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DP.. i know you dont mind his filter.
but pls explain to me how a vote like that with such blatant misrepresentation to jsutify his vote.. can even originate from a townie mindset?
THIS FUCKER just won as bartender in a game (a couple days ago) where Geript famously martyred AS TOWN.. yet he completely ignores this.
On March 21 2013 12:42 Mocsta wrote:To give you context, i *JSUT* finished Day1 15min ago .. so am basically up to date with the thread, cos i been keeping up since i replaced in night 1. TestSubject did nothing notable Day1, other than banter with BH.. which frankly to me is not alignment indicative (as much as ppl are giving credit to newbies for doing it). His vote on GM, comes at a time where he is starting to look suspcious due to the martrying.. whats interesting is that the 2 last ppl that voted after the martrying = Wos & TestSubject, but how they went about the voting is completely different. TestSubject is very cold and distanced. & the vote was an easy +1.. its just very scummy to me The big problem was this though: Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 12:52 TestSubject893 wrote:
Alright, so I finally got caught up. Here's what I've got to say.
GreYMisT seems to be doing the martyr thing we saw vivax and prome do in LX. Its a scummy play and I think its our greatest evidence against anyone right now, so I'll be voting for him.
##Vote: GreYMisT
I'm not sure why DP was getting so much heat earlier, I was happy with his explanation and liked his case against VE. VE made himself look pretty bad and has moved himself to a solid scumread in my book with his comments about town not being able to vote to influence behavior. I refuse to believe he has such a fundamental misunderstanding of the game that he believes that to be true.
I've been putting some thought into BH too and he's definitely someone I'm leaning more and more scum on. He seems to be of the mentality that he's made up his mind on who is scum (apparently me included, for daring to disagree with the mighty BH) and he'll come up with reasons for it later. It made sense last game when he was a cop, but even if he is one this game he can't have checked yet. It adds up to scummy play in my eyes.
Geript and zare have not done themselves any favors either. They still look bad and worse. His sole justification is.. here are examples of ppl who martyred when scum... because greymist martyred The syllogism is... all maryrs are scum => greymist is scum THATS BULLSHIT!!... and scummy reasoning. Its clear town marytr too..look at Geript.. fuck.. even testsubject was in that game. Conveniently he ignores this. He has misconstrued information to support his "distanced" vote. Thats scum guys.. THAT IS SCUM. In fact.. i cant walk away from this. ##Unvote##VOTE: TESTSUBJECT
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On March 21 2013 12:48 ThePeashooter wrote:I'm going to point out something that I see happening around page 93ish. People are trying to say that The Mirror was probably just the mafia fucking with VE. Let me remind you of the OP in case no one else brought it up. Show nested quote +It is possible that your win condition will change at some point during the game. If this event would infuriate you, do not sign up. Measures have been taken to make sure that if this happens, your play should not have to change very much. Try to see it as a new challenge. It would be in your best interest to PM me questions whenever you have them, no matter how trivial they may seem.
I know you're on the phone.. but this has been raised by several
its actually the minority that think it is a mafia mason
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The town TestSubject I played in. had a heavily emotional involvement in the game.
This TestSubject is as distant as the Bartender TestSubject i played with.
your filter Day1 is essentially goading BH by saying a newbie beat him.. whats the point?
Like i said.. WoS voted GM at the same time as u... yet his post shows a lot more care (in contrast to yours)
yours is blatant, "i found an opportunity.. i need to put some justification... let me contort an item i think is applicable... lets throw it down vote." Thats scummy as fuck.
There is nothing to walk me through.. i dont have to convince scum they are scum.
TOWN... SHEEP ME
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On March 21 2013 12:54 DarthPunk wrote:
I don't like matyring and right or not I view it as scummy. Hell I think I even said something about WoS matyring. I understand his view and I think it could come from town
DP.. lets constructively talk about this.
two things can happen
you make me realise im being tunneled
OR
i make you realise you are being "soft"
===========
What was the point of making the martyr comment?
In my opinion, because he wants to provide justification for the +1 vote.
I dont see anything wrong with that, image is important regardless of alignment.
So it comes down to the justification.. Its severely flawed as I have pointed out.
A townie is more willing to look at both sides of the fence before coming to a conclusion.
