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On December 12 2012 17:45 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 17:38 Hapahauli wrote:
So what exactly is wrong with my meta read? I skimmed some of your games, and came to a conclusion based on them. I'm really unsure what your "angle of attack" is here. It is that I am finding your meta-read on me strange, and wanting to let the thread know. Also you elaborating on it is somewhat informative...
Ok strange yes, but it's a bit funny given that I've never been attacked for putting too much effort into a read. Kinda funny really.
But calling my read strange is one thing, but you're seemingly flying off the wall and taking it personally.
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On December 12 2012 17:45 thrawn2112 wrote:hapa do you have any comments on this?
On December 12 2012 17:16 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 09:53 Djodref wrote:On December 10 2012 09:43 thrawn2112 wrote:On December 10 2012 09:37 Djodref wrote:
@thrawn
Did you seriously not read that millers are not self aware ? I dont see what the point of this question is, if I'm town then I obviously can't give a real answer. Not true, if it was a probe post and you did it as town, then you can give a real answer like "I totally read that miller are not self-aware, but I wanted to use this fakeclaim as a probe to see how people would react to it" My problem is that I'm faced with the following choice right now - I have to assume that you did the thing above
- I have to lynch you because you are a lying scum
So, I'll go with the first choice for the moment and ask you how you were expecting people to react to this fakeclaim. All in all, what was your motivation for this post ? I don't like this post. Djo says that he has two options.... 1) that thrawn used the fakeclaim as a probe to see how people reacted to it 2) thrawn is lying scum What I have issue with is he says he's going to go for the first option, but gives no reason for doing so. Then he asks thrawn why thrawn fakeclaimed. I don't see any purpose in djodref asking thrawn that question if djodref is assuming thrawn is town. He even gave thrawn the answer thrawn would need to assuage djo's doubts. He did the same type of thing with with boson later on in the thread. My point is that djo dances around the possibility thrawn is scum but assumes he's town and is strangely interested in why he "fakeclaimed." Adam did almost the exact same thing... he questioned thrawn about his motives (adam trying to appear useful) but wasn't interested in the "is thrawn town or scum" aspect of the issue. Djo then pressure voted thrawn even though he though thrawn was town... this looks like fake scumhunting.
Eh I think you're missing the point of that post. He says he's going with his first angle "for the moment," presumably to see what possible townie motivations you could have for doing what you did. Also he pretty clearly doesn't assume your town, since he pressure-votes you later down the line.
It seems pretty different from what Adam did, since Adam was pretty much implying that you were scum while he was questioning you (without explicitly saying it of course).
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On December 12 2012 17:51 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 17:45 Hapahauli wrote:
But thrawn and/or Tunkeg - some feedback on my read-dump would be appreciated. I pretty much agree exactly with your town list except for one or two others I might ass to it. I disagree with the scum read on bl. You say his play looks like a buss.. I think it looks like he was sheeping palmar. Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 21:27 Bluelightz wrote:
Palmar, when in the video did you comment on adam (the time pls). I only skimmed through it at school. He mentions palmer again when he votes. I also think the timing of his vote looks too early to be a buss. At the time he did it I was still pretty uncertain about who was actually going to be lynched and that's not a good time to buss if you don't need to.
Well sheeping Palmar is at the very least non-alignment indicative. The main issue that I have is that he posted four suspicions to open the game and never followed-up on a single one.
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On December 12 2012 17:57 wherebugsgo wrote:
my play is clean, so I'm scum...the fuck?
I could play like a retard, but no one likes when I do that.
"Clean" in the sense that you're not taking any risks. You're not going out of your way to comment on multiple players or make additional reads - you stick to a case on a player who looks like a lynch-bait candidate throughout D1.
The reality is that I hold vets to a higher standard. Your play doesn't read like a wild and engaged townie - it looks like scum trying to blend in. If you're town, it's on you to prove it in the next few days.
