EPTNomination Mafia - Page 112
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
That may be biased as I think I understood better what I was watching this time, and while I must thank the players, the setup.... Yeah it was hard for scum but I suspect it is always going to be nail bitingly close to LyLo for town. Although they have no present value, +10 Axle points to GM for bringing the set-up here. | ||
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Mr. Cheesecake
United States3756 Posts
On February 23 2013 12:41 AxleGreaser wrote: Well that was That may be biased as I think I understood better what I was watching this time, and while I must thank the players, the setup.... Yeah it was hard for scum but I suspect it is always going to be nail bitingly close to LyLo for town. Although they have no present value, +10 Axle points to GM for bringing the set-up here. Omg GM is a millionare, cash those things in bro. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
(already had this written, going to leave it as-is and just add my thoughts from PMs and chat log with VE as entry 2) I begin writing this during the second half of the second cycle, where the final post I have read is Mocsta addressing Palmar regarding his inactivity and citing the usefulness of the nomination mechanic in keeping very strong town players alive. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17761621) Time: 10:27 PM 2/9/2013 Prior to the start of the game, I asked GMarshal about shadowing a player as a resource to help me further grasp the tenets of this game. Noting that he had a game about to begin, I sent a message to VisceraEyes (and Bugs accidentally, sorry about that): any chance you're up? i would love to pick your brain about something if you're okay with that. essentially looking to shadow someone playing a mafia game. i have GMarshal's blessing to observe / interact with someone, and since he's running a game I figured it would be someone in his game. After getting confirmation from GMarshal (we don't want to break any rules here, guys!) I got to work asking various questions about the strategy VE would employ for the early phase of the game. The only role I knew from the start of the game was VE's so I was keeping my eye out for how he was dealing with interactions between himself and other players. What I learned from my early questions was something fairly obvious, but something newer players such as myself might not completely grasp: mafia players with the skill and ability to convincingly feign suspicion on their own teammates while not making them the focus of a conversation have a lot to gain for their win-con in the long game because they must already do the same thing to town players. In essence, by making sure there is some suspicion on their teammates when they die, the town cannot truly know which of the dead scum's suspects is town or scum because the interactions and explanations are there for players of both alignments. This also helps keep up appearances and leaves openings for mafia to participate in conversations to contribute "bits and pieces" without fully committing to a scum read on a player if they so choose. I was sort of frustrated with trying to get a read on Palmar, and expressed as much to VE: Original Message From VisceraEyes: That's funny, cause that describe's Palmar's game perfectly regardless of alignment. He seems to play a solo game. Palmar plays with himself.  Something that Mocsta ended up addressing by linking a video of Palmar doing a clean read of Hero Mini. I watched the video, and I was fascinated because its approach was something fundamentally different from my own. Palmar's approach is very intimate, on a post by post basis, whereas my own is holistic and heuristic given overall game structure and playthrough. This notepad style note-taking contrasts wholly with my spreadsheet approach to taking notes. The spreadsheet seems to be a nice utility because it lets me use color and tabulate data in an organized way, but the fact of the matter is that using a spreadsheet also limited the way I could add notes and narrate my decision-making in a way that would make sense down the road. Did it matter who voted for whom, how many times, on what basis? Those aren't really easy options to write down in cells on a spreadsheet, so the notepad style combined with some headings lets me read through my thought processes chronologically and (assuming those processes are correct) approach correct conclusions. So given that I've used a spreadsheet and my notes are imperfect, I thought back to interactions that occurred between VE and other players to try to draw some conclusions about their alignments. I pegged Mr. Cheesecake as mafia based on how little he pushed VE for a response to his request for the "to-do" list that VE has promised, a request that ended up taking about two real days to fulfill and seemed to appease. Meanwhile: On February 08 2013 03:17 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Can you point me in the direction of a case on Jay? How do you feel of him personally? He's been fairly elusive to me. Only thing he's done is call out Djo for obvious reasons from what I remember. Misdirection away from VE? If Mr. CC wants answers from VE and prplhz and Snarfs are also sniffing in his direction, why does this quote even occur? It was not necessary to quote prplhz in this question, but it serves to demonstrate that he's asking two players who are rather convinced that VE is scum to look in another direction. Scum CC derailing the train of thought or town CC more suspicious of Jay? Given I knew VE's alignment, that made CC scum in my book. Given the current state of the