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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On November 26 2012 13:41 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 12:18 marvellosity wrote:On November 26 2012 07:49 gonzaw wrote:
Other questions so we finish the requirements:
Would you guys mind if in this system we set a standard for setups?
What I mean is, for instance set a standard for action resolution, for notifications and that kind of stuff.
For instance, stuff like:
Scum Roleblocks come before anything else, then come town RBs, then protection/investigation, then KP
Players are always notified if they were shot or RBed, but never notified if they were protected by medic (nor are medics notified if they successfully saved someone or if they successfully protected someone).
Vigs who get Roleblocked still have their bullet to use in another day. However if they use it on someone that "blocks" their shot in any way they lose it
If there are several busdrivers in a game, there should be a standard in how the "reflections" are resolved if several "paths" of bus are created.
in the games i've hosted i've changed some of these things around depending on the setup. there's no absolute standard I take it that's mostly to do because you had the freedom to do that in the first place so you decided to experiment a bit. Also take into account I'm talking about Normal/Newbie games only. If there was an absolute standard, would you feel restricted? Would you feel your setup lacks something or could not be balanced for some reason? Or would you feel it could not be rebalanced in another way without destroying your idea of the setup? blablabla
I've only hosted newbie games (so, normal). I differed the rules on roleblocks and notifications because it was necessary to do so for balance, not because I was just playing around.
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In my games I have always resolved actions (even the complicated ones) in the following way:
Roleblockers occur first
Busdrivers/redirection
Everything else.
All actions within each tier occur at the same time
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On November 27 2012 01:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 13:41 gonzaw wrote:On November 26 2012 12:18 marvellosity wrote:On November 26 2012 07:49 gonzaw wrote:
Other questions so we finish the requirements:
Would you guys mind if in this system we set a standard for setups?
What I mean is, for instance set a standard for action resolution, for notifications and that kind of stuff.
For instance, stuff like:
Scum Roleblocks come before anything else, then come town RBs, then protection/investigation, then KP
Players are always notified if they were shot or RBed, but never notified if they were protected by medic (nor are medics notified if they successfully saved someone or if they successfully protected someone).
Vigs who get Roleblocked still have their bullet to use in another day. However if they use it on someone that "blocks" their shot in any way they lose it
If there are several busdrivers in a game, there should be a standard in how the "reflections" are resolved if several "paths" of bus are created.
in the games i've hosted i've changed some of these things around depending on the setup. there's no absolute standard I take it that's mostly to do because you had the freedom to do that in the first place so you decided to experiment a bit. Also take into account I'm talking about Normal/Newbie games only. If there was an absolute standard, would you feel restricted? Would you feel your setup lacks something or could not be balanced for some reason? Or would you feel it could not be rebalanced in another way without destroying your idea of the setup? blablabla I've only hosted newbie games (so, normal). I differed the rules on roleblocks and notifications because it was necessary to do so for balance, not because I was just playing around.
Why was it necessary to balance?
Why couldn't it be rebalanced in another way? (for instance change other abilities from roles, change those roles themselves, etc).
On November 27 2012 01:12 GreYMisT wrote:
In my games I have always resolved actions (even the complicated ones) in the following way:
Roleblockers occur first
Busdrivers/redirection
Everything else.
All actions within each tier occur at the same time
How would you tackle RBers RBing each other?
For instance the usual "Scum RBer RBs JK who RBs him back" situation like happened in Mario Mafia?
What about a Town RBer RBing a JK who RBed the Scum RBer and stuff like that?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On November 27 2012 01:34 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 01:08 marvellosity wrote:On November 26 2012 13:41 gonzaw wrote:On November 26 2012 12:18 marvellosity wrote:On November 26 2012 07:49 gonzaw wrote:
Other questions so we finish the requirements:
Would you guys mind if in this system we set a standard for setups?
What I mean is, for instance set a standard for action resolution, for notifications and that kind of stuff.
