EPTNomination Mafia - Page 113
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 23 2013 20:08 Promethelax wrote: My apologies. I don't feel I overstepped any bounds since all of my advice was in the form of obnoxious questions and not a out alignments "oh you think X is town/scum? Why do you think that? You should be able to prove your reads" or similar. It was never my intention to do anything to affect the game. If you feel my actions were un kosher I'm very willing to take a one game ban or a warning for them. As I said, I'm not going to seek punishment, just don't do it, the running around saying you know the mafia team is obnoxious, the spreading it around is risky, and the talking with townies is sketchy. It just gave me bad vibes. On February 24 2013 00:52 jaybrundage wrote: Oh and sorry GM. I just wanted to see if i could get the scum team. If it makes you feel better I wouldn't of looked if i had gotten it :D You almost triggered the GMarshal curse. I would have had to modkill you, and it would have all generally been unpleasant. There's no need, so don't do it. And the discussion on those two is closed, unless someone wants to take it up in PMs. I'm interested in seeing what people thought of the setup, how they would improve on it, and general thoughts about how both mafia and town played. Also, how do you guys feel about ObviousOne shadowing? Is it something we want to see more players doing in games (because I suspect it raises the game level even if its work for both player and shadow during the game.) | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
I think it would work better with a smaller game, ALTHOUGH scum did pretty well in this game I must say. Possibly some of the cycles were too long, activity died towards the middle and that was fairly depressing for me as a town player. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
02-13-2013 03:09 AM ET (US) jiexian wrote: obv its mrcc ve snarf and yam/phagga really? i have this idea in my head, mrcc busses snarf for town cred and to save VE (im positive VE is scum) and it's just the last guy im not sure of because I don't have a good meta on either yamato or phagga or prprplh O WAIT it must be ve mrcc prphl I see a trend. they didn't want to lynch me but they didnt bother stopping the wagon, voted for palmar but in general they have been quite spread out and never united in their decision. and VE with that random OMGUS on sloosh as an excuse not to vote for palmar. it fits a mafia game plan. don't take the blame for the mislynch, lynch palmar 3rd one's conditional: save VE, if ve's scum - (he most probably is) ,... and Lz comes in later to rebut everything I said with some contradictory logic hahahaha | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
but it came from Prom and not the QT........................ ._________. so unfair | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
On February 23 2013 16:45 JieXian wrote: I'm eating my hat atm, just so that you guys know : /.GJ YAMATO Well at that time djo was missing so I couldn't get a read on him ![[image loading]](http://www.helpfarm.com/blog/content/binary/fail_monkey_slap.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003274605/2644286016_simpsons_nelson_haha2_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg) | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Awesome carry work. Props to being open minded when I couldn't. You are the hero of this game. ![[image loading]](http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/applause.gif) | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 24 2013 01:40 GMarshal wrote: I'm interested in seeing what people thought of the setup, how they would improve on it, and general thoughts about how both mafia and town played. Also, how do you guys feel about ObviousOne shadowing? Is it something we want to see more players doing in games (because I suspect it raises the game level even if its work for both player and shadow during the game.) Like it has been said, time is a big factor in this game. A 72 hour period in which you cannot threaten scum with the lynch is incredibly difficult and demotivating, but scum players also have difficulty keeping up the illusion of contribution. I think shortening the cycles somewhat can help improve the overall playability of the game. The smaller player pool version will almost certainly need some shortening as you have even less people to talk about for a greater length of time (I feel like scum would suffer more in this setup). I think mafia played well with what they could. The Snarfs bus was from lack of communication but they did their best with it and had ultimately yamato died instead of me the last cycle, I think scum would easily have won it. The game does seem more town favored though as scum cannot resort to passive play due to the nominations being a pseudo town confirm device, where as town can play regular. Maybe in higher levels of play it would be more balanced, but it definitely seems inherently town favored for that reason (scum require more than town to push their agenda due to setup). For town play it is harder to gauge as I was out for a huge chunk of the first cycle, so thinks were done with reread, and I guess the gut feel isn't quite there as it is when things are in the process of unfolding. I wouldn't say there was really exceptional town play until the final stretch of the game. I pegged phagga and was consequently biased in everything, Palmar was sick so can't blame him, prplhz lost motivation which is understandable and everyone else I'm not too familiar with their play so I can't say. The Snarfs bus however was really a key play this game, as it made so many entangling lines and I know I couldn't think straight when Snarfs flipped scum - although that was a very pivotal moment as well. Had VE died, CC would fall and it would be back to basics scumhunting. It also shows that bussing for town cred cannot be an ends to itself, but only a means for further scum manipulation, otherwise the gain doesn't justify the costs. Shadowing is a cool concept if I understand it correctly, and I wish I could have had some mentor-esque relationship as I was learning. It can help newer players develop in insight and understanding which in turn naturally raises the overall level of gameplay on TL Mafia. However I'm not sure how the shadow affects the shadowed - I'm wondering if the types of questions could get the player to think different perspective. Basically having someone outside the game help you play (even though they might be perceived lower skill level). All in all, a pretty fun game, albeit very slow and prolonged. Also, I could easily see the addition of blue roles on the current setup to create new offshoot setups, currently I'm thinking of roles that revolve around how the nominations are made / interfered with. Could be closed setup, could be semi-open. I dunno. And a final thank you to the hosts GMarshal and BioSC for hosting this game! | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