This guy imemdiately takes the negative representation.. with no clear context in his filter for wanting to hammer GreyMist in that manner.
This is why i think its scummy.
He saw that GreyMist was basically dead, and decided to kick him whilst on the floor.
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On March 21 2013 12:59 TestSubject893 wrote:
You're right that I don't have a heavy emotional investment in this game, I don't really want to be playing because dealing with BH is the opposite of fun.
You're wrong that I was distant as bartender. There was plenty of emotion in that game, go back and look. You've got yourself a case of confirmation bias.
I will just have to agree to disagree.
IMHO.. you came across as innocent in Mafia LX
i recall you asking me "what does sheeping mean"
u barely posted, and when it did, it contained nothing.. we just assumed bad town, which was our fuck up.
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On March 21 2013 13:00 VisceraEyes wrote:Like look at Ace's language. "Look at it from our perspective. See things the way we see them." Look at ideas he's promoting: - Hunting Third Parties
- Town Sentiment Agrees With His Own Perception
But do you know who Ace thinks is scum? No? Because he doesn't mention finding scum at all, or find anything suspicious. He was "catching up" until my thing and now he's all "LYNCH VE HURRY QUICK HE CLAIMED 3P" [rant]Like, I'm town. Regardless of what you think of the Mirror, I am town. Who cares what it says in those mason logs? They're MASON LOGS. But Ace is pushing this idea that "Oh VE has OBVIOUSLY got to be 3P now." Why? I'm not obviously 3P what kind of 3P even THINKS of posting hsi logs ADMITTING it? I declined joining his fucking cult, it doesn't matter what the logs say. SCUM SHOT ME YESTERDAY YOU FUCK[/rant]
I said it before...
Wiggles case reads nice and all
but if ace is scum.. hopless1der is scum.
I want to see why hopeless1der is scum.. cos id ont recall anyone having him as a scum read.
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On March 21 2013 13:03 TestSubject893 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 13:01 Mocsta wrote:On March 21 2013 12:59 TestSubject893 wrote:
You're right that I don't have a heavy emotional investment in this game, I don't really want to be playing because dealing with BH is the opposite of fun.
You're wrong that I was distant as bartender. There was plenty of emotion in that game, go back and look. You've got yourself a case of confirmation bias. I will just have to agree to disagree. IMHO.. you came across as innocent in Mafia LX i recall you asking me "what does sheeping mean" u barely posted, and when it did, it contained nothing.. we just assumed bad town, which was our fuck up. Are you saying I come across as innocent in this game? Because that's not what everyone else is saying. If I wanted to survive as long as possible, I wouldn't be playing the way I am....
no.. i said ur emotionally detached this game
u argued u were emotionally attached mafia LX.. i said. i think you were innocent and still emotionally detached..
henceforth : agree to disagree.
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On March 21 2013 13:00 Wade Fell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 12:59 TestSubject893 wrote:
You're right that I don't have a heavy emotional investment in this game, I don't really want to be playing because dealing with BH is the opposite of fun.
You're wrong that I was distant as bartender. There was plenty of emotion in that game, go back and look. You've got yourself a case of confirmation bias. yeah well dealing with you is the opposite of productive
U gonna throw jabs.. or follow me with a vote, bish
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DP
another way of looking at the vote is this
Town are looking to vote scum *always*
Scum ideally are looking fro *safe* votes..
safe is based on thread sentiment, and can imply starting, joining or hammering the bandwagon
To me, GM posts were townie, until the martyring.. the combination of lurking + martyring, gave credence to a vote on GM. Based on how shitty/leaderless Day1 was, i can understand a vote on GM.
Kenpachi +1'd, Testsubject +1'd, Wos +1'd.
kenpachi i got no idea bout . another then i heard hes a troll
This is WoS martyr follow up vote
On March 18 2013 13:18 WaveofShadow wrote:
As for GM, he holds something in common with zare, in that he also brings up suspicion against me, calls me scummier than DarthPunk, doesn't back it up, and then ignores me completely. His AHA! post reeks of bad towny play (stupid gambit is stupid), but isn't Grey supposed to be a mafia veteran? That kind of 'trap' is something that zare tried to spring on the rest of the town AS a townie in NMM 37 but it only ended up muddling up the whole thread for that day and accomplishing nothing. Greymist's trap seems like an easy way to hide behind the fact that he couldn't be assed to contribute in a positive way and to jump on the first person to call him out for being gone (whether for legit reasons or not) as others have pointed out.