For instance, stuff like:
Scum Roleblocks come before anything else, then come town RBs, then protection/investigation, then KP
Players are always notified if they were shot or RBed, but never notified if they were protected by medic (nor are medics notified if they successfully saved someone or if they successfully protected someone).
Vigs who get Roleblocked still have their bullet to use in another day. However if they use it on someone that "blocks" their shot in any way they lose it
If there are several busdrivers in a game, there should be a standard in how the "reflections" are resolved if several "paths" of bus are created.
in the games i've hosted i've changed some of these things around depending on the setup. there's no absolute standard I take it that's mostly to do because you had the freedom to do that in the first place so you decided to experiment a bit. Also take into account I'm talking about Normal/Newbie games only. If there was an absolute standard, would you feel restricted? Would you feel your setup lacks something or could not be balanced for some reason? Or would you feel it could not be rebalanced in another way without destroying your idea of the setup? blablabla I've only hosted newbie games (so, normal). I differed the rules on roleblocks and notifications because it was necessary to do so for balance, not because I was just playing around. Why was it necessary to balance? Why couldn't it be rebalanced in another way? (for instance change other abilities from roles, change those roles themselves, etc).
Because then I'd end up with a setup that I didn't want. If I wanted other roles in my game I'd have used other roles in the first place.
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Well yeah, I'm asking how it's a setup you didn't want.
Normal/Newbie setups are "simple" in a sense. The roles and mechanics take a step back so the game is more analytic and the roles just "enhance" that experience (compared to Themed games at least).
I can imagine a certain combination of special roles in a themed game require you to not abide to the "absolute standard" and changes those rules (about RBing and notification, etc).
But I don't really see that happening in normal/newbie games. Like what specific thing about the setup made you go "Hmm, I think people should not be notified for being RBed, it'd make more sense/balance the setup/create a setup I want"?
Again, is it because you "wanted" something and used it just because you had the freedom to do so, or because the setup itself needed it in one way? Like if it didn't have RB notifications it'd be unbalanced towards town because of X reason or something like that?
Also, would you host a normal/newbie game even if it had this "absolute standard"? That's the main question I'm asking.
If hosts won't abide to the standard then there's no point in the system (since nobody will use it).
Also if everybody opposes it I'll make the effort of trying to keep those "customizations" of setups in mind, even if things get more complicated (for both me and the hosts)
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
It was a 9 player game and in a game with so few players you have to be delicate with the balance.
So roleblock notifications are not given basically to avoid too much information being given in such a small setup.
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So you wouldn't like if I forced every setup to notify roleblocks then?
Would notifying roleblocks be the only thing you'd mind having control of as a host, or are there other aspects of an "absolute standard" that you'd like the host to have control about?
The other one was Medics getting notifications of saves or something like that, which some setups had. Would you mind if I just forced each setup to NOT notify saves of any kind?
Any other stuff I may be missing?
Also, any other thoughts on the other stuff? Like that "A whole bunch of RBers RB each other" situation, and the "How do bus drivers work when there are a lot of them in a game?" one, and also the "How much info does a host want" one.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On November 27 2012 08:06 gonzaw wrote:
So you wouldn't like if I forced every setup to notify roleblocks then?
Would notifying roleblocks be the only thing you'd mind having control of as a host, or are there other aspects of an "absolute standard" that you'd like the host to have control about?
The other one was Medics getting notifications of saves or something like that, which some setups had. Would you mind if I just forced each setup to NOT notify saves of any kind?
Any other stuff I may be missing?
Also, any other thoughts on the other stuff? Like that "A whole bunch of RBers RB each other" situation, and the "How do bus drivers work when there are a lot of them in a game?" one, and also the "How much info does a host want" one.
I've also played around with how the whole roleblockers interact things work.
Plus roleblock notifications.
I guess what I'm saying is, "standard" is a difficult thing to agree on. I'd like to say my setups are 100% standard but like I said in one case I notify roleblocks and the other I don't, simply for balance.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think you can code in a standard because even within standard, the rules vary.
On a slightly more abstract note, I'd be kinda annoyed as a host at being told that this certain way is how it's going to be.
