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Marv ...
I'm always paranoid about marv because of the first game we played. Here are some general thoughts, things for everyone to keep in mind:
Almost half of Drazak's filter is before marv posted in this game. More than half of Drazak's filter is before marv got active this game (he came back but went to sleep or whatever). That's just a thing. It's only relevant IF Drazak flips red, and even though it's not super indicative of anything, but when I think "Why wouldn't scum 2 be reigning in scumDrazak?" one obvious answer is "Scum 2 wasn't around yet." Marv fits the bill of someone who wasn't around.
Marv has to play odd this game. I think a lot of the thread has read/played in games he was in. Some players have been scum with him. Even if you can't fully identify scumMarv and townMarv, marv has trouble this game because he may well be a lynch on D3 or D4. If game not solved or marv not shot, probably scum marv at that point, that whole argument. In this game, that's a HUGE liability for scum. 1/2 of scum being certain to get killed D3 or D4 as policy? No bueno. It means scumMarv, with a newbie scumbuddy, CANNOT BUS LIKE NORMAL. Scummarv likes bussing weak scum players, but he can't this game, because there's too much risk. Late game he'll probably get killed, so he can't bus the only other scum.
Therefore, scummarv can't go with his normal game plan. Don't look for game plan, don't look for meta, blah blah blah. Just look for contributions. Look for how he feels. I don't love the way he's staying back this game, making friends, cracking jokes, etc. One way to get around the policy lynch later is to seem like you're distracted this game. Miss some D1, gotta be absent for part of game later, no strong reads, etc. etc. That way it doesn't look as odd that you've not been NKed after a couple nights. Really, scummarv would have 2 options - play SUPER townie and try not to get policy lynched, or sit back and hope to make the argument that his play this game hasn't warranted a NK, therefore don't policy lynch him.
So anyway, getting to the point. I'm wary of marv. I'm wary of marv every game, but THIS game in particular throws a wrench into the way he normally plays scum. It's more difficult for him to bus his ONLY teammate. It's much more difficult to throw off the policy lynch, because we've got some strong townies but nobody... S class? No vets that are almost sure to die N1 because scum just can't leave them up. He's in an odd position this game IF he's scum.
Okay so, there are some dumb thoughts. I haven't always agreed with his thought processes this game, I don't like that he found v7 scummy for things I found townie, I don't like that he finds Drazak townie off some of his contributions when I get hung up on those weird outside-the-game posts. But oh well, that doesn't make marv scum. It just makes me wary, and it makes me really think about how he would have to play a 2-scum game this game.
If you're town marv, then this is still what you get for LV. Eventually I'll get over it, but your play this game has been interesting. I don't care if you've been low involvement in other town games, or been busy, or whatever. It feels very backseat-y, very joke-y and friendly at times (yes you've thrown some insults as well), which gets the thought stuck in my head that you're trying to avoid some kind of policy lynch on yourself.
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Finally, roles and claims
We may have a doc, we may have a cop. We may have neither. Cop has a lot of good checks, in both people that probably won't get lynched but aren't doing a lot, to make sure we have some green checks and can go into D3 with a couple confirmed townies or something.
I'd <3 doc protection, but we've had a couple people contribute a good bit and any of them are good choices.
I like the idea of a cop checking marv, it gets that whole question out of the way, and we can be sure of his alignment later (no framers, no godfathers, mafia's only chance to stop a cop check is to play "guess the cop" and get a RB). Consider that. If we can lynch scum tomorrow, a marv check would solve all the problems about taking marv to D3 or D4. We'd know his alignment, and we'd have already lynched 1/2 the scumteam, so a claim wouldn't be that bad.
In terms of claims in general, don't be too paranoid. Especially if we can get rid of a single scum, or if someone else is claiming and very well could be fake, I think we may want early claims. We're at 6/2, 5/2 if there's an NK. Being able to narrow down a field of 7 to a field of 5 for the lynch tomorrow would be nice. If we go an extra day it's even nicer. And since the cop is very powerful in this setup, given no framers and no gf, you either need breadcrumbs that will become obvious or to claim before you think you've got a chance of dying. Obvious breadcrumbs are dangerous, so an earlier claim is probably better.