nominations, the vote looks like it will be between Palmar and slOosh. Mocsta demonstrated he wasn't afraid to be spotlighted AT ALL in his argument with Oats and continues to provide insights into some of the players in the game. Unfortunately for town, it looks like he and Yamato and probably Oats are all fairly comfortable with the idea that the two scum I am aware are are town. I'm confident all three nominees are town at this point in the game, but I'm not sure how this vote is going to go down today. Mostly the early parts of D2 have been quiet, perhaps 40-50 posts in the first half of the day portion this cycle, and it feels more like infighting between town. I feel like there is definitely some polarization happening as to what today's purpose should be. There also seems to be the problem of inactivity from at least half of the players. So with nothing fresh happening, and no real drive to find a town-chose lynch today, there may be some temporary feelings of defeatedness. Entry 2 So thinking back to what was going on, I really think this exchange summed up what was happening after the snarfs lynch: Original Message From VisceraEyes: (from 2/19) Yeah, that's about where we're at. I'm most leery of slOosh/Yamato at the moment, so you'll notice I took special time to discredit anything they say automatically by having them BOTH as my third scumread.  There were a lot of periods of time where very little action was happening in the game, part of it surely unintentional AFK-ness due to IRL circumstances, but also some of it can be attributed to the lack of a concrete town voice presence in the thread. I would say that Mr. CC held that position some of the time, but probably could have pushed his advantage a bit more with more activity. Going back this is what I saw that made me really love some Snickers Cheesecake: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17834820 Felt like if he really fleshed out the case on Phagga hard, balls-to-the-wall, huge prestige and a mindblowing turn at the end of his trick, it would have been the game-changer. Also ironic in hindsight, at least for me since I wasn't in either obs or scum QT, is his vote on Yamato and the subsequent votes from the rest of his team ON THE SAME PAGE!!! I just don't understand why VE wanted to keep Yamato around instead of slOosh at that point, given the things he told me regarding slOosh earlier in the game. Yamato asked to die! I think the biggest mind game of this Nomination mechanic is that town gets to choose which of their teammates dies. It's a bit of a psychological twist on the normal mechanics of the "bad guys" taking out townies at night and may have led to some of these feelings of defeat I felt were coming from the general town. That said, the mechanic is definitely interesting and I would love to see it played out again in a smaller game! | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
I was so confused after the snarfs lynch. But yeah yamato carried late game :D I got way too lazy and just stopped really doing anything important. I think the scum team got lazy too and thats how yamato managed to convince the rest of the town players. | ||
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Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
Will be a more intimate/team-oriented mafia next time. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
regarding the D2 dawn phase nomination period VE: He (sloosh) said he was pretty sure he'd be on the panel LAST NIGHT VE: LMAO VE: And we just let him WALK RIGHT INTO IT just made me laugh Me: OMG LOL this is gonna be fun when reading the game in retrospect "No, I don't have any strong scum reads and that's annoying because there are a lot of scum so some of them should be obvious already now (hopefully)." ~prp commentary on the early game [2/12/2013 1:21:12 PM] Me: Phagga and Oats are like a sleeper cell scum force in this game here | ||
yamato77
11589 Posts
So if I take the idea seriously that mafia bussed the fuck out of Snarfs, even early on, then I have to reconsider another player in this game besides just VE: Cheesecake Why? Because his claim to town is the same as VE's, but when you look at what happened day 3 with a fresh pair of eyes, you see just what Cheesecake was doing, and why he was doing it. Fuck all the nomination WIFOM. Fuck all the association bullshit. What is CC doing, and why is he doing it? First, I want to look at day 1, and go through a similar process as I did with VE. Who did CC want to lynch, and why? On February 08 2013 04:04 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Fuck it, YOLO ##vote: jiexian I dont see it going any other way. Everyone is yelling die scum die. Before this post, he had made a case on JX, but no vote went with it. He was talking about his read on Snarfs/Djo, with more emphasis on Djo. But aside from what he was writing, what was he doing? Not much. This post, however, is indicative of a mindset, and it is the exact same mindset I nailed VE with, and that is one of following town. CC, similarly to VE, didn't take any real stances with his vote or activity day 1. His vote he puts on JX amid town's push toward lynch him, and there it stayed. Why would he do this, if he's town? He talked about other reads, why isn't he making more of an effort to get them lynched? It's a mafia mentality. And I find it pervasive throughout his filter. On February 08 2013 04:25 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Indeed it is. We're lynching JX today with anyway with or without my vote . Who the heck are you gonna vote prphlz? Here he admits to looking scummy after prplhz attacks him for that vote post. Since when does town CC do this at