Obviously I understand that what I'm saying makes your job much more complicated, but in my opinion I think you need variance in what constitutes "standard" when you come to things like notifications or resolutions. Like, even between games I've changed the rules on how roleblocks work, for balance purposes. maybe one is right, and the other is wrong, but I think the host needs to be able to choose which he prefers. As a host, I would be loathe to use a system where I didn't have the choice.
In the end, a system for hosting comes down to making the life of the HOST easier. One of the things about being a host is that you have that control, and I'd hate to give that up. I would 100% do everything manually before I had to choose one option that I didn't like in an automated system.
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Well...fuck lol
Okay then, what are the "tiny" bits that you change from setup to setup?
From what you told me they are:
-Notifying people if they are RBed or not
-Notifying medics if they made a successful save or not (and some other "medic-related" notifications perhaps?)
-How RBers interact (although I'd like some more specific stuff, like rules or something)
Something else?
Notifications is easy to implement, and it's just a checkbox for the host to determine when creating the setup "Do you want people notified of being RBed? Y/N" and that kind of stuff.
The RB stuff is more complicated, both to implement, to "understand" (like what specific rules the host wants), and for the host to check when creating a game.
Also don't know about other stuff. If it's about specific roles, like a SK choosing to be night/bullet-immune or just being a regular SK or being always bulletproof, etc, then that can be changed easily, and can be easily changed in next iterations of the system.
Is there anything else? (at least from your POV as host)
Also remember that in this 1st prototype I doubt I'll add any of this stuff. At least just to test a couple of games. If you don't want to don't host one, but hopefully at least 1 host would like to use it to test it :/
Again, ideally when the final product is released it'll take EVERYTHING into account and be perfect and we'll live happily ever after and all that jazz.
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On November 27 2012 01:34 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 01:08 marvellosity wrote:On November 26 2012 13:41 gonzaw wrote:On November 26 2012 12:18 marvellosity wrote:On November 26 2012 07:49 gonzaw wrote:
Other questions so we finish the requirements:
Would you guys mind if in this system we set a standard for setups?
What I mean is, for instance set a standard for action resolution, for notifications and that kind of stuff.
For instance, stuff like:
Scum Roleblocks come before anything else, then come town RBs, then protection/investigation, then KP
Players are always notified if they were shot or RBed, but never notified if they were protected by medic (nor are medics notified if they successfully saved someone or if they successfully protected someone).
Vigs who get Roleblocked still have their bullet to use in another day. However if they use it on someone that "blocks" their shot in any way they lose it
If there are several busdrivers in a game, there should be a standard in how the "reflections" are resolved if several "paths" of bus are created.
in the games i've hosted i've changed some of these things around depending on the setup. there's no absolute standard I take it that's mostly to do because you had the freedom to do that in the first place so you decided to experiment a bit. Also take into account I'm talking about Normal/Newbie games only. If there was an absolute standard, would you feel restricted? Would you feel your setup lacks something or could not be balanced for some reason? Or would you feel it could not be rebalanced in another way without destroying your idea of the setup? blablabla I've only hosted newbie games (so, normal). I differed the rules on roleblocks and notifications because it was necessary to do so for balance, not because I was just playing around. Why was it necessary to balance? Why couldn't it be rebalanced in another way? (for instance change other abilities from roles, change those roles themselves, etc). Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 01:12 GreYMisT wrote:
In my games I have always resolved actions (even the complicated ones) in the following way:
Roleblockers occur first
Busdrivers/redirection
Everything else.
All actions within each tier occur at the same time
How would you tackle RBers RBing each other? For instance the usual "Scum RBer RBs JK who RBs him back" situation like happened in Mario Mafia? What about a Town RBer RBing a JK who RBed the Scum RBer and stuff like that?
They roleblock each other because their actions occur at the same time. Nothing happens but they are notified of each becoming roleblocked.
I imagine a real life roleblock to be something akin to a Net gun, and I imagine what would happen if 2 people fired a net gun at each other at the exact same time.