##Vote GreYMisT
Whilst i disagree with the conclusion..(and so did the flip) it is still a *reasonable* mindset to have on the situation.
I dont see a problem with this vote.
Contrast with TestSubject
On March 18 2013 12:52 TestSubject893 wrote:
Alright, so I finally got caught up. Here's what I've got to say.
GreYMisT seems to be doing the martyr thing we saw vivax and prome do in LX. Its a scummy play and I think its our greatest evidence against anyone right now, so I'll be voting for him.
##Vote: GreYMisT
This is a guy who doesnt give a shit.. wants to blend in.. and throws in some "sounds good at first glance" reasoning to feel all safe...
Kenpachi is low on time.. but his vote is blunt and to the point.. it shows confidence
On March 18 2013 12:07 Kenpachi wrote:
So i guess the goodkarma wagon is no more. In that case, i will vote for Greymist instead of zarepeth.
Im not getting that with TestSubject.. the vote is meek.. the vote has a flawed premise (which i believe is intentional).. and the vote comes at a time where TestSubject will not be scrutinised.
As proven by Day2 play... TestSubject loves to de-lurk when called out..
and he is playing SAFE. Mentality that is all aligned with scum play.
This is why i think TestSubject is scum.
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On March 21 2013 13:14 sciberbia wrote:
OK we really need to consolidate. I have no idea what the votecount is at, but I'd imagine there are still several votes on VE and Wiggles. For those of us who don't like those two candidates, we need a candidate to consolidate on. ace/GK/testsubject have all been thrown out there, but there are disagreements. Personally, I'm nullish on all 3. You guys have given meta reads on all 3 that I could choose to trust in, but as far as in-thread evidence, I'm nullish.
Did you read what I wrote? my case is based exactly on in-game behaviour.
Why are you trying to derail the therad further by springing in another person.
I did not make a meta read on TestSubject sciberbia.....
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On March 21 2013 13:14 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 12:59 Mocsta wrote:On March 21 2013 12:54 DarthPunk wrote:
I don't like matyring and right or not I view it as scummy. Hell I think I even said something about WoS matyring. I understand his view and I think it could come from town DP.. lets constructively talk about this. two things can happen you make me realise im being tunneled OR i make you realise you are being "soft" =========== What was the point of making the martyr comment? In my opinion, because he wants to provide justification for the +1 vote. I dont see anything wrong with that, image is important regardless of alignment. So it comes down to the justification.. Its severely flawed as I have pointed out. A townie is more willing to look at both sides of the fence before coming to a conclusion. This guy imemdiately takes the negative representation.. with no clear context in his filter for wanting to hammer GreyMist in that manner. This is why i think its scummy. He saw that GreyMist was basically dead, and decided to kick him whilst on the floor. heaps of people piled onto grey mist when he was popular the same is true for me WoS and Viscera Eyes. I don't view the vote onto greymist as enough to lynch him period. and there are several people I would like to lynch before him. Please trust me on goodkarma. I will look at test subject and whoever else you want me to look at tomorrow. But the reality of the situation is. We should not lynch VE. He is the leading candidate. We should consolidate onto goodkarma, lynch scum, and avoid a VE lynch.
Look.. if i cant get support on TestSubject.
I will consolidate on gk..
but I truly believe TestSubject has a better chance to flip... his defense doesnt even address properly what I came up with.
And i dont have a problem he voted GM. lots of ppl did.. its how he went about it.. it doesnt speak town to me at all.
its a SAFE vote that has been thrown in a SAFE way to beldn in.
