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@ iamp
Welcome! As distinguishable as you are, that's not the only thing we're looking for in a party leader. I'd prefer someone with a very strong track-record of accurate D1 town reads. You're definitely someone that can be read early and be a party candidate though.
@ Kei
You're right, he is capable of pulling off big plays as scum, even day 1. But it's not like I'm giving him a town read already, nor do I plan to vote him until I do. I'm paranoid as fuck when it comes to him, but again, I'm much more confident in my ability to read him than I am any of the other vets, purely because I am extremely familiar with how marv thinks and acts.
Err... but you said...
On November 21 2012 12:14 Keirathi wrote:
--Quote Pyramid Omitted--
I said I would vote marv, barring a scummy vibe from him. And, yes, I feel I have a decent grasp of when marv is acting scummy. The key is, though, that I thoroughly trust marv's ability to make town reads. In the event that he is scum, though, even a scum marv can't afford to pick other scum without some damn good reasoning that they are town, which I believe could be seen through.
Do explain good sir.
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On November 21 2012 13:22 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:17 Hapahauli wrote:@ KeiYou're right, he is capable of pulling off big plays as scum, even day 1. But it's not like I'm giving him a town read already, nor do I plan to vote him until I do. I'm paranoid as fuck when it comes to him, but again, I'm much more confident in my ability to read him than I am any of the other vets, purely because I am extremely familiar with how marv thinks and acts. Err... but you said... On November 21 2012 12:14 Keirathi wrote:
--Quote Pyramid Omitted--
I said I would vote marv, barring a scummy vibe from him. And, yes, I feel I have a decent grasp of when marv is acting scummy. The key is, though, that I thoroughly trust marv's ability to make town reads. In the event that he is scum, though, even a scum marv can't afford to pick other scum without some damn good reasoning that they are town, which I believe could be seen through. Do explain good sir. What is there to explain? Both of those things you bolded say the exact same thing :o
1) "I'm not going to vote marv unless I have a town read on him."
2) "I'm going to vote someone unless he's giving me a 'scummy vibe.'"
Those two statements mean very different things. The first expresses reservation - that you're not going to vote someone UNLESS you have a town read on them. The second expresses no hesitancy - that you're vote is determined unless marv shows you otherwise.
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@ GK
Ah that makes sense. I'm still don't care for such early D1 town reads, but that's just my own attitude and nothing to hold you accountable for.
@ Z-Bo
On November 21 2012 13:25 Z-BosoN wrote:
Oh-oh Kei. That's not something you just go ahead and say to sir. Hapa the interpretator. That guy is such a proser.
Ok ok I know I super-tunneled you that one game based on stupid wordings and such, but this one seems a lot more clear-cut no? Like those two statements do not mean the same thing at all.
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Now now let's not jump on poor 'ol Dienosore - he just wants to be friendly is all =)
How goes it Dieno? Other than your fluffiness and cuteness, what will you bring to the town as party leader?
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On November 21 2012 13:31 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:25 Hapahauli wrote:
1) "I'm not going to vote marv unless I have a town read on him."
2) "I'm going to vote someone unless he's giving me a 'scummy vibe.'"
Those two statements mean very different things. The first expresses reservation - that you're not going to vote someone UNLESS you have a town read on them. The second expresses no hesitancy - that you're vote is determined unless marv shows you otherwise. Okay, I guess I see what you're getting at. Just poor wording on my part, I guess. But really, there is no "neutral" ground for me when it comes to marv. Either I believe that he is town, or he is giving off scummy vibes that give me pause.
I still don't understand this. This implies that you would never be unsure about your read on marv - on D1 of all days.
Part of me has a really hard time believing that this is the same Kei as in GSL III - the one who was uber reluctant and helpless on D1 to make a read on anyone in the game.
On November 21 2012 13:32 iamperfection wrote:
also by the way i have a town read on Dienosore no nooby scum gonna come in here like that.
Yeah Dieno has to be town. I know I semi-attacked GK for similar reads but hell, I can't resist.
He's so cuddly.
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On November 21 2012 13:51 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:49 iamperfection wrote:
as much as i would love stay up with you fine chaps it is past my bed time
For those who have played with me before comment on me.
you know i have an easy town meta to read so say what you already know to be true iamperfection should be on the team Quit asking for people to read you and play naturally. You did that shit in GSL 3, where you specifically asked me to give a read of you since I am very good at picking up when you are town or not. Just don't.
