EPTAcme Mini Mafia, Inc - Page 15
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Acrofales
Spain18100 Posts
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Acrofales
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Acrofales
Spain18100 Posts
But DP's story seems to check out, although he could be scum riding on the wave of claimers: the medic part of the jailkeeper cannot be verified due to the way this game works and the RB is equally likely to have prevented a hit. So DP could be scum on an awesome bus of Drazak and then claiming town RB instead of scum RB. I think all setup speculation is pretty much out the window right now. That leaves behaviour; and risk is still the scummiest. Also, with DP claiming he RB'd Prom and Prom claiming RB'd, Prom cannot be SK (if SP was lying about being a roleblocker, then Kush wouldn't have been RB'd). | ||
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On November 10 2012 09:08 thrawn2112 wrote: @ prom I didn't breadcrumb a target. I woke up hungover (halloween/birthday weekend) and put as much effort into a 1 shot-cop breadcrumb as I could stand and didn't bother with the target. acro's complete lack of a breaddcrumb after seeing the effort he went to to make the mason breadcrumb is worrying. it's hard for me to accept that a guy who would encrypt a fakeclaim wouldn't bc his role or action during N1 The point of a mason breadcrumb is so that the partner can claim after death and become pretty much modconfirmed town (that's why I hammered on hiding it well). THAT is why I was hammering on breadcrumbs. Other roles scum can plant breadcrumbs easily. Hell. I've done it. | ||
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Acrofales
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On November 10 2012 09:14 Acrofales wrote: That's the problem I have. I cannot see this game being even remotely balanced without a scum roleblocker. But DP's story seems to check out, although he could be scum riding on the wave of claimers: the medic part of the jailkeeper cannot be verified due to the way this game works and the RB is equally likely to have prevented a hit. So DP could be scum on an awesome bus of Drazak and then claiming town RB instead of scum RB. I think all setup speculation is pretty much out the window right now. That leaves behaviour; and risk is still the scummiest. Also, with DP claiming he RB'd Prom and Prom claiming RB'd, Prom cannot be SK (if SP was lying about being a roleblocker, then Kush wouldn't have been RB'd). Oh, forgot to finish that last sentence: because there were 2 hits, that means that whoever carried a KP was not Prom, because he was definitely RB'd. | ||
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On November 10 2012 09:19 DarthPunk wrote: I did try telling you all without claiming. There are too many blues in this game, You do not have all the information. etc Now I will die tomorrow night. So thanks I guess. Hey, don't blame me. I was against that shit. I just joined because people were making it impossible to play without claiming. People be derps, yo. | ||
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If this is what happened, it was a fucking superb plan. | ||
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On November 10 2012 09:26 DarthPunk wrote: Do you think this game would be balanced with 3 goons+ godfather or 2 goons framer and godfather? because it seems obscenely town favoured even with a scum roleblocker or framer. I feel a 4man scumteam would be okay, but only without an SK. However, there were 2 kills on N1 and the OP says that scum KP is ALWAYS 1 and there are no scum KP roles there either. Meaning someone is forgetting to claim vig and fakeclaiming vt instead (honestly, that would be the most retarded shit ever), or there is an SK. 4 scum, 1 SK and 8 town just doesn't seem right. 2 mislynches and some bad luck at night and scum wins. Assume SK and scum hit town at night: 8-4-1 becomes 5-4-1 becomes 2-4-1 and scum has won. Let me put it differently: town would have to KNOW it's a roleblock/JK heavy game to make a setup like that fair. I would also hesitate to call it normal, because it's not balanced around scumhunting inasmuch as protecting townies at night. | ||
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On November 10 2012 09:41 DarthPunk wrote: certainly more volatile then. But not imba. Clearly by the presence of a oneshot cop and a SK this setup is not normal. I can't make sense of it so I am going to try and ignore it. [M][N] Acme Mini Mafia - 8/13 alive; due to end Nov 12 - Nov 18 (wherebugsgo is host; HiroPro is cohost) | ||
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Acrofales
