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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On December 29 2012 04:55 DoYouHas wrote:
Agreed MrCc. With the exceptions of Hapa, DP, Thrawn, and maybe MrZ, this game should be looked back on as a cautionary tale. Trying to justify bad play after the fact isn't helping anyone to learn from their mistakes.
This game is a super interesting one. I started following properly when Hapa started making his plans, and I've just read through the endgame and I'm not sure what I think.
It seems there were mistakes on both sides, and brilliance (however intentional) of djo vs kush (i only just found out this happened). Which in a strict "normal" mafia way, judging by the comments alone post-game, would have pretty damn likely led to a mafia victory. So in the end setup considerations turned a mafia victory into a town victory. Although mafia can have no excuses if they forgot to shoot.
Overall I think the concept was brilliant, and maybe with a little tweak or so it would be one of the best themed games going. Well done djo/kush for distancing, and a big well done to Hapa for pulling everything together when town needed him to. Sometimes setups can be gamed, but it needs someone to step up to the plate and do it.
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On December 29 2012 04:55 DoYouHas wrote:
Agreed MrCc. With the exceptions of Hapa, DP, Thrawn, and maybe MrZ, this game should be looked back on as a cautionary tale. Trying to justify bad play after the fact isn't helping anyone to learn from their mistakes.
what bad play is being justified?
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Mainly JX, trying to justify his vote decision and his absurd suspicion of Hapa.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
JX as town sabotaging the town-led plan is almost unforgiveable, really. Lucky boy that he got away with it
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On December 28 2012 23:43 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 23:27 Djodref wrote:On December 28 2012 19:58 kushm4sta wrote:
godammit thinking about missing that nk rages me. thanks for completely failing to give a shit djodref.
I had to work overnight the night before so my sense of time was all messed up that is my excuse.
DJO did you know that when you die that doesn't mean you lose???
selfish arrogant bad scumplay from djo i am mad.
You were playing like a selfish retard all game... no? 1 i tried to save DYH and would have saved him if people were actually in the thread 2 i did save you fact of mafia: scum must bust unless town is a total failure. you have way too much ego
Dear Kush,
You are more obsessed with the Looney Game than I do. You shouldn't care of how scummy you look because you are getting a lot of leeway because of your town play.
1) You shouldn't have gave Cheese a town read. He was the only contender to DYH lynch and we should have pushed his mislynch D2. The following LYLO at D3 with the 3 of us would have been a piece of cake.
2) There is no problem with taking some distance, but don't bus if you don't need to.
3) Learn to send night actions.
4) Try to be right on your town games, not on your scum games
Best Regards,
Djodref
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
So in terms of setup changes here's what I'm thinking:
1) there is no mechanic for town to not cast a witchcraft vote: you must always vote for someone. This will prevent most of the shennannies with using witchcraft as a rolecheck
2) possibly change the scum setup from gf + goon + 2-shot blue vigi to gf + 1-shot blue vigi + 1-shot blue vigi. This seems a bit more stable.
Any thoughts on these changes, or suggestions for further tweaks?
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On December 29 2012 07:54 Blazinghand wrote:
So in terms of setup changes here's what I'm thinking:
1) there is no mechanic for town to not cast a witchcraft vote: you must always vote for someone. This will prevent most of the shennannies with using witchcraft as a rolecheck
2) possibly change the scum setup from gf + goon + 2-shot blue vigi to gf + 1-shot blue vigi + 1-shot blue vigi. This seems a bit more stable.
Any thoughts on these changes, or suggestions for further tweaks?
I need to think how town could abuse the vote mechanics in this situation. But I like these changes for now.
Especially the fact that mafia has two witch hunters.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
I think that even with hapa's system scum had a strong chance of win. There was some bad luck in getting RBed, then not sending in an NK, that caused the loss-- but kush was in a very good position to not lose.
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So if I may offer some of my own thoughts on the game:
Mafia Play
The Djo/Kush situation should illustrate just how potentially devastating independently minded scumplayers can be. The bus was very convincing and quite a nice play (even if somewhat "unintentional").
Unfortunately, I think it was too extreme, and a bit too fancy for the situation. For one, scum were screwed if Djo actually ended up getting lynched on Day 3. Secondly, fancy play was just not needed given this roster of players. Such busses are great for throwing off a star-studded roster of veteran townies, and not a relatively inexperienced lineup. If scum just killed me off early, mafia could have probably pushed mislynches without much effort. Good scum-play isn't always fancy, and the simplest/straightforward plays are often effective and best.
Regarding my Play
Ugh. Well I'm still pretty angry about how I played this game, but it was educational in a way. I was looking for excuses to think people were town rather than finding scum. In addition, I pretty much lynched Eywa because I was pissed at him rather than actually thinking he was scum.