He's just campaigning to be party-leader // party-member atm - nothing he's doing is remotely out of line or "annoying."
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On November 21 2012 14:05 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:51 Hapahauli wrote:On November 21 2012 13:31 Keirathi wrote:On November 21 2012 13:25 Hapahauli wrote:
1) "I'm not going to vote marv unless I have a town read on him."
2) "I'm going to vote someone unless he's giving me a 'scummy vibe.'"
Those two statements mean very different things. The first expresses reservation - that you're not going to vote someone UNLESS you have a town read on them. The second expresses no hesitancy - that you're vote is determined unless marv shows you otherwise. Okay, I guess I see what you're getting at. Just poor wording on my part, I guess. But really, there is no "neutral" ground for me when it comes to marv. Either I believe that he is town, or he is giving off scummy vibes that give me pause. I still don't understand this. This implies that you would never be unsure about your read on marv - on D1 of all days. Part of me has a really hard time believing that this is the same Kei as in GSL III - the one who was uber reluctant and helpless on D1 to make a read on anyone in the game. It doesn't imply that I would never be unsure of my read on marv at all. I'm much more likely to be paranoid towards marv when he says something fishy (aka 'scummy vibes') than I am for someone like kush, because I know town kush can say really stupid things (no offense kush <3). And, if you remember, day 1 in GSL 3 was a nightmare for me IRL. I had a ton of family shit going on, and I was playing 90% of the game from my phone, which meant I wasn't able to go filter diving, or even devote very much time to the game. I'm not averse to making comfortable day 1 reads, but I generally make them really conservatively. Conservative reads + no time to play meant I was useless.
Oh you're totes right on GSL III - completely forgot.
Well I still don't understand the marv thing, but I don't think it makes you scummy.
And that is my cue to hit the sack - gnite!
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On November 21 2012 14:06 Z-BosoN wrote:@HapaRegarding the whole Keir deal, I'm not sure what to make of it yet. I think you are just diving in too deep though... thechronicle sums it up pretty nicely: Show nested quote +Think marv is town = will vote
Thinks marv is scum = will not vote
Unsure of marv = will not vote
You're not considering the possibility of #3 in your reasoning. You're saying Keir will have the confidence, but he hasn't said that at all. I don't think that from he posts he necessarily gives off the impression of confidence.
Bah you sniped me. I honestly still don't understand it, but doesn't make Kei scummy. In fact I think he's falling more into his town meta, especially with him snapping at iamperfection the way he did. Not a strong read, but one I'm comfortable with for now.
Meanwhile, sir Hapa, While we are here, gathered and proud. You stated earlier that the main criteria for our party leader resides in him being a strong town leader. While I agree that is ideal, your view is in contrast to mine. Have you read this post? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=20#384Do you agree with my logic? I really think we should focus on a strong - yet easy to pin down - player. This makes sense, even because it is difficult to find a strong player that has a strong townie read on them, as most of the strong players are not so easy to make a solid enough read day one. Let me know what you think.
We completely agree with each other no? I'm sure I've mentioned multiple times that my ideal player is a meta-transparent player with a strong track record as town.
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Holy cripes 25 pages to catch up on TT
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Oh uh CaveJohnson is the topic du jour? I'll get to that.
In other news, I'm pretty sure Kei is town at this point. He seems to care about the thread, though he can do that as either alignment. However, what convinces me he's town is a post he made towards iamperfection:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=23#458
At this point in the game, he was under fire from myself and Z-Boson for a "contradiction" in his attitude on marv. In this position, it's not a natural impulse for scum to go and antagonize another player. Scum here want to buddy people instead of picking other fights. Not only does it go against a general mentality of mafia, but it goes against the more "cooperative" mafia-meta that Kei has.
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On November 22 2012 08:19 strongandbig wrote:
...
As far as I can tell, there are three "real" campaigns (real meaning the candidate actually intends to get elected) - Sandroba, Syllogism, and Toad.
All three campaigns are based around the fundamental premise "i'm a vet, i'm town, i have good reads, and i'm self confident enough to take responsibility for my actions."
Unless I've missed something, that's pretty much 100% of syllogism's campaign.
