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Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 27 2013 09:34 GMT

#1403

On February 27 2013 18:30 Vivax wrote:

Show nested quote +

This post made my scumdar go off, this guy asked two questions about OO earlier but stopped pushing him despite posting the posts at the bottom earlier.

He's currently agreeing with VE on Toad, but he never pressures Oo despite having a scumread on him, he just keeps asking others about their opinion on him.

Show nested quote +

I've been waiting to see if Obvious was inclined to do anything useful on his own. Only so much you can learn from pressure.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 27 2013 09:43 GMT

#1407

On February 27 2013 18:39 Vivax wrote:
What's your read of Prom aqua?

Likely scum, mostly based on his failure to try to make much of anything happen with the RNG lynch gambit. A fair fraction of my wish to lynch him is based on sheeping people who know him much better than me though.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 27 2013 09:46 GMT

#1409

Vivax, I'll be a little clearer about my current strategy. I could be more aggressive and push scumreads more, but the lynch is a bit of an empty threat at the moment given the general consensus on Prom being today's lynch. At the moment I'm mostly just asking questions to generate more information for analysis later.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 27 2013 09:54 GMT

#1412

On February 27 2013 18:47 Vivax wrote:

Show nested quote +

You flipflopped pretty quickly on Prom's RNG gambit while subtly trying to switch attention to Oo throughout and afterwards. I don't see you mentioning Prom after this.

Prom's RNG behaviour went from a townie gambit to a scummy failure. I don't see what changed in between for you.

Could you mention other reasons for why you think he's scum?

I didn't see any further purpose to mentioning Prom after that. I was convinced by the case and it's hardly like the Prom lynch has been discussed a whole lot since.

I originally thought that people were thinking Prom scummy for the RNG gambit in as of itself, which I didn't agree with. When his lack of actual effort in trying to make the gambit successful was highlighted I went back and read it myself and agreed. As for other reasons... go back and read the case Wade quoted at me, though the lack of effort into the gambit was the only part I'm firmly convinced has no likely town explanation.

And yeah, I still think OO's scum and if his play doesn't convince me otherwise by tomorrow I'll push for his lynch.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 27 2013 10:22 GMT

#1418

On February 27 2013 19:03 Vivax wrote:
That's all then. Could you take a look at Hassy and tell me if you see anything scummy?

There's not much to look at :/

For someone running for Pardoner (in his first post) Hassy hasn't put any effort since into looking town... which one would think would be a prerequisite, given that pretty much the only point of the role for town is to keep it out of scum's hands.
His throwaway bid for Pardoner, without any followup in terms of campaigning, is slightly scummy - I can well imagine a scum trying for the role, then ignoring it and slipping away when his bid doesn't gain any traction.

Besides that all he's done is talk a little with OO which is null for me without anything further in his filter to correlate with it. Obviously I'm hoping for more content when he's less busy.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 27 2013 10:34 GMT

#1421

On February 27 2013 19:28 Vivax wrote:
...and then proceeds to say: Oh well, I'll stick to Prom/Vivax and fucks off.

I think he was telling OO to stick to Prom/Vivax, not that those were the only people Hassy was looking at.

On February 27 2013 10:18 ObviousOne wrote:

Show nested quote +

Between Prom/Vivax or are you talking about any other candidates?

On February 27 2013 10:21 Hassybaby wrote:
Lets stick with Prom/Virax for now

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 27 2013 10:39 GMT

#1424

OO specifically asked if Hassy wanted him to discuss Prom/Vivax... I don't see how Hassy's post could be anything but an answer to OO's post which I quoted.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 27 2013 10:48 GMT

#1427

On February 27 2013 19:38 Vivax wrote:
Besides, what's more suspicious is that he asks Oo to narrow down a 5-dude-list when there's layabout posting a 7-dude list and saying we shouldn't lynch Prom.

Oo was under pressure, layabout wasn't.

Hassy wants to lynch me and Prom, yet asks the guy with Prom in his list to narrow it down and ignores layabout.

Given the timestamps I imagine Hassy made that post asking OO about his list before seeing Layabout's post. I doubt he saw them both and decided to only pressure OO.
The fact that Hassy didn't also ask Layabout about his list afterwards is odd though I agree.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 27 2013 21:38 GMT

#1554

Well, I'd prefer WF for mayor over VE or DocH because I have a slightly better read on him. If that's not going to happen I'm satisfied with VE.

