EPTGSL Mini Mafia III - Page 5
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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marvellosity
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drazak 09-27-2012 03:36 PM ET (US) This game sucks, can we have an immediate gsl open 3 because this one isn't so good so far :S On October 20 2012 09:11 drazak wrote: Yeah, there is a reason this game was invite after the last disa-gsl, game. Of course it starts while my laptop is put of commission haha. Phpnes and multiple computers for the win. On October 20 2012 09:27 drazak wrote: Of course Hapa, plenty of free time as far as I know, should be posting a bunch. Also a little less afraid to post for various reasons. What gives??? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 23 2012 13:08 Keirathi wrote: So, I've been thinking about this a lot. While I agree with your premise, I just don't agree that the hammer was suboptimal play IF Z-Bo is scum and was worried about dying. Its hard to say whether he was actually worried about dying or not, but I do think he was the second most likely possibility of being lynched, at least with the given information, behind v7. So, yea, I think he did the optimal scum thing in both cases: 1) giving himself another day and hopefully letting people talk themselves out of his lynch, and 2) attempting to discredit the person who attacked his hammer reasoning. Anyways, I still don't think a town ZB magically creates a top 2 scum read on v7 out of nowhere like that. The timing was just too convenient. I was pretty convinced even before his reasoning for hammering, and that was just the icing on the cake. Kei, why is it too convenient? Can you explain that please? I had a look at Z-Bo's filter from Liquid City. He sheeped on to Node with very little explanation, only after being prodded explaining that it was a policy lynch because he couldn't find anything better. Perhaps the starkest difference is that he went "fuck it, I'm voting coag", taking his own path. But he was lynching coag for being contentless and not scumhunting, similar to vader. I don't really see why in a 9 player mini like this his behaviour is marked as so drastically different. I get the feeling that people are wielding meta in a far too particular, minutiae manner. Most of my meta reads are pretty broad stroke - e.g. Rockband, Palmar - doesn't give a shit about town, Hiro - less invested but capable of long analysis posts. Rather than "I don't think he does this particular thing in this situation" As one of the hosts in his scum game, my main feeling was that he wasn't that invested in town until things started getting heated day 3, whereas my feeling this game is that he is much more invested than that. That, my friends, is MY meta read. What say you rabble? ^^ | ||
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marvellosity
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marvellosity
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marvellosity
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On October 23 2012 22:45 iamperfection wrote: Then whats his fucking strategy play terrible on purpose a scum drazak would have a partner that is a fact.i dont see anyone on the player list that would allow this to happen. Newbie scums don't just sit around in scumQTs waiting to be told what to post and waiting for advice. In LV I bussed the shit out of 4 newbie scum partners because I couldn't prevent them being liabilities. In Liquid City, ShiaoPi (not an idiot at all) posted some NK speculation and in scumQT I went "arg, don't post shit like that, people jump all over that!" and hey presto, BlazingHand jumped all over it. I'm a fucking control freak as scum and if I can't stop people doing whatever then I don't see who can. If you're giving him townie points for that, you're doing it wrong, dear. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Let me know what you think about Liquid anyway. On October 23 2012 23:26 Keirathi wrote: Anyways, I wasn't really making a specific meta read. Just that I don't remember anything that blatantly "bad" from Z-Bo in any of the games of his that I've obsed. Except that *is* a specific meta read, you're saying his one post/one action here is scummy because you don't remember other such instances. As opposed to trends/tone/investment that I was getting at, which that is not. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 24 2012 00:18 Keirathi wrote: And, really, it IS using trends. A trend that, throughout all of his games that I've watched, he has good reasoning for changing his scum reads, not magically pulls names out of thin air just because they're being talked about/voted (although maybe the Node thing shoots this out of the water). ------ First off, I've already explained how his logic about the phone thing is contradictory. Why did he pick the phone posting, out of all the excuses v7 was giving, as the ONE that he believed and not any of the others? Then he said "Extremely big change [in tone]", without explaining it. I don't see an extremely big change in tone, aside from the situation being different because he's under pressure, and the fact that it looks like a phone post because of the typos. Nothing about that "case" was vote worthy. I certainly don't fault people for voting for a guy who wasn't posting at all, but those reasons ZB gave feel extremely forced and fake. Ok, so with the Node knowledge, where does that leave you exactly? And what do you see as the scum motivation for coming up with reasons you deem ridiculous, when he could easily have said anything much more sensible sounding if he just wanted to hammer? Actually that question is kinda icky, but I'd like you to answer anyways | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 24 2012 00:26 Z-BosoN wrote: Anyways, I'm really interested at why drazak is inactive. He really has some clearing up to do. Marv, what do you make of my pre-night post on him? While I was making that case I had trouble drawing any strong conclusions. You had trouble drawing strong conclusions because it's hard to distinguish between simply a newbie newbin' and scummy newbin' He's out in the big bad world of non-newbie games now, and that's a bit of a shock to the system. On like my 3rd game? I think of TL Mafia, I got mislynched for the only time as town because I casted around like a directionless balloon, even though in my newbie game I'd made a good case on scum and argued for my life at LYLO to get the win. The biggest thing I take from your segment is the part where he's "less afraid to post" but then at the same time is thinking about how he/people appear to others. Plus it doesn't line up with his more recent play, where he's been cajoled to post rather than doing so freely. I've been leaning town because of sincerity and investment, but the more time goes by the less invested he seems. And it's a simple fact that in general scum find it much harder to post than town (you'll find practically no-one who gets longer filters with scum than town). Basically I really want the dude to fucking post, because lynching a lurking newbie Day 2 feels terribly risky without more stuff to get a read on. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 24 2012 01:51 Keirathi wrote: About the Node thing: I think the difference to me is that he specifically said that he was voting Node for being a lurker and disappearing. But when it came down to it, that wasn't enough to keep his vote there, and he changed to coag who he thought had actually BEEN scummy, not just lurking. In this game, he had cases on me, austin, and Hapa (maybe more? I don't remember ight off), but in the end he voted for the lurker for some contrived reasoning. As for the scum motivation: I don't actually think he was planning to hammer then, exactly. His "case" came just 9 minutes after Hapa tossed his vote down. What I think happened is that scum ZB was feeling pressured for being so heavily on v7 for such little reasoning, so he looked hard to come up with ANY kind of vindication for his read. Then when he posted, he saw that Hapa had already voted, and took the opportunity to throw the hammer and at least buy himself another day to talk himself out of getting lynched. Hum, this actually reads pretty reasonable, I'll take another look when I'm at home. And hapa, you best have some fucking good shit to back that up (you don't, coz i'm town), because if I can't see how you've reasonably arrived at that conclusion I'm coming after you, and hard. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 24 2012 02:05 Hapahauli wrote: Don't you worry, I have some good stuff - it'll take me pretty long to compile though so I can't work on that in class atm. Howwwwweva, my read on iamperfection is much stronger - what are your thoughts on him? Lastly, I find it odd that you chose to go after me with that remark (apparently you're suggesting that me having a scumread on you = me being scummy?) instead of commenting on iamperfection at all. Yes, quite frankly I am suspicious of you for having a scumread on me, when I can't reasonably see how you got there. What you've said about me goes directly against how I'm feeling about the game. I guess I'll wait for your accusations and then respond. I've not commented on iamp because for him I'd have to go look at his filter to see what you're getting at and make my own conclusions, because so far I've been getting townie vibes from him. That will have to wait until I'm home from work. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 24 2012 02:41 austinmcc wrote: Tee hee. Kind of weird that a couple people have popped up with recent thoughts that marv might be scum. By process of elimination I was kind of coming down to drazak/marv with outside chances on iamp/hapa/keir. One reason I asked iamp about the whole "scum teammate wouldn't let drazak say this stuff" is that it's a reason to like a drazak/marv scumteam. Marv wasn't around early to stop drazak, drazak has since posted little and mostly clammed up. I can't find a chunk of time to write out full thoughts until a little later though. this might be the stupidest thing i ever read. anyways, worktime finished. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 24 2012 01:47 Hapahauli wrote: Regarding my Scumreads Iamperfection Marvellosity The gist of it is that Marv's posting is really detached from this game, and is something I never see in his town games, but very frequently in his "lazier" scumgames. Iamperfection also has this golden post here: ...where he basically calls Kei scum outright on Day 1 yet keeps his vote on v7 the entire day. I'm also sure I'm not mis-interpreting his "candle-light vigil" comment since he clarified his scumread on Kei here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=31#607 Also, I noticed that he had an "FOS" on me right after the lynch deadline, but has done nothing so far to push his read, despite me not posting in the thread at all in the last ~16 hours or so. He's also just really really sure about Draz being town, which is odd to me. I know I had a town read on Draz before, but so clearly declaring him town is completely unjustified in light of his complete absence from the thread after early D1. Hapa, you've gravely misrepresented what happened in the thread. Like Kei the strongest point looked to be the vader/kei thing. So I dug through his filter to look for how hard he was going at either. + Show Spoiler + On October 21 2012 12:36 