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On December 12 2012 17:59 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 17:45 Hapahauli wrote:
But thrawn and/or Tunkeg - some feedback on my read-dump would be appreciated. TBH I don't care to much about your reads. When I am assessing you your reads will be part of my assessment. But for now your reads are your reads, I agree on some of them (obviously) and some I don't. But I can tell you this much, I like that you posted some reads, it will make it easier to read you further down the line.
Well I'm interested in some of yours though. Particularly the ones on Djo and Vivax, since I'm drawing the opposite conclusions from some folks in the thread atm.
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On December 12 2012 18:04 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 17:52 Hapahauli wrote:
Well sheeping Palmar is at the very least non-alignment indicative. Scum bl would be sheeping a vote for his scumbuddy? I missed the implication behind "at the very least non-alignment indicative." What is the other end of the spectrum?
A sheep vote on a scumbuddy is non-alignment indicative. I think it was in a situation that could very plausibly (and likely IMO) be a bussing attempt. But the point of the statement was to have you consider the 2nd point - that he opened the game with a bunch of suspicions and hasn't said a word about 'em since.
On December 12 2012 18:01 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 17:51 Hapahauli wrote:
Also he pretty clearly doesn't assume your town, since he pressure-votes you later down the line. No, he thought I was town the whole time. His first read on me was: "My first reaction to thrawn post was "yeah, obvious scum" then I thought that he might not have been serious at all. A one liner for a miller claim doesn't look real, regardless of his alignment. The way he answered "nvm, then" shows that he is carefree about it." The other issue is him asking why I did it and pressure voting me to find out. He later says the town motivation he thought I had was that that I was hoping to attract pressure from scum. This was based on a post I made from looney. So if he thinks I'm trying to attract scum attention, why would he vote pressure me so that I'll announce it to the thread?
I think you're trying to attach a logic to his post that really isn't there. My reading was that he pressure-voted you to "confirm" what he thought you were thinking. Though, I'm still not considering him scum based on his actions at the lynch deadline. His play just seems straight-up suicidal if he was scum.
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On December 12 2012 18:07 thrawn2112 wrote:
hapa remember that time I sent you 50 pms? I have a feeling that this game might seem a little bit like that
Yeah it's certainly shaping up that way lol
Well it's probably for the best, since apparently Munk-E didn't do a good job at establishing that he was town - guess I have to do it for him then
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Oh hai Palmar, video was a joy to watch <3
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On December 12 2012 18:18 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 18:01 Hapahauli wrote:On December 12 2012 17:57 wherebugsgo wrote:
my play is clean, so I'm scum...the fuck?
I could play like a retard, but no one likes when I do that. "Clean" in the sense that you're not taking any risks. You're not going out of your way to comment on multiple players or make additional reads - you stick to a case on a player who looks like a lynch-bait candidate throughout D1. The reality is that I hold vets to a higher standard. Your play doesn't read like a wild and engaged townie - it looks like scum trying to blend in. If you're town, it's on you to prove it in the next few days. How have I blended in when I made probably the strongest counter case to Adam? I didn't have to do that. If I was scum and wanted to blend in I could've just bandwagoned on what was clearly the easiest lynch of the day and taken massive town cred by bussing Adam. Instead I chose to pose an alternative because I actually took a stance on someone other than Adam. Everyone found him scummy. I found someone else scummier. And, in fact, Tunkeg's play is still quite erratic.
Making a case on lynch-bait isn't "sticking out" by any measure, and I have no idea why you're representing your play as such. Also, these "I would have done this as scum" arguments ring pretty hollow.
Secondly, the thing I absolutely hate about this type of jubjub logic is that it only makes sense when you don't think. Why are people attacking me? Because I was the only notable person who didn't hardline against Adam. This is confirmation bias. We saw a scum flip, and now everyone thinks that anyone who was late to the wagon or considered killing other people is scum. Sure, that's normal when there's resistance, but when there was never any resistance to begin with usually it's the people who sheep without reason who are the scum bussing. I.E. VE. I actually had concrete reasons to be voting Adam and I was one of the first players to make my opinion on him clear. The fact that I ultimately chose not to vote him is actually not scummy, because trust me, I'm pretty fucking lazy as scum.
