EPTAnyway, more to come. No more distractions ^^
GSL Mini Mafia III - Page 7
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Anyway, more to come. No more distractions ^^ | ||
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marvellosity
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marvellosity
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marvellosity
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marvellosity
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I'll start with a few premises or things to think about. What I can't defend myself against is the accusation that this game I've not appeared how I usually look as town. Because that's simply apparent enough and I wouldn't argue about it. What I will argue and try to explain is that this doesn't make me scummy, it makes this game different. I want to defend myself using this game in conjunction with the meta attacks, and that's how it should be. Also importantly, none of what Hapa says about me really uses this game as evidence of why I'm scum, except with comparing to other games. But more of that later. Lack of Suspicion: It is fair that I've not been as suspicious of as many players this game as I'm used to being suspicious of. But we have to fucking take into account the nature of this game. Reading up, we have at least: vader struggled to make scumreads drazak struggled to make scumreads Keirathi struggled to make scumreads DarthPunk said he has way more town reads than normal Z-Bo has struggled to make scumreads/has townreads (I forget which right now). marv has struggled to make scumreads - and ding ding ding ding I'm scum! Give me a break. I sort of understand being held to a higher or different standard than other people, but it's grossly unfair not to take into account the state of the game. I am among a raft of players who at various times have struggled to make scumreads. This game I've picked up more town tells than scum tells, and what? I normally don't pick up this many town tells? That doesn't make me scum, not at all. It means that's the nature of this particular game. This CANNOT be ignored. This is highly rated to Overconsistency and I will talk about perceived Detachment: Again, I'm going to take into account the nature of this game. Don't forget that I effectively started this game 1.5 days in. That's 1.5 motherfucking days which I didn't have to flip flop around at the start of the day. In the situation of a normal game, I was basically afk until 12 hours until deadline. That's when shit starts coming together. I came in to the thread with fresh eyes, and had all the information and posts laid out in front of me, so that when I read it all and thought about it, I could make an informed decision on what I was seeing. It's almost like replacing in; speaking of which - Mad Men. I replace into that game and called one person town, another scum, and then just went bam bam bam scum scum scum. I didn't flip flop on my reads, I was 'overly consistent'. Obviously it's a bit of a stretch to say that game is the same as this one, but I did come into the game later, which gave me the double whammy of having all the information laid out in front of me and not being involved in town from the get go. I was also annoyingly away for the Hapa/Z-bo argument (pre-advertised, so no shenannies  ), meaning I wasn't in the thread for most of the most 'involved' town moments. In this light it should be possible to see how I might appear somewhat detached from the thread, even though I absolutely don't think I am, or at least I'm trying my bestest not to be. Twice I appeared in the aftermath of events with all the posts already made, and all there was for me to do was pick through these posts. In this light it should also be totally understandable why my suspicions have stayed more constant than they normally do in my town games; a lot of the time I haven't had the ebb and flow of "oh! suspicious" and then "oh, maybe not!" as the thread goes on. That just goes on in my head as I read and then I come to a conclusion - hello "overconsistency" Further, just looking at my filter it's clear to see that I have at various times been trying to figure out alignments. Kei said himself I was the only one interested in finding out his alignment. I quizzed austin on the (sub)optimal stuff because I wanted insight into his alignment. Repeatedly I asked drazak questions and tried to get him to post to figure out his alignment. Etc etc etc. In this case it mostly led to confirmation of my reads, and what? That's just how this game has panned out for me. Insta-lynch mechanic and other sundries because I'm terrible at organising posts: Firstly, using Rock Band and Clothes Mafia as points of comparison is tenuous, at best. With regards to Clothes Mafia, my main two suspicions were John Matrix (purely on setup strategy) and Ben Richards. In the context of a smurf game (guys, context of each game is REALLY FUCKING IMPORTANT) I did not (mostly) know