Keirathi, here's the post I made yesterday in response to BH's case about Adam.
On November 02 2012 00:32 strongandbig wrote:
Just read through his filter a couple of times, it's not very long.
K, here's one thing - he starts off with his "meta argument" on BKE, but then drops the read for no reason when he moves on to mementoss. Later, he says "BKE isn't scum to him," I would very much like to know what in BKE's filter gave him that impression because (as I outlined in my previous post) BKE's filter looks pretty terrible to me, and the worst parts are the parts that came after Adam's "meta read".
Mementoss case, I find pretty unpersuasive, I think that comparing pre-game and in-game enthusiasm levels is a valid tactic. "Not posting much of value" or "not having strong opinions" can be a decent case to make if it's clear and pronounced but it's hardly unique to Mementoss at the moment, I would contend that BKE, Djagulingu, maybe hopeless also fall into that category.
Oh, something else - he promises very early on to be like super active, but he is far less active than many other people.
Putting the shoe on the other foot, however, his claims about the meta component to your case are pretty compelling. Qualifying that - I know your case is not mainly based on meta anymore. Really, however, unless you disagree with him that his more recent games are different from your claim about his meta, it should be recognized that that element of the case on him is weak.
Something else you argue - he did originally take a position against BKE and later backtrack on it. Though I've said above that I don't understand why he backtracked, and though I really want to hear his reasoning, and though I think it's scummy to backtrack from one position and jump on another one without explaining yourself, I do think that at least taking a position is better than not taking a position, even if there is scummy backtracking.
After this post, Adam has posted a few more times. Most of the "word volume" in there was in a couple of big posts about Gonzaw's vote on Mementoss. The main thing is a connection theory, I guess, based on the argument "mementoss is scum, gonzaw withheld his vote on mementoss until he was sure that it wouldn't get mementoss lynched."
The problem with this is - I find his mementoss case not compelling, but he's still using it as the basis to build theories.
(that said - his gonzaw stuff is actually pretty interesting. Regardless of mementoss's alignment, it is pretty odd how Gonzaw withheld his vote like that. Even without the connection theory, there could be scum motivation there - maybe Gonzaw felt obligated to vote mementoss given his earlier posts, but didn't want to be held responsible for voting a townie?)
Then there's this post from Adam, which is scummy as all fuck IMO:
On November 02 2012 17:43 Adam4167 wrote: And as I have said, if you would like my opinion on a specific player, then simply ask. I do not post my thoughts for the sake of just posting as I find it needlessly inflates the thread.
If I was someone else thinking 'damn this Adam guy is scum' I'd be wrong, since he's not.
like a few things - "I don't post thoughts for the sake of just posting," if he was Gonzaw then this would be a valid sentiment but from the vast majority of players, more thread presence as a townie makes it easier to establish your innocence and helps the town.
Second, "if you want me to talk about anyone specific then ask" - I could be going against popular opinion here, but I think that while trying to get specific players to talk about each other is a townie thing to do - well, at least if you choose the two players correctly - I don't think just going "If you push me on something then I'll talk about it, but otherwise I'm gonna keep my mouth shut" is a very town thing to do.
On November 03 2012 04:12 gonzaw wrote: S&B you know that just saying "give me points" is not that convincing? If you don't tell us what those points do or how they work then we can't know shit how you will use them.
If you are scum you can easily tell everybody to "give you points" and then keep them or do something anti-town with it and we would never know about it. It could even be a ruse and, like the show states, the points don't matter and you are making a big deal out of it just to spread confusion.
It's unlikely but it's possible, and I can't know if that's what's happening or not
I will tell you tomorrow exactly what I did with the points.
However, I will not tell you in advance - the reason why should be pretty obvious.
I think I've been pretty open and engaged with the thread, and the only reasons not to give me points are if you think you can do better with them or if you think that I'm scum. I don't think anyone can do better with them than I can, and I know I'm town and hope that other people know that as well.
Okay I've received enough points from Keirathi and one or more anonymous donors to ensure that I will not die tonight. Remember, the more you give, the more hurt we can put on the scums!
but in all seriousness - I've thought about this a lot and I'm pretty much sure that giving me points is the optimal move for town.
I'm unsure about whether people should claim giving points in the thread. On the one hand, plausible deniability could be an asset later. On the other hand, if a lot of people claim giving points in the thread, it could put pressure on scum to do the same, which would be sick and awesome.
If you decide to give points publicly, you should do so using ##give points. That way we know that you're not just lying and saying you gave points, and taking credit for an anonymous donation. I can confirm however that I received an increment of 500 points, and since no one other than keirathi has claimed it yet I am pretty sure it was actually from him.
Okay guys. I'll try to get into the innuendo thing in future posts, but this post is gonna be pretty utilitarian.
I promised I would tell you what I did with your points last night. I would call it a "mixed success."
On the one hand, I didn't get to do bad things to scum. However, on the other hand, scum didn't successfully do any bad things to the town.
I used the points to activate two powers: a Tracker on Adam and a Veteran on myself. I didn't have enough points to use anything more powerful than tracker while keeping myself alive.
I was roleblocked, so I did not get any information from the Track. I half expected this might happen, since I had been telling people I could do something with points. However, putting the points together still helped us out quite a bit - if you notice, there were no townies killed last night. I'm pretty sure that the main reason for this is that I soaked a shot with the veteran power I used last night.