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On March 21 2013 13:15 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 13:01 Mocsta wrote:On March 21 2013 13:00 VisceraEyes wrote:Like look at Ace's language. "Look at it from our perspective. See things the way we see them." Look at ideas he's promoting: - Hunting Third Parties
- Town Sentiment Agrees With His Own Perception
But do you know who Ace thinks is scum? No? Because he doesn't mention finding scum at all, or find anything suspicious. He was "catching up" until my thing and now he's all "LYNCH VE HURRY QUICK HE CLAIMED 3P" [rant]Like, I'm town. Regardless of what you think of the Mirror, I am town. Who cares what it says in those mason logs? They're MASON LOGS. But Ace is pushing this idea that "Oh VE has OBVIOUSLY got to be 3P now." Why? I'm not obviously 3P what kind of 3P even THINKS of posting hsi logs ADMITTING it? I declined joining his fucking cult, it doesn't matter what the logs say. SCUM SHOT ME YESTERDAY YOU FUCK[/rant] I said it before... Wiggles case reads nice and all but if ace is scum.. hopless1der is scum. I want to see why hopeless1der is scum.. cos id ont recall anyone having him as a scum read. Why do I have to do that? Regardless of how hopeless1der played, I read Ace as scum based on his own play since he replaced in the game. If I go back and look at Hopeless1der, I'm just going to end up with an analysis riddled with confirmation bias anyways because I already think Ace is scum. I don't see how it's useful to my case against Ace. You said it yourself, if Ace is scum, Hopeless1der is scum, which means that I'm going to read him that way because I'm already biased against him. Instead, can you tell me something Hopeless1der did that makes Ace town despite my analysis? Because I skimmed through his filter, and I'm not seeing anything worthy of exonerating him. Touche, and fair point
I didnt see anything that struck a chord as scummy when reading day 1.
Is hopeles1der a solid scum player? or a sandroba type - lurks as scum guy?
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On March 21 2013 13:23 TestSubject893 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 13:19 Mocsta wrote:
DP
another way of looking at the vote is this
Town are looking to vote scum *always*
Scum ideally are looking fro *safe* votes..
safe is based on thread sentiment, and can imply starting, joining or hammering the bandwagon
To me, GM posts were townie, until the martyring.. the combination of lurking + martyring, gave credence to a vote on GM. Based on how shitty/leaderless Day1 was, i can understand a vote on GM. This is simply not true. Tons of people saw his posts as scummy, including myself. The fact that your entire push for me is based on this shows that the whole thing is flawed. Disagree..
Your Day1 filter has more posts relating to gk than GM.
you show no interest in the GM push till after the martyr.
I dont see how can you say what i said is not true. GM flipped town/blue. And my opinion was, GM was pretty fuckn town until the martyr episode.. the combination of that + lurking, to me would give me consideration to vote him given the candidates on the table.
So get off your high horse.. you saw an easy opportunity to have ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY and took it.
Show nested quote +Kenpachi +1'd, Testsubject +1'd, Wos +1'd. kenpachi i got no idea bout . another then i heard hes a troll This is WoS martyr follow up vote On March 18 2013 13:18 WaveofShadow wrote:
As for GM, he holds something in common with zare, in that he also brings up suspicion against me, calls me scummier than DarthPunk, doesn't back it up, and then ignores me completely. His AHA! post reeks of bad towny play (stupid gambit is stupid), but isn't Grey supposed to be a mafia veteran? That kind of 'trap' is something that zare tried to spring on the rest of the town AS a townie in NMM 37 but it only ended up muddling up the whole thread for that day and accomplishing nothing. Greymist's trap seems like an easy way to hide behind the fact that he couldn't be assed to contribute in a positive way and to jump on the first person to call him out for being gone (whether for legit reasons or not) as others have pointed out.
##Vote GreYMisT Whilst i disagree with the conclusion..(and so did the flip) it is still a *reasonable* mindset to have on the situation. I dont see a problem with this vote. Contrast with TestSubject On March 18 2013 12:52 TestSubject893 wrote:
Alright, so I finally got caught up. Here's what I've got to say.
GreYMisT seems to be doing the martyr thing we saw vivax and prome do in LX. Its a scummy play and I think its our greatest evidence against anyone right now, so I'll be voting for him.
##Vote: GreYMisT This is a guy who doesnt give a shit.. wants to blend in.. and throws in some "sounds good at first glance" reasoning to feel all safe... Kenpachi is low on time.. but his vote is blunt and to the point.. it shows confidenceOn March 18 2013 12:07 Kenpachi wrote:
So i guess the goodkarma wagon is no more. In that case, i will vote for Greymist instead of zarepeth. Im not getting that with TestSubject.. the vote is meek.. the vote has a flawed premise (which i believe is intentional).. and the vote comes at a time where TestSubject will not be scrutinised. As proven by Day2 play... TestSubject loves to de-lurk when called out.. and he is playing SAFE. Mentality that is all aligned with scum play. You think this is me playing safe? Did you see last game? You're pressuring me more in this post than everyone last game did combined, and I did it all while avoiding getting killed at night too. This is not my "safe" game play.
