showed insight into breaking down others thought processes.
In fact, some of the blunt questions he asked me yesterday, I had to think twice about it because on first glance it looked like rubbish, but as I was formulating a response, I realised he had a solid point.
My issue with Oats, and hence why the read is weak is that I am finding his play much more disruptive than usual. I dont have a problem with challenging others ideas; but he doesnt seem to be challenging them to grow the ideas; rather to kill the ideas.
======
I have 2 very strong town reads (i.e. if we went down a forced draft pick, I would trust them with a scum power role)
As for scum reads:
Someone on my radar to evaluate is AustinMCC.
I need to re-read him, but the sentiment I noticed when catching up was:
he came in gave a nice summary of discussion and then left
Whilst not ncessarily scum indicative: it matches his play from personality 2 to a tee. Including the weeooo police start.
|
On April 05 2013 10:33 raynpelikoneet wrote:
and yeah, RO is scum i think.
Can you walk me through this please.
From what I saw, the only build up you had to claiming RO is scum is:
On April 05 2013 03:28 Restraining Order wrote:
Ok, you can keep townhunting them townreads if you want, I sent in my numbers already. They shouldn't be too obtrusive to whatever nonsense you'll come up with, so it's okay.
Where I am having trouble following you is:
I dont see how *only* scum would would or could make a statement like this.
|
On April 05 2013 10:46 yamato77 wrote:
Mocsta, would you walk me through some of the things about Austin's play this game that are similar to Personality 2?
I was casting a FoS. Much the same as you did with Palmar - Both need to input more.
If you want more specifics:
I recall when he entered the thread: that he presented a well written summary of everything that transpired to date; and then finished with an improvement to the concepts discussed.
This can inherently be associated as pro-town behaviour.
The thing is: guys like AustinMCC play like this whether town or scum; so I find the action itself "alignment null".
Instead, I am paying more attention to how he goes about pushing what he "believes in".
So my problem then becomes his disappearing act. After motivating town and presenting pathways to proceed; where was AustinMCC when the the thread took a turn away from "role picking" to 'town hunting".
He was trying to direct play before; so why not re-direct the thread back to "what he believed in".
Perhaps he was just busy, which is why he is on my radar to track further to re-evaluate when information comes up.
As for personality2, he basically did the same thing. Came in and gave pro-town spiels on how to proceed; but rarely followed up and pushed it hard. He also tried to continually challenge marv's ideas to help "grow" them, but always led marv down the wrong track. Basically he plays as the right hand man/key advisor, that is actually not on your side. VERY DANGEROUS.
With the police sirens; he used them in personality 2 to tell people to stop shitting up the thread.
I think he took a similar approach here with the "summary intervention".
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