all? No, as he said before, town CC is much more likely to start arguing with someone when accused, even if he's wrong. But mafia CC? He's just trying to blend into the townies who want to lynch JX, so he won't create any waves. He does this again, day 3 when someone calls him mafia for a good reason: On February 13 2013 01:51 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: ^ Nah Oats, I'm the scummy dude here trying to derail this VE lynch and switching my meta based read on Yamato like a boss. Choo choo! That's about all he did of note Day 1. Most of it was general talk about his reads, etc, but note where his vote was and where it stayed, and how little time he spent justifying that read, as opposed to how much time he spent talking about other reads. On February 12 2013 01:40 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Yamato Because Jay said that Palmar said so I haven't really given a serious look at Yamato until today. I initially wrote him off, because he was the towniest Yamato I've ever seen. In our history, he was always flaming with bias and emotionally posting. He drove the JX lynch home, but it was more lazy posting instead of emotional. This game he is more level-headed, and I just kinda threw a 'leaning town' stamp on him and let it be. Palmar apparently was going for something with Yamato, and Jay just reiterated it. I still think it is bad how Jay went after Yamato like that, but I have to consider that maybe he / Palmar are right. I'm filter diving and coming to my own conclusions on Yamato. On Jay's points: Yamato's flip-flop on Mocsta From Jay's case, I found it hard to get the grip on this point (he was basically summarizing). The first two pages on his filter are anti-Mocsta and then suddenly out of nowhere is: His Mocsta alignment case wasn't getting any traction, so he switches base. This IS a bit odd. Especially for Yamato. The Yamato I know was always ridden with tunneling and never let up. Conceding his position is, from what I'd consider, unlikely for town Yamato. Also, this is bad reasoning for a town Mocsta from him: Both alignments respond to cases. A matter of effort is not alignment indicative. JX Vote Where was JX before in Yamato's thinking? I completely missed this tbh. Not much to say about it other than lolwut. List post: Lists are scummy brah. I have no idea why he thinks I'm town: We've barely even talked. I think our interactions are null at this stage? I don't recall him taking a look at me. Why is he writing me off as town? I'm less concerned about his scumreads, because those conclusions can come from either alignment. I just don't know why certain people have earned the Yamato green stamp of approval. Prphlz town read: Mainly a meta case and two quotes saying that he's pro town. Why doesn't Yamato think he can be mafia faking this sentiment? Eeerrrr it's such an easy thing to just slap this town label on someone and never rethink it. The only time I played scum was with Debears, and he did this stuff to me all the time. Beefed up my townie image by defending me and saying I was pro-town because 'insert midly townish post here'. It may be the same case here. Yamato Today Even if Snarfs fits that bill, this is a shitty reason to be voting people alone. I don't agree that we should be looking mainly at activity from the nomination lynch. It's like a cop-out on forming decent reads... Also, he just calls me blendy and null reads me when I ask him to look into me. Seriously, I give him a GOLDEN opportunity to get some information about me, which I will respond to. He just null reads like a boss. Why doesn't he want to snuggle up with me and get to know each other? Town Yamato loves to interact / cuddle with me. Scum Yamato is afraid because he knows I'll call him out on his BS. I'd consider lynching Yamato today. My gut tells me to go all wagon of justice lynch Snarfs mode. Unfortunately he's another fucking lurker right now. I need to hear more than 'Oh I'm going to be doing family things! Lynch VE bro's, here are some scummers that are a good choice. Luckily I have alllll day to question him. That is, if he'll respond. @Snarfs Hey Snarfs, Snarfypoo. Can I call you Snarfypoo? You know, you're playing this Mafia game right now and it would be really cool if you did things. Two things: Why shouldn't I lynch you right now? and Top scumreads, minus VE. I know your stance on him. Give reasoning. Be cool and awesome like that. This is fucking mafia posting here folks. Earlier in the game, and even early in day 3, CC had said that I looked town, "the towniest" Yamato ever, he said. So how did that suddenly become scummy? It's bullshit, that's how. Town built up a good wagon on me and CC decided he'd set himself up to vote me, despite the fact that he'd been arguing over the SAME READ that jay had just a few posts in his filter before this one. It's absurd how much this guy just wants to blend into town. On February 12 2013 02:59 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Nope, lazy. First quote: What's wrong with what VE did there? He expresses he wants to talk with nomination candidates about the lynch tomorrow (and today). Is that a mafia agenda? What is odd is that he disagrees with Phagga, but provides no reasoning. That actually brings up a good point. Why DOES he disagree... he has never explained it. I want to know this. Second quote: The joke was a joke... indicative by the heart at the end. Ehh. Seemed pretty light-hearted to me. But that Phagga stuff again. Prove he's not lynch-worthy VE. Third quote: You focus on VE being a good player, but he's not showing that here. I've never played with VE before, so I can't testify to his epicness. I've never even