iamperfection wrote: As for scum i really like the points that austin brought up about vaderseven. He really talks about himself a lot in his first few posts and not really much at all concerning this game I wants this sob to talk. ## Vote Vaderseven On October 21 2012 23:23 iamperfection wrote: guys guys guys me keen detective mind has picked up on something. Vaderseven said he would post after work and you look through the thread VERY closely you will notice that he in fact did not do that. I don't know what kind of job vader has but ill i know is i went to bed and he hadn't posted and he has still not posted after i have gotten up. Seriously though i think that saying your gonna do something and not doing it is one of the worst things you can do. Its a stalling tactic and i DEMAND vaderseven get in here and fast preferably . On October 22 2012 02:12 iamperfection wrote: bullshit he is scum for what he has done in this game. his posts are basically all talking about himself and he barely commented on anything else Also dont you think he would learn from his failure from last game and wouldn't do what he did. V7 is scum for his actions in this game. and....... this is a phone post if i ever saw one Meaning he has the ability to check the thread. The least he could do is check in.He hasn't. i have a big scum read on him. On October 22 2012 09:21 iamperfection wrote: still would rather have v7 go over anybody though On October 22 2012 11:00 iamperfection wrote: I cant believe if you have read the thread like you said you had you cant come up with anything besides draz a little scummy You now move from my scum category to super scum category. come back like hapa said with something or don't come back at all. On October 22 2012 11:16 iamperfection wrote: yes i think refusal to give reads on players is bullshit and its scum behavior. Same goes for you Keirathi. On October 22 2012 22:47 iamperfection wrote: i would hold a candle light vigil in your honor if you flipped town. i think its a moot point to keep hammering this point. you even said yourself its a terrible mindset that has gotten you lynched in the past. also its concerning that you called out for it in gsl I. you were scum remember. Me representing the town i am asking you to change nay begging you to change. If you are scum continue i have no problem pushing a lynch on you at this point. Shape up or die. The spoiler above contains the most pertinent posts regarding vader and Keirathi up to the post that you quote as 'golden'. iamp is pushing vader pretty hard for not contributing anything, and only towards the end, does he start pushing Keirathi for the same reason: "Same for you Keirathi" Keirathi then asks iamp, "what would you do if I flipped town?" and iamp responded with his candelight vigil comment. The comment was not, as I read it, a statement of certainty, on its own, of how scummy he found Keirathi. It was a direct response to a question which... how are you supposed to answer? If you asked me what would I do if I lynched you and you flipped town, what exactly would you be expecting me to say in this situation? vader was clearly iamp's main scumread through day 1, and this is clear to anyone looking at his filter with any sort of critical, or even just browsing, eye. The fact that you're representing otherwise is downright scummy and I want an explanation. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 24 2012 04:15 austinmcc wrote: Marv ... I'm always paranoid about marv because of the first game we played. Here are some general thoughts, things for everyone to keep in mind: Almost half of Drazak's filter is before marv posted in this game. More than half of Drazak's filter is before marv got active this game (he came back but went to sleep or whatever). That's just a thing. It's only relevant IF Drazak flips red, and even though it's not super indicative of anything, but when I think "Why wouldn't scum 2 be reigning in scumDrazak?" one obvious answer is "Scum 2 wasn't around yet." Marv fits the bill of someone who wasn't around. Marv has to play odd this game. I think a lot of the thread has read/played in games he was in. Some players have been scum with him. Even if you can't fully identify scumMarv and townMarv, marv has trouble this game because he may well be a lynch on D3 or D4. If game not solved or marv not shot, probably scum marv at that point, that whole argument. In this game, that's a HUGE liability for scum. 1/2 of scum being certain to get killed D3 or D4 as policy? No bueno. It means scumMarv, with a newbie scumbuddy, CANNOT BUS LIKE NORMAL. Scummarv likes bussing weak scum players, but he can't this game, because there's too much risk. Late game he'll probably get killed, so he can't bus the only other scum. Therefore, scummarv can't go with his normal game plan. Don't look for game plan, don't look for meta, blah blah blah. Just look for contributions. Look for how he feels. I don't love the way he's staying back this game, making friends, cracking jokes, etc. One way to get around the policy lynch later is to seem like you're distracted this game. Miss some D1, gotta be absent for part of game later, no strong reads, etc. etc. That way it doesn't look as odd that you've not been NKed after a couple nights. Really, scummarv would have 2 options - play SUPER townie and try not to get policy lynched, or sit back and hope to make the argument that his play this game hasn't warranted a NK, therefore don't policy lynch him. So anyway, getting to the point. I'm wary of marv. I'm wary of marv every game, but THIS game in particular throws a wrench into the way he normally plays scum. It's more difficult for him to bus his ONLY teammate. It's much more difficult to throw off the policy lynch, because