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On November 21 2012 15:17 GreYMisT wrote:
Getting a bot to resolve night actions would (as far as I can tell) be extremely hard. maybe you can for normal games, but even then different hosts have different variations and interactions of roles.
Yeah we basically have everything about game creation decided except roles and their abilities (and how they interact with other roles)
EDIT: I plan on automating your crazy setups one day Greymist!
Although at this point of the project (beginning of it) I'll sadly have to ignore the "weird" setup mechanics (like DragonBall Z power and Hidden QT Markets)  + Show Spoiler +Wasn't DBZ mafia iGrok's? Damn I don't remember
You'll still have to control it yourself, but we planned on making it easier to control (via a GUI for instance) rather than a crude google docs spreadsheet
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On November 21 2012 15:17 GreYMisT wrote:
Getting a bot to resolve night actions would (as far as I can tell) be extremely hard. maybe you can for normal games, but even then different hosts have different variations and interactions of roles.
This is what I'm talking about. In the end hosts have different ideas and even if you made them all possible within your system, just learning how that system works might be too much hassle for hosts to bother to deal with just to host their game. In the end your system might end up being more work to hosts (at least in the short run) than just doing it the old fashioned way and you should consider that. Ýou don't know if hosts will compromise their setups to accomodate your system and even if you make your system flexible enough you don't know if it will be too complicated for hosts to even bother with.
It's also cool that some people who actually host start talking inhere instead of just Acrofales and me telling you that an iterative development cycle would suit this project a lot more than a sequential one. One of the biggest boons is that you'll actually get something out that people can use and then end users can provide feedback a lot more easily.
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when you say "Technically, if the forum is a bitch and doesn't even let you use bots (for instance)"
I had to quit reading
Can you stop coming off so abrasively...?
We have tried bots before. Do you know who Zona is? People get confused by them.
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On November 22 2012 00:10 Bill Murray wrote:
when you say "Technically, if the forum is a bitch and doesn't even let you use bots (for instance)"
I had to quit reading
Can you stop coming off so abrasively...?
We have tried bots before. Do you know who Zona is? People get confused by them.
I remember Purgatory mafia, and you had to vote via PM and send a message with a "Purgatory:EX: Player" format or something like that.
I get that's pretty confusing, but I plan on having a database of the current players in the current games so the player doesn't have to format anything.
Also of course voting done in voting thread, even with "hidden votes" (the vote count will only show votes from voting thread, while the "real" vote count shows the real votes).
Anyways meh, I may do what you said prphlz. Make the "simple" system that just uses the bot to do vote counts and resolve night actions. That can be used both here and in OMGUS I think so it would likely work.
Also it should run only one game at a time (in this 1st iteration), if not things get messy (for instance if a player plays 2 games at the same time, the bot would not be able to know if a "##Kill: X" PM from that player belongs to the 1st or 2nd game....and again I don't want to make it complicated by forcing the PMs to have a certain format).
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On November 21 2012 16:51 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 15:17 GreYMisT wrote:
Getting a bot to resolve night actions would (as far as I can tell) be extremely hard. maybe you can for normal games, but even then different hosts have different variations and interactions of roles. Yeah we basically have everything about game creation decided except roles and their abilities (and how they interact with other roles) EDIT: I plan on automating your crazy setups one day Greymist! Although at this point of the project (beginning of it) I'll sadly have to ignore the "weird" setup mechanics (like DragonBall Z power and Hidden QT Markets) + Show Spoiler +Wasn't DBZ mafia iGrok's? Damn I don't remember You'll still have to control it yourself, but we planned on making it easier to control (via a GUI for instance) rather than a crude google docs spreadsheet
DBZ was iGrok, and my spreadsheet for CT is actually pretty sick, don't hate.
But if you could make a bot to help with things I would surely welcome it and try it out
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Okay, how about this for this "basic 1st bot-based-system"?:
Before start of the game:
- Host PMs bot with info about the game, and the game is created
- When Host creates Signup thread, he gives the URL to the bot so the bot can count the signups and PM the host back when the signups are closed.