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I think DP is town because of the openness in his play
I think he OMGUS me yesterday.. but on Day1.. i think the stuff on Geript was taken way out of context and there was no OMGUS
Like what pissed me off reading day1 was that most of the votes were centered about
inactivty
instead of scummy agenda.
but yeah in short.. quite a few times on dp i felt like he has communicated exactly what was on his mind, and was trying to aid town.. i actually didnt mind his VE case either.. im really surprised it gained no traction.
There are valid points in it.. and VE game is "OFF" for shizzle.
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On March 21 2013 13:37 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 13:35 TranceStorm wrote:On March 21 2013 13:34 WaveofShadow wrote:On March 21 2013 13:32 TranceStorm wrote:
Holy hell. Where were you to post that case a few hours ago Wiggles? Its certainly the best case I've seen yet for this lynch -> Ace has done next to nothing this game besides post a few vague suspicions and jump onto the VE lynch. The most damning evidence I've seen yet, as Wiggles points out, is the fact that Ace says "We aren't going to stop scumhunting: that would be dumb.", but does no analysis or anything else during the entire day! Voting for VE certainly cannot have been too taxing on his part, why not help the town out? This is the scummiest shit I've ever seen. I am convinced no one in this game knows how to play town or something. Really? How is Ace defensible? What's wrong with Wiggles' case against him? It had nothing to do with Ace being defensible or Wiggles' case, it's your shameless +1 without adding anything at all. 'HAY GUYS DIS CASE RL GOOD I SHOW U WHY' and then you literally repeat what is in Wriggle's post. Which of you guys was it who found TS scummy again? I can't keep track of anything anymore in this thread.
It was me.
& I agree, this is the same rationale
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On March 21 2013 13:38 TestSubject893 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 13:29 Mocsta wrote:On March 21 2013 13:23 TestSubject893 wrote:On March 21 2013 13:19 Mocsta wrote:
DP
another way of looking at the vote is this
Town are looking to vote scum *always*
Scum ideally are looking fro *safe* votes..
safe is based on thread sentiment, and can imply starting, joining or hammering the bandwagon
To me, GM posts were townie, until the martyring.. the combination of lurking + martyring, gave credence to a vote on GM. Based on how shitty/leaderless Day1 was, i can understand a vote on GM. This is simply not true. Tons of people saw his posts as scummy, including myself. The fact that your entire push for me is based on this shows that the whole thing is flawed. Disagree.. Your Day1 filter has more posts relating to gk than GM. you show no interest in the GM push till after the martyr. I dont see how can you say what i said is not true. GM flipped town/blue. And my opinion was, GM was pretty fuckn town until the martyr episode.. the combination of that + lurking, to me would give me consideration to vote him given the candidates on the table. So get off your high horse.. you saw an easy opportunity to have ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY and took it. Kenpachi +1'd, Testsubject +1'd, Wos +1'd. kenpachi i got no idea bout . another then i heard hes a troll This is WoS martyr follow up vote On March 18 2013 13:18 WaveofShadow wrote:
As for GM, he holds something in common with zare, in that he also brings up suspicion against me, calls me scummier than DarthPunk, doesn't back it up, and then ignores me completely. His AHA! post reeks of bad towny play (stupid gambit is stupid), but isn't Grey supposed to be a mafia veteran? That kind of 'trap' is something that zare tried to spring on the rest of the town AS a townie in NMM 37 but it only ended up muddling up the whole thread for that day and accomplishing nothing. Greymist's trap seems like an easy way to hide behind the fact that he couldn't be assed to contribute in a positive way and to jump on the first person to call him out for being gone (whether for legit reasons or not) as others have pointed out.
##Vote GreYMisT Whilst i disagree with the conclusion..(and so did the flip) it is still a *reasonable* mindset to have on the situation. I dont see a problem with this vote. Contrast with TestSubject On March 18 2013 12:52 TestSubject893 wrote:
Alright, so I finally got caught up. Here's what I've got to say.