I will have to leave in half-an-hour and won't be back until after deadline so if my vote has to go somewhere to satisfy whatever our plan is tell me now.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 27 2013 22:06 GMT

#1580

On February 28 2013 07:03 GreYMisT wrote:
Day 1 Mayor Vote Count

Wade Fell (6): ~~Toadesstern~~, ~~VisceraEyes~~, ~~VisceraEyes~~, DoctorHelvetica, Aquanim, ~~glurio~~, ~~vivax~~, JungleJorge, Chezinu, ObviousOne, Wade Fell

VisceraEyes (7): ~~VisceraEyes~~, Promethelax, ~~VisceraEyes~~, ~~Toadesstern~~, ~~ObviousOne~~, ~~glurio~~, Hassybaby, ~~VisceraEyes~~, The Macho Man, Restraining Order, ~~TestSubject893~~, grush57, randombum, ~~geript~~, WaveofShadow

DoctorHelvetica (5): ~~Toadesstern~~, Milksuckler, ~~layabout~~, VayeshMoru, jcarlsoniv, glurio, VisceraEyes

Promethelax (5): geript, TestSubject893, Toadesstern, Vivax, Layabout
At the moment VisceraEyes is to be elected Mayor and DoctorHelvetica is to be elected Pardoner

Wait, what?

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 27 2013 22:08 GMT

#1586

My vote sticks on Wade. Y'all should consolidate on one or the other though to avoid shenanigans. See you in a few hours.

EBWOP: The point of the above was that Wade has more votes than DocH but DocH is set to be pardoner, is there something I'm missing?

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 28 2013 05:53 GMT

#1917

Heyoo I'm back.

So, these cases.

OO's case

On February 28 2013 11:50 ObviousOne wrote:

Show nested quote +

Aquanim believes that the Obvious One is a member of the cultist faction.

His reasons are:

writing very much while saying very little
having the faintest of ideas of who might be a cultist less than one hour into the show
acting out as if I were a petulant child

To these statements, I say that I am indeed guilty.

Guilty. As. Charged.

These aren't the reasons I said you were scum. I said you were scum for

not posting anything useful (not for writing a lot because you hadn't done that either)
giving a scumread with a reason that wasn't a reason at all
overreacting to my suspicion

So you've twisted what I said a little here.

Let us now, however, turn the tables and see how well the Aquatic One follows his own advice.

One case which he has been tunneling on for 48 hours:

Show nested quote +

When Aquanim is not busy telling everyone that I am definitely scum, he is asking questions. A great many questions. His case on me from two real days ago seems to be able to stand on its own legs despite the vast amount of further spam and pointless drivel I have provided and he has NOT sought to strengthen his case with the newest information up to this point? If he hasn't developed his case on me, where are the other scum reads he has promised? To this I say, we shan't let you get off on coasting with having a single solitary voluntary scum read outside of the two most promising lynch candidates of Day 1. You cannot, as I have done, sit back and simply ask questions and go along with the prevailing theories of town while keeping me as your scum read and not keeping up on developing your case. I'd believe you were town if you had been pushing your own read as evidence developed. You are no better than I.

The case will indeed be developed further with my thoughts on your more recent play. Stay tuned.

Or how about the fact that both of us ask lots of questions, though we may choose different people to ask?
Observe both of our filters, and see how each of us has many many questions and very little opinion or analysis. Either Aquanim is playing the same relative level of town that I am or he knows I'm town and has used my early read as an opportunistic strike to put me on my back foot. Again, nothing he has said about me is wrong, but his filter is not too much different.

I'm not intentionally trying to be useless, I just have some level of bi-polar tendencies in that some days are good and others are bad, and the gap between is rather wide. Yesterday was bad, hopefully tomorrow is good.

Show nested quote +

Well this is a straight-up OMGUS. Pretty much everything in this case is complaining about my case on you (and perhaps how it applies to me as well).

I didn't really see the point in posting serious cases after about midway through D1. I much prefer to pressure someone when I can actually threaten them with a lynch, and the Prom lynch was pretty much cemented. My play was focusing on dissecting cases made by other people (geript and Vivax in particular iirc) and thinking about whether they were sincere.

JJ's case

On February 28 2013 13:02 JungleJorge wrote:

Show nested quote +

While reading through prom's filter I noticed his interactions with aquanim looked pretty forced. I decided then to investigate further and came across this gem. Notice he wants to vote Wade Fell and DocH, both of which intend to lynch prom and that is the main driving force of their campaign as mayor. But look he hasn't even a formed opinion on prom still, and we get even a soft defense as a bonus! Look at the tone of this whole post and how noncommittal he is with everything he says regarding other players. Now why would a player who doesn't believe prom is scum would ever "vote for DocH if he wanted it"? The sheer inherent guilt from this post is sickening.
I'm extremely confident this man is scum, even more so than TMM and RO. If we have any vigs take a shot at this man.

I was happy with a vote for WF or DocH because I thought DocH was town and after talking to him about the Prom case I was very sure WF was town (see: mayoral vote). My priority for mayor was voting for a strong player whom I had a town read on. If I had convinced myself that Prom was town, I'd have tried to convince them of it rather than switching to someone else. Not having a firm opinion on Prom isn't inconsistent with wanting WF or DocH as mayor.