Anyway, as far as personal "lessons" go for future iterations of "town-Hapa"
1) Stop spamming outside of Day 1.
2) Stop defending other players if I'm not 99% sure they're town.
3) Do not talk to idiot townies (or just give less of a shit).
The Setup
The setup was quite ingenious, and I think preventing voting-abstentions will fix a lot of the "using votes as DT checks" problem. There will be situations where you can use the voting system to confirm a townie, but it'll be much more situational (and require far more town coordination).
Overall, I thought scum played the better game, and scum could have won if not for some excessively fancy play and forgetting the N4 NK. Town scrapped it's way out through setup abuse, which I don't mind, but leaves me with a sour taste. Though those are the games you learn from the most.
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Oh also, I thought the DT check system should be re-balanced. There's very little incentive for the town to use Blaspheme over Scrying in most phases of the game. I think Blaspheme should give accurate checks when checking millers. It gives a bit more balance to the power-relationship of the two.
So basically Scrying is the default check, and Blaspheme is the "proof-read" check.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On December 29 2012 08:02 Hapahauli wrote:
Oh also, I thought the DT check system should be re-balanced. There's very little incentive for the town to use Blaspheme over Scrying in most phases of the game. I think Blaspheme should give accurate checks when checking millers. It gives a bit more balance to the power-relationship of the two.
So basically Scrying is the default check, and Blaspheme is the "proof-read" check.
This sounds like a good change to me-- hopefully it will promote Blasphene getting used.
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@ Blazinghand
I think you should keep the possibility for the town to vote for ”nobody” but not for ”no-one”
I recommend you to threaten to count all invalid votes as votes for ”nobody” to force town players to vote.
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As a last bit, I'm worried that the witch-hunter is a bit too powerful of an individual role. For example, lynching the WH on Day 1 is certain death for scum. I like the effect, but it's just too much power in the hands of one person. I think you should devise a way to split it up between multiple roles.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Blazing already said he might switch it between two one-shot vigis instead of one 2-shot
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I think you should take out or alter the mason option. I can't see how you can balance it.
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@ Hapa
It was not fancy play, it was just Kush and me being stupid and really pissed off at each other.
I really think that Cheese was the mislynch we should have pushed D2, and there was good potential for it.
Did you realize that people had to abstain and not vote for ”nobody” so your plan could work properly ?
If I have to look back at this game, I would say it's not possible to win at scum if you don't play as a team.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
OK so here's what I'm thinking for changes, having heard your suggestions:
1) townies can't abstain from witchcraft votes
2) gf + 1shot blue vigi 1shot blue vigi is the new scum setup
3) blaspheme returns red on GF, green on everything else (including miller)
This should prevent shennannies, make blaspheme more useful, and also prevent scum from getting unlucky and losing both their bullets to a D1 lynch.
On December 29 2012 08:11 DoYouHas wrote:
I think you should take out or alter the mason option. I can't see how you can balance it.
The mason option for town, or the 1-shot masonry for scum?
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Ah whoops.
Anyway, I'd actually support it being a global scum ability rather than tied to an individual player. It seems very key to scum surviving in the game. Or perhaps it could be toned down from an "any-time" thing to being "tagged" on the other 1-shot scum actions (RB, Mason, etc).
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On December 29 2012 08:11 DoYouHas wrote:
I think you should take out or alter the mason option. I can't see how you can balance it.
This too. Mason seems remarkably underpowered compared to the other options. Honestly I don't think I'd ever use mason chat over something like a DT check.
On December 29 2012 08:12 Djodref wrote:
@ Hapa
It was not fancy play, it was just Kush and me being stupid and really pissed off at each other.
I really think that Cheese was the mislynch we should have pushed D2, and there was good potential for it.
Did you realize that people had to abstain and not vote for ”nobody” so your plan could work properly ?
If I have to look back at this game, I would say it's not possible to win at scum if you don't play as a team.
Oh eh. Details details =P
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On December 29 2012 08:12 Blazinghand wrote:OK so here's what I'm thinking for changes, having heard your suggestions: 1) townies can't abstain from witchcraft votes 2) gf + 1shot blue vigi 1shot blue vigi is the new scum setup 3) blaspheme returns red on GF, green on everything else (including miller) This should prevent shennannies, make blaspheme more useful, and also prevent scum from getting unlucky and losing both their bullets to a D1 lynch. Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 08:11 DoYouHas wrote:
I think you should take out or alter the mason option. I can't see how you can balance it. The mason option for town, or the 1-shot masonry for scum?
Both of them.
Town is not going to use mason, so mafia is not going to use mason as well. You could only out yourself by using mason as a mafia because it was risky/useless to use it as a town player.
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EPT
