EPTAnd why would I believe VE when the person he's getting the information from is the 3rd party - who didn't get any confirmation on how his role worked anyway?
2013 Mafia Awards - Page 7
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
And why would I believe VE when the person he's getting the information from is the 3rd party - who didn't get any confirmation on how his role worked anyway? | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 02 2013 09:43 strongandbig wrote: You just played in it. This is the first TL game in over a year with a third party recruiter. It's not a role that is used here. And now we know why. Maybe you should read some games on mafiascum to see how recruiters actually work. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On April 02 2013 09:41 Ace wrote: eh? We've allowed people to deny being recruited to 3rd parties? In a closed set up? Link me to that game. If we've allowed that to happen that is extremely bad for obvious reasons. And why would I believe VE when the person he's getting the information from is the 3rd party - who didn't get any confirmation on how his role worked anyway? The only "recruiter game" I can recall where it was in any way fucked up was callers three kingdom one where the non recruited people "ganged up" and did a neutral win. All games I have ever seen forced whoever was recruited by third party to be recruited and thus was third party. From what I am gathering is that VE claimed someone attempted to recruit him and Ace tried to get him lynched for being third party as there was no way VE could deny being recruited? If thats the case I can clearly say I would have pushed a lynch on VE as well -_- | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 02 2013 09:52 strongandbig wrote: Nah a better analogy is to speculating over whether cops can be insane or paranoid. I don't agree. We all know Cops can come with sanities. That is expected and outside of games hosted by Caller won't break anything. Recruiters can't be denied recruiting Townies outside of special roles and/or Scum. That is essentially breaking the game when you allow it and the role. Cops usually don't do that. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 02 2013 09:54 strongandbig wrote: Why is punishing players for making unfounded assumptions about a closed setup a bad thing? Let's say we're in a game and I pop up Day 2 and claim Vigilante. You say "ok Ace I don't believe you, you've gotta prove it. Shoot BloodyCobbler tonight". Day 3 I show up and say I've got an innocent result on BC. You call me a liar. You lynch me and I flip vigilante that can investigate a player. The way Vigilantes actually work don't match the action of the role in any way. You can't punish players for expecting behavior of roles - especially in a closed setup that is called Normal.  | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On April 02 2013 09:54 strongandbig wrote: Why is punishing players for making unfounded assumptions about a closed setup a bad thing? how is it unfounded? If player x claims he is cop/medic/recruiter/whatever And his claim doesn't match what the power of that role should be. Then you lynch the fucker. If I claim Cop but the guy I target dies im bullshitting If i claim medic and the guy I protect gets roleblocked im bullshitting If i claim recruiter and the guys I target don't get recruited I am bullshitting Obviously in this case the guy being recruited said he could deny it but my first instinct given any knowledge of the role (I also like checking previous games / mafiascum to get an idea how a role i have never seen should work) then you lynch him barring some insane circumstance. And before you say I wouldn't get lynched for it. I recall playing a game where I called out mattchew for claiming self aware miller in a normal setup and until mods came out and confirmed no millers were self aware I was just as likely or more likely to get lynched than he was. Using setup or role knowledge to push lynches is sensible and if the person can give a solid reason (or you are playing a heavy theme game from hosts like caller) then the guy gets lynched. | ||
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
13 player game. 11 recruiters 1 SK 1 busdriver. LET THE GAMES BEGIN | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
And then the busdriver busses them both? | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On April 02 2013 10:07 wherebugsgo wrote: what happens if two recruiters recruit each other? And then the busdriver busses them both? The world explodes. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On April 02 2013 09:42 strongandbig wrote: Basically what I'm saying here is, there was quite a lot of evidence that your assumption was wrong, but instead of considering it in the game you pushed for a VE lynch and got lynche yourself because of it. And even after that happened, you're not willing to consider that your setup speculation might have been wrong. Despite the fact that it was. It's kind of entertaining. That's all I'm saying. there was no evidence for it btw. I would strongly suggest not making these claims unless you've read/played the game yourself. If you have, then I apologize, but you are just wrong. The summary of the situation is this: VE gets masoned by 3P VE declines the recruit by leaving the QT but tells the 3P that he accepts. VE posts these logs