Sandroba has his "get some noobs semi confirmed" thing
Toad says he'll talk a lot
Out of those, I gotta say Sandroba's got the lead on talking points, so I have questions for the other two:
Syllogism, it's been a pretty long time since you started your campaign. You said you weren't going to lock yourself in to your party or whatever early, but do you have anything more for us by now? Or is it 100% that you're running because you know you're town and you're still not sure of Sandroba?
Toad, why do you need to be the party leader to do that stuff you were saying you would do about getting people to talk about reads, and putting yourself under scrutiny so we get a better read on you? Shouldn't you be doing all that anyway, and why is it a campaign point?
Oooh that's a helpful summary - thanks for that!
At this point I could vote Syllo or Sandro. I wouldn't touch Toad with a stick at this point - I remember in LVII he pitched himself as a player that was really hard to read. I generally find that true about his gameplay, and that's something I don't want in a potential leader.
Something just rubs me the wrong way about his early posts. His entire campaign is just "trust me! I'll take responsibility for what I do! I'll be more active" Who cares? None of those are valid reasons to elect someone at all. It reads like an emotional mafia ploy to get votes rather than someone who genuinely thinks they're best for the job.
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On November 21 2012 18:05 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 17:50 goodkarma wrote:Nice to play with you again Toadesstern  . There were a few things you mentioned I would like to briefly touch up on and then I'm really going to bed... On November 21 2012 17:09 Toadesstern wrote:This Keirathi guy is mafia. Not because of what he's saying but because of what he's failing to provide: Reasoning as to why he'd post what he did so far. There's simply no reason to get out here and tell people he's planning to heavily focus on reading one guy. Best case scenario is him being pointless, worst case scenario is him trying to look good by providing "something" while actually being pointless. I'd say we've got someone who's trying to get a cheap backdoor exit early on. That being said I plan on becomming leader d1. Vote for me please :3I plan on sending people I trust to be town. Especially my townreads are pretty awesome and I have an easy time picking up townreads early on so I'd say this job is the right job for me. That being said I will not send people some kind of "majority" thinks I should send. I will send people I myself consider to be town and nothing else. That probably sounds stupid to those people who are new to this game but that's how these things are going. Don't listen to people telling you they will listen to some majority-decided group they will nominate if they get to be leader. Vote for someone who's willing and comfortable enough to make a decision on his own instead of trying to dodge the responsibility but wants to be leader for whatever reason nonetheless. I know it sounds awesome to have people telling you that your voice will be heard and everyone can hold hands and decide on the group together but that's just meaningless smooth-talk. You've got your vote. You vote for the leader, not more and not less. Everything else is in the hand of the guy in charge. That's how you influence this outcome and it's enough. More than that just makes it way to likely for people to be influenced. I will obviously only vote for someone I trust to be able to get good reads d1 himself in combination with a townread on said guy (duh). Having someone who's just going to roll a dice to determine who's going on the mission is not going to help us and let's face it, there's people who are at face value with rolling a dice, at least on d1. Vote me pretty please! What you're saying here seems perfectly reasonable to me. However, I still feel it's important that you provide your candidates you wish to bring to the party before people make a vote for you. We can't just vote for you because you're a vet that will perform well for us if you're town... On November 21 2012 17:13 Toadesstern wrote:
Oh and I forgot: Yeah we need to find someone to send d1 and that's all nice and fine but I don't think it's a good way to keep the talk all focused on only that.
Faking townreads as mafias is incredibly easy. Faking mafiareads as mafia is something that takes effort. If we're only going to talk about who we're going to send d1 we're giving mafia an incredibly easy time skating by.