heard of him being that good. The only thing that redeems him is he did take a look at Prphlz who was not a lynch candidate. He did focus a lot on the nomination lynch... Final quote: His job as town is to prove the innocence of Phagga if he thinks he is innocent. He doesn't do this. Good point. VE seems really trolly / nonchalant overall. His filter lacks scumreads and is more joking around than anything. Pushing a mafia agenda? It's iffy. Mafia motivation comes in defending Phagga without reason. The little participation go either way. At least he did push Prphlz. Stuff not related to you SlOosh: VE said he was going to look into me but never did. Then, he just coped out and said 'oh no, im not interested in lynching you, you're good don't worry about it' <---- I fucking hate when people null me like that. He doesn't seem to really care about what other people think about him. Kinda a townie trait to me; at least that's how I'm as town. He's not overly concerned with defending himself which I this is townie as well. So VE: Why do you disagree with a Phagga lynch? More specifically why did you WAIT until today to talk about it. Palmar was right there to discuss. In fact, why did you want to lynch the guy who was so anti-Phagga? Wouldn't you want to discuss it with him? Overall: I'm a bit see-sawy on him. All flip-floppy and such. I like some things, but hate that he voted for SlOosh when he disagreed with his Phagga case without disputing it. We'll see with what he comes out with today. Here is another theme I want to point out in CC's filter. and the only hard stance he's taken this whole game: Snarfs vs. VE. If these are two mafia players, as I suspect, then CC has only ever cared to make sure one got lynched over the other. Why? I can't say for sure, but it's very odd, and there are many posts in his filter from day 3 talking about lynching Snarfs over lynching VE. He argues VE's towniness a few times, On February 13 2013 07:29 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Snarfs is by far the better lynch today -.- This VE thing reeks of scum and came about so quickly. "VE has done alot of scummy things" "He is being soft defended" Nice reasons. Now lynch snarfs plz. He is indisputably scum. More proof of the phenomena I want to point out. On February 13 2013 07:42 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Just lynch Snarfs. I'll give my left nut if he flips town. If he does, you guys can systematically lynch VE and myself the following non-nomination days and win the game. Seriously, holy shit. This is an interesting idea, no? It's a pretty safe bet that Snarfs will flip mafia if he's your scumbuddy, no? It also strengthens the association I want to build between CC and VE, which is more obvious to me now than then. On February 13 2013 07:47 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: SlOosh, thanks for being open. Look at the VE wagon - how many scummy people are on it? Why won't the entire scum team be on the Snarfs wagon to push this mislynch? It makes no sense. Scum are on this VE wagon, which was initially propelled by you, and are sheeping the crap out of it. On February 13 2013 07:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: If you're town and on the VE wagon, I suggest switching over right the hell now. There is no way Snarfs flips town. If he does, well, I guess town has easy scum lynches ahead of them don't they? You lynch VE, he flips town, and town is left with deciding who is scum amongst everyone on the VE wagon. You lynch Snarfs, he flips town, town knows exactly who to lynch. If VE flips town we are absolutely fucked. Snarfs will flip red, and Gee-fucking-gee man. More examples and evidence of the mindsets he is guilty of that day. What I am coming to is this: When did CC start TRULY pushing for Snarf's lynch? After the wagon on me died and Sloosh made his move to kill VE. Why? Before that point, he was perfectly happy to listen to players he DIDN'T think were town call ME mafia, even though he thought I looked townie. But now he's so against lynching VE, who is being pushed by Sloosh? It doesn't make any sense. He never really offers up any strong analysis of why VE is town, he simply calls the wagon on him "scummy" and yells at us to lynch Snarfs. The Snarfs lynch was designed by mafia to give VE town cred and strengthen people's reads on CC. Before it became apparent that VE was going to die if mafia did nothing to stop it, CC was content with me being the vote leader, and he did nothing to push his case on Snarfs despite his vote sitting on him. On February 13 2013 07:11 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: been voting snarfs all day. /thread. Jay just bus your scumbuddy Snarfs already. He's obviously thought about what it means to have his vote on Snarfs in this manner, and left it there intentionally, even though the push to lynch him didn't come until late in the day. But the most damning thing to me today is how resistant he is to the idea of VE being mafia. Why is it so hard for him to see it? I don't quite understand. Obviously this relies on VE actually being mafia, but as I've said today, I'm fairly certain. While bits and pieces of this case are associations with VE, what the important thing to note here is how he played day 1, and what he was going to do day 3 had VE not become the focus. Today, we'll see what CC has in store for us. Right now, I'm apt to believe he's actually the second of the three mafia we've been looking for this game. The scum team proposed yesterday, and the one I talked about today, no longer applies. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