So all in all, I think this was a success.
We can talk about what to do with more points tonight. For now, let's find the scum and give them the old in-you-end(o).
On November 04 2012 01:00 Chezinu wrote: Btw, this game is dead.
That's what she told you last night, right?
(you should really stop calling it "the game" btw - it's not making anyone want to play with it.)
Anyway Chezinu you know what would make this thread less dead? If you would say things that actually participate in it.
How about answering one or more of the questions I asked you yesterday? Preferably the ones about explaining your positions/stances so far in the game?
Here's the post - it's in alphabetspeak but whatever.
now I have to post a whole bunch of sentences. Or else I could change my post. Post-changing is lame however. Querelously, therefore, I sit down to type this spoiler. Really, there's nothing interesting in here. Sitting in this chair. Typing things that aren't important. Ummm, what to say next... Very well, I will continue. Waiting to get to the start of the alphabet, almost there... Xylophony! Yeah, that's the art of playing the xylophone! Zounds, I'm at the end of the alphabet, only two more sentences to go! Almost there! BLAMMO!
CHEZINU ARE YOU AROUND?!!?!? During the course of the games of yours I've played and observed, I don't think I've seen a time where asking you rational questions has actually helped, but in case I'm wrong or in case there's a first time for everything, let's give you a range of options of things you can talk rationally about. Enumerated herein are things that I would really like you to talk more about so I can discern your alignment:
First, you've pretty much dropped your role claim idea without ever explaining why it was a good idea beyond listing all the players. Grant for the sake of argument that I'm stupid, explain to me why that's a good idea. Huh, when I look at your filter this is pretty much the only thing I see you talking about that's neither fluff nor the minigame.
2: I see you have voted for Mementoss; I kind of despair of getting you to explain yourself, since you were already asked directly once and responded only "I don't know," but for the sake of completeness I will herein ask you once again to actually explain that ninja vote please.
Jeepers, you probably won't respond to either of those questions so here are some serious questions phrased in a way that might be more likely to garner a response from you:
Kay, take a look at BKE. Let me know the ideal job for him as a menial domestic employee in Chezinu's House.
Maybe talk a little bit about your spirit animal. Now suppose it has to fight the spirit animal of anyone in this game, whose spirit animal would your spirit animal fight and why?
One last question - if you had to choose a game from Whose Line is it Anyway for everyone to play, what would it be and how would it help the House of Chezinu achieve victory in its endeavors?
Please, if you refuse to answer any of these questions, just say more things - it seems like you're around but your filter is tiny and purposely vague and impossible to get a good impression of whether you're town or not.
Anyway I'm taking a look at Mementoss's filter, since there's momentum building quickly towards his lynch and I want to be sure whether I agree with it.
Yesterday I pushed pretty hard against the case on Mementoss. I'm definitely not the only one who though it was terrible, and there were a bunch of things that made me feel that way. The strongest point in the case yesterday was a "general feeling that Mementoss was being wishy-washy and non-committal" - some of the specific points were just pretty bad, like the stuff about Mementoss's change in targets from crossfire to Keirathi, and I thought we had several more likely scum candidates. Combine that with the fact that Chezinu had voted Mementoss for essentially no reason, and that my top scum read BKE was pushing for a Mementoss lynch, and my thinking yesterday was that Mementoss would be a mislynch.
This Gonzaw vote stuff seems pretty convincing, however. One point worth noting - Gonzaw used his time-out as a reason not to vote until later, but iGrok specifically said earlier in the game that you can still vote during time-out. I can't really see any reason for Gonzaw to have voted the way he did other than that he felt stuck voting for Mementoss but didn't actually want him to get lynched.
So with those two points in mind - yesterday I thought Mementoss would be a mislynch, today there's some compelling new evidence - I'm taking a much closer read through Mementoss's filter. The Gonzaw vote evidence by itself is compelling, but it's not sufficient for me to vote on if Mementoss's filter really does look townie; Gonzaw can't have known he would get vigged, but if he was being really clever he could have preparing for his own potential future lynch, trying to leave evidence in his filter falsely incriminating a townie. So what I'm looking for is other evidence of a scum mindset, scum motivation, etcetera in Mementoss's own posts.
On October 31 2012 11:38 Blazinghand wrote: Love to. My reason is that at this point in the thread he is the scummiest. "No way," you say, "he hasn't posted yet!" Often, that is reason enough. Proof of his scumminess is that he is a general liability.
Quack is the sound ducks make. Really though I'm gonna change my vote to Adam there's no way that post is town. Seriously if he was reforming posts he'd reform his post into that post instead of making a complaining post. Trying to get cred when he deserves none. Untie!
(1) Going to gym, fuck the rules. Only got 5 minutes but would like to comment on a few things.
The above is your case against Adam right? I don't consider it the strongest case, as you above seem pretty confident in it, but the fact that he hasn't been back to contribute is pretty un easing. leaning scummy on him right now.
I half agree to what you say about crossfire too blazinghand. His posts were unreadable thats for sure. I had to re-read several paragraphs 3 times before I even understood what the point was, and then it didn't even deliverable the point well -_-. (2) This is more likely xfire posting as town because he was being ridiculous, but I also think there is a possibility he started posting these long unreadable fluffy statements, so that maybe someone else would follow his ridiculous posting style and muck up the town completely. Thats scum intereference. Also, he actually looks to the non-reader, that he is contributing more than most, when really, hes more interested in literary skills and looking town, than actually finding scum.