Also, I don't see how this is a defence of Prom. I said "I don't know whether this case is good". At that point I didn't. Saying that the case was "mostly based on trends in his play rather than specifically scummy actions" wasn't a statement that the case was bad, merely that without a better understanding of Prom's meta (and thus his trends as town or scum) I couldn't reach a firm conclusion.
For the record I never did end up looking at Prom's meta - his failure to try to make anything happen with his RNG gambit was in fact a "specifically scummy action" and was the point that convinced me.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 28 2013 06:53 GMT

#1925

On February 28 2013 15:42 MilkSuckler wrote:

Show nested quote +

Aqua,

The above is *really* conflicting my thought process on you. I need a fleshed out response.

Show nested quote +

Please keep in mind the below:
Our conversation of RNG during the pre-game of NMM37.
The crux of Toad point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
The crux of VE point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
The crux of Dr.H point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
The crux of MilkSuckler point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
The crux of Wade Fell point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
The points Wade walked you through introduced nothing that the others points did not already address

Well, I'm still convinced that RNG is bad. Discussing it might not have been, and I thought that people were claiming that the gambit itself was scummy. Until Wade emphasised it I hadn't realised just how little effort Prom had put into trying to get it discussed. Perhaps that had been emphasised earlier, I have no idea - this is a large thread and I haven't read it all thoroughly.

In any case, asking WF those questions had another purpose - exploring just how much conviction he had for the case, and how thoroughly he had thought it through.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 28 2013 07:18 GMT

#1934

I want to know specifically how you think RNG discussion can be beneficial to town discussion, considering that was a major reason of you not accepting the case (initially)

Lemme lay out a possible scenario.

Promethelax runs for mayor on the platform of a RNG lynch
Someone calls bullshit
On February 26 2013 09:19 JungleJorge wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 26 2013 09:12 Promethelax wrote:
On February 26 2013 09:09 MilkSuckler wrote:
On February 26 2013 09:07 Promethelax wrote:
1. Vote for me, vote for RNG. I have a 1 in five shot at lynching scum and it will be hilariously awesome,

You gonna include yourself in that RNG dear

If I am allowed to lynch myself day one. Yes. I believe in true RNG.

Isn't that retarded as both alignments?
Promethelax tells them they're stupid
On February 26 2013 09:30 Promethelax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 26 2013 09:19 JungleJorge wrote:
On February 26 2013 09:12 Promethelax wrote:
On February 26 2013 09:09 MilkSuckler wrote:
On February 26 2013 09:07 Promethelax wrote:
1. Vote for me, vote for RNG. I have a 1 in five shot at lynching scum and it will be hilariously awesome,

You gonna include yourself in that RNG dear

If I am allowed to lynch myself day one. Yes. I believe in true RNG.

Isn't that retarded as both alignments?

Yes? But the idea of a random lynch is good. You should be able to see why. Assuming you don't suck, which I'm assuming.
Entering the realm of hypothesis where town prom did this: some scum attacks prom for making a bad case
On Feburary 30 2013 26:04 Some imaginary scum wrote
Show nested quote +
Yes? But the idea of a random lynch is good. You should be able to see why. Assuming you don't suck, which I'm assuming.

That post is terrible and wrong
u scum bro lolol
Prom nails them for making a shitty case
On February 26 2013 09:07 Imaginary Town Promethelax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On Feburary 30 2013 26:04 Some imaginary scum wrote
Yes? But the idea of a random lynch is good. You should be able to see why. Assuming you don't suck, which I'm assuming.

That post is terrible and wrong
u scum bro lolol

yeah the post was stupid but how does it have scum mentality? your case is bad and a townie wouldn't make it
no u scum. bro.

tl;dr - baiting scum to attack you (in a way which will expose them as scum) by making an easily attackable post is a conceivable town tactic.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 28 2013 07:37 GMT

#1950

On February 28 2013 16:28 MilkSuckler wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 28 2013 16:18 Aquanim wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

I want to know specifically how you think RNG discussion can be beneficial to town discussion, considering that was a major reason of you not accepting the case (initially)

Lemme lay out a possible scenario.

Promethelax runs for mayor on the platform of a RNG lynch
Someone calls bullshit
On February 26 2013 09:19 JungleJorge wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 26 2013 09:12 Promethelax wrote:
On February 26 2013 09:09 MilkSuckler wrote:
On February 26 2013 09:07 Promethelax wrote:
1. Vote for me, vote for RNG. I have a 1 in five shot at lynching scum and it will be hilariously awesome,

You gonna include yourself in that RNG dear

If I am allowed to lynch myself day one. Yes. I believe in true RNG.