who else I was dealing with. As a result I let myself get pushed off my scumread when, in any normal game where I knew who was pushing me off it, I would have simply pursued it to the lynch. In that game itself I even grumbled at the start of Day 2 about "stupid town-tells". Context = different. Rock Band I played a pretty sweet game if I do say so myself. But actually, those of you who watched/played - do you forget how uninvested i looked at the start? I believe I even said so during the game. Palmar's accusation of me gave me a kick up the backside - in fact that was the basis of the accusation. I was only fabulous subsequently. And I was never really afk for important thread events in that game either. I think one of the only things I've seen on me with relation to this game was how 'sure' I seemed on vader. But from my original case on vader to when I hammered - there was a long time in between. Mainly because I wanted to get discussion going, give town more time to discuss things, give vader time to post and redeem himself. Except vader never did redeem himself, did he? Many of you agreed that he was scum. Also no-one ever actually argued against the thrust of my arguments, which might have caused me to doubt myself. Just gonna copy paste a lot of shit to show this, so you'll be able to see what I had to say about vader, and you'll know that no-one disagreed with my points: On October 21 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote: vaderseven - for lack of content, firstly. But more tellingly for the manner of his posts. He mixes in the cute little posts - "what do you want to know about mes" and the little fun facts about his rolling mafia. In between those posts, though, are sarcastic and patronising posts that are really easy for scum to make because it makes them look like they know what's going on without actually have to contribute anything. On October 22 2012 00:40 marvellosity wrote: -snip- Most of all right now I want v7, drazak, and Keirathi to be posting. On October 22 2012 05:50 marvellosity wrote: I'm not exactly sure. A couple of posts later in his filter he explains he was just calling out bullshit and didn't read anything alignment-y from it. But then if that's the case, then the contributions were just pointless and not really contributions. I think Kei is playing pretty scummily - but what gives me pause is in his recent post, he just told town he doesn't really have any reads. Given he's under some pressure, it makes little sense for a scum Kei to do that. But then I find myself going around in stupid little wifom circles. What do you think? I don't have these little niggles about vader, so I'd quite like to hammer him. But we're still going places with discussion so I'm loathe to right now. Z-bo, are you sure that part of your read on Hapa isn't that you're putting him on a pedestal and placing unreasonable expectation from his posting? I'm getting that vibe from what you're posting about him. On October 22 2012 08:19 marvellosity wrote: Naw, not planned out, but the thing that made me think about it was the first post where he was like "meh, I don't have reads". Anyways, not really willing to give a time to hammer on vader. We'll do it when it's time to do it. On October 23 2012 00:42 marvellosity wrote: -snip- Where I stand right now: vader is my top scumread, but I *do* want to hear what he has to say. His appearance in the thread last night hasn't really assuaged my concerns at all, mostly because of the combination of his absolutely indignant posts on being called out and the fact he's referenced playing a fair chunk of mafia games. -snip- On October 23 2012 06:56 marvellosity wrote: Anyway, vader fits perfectly into the throwing-wood-on-to-the-fire mould, basically egging on the aggressiveness in the thread when there was no need for him to do so. Also, unlike austin, I see his 'I'm going through filter' thing as pretty scummy - like he's going through the motions rather than trying to push something constructive into the thread. BUT LOOK, I'M LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S SHIT?! No. Don't buy it. Every time I see vader post, he's not making me think any more that he's town. This scumbo gotta hang. ##Vote vaderseven. So yes, finally after a long day, I plopped the hammer down. I'd had enough indecision, and vader had done nothing to suggest he was town. That again is the context of this game. More on my apparent investment: I am as invested in this game as can be, and it's simply a lie that I'm not. I mentioned it before but it's worth repeating, my filter when compared to Death Note is already longer, and that was the case by the end of Night 1. Obviously on its own that doesn't have to say much, but if I'm defending myself against a slew of meta, it's fair that I can give the other side of the coin too. I would argue that I am *considerably* more invested in this game than Death Note, and that's because, shock horror, I'm town. tldr; Look at the context of this game, what I've done, the fact I've been afk, I'm invested, I'm town. Scumreads to follow but I need a break as this is long. | ||