Anyway, ta da! Cop should check marv if we have it. That's going to be our biggest headache imo. And people should feel free to claim earlier than they think they should, because the game is so small.
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Sorry for the spam, but the whole bit was very uninteractive. Again, I'm around for a little over an hour and then have to go, but I'm checking thread and happy to flesh out anything that doesn't make sense, or seriously talk about drazak/marv/other candidates.
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On October 24 2012 04:29 Keirathi wrote:
@austin: you realize cop, if we have one, is parity cop. Right? It's a pretty significant distinction.
Nope, I don't, because I'm a tard.
No wonder cop seemed so strong in this setup, lol.
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So scratch all that. Early claims great for taking yourself out of the lynch equation, but less so for getting a check or two off the table. Probably best to wait until like..D4 if you can, but that's a long way out.
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Hapa, does iamperfection's very early vote on DP affect your read at all?
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On October 24 2012 06:31 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 04:39 austinmcc wrote:
Hapa, does iamperfection's very early vote on DP affect your read at all? No, he's capable of doing that as both alignments. He voted early as scum in Aperture 2 Mafia, and votes early as town a lot in his other games. In fact, I find him pointing to his GSL II meta in his defense really odd, since Aperture 2 was his most recent scumgame. Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 04:24 Keirathi wrote:On October 24 2012 02:27 Hapahauli wrote:On October 24 2012 02:19 Keirathi wrote:
Where did I ever say I had a strong town read on iamp? I said I had a slightly town read on him for the early tone of his posting, but that his later posting feels much more careful and like his scum tone. Thoughts on my iamp case good sir? I think your point about iamp calling me scum but keeping his vote on v7 would be the strongest point you made, BUT, he also said he had a very strong scum read on v7. It would make sense, if iamp is town, to leave his vote on one strong read when the other strong read isn't gaining any traction. This is a valid point, however, I still think he's scum for additional reasons mentioned in my case (strangely confident Draz town read, un-pushed FOS on me). I also liked the point about how apologetic he is that you brought up. It's very different from townie iamp. His entire defense to me also has been really really passive, which IMO confirms my read on him.
On phone. I know he had the early vote in aperture, but that's a game I don't want to draw parallels from really because he got injured and couldn't really play. I'll take another look at gsl2, died too early to get a feel for his play after d1 but I remember his posting d1 being almost entirely one-liners that didn't say much
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(1) Someone is sexy. (or mafia didn't send in an NK...)
(2) Steaks in South Korea are crazy expensive.
(3) See (1)
I'll look more at marv and engage in discussion on/with him when I'm up and caffeinated. I was mainly worried through process of elimination, but I want to read your cases more closely and have time to go bounce back and forth between other games that you're pulling posts from.
In the same way you want comments on your marv case, I'd like someone else to look at those drazak comments, and specifically at whether they actually strike you as similar to odd comments that scum has made in other games. I don't think they're entirely analogous, and I worry that I'm trying so hard to find someone in his filter that sways me one way or the other that I'm stretching. Would like other sets of eyes on that.
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On October 24 2012 06:54 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 04:15 austinmcc wrote:
Marv ...
I'm always paranoid about marv because of the first game we played. Here are some general thoughts, things for everyone to keep in mind:
Almost half of Drazak's filter is before marv posted in this game. More than half of Drazak's filter is before marv got active this game (he came back but went to sleep or whatever). That's just a thing. It's only relevant IF Drazak flips red, and even though it's not super indicative of anything, but when I think "Why wouldn't scum 2 be reigning in scumDrazak?" one obvious answer is "Scum 2 wasn't around yet." Marv fits the bill of someone who wasn't around.
Marv has to play odd this game. I think a lot of the thread has read/played in games he was in. Some players have been scum with him. Even if you can't fully identify scumMarv and townMarv, marv has trouble this game because he may well be a lynch on D3 or D4. If game not solved or marv not shot, probably scum marv at that point, that whole argument. In this game, that's a HUGE liability for scum. 1/2 of scum being certain to get killed D3 or D4 as policy? No bueno. It means scumMarv, with a newbie scumbuddy, CANNOT BUS LIKE NORMAL. Scummarv likes bussing weak scum players, but he can't this game, because there's too much risk. Late game he'll probably get killed, so he can't bus the only other scum.