- When the game starts, the host PMs the Bot for it to start
- (For TL) The bot also PMs him the list of filters of each player
Game start - Day:
- Bot checks the voting thread regularly. When he sees a new vote he updates the vote count
- Players can PM the bot at any time (with a certain message) and the bot will automatically post the votecount in the thread or give it to them via PM
- Alternatively, someone can post "##Votecount" in the thread, and the bot sees it and creates the votecount. That way scum don't just spam PMs to the bot to spam the thread with votecounts or something >_>
- The host should be able to PM the bot and get a votecount for himself as well
- When the deadline hits the bot sends the votecount and guys who get modkilled/replaced to the host so the host can create the new night post
Game start - Night:
- Players PM the bot for night actions with the correspondent "##(Action): (Target)" format (and nothing else, I take it the PM title can be anything)
- If the action was correct, the bot PMs the dude back with confirmation. If it's not correct he PMs him back saying it was incorrect
- The host can PM the bot at any time to see all the night actions that have been done
- Once the night deadline is over, the bot PMs the host all the night actions that have been made and the results so the host can make the new day post
- Alternatively, the bot just PMs the host all night actions but doesn't do anything. Then the host PMs the bot back with what should happen. For instance "marv gets shot but survives" and "VE dies" and "Keirathi is RBed" and other "normal game" options. This is in case different hosts may want to do different stuff depending on night actions.
Game End:
- Once a cycle ends with a faction winning, the bot PMs that info to the host (with who won, etc) so the host can make the end-game post
- The bot should also PM the host the player list with all roles, a list of all night actions and results from each night, the vote count of each day with who got lynched, and links to QTs (so the host can post that info himself)
Host Control (at any point in the game):
- The host can PM the bot to modkill a player at any point in the game
- The host can PM the bot to replace a player with another one at any point in the game
- Edit: Alternatively, whenever someone fails to vote by the deadline, the bot gives the host the option to either modkill him or replace him, and if he replaces him he should give the username of the new user that does.
- The host can PM the bot to end the game (for some reason)
- The host can PM the bot to end the game in a draw instantly (again for some reason)
- The host can PM the bot to get any info from the game he wants. For instance links to QTs, name of the game/link to the game (in case he forgets lol), player list, role list, list of previous night actions, list of previous vote counts, list of previous results, etc.
Would this sound good for you guys? What changes would you guys make to it as either players or as hosts?
At the very least I want the bot to substitute for the "spreadsheet" the hosts have to keep track of roles/actions/stuff, and for the voting count, which I think would be handled above.
Also in this 1st iteration it would only work for normal and newbie games, just to keep it "simple".
C9++ games won't do since it needs more design to it, and can be more "complicated" at the time of creating a new game.
Also since it'd be a prototype the bot would just handle 1 game at a time, for instance to not get PMs confused and make it so night action PMs need a specific format (like that one from purgatory mafia).
If you guys want this then yeah I'd need some help with programming the bot since I know nothing about bots lol.
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Also, just for this 1st test, what are the major differences in roles in Normal/Newbie games I should take into account?
I just noticed this new Newbie game doesn't notify people if they are RBed. That's good because if I hadn't noticed I may have overseen that and never given the option to take it into account.
Anything else?
Cops always return "town" or "scum" right? Or do some normal games here use the cop to get a role as well? Or do you guys use a different role for that?
GFs always return "town"? Or do they choose how they return (if the cop can check roles)?
Framers can or can not frame their scumbuddies so they come back "town"?
SKs are always "either 1-shot bulletproof at night or 1-shot investigation immune" every game? Or not?
Anything else I'm missing?
Oh yeah, Millers being self-aware or not, but I don't know if that falls under "Normal/Newbie" games
And Masons being in pairs and confirmed town to each other, or just 1 Mason who can add 1 guy at his circle at night, etc.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:27 gonzaw wrote:
Also, just for this 1st test, what are the major differences in roles in Normal/Newbie games I should take into account?
I just noticed this new Newbie game doesn't notify people if they are RBed. That's good because if I hadn't noticed I may have overseen that and never given the option to take it into account.
Anything else?
Cops always return "town" or "scum" right? Or do some normal games here use the cop to get a role as well? Or do you guys use a different role for that?
GFs always return "town"? Or do they choose how they return (if the cop can check roles)?
Framers can or can not frame their scumbuddies so they come back "town"?
SKs are always "either 1-shot bulletproof at night or 1-shot investigation immune" every game? Or not?
Anything else I'm missing?
Oh yeah, Millers being self-aware or not, but I don't know if that falls under "Normal/Newbie" games
And Masons being in pairs and confirmed town to each other, or just 1 Mason who can add 1 guy at his circle at night, etc.
The only different in my opinion is the restriction that the players involve have to meet the games played requirement. Hosts are allowed to modify the roles however they would like.
Also, in your previous post you mentioned the vote update. If I recall correctly, Zona's bot used the OP of the voting thread to keep a running vote count. I'm not sure if that makes things easier for you, but its something to consider.