ATM I would be happy to vote either Xfire or BKE, (which I stated earlier why I thought his fake joke stuff seemed scummy, while his purposely?? getting restrictions wasn't liekly scummy), could go for Adam too, but I would rather wait for him to come into the thread again before doing that.
Gunna lay down a vote Xfire atm. Need to re-read the thread and consider all the options, I have been either asleep or at work for this whole thread thus far.
##Vote Crossfire
(1) There's the change in opinion about whether or not it's scummy for people to mess up the minigame. I know that changes in opinion to follow the current town consensus can be a scum trait, but I kind of went through a similar thought process. So this is a point to consider but I'm not convinced by it.
(2) I could read this as coming from scum, regardless of what crossfire's alignment actually is. The actual argument, "crossfire is posting a lot of illegible bullshit to muck up town," is a legitimate one. However, he starts the paragraph where he makes his best argument to justify his vote with "this is more likely xfire posting as town". This doesn't feel like something a townie would do to me - if a townie genuinely was unsure or leaning town on crossfire's alignment, they wouldn't drop a vote, and if they were sure enough to drop a vote, they wouldn't start off by saying "well this person is probably town, but..." The scum motivation to do this, on the other hand, is (a) if crossfire is town, to give him some wiggle room later if he gets blamed for lynching a townie, or (b) if crossfire is scum, to establish some distancing while setting himself up to unvote and remove the pressure later.
Then he makes a giant case on Keirathi, which I've put in a spoiler on account of its length:
Okay so some preface, I think Keirathi has been slipping through this game without being mentioned too much. So I decided to look at his filter and noticed some scummy things. Lets go through it.
Part I: Spreading Accusations
All game, Keirethi has been spreading accusations very very subtly while never going deeper into them, he has yet to give a strong opinion that he thinks would be good for a lynch. Overall, hes looking active while not doing anything to push a scum lynch. His play seems to represent someone that doesn't care who gets lynched at all. Lets look at a couple examples of this:
On November 01 2012 03:38 Keirathi wrote: 'Kay, so how is my question to Chezinu unimportant? Looks to me like he wanted all of our blues to claim. Maybe its just me, having never played with Chezinu, but that was a pretty anti-town plan.
Now, I did comment on the BKE thing. On its own, its not particularly scummy. Particularly, though, the fact that he hasn't done any kind of early pressure vote in any of his last 7 town games is a bit weird. Still, even then I only think its minorly scummy and would never be enough to make me vote him.
His questions at chezinu seem to hint that he thinks what he is doing is scummy and pushing scum agenda, yet he just calls him ut on an anti town plan and never follows up.
He says on its own its not scummy, than hints that his meta doesn't match so its a bit "weird". Never commits completely to his opinion on thinking hes scummy, but ends with scummy but not enough to vote him. Gives him an out if he flips red, that he didn't defend him he just couldnt make up his mind.
On October 31 2012 23:13 Mementoss wrote: Nooooo chezinu ninjad me good thing I checked, I cant do the alphabet very well I have to say it completely out all the time lol. Oh, I agree with that fact that purposely fucking up is scummy because it gives you a free pass not to post, however, BKE seemed to be not understanding the rules at first, and the second time the posts were 3 min apart so its possible for ninja post. Poop, just to clarify this doesn't excuse his ridiuclous joke vote/call out on a "scum slip", it seemed like a desperate attempt to put fault on someone, but he fucked up with the rules. Qonsequently BKE, so far is the only player that stands out to me as somewhat scummy.
Reading chezinus last post, I still don't agree with the mass claim idea. Sit will still end up with everyone claiming audience memebers. Tangerine, chezinu, why do you feeld it was nessecary to give the player list :S ?
On November 01 2012 06:08 Mementoss wrote:
On October 31 2012 11:38 Blazinghand wrote: Love to. My reason is that at this point in the thread he is the scummiest. "No way," you say, "he hasn't posted yet!" Often, that is reason enough. Proof of his scumminess is that he is a general liability.
Quack is the sound ducks make. Really though I'm gonna change my vote to Adam there's no way that post is town. Seriously if he was reforming posts he'd reform his post into that post instead of making a complaining post. Trying to get cred when he deserves none. Untie!
Going to gym, fuck the rules. Only got 5 minutes but would like to comment on a few things.
The above is your case against Adam right? I don't consider it the strongest case, as you above seem pretty confident in it, but the fact that he hasn't been back to contribute is pretty un easing. leaning scummy on him right now.
I half agree to what you say about crossfire too blazinghand. His posts were unreadable thats for sure. I had to re-read several paragraphs 3 times before I even understood what the point was, and then it didn't even deliverable the point well -_-. This is more likely xfire posting as town because he was being ridiculous, but I also think there is a possibility he started posting these long unreadable fluffy statements, so that maybe someone else would follow his ridiculous posting style and muck up the town completely. Thats scum intereference. Also, he actually looks to the non-reader, that he is contributing more than most, when really, hes more interested in literary skills and looking town, than actually finding scum.
ATM I would be happy to vote either Xfire or BKE, (which I stated earlier why I thought his fake joke stuff seemed scummy, while his purposely?? getting restrictions wasn't liekly scummy), could go for Adam too, but I would rather wait for him to come into the thread again before doing that.