I know it feels counterintuitive as clearly the shortterm "goal" is to send a good guy d1 but I think we should try and balance those issues out. After all, the goal in the longrun is to figure people out and we won't be able to do that by playing nice all day long. This is a very interesting point. But keep in mind that since lynching at the very least isn't commonplace, it might be possible for scum to deliberately bus themselves even early to gain some town credit and not get hurt that badly. Like maybe they spend their scumhunting time repeatedly picking on hypothetical scumperson A for half the game until he finally gets lynched. They go out looking townie, and don't have to worry about getting lynched again for a very long time... I'm still not convinced that focusing on lynchings as the primary means for town victory is best in this setup. Also, while faking scumreads on town is the standard task for scum in normal games, I'm thinking that faking townreads on scum as scum is going to be their focus this game. It will be easier for them to "blend in" doing this perhaps, but it should still be possible to find them, especially when a particular event outcome goes poorly. I still see this as the inverse of a normal game, where townreads are the priority. Scumreads may follow based on an unexpected vote.outcome to some extent, but only insofar as knowing whose opinions can be most trusted.for selecting the next party leader. I'm going to adress the 2.5 major points shortly:Yes I'm going to give you an idea of who I'm considering. I don't know what it's going to be like and I can't promise wether I'll call my exact team early but I'll give reads. I will try and explain the reasoning of the reads and what you're supposed to look into is that reasoning and not the reads themselves. I don't want you to only look at the results of my reads, I want you to look at my and everyone elses train of thought. That's the interessting part. Yes scum can bus themselves but that will lead to mistakes due to confirmation bias. That's the reason it's hard for mafia to fake reads in general. They know they are right or they know that they're wrong so they're approaching the situation completly different. And again, that's what you want to look into. If someone calls someone mafia but isn't able to give reasoning as to why he thinks so or if you think his reasoning is bad your alarmclocks should be ringing. And lastly yes I agree, mafias will most likely try and blend in by pointing out easy to do reads. That is just another reason why we shouldn't let people skate by doing nothing but delivering some weak reads as to why someone is supposed to be town. After all you're going to be right in most cases even if you roll a dice all the time due to the nature of alignment distribution, right? Picking out mafias is harder and is the standard by what we should be judging people.
To clarify my opinion of Toad, I wanted to address the bolded point above. It's wrong. Or rather, it's likely wrong in this particular game format.
In this game, mafia's goal isn't simply to sit around and try not to look like the scummiest person in the thread. Mafia's win-con is probably heavily weighted to the success and failure of the missions that we run as town. They want to be elected onto parties, and as a result, their goal is to look as townie as possible rather than simply blend in.
So when I see toad post something like this, and then talk about how he'll "be more active" and "will take responsibility" - those are talking points I'd expect a mafia would use.
Long story short, don't vote Toad. Even if you see eye-to-eye with me, he's a hard guy to read anyway - there's no way we'll have significant hints toward his alignment on D1.
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EBWOP: Even if you DON'T see eye-to-eye with me, he's a hard guy to read anyway - there's no way we'll have significant hints toward his alignment on D1.
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So I take it you agree with me on Toad then?
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On November 22 2012 09:41 sandroba wrote:I just woke up and there is 20 more pages, I'll respond to stuff as I read: Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 00:01 goodkarma wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 sandroba wrote:
I wouldn't mind syllo being leader either and if I win I will give him veto power over the people I choose. I'm fairly certain he is town at this point. I found this particular quote to be upsetting. I understand, on the one hand, if you have a town read on syllo. But I don't understand why you would be willing to go so far as to allow him to veto your picks. If you're not that confident in your choices, you should as well just have him pick for you... Or better yet, let him be party leader. As current "frontrunner" I would like a response from you on this scandal. Are you looking to concede and have syllo run in your stead, or was this merely an assertion that you are super-confident syllo is town? I'm very confident he is town. We talk about reads and games constantly in skype when we are not playing in it, and we get better results when we work toghether I believe.
Is there a reason you consider him so townie? I'm thinking of voting you or him myself, so any reasoning you could provide would help.
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@ Sandro
On November 22 2012 10:31 sandroba wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 09:49 Hapahauli wrote:On November 22 2012 09:41 sandroba wrote:I just woke up and there is 20 more pages, I'll respond to stuff as I read: On November 22 2012 00:01 goodkarma wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 sandroba wrote:
I wouldn't mind syllo being leader either and if I win I will give him veto power over the people I choose. I'm fairly certain he is town at this point. I found this particular quote to be upsetting. I understand, on the one hand, if you have a town read on syllo. But I don't understand why you would be willing to go so far as to allow him to veto your picks. If you're not that confident in your choices, you should as well just have him pick for you... Or better yet, let him be party leader. As current "frontrunner" I would like a response from you on this scandal. Are you looking to concede and have syllo run in your stead, or was this merely an assertion that you are super-confident syllo is town? I'm very confident he is town. We talk about reads and games constantly in skype when we are not playing in it, and we get better results when we work toghether I believe. Is there a reason you consider him so townie? I'm thinking of voting you or him myself, so any reasoning you could provide would help. I believe I gave a brief sumary to marv already some 20 pages ago. I've played and talked with him a lot and I'm pretty sure I can tell. We often discuss games toghether so I know what's up with his thought process.