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For votecounts make it a time thing, not a "everytime there is a new vote". I like this in combination with the ##Votecount thing
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On November 24 2012 09:15 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 05:27 gonzaw wrote:
Also, just for this 1st test, what are the major differences in roles in Normal/Newbie games I should take into account?
I just noticed this new Newbie game doesn't notify people if they are RBed. That's good because if I hadn't noticed I may have overseen that and never given the option to take it into account.
Anything else?
Cops always return "town" or "scum" right? Or do some normal games here use the cop to get a role as well? Or do you guys use a different role for that?
GFs always return "town"? Or do they choose how they return (if the cop can check roles)?
Framers can or can not frame their scumbuddies so they come back "town"?
SKs are always "either 1-shot bulletproof at night or 1-shot investigation immune" every game? Or not?
Anything else I'm missing?
Oh yeah, Millers being self-aware or not, but I don't know if that falls under "Normal/Newbie" games
And Masons being in pairs and confirmed town to each other, or just 1 Mason who can add 1 guy at his circle at night, etc. The only different in my opinion is the restriction that the players involve have to meet the games played requirement. Hosts are allowed to modify the roles however they would like. Also, in your previous post you mentioned the vote update. If I recall correctly, Zona's bot used the OP of the voting thread to keep a running vote count. I'm not sure if that makes things easier for you, but its something to consider.
Oh I didn't mean differences between Normal games and Newbie games, I just meant taking those as a whole what differences are between different games (either Normal or Newbie).
For instance in one Newbie game people may get notified of being RBed, but in another one they won't.
That kind of difference.
Yeah but I want to know the "reach" of host changing the roles.
In a normal game a host won't make a Cop a "Firebreathing detective who each night can breathe fire on people, if he targets scum the scum catches on fire and if he's RBer he has to post in the thread "I'm on fire!" but if he's GF he has to post "Give me water!" " or something like that since it'd make it a themed game instead.
Just to keep things simple but still being able to store roles and shit in the system I want the simplest "differences" in roles from Normal and newbie games so at least we can start testing it with those.
For instance, what roles would you consider Normal/Newbie and which ones would not appear on one?
We can start with that.
On November 24 2012 09:43 GreYMisT wrote:
For votecounts make it a time thing, not a "everytime there is a new vote". I like this in combination with the ##Votecount thing
Yeah I don't think there's even a way of doing that with a bot so that's what will happen anyways lol 
It should be as constant as possible I think, maybe 1-3 minutes? Because near the deadline things can get chaotic and people may need quick votecounts and I don't want them to be outdated since it can fuck the game up.
I could make it so it does it every 10 seconds or something 10 minutes before the deadline or something like that I guess.
Unless I misunderstood. You mean the internal votes should be updated every certain time or you mean that the votecount should be posted in the thread with a minimum of a certain time to avoid spamming?
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On November 24 2012 10:03 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 09:15 kitaman27 wrote:On November 24 2012 05:27 gonzaw wrote:
Also, just for this 1st test, what are the major differences in roles in Normal/Newbie games I should take into account?
I just noticed this new Newbie game doesn't notify people if they are RBed. That's good because if I hadn't noticed I may have overseen that and never given the option to take it into account.
Anything else?
Cops always return "town" or "scum" right? Or do some normal games here use the cop to get a role as well? Or do you guys use a different role for that?
GFs always return "town"? Or do they choose how they return (if the cop can check roles)?
Framers can or can not frame their scumbuddies so they come back "town"?
SKs are always "either 1-shot bulletproof at night or 1-shot investigation immune" every game? Or not?
Anything else I'm missing?