Isn't that retarded as both alignments?
Promethelax tells them they're stupid
On February 26 2013 09:30 Promethelax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 26 2013 09:19 JungleJorge wrote:
On February 26 2013 09:12 Promethelax wrote:
On February 26 2013 09:09 MilkSuckler wrote:
On February 26 2013 09:07 Promethelax wrote:
1. Vote for me, vote for RNG. I have a 1 in five shot at lynching scum and it will be hilariously awesome,

You gonna include yourself in that RNG dear

If I am allowed to lynch myself day one. Yes. I believe in true RNG.

Isn't that retarded as both alignments?

Yes? But the idea of a random lynch is good. You should be able to see why. Assuming you don't suck, which I'm assuming.
Entering the realm of hypothesis where town prom did this: some scum attacks prom for making a bad case
On Feburary 30 2013 26:04 Some imaginary scum wrote
Show nested quote +
Yes? But the idea of a random lynch is good. You should be able to see why. Assuming you don't suck, which I'm assuming.

That post is terrible and wrong
u scum bro lolol
Prom nails them for making a shitty case
On February 26 2013 09:07 Imaginary Town Promethelax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On Feburary 30 2013 26:04 Some imaginary scum wrote
Yes? But the idea of a random lynch is good. You should be able to see why. Assuming you don't suck, which I'm assuming.

That post is terrible and wrong
u scum bro lolol

yeah the post was stupid but how does it have scum mentality? your case is bad and a townie wouldn't make it
no u scum. bro.

tl;dr - baiting scum to attack you (in a way which will expose them as scum) by making an easily attackable post is a conceivable town tactic.

##Vig: Aquanim

Wrong answer

The conversation I had with Prome pre-game actually supports your hypothesis.
the problem is: promes actions in-game....Which conveniently you quoted for me already

Show nested quote +

Let me bring to the fore points I raised in my case of Prome

Show nested quote +

There is no fucking way a townie goes about achieving a trap like that the way prome went about it.
I actually have respect for your play; and know you pride yourself on picking up bullshit like what Prome did.

That you turn a blind eye (repeatedly)... well... there is nothing to say

I lol'd
Pretty sure you town though, this feels like town Mocsta logic.

Like I said, I didn't read the entire thread in detail. Your posts are hard to read at the best of times and I didn't read all of your arguments in detail, so if you said it before WF I guess I just didn't see it.

Having looked at the roles I'm pretty sure I can't possibly be dead before the daypost. I'll post my reads sometime.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 28 2013 07:40 GMT

#1953

Wrong answer

Out of curiosity, what would have been the right answer? If there wasn't one, maybe you oughta reexamine your read for confirmation bias...

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 28 2013 07:46 GMT

#1958

On February 28 2013 16:40 Aquanim wrote:

Show nested quote +

Out of curiosity, what would have been the right answer? If there wasn't one, maybe you oughta reexamine your read for confirmation bias...

Yo MilkSuckler, I'm not dead quite yet. Answer the question.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 28 2013 08:00 GMT

#1963

On February 28 2013 16:48 MilkSuckler wrote:

Show nested quote +

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399294&currentpage=97#1940

You gave the right answer... thats why it is the wrong answer.

You have proven you understand the reasoning behind town/scum logic with RNG discussion.
Yet is ~~clear~~ VERY clear.. promes actions do not support the sound reasoning you proposed.
You even quote his behaviour and turn a blind eye.

For me:
This actually for me proves you are scum.. you KNOWINGLY turned a blind eye to what you know (as a townie) *stinks*

I conclude with:

Show nested quote +

This isn't actually an answer to my question. If there weren't any answers I could have given that would have changed your mind why did you ask the question in the first place?

Also...

Yet is ~~clear~~ VERY clear.. promes actions do not support the sound reasoning you proposed.

I don't really agree with this, and it certainly wasn't clear to me at the time. F'rinstance, I thought at the time that Prom insulting the first player to question him was designed to rile people up more and try to provoke a response, which would have been a good townie tactic.

Your case is still assuming that I have completely read the thread and thought hard about all of it, which is already longer than any games I've previously played. I've been busy since the game started and thus haven't had time to think critically about all 25 players.

What exactly is scummy about me not realising Prom's gambit wasn't done well until it was specifically pointed out? Do you seriously think the entirety of my filter reflects a scummy player? I know you, and I know how many townies you've tunneled based on a single perceived inconsistency. You're doing it again.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 28 2013 08:03 GMT

#1964

EBWOP: Take a good, long look at your read and see whether you think you're making the mistake. And if you don't do it now, promise you'll do it when I flip.

Aquanim

Australia2849 Posts

February 28 2013 08:03 GMT

#1965

EBWOP again: the same mistake.

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