EPTHe also didn't have much to say about kenpachi, layabout, or kitaman. Layabout is another player who has really escaped attention despite posting almost nothing and I'll be reading his filter.
The Game [N] - Page 134
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
He also didn't have much to say about kenpachi, layabout, or kitaman. Layabout is another player who has really escaped attention despite posting almost nothing and I'll be reading his filter. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
As I promised I will be re-reading and looking into everyone; specifically zare and glurio today. | ||
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glurio
Germany597 Posts
You tunneled me the whole game and didn't check me? Why? | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
On March 18 2013 09:21 layabout wrote: What do you think of zarepath or WoS? On March 18 2013 10:26 layabout wrote: Right now the 3 wagons are zarepath darthpunk and greymist. I wouldn't want to encourage ppl to do this but the way he calls everyone suspicious of him scum is remarkably town-like. Grey's looks fine to me so ## votezarepath night all On March 19 2013 02:19 layabout wrote: vivax i really like your case on zarepath, particularly the way he calls greymist scum for not pushing him. Isn't that more or less what prom did last game? On March 20 2013 00:26 layabout wrote: What do you make of keirathi's take on zarepath? Layabout has a short filter (5 pages or so) and I recommend that everybody read it. I'm at a point where I'm worried that I can open anybody's filter and become convinced their scum, and so second/third opinions would be very helpful here. The quotes above are everything that layabout saying on Day 1 about me. Note that the only time he mentioned me before actually voting for me was in asking someone ELSE about me, and his vote is more giving town reads on two other wagons than it is actually thinking critically. I think his day 1 lacked any critical thought and was motivated by a desire to be with town. On Day 2, he was very erratic and back-and-forth, seemingly dependent on thread sentiment. He agreed with Ace that VE needed to be lynched (note that WF was as well). Note also this very confusing non-statement about BH's likely scumminess: On March 20 2013 08:27 layabout wrote: It's normal so we have a rough idea, i think in the mafia podcast drh mentioned wanting to use hidden communication roles, if BH is the scum mason and can mason people all the time why would town's only mason be grey's role? Keir was saying that he thinks they will be balanced am i am inclined to agree. So i think it's more likely that his role belongs to town. BH's defense of GK was scummy. His filter looks quite normal for him, i tend to skim his posts. When called out for this whishy-washiness, his response is the least critical way to think about someone whom he seems to be saying quite a bit (without actually saying anything): On March 20 2013 08:39 layabout wrote: Maybe i am not saying this right. I think that there are likely quite a few mason roles in this game because of greymists role, he is a sudo-mason/vig. It would be really weird if that was the only mason role that belongs to town. BH claims mason but a more powerful mason than grey. Either there are no more masons and since grey's mason is so weak i think that would leave BH town. Or there a more masons and one of the masons is scum. I don't like how his scum read of BH, which can only be a scum read when pressed to it by others, is based entirely on town blue-claiming. In fact, he asks for yet another blue claim in the following post: On March 20 2013 10:08 layabout wrote: Haven't filtered WoS since day1, his attitude didn't look good and grey thought he was scum. I want to resolve stuff to do with BH though. If you are a town aligned mason i strongly suggest claiming. night. Why demand a blue claim just to make BH suspicious? Why is this scum read based entirely upon the possible number of masons, and nothing actually within the content of BH? Then in his reads post, he puts BH under a "reasonable to be mafia" section but he is the only one with a caveat: On March 22 2013 10:02 layabout wrote: Players that stand a reasonable chance of being mafia@ Glurio Wade Fell (depending on other roles) TestSubject893 Mr. Wiggles Players that admited to being 3rd party and are currently advocating their own lynch: VisceraEyes So he spends all this time talking about the various ways that BH might be mafia depending upon blue roles, but he actively defends BH from actual content-based arguments: On March 20 2013 00:42 layabout wrote: Vivax that is literally the worst reason to lynch BH i have ever seen or thought of. But for all this talk and discussion about BH, he doesn't actually want any attention on BH: On March 20 2013 08:15 layabout wrote: I don't want