People aren't attacking you because only you didn't go after Adam. You haven't been very active, and you've spent most of Day 1 tunneling lynch bait.
Also, lazy as scum? From what I've heard, you're one of the better scum-players around these parts.
So, think about it for a second. You think I'm scum and you apparently hold me to a higher standard than other players. So, what exactly have I done that is not up to your standards? I'm not taking risks? You don't need to take risks to play town! In fact, taking risks is full on retarded as town. I don't think anyone on this forum understands how I operate as scum, seeing as everyone and their mother accuses me of wildly different things as both alignments. I'm notoriously "hard to read" because my play doesn't boil down to "lazy as scum and active as town" unlike the vast majority of other players
I'm not saying that everyone should take "risks" by pulling a Thrawn and claiming miller. But townies (especially veteran townies) will stick their neck out and try to comment on a bunch of things, make reads, tunnel multiple players... etc. When I say you haven't taken any "risks", you haven't done anything but tunnel lynch-bait.
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Anywho it's 4:30 am and I need to crash - gnite folks
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On December 13 2012 01:27 Djodref wrote:@ HapaCan I ask more details about how you went from this Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 13:01 Hapahauli wrote:Regarding DjoI'm not sure if anyone's brought it up, but I watched Palmar's video and was really surprised he skipped over one of his posts in his analysis: On December 10 2012 16:28 Djodref wrote:
@ WBG
If I take your word for jay and assume that you are not scum yourself, I'd say that I don't have huge concerns about anyone at the beginning of this game. Why did you single out Palmar among all the people who didn't participate yet ?
What about Bluelight, Z-Bo, Munk-E, Vivax and Tunkeg ? All of them scum by elimination ? The underlined bit is a very strange thing for a townie to say. Townies are a naturally suspicious folk, and a line of reasoning that assumes someone is not scum really goes against this mentality. Of course I'm not going to judge him on one post, but if there's anyone I could call a scum-read right now, it would be Djo. to this ? Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 17:05 Hapahauli wrote:*snip* Djodref - This one probably needs some 'splainin. The shit that he pulled at the end of the Day 1 lynch in no sane way came from a scum player. He was really enthralled with this idea of starting a last-minute wagon on a player when it was clear that adam would be getting lynched. I can't see hypothetical scum Djo pulling stuff like this, since he would have known that Adam would flip red. The dynamics of the game suggest that Adam was bussed by scum in the later hours. Djodref's play is far too attention-whoring and suicidal to be from scum. In addition, there are posts like this... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=13#260...where he displays a really convoluted thought process that I attribute more to town than scum. *snip* Also, I would like to know if you had ever read the Looney Lynching Mafia game ? Don't you feel like you are maybe the only one with a town read on me ? What do you make of it ?
Sure thang,
I changed my read when I caught up in the thread. In particular, I hadn't read the actions around the D1 lynch, and that's what convinced me you are town. Yes I loosely read Looney. I really don't care if I'm the "only one" with a town read on you, because I think I'm right.
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Regarding WBG
I'm going to have to dive Paranoia Mafia a bit to see if the situations are similar. I will say that all his "I'm not good as scum" mentions in his defense rub me the wrong way, but the WBG thing is coming together a bit too easily for my tastes. This could be due to the influence that Palmar has in the thread atm, but never hurts to check yourself for some confirmation bias.
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On December 13 2012 05:12 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 04:44 Hapahauli wrote:On December 13 2012 01:27 Djodref wrote:@ HapaCan I ask more details about how you went from this On December 12 2012 13:01 Hapahauli wrote:Regarding DjoI'm not sure if anyone's brought it up, but I watched Palmar's video and was really surprised he skipped over one of his posts in his analysis: On December 10 2012 16:28 Djodref wrote:
@ WBG
If I take your word for jay and assume that you are not scum yourself, I'd say that I don't have huge concerns about anyone at the beginning of this game. Why did you single out Palmar among all the people who didn't participate yet ?