Gunna lay down a vote Xfire atm. Need to re-read the thread and consider all the options, I have been either asleep or at work for this whole thread thus far.
##Vote Crossfire
Xtremely weird change of opinion, there. You go from saying its scummy to blatantly not follow the alphabet rules, to doing it yourself without any indication why you suddenly don't care anymore. Zero sense does that make.
Again says its weird, not scummy. Just says it makes zero sense. Keirathi has zero desire to get a lynch going today, and he is afraid to commit. Hes leaving himself many avenues open for later when he decides to vote.
On November 01 2012 06:55 Blazinghand wrote: gonzaw-- I'm willing to buy that you did in fact read my post, just not very carefully.
On November 01 2012 01:22 Blazinghand wrote: The game is fine and all, and if you want to banter and go back and forth, do it. But the terrible lobstrosity of a post that crossfire puked into the thread is the kind of thing that doesn't help. There are times to break the rules. In a way, chezinu knows this better than anyone here, but hes too busy being chezinu to lead town.
breaking the rules is not a scum move, any more than simply not posting for an hour is a scum move. tons of people have 1+ hour gaps in between their craptacularly bad alphabetical posts-- you should just make decent, good posts instead if you're not in the middle of a conversation.
I don't know how this seems to be dogmatically in favor of using the 1-hour wait method at all times or the rhyming method at all times. You should read my posts more clearly and think a bit harder about the game. Part of the reason I'm on your ass is that you're not playing like you normally do. This focus from you, and the lack of serious pressure on multiple targets, that's not like you. The gonzaw I know, when he plays town, has fullisades of questions for everyone. Why just this one Keirathi case? Where's your usual constant interrogation and probing of everyone in the town? I remember your posts as being kinda annoying and having formatting issues, and maybe being unfocused, but also being unrelenting in their pressure on multiple targets. What gives?
Forgive me for not commenting on this sooner sooner, but I just now had the available time to do the research. Go back and look at Aperture 2. He literally made a case/accusation against EVERY SINGLE PLAYER day 1. Its just such a huge disconnect from "everyone is scummy, lets question/accuse them!" to "well, this one guy is kinda scummy because he hasn't posted as much as I expect him to". Just my opinion, but this doesn't really fit the town gonzaw that I remember either.
Again spreading some suspicion on gonzaw. Not saying hes scummy per sae but saying his meta doesn't fit aperature 2. And ALSO he doesn't mention that gonzaw was traitor in aperture 2, and he won with scum, so this meta doesn't even make sense. He doesn't follow up with in game evidence or even ask gonzaw to clarify anything. This brings me to my next point.
Part II - Doesn't fit the meta
Every game I have played with Keirathi he has been very active and has been a major part in pushing discussion. Even if hes not scumhunting hes pushing discussion in strategic ways. This game has been the very opposite. He is a commentator, active, without pushing discussion to actually find scum. That is all I have to say on this, because meta should just be a supportable part not the main part of a case.
Part III - Active Lurker
Keirathi has been actually quite active in this game at many times, however he has only put down a few lines every time he has been here, and choses not to discuss the current parts of the thread. He timeline seems to sprinkle at many times in the thread, indicating he is chosing not to contribute in his normal town manner, or he doesn't overly care about finding scum. Just to separate himself from the major lurkers in this game.
He also has been excessively lazy this game and making excuses.
On October 31 2012 12:44 Crossfire99 wrote: Gosh, what have we here?
On October 31 2012 12:22 Keirathi wrote: 'Sup, everyone. Time to get rid of those pesky musicians.
How have you not posted on what has happened so far? I seem to remember the talkative little townie in Aperature that wasn't afraid to comment on anything.
Keirathi was enjoying some Diablo 3 with a buddy. Looking back over the posts since I chimed it, it doesn't look like theres really a whole lot to comment on. Maybe its just me, but while this posting restriction is very entertaining, its quite hard to say exactly what you mean.
He is apathetic. He knows better than this, there is never gunna be anyting to comment on unless you push the discussion, which keirathi has not beeen trying to do like his normal town self. Making an excuse to blame the mechanics for not posting.
##Unvote ##Vote: Keirathi
[-]
Other stuff:
Alright so Im still not sure on crossfire, but I think there are more likely places to catch scum than him so im taking my vote off him. I can see what hes doing from both alignments, so I shouldn't make a solid choice on only that. His reaction didn't really lead me any further with more of an opinion on him.
Probably 2nd scummiest player imo is BKE, I agree with SnB on his thoughts on him.
Dingaling, is also an option but it would be strictly policy lynch at this point. I think he is more likely unactive than lurking.
When is deadline? 10 hours? We need to somewhat start consolidating or discussing your straight up two best scum reads asaply.
However, literally two posts later on in his filter, we go to this:
Okay so some preface, I think Keirathi has been slipping through this game without being mentioned too much. So I decided to look at his filter and noticed some scummy things. Lets go through it.
Part I: Spreading Accusations
All game, Keirethi has been spreading accusations very very subtly while never going deeper into them, he has yet to give a strong opinion that he thinks would be good for a lynch. Overall, hes looking active while not doing anything to push a scum lynch. His play seems to represent someone that doesn't care who gets lynched at all. Lets look at a couple examples of this:
On November 01 2012 03:38 Keirathi wrote: 'Kay, so how is my question to Chezinu unimportant? Looks to me like he wanted all of our blues to claim. Maybe its just me, having never played with Chezinu, but that was a pretty anti-town plan.