to look at BH until we have more masons out or flipped, it's really unlikely that grey would be the only one since he was supposed to be the vig. So for someone who so very much doesn't want BH to be talked about (but is doing it anyway), who is the main object of his pressure? VE, the vet claim who layabout never calls mafia. It's the simple thing to do, he says, etc. Which I find odd, because just before this, he said: On March 20 2013 06:13 layabout wrote: Why the hell is there a push on VE? dude is supertown. But when he caught up and realized that VE may have joined 3P, or at least that others suspected it, he piled on the pressure with the rest of the thread. Why is a townie so carefree with terms like "supertown" if they can so easily toss them aside in favor of joining thread sentiment? What made VE so "supertown" and yet is entirely worthless evidence in the face of VE outing a 3P player and posting the logs? Why does this "supertown" read not give layabout a MINUTE of reconsidering that perhaps VE didn't actually join the 3P, as he obviously posted the entire log (but took time to remove the time stamps)? We don't see evidence of that read actually being a read anywhere in the thread. I posit that only mafia would have the confidence to waltz into a thread where there is a serious push to lynch someone, and before actually catching up on those arguments say "why are we trying to lynch mr. supertown himself?" and then join the thread in trying to lynch that person -- not even on the basis of their scumminess. There is zero consistency with his reads and votes, most of his filter is him asking other people what they think about various people that he hasn't present his own read on yet, and the few times he's forced into making statements one way or the other, as in with BH, he states it both ways and then tries to back out of it awkwardly. His final post is an admission that he doesn't have much time right now, which is the only point that I will give him in his favor right now. But even before then his contributions were lightweight and compromised, and incredibly awkward in anything and everything having to do with BH. | ||
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
On March 20 2013 08:27 layabout wrote: It's normal so we have a rough idea, i think in the mafia podcast drh mentioned wanting to use hidden communication roles Okay, so this is a setup speculation-based argument, not exactly the greatest for forming reads to begin with. if BH is the scum mason and can mason people all the time why would town's only mason be grey's role? Things get confusing here. He enters the hypothetical, essentially stating that BH can only be the scum mason if there is another town mason. Think about that argument for a second, and the number of assumptions that it's based on, and remember that layabout is going out of his way to say this IMMEDIATELY after stating that he doesn't want to look at BH right now. Keir was saying that he thinks they will be balanced am i am inclined to agree. So i think it's more likely that his role belongs to town. The very beginning of this sentence has a minor tell -- he doesn't just say that he thinks mason roles will be balanced, he has to frame it within what someone else has already said -- someone who has already flipped town. But what he's actually saying doesn't make a lot of sense, either. He's assuming that there will be a balanced number of mason roles, and that therefore his role is more likely to belong to town. But if mason roles were balanced, wouldn't that mean that there must be another mafia mason role somewhere that layabout must know about in order for BH to more likely be town? His conclusion seems to be the opposite of the logic he just presented us. Now, you can say, "oh, he just miscommunicated, or made a mistake." If you make a mistake, it is much more likely to be on the logical side of your argument than it is on the actual conclusion side. You don't say that BH is more likely to be town as an accident -- there must be a reason for that, and that reason is not anywhere in this post. I think the reason could be found more in the motivations that drive layabout than in any argument that he's presented. BH's defense of GK was scummy. His filter looks quite normal for him, i tend to skim his posts. So if BH is more likely to be town, why is this statement here? It seems that he still feels like he hasn't produced enough of a read for whoever asked him whether he thought BH was scummy or not, and so he feels compelled to say something more. But this statement reveals that layabout's read of BH has exactly no bearing on his argument that BH is town -- he admits something scummy about BH that I don't think anybody actually cares about, but then tempers that with the statement that BH's filter looks NORMAL, ie, indescript, not worth looking into. And then