Therefore, scummarv can't go with his normal game plan. Don't look for game plan, don't look for meta, blah blah blah. Just look for contributions. Look for how he feels. I don't love the way he's staying back this game, making friends, cracking jokes, etc. One way to get around the policy lynch later is to seem like you're distracted this game. Miss some D1, gotta be absent for part of game later, no strong reads, etc. etc. That way it doesn't look as odd that you've not been NKed after a couple nights. Really, scummarv would have 2 options - play SUPER townie and try not to get policy lynched, or sit back and hope to make the argument that his play this game hasn't warranted a NK, therefore don't policy lynch him.
So anyway, getting to the point. I'm wary of marv. I'm wary of marv every game, but THIS game in particular throws a wrench into the way he normally plays scum. It's more difficult for him to bus his ONLY teammate. It's much more difficult to throw off the policy lynch, because we've got some strong townies but nobody... S class? No vets that are almost sure to die N1 because scum just can't leave them up. He's in an odd position this game IF he's scum.
Okay so, there are some dumb thoughts. I haven't always agreed with his thought processes this game, I don't like that he found v7 scummy for things I found townie, I don't like that he finds Drazak townie off some of his contributions when I get hung up on those weird outside-the-game posts. But oh well, that doesn't make marv scum. It just makes me wary, and it makes me really think about how he would have to play a 2-scum game this game.
If you're town marv, then this is still what you get for LV. Eventually I'll get over it, but your play this game has been interesting. I don't care if you've been low involvement in other town games, or been busy, or whatever. It feels very backseat-y, very joke-y and friendly at times (yes you've thrown some insults as well), which gets the thought stuck in my head that you're trying to avoid some kind of policy lynch on yourself. LV: never forget. What I completely disagree with, what is flat out wrong, and I'm incredulous you're thinking that way, is that I would be telling drazak to clam up. Read my god-damn scum QTs. In Liquid City I absolutely railed at talismania for not posting, I told him he was playing against win-con and it was a disgrace. I repeatedly told ShiaoPi that he had to post MORE, at one point he asked me if he had to contribute before bed, and I told him to fucking do it. When it was clear I was going to die I told him again that I wouldn't be around to make him post more and he'd have to do it himself. One of the primary things I do in scumQTs is tell people to post post post. The idea that I would be telling drazak to NOT post is mindboggling. Surely turning him into a lurker is not going to win us the game if I'm getting policy lynched at some point. It just makes no sense. Do you see why I called you stupid now, dopeybrains? I wanted to touch on this because I saw it had been posted but I couldn't respond earlier. I actually did read your LC QT. I'll go give it another look. I do remember you pushing for activity, but I also know that you were pissed at talis for not looking like town talis. To some extent, I think there's a distinction between pushing for just activity from scumbuddies and pushing for scumbuddies to stop looking like scum, and to post more similarly to/in amount similarly to how they do as town. I'll have more fully formed thoughts on this after rereading that.
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On October 24 2012 09:39 Hapahauli wrote:
Oh, and can you refer me to what post in particular you're talking about austin (regarding Drazak)?
And the above post was directed at marv ofc.