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On November 10 2012 10:00 DarthPunk wrote: That confirms serial killer and 3 scum then? No, it confirms the Mafia Lords signed off on it being normal. Other than that it doesn't do anything. However, it is simply showing that this game is considered normal (and previous Bugs games with C9++-esque rules were too). | ||
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Jailer claimed to RB Release and no NK happened. How the fuck was the lynch on Thrawn? Then okay, thrawn flipped town. HOW THE HELL WOULD A TOWN RBer NOT RB THE SAME DUDE? It was at that point 100% obvious that DP was scum, needed a kill to win and had to blame that kill on someone. Enter Release, te scapegoat. Fuba, who never actually took the game too seriously had completely given up and was sheeping DP without thinking at this point. And Kush never bothered thinking it through either. | ||
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First, I want to commend Muso for his play, even though it was a judgement error. I had never thought of the "town reason for fakeclaiming mason" into account, but Muso was right: if TL games didn't tend to run on a LAL policy, it makes good sense: town is not relying on the mason's night actions, yet scum wants masons dead, so a VT not too sure of his analytical skills can take one for the team in this manner. I was kinda excited about counterclaiming for two reasons: The first was obviously that I just took one look at the claim and thought "that is a bullshit claim and if I were a mason I would not claim like that. Less so if I were completely new to the game". Which led me to wonder who and why would try to fake claim and I figured the fastest way to defuse that claim was to counterclaim. Seeing as nobody else had counterclaimed yet, I was fairly certain that either Muso was actually a mason derping it up completely, or there were no masons. The second was to gauge reactions around the way it played out and get some actual useful content, which was absolutely lacking in what was looking to be a regular D1 snorebore. The most interesting D1 (actually N0, but lets not nitpick) I have played was when Hiro made up the bullshit "House Chezinu" claim in Bastard Mafia 2: while not quite on the same scale, I thought the way the story would unfold would give us some rather interesting discussion. This only partially worked out. It did generate a lot of discussion, but the people whose reaction I connected with scum mindset were all town. The scum simply rolled with the punches and lurked through the whole ordeal. Nevertheless, I feel the discussion generated was generally useful, but am not sure it was enough to justify the gambit. @Bugs: I was not sure the encryption was in the spirit of the game. Doing that with steganography would have been possible, but a lot harder. Are you okay with that? Zealos clearly wasn't and I have seen encryption used to pretty much break some non-normal games. However, I didn't see much harm in doing this here. @Prom: sorry for pushing you so hard in the early game. However, the pushing served its purpose and made me lean town on you before it was lynchtime on D2. You played well, until you decided to lynch thrawn for no sane reason I can think of (and yes, I read your postgame justification). @Sandro: you are just as wrong as I was during the game to put too much stock into the setup: A full JK and a 1-shot: JJ (or DD if you prefer) A full roleblocker and a 1-shot: RR A 1-shot cop: C Makes: JJRRCTT, which according to the regular C9++ rules is a game without an SK. Therefore all speculation about the existence of a scum RBer based on setup is circumstantial, because Bugs clearly changed the setup in more ways than just replacing millers and medics. More ranting at Kush, Fuba and Release (and a bit at Prom) at endgame: However, by LYLO the C9++ setup speculation was irrelevant: there was a claimed jailer. Scum does not leave claimed jailers alive. Especially not 2 nights in a row. The no-kill was a good idea from DP, but town should 100% have lynched Release and then DP, or vice versa. I presume Prom has read my ranting in the obs qt about the whole "lets make cases" dealio... and DP has already chipped in for the scum viewpoint on how much fun shitting up the thread was. No need for cases, the game is played out. You reached endgame. You have 2 lynches to kill the last scum. Scum doesn't voluntarily let blues live. Therefore if Release isn't scum, DP is. Everything else, including how scummy thrawn, mkfuba and kush look is irrelevant. There is only very strange WIFOM that lets thrawn be scum in the endgame that DP orchestrated. For the wifom to be in any way believable, DP would have had to forego killing the last night as well (if you lynch Release as you damned well should), which means town gets a free mislynch, lynches Thrawn and then lynches DP at lylo instead of mylo). There were SO many things wrong