Hm ok, I'll look through some of syllo's stuff and see if I agree.
Also, thoughts on my thoughts on Toad?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=52#1024
@ Kita
As much as I enjoy flag-waving turkey's, running a joke campaign doesn't help town here. Do you actually believe Sandro/Syllo/etc aren't good candidates?
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On November 22 2012 10:43 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 08:09 Hapahauli wrote:Oh uh CaveJohnson is the topic du jour? I'll get to that.
In other news, I'm pretty sure Kei is town at this point. He seems to care about the thread, though he can do that as either alignment. However, what convinces me he's town is a post he made towards iamperfection: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=23#458At this point in the game, he was under fire from myself and Z-Boson for a "contradiction" in his attitude on marv. In this position, it's not a natural impulse for scum to go and antagonize another player. Scum here want to buddy people instead of picking other fights. Not only does it go against a general mentality of mafia, but it goes against the more "cooperative" mafia-meta that Kei has. Maybe your meta read is right after me playing one game as scum ever, but on the off chance that it's not, wouldn't it make sense for me as scum to be less willing to give out town reads, especially on someone I generally find pretty easy to read correctly as the game goes on? If I was scum and he was town, it would be in my best interest to keep him on the table as a potential scum candidate as long as possible, no?
Well it has nothing to do with your stance on iamperfection - it's your willingness to pick a fight with him when you were in a vulnerable position. That, to me, isn't a scum instinct.
The argument certainly could be made that you're trying to deflect attention, or that it was "forced," or whatever, but I don't see it in that post.
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@ Z-Bo
No strong feelings on Acro. Sure he's aggressive, but I don't know enough about his general tendencies towards aggression to call it. Without a specific meta read, aggression is something that can be done by town or scum
@ Sandroba
I think you're missing my point on Toad. My contention isn't that he's "trying to appear townie" - that's no doubt a pretty stupid reason to suspect someone. My issue is that his campaign focuses on things like "decisiveness" and "activity," which are fairly bad reasons to think someone is a good party leader, let alone sufficient reasons to think someone is town.
@ Kita
Well it's hard to take you seriously when you accuse your competitors of being "vegetarians." What makes you a superior candidate over Syllo and Sandrob? Give us the cliffs.
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@ Sandro
On November 22 2012 11:13 sandroba wrote:
@hapa uh sure, I wouldn't want toad as party leader either, if that's your point.
Pretty much.
@ Z-Bo
On November 22 2012 11:13 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 11:10 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Z-Bo
No strong feelings on Acro. Sure he's aggressive, but I don't know enough about his general tendencies towards aggression to call it. Without a specific meta read, aggression is something that can be done by town or scum
@ Sandroba
I think you're missing my point on Toad. My contention isn't that he's "trying to appear townie" - that's no doubt a pretty stupid reason to suspect someone. My issue is that his campaign focuses on things like "decisiveness" and "activity," which are fairly bad reasons to think someone is a good party leader, let alone sufficient reasons to think someone is town.
@ Kita
Well it's hard to take you seriously when you accuse your competitors of being "vegetarians." What makes you a superior candidate over Syllo and Sandrob? Give us the cliffs. Definitely, but his kind seems to me like pointless agression. Like, what are the town motivations for the post I'm referring to above? It doesn't make any sense to me and I really don't get it.
Well we can wait for him to give an answer, but I'm not sold that it's completely "pointless." Criticizing someone's logic in'st a fruitless exercise and is pretty common. Hell townies picking fights for pointless reasons isn't all that uncommon.
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@ Kita
Strongly disagree with your analysis on iamperfection. His town meta involves plenty of those spammy one-liners. He's someone I'd strongly consider as a D1 option since his scum/town meta is pretty distinguishable. His play is leaning towards his townie side for sure right now.
I do agree with your assessment on kush, but for different reasons though. He's said that he doesn't care about who gets voted in for leader, which is pretty questionable. He also posted early that he was lost, confused, and had no reads. Then recently, he seems pretty adamant about lynching nl_Clarity.
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EPT