we've got some strong townies but nobody... S class? No vets that are almost sure to die N1 because scum just can't leave them up. He's in an odd position this game IF he's scum. Okay so, there are some dumb thoughts. I haven't always agreed with his thought processes this game, I don't like that he found v7 scummy for things I found townie, I don't like that he finds Drazak townie off some of his contributions when I get hung up on those weird outside-the-game posts. But oh well, that doesn't make marv scum. It just makes me wary, and it makes me really think about how he would have to play a 2-scum game this game. If you're town marv, then this is still what you get for LV. Eventually I'll get over it, but your play this game has been interesting. I don't care if you've been low involvement in other town games, or been busy, or whatever. It feels very backseat-y, very joke-y and friendly at times (yes you've thrown some insults as well), which gets the thought stuck in my head that you're trying to avoid some kind of policy lynch on yourself. LV: never forget. I've greened the stuff that I'm mainly gonna talk about with you. I'm going to play your little game of hypotheticals, if only to explain my "stupidest thing I ever read" comment either. I can basically accept your premise that if I were scum, it would be very difficult for me to bus, due to my eminently policy-lynchable status - if I'm around at 1 scum endgame lylo, something is probably a bit dodgy. Right. What I completely disagree with, what is flat out wrong, and I'm incredulous you're thinking that way, is that I would be telling drazak to clam up. Read my god-damn scum QTs. In Liquid City I absolutely railed at talismania for not posting, I told him he was playing against win-con and it was a disgrace. I repeatedly told ShiaoPi that he had to post MORE, at one point he asked me if he had to contribute before bed, and I told him to fucking do it. When it was clear I was going to die I told him again that I wouldn't be around to make him post more and he'd have to do it himself. One of the primary things I do in scumQTs is tell people to post post post. The idea that I would be telling drazak to NOT post is mindboggling. Surely turning him into a lurker is not going to win us the game if I'm getting policy lynched at some point. It just makes no sense. Do you see why I called you stupid now, dopeybrains? To touch on policy lynch again, just on me, I'm gonna look superbad if I'm around in a 1 scum lylo ('S' class townies if you will). Mainly because, imo, from scum's point of view, leaving me alive at any point, especially later, is pretty dangerous because as time goes on the likelihood increases that I'm gonna get my shit together and solve the game. Anyway, I'd love to be looking super townie, because one thing I usually do reasonably well as town is remove myself as a scum candidate. Apparently I'm not doing so well at that this game, and it's a source of massive fucking frustration for me. I'd love to be domineering town-marv who knows what's up. Unfortunately this game I don't have a really firm grasp of what's going on and it's a lot more annoying for me than it is for any of you. Put yourself in my shoes and imagine how arrogant-marv feels about being unsure about shit. I'm doing my absolute best to try to figure out what's what, and so far I've been having a bad game and it sucks. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 24 2012 06:35 Hapahauli wrote: @ Marv Regarding iamp's "candle-light" thing, I initially thought that was the case as well (responding to Kei). However, iamperfection's more recent post (his clarification of that post) suggests my interpretation: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=31#607 In it, he very clearly refers to that post as having a scumread on him. Regarding misrepresenting iamp's suspicions (in particular the vote on v7 vs. Kei's suspicions) Yah that's totally my bad. However, my other points still stand, namely his random FOS on me, his town read on Draz, and more recently, his uncharacteristically passive defense. And btw, I find it funny you still haven't commented on iamperfection's alignment at all. But I'm working on a case on you anyway - it'll take a little while to type. He can very well have a scumread on him, that's not even dispute, but it was clear that vader was his biggest scumread. It's plastered all over his filter. The random FoS is meh and he's gone about his townread on draz in a way I'd expect a town iamp to do. His uncharacteristically passive defence is something I'll have to think about some. I think iamp is town, and I think YOU have a higher chance of flipping scum than he does. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
One small tidbit I would note right now - my filter in Death Note over 7 cycles (taking out post-game talk) is as long as my filter is here during Night 1. That's a whole different level of investment. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 24 2012 07:37 Keirathi wrote: And, a non-rhetorical question: you were in GSL 1. v7 early in day1 made small chit-chat, then did nothing but talk about Risen. Day2, he said "I'll be back later to give reads" and then disappeared until 10 minutes before the deadline. Did that never even give you pause here? Yes it gave me pause, but the main thrust of my read on vader was never simply the absence. Read my posts and you can see that. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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marvellosity
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How am I disinterested?? | ||
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marvellosity
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