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marvellosity
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marvellosity
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Again tied into Clothes Mafia - the game is different. I felt lost for a while because again, I'm dealing with a bunch of smurfs. It's just not a relevant comparison. The other comparison was made with Rock Band. I don't always fly off the handle like I did with Palmar, but it's motherfucking Palmar. What you guys are NOT taking into account is the fact that I had just played a game with Palmar, and he'd called me out during the night before I killed him as scum. At some point in the game, he said this to me: "marv: fuck you. you're useless and terrible." We'd also had a tete-a-tete or two in Bureaucracy Mafia. AND I have a LOT of respect for Palmar as a townie. Someone I largely consider to be a pretty superior townie to me. That is the context of me flying off the handle at Palmar in Rock Band. Context god-damnit. A related game, Movie Mafia... where I did end up flying off the handle at VE, but not for a long time. Filter of mine here, the accusations against me start pretty early: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346522&user=140487 Note how collected and calm I am in the face of the accusations for quite a long time. Either in obsQT or post-game (I think post-game), the host wherebugsgo said "I was actually surprised how long it took marv to OMGUS attack VE!" That was the last time I was seriously accused of being scum, and it took me a LONG time for me to get angry and at first I was not angry. Don't cherrypick meta. I don't always emotionally react like that as town, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. It's an invalid point. | ||
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marvellosity
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DarthPunk - probably town. For some reason I don't feel quite as strongly about this as I did earlier, but I would still be pretty dag surprised if he flipped scum. austinmcc - town. Thinking about the game critically. Not a lot else to say about him. Z-Bo - I think is town. Earlier today my read had waned a little, because I thought maybe I made too much of his thinking the same about keirathi as I did. But he's looking at my case critically which I like. iamp - probably town, but a bit weirder for me, because I've been thinking he's town for the whole game but he seemed to get on my case quite quickly, which I don't like. This is in large part ameliorated by the fact that I know he's been kicking himself for NMM3 for not going after me properly. Keirathi - I think is town by process of elimination. I explained why earlier but the way he both explained and backed off Z-Bo really softened my read. Hapahauli the Hypocrite Hapahauli is a new, but accomplished player. He's capable of strong play, and in his only (?) scum game as practically a total newb played a convincing game. And he's hoodwinked you this game. His reads: Hapa is a hypocritical motherfucker. He accuses me of making mainly only town-reads but he's done exactly the same fucking thing, and I'm the one who's scum for it? No siree. The only difference is that he was actually around to flip-flop a bit at times when I wasn't around. On October 20 2012 13:30 Hapahauli wrote: The point that people are trying to make is that it makes no difference. Scum aren't going to be deterred (or even remember) something like this. Anywho, I think it's best to agree to disagree here. It gave me a town read on you anyway so cool. Nao off to bed - peace out folks. On October 21 2012 12:58 Hapahauli wrote: Oh, and Idunno if I'd go THAT far. Mafia are capable of saying stupid things as well, though I do think he's town based on his interest levels. The question is whether he maintains his activity or not. There's a quick vote-unvote of iamp when iamp responded to him. He votes for vader, and he's null-leaning town on Keirathi (this is just going through his filter). He was also very briefly scummy on austin until austin made a post and then he was immediately unscummy on him. On October 22 2012 07:23 Hapahauli wrote: Okeydoke that's townie enough. Certainly can't lynch you over v7 at this point. He's townie on Z-bo (again, after an exchange that I wasn't here for). He's townie on Kei. On October 23 2012 06:26 Hapahauli wrote: Okeydoke I'm dropping the Z-Bo stuff. Starting to realize from my last post that Z-Bo could have read Kei's stuff much different than I. 180'ing the read here and calling him town (I DO WAT I WANT) - dropping the contradiction, everything else in his filter pretty much makes sense from a town perspective - willingness to jump on multiple people, making several consecutive reads and playing reactionary. More town-reads. On October 