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On November 27 2012 09:18 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 01:34 gonzaw wrote:On November 27 2012 01:08 marvellosity wrote:On November 26 2012 13:41 gonzaw wrote:On November 26 2012 12:18 marvellosity wrote:On November 26 2012 07:49 gonzaw wrote:
Other questions so we finish the requirements:
Would you guys mind if in this system we set a standard for setups?
What I mean is, for instance set a standard for action resolution, for notifications and that kind of stuff.
For instance, stuff like:
Scum Roleblocks come before anything else, then come town RBs, then protection/investigation, then KP
Players are always notified if they were shot or RBed, but never notified if they were protected by medic (nor are medics notified if they successfully saved someone or if they successfully protected someone).
Vigs who get Roleblocked still have their bullet to use in another day. However if they use it on someone that "blocks" their shot in any way they lose it
If there are several busdrivers in a game, there should be a standard in how the "reflections" are resolved if several "paths" of bus are created.
in the games i've hosted i've changed some of these things around depending on the setup. there's no absolute standard I take it that's mostly to do because you had the freedom to do that in the first place so you decided to experiment a bit. Also take into account I'm talking about Normal/Newbie games only. If there was an absolute standard, would you feel restricted? Would you feel your setup lacks something or could not be balanced for some reason? Or would you feel it could not be rebalanced in another way without destroying your idea of the setup? blablabla I've only hosted newbie games (so, normal). I differed the rules on roleblocks and notifications because it was necessary to do so for balance, not because I was just playing around. Why was it necessary to balance? Why couldn't it be rebalanced in another way? (for instance change other abilities from roles, change those roles themselves, etc). On November 27 2012 01:12 GreYMisT wrote:
In my games I have always resolved actions (even the complicated ones) in the following way:
Roleblockers occur first
Busdrivers/redirection
Everything else.
All actions within each tier occur at the same time
How would you tackle RBers RBing each other? For instance the usual "Scum RBer RBs JK who RBs him back" situation like happened in Mario Mafia? What about a Town RBer RBing a JK who RBed the Scum RBer and stuff like that? They roleblock each other because their actions occur at the same time. Nothing happens but they are notified of each becoming roleblocked. I imagine a real life roleblock to be something akin to a Net gun, and I imagine what would happen if 2 people fired a net gun at each other at the exact same time.
The nets would hit in mid-air and then the gunners would both scamper away to freedom?
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Okay, another question:
How do you guys handle scum's KP? Is 1 specific scum entitled with sending scum's KP, or do you send it as a faction?
I say this because several mechanics revolve around this.
For instance, watchers/trackers, which would only be useful (basically) if a single guy sent the kill (so he visits someone) instead of the whole faction (where he wouldn't see anyone visiting).
Also town RBers/jailers. If the faction itself sends KP, then no scum can be RBed to prevent scum KP from going through, which again makes town RBers useless basically.
So how do you guys handle it? I see 3 options:
-Always let 1 scum send the kill, and every track/watch/RB action done on him affects results/if the shot goes through
-Let scum send the KP as a faction, meaning trackers/watchers/town RBers would be basically useless (maybe except to track blues...?)
-Let scum send the KP as a faction, but one guy from them is randomly chosen to deliver the kill
If you choose 1, who sends the night kill? Any scum can send the night kill or a specific role, like the Goon? In that case what happens if the Goon dies? Which scum gets his ability to send the kill?
Etc, etc, etc
This ties in part with the RB question:
If a single scum sends the night kill and can get RBed, and a Jailer RBs him, but the Scum RBer RBs the Jailer, does the scum KP go through or not?
This applies as well if the scum RBer is the only one left alive and him and the JK RB each other (like what happened in Mario Mafia I think)
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I think the most common way is for the scum to specify the person to carry out the NK, then in absense of them specifying, it is randomed. Like you said, one person has to carry out the kill or things like town Roleblocker are pretty useless.
Then, it doesn't matter what role carries out the kills. Some hosts don't allow scum with an active ability to carry out the kill and use their action in the same night, though, and some do.