with town at the endgame: nobody asked why the fuck a town RBer would not block Release again? He did so once and it apparently prevented a NK. Acro, flipped roleblocker, ALSO RB'd Release on a night without a kill. Therefore RB'ing anybody other than Release is fucking retarded from a town point of view. Yet, DP roleblocked FUBA. Why? Well, he needed to fucking kill somebody AND lynch Release. If he killed somebody with Release RB'd, then he would be in deep shit. Add everything together and it was 1000% obvious that DP was scum (even with a town read at the time of my death). But town switched their brains off at endgame, which will continue to make me bang my head into a wall every time I watch a looney tunes cartoon. Thanks for ruining fun cartoons, town. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18100 Posts
The first time I used encryption in a mafia game it was actually a mix of encryption and steganography: I hid the encrypted message as if I was hitting random keys in anger. Is that okay? It took more effort than just throwing out an encrypted post. Why is the level of effort involved a relevant measure? In the end, well-hidden breadcrumbs (steganography) serve a similar purpose, but (generally) do require more effort. The purpose of both is a sort of time capsule: you want to prove that you had a thought at a previous point in the game. There is one important difference between steganography and cryptography that feels relevant to Mafia games: the advantage of steganography is that you keep it hidden that there even IS a secret message. Other times, like this game, the fact that there was a secret message was somewhat irrelevant: I just didn't want the content read yet. However, that is not the aspect that you don't like. The defense for steganography over cryptograpy that the message is hiding in plain sight is really a moot point. In this game alone, Release planted a breadcrumb that was intentionally meant to be found, yet nobody found it. I stumbled over the sentence, but never expected it to be hiding a breadcrumb. I think it was Prom who said he stumbled over the sentence and looked for a breadcrumb, but didn't find it. And that was one that was meant to be found. It takes a gigantic amount of effort to find a well-hidden breadcrumb... and the more text someone writes, the more effort is required. The possible messages that might be hidden are gigantic and the possible ways to hide them are equally gigantic. So now that we have established that a well-hidden crumb will not be found without it being pointed out post-hoc, why are these "in the spirit of the game", yet encryption isn't? TLDR: why is "effort" a good measure of whether a method for planting a time-capsule in a mafia game, is within the spirit of the game or not? Note: I have personally not yet taken a stance. I have seen encryption being used to completely break a themed game, and if a game can be broken in such a manner then encryption (and probably steganography, and any other way of timestamping a message so it can serve as a time capsule) should be disallowed. However, I want to understand why this is "against the spirit of the game" in the more general case. | ||
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On November 20 2012 12:39 Promethelax wrote: BlazingHand thinks that everything from out of game is cheating. Unless it is an ms paint picture. I don't like encryption just because it removes the skill form the game. If I sat down and hid a BC you could find it. You probably wouldn't but you could. Blue snipes are a beautiful thing from scum and encryption just removes the challenge from the game. Acro: I think you said "don't bother trying to decrypt that, I have experience with encryption and it is impossible" or something along those lines. I think that in itself is the answer, there is no chance to do anything except accept that whatever is there is there. I also wouldn't be too confidant, it is possible to translate those messages based on word length, never be too careful. What, other than a pen and paper (or a text editor), do you need from outside the game to decrypt a one-time pad message? If you mean that you need knowledge about the encryption method, I could say the same for steganography. What if I hid the letters of the message at every prime position? You'd need to know what primes are to even think of looking for a message there (and if you think primes are easy, how about fibonacci numbers or any of a myriad of less known sequences?) I disagree that breadcrumbs can be found. While theoretically possible, there are so many options for hiding them that it is impossible in practice. Theoretically, decryption is also breakable, but same story: there are so any possible keys that in practice it's impossible. See my answer to Prom below for a