23 2012 08:30 Hapahauli wrote: I'mma goin to vote v7. ##Vote Vaderseven The only players who haven't given me some reason to think they're town are v7, drazak, and marv. And finally votes for vader, just like I did. Actually for all his doing this and doing that, the reasons I gave for voting vader were stronger than his. What Hapahauli is actually doing is 'getting involved' but without any actual results, apart from town town town town vote vader. It's a whole nonsense facade of activity to hide the fact he's not making proper reads. At least I fucking pursued mine. Oh, and we want to drop meta on this? This is his filter in Rock Band: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250&user=47519 Look at how much more he jumps around with his votes, and unlike this game, how he's willing to revisit past votes and vote them again (as opposed to the brief and meaningless vote flirtations here). Like seriously, I lost count of the number of times Hapa was everywhere with his vote, in distinct contrast to his play here. He's picking and choosing to try to make me look bad, but he's neglecting himself. So, that being said, we come to his iamp and marvellosity reads. I already attacked him heavily for his iamp case here: + Show Spoiler + On October 24 2012 06:23 marvellosity wrote: Hapa, you've gravely misrepresented what happened in the thread. Like Kei the strongest point looked to be the vader/kei thing. So I dug through his filter to look for how hard he was going at either. + Show Spoiler + On October 21 2012 12:36 iamperfection wrote: As for scum i really like the points that austin brought up about vaderseven. He really talks about himself a lot in his first few posts and not really much at all concerning this game I wants this sob to talk. ## Vote Vaderseven On October 21 2012 23:23 iamperfection wrote: guys guys guys me keen detective mind has picked up on something. Vaderseven said he would post after work and you look through the thread VERY closely you will notice that he in fact did not do that. I don't know what kind of job vader has but ill i know is i went to bed and he hadn't posted and he has still not posted after i have gotten up. Seriously though i think that saying your gonna do something and not doing it is one of the worst things you can do. Its a stalling tactic and i DEMAND vaderseven get in here and fast preferably . On October 22 2012 02:12 iamperfection wrote: bullshit he is scum for what he has done in this game. his posts are basically all talking about himself and he barely commented on anything else Also dont you think he would learn from his failure from last game and wouldn't do what he did. V7 is scum for his actions in this game. and....... this is a phone post if i ever saw one Meaning he has the ability to check the thread. The least he could do is check in.He hasn't. i have a big scum read on him. On October 22 2012 09:21 iamperfection wrote: still would rather have v7 go over anybody though On October 22 2012 11:00 iamperfection wrote: I cant believe if you have read the thread like you said you had you cant come up with anything besides draz a little scummy You now move from my scum category to super scum category. come back like hapa said with something or don't come back at all. On October 22 2012 11:16 iamperfection wrote: yes i think refusal to give reads on players is bullshit and its scum behavior. Same goes for you Keirathi. On October 22 2012 22:47 iamperfection wrote: i would hold a candle light vigil in your honor if you flipped town. i think its a moot point to keep hammering this point. you even said yourself its a terrible mindset that has gotten you lynched in the past. also its concerning that you called out for it in gsl I. you were scum remember. Me representing the town i am asking you to change nay begging you to change. If you are scum continue i have no problem pushing a lynch on you at this point. Shape up or die. The spoiler above contains the most pertinent posts regarding vader and Keirathi up to the post that you quote as 'golden'. iamp is pushing vader pretty hard for not contributing anything, and only towards the end, does he start pushing Keirathi for the same reason: "Same for you Keirathi" Keirathi then asks iamp, "what would you do if I flipped town?" and iamp responded with his candelight vigil comment. The comment was not, as I read it, a statement of certainty, on its own, of how scummy he found Keirathi. It was a direct response to a question which... how are you supposed to answer? If you asked me what would I do if I lynched you and you flipped town, what exactly would you be expecting me to say in this situation? vader was clearly iamp's main scumread through day 1, and this is clear to anyone looking at his filter with any sort of critical, or even just browsing, eye. The fact that you're representing otherwise is downright scummy and I want an explanation. The whole case is nonsense. I zeroed in in particular on his total