the final statement he makes, the fact that layabout hasn't actually thoroughly read BH's filter, makes this entire post looks like the most awkward possible dance to avoid saying anything concrete about BH at all. It looks fueled by a motivation to clear himself of any statement about BH's actual scumminess or towniness, an admission that he hasn't given serious thought to a person he is spending a serious amount of time and effort talking about, and an attempt to drive the discussion towards setup and role speculation and away from filter content and rational argument. I think this is an incredibly scummy post, and I think he knew it, too, which is why he posted a follow-up which clarified his statement into "BH might be scum if there is another town mason." But whether that's what layabout meant to say in the first place or not doesn't matter; the confusion and mistakes in this post I've dissected above reveal the motivations and priorities of layabout, and those motivations and priorities are SCUM. ##vote: layabout | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
-Vote counts are completely inconclusive. Confirmed townies voting for other confirmed townies on wagons started by confirmed townies. I can't see any patterns whatsoever even based on vote timings so scum are doing a kickass job of blending in. -Trying to go into this with a fresh read has given me null on both glurio and zarepath. Meta analysis is inconclusive and reads based on activity this game are completely useless since many of our mislynches have been partially based on inactivity. Those people who have been mislynched by us for the most part just don't care, and we've gotten ourselves into a horrible rut because of it. I'm going to continue my read-through and I refuse to give up until I have something concrete to present. | ||
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TestSubject893
United States774 Posts
On March 25 2013 23:52 WaveofShadow wrote: So I didn't even get a roleblock PM last night, dunno wtf is up with that considering the same thing happened as night 2 where my target died. I targeted VE. As I promised I will be re-reading and looking into everyone; specifically zare and glurio today. VE is literally the worst person you could have checked. This is all too much to let slide. You've played exactly like a scum would if they fake claimed, so if you're town you've only got yourself to blame for us mislynching today. ##Vote: WaveofShadow We're killing cosicomics tomorrow if we have it my way. As an aside, I think that The Mirror must be mafia aligned since they clearly didn't fear that VE was perma-bulletproof like the logs implied. | ||
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On March 26 2013 01:13 TestSubject893 wrote: VE is literally the worst person you could have checked. This is all too much to let slide. You've played exactly like a scum would if they fake claimed, so if you're town you've only got yourself to blame for us mislynching today. ##Vote: WaveofShadow We're killing cosicomics tomorrow if we have it my way. As an aside, I think that The Mirror must be mafia aligned since they clearly didn't fear that VE was perma-bulletproof like the logs implied. Yeah, we won't be lynching me today. You say VE is the worst target yet it hasn't mattered since N1 because I've been perma-roleblocked. Why would I bother admitting to you my target if I was scum and inviting these kinds of suspicions towards me? I didn't have to give you my targets either night, I could have just said I was roleblocked and avoided any sort of attention. (Hint: I'm trying to give you guys INFORMATION, however useful or not it may be.) Oh yeah and not to mention the fact that DrH literally read the post you quoted and remembered that he forgot to send me a night/roleblock PM. Totally lying. Anyway, back to my reading failure. | ||
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glurio
Germany597 Posts
On March 26 2013 01:13 TestSubject893 wrote: VE is literally the worst person you could have checked. This is all too much to let slide. You've played exactly like a scum would if they fake claimed, so if you're town you've only got yourself to blame for us mislynching today. ##Vote: WaveofShadow We're killing cosicomics tomorrow if we have it my way. As an aside, I think that The Mirror must be mafia aligned since they clearly didn't fear that VE was perma-bulletproof like the logs implied. What about you? Only had one bullet? | ||
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TestSubject893
United States774 Posts