Now, I did comment on the BKE thing. On its own, its not particularly scummy. Particularly, though, the fact that he hasn't done any kind of early pressure vote in any of his last 7 town games is a bit weird. Still, even then I only think its minorly scummy and would never be enough to make me vote him.
His questions at chezinu seem to hint that he thinks what he is doing is scummy and pushing scum agenda, yet he just calls him ut on an anti town plan and never follows up.
He says on its own its not scummy, than hints that his meta doesn't match so its a bit "weird". Never commits completely to his opinion on thinking hes scummy, but ends with scummy but not enough to vote him. Gives him an out if he flips red, that he didn't defend him he just couldnt make up his mind.
On November 01 2012 14:00 Keirathi wrote:
On October 31 2012 23:13 Mementoss wrote: Nooooo chezinu ninjad me good thing I checked, I cant do the alphabet very well I have to say it completely out all the time lol. Oh, I agree with that fact that purposely fucking up is scummy because it gives you a free pass not to post, however, BKE seemed to be not understanding the rules at first, and the second time the posts were 3 min apart so its possible for ninja post. Poop, just to clarify this doesn't excuse his ridiuclous joke vote/call out on a "scum slip", it seemed like a desperate attempt to put fault on someone, but he fucked up with the rules. Qonsequently BKE, so far is the only player that stands out to me as somewhat scummy.
Reading chezinus last post, I still don't agree with the mass claim idea. Sit will still end up with everyone claiming audience memebers. Tangerine, chezinu, why do you feeld it was nessecary to give the player list :S ?
On November 01 2012 06:08 Mementoss wrote:
On October 31 2012 11:38 Blazinghand wrote: Love to. My reason is that at this point in the thread he is the scummiest. "No way," you say, "he hasn't posted yet!" Often, that is reason enough. Proof of his scumminess is that he is a general liability.
Quack is the sound ducks make. Really though I'm gonna change my vote to Adam there's no way that post is town. Seriously if he was reforming posts he'd reform his post into that post instead of making a complaining post. Trying to get cred when he deserves none. Untie!
Going to gym, fuck the rules. Only got 5 minutes but would like to comment on a few things.
The above is your case against Adam right? I don't consider it the strongest case, as you above seem pretty confident in it, but the fact that he hasn't been back to contribute is pretty un easing. leaning scummy on him right now.
I half agree to what you say about crossfire too blazinghand. His posts were unreadable thats for sure. I had to re-read several paragraphs 3 times before I even understood what the point was, and then it didn't even deliverable the point well -_-. This is more likely xfire posting as town because he was being ridiculous, but I also think there is a possibility he started posting these long unreadable fluffy statements, so that maybe someone else would follow his ridiculous posting style and muck up the town completely. Thats scum intereference. Also, he actually looks to the non-reader, that he is contributing more than most, when really, hes more interested in literary skills and looking town, than actually finding scum.
ATM I would be happy to vote either Xfire or BKE, (which I stated earlier why I thought his fake joke stuff seemed scummy, while his purposely?? getting restrictions wasn't liekly scummy), could go for Adam too, but I would rather wait for him to come into the thread again before doing that.
Gunna lay down a vote Xfire atm. Need to re-read the thread and consider all the options, I have been either asleep or at work for this whole thread thus far.
##Vote Crossfire
Xtremely weird change of opinion, there. You go from saying its scummy to blatantly not follow the alphabet rules, to doing it yourself without any indication why you suddenly don't care anymore. Zero sense does that make.
Again says its weird, not scummy. Just says it makes zero sense. Keirathi has zero desire to get a lynch going today, and he is afraid to commit. Hes leaving himself many avenues open for later when he decides to vote.
On November 02 2012 01:18 Keirathi wrote:
On November 01 2012 06:55 Blazinghand wrote: gonzaw-- I'm willing to buy that you did in fact read my post, just not very carefully.
On November 01 2012 01:22 Blazinghand wrote: The game is fine and all, and if you want to banter and go back and forth, do it. But the terrible lobstrosity of a post that crossfire puked into the thread is the kind of thing that doesn't help. There are times to break the rules. In a way, chezinu knows this better than anyone here, but hes too busy being chezinu to lead town.
breaking the rules is not a scum move, any more than simply not posting for an hour is a scum move. tons of people have 1+ hour gaps in between their craptacularly bad alphabetical posts-- you should just make decent, good posts instead if you're not in the middle of a conversation.
I don't know how this seems to be dogmatically in favor of using the 1-hour wait method at all times or the rhyming method at all times. You should read my posts more clearly and think a bit harder about the game. Part of the reason I'm on your ass is that you're not playing like you normally do. This focus from you, and the lack of serious pressure on multiple targets, that's not like you. The gonzaw I know, when he plays town, has fullisades of questions for everyone. Why just this one Keirathi case? Where's your usual constant interrogation and probing of everyone in the town? I remember your posts as being kinda annoying and having formatting issues, and maybe being unfocused, but also being unrelenting in their pressure on multiple targets. What gives?