Oh yeah, Millers being self-aware or not, but I don't know if that falls under "Normal/Newbie" games
And Masons being in pairs and confirmed town to each other, or just 1 Mason who can add 1 guy at his circle at night, etc. The only different in my opinion is the restriction that the players involve have to meet the games played requirement. Hosts are allowed to modify the roles however they would like. Also, in your previous post you mentioned the vote update. If I recall correctly, Zona's bot used the OP of the voting thread to keep a running vote count. I'm not sure if that makes things easier for you, but its something to consider. Oh I didn't mean differences between Normal games and Newbie games, I just meant taking those as a whole what differences are between different games (either Normal or Newbie). For instance in one Newbie game people may get notified of being RBed, but in another one they won't. That kind of difference. Yeah but I want to know the "reach" of host changing the roles. In a normal game a host won't make a Cop a "Firebreathing detective who each night can breathe fire on people, if he targets scum the scum catches on fire and if he's RBer he has to post in the thread "I'm on fire!" but if he's GF he has to post "Give me water!" " or something like that since it'd make it a themed game instead. Just to keep things simple but still being able to store roles and shit in the system I want the simplest "differences" in roles from Normal and newbie games so at least we can start testing it with those. For instance, what roles would you consider Normal/Newbie and which ones would not appear on one? We can start with that. Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 09:43 GreYMisT wrote:
For votecounts make it a time thing, not a "everytime there is a new vote". I like this in combination with the ##Votecount thing Yeah I don't think there's even a way of doing that with a bot so that's what will happen anyways lol It should be as constant as possible I think, maybe 1-3 minutes? Because near the deadline things can get chaotic and people may need quick votecounts and I don't want them to be outdated since it can fuck the game up. I could make it so it does it every 10 seconds or something 10 minutes before the deadline or something like that I guess. Unless I misunderstood. You mean the internal votes should be updated every certain time or you mean that the votecount should be posted in the thread with a minimum of a certain time to avoid spamming?
I mean have the bot post every 2 ish hours. When you get close to the deadline people will be spamming ##Votecount in the thread anyway.
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I guess I can make it so that it can post a votecount only every 2 hours as long as there's no new vote. If there's a new vote the time is "reset", so when there's a quick succession of votes people can check the different vote counts each time.
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On November 24 2012 11:16 gonzaw wrote:
I guess I can make it so that it can post a votecount only every 2 hours as long as there's no new vote. If there's a new vote the time is "reset", so when there's a quick succession of votes people can check the different vote counts each time.
ah ok, sounds interesting
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The way I would do it is:
Vote count every 2 hours automatically.
If a ##Votecount is asked for, reset the timer to 2 hours before it does another one automatically. ##Votecount has a 30 minute cooldown itself.
At the end of the day, an automatic vote count is posted at 2 hours remaining, then 1 hour remaining, then 30 minutes, then 15, then 5, then 3. A manual ##Votecount can be called for during that last 2 hours period at any time, with only a 1 minute cooldown.
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Oh I didn't mean that it'd post the vote count automatically every 2 hours, I meant that 2 hours would be that "cooldown" time after someone posts "##Votecount" in the thread
I don't want a votecount to be posted in the thread if it's not necessary (for instance if nobody unvotes or votes)
Could make it that if there's a new vote it can post the votecount automatically only with a 2 hour cooldown effect.
So if people are constantly voting and unvoting, then yes it'd post the votecount automatically every 2 hours.
If someone posts ##Votecount it'll have a cooldown effect of 2 hours as well (for a new votecount when someone posts ##Votecount) as long as there are no new votes (where the cooldown effect is over, and someone can post ##Votecount again or it'll be done automatically after 2 hours).
If there are no new votes at all, I don't think it'd be necessary to post a useless votecount in the thread, it'd only just clog up the thread, specially at those times where nobody posts for a few hours and the bot would just be double or triple-posting :/
Oh that "near-deadline" cooldown seems better. Kind of make it exponential (anti-exponential?) until it reaches deadline (where it obviously posts the final votecount, says the day is over and posts who gets lynched).
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Right, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to post it again if nothing had changed. I guess what I meant was:
if (((currentTime - lastVoteCount) == 2 hours) && newVote){ postVoteCount(); }
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Yeah exactly that.
Anyways, still need some help with the whole "Normal/Newbie roles used differently in different games" thing to actually determine how to create the initial setups.
Alternative we can all determine a standard of Normal/Newbie roles so every host should use them
Mostly because "normal" roles don't really need that much flexibility to enhance a mafia game. For instance it won't kill a game if Framers are never allowed to frame a scumbuddy of theirs, even if a host for some reason wants to do it.
EDIT: Another example would be that players that are RBed should always be notified of being RBed, and players that were shot (but survived) should always be notified about it.
If one host decides to not notify RBed people....it's not that much of a deal, and won't "change the game", specially if the game is Normal/Newbie and the game mechanics/setup speculation are not heavy parts of the game (in contrast with themed games).
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I just think there should be a few options that should be available to be checked. Maybe options for a specific role, or maybe options for the game as a whole.
Gimme a bit to throw together a quick example of what I'm imagining.
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Is any of you like a super awesome expert Computer Science mayor that knows everything about everything in terms of development and programming?
Cause I'd like to have some discussions about certain things about the development of this system later on.
It's not urgent so doesn't matter that much (if you don't have time). If you are interested though then contact me.
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EPT