On March 26 2013 01:20 WaveofShadow wrote: Yeah, we won't be lynching me today. You say VE is the worst target yet it hasn't mattered since N1 because I've been perma-roleblocked. Why would I bother admitting to you my target if I was scum and inviting these kinds of suspicions towards me? I didn't have to give you my targets either night, I could have just said I was roleblocked and avoided any sort of attention. (Hint: I'm trying to give you guys INFORMATION, however useful or not it may be.) Oh yeah and not to mention the fact that DrH literally read the post you quoted and remembered that he forgot to send me a night/roleblock PM. Totally lying. Anyway, back to my reading failure. Its ok for you to play terrible because you're gonna get RBed? That's your excuse? Not gonna cut it. Yeah, we won't be lynching me today. I've never seen anyone but scum express this sentiment. I don't know why'd you'd say this as town. | ||
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TestSubject893
United States774 Posts
It was not within my power to shoot last night. | ||
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On March 26 2013 01:19 zarepath wrote: Yeah, why did you want to get a read on VE? What was your reasoning for that, WoS? Oh, why? Because I was sick of him constantly being at the back of everyone's minds as to whether to start voting for him during the day or not; I was hoping to clear it up one way or the other so we could focus elsewhere and be sure of him. My other target would have been Coag but that would have been a failure as well as you can see. I've already explained my rationale as to night targets; I'm trying to pick people who I view as being out of the spotlight for possible framing/targeting but apparently I've been fairly wrong thus far. Going to have to change my targeting methods, but as I've said it probably won't matter because if we by some miracle manage to hit the scum RB today then I'm dead at night. My worst fear (again, I've stated all of this before, just look into my filter) is that my N1 rolecheck went into some sort of 3rd party/mafia rolecheck immunity in TPS (which would explain his complete lack of presence all game aside from one case that helped to mislynch someone, AND the fact that mafia refuse to NK a confirmed townie). This would essentially make my role do more harm than good all frigging game which would make me incredibly depressed. Believe what you want to believe at this point; I've laid out enough evidence to show you guys that I'm town and I am certainly not going to spend another day defending myself when I haven't contributed anything useful to the game thus far due to my own failures. If you do decide to change your mind and lynch me zare, then go ahead, but then I wouldn't understand what the point of your massive post on layabout was if it's this easy to misdirect you. TestSubject trying to blame the mislynch on me is all well and good; it's just as easy to blame every mislynch we've had so far on the victims, but in the end it's the entire town's fault for the atmosphere we've had so far, including said victims. I'm going to continue my reading throughout the day, but let it be known I will not be defending myself any further, only attempting to contribute to scum-reads. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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TestSubject893
United States774 Posts
On March 26 2013 01:30 WaveofShadow wrote: Oh, why? Because I was sick of him constantly being at the back of everyone's minds as to whether to start voting for him during the day or not; I was hoping to clear it up one way or the other so we could focus elsewhere and be sure of him. My other target would have been Coag but that would have been a failure as well as you can see. I've already explained my rationale as to night targets; I'm trying to pick people who I view as being out of the spotlight for possible framing/targeting but apparently I've been fairly wrong thus far. Going to have to change my targeting methods, but as I've said it probably won't matter because if we by some miracle manage to hit the scum RB today then I'm dead at night. My worst fear (again, I've stated all of this before, just look into my filter) is that my N1 rolecheck went into some sort of 3rd party/mafia rolecheck immunity in TPS (which would explain his complete lack of presence all game aside from one case that helped to mislynch someone, AND the fact that mafia refuse to NK a confirmed townie). This would essentially make my role do more harm than good all frigging game which would make me incredibly depressed. Believe what you want to believe at this point; I've laid out enough evidence to show you guys that I'm town and I am certainly not going to spend another day defending myself when I haven't contributed anything useful to the game thus far due to my own failures. If you do decide to change your mind and lynch me zare, then go ahead, but then I wouldn't understand what the point of your massive post on layabout was if it's this easy to misdirect you. TestSubject trying to blame the mislynch on me is all well and good; it's just as easy to