short explanation. Badly hidden breadcrumbs can be found, just as badly encrypted messages can be deciphered. It all comes down to the effort that you want to spend hunting crumbs or fiddling with decryption. Nothing from outside the game, other than pen and paper, is needed in either case. I finally dredged up the old discussion: clicky. Qatol brought up a far better point: due to the secretive nature of crumbing, scum *could* hide multiple crumbs for fakeclaiming, while giving multiple encrypted messages would never work. Therefore an organized town using encryption on a large scale to mass roleclaim at the start of the game would prevent fakeclaims from being invented at any point past D1. While true, it only seems to be a problem for the extremes and for the express purpose of breaking themed games like PTP. I agree that this use of encryption is against the spirit of the game, because the tool is being used to limit scum's abilities with pretty much no harm to town. However, encryption is not the only tool, see, for instance Space Ship Mafia, where the game was broken by PMs and a mass roleclaim. The problem here is the mass roleclaim, which in a normal game is almost always a dumb idea. With encryption it is good for town, though, but I think the main problem here is the mass roleclaim, not encryption. As for bluesniping: encryption is highly visible. There is really no point for blues to use encryption to hide their claims or night actions (unless VTs are doing it too, but this falls under the point of mass claiming). A blue using encryption would simply get shot. For an example, see GoT mafia, where Zentor got shot, mainly because of his encrypted message. + Show Spoiler [@prom] + It was a one-time pad, which can only be broken by a brute force attack. Now because the key was themed it was actually guessable, but still. Technically, I used the same key two or three times, so frequency analysis would have worked due to it not being a one-time pad, but in a message that size there is simply not enough text to use frequency analysis (or any other attack than guessing). | ||
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On November 20 2012 13:00 HiroPro wrote: marv sums it up lol. Even if you don't agree with that you should still consider the directly game-related aspects: how difficult it is for mafia to deal with encryption (not being able to figure out, very obvious when placed, allows town to store very complex messages, much more so than breadcrumbs) and the very fine line that encryption approaches with regards to private communication (keys that would be known to some people/not known to others). Only when taken to extremes. In most cases mafia has a really good solution for dealing with encryption. Shoot the bugger, because he's probably blue. The obviousness of the encrypted text is a downside, not an advantage. As for private comm: I have not yet seen a way of sharing a key with only some people in the thread and not with others in non-PM games. In PM games things clearly change, but then again, most of the game does. As for storing complex messages: it all boils down to effort again. Food for thought: If I were to breadcrumb a message, but instead of hiding it in plain text, I surround the message with random jibberish. Technically, this is steganography, not encryption, yet I can see no practical difference between the two. Would you feel breadcrumbing in a wall of random text is in the spirit of the game? | ||
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I am a mason. After chatting with my partner we decided to counterclaim, because we think Muso must be lying. Muso must be mafia and he's fakeclaiming to gain town credit. Looks like he was gambling that there wasn't an actual mason pair. Yeah Marv, it's harder to do this, but there's no reason to stick to syntax. I could have breadcrumbed "I am a liar" here if I got stuck on the letter y. No need to limit yourself to a specific sentence, as long as the meaning is communicated. Go try it! | ||
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Obviously, I created this rather rambling text to fit the breadcrumb, but it was not too hard to hide the letters on prime numbers. Using random letters to hide the breadcrumb, rather than actual, sensible text would have made this task far easier, though. In this game I had no need to hide the fact that there WAS a message, just the CONTENT of the message. I could therefore have used steganography like this: iamunxortptaacvumdatyesgbcqeown iwacstlaekyfiqwingg How would that have been distinguishable from encrypted text? No need to use primes either. I could have used any sequence. Even a regular one (and it would've made counting off random letters in the middle a lot easier too). | ||
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