GreYMisT seems to be doing the martyr thing we saw vivax and prome do in LX. Its a scummy play and I think its our greatest evidence against anyone right now, so I'll be voting for him.
##Vote: GreYMisT This is a guy who doesnt give a shit.. wants to blend in.. and throws in some "sounds good at first glance" reasoning to feel all safe... Kenpachi is low on time.. but his vote is blunt and to the point.. it shows confidenceOn March 18 2013 12:07 Kenpachi wrote:
So i guess the goodkarma wagon is no more. In that case, i will vote for Greymist instead of zarepeth. Im not getting that with TestSubject.. the vote is meek.. the vote has a flawed premise (which i believe is intentional).. and the vote comes at a time where TestSubject will not be scrutinised. As proven by Day2 play... TestSubject loves to de-lurk when called out.. and he is playing SAFE. Mentality that is all aligned with scum play. You think this is me playing safe? Did you see last game? You're pressuring me more in this post than everyone last game did combined, and I did it all while avoiding getting killed at night too. This is not my "safe" game play. [By safe. i mean ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY Guess what? "ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY" isn't very safe now is it? Here we are fighting about it. Does my play last game not show you that I understand what will get scrutiny and what won't? You're seeing what you want to see. Its clear there's no talking you off this. How is that a retort?
If anything your last game, completely shows you are aware... i actually give you credit for the 3rd party win.. for 2 reasons
(1) you managed to blend in perfectly
(2) you doused ppl that were not likely to be lynched OR shot.. this shows hyper-awareness for thread sentiment.
Yes, i was going to kill you, which is prob why you ignited.. but whatevs.. u earnt the win.
and i cant believe you are trying to argue zero accountability is not safe.
its fuckn safe.. cos you trying to blend in again.. im calling you out cos im the only one who has noticed.
no1 has actually refuted my points. Including you.
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Even if wiggles case on Ace reads well...
quite a few had a scum read on him
how can you proceed to vote for your scum reads case; and not even scrutinise either the case itself, or wiggles agenda?
Best case scenario:
We lynch scum Ace.. does Wiggles become confirmed town?
Worst case scenario:
We lynch mislynch Ace.. what happens to Wiggles? you guys didnt critique the case, he gets to walk away scot-free.
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On March 21 2013 13:47 TranceStorm wrote:
Look. I read through all of the cases, and with all of them there is some doubt as to how true they might be. I cannot see any reason why not to vote for Ace. Everyone else who hasn't voted for him gives some skimpy reason for not doing so. For example, Mocsta argues that Hopeless1der didn't appear to be that scummy. That doesn't matter, if someone appears to be town on D1, but really scummy on D2 that shouldn't mean that you should withhold your vote.
OK, reason with me
Why is my TestSubject case, less valid than Ace
My case is predicated on in-game behaviour.. that captures scum mentality.
Wiggles case is meta.. on a guy, who rarely plays anymore, and is more than capable of "changing it up"
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On March 21 2013 13:50 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Well, I have to leave now to go sleep, but I'd like to wake up to Ace flipping red.
The push-back to the case has been weird, with people saying that it's a strong case, but it's too late to vote for him, when there's now 4 votes on him, and several people have been swapping votes or trying to bring up other counter-wagons at the same time.
Remember to think critically about it though, and not just sheep. I want people to vote with me because they agree with the case, not because it becomes some popular bandwagon.
Sweet dreams.
The case reads great
my problem is.. you have chosen one game.. out of the ?i dunno hundred+? games ace has played to highlight the meta inconsistency
That doesnt cut it.. Players with his game count, will have a game that highlights a specific behaviour set.. they change it up.
I think Ace needs more time to establish his agenda... i didnt like his pushes on VE yesterdya, in fact, a lot of the quotes you posted, were in response to me calling him out.
So yes, the case reads great.. but i want to still see more.. its like sandroba. great player, and should be allowed a full cycle in the game.
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On March 21 2013 13:49 geript wrote:
3. Test for martyring is scummy, emotionally detached and safe votes. Martyring should be a policy lynch from here forth but can be done from either side.
Dude.. if im being tunneled. i will take a breather and come back
Your the psychology guy.. do you really think the things i poitned out on test, could come from either alignment?
Test didnt martyr either, so i get the impression perhaps you have not read my case in detail.
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EPT
