EPTNormal Mini Mafia IV - Page 118
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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iamperfection
United States9644 Posts
On February 05 2013 05:18 JieXian wrote: =( reading what you all say I feel robbed of my time the setup is not why you lost. Thrawn and yamto didn't do anything and your last 7 pages of filter was nonsense really. | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 05 2013 05:08 VisceraEyes wrote: He would have. actually considered it n1 and went "naaaaaah, there's no way I'm going to get shot tonight" | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
Thx for hostiles. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On February 05 2013 05:21 iamperfection wrote: the setup is not why you lost. Thrawn and yamto didn't do anything and your last 7 pages of filter was nonsense really. while this is true, the setup certainly didn't help. scum didn't do anything. They paid for it. | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 05 2013 05:25 VisceraEyes wrote: People like shooting you to shut you up Toad. <3 Thx for hostiles. though it's something that only started recently out of laziness, posting the sheet that is. Just way too much trouble to explain everything with sentences and shit. Rather just copy & past a "kill these guys" picture. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
getting at least 2V or at least 2 M: 8.8% in order to get two vigis in my setup you need 4Vs, so probability of 4Vs (ignoring more than that, since it's so negligible): ~0.019% 54.7% of setups have 3 or 4 Ts 1.56% of setups have 0 or 7 Ts | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
Toad and I were talking about how town favoured the mafia scum set-ups seem to TL players. Do you think that is because level of town play is higher on TL or scum lower? As someone who never played on mafiascum I'm curious how their towns and scum teams rate against ours. Do set-ups need to be balanced for the forum they are on or is there some magic balance which will be good no matter the players? | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 05 2013 06:10 Promethelax wrote: That seems...more balanced than the regular C9++ Toad and I were talking about how town favoured the mafia scum set-ups seem to TL players. Do you think that is because level of town play is higher on TL or scum lower? As someone who never played on mafiascum I'm curious how their towns and scum teams rate against ours. Do set-ups need to be balanced for the forum they are on or is there some magic balance which will be good no matter the players? I guess it's because people know each other fairly well on TL. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On February 05 2013 06:10 Promethelax wrote: That seems...more balanced than the regular C9++ Toad and I were talking about how town favoured the mafia scum set-ups seem to TL players. Do you think that is because level of town play is higher on TL or scum lower? As someone who never played on mafiascum I'm curious how their towns and scum teams rate against ours. Do set-ups need to be balanced for the forum they are on or is there some magic balance which will be good no matter the players? YES. they need to be tailored specifically for TL if you get anything from mafiascum, because TL town play is much better than mafiascum. I ran an "experiment" where I sent the same setup to multiple people. This included GM, Foolishness, Zona, Ace, among others. This was probably a little less than a year ago, around when I started thinking of an idea to generate setups like these. The setup I proposed I think was a slight tweak of some random mafiascum C9++ roll, but not much, but did not tell them where I got it or how. (I should have PM logs somewhere but I'm not arsed to find them) They almost all universally agreed that it was town favored (though to varying degrees). So I kept talking to all of them and discussing with them why they thought TL towns were stronger etc. (this was back when I had no idea really how games were balanced). Foolishness in particular explained the importance of considering worst case scenarios. In the worst case scenario in this game for scum, they lose n1: scum RB gets lynched d1 both vigis shoot correctly n1 (and scum have no ability to stop this) This was actually VERY close to happening. One of the vigis shot n1 and he missed, but if both shot n1 and they both hit, the game would have been over in less than 72 hours. This type of situation needs to be INCREDIBLY rare. The fact is that if Toad ran a 5% vig roll and made 2Vs two one shots, then the chance of this roll happening is 4.4%. That's way too high. In my setup it's less than 0.02% as I already explained. Sure, if there's an SK and a vig in the game it's possible that this happens too but there are two things that make this OK: one, the game doesn't end if there's an SK and vig and they both shoot scum n1 (and scum got lynched d1) two, the SK probably fucked up by shooting a scum, whereas if you have 2 vigis who shot scum they did nothing wrong. Not a big deal in the SK case. Secondly, I included and tweaked a lot of the roll possibilities, roles, and mafia/SK setups because balancing a 13p game with an SK and vigis is fucking hard. Inclusion of extra KP causes a lot of variation, and it's hard to balance a game if there's a lot of variation. Thus you need to minimize variation as much as possible to balance, without compromising the setup. To do that you basically have to nerf vigis. A workaround is to create lots of misdirection but a lot of those techniques are a bit weird, as I've discovered through experimentation. (e.g. if you make rolling an RB 15% then you create a fuckton of setups with like 3 or 4 people who are capable of roleblocking; makes fake claiming by scum easier and it can confuse town but it creates some problems with RB priority and other stuff that's really annoying to deal with) Ace in particular was quite helpful with regard to scum balance in the C9++ rolls I use. JKs are imperative because it prevents follow the cop (as do roleblockers) and promotes scum fakeclaims. Medics are simply, IMO, too powerful in such a small setup without some sort of balancing factor. Multiple use cops can also get sort of hairy; I toyed with making multiple use cops parity cops instead and I've had mixed thoughts on this. I think that might nerf town too hard but I really do think it's something that should be considered. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
/hipster | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On February 05 2013 06:26 VisceraEyes wrote: Moral of the story: Bugs needs to run more mini normals. brooo I've been busy playing :p I'm glad you like my setups though, really appreciate it. btw if anyone is confused as to how I got those percentages, don't fret, I didn't pull them out of my ass. For the vigis: If you assume a 5% chance to roll a V, then to calculate the % chance of there being at least 2Vs: There are 7 letters. Chance of rolling 0 Vs = (95/100) ^ 7 Chance of rolling 1 V = 7 * 5/100 * (95/100) ^ 6 ==> Chance of rolling 2Vs = 1 - chance of rolling 0 - chance of rolling 1 == 4.4% | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
I haven't seen medics>JKs in a game in forever. Kind of like how I never see innocent children on TL(except once, when sloosh was IC. Maybe iGrok's good clean old fashioned mini mafia?). I like JK much better because, as you say, follow the cop is broken (and very boring). I also like that scum can fake claim miller, as marv did here. Much more interesting than IC which is just a wasted kp. Bugs aren't you running the upcoming 16p mini? I like your move away from c9++, too many randoms (myself included) understand the set-up fully and try to break it instead of trying to find scum. I personally plan to never use c9++ ever again simply because it is too easy to solve. I like the semi-open nature and wide range of possibilities but I think I'll tailor make my own set-ups to avoid the dangers of a c9 savvy town beating the set-up instead of the scum team. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
However I've never run into a setup-breaking problem when I run c9++ because I never publicized the RNG I use :p I gave it to marv I believe but he only used it once (and I changed it since then too) The last C9++ I ran, the town tried to break the setup and failed horribly IIRC. They wasted tons of time and lost. | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On February 05 2013 06:51 wherebugsgo wrote: yeah I am running the upcoming mini. However I've never run into a setup-breaking problem when I run c9++ because I never publicized the RNG I use :p I gave it to marv I believe but he only used it once (and I changed it since then too) The last C9++ I ran, the town tried to break the setup and failed horribly IIRC. They wasted tons of time and lost. I remember... | ||
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