We chatted through PMs and instant messenger. I was not observing in the observer QT. I was not reading in on the mafia QT. I started only knowing VE's alignment. Doing it this way actually works for shadowing in to either side unless I am mistaken. For the most part, going through the game I was reading as town and asking him questions that town-me was having as well as attempting to understand the general mood of the thread. Here's an early-game example: Original Message From VisceraEyes: inb4 someone says that having a shadow gave me an "unfair perspective advantage" LMAO Oops, not that one. Original Message From VisceraEyes: Those aren't the worst reads ever. They're not the best, but you're actually using things that matter rather than non-alignment-indicative stuff, which is always a plus. So you can see the kinds of insights I offered not knowing who was mafia, but what value they held to the mafia team is unknown precisely at least to me. Very intentional pun: Original Message From VisceraEyes: That's funny, cause that describe's Palmar's game perfectly regardless of alignment. He seems to play a solo game. Palmar plays with himself. Not a lot of golden quotable items, but the interaction is part of the process and I think that keeping the shadowing process as simple as mentor+student without QT/shared medium stuff forces the interaction between teacher and student while also enforcing a relatively strict input of outside information. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Because as scum, having a shadow point out what they see seems to offer insights to how the town perceives a situation. You are getting an objective viewpoint of a situation. Yea, you can say that you have already considered all viewpoints and that the shadow won't bring up anything new, which is why I'm wondering if it is a skill level thing, but for someone like me who has a poor scum game, this would be valuable information. Proper evaluation of how the self is perceived helps play - either scum or town; as scum because you can pre emptively address problem / issues, town because you can better gauge people's reactions / interactions with you. On the flip side, town get's insights by having another viewpoint. So I guess my final thoughts would be that shadows help the player in either alignment. I think that this is a good thing, and that is a separate point can be discussed, but I think that having a shadow is helpful to the player. I don't think it's an unfair advantage per se, unless a whole side gets shadows and another doesn't, but that's like rolling a setup that favors one side (a la Fruity where town player base was pretty strong I think?). ... I was going to talk about how to limit the influence a shadow has on a player rather than vice versa, but I think that would be losing out on something potentially really good for fear of something that is a relatively minor point. | ||
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
That probably goes without saying, but I wanted to say it anyway just because. And now that I've said it, I will say this. I had an unfair advantage in this game due to Obvious' observations. Not because I was picking his brain about things, but simply because Obvious had many observations about the gamestate. It's not his FAULT that I had an advantage, but because of the way I chose to disseminate the information I had to him over the course of the game, coupled with the fact that we both were so enthusiastic about the exercise, I was able to get a constant objective viewpoint on the gamestate. As slOosh keenly pointed out, this is useful information - not to an inexperienced scumplayer but to ANY scum player, or verily any player in general...because ultimately the game is supposed to be played objectively. But as scum I start the game with an informational advantage, and a persistent objective viewpoint is simply more powerful then a townie with presumably the same information his shadow would have. For this reason, I opted to actively take steps to try and lessen his impact on my perception of the game - by slowly feeding him the names of my team over the course of the game. In this way, his viewpoint over the course of the game slowly skewed to a more scum-like information-advantaged viewpoint. For instance, I think he guessed Cheese first early based on the posts he demonstrated and I was so impressed by how he came to the conclusion that I told him he was right. I also told him about Snarfs, but not until Cheese was already swinging the wagon around. My goal was to try and lessen his impact (being his objective viewpoint) on my play by removing his objectivity, but giving him room to improve his play not just as scum, but the game in general. I only say it was unfair because Obvious was so enthusiastic about the arrangement, which in turn caused me to be enthusiastic about it. I could tell he was excited to observe the gamestate and the prospect of improving his play immediately. Because I'm familiar with a few of my fellow players PM habits, I can say with confidence that the exercise of shadowing a player will vary from game to game and from player to mentor. In general however, it is my opinion that if newer players think that they have something to gain by shadowing another player during a game, provided the host doesn't care and the player willing, I say go for it. I had a lot of fun with the exercise and I think Obvious took a lot away from it, which was the goal, and I'm happy to have had a part in it. I apologize if it seems unfair or whatever, but like I said - for my part I tried to lessen its impact on my play in my own way, so I feel it's cool. I'm interested in others' opinion on this too though, because like I said, I think Obvious took a lot from it and for my part I think hosts should allow it in their games but also will respect hosts wishes who do not. Also LOL slOosh was the one who called me out on it. <3 | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
I wanted them to flip me green and then 10 minutes later flip me red with our concession. Would that not have been priceless?! | ||
yamato77
11589 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
I was a little salty that Acro didn't have me coach Obvious too, all things considered...but yeah Mocsta kinda gave me a nod in this thread and if there had been observant townie newbies reading, he basically outted himself as scum in that game in this thread. DON'T TALK ABOUT ONGOING GAMES MOCSTA <3 | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
It seemed like a pivotal moment day 3, to me. What was your decision making process there? | ||
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