Forgive me for not commenting on this sooner sooner, but I just now had the available time to do the research. Go back and look at Aperture 2. He literally made a case/accusation against EVERY SINGLE PLAYER day 1. Its just such a huge disconnect from "everyone is scummy, lets question/accuse them!" to "well, this one guy is kinda scummy because he hasn't posted as much as I expect him to". Just my opinion, but this doesn't really fit the town gonzaw that I remember either.
Again spreading some suspicion on gonzaw. Not saying hes scummy per sae but saying his meta doesn't fit aperature 2. And ALSO he doesn't mention that gonzaw was traitor in aperture 2, and he won with scum, so this meta doesn't even make sense. He doesn't follow up with in game evidence or even ask gonzaw to clarify anything. This brings me to my next point.
Part II - Doesn't fit the meta
Every game I have played with Keirathi he has been very active and has been a major part in pushing discussion. Even if hes not scumhunting hes pushing discussion in strategic ways. This game has been the very opposite. He is a commentator, active, without pushing discussion to actually find scum. That is all I have to say on this, because meta should just be a supportable part not the main part of a case.
Part III - Active Lurker
Keirathi has been actually quite active in this game at many times, however he has only put down a few lines every time he has been here, and choses not to discuss the current parts of the thread. He timeline seems to sprinkle at many times in the thread, indicating he is chosing not to contribute in his normal town manner, or he doesn't overly care about finding scum. Just to separate himself from the major lurkers in this game.
He also has been excessively lazy this game and making excuses.
On October 31 2012 14:02 Keirathi wrote:
On October 31 2012 13:55 Adam4167 wrote: Perhaps click on his profile and check for yourself?
Quite simple really.
Red he has never been.
Sure, I could have checked myself, but you already did the research Totally easier to just ask you to share.
On October 31 2012 13:33 Keirathi wrote:
On October 31 2012 12:44 Crossfire99 wrote: Gosh, what have we here?
On October 31 2012 12:22 Keirathi wrote: 'Sup, everyone. Time to get rid of those pesky musicians.
How have you not posted on what has happened so far? I seem to remember the talkative little townie in Aperature that wasn't afraid to comment on anything.
Keirathi was enjoying some Diablo 3 with a buddy. Looking back over the posts since I chimed it, it doesn't look like theres really a whole lot to comment on. Maybe its just me, but while this posting restriction is very entertaining, its quite hard to say exactly what you mean.
He is apathetic. He knows better than this, there is never gunna be anyting to comment on unless you push the discussion, which keirathi has not beeen trying to do like his normal town self. Making an excuse to blame the mechanics for not posting.
##Unvote ##Vote: Keirathi
[-]
Other stuff:
Alright so Im still not sure on crossfire, but I think there are more likely places to catch scum than him so im taking my vote off him. I can see what hes doing from both alignments, so I shouldn't make a solid choice on only that. His reaction didn't really lead me any further with more of an opinion on him.
Probably 2nd scummiest player imo is BKE, I agree with SnB on his thoughts on him.
Dingaling, is also an option but it would be strictly policy lynch at this point. I think he is more likely unactive than lurking.
When is deadline? 10 hours? We need to somewhat start consolidating or discussing your straight up two best scum reads asaply.
Bottom part is so scummy, because you basically say your vote for Keir isn't pushed by your case but by the lack of Xfire's scummness. Cause of this, it shows me that you have no confidence in this case about Keir, because you had to justify a vote change. Dingaling shouldn't even be included in this post as you already have two scum reads, why would you support a policy lynch when you have two scum?
Eyeing one of Hopeless posts, I noticed I hadn't unvoted and voted is that what you guys are saying Im am being hypocritical on?
BHow does it show that at all. CI was just verifying/ re-evaluating my read on crossfire because people were still mentioning it.
Knuckling down here, this is not clarifying anything about your read. Look at what you say "I think there are more likely places to catch scum that him", you initially had a scum read on him, so your read has changed from scum to less likely scum. Moseying down after the bolded part, you say that he is doing neutral posting. No where do you clarify your stance, you just confuse the hell out of us. On my bolded part, it doesn't make sense to say you are unvoting Xfire explicitly because it implies that you think his neutrality is a bigger tell than your own Keir case.
X BK, I dont understand what your saying, I already explained to you what I was saying, YOU are confusing the hell out of me, you are saying townies should just tunnel people all game :S, you tunnel hopeless for no reason all day, then only vote off him because BH told you and too, and to save your own ass - since i know my alignment, and i know im town - im going to switch my vote to you - i agree with snbs analysis on you - and all your play this game i cant see from a town point of view at all - this last push against me makes no sense at all and seems a bit desperate, is this another joke vote
##unvote ##vote: broodkingexe
So, at first I was like "well regardless of alignment, players should want to stay alive - townies should always try to avoid a mislynch, and since Mementoss was the main other lynch choice from BKE, it doesn't have to be scummy to switch to BKE." But there's a key step missing here - after dropping down that huge case, telling us all how persuaded he is that Keirathi is scum, he puts zero further effort into getting keirathi to be a lynch possibility. If a townie was this convinced that he'd found scum, then his primary responsibility would be to put some work into pushing that lynch, or at the very least into exploring whether other people were willing to vote with him. Instead of doing any of that, he just drops down a big case and leaves it there to sit in his filter, then switches off of it with little to no comment when he needs to save himself.
also note the "agree with snb's analysis" without any elaboration or inserting his own analysis, and later on he says "BH is the only guy I have a good town read on" - not a tremendously strong point, but it does kind of smell like buddying people with thread presence who weren't pushing for his lynch.