blame every mislynch we've had so far on the victims, but in the end it's the entire town's fault for the atmosphere we've had so far, including said victims. I'm going to continue my reading throughout the day, but let it be known I will not be defending myself any further, only attempting to contribute to scum-reads. You making the most anti-town claim in the history of claims is 100% your fault. If you had just been transparent from the get-go instead of taking a dozen posts to tell us your whole role then I wouldn't give your shitty checks a second thought. If we mislynch you it is your fault, because you explicitly chose to play antitown because of your own emotions (if you are town). In my mind the more likely reason you played antitown is not that you were choosing your emotions over your win condition, but that you were playing toward your wincon all along. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
I didn't suggest he was blue; I was confused as to the result of my night check because it gave me back a green result and a name when I was only expecting the name. Then I was wondering if for whatever reasoning it only gave me alignment; something like giving a 'town-aligned' result to a check on a blue role but then I realized that wouldn't make sense given the description of my role. It's this fact that makes me worry about TPS if only because I could see 'The Fool' being returned as a result to a Godfather-type (or 3P) check. The only reasons I can see for TPS playing the way he has thus far are: a) he has been outed as confirmed townie so he doesn't give a shit anymore - I don't believe this is true because his play hasn't exactly changed since he was outed; hell he even posted that massive case on Ace after he was outed. b) He DOES have some sort of check-immunity c) Like much of the rest of town this game, he never gave a shit to begin with. All of these options suck but due to KISS, I'm forced to believe a/c because in every game I've played so far I haven't seen anything too crazy yet and all of my conspiracy theories thus far have been wrong. I'm still treating him as confirmed town and moving on to Ryu. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On March 18 2013 10:34 cosmicomics wrote: Upon review I am fine with lynching either GreYMisT or zarepath (his latest post really throws me off). Gonna go with GreYMisT because zarepath will quickly expose himself if he is indeed scum. ##Vote: GreYMisT Notice how he isn't voting GreYMisT after explaining why GreYMisT is scum. He is voting GreYMisT because "zarepath will quickly expose himself if he is indeed scum". This reason for voting GreYMisT has nothing to actually do with GreYMisT. On March 23 2013 02:34 cosmicomics wrote: All there is to say about Mr. Wiggles has already been said. Vote Mr.Wiggles Now lets take a look at his day three vote. He references a single post by BH and throws down his vote. Wiggles was probably the single most talked about player this game and this is actually the first time cosmic brings his name up. Again, he doesn't actually bring any evidence to the table, he simply jumps on board with the cases that others have presented. Now onto the important part, his day two push on VE. This is a classic example of the chainsaw defense and I expect it to get a lot of discussion during post game. For those unfamiliar with the chainsaw defense, its a common mafia tactic where you defend your scum buddy by attacking their attacker. cosmic's case against VE: + Show Spoiler + On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: I don't understand why we are scrutinizing Wade Fell and not even glancing over at VisceraEyes. On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: ]There should be absolutely no issue with Wade Fell defending whom he thinks is a town read, unless VisceraEyes suspects that both goodkarma and Wade Fell are scum, and that Wade Fell is defending goodkarma using fabricated evidence. Nothing in VisceraEyes' case indicates that he believes this, so there is no town alibi for saying this. On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: You don't say that someone makes an excellent point, and then totally ignore it when evaluating their play. But that is what VisceraEyes tries to do. He sweeps away something that he himself called "an excellent point" and misconstrues Wade Fell as wasting all his time D1 defending goodkarma, which isn't even scum indicative as his posting shows. On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: Therefore, the magnitude of VisceraEyes' misinterpretation is greater for he is a hypocrite in saying that Wade Fell did nothing, when he himself asserts that Wade Fell made an excellent point. On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: Again, more misinformation. Here VisceraEyes tries to push the idea that Wade Fell's usage of the mason