What about Bluelight, Z-Bo, Munk-E, Vivax and Tunkeg ? All of them scum by elimination ? The underlined bit is a very strange thing for a townie to say. Townies are a naturally suspicious folk, and a line of reasoning that assumes someone is not scum really goes against this mentality. Of course I'm not going to judge him on one post, but if there's anyone I could call a scum-read right now, it would be Djo. to this ? On December 12 2012 17:05 Hapahauli wrote:*snip* Djodref - This one probably needs some 'splainin. The shit that he pulled at the end of the Day 1 lynch in no sane way came from a scum player. He was really enthralled with this idea of starting a last-minute wagon on a player when it was clear that adam would be getting lynched. I can't see hypothetical scum Djo pulling stuff like this, since he would have known that Adam would flip red. The dynamics of the game suggest that Adam was bussed by scum in the later hours. Djodref's play is far too attention-whoring and suicidal to be from scum. In addition, there are posts like this... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=13#260...where he displays a really convoluted thought process that I attribute more to town than scum. *snip* Also, I would like to know if you had ever read the Looney Lynching Mafia game ? Don't you feel like you are maybe the only one with a town read on me ? What do you make of it ? Sure thang, I changed my read when I caught up in the thread. In particular, I hadn't read the actions around the D1 lynch, and that's what convinced me you are town. Yes I loosely read Looney. I really don't care if I'm the "only one" with a town read on you, because I think I'm right. it's like I don't exist or something or I just exist to get called scum :p + Show Spoiler +hint: I've been calling him town since before you were even in the game
Uh brownie points for you then?
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@ WBG
Throughout your recent day filter, you seem to be awfully trusting of me despite having some serious reservations about Munk-E. Care to explain?
Also regarding Paranoia, you seem to be pointing that "the same shit is happening" in your defense, but I fail to see the similarities in gameplay. At the end of Day 1 in Paranoia, you had just over 1 page of filter. I also think this quote is rather telling of your town mentality in that game:
On December 01 2012 15:17 wherebugsgo wrote:
it's always amusing when on day 1, every time I roll town, I get the same shit for the same stupid reasons. There is a pattern to how I play town: I don't say anything useful for almost all of day 1 because on day 1 I like to observe. That's why my opening votes are usually intended to create reactions, and while they almost always are intentional and on pseudo-scum reads when I post them, my day 1 reads usually change very very quickly.
It's also amusing that every time I roll scum no one calls me scum and then I get shot by some faggot 3rd party or a vigi who is scared of my scum play.
So then I see things like this...
I haven't been very active?
THE FUCK? I have been far more active than probably everyone else in this game. Yet, you call ME "not very active"? LOL.
...which is super odd for two reasons.
1) you really haven't been all that active - you've had ~2-3 pages of Day 1 filter. That's far from "more active than... everyone else in this game".
2) It seems to go against your stated "town mentality" that you like to sit back, be less active, and observe the thread.
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On December 13 2012 06:44 Vivax wrote:
You see, Hapa, you pretend that everyone has to behave consistently throughout all his games, while it's practically impossible to do so all the time. Same as Z-Boson saying that town is more likely to play consistently, which I frankly think isn't true.
You're looking for differences in what he said between a game and another. I'll tell you something, there's a 99 % chance that you'll find an inconsistency about EVERYONE in this thread if you just dig enough. Yes, go find some about me instead.
Now don't get me wrong, I like your efforts at scumhunting, I just think that your last argument is pretty shit and shows that you're cramped in trying to find every little thing to throw at bugs.
You're probably gonna ask: "Well, Vivax, why the hell do you have a townread on him?". I don't have one yet, but it would also help your cause if you stopped writing weak-ass posts managing to make them that big when all you have to point out is an inconsistency between a sentence in a game and a sentence in this one, which I don't think is very reliable.
Maybe you're just trying to save your ass since Munk-E played so badly and are desperately trying to look like you're contributing, explaining all the drama about the stuff. Chill down mate, a day are two days of time to get a good vote rolling.