So in conclusion: Between the way he phrased his early case on crossfire and the disconnect between his attitude towards Keirathi vs how I feel a townie would have behaved, I think there is enough scum motivation in his filter to corroborate the evidence of Gonzaw's voting behavior, which other people have talked about before.
gonzaw spelled mementoss's name wrong in the voting thread, multiple times
meh actually nevermind i thought he might be doing that to avoid the vote-counting bot that igrok said he was using, but he always spells it "mementos" in this thread as well
On November 04 2012 06:19 Blazinghand wrote: see you can't just tack on "if you know what I mean" to the end of a sentence that doesn't have an alternative dirting meaning.
I'll tack my dirty meaning onto your sentence, if you know what I mean
On November 04 2012 07:00 Mementoss wrote: But I already half gave up on this game, because everyone has the mentality come in and make 1 post the whole day saying im voting mementoss, like that is going to catch a scum :S. Its basically some bullshit WIFOM that was probably placed purposely. It only takes 1 wolf in sheeps clothing to lead the herd, if you know what I mean
Then fucking do something that makes people think that you are town. You're not doing a good job at it at this point.
But since you're here, maybe you can comment on this, since you didn't the first time I mentioned it:
On November 02 2012 02:13 Keirathi wrote:
On November 02 2012 01:52 Mementoss wrote: Part II - Doesn't fit the meta
Every game I have played with Keirathi he has been very active and has been a major part in pushing discussion. Even if hes not scumhunting hes pushing discussion in strategic ways. This game has been the very opposite. He is a commentator, active, without pushing discussion to actually find scum. That is all I have to say on this, because meta should just be a supportable part not the main part of a case.
Part 2)
*EVERY* game you've played with me? So...just Liquid City and Aperture 2? Two games that were going on at the exact same time and I had vastly different playstyles and time commitments. Hell, the ONLY thing I did in LC on day 1 was yell at kush a bunch, and throw some weak arguments onto kingjames, then afk for 24+ hours.
I could make the worlds greatest case on scum and it wouldnt matter cause no one is here to switch votes, and everyone probably just wont post or disregard it.
On November 04 2012 14:06 Blazinghand wrote: If you would reconsider your vote and talk about hopeless, all it does is waste our time. I guess it tells us a bit about you but that's it. He's town and you're either blind or willfully not seeing that. I don't even get it dude.
Whatever, I'm not going to start an argument with you, because I think you're town and have good intentions. And, I don't even think you're necessarily *WRONG* about Hopeless being town, since I've believed he was town most of the game, but the fact that you're unwilling to reevaluate in light of new information just blows my mind.
You think your mind is blown now, just wait a while...if you know what I mean... MUAHahhahahah!
You can blow my mind any day, if you know what I'm sayin. *wink*
Your mind isn't the only thing that blows around here.
So it appears that Mementoss has decided to claim scum, and it looks like we're falling into the trap of letting a pretty-much-decided lynch keep us away from actually doing any scumhunting. That's not a good thing for town - just look at Liquid City, where town got handed two scum lynches by good blue play, but let its momentum die out and still lost the game. So let's try and get this thread moving a bit. First a few questions: - Stutters: I get that plowing through day1 is hard because of the rhyme game, but you've had some time so I would really like something from you other than the mementoss-Adam connection stuff and complaining about Chezinu. Believe me, we all feel the same way about Chezinu, but since he won't actually provide his reasoning for stuff like his claim plan or his D1 ninja vote on Mementoss I don't really know what to do about him. Chezinu actually plays like this all the time, regardless of alignment. So do you have any other potential scum reads? Or do you want to build up a case on Adam based on his posting or his actions, rather than the connection theory with Mementoss?
- Hopeless: You've been rocking the innuendo game, but I don't see much coming out of you yet today (not that anyone has seen much coming out of you, if you know what I mean) besides the innuendos and your Keirathi thing. Yesterday you attacked crossfire for voting then afk'ing (or at least, I assume that's what you meant by + Show Spoiler +
On November 02 2012 07:32 Hopeless1der wrote: For tomorrow's minigame, I suggest "Race to lynch Crossfire!". Game involves voting ASAP and then afk'ing until the lynch. Have a great time guys, and remember, the points don't matter.
). How do you feel about crossfire right now based on his posting? Additionally, do you think he could be Mementoss's buddy if Mementoss flips scum?
- Chezinu: If you don't want to explain why you ninja voted Mementoss yesterday, then how about this - who do you think could be his scum partner? I'd appreciate it if you provided some reasoning other than your colored list. Now, some of my own thoughts:
- I was reading through Crossfire's filter to think about asking him a question, but I found some stuff in there that I very much don't like.
For one thing, there's the overall fluffiness or what people have been calling his "poetry" - I think it was perfectly possible to play within the minigame restriction while still making total sense and expressing ideas in a clear and concise manner.
My meta is completely destroyed because this game makes it much too fun to post all these sentences with ascending acrostic alphabetic beginnings. No, I say look at one's posts in this game to determine alignment.