I think I understand this better than your VE case but still, like I feel that there is no flow. Not that the case is bad or anything, I just cant follow it. :/ | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
Sloosh got the gist of my VE case in three points, here: On February 20 2013 16:47 slOosh wrote: Finished rereading. I fully endorse this position and will be willing to vote into any one of these 3 players. So town team of me, CC, yamato, Oats & jay - so at this point it's just convincing you guys that we are town and have to consolidate on them. If me flipping town today helps Oats see better, than I'm fine with that. Oats: I'm going to do this two ways. One is why I'm probably town, and one is why VE is probably scum. D1: I am voted with Mocsta and Palmar. Mocsta is pretty much established town. Palmar has a great reputation as a town player. Why would I put myself up as scum? How could I have known that Palmar would be sick all day? Because if Palmar chose to start contributing, then I would surely be dead. With yamato's case, the issue at hand is that VE is claiming that he is town because of his pushing Snarfs, when in reality, he wasn't really pushing Snarfs, but just pretending to do so. That is what yamato is pointing out. Pushing town over scum isn't the point - pushing town over scum while claiming to be pushing the scum the whole time as justification of his towniness is the issue. If you consequently observe VE's filter, there are 3 things that categorize his play. 1) Setup talk, which is an easy way for scum to look like they are contributing 2) Focus on lurkers, which is an easy way for scum to look like they are contributing 3) Hunting the "least useful" townie on even days, which is an easy way for scum to look like they are contributing When does VE try to push a scum lynch? You may think Snarfs, but as yamato shows, he really doesn't. VE has been pushing lurkers and least useful townies and that is all that he is interested in. He isn't truly scumhunting. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
I think I was too stuck on slOosh being scum, and that twisted my reads somewhat. I be dumb  | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
Namely do it in a Jay is scum because 1) H'es scum 2) I couldn't get him mislynched 3) He's a maverick introduction. then, section the body of the cases by the 1, 2, and 3 in bold and underline | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On February 23 2013 14:11 debears wrote: Yamato, you need to make your basic points headlined in the beginnning, with the most important points first. Namely do it in a Jay is scum because 1) H'es scum 2) I couldn't get him mislynched 3) He's a maverick introduction. then, section the body of the cases by the 1, 2, and 3 in bold and underline Lol why? I'm sure I've seen people do that before, but not very often. Build a case however you want to build a case, IMO. The formatting is not important. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
02-17-2013 02:15 AM ET (US) JieXian wrote: i havent been keeping up with the thread but as i stated earlier, it was snarfs mrcc VE and prlprl lz i disagree and I'll get to call you names post-game ok :D oh ya give me your scumlist lz and have it on record Well at that time djo was missing so I couldn't get a read on him 02-17-2013 02:15 AM ET (US) Lazermonkey wrote: That's a deal jiexian, u scrubnub : D. Hey, JX! wassup with your reads? Are they unchanged? 1. Phagga 2. Prp 3. Debears/Jay. Leaning Jay atm tho. VE cooould possibly be scum but not likely imo. Everyone else I'm quite sure is town. Mocsta, your play was good. Only a crazy person would've thought you were scum. But I think your reads were kinda off I felt. Tho I guess we will find out in some time : ). And debears is playing quite well also and he is one of the few making any sort if sense atm. ![[image loading]](http://www.helpfarm.com/blog/content/binary/fail_monkey_slap.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003274605/2644286016_simpsons_nelson_haha2_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg) | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On February 23 2013 11:37 VisceraEyes wrote: On that note we need more Resistance games too. Maybe I host one of those shits. I'll cohost whatever that is. I can count better than Kadaver. | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
GG all! And thanks for Hosting, GM. Any comment on my play would be appreciated. | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
Don't post image macros in my threads please ^_^ | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On February 23 2013 11:38 GMarshal wrote: Oh, two comments. Jay, if you ever pull a stunt like trying to ask my cohost for the scum qt in one of my games again, I will modkill you so fast you won't know what hit you. If he had given it to you I would have ensured you regretted it. Its not funny, and I was not amused. Promethelax, if you know who the scumteam is (and they shouldn't have told you), keep it to yourself. Do not accept pms from townies if you know, and don't spread it around. That is how games end up unintentionally ruined. I was displeased by this. Not that you broke any rules, but its a matter of etiquette, and caution. That's all! Carry on! My apologies. I don't feel I overstepped any bounds since all of my advice was in the form of obnoxious questions and not a out alignments "oh you think X is town/scum? Why do you think that? You should be able to prove your reads" or similar. It was never my intention to do anything to affect the game. If you feel my actions were un kosher I'm very willing to take a one game ban or a warning for them. | ||
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