in the thread and tells the town that he is still town. So, he tells town that he is still town, but he told the 3P that he accepted the recruit, and the evidence is in the thread for everyone to see. Confirmed liar. Town should ordinarily kill him on the spot, since by the evidence in the thread it would appear that he was recruited. The only thing that says otherwise is VE's word, which clearly cannot be trusted. e: also Ace ended up getting lynched because town was full of sheep and lack of rational and cohesive thought. The simple fact is that neither VE nor Ace should ever have been lynched, but based on what happened in the thread, it would be completely justified for a VE lynch to happen. VE fucked up, he should have been punished for it. I think perhaps based on his reputation, VE is known to do these kinds of things, and so he got a slip. However, if a townie known to act rationally/be good at scum had done this, they would have instantly been lynched. VE (IMO) got a pass because sometimes his play is somewhat irrational. The Ace lynch was simply a classic example of a townie getting mislynched for saying controversial things, and there being no defense either on his part or on the part of others. That can be attributed to Ace not having enough time to deal with a very overactive day 2, and town not being able to see the game from his perspective. Add to that a bit of scum encouragement and you can see why he was mislynched. I do not think that Ace did anything wrong in this situation. | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
Incidentally, marvel said something about how as an actual third party VE would have removed the part where he accepted? Two explanations: he either just forgot to remove it or he intentionally left it in because he thought he could twist it around/nobody would care (I forget the name but there was some all-smurf game where mafia instead of having a normal night kill assumed the identity of the dead person and in that game after losing his only partner day 1, VE intentionally slipped and acted like his original self and said post-game that he thought he could use it as a trap). | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On April 02 2013 10:22 HiroPro wrote: I followed the game up until the point that Ace got lynched, and I would have voted for Viscera. Incidentally, marvel said something about how as an actual third party VE would have removed the part where he accepted? Two explanations: he either just forgot to remove it or he intentionally left it in because he thought he could twist it around (I forget the name but there was some all-smurf game where mafia instead of having a normal night kill assumed the identity of the dead person and in that game after losing his only partner day 1, VE intentionally slipped and acted like his original self and said post-game that he thought he could use it as a trap). right, and I think this is important: the situation is indistinguishable from a situation in which VE actually has accepted. There is literally nothing there that would be different. He accepts, becomes third party, comes back to the thread and tells the town, hey yo, I'm town but I got masoned by this third party recruiter guy. Still town. Had he removed the part about "I accept" or even replaced it with "I decline your offer" then town might even keep him alive because "oh it's unlikely he faked those logs" or whatever reason they can come up with. So the argument "well why wouldn't he as third party simply choose not to mention the mason" doesn't hold much water, when it could be argued that actually mentioning it (and lying) has the potential to make him super-likely town in the eyes of many townies. Essentially what I'm saying is that you can do what I did in SS mafia. As it was a PM game, about five seconds into the game I messaged sandroba on skype (I was scum, he was town) and fakeclaimed to him within a few minutes of talking to him. Most of you will say "but scum would never take that risk!" and that's exactly what I was counting on sandroba to do. Thankfully, he did exactly that, and considered me very townie until he confirmed basically everyone through roles, and decided to check me just to be safe. The argument "but scum would never take that risk" seems great until you get a scum who is actually willing to take that risk. VE is definitely one of those players with the balls to do something like that. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
Lynch all liars cannot apply in a game with a cult recruiter. Imagine a scenario where the cultist recruits the strongest townie in the thread, the recruited player starts spewing nonsense and lies and the town lynches the recruited player. Rinse and repeat. Town is going to get nowhere fast if this cycle continues. If the town felt that VE was mafia or the cult leader, then a VE lynch is fine. If town felt VE was a recruited third party, then a VE lynch is far less ideal. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
The inconfirmability of whether VE actually was recruited or not neuters his outing as an alignment indicative action. Especially so since VE is a player who could be comfortable doing that. FWIW, I honestly thought VE was scum up until I masoned him, and had I not been the 3rd party I probably would have pushed him as others did this game. | ||
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