I don't like this comment. Why should you be worried about staying in your "meta" - for one thing, you have like 200 posts, so how much meta can there be? For another thing I would expect anyone doing a meta read to take into account the unique circumstances of this game. It's weird that you call attention to and excuse a difference from an imagined "meta".
Then from earlier in his filter there's
Really, what I was trying to say before I was so rudely interrupted was just that this posting restriction is making me feel like gonzaw with all these posts I'm making, and I can see the appeal of playing like this.
- more being all like "guys i'ma post so much!" - but his filter is really not very long. (You know what else of his isn't very long?) Like, there was no need to draw everyone's attention to the fact that he was posting a lot unless he's worried that people would accuse him of not posting enough.
then later on there's this:
Ah, a wild Chezinu appears! Before it gets too long I must catch up to post my thoughts. Chezinu, if I include myself along with you, audience members now number two.
Doubtful am I that claiming will be useful because those evil musicians will just pretend to be one of us. Eventually we will see everyone's colors bright as can be. For all that is required is some meditative thought once all have played in this little alphabet game.
This is a really weird thing to do. In the exact same breath, tell someone their plan is bad, and also go along with it. That said, this may well have been an optimal scum response to Chezinu's plan - we all agreed that scum would have to claim VT, but by doing it early he fits in and his claim gets cred if people follow Chezinu's plan, while simultaneously he comes out against it so he's on the right side of popular opinion if everyone else says "wtf chezinu your plan is scummy and terrible". (scummy and terrible - just like "the game" right?) (+ Show Spoiler +
in case you didn't get it the first time (check my filter) "the game" is what Chezinu calls his penis.
)
Finally, there's one less significant thing that I still want to call attention to. (well, less significant than the rest of my case. Still more significant than crossfire's success with the opposite gender.)
On November 01 2012 01:37 Crossfire99 wrote: Just to clarify, Hopeless, I did claim; but did I do that to take the heat off of blues, or am I actually a blue trying to claim VT to sneak under the radar (really over the radar with the way I've been posting)? Keep on guessing because I might not have even read my role PM myself. Lol. Maybe I should do that. Novel idea I had, to play without checking my role PM. Oh the possibilities!
On November 01 2012 01:50 Crossfire99 wrote: Xfire has now checked his role PM, so his win condition is clear to him. You will no longer see that from me because I guess I do have the possibility of playing against my role PM. Zorry for that, strong.
The interesting thing here is that in the first post, he "proposed" the idea that in the future he might play without reading his role PM (which, by the way, is a really weird thing to write a post about in the first place - more fluff, I guess?) but then after I yell at him about it, he claims that he just checked his role PM for the first time. I don't believe for a second that he actually played that far into the game without checking his role PM, but why would he phrase his response to me like that? I think it's because he was trying to be super-conciliatory after I yelled at him; he probably guessed that saying "okay I checked it" was the most direct way to get me off his back, when he should have said "I didn't try that this game, in the future I will not play like that."
Again, this last point is less significant, but it is a discrepancy and I think there is a scum motivation for it.
The main counterpoint to this case, that I can see, is (if Mementoss flips scum) the fact that crossfire voted for Mementoss yesterday. However, I'm not convinced that means very much. Don't forget, Gonzaw made sure that Mementoss wouldn't be lynched yesterday with his weird voting behavior. I could totally see a scum team tripping itself up like that if two of the players voted early (or committed early to voting, in Gonzaw's case) for their teammate, and then had to backpedal furiously when it turned out that he might actually get lynched. Anyway, this is only relevant if Mementoss flips scum.
On November 05 2012 03:18 Blazinghand wrote: I don't get how there was every any doubt that Mementoss = scum and Hopeless = town
umm, hopefully you had some doubt yesterday, seeing as
On November 02 2012 08:58 Blazinghand wrote: Know I am here, Mementoss! Lo, I consolidate onto ##vote: BKEXE. My vote will prevent your horrible mislynch. No way is Mementoss Lynch a good idea today.
i just wanted to give him a careful read-through before we lynch him, so i did.
On November 05 2012 03:18 Blazinghand wrote: I don't get how there was every any doubt that Mementoss = scum and Hopeless = town
Sometimes people just want to see a 'good performance'
@SnB - I was actually attacking Crossfire because I thought he was BKE's scumbuddy at that point. When you say MMT has claimed scum, you mean the way he's given up and is just spamming in-your-endo's?
I almost 100% agree with Chezinu's painting, its very lifelike.
3 Scum (1 confirmed) 4 Performers (1 confirmed) 3 Audience 1 Host =11 Players Total Potential for 4 Audience/No Host based on setup speculation That means its currently 7v2 or 6v2v1.
Chezinu thinks he's got all the audience. I'm not convinced on Crossfire in that list but I am confident that MMT is either Black or Red. gonzaw's shenanigans makes him being red far more likely.
Yeah so what do you think of Crossfire right now? Think I might have a point? Or is there someone else you have a better read on for the (second/third) scum?
and yes that is what I meant about mementoss claiming scum
On November 05 2012 08:06 Crossfire99 wrote: Mementoss, there's no reason to jerk us all around. Do you really think BH is Drew? Can you provide any evidence to support this? Or I am just going to have to ignore everything you wrote this day because you couldn't control yourself and had to spew your junk all over.
Spewing junk all over? Well, that doesn't sound like Mementoss, now does it?
EPT
Totally easier to just ask you to share.