It's just host preference stuff again 
For the RB thing: If you're handling all roleblocks simultaneously, then no, the kill would not go through. That's why I chose to give scum roleblocks priority in Mario.
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Hey, I was thinking about something as well:
How about having a list of claims? Like claims of any type?
That way the players in the game have a way to get info from the game they may have missed.
For instance, if someone claims RBed, he/someone else PMs the bot:
"##New Claim
From: X,
Subject: Was RBed
Description: None
Link to post: [link to the post]"
If someone claimed Medic, it'd be:
"##New Claim
From: Y
Subject: Claimed Medic
Description: Claimed medic. Claimed he protected Z on N1 and T on N2
Link to post: [link]"
That way, a player could at any point PM the bot and get a list of all claims, either from the whole game, or for a specific cycle, etc.
Obviously this "PM the bot" thing is annoying, specially having to write "##New Claim" and the like. But if there was a better interface it'd be cool I think...
...unless you guys think it'd balance the game towards town too much since townies always forget that kind of stuff >_>
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On November 27 2012 10:50 Keirathi wrote:I think the most common way is for the scum to specify the person to carry out the NK, then in absense of them specifying, it is randomed. Like you said, one person has to carry out the kill or things like town Roleblocker are pretty useless. Then, it doesn't matter what role carries out the kills. Some hosts don't allow scum with an active ability to carry out the kill and use their action in the same night, though, and some do. It's just host preference stuff again For the RB thing: If you're handling all roleblocks simultaneously, then no, the kill would not go through. That's why I chose to give scum roleblocks priority in Mario.
But at least it's quantifiable.
Adding an option "Is the scum that sends the night KP able to perform an active action that night? Y/N" when hosts create a game is easy (again, another checkbox), and it's not that hard to implement in the system, since it's checked when the night action (for instance a RB) arrives and nowhere else.
Yeah, that would be a possible "customization" for the host.
It would obviously deactivate if that scum is the sole scum remaining, since he's forced to send the KP (and forcing him to not send the KP to RB someone for instance doesn't make sense).
That Roleblock thing, I guess it's quantifiable in a way.
"Does Scum Roleblock take precedence in Action Resolution? Y/N" would be another simple option for the host to make, although it'd be harder to implement myself I think
The thing is that some things may not be that quantifiable. Dunno which though (since people haven't really been giving more examples), but I'm sure some hosts can come up with some.
For this 1st iteration, I plan on making it simple for both hosts and me, which means using this "absolute standard" and making setups more strict.
However, of course it's still playable, but some "specific" setups won't be possible. Since it's just a prototype it'll only handle 1 game at a time, so if any of you want to host a game with specific mechanics the system doesn't handle and you don't want to force your setup into something to play it under the system then just host it by hand.
I'll obviously take into account all these considerations for the future, but right now it makes everything x500 more complicated and I want to keep the 1st prototype simple and effective (e.g has less bugs, less stuff to worry about, etc).
So far I'll be considering these as the "absolute standard". If you guys think it should be different (again, just for this 1st iteration) tell me:
1)Scum Roleblock takes precedence on Town Roleblockers or Jailers, but the other RBs happen simultaneously
2)Scum HAVE to send one of their own to send the kill. If they don't it'll be assumed they won't kill that night. This scum faction KP done by this scum player will function like any other KP action
3)Players will be notified if they are roleblocked.
4)Medics won't be notified of anything related to saves/protection, and nor will the protected players
I'll edit this in as I remember more >_>
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For the future I was thinking about a "What would happen?" feature:
Basically, you know how at times you wonder "What would happen if a vig shot a hider, who hid behind someone that was bus driven with someone that was RBed, and the medic protected the vig while a mad hatter planted a bomb on the bus driver?" and stuff like that about a setup?
It may be cool, after the game is done and that setup is archived for everybody to see, to implement a way for people to get a response for those kind of questions.