misrepresentation of iamp's reads, which was just malicious, and he'd almost gotten away with it until I brought it up. The rest of the case is such a stretch as well. iamp having a strong read on drazak for dodgy reasons is pretty consistent with the way iamp plays the game and Hapa knows this too. It's a really bad case pushing bad suspicion. It's really scummy. On October 24 2012 08:13 Hapahauli wrote: Anywho, I want to comment on Marv's suspicions on me: My town meta is really really inconsistent at times. In particular, I'm good for making 2-3 horrifically bad cases in the early game - mostly because I post without proof-reading and I read filters faster than I should (confirmation bias ahoy). Now marv and I have played in several games, and he's been witness to these cases of mine over the last few months. It blows my mind that marv thinks I'm suspicious based on my iamperfection case - he of all people should be familiar with my town meta, yet he thinks I'm scummy for some reason. However, while I'm good at making the occasionally bad case/point, I'm pretty confident in this one (as well as my iamperfection case, just not on that one point any more). I think it's out there for the town to see how different marv is this game. Here he's using his own meta to try to cover up his bad case. No, the case on iamp was a forgery and he's just hiding behind the fact that he's made bad cases before to cover this one up. Incidentally, the only mini I played with hapa (i think?), rock band, he didn't make any blatantly bad cases. So there we go. Comparing a bad case in a 9 player mini past day 1 to casting around on day 1 in full-sized normals is... bad meta defence. His case on me is extremely convenient and he's pushed it well, mostly. He's noticed I'm not playing up to my usual strength and he's taking the opportunity to try to take down a strong townie without having to waste a night-kill on me. The problem is, he's not demonstrated at all how I'm playing scummily this game, he's just gone to town on meta and left it at that. And the rest of you fell right into it :/ For a case based solely on meta, he's not leaving me any outs: On October 24 2012 09:39 Hapahauli wrote: I already addressed the rest of that post previously. You still haven't shown me how you are capable of this behavior as town. I'm convinced that your filter can't come from town-Marv. But I'm not expecting you to disprove my case. Are you town? Stop saying you're "trying" and convince me. Dump your reads, give the town some good stuff, and there's a small chance I'll reconsider. Also, I'm curious if you still think I'm scum? Because that earlier "scum-Hapa" bravado of yours disappeared real quick. Oh, there's a small chance you'll reconsider your meta-only case? tyvm. On October 25 2012 05:30 Hapahauli wrote: Oh also I should probably talk about marv's "motivation" for giving so many town reads - the thing is, he can always retract those reads w/out any problems. For example, he was slightly town on Drazak, and all of a sudden finds him scummy now. Declaring people town doesn't matter if you aren't strong about it. Marv just weakly declares a bunch of people town while pursuing scumreads. Big difference. This is manipulation; this is putting me in a lose-lose situation. Reads fucking change as town and it's ludicrous to even insinuate otherwise. Of course reads change. Does anyone have the same reads on Day 3 as they do Day 1? Town reads grow stronger, or they nullify, or they turn into scumreads. It's the nature of the game. But he's painting it as a scummy action. THAT is what it scummy, not changing your reads. Especially if you can see my thought process behind it. I think some people are probably town while pursuing scumreads? You don't fucking say. Overall then: Hapa's playing a pretty clever fricking game, and he's got you lot going with him. He's an outrageous hypocrite with his 'marv has townreads' accusation when he's been much the same, with just a couple of little hops in the middle of big events (when I was away). His case on iamp totally misrepresents the thread and his case on me contains no scummy actions from this game. He's not actually picking anything out from anyone that's scummy in this game. His whole play today has been backing me into a corner; "when marv flips scum" over and over, and stuff like the quote there which doesn't give me any outs if I'm a townie. The reason lots of us are having trouble making scumreads is because this fucker is one of the scum and he's not been giving us anything obvious to go on. Hapahauli is scum. drazak the piggybacking sorta-hypocrite So yes, I think I've been wrong on drazak. *All* his play today has been simple bandwagoning. How nice for him to have an easy, long, nice-looking case to piggyback off. On October 24 2012 09:43 drazak wrote: *reads marvs filter* On October 24 2012 09:55 drazak wrote: To me, your play is pretty neutral, but based on the meta evidence? I think you're scum. I have no problem voting youbased on the meta evidence. ##vote marvellosity On October 24 2012 10:31 drazak wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16661536 is stalling, why would town stall? Scum would calmly defend themselves. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16661268 Where he basically confirms the meta read but then says that this game is special, really? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16661087 where he uses games that hapa picked as part of his meta to try to defend himself I think one of the most telling things is the comparison to the clothes mini where he appears to be unconfident of his vote, and then here he's sure about v7, who flipped town. On October 24 2012 11:24 drazak wrote: He did say fuck off to you hapa, but yeah, he doesn't seem to be as angry as those other games, not sure if whiny, but certainly not as angry. My play is neutral? How? He repeatedly refuses to answer that question to austin. What a delicious way to be able to avoid giving any sort of definitive opinion of my play this game. And the meta evidence? Now, I know a lot of you have both played, observed, or talked to me a lot. But drazak? What does he know of my play? Has he gone and looked at my meta for himself? There's been no evidence that he has. He's blindly gone along with a meta case that's designed to incriminate me with no critical thought on it himself. On October 24 2012 10:18 drazak wrote: I mean, if we're wrong, and hapa's read is wrong, then shit, mislynch, hope doc makes a good save, hope parity cop is alive or boxer knows when to claim, and then go after hapa as long as there's no good evidence to his defense. Marv hasn't adequately defended himself by anyone's means as far as I'm concerned, why are you so defensive of him DP? If "we" are wrong? What's this we? How can he be right when he has no fucking idea? He's also hypocritical, he'll happily be away and excuse his absences, but he'll push for 'scumstalling' when it's convenient to him. On October 24 2012 10:25 drazak wrote: DP bro, sorry that I had a life and that it snuck up on me, wish I didn't have to be afk for as long as I did, but with my laptop giving me issues I have to be at my desktop to post, I read a little bit of the thread on my phone but I had to reread it to make sure I had it when I was on my pc. while you may classify voting for marv as "sheeping" look at his filter, he's got no good defense to hapa's accusation, he says that hapa is cherry picking cases, but if he is then there should be ample evidence to the contrary regarding his meta. On October 24 2012 11:14 drazak wrote: You mean his lack of defense and his scumstall? On October 25 2012 00:46 drazak wrote: marv bro, where are your reads? you promised them in the morning, and you're not making good. *I* haven't been making good on my reads? As opposed to drazak, who's been a flowering blossom of information? No. What made me rethink drazak was the way he's jumped on to my case. For someone who doesn't know me at all, there's a lack of critical thought about how I play or what I've been done, and most importantly a complete lack of critical thought about my actual play this game - 'neutral'. Which brought me back to yesterday: On October 22 2012 03:01 marvellosity wrote: So is this a "I think you're scum" vote or a "pressure to post" vote? On October 22 2012 03:02 drazak wrote: I think he's stalling and I'd like to see him post, I wanted to see him post last night when I fell asleep, but it was a little too early. I push him to explain his vote on vader, and I even explicitly ask him if he thinks he's scum. He totally dodges the question and doesn't definitively answer. He's jumping on wagons without having to justify why the wagon he's on is scum. As a small aside, I can see him and Hapa together quite nicely. Hapa could have told him to go at me aggressively, which he has - but along side this he's been ignoring the questions about my play this game. Obviously this is just connection and what I have to say stands for itself, but it makes sense to me. I think drazak is scum. The read isn't as strong as with Hapa but he's both bandwagony, without explanations, and he often evades questions that might help others develop his reads on him - he misses the questions, or he's afk, while at the same time berating others for not posting immediately. | ||
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Seems like my case is wrong. Just as yours is. | ||
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and if i was medic or dt (presumably medic) i could blow yours up too. you're not even making sense. | ||
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yes, I am. you're so fucking convinced and you're so epically wrong. | ||
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Look at how you're coming across and even you should be able to understand my point of view on you. | ||
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