I think you're missing my intentions here. I'm more trying to inquire into his mentality than looking for any reason to call him scum. If I was dead sure he was scum, I probably wouldn't be asking him questions. Fact is, I'm unsure, and I have to probe into anything I can.
On December 13 2012 06:48 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 06:30 Hapahauli wrote:
@ WBG
Throughout your recent day filter, you seem to be awfully trusting of me despite having some serious reservations about Munk-E. Care to explain? He was fairly inactive and didn't say anything of substance. You're the polar opposite of that. Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 06:30 Hapahauli wrote:
Also regarding Paranoia, you seem to be pointing that "the same shit is happening" in your defense, but I fail to see the similarities in gameplay. At the end of Day 1 in Paranoia, you had just over 1 page of filter. I also think this quote is rather telling of your town mentality in that game: On December 01 2012 15:17 wherebugsgo wrote:
it's always amusing when on day 1, every time I roll town, I get the same shit for the same stupid reasons. There is a pattern to how I play town: I don't say anything useful for almost all of day 1 because on day 1 I like to observe. That's why my opening votes are usually intended to create reactions, and while they almost always are intentional and on pseudo-scum reads when I post them, my day 1 reads usually change very very quickly.
It's also amusing that every time I roll scum no one calls me scum and then I get shot by some faggot 3rd party or a vigi who is scared of my scum play. So then I see things like this... I haven't been very active?
THE FUCK? I have been far more active than probably everyone else in this game. Yet, you call ME "not very active"? LOL. ...which is super odd for two reasons. 1) you really haven't been all that active - you've had ~2-3 pages of Day 1 filter. That's far from "more active than... everyone else in this game". 2) It seems to go against your stated "town mentality" that you like to sit back, be less active, and observe the thread. I like to observe on day 1. That hasn't changed, you can observe while posting. Clearly though I did something wrong last game, since I got lynched. So, this game I've been more proactive about that. (not like it's helping currently) Also I tend to post a lot regardless of alignment so it doesn't really say anything. However 3 pages for day 1 is almost always a lot for anyone. I don't know what kind of spammy games you've been playing, but in most games I've played I've had the most posts or close to it-if you think 3 pages on d1 is not a lot, then clearly we have different definitions of active. (I'm also curious as to where you are getting your benchmarks from, since in almost all the games I've played, I'd define "active" as about a page of filter per day.)
In the games I've been in, I'd say an active player in a mini is 5+ pages of D1 filter. 2-3 pages is pretty average. You also claimed you were more active than anyone else here, when players like clarity, debears, thrawn, marv... etc... all these guys were far more active than yourself.
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On December 13 2012 06:53 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 06:48 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 13 2012 06:30 Hapahauli wrote:
@ WBG
Throughout your recent day filter, you seem to be awfully trusting of me despite having some serious reservations about Munk-E. Care to explain? He was fairly inactive and didn't say anything of substance. You're the polar opposite of that. That'd be hapa of either alignment
Oh and this. Well I guess you (WBG) don't know my meta, but I'm fairly active as scum as well. It feels rather strange to have someone trust me so quickly ya know? No one ever trusts me =(
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On December 13 2012 07:06 Vivax wrote:
Yes I totally think we should be defining the standard measure of activeness in this game.
Even worse than policy discussion.
Le sigh.
WBG claimed he was more active than virtually everyone in the thread in his defense. I pointed out this is clearly not the case.
Inquiring into misrepresentation is useless because?
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On December 13 2012 07:26 Vivax wrote:
I'd also like to add that I've got a townread on bugs even before reaching half of his filter, so I'll join him in calling the people suspecting him a bunch of dumbasses.
That seemed to work pretty well for you yesterday /w Adam
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On December 13 2012 07:34 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 07:28 Vivax wrote:On December 13 2012 07:25 jaybrundage wrote:
Im not gonna answer you if you refuse to quote and show me what your talking about. It's ok, you're gonna get it in the butt tomorrow for doing this. Oh no your threating me after refusing to quote im soooo scared
Jay just answer the question. It sounds like you're trying to pick a fight for the hell of it, and it's doing no one any good.
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EPT