In-game there would be a feature perhaps, at least one that took only the knowledge of the role that's asking the question into account, and he can choose "standard" roles and see how his role would react to them (like when you get some weird role and start asking the host "What if a vig shoots me by I'm Rbed?" "What if I spoon a cop who checked the guy I forked?", etc).
Again, seems complex like fuck so it'll be done in the distant future (if it's done at all)
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Hmm, I have a doubt about Rbers and bus drivers:
Imagine there are 4 players, Rber, Bus driver X and Y
Now imagine the busdriver busses X and Y.
I can easily assume that if the RBer RBs the bus driver, then his action doesn't take place right?
But what happens if the RBer RBs X?
Does he RB X or Y?
Mainly because how this "action resolution" thing is being talked about.
If RBs happen before busdrives everytime, then X would be RBed, THEN the bus driver would bus X with Y, but X would already been RBed
But it would make more sense for Y to be RBed right?
If so, how would this scale for more roles and situations? For instance this situation:
1 RBer
2 Bus Drivers A and B
2 townies X and Y
A busses X and Y
B busses Y and A
RBer RBs X
What happens here?
There is a bus between X and Y, and Y and the bus driver A
Therefore once the bus drivers made their actions, there is a bus between X and A. Anything that happens to A happens to X, and viceversa.
Let's assume we take the 2nd choice from the previous scenario: the RBer just "marks" X as RBed, waits for bus driven actions, and then RBs the specified target (in the previous case it'd be Y).
Imagine something happens here as well. The RBer "marks" X, waits for bus driven actions, and then actually RBes his target......which in this case would be Bus Driver A.
But if Bus Driver A is RBed, then the bus between X and Y doesn't exist, therefore the RBer doesn't bus A at all but instead RBs X as he initially planned to!
If this is the case then, Bus Driver A is no longer RBed, therefore his bus between X and Y takes place, therefore the RBer busses A, therefore the bus between X and Y no longer exists, therefore X is RBed, therefore A is no longer RBed, etc etc etc
How the hell is this situation resolved? Bear in mind that it's entirely possible for a setup like this to be in the system (and in a mafia game in general, with 1 scum and 1 town bus driver).
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I'd say stop wracking your brain over this kind of thing. In games with bus drivers, the rules are defined so this sort of thing is consistent (for instance, roleblocks always go first, bussed actions aren't transitive, etc.) Also note that you don't need 2 bus drivers for that example you gave:
A is bus driver and he busses between himself and B
C roleblocks B. If the roleblock is bussed, then it creates inconsistent situations.
I really wouldn't worry about bus drivers right now, because any rules involving bus drivers (and other forms of redirectors, see SSB-64 mafia for some really weird stuff where the wrong rules would have led to infinite damage on two players) are going to be very complex to avoid inconsistent situations.
As I said on Skype: build a simple system first. Allow people to run a C9++ setup. That's more than complicated enough for an initial step. Then extend it to other normal games, where things like notifications and RB rules are not as standardized. After that is in place and people are using it, see what else people want. Eventually bus drivers might be possible, but for now I'd treat them just like games with HP, conveyor belts or "inventors": far future work.
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Well I thought bus drivers were pretty "common" in Normal games so I wanted to leave them.
Well yeah, the easiest choice is to leave them out.
As it's going now it could run a c9++ setup...unless it has some special mechanic I don't remember.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On November 27 2012 10:50 Keirathi wrote:I think the most common way is for the scum to specify the person to carry out the NK, then in absense of them specifying, it is randomed. Like you said, one person has to carry out the kill or things like town Roleblocker are pretty useless. Then, it doesn't matter what role carries out the kills. Some hosts don't allow scum with an active ability to carry out the kill and use their action in the same night, though, and some do. It's just host preference stuff again For the RB thing: If you're handling all roleblocks simultaneously, then no, the kill would not go through. That's why I chose to give scum roleblocks priority in Mario.
yeah it depends on the game. definitely it's usually carried out by a player.
but for example in GMarsh's games I think the KP is factional, as the roles present are doctor and no jailkeeper/town rber.
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EPT