role is indicative of him being scum. He asserts that the mason role should be used to determine alignment first and foremost. Well that's blatantly wrong. There is nothing wrong, and in fact there is something very valuable with masoning a town read in order to bounce around thoughts and ideas. Wade Fell himself explains his mason choice: On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: How is that not a sensible response? It helps Wade Fell solidify his read on goodkarma, and also helps direct goodkarma's scumhunting as Wade Fell acted as his coach. There is very good townie motivations to mason a town read. However VisceraEyes tries to push the idea that Wade Fell used his role poorly and therefore must be scum. On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: Ok. VisceraEyes' hypothesis is that Wade Fell is a scum mason trying to manipulate townies. On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: What VisceraEyes is doing is calling both goodkarma and Wade Fell scum, and using "town goodkarma" as evidence of Wade Fell scum. Only scum do this. This entire attack of VE is essentially a defense of BH, explaining that VE is mafia because he is misrepresenting the posts of a town. His attacks on VE are based on BH being town, but it's as if he has already made up his mind about this. He fails to strongly consider that BH could be mafia and this case is too confident to be pushed by a town player. Now I want to make the single most important part of my case. *IMPORTANT* VisceraEyes claims vet at the beginning of day two on page 54. cosmic does not address the vet claim until the very end of the cycle on page 122. From a town mindset, the single strongest reason for VE not to be mafia is the fact that there was 1 kp on night one, VE claimed the hit, and VE claimed veteran. If I'm going to push VE, I'm most certainly going to accuse VE of lying about the hit and explaining what happened to the missing mafia kp. Instead, he selectively ignores it. This is proof that cosmic was presenting a biased case against VE. He didn't care about VE's alignment, he only cared about the parts of the case he could use to prove that VE was scum. On March 21 2013 03:27 cosmicomics wrote: The most simplest explanation to this whole ordeal is that VisceraEyes is scum, jumping around from target to target to see who will latch without meaningful contribution, made up the 3P business up to sidetrack the town even more, especially since we are deep into D2 without too much consolidation after WaveofShadow claimed. VisceraEyes is scum and making crap up The simplest explanation to this whole ordeal is most certainly not that VE is scum. That would mean that the mafia had withheld their kp or double stacked their shots, VE would fake-claim a hit, and VE would fake-claim a vet. Going into day two, VE was not under so much claim that he required such a drastic move. On March 22 2013 06:57 cosmicomics wrote: Therefore if the night actions suggest that VisceraEyes' claim is indeed valid, then I swallow my pride because it is more likely that VisceraEyes is playing funky than it is for scum to sacrifice one of their KP to fakeclaim vet, and we get down to lynching goodkarma and unfolding things from there. At the end of day two, cosmic finally concedes that it is more likely that VisceraEyes is playing funky than it is for scum to sacrifice one of their KP to fakeclaim vet. Yet, at the end of day two, cosmic is still voting VE in a lynch that was decided by one vote. So why did this reasoning apply when VE was about to get lynched, but not apply moments later? Because it fitted his agenda. If he wanted to get GoodKarma lynched, he would need a abandon his views on VE. Finally, take a look at how cosmic responded to my views of suspicion on him. On March 25 2013 12:50 cosmicomics wrote: Oh yea, upon review I think kitaman27 is scum and I would be glad to duke it out with him tomorrow. He won't be dead (cuz he scum) and I won't be dead (because scum don't shoot potential mislynches). Sorry about the multi-posts. Thinks just came to me as I was reviewing things and I didn't want to lose the thoughts. At no point in the game had he mentioned suspicion of myself. Not once. Now an hour after I mention my intentions to get him lynched, he suddenly had a revelation that pointed to me being scum. He knows the only way to defend himself is to attack me and responds with a textbook omgus. I'm so confident about this one that I'd be willing to offer myself in a 1:1 trade. cosmic is scum Please read through and post your thoughts on this case. We can't have a cycle of inactivity like yesterday. I plan to address glurio, the next time I have the opportunity to post. I still have a mafia read on him. I actually agree that layabout is likely one of the remaining scum as well. | ||
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