Specifically the 2 quotes that I pull out, which I find similar to odd defenses/comments that other scum players have made in the past + Show Spoiler +On October 24 2012 04:07 austinmcc wrote:I don't support/like/whatever this "Drazak has been mislynched before for looking scummy, therefore we shouldn't lynch him for looking scummy" argument. We can't fully determine his alignment right now. Based on how this game has played out during a long D1 and now N1, we're not GOING to be able to fully determine his alignment, because he's not posting much at all. He's going to come up every day. He's going to be a mislynch candidate, sure, but best to get him out of the way before LYLO, and he's also a scum candidate. You guys may not have as many town reads as I do, but we're in a very small game. If you've got 2-3 town reads and know you're town, you've seriously narrowed down the options for possible scum. Things are narrow enough in my mind that "doesn't seem townie" + "not many options" + the stuff below = probably scum Drazak. Here's why I'm concerned about Drazak mainly. He was relatively active in the beginning. Since then, he's clammed up significantly. I was hoping he'd start posting more, especially if people weren't jumping all over him, because yeah, it's difficult to get a read on him right now. But the part of his filter that keeps sticking out to me are things like: Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:50 drazak wrote:
Not to defend hapa too much, but I know when I've read things, I think different things whehter or not I'm hungry, or if other things are going on in my life, maybe he reconsidered after reading something again. Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:32 drazak wrote:On October 23 2012 05:27 Hapahauli wrote:On October 23 2012 05:27 iamperfection wrote:
Posting from phone dont lynch z-bos wait untll I get home please. So you don't find him scummy then? Do tell. I don't think he doesn't find him scummy, he just doesn't want the hammer while he's afk, might have someone else he finds scummier. those read very scummy to me because of statements in recent games. I can't NOT look at those and see: Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 17:40 Node wrote:
I don't think Shady Sands is scum -- at least, not given what we've seen so far. His "trolling" antics were silly, but they weren't scummy. If he were scum, I don't think he would've dropped the trolling pretext so quickly, and I certainly don't think he would be willing to reappear and start pushing targets.
Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 05:29 Sinensis wrote:On September 28 2012 04:46 phagga wrote:
Sinensis, while you are here, I would like to know your stance on Ottoxlol. I think Ottoxlol believes he's being unfairly voted for. I'm null on him. I think the worst thing he's done is instead of formulating a proper defense (against something that really didn't need defending against), he tried to shift the blame onto others...BUT he wasn't trying to shift the blame onto 1 or 2 other people, he was trying to shift the blame back onto everyone. That's why I think he just believes he's being treated unfairly and is just lashing out at everyone else. This doesn't strike me as scummy so much as just bad town play. Aside from that all he's done is be critical of SnB's play. Which I understand because SnB has been posting weird stuff this game. First there was the random lynch suggestion. He posted this too: On September 27 2012 05:22 strongandbig wrote:
what about vt's fakeclaiming boxer
lets all claim boxer I've said a lot already about why VTs shouldn't be fake claiming. Was SnB fishing for people to agree with him or is he suggesting something that benefits mafia on purpose? ANYWAY I just think Ottoxlol is understandably concerned with SnB's play, and I think in the future Ottoxlol should start making proper defenses instead of blaming everyone else. To me, defending people out of nowhere for odd reasons - Node defending Shady for things he hadn't done, Sinensis saying things like "I think Ottoxlol believes he's being unfairly voted for" stick out. Townies read posts, townies make reads, townies justify their reads with posts. Scum knows alignments, scum sometimes justify reads out of nowhere with...non-post stuff? They're trying to give a read but it's clear that they're not getting it from the same place a town player would be. Drazak's comments feel like that. Hapa made a comment about leaving to eat, and Drazak partially defends him by saying that he thinks differently whether he's hungry or full. It's like...a very odd reason to justify what someone was poking at hapa about. It's not intra-thread, it's this weird external defense. The bit on Z-BosoN is...not as good, that comment isn't as out of place, but again it's like...Drazak explaining something based on stuff that wasn't in thread. Just those two posts are enough to make me scummy on Drazak, enough to lynch because there are so few other options. It's also just very simple. I've had better luck with simple reads (Quick readthrough of GSL Open 2 N1 before dying, quick readthrough of Liquid City D1 after being absent (although LC not as much because I went crazy the next day)) than I have with overly complex ones. So I'm going to go with my gut and say that the simple weird statements and outside-the-game comments make him scum.
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I'm not voting right now. I'm seriously leaving this until morning, ~13 hours for now. Then I'll look through it, discuss, get involved with the marv bit.
I would assume that the rest of the votes aren't going to jump onto marv with no warning, but yeah, given how quickly v7 picked up his last couple, it would be nice if nobody jumped the gun.
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On October 24 2012 10:25 drazak wrote:
DP bro, sorry that I had a life and that it snuck up on me, wish I didn't have to be afk for as long as I did, but with my laptop giving me issues I have to be at my desktop to post, I read a little bit of the thread on my phone but I had to reread it to make sure I had it when I was on my pc. while you may classify voting for marv as "sheeping" look at his filter, he's got no good defense to hapa's accusation, he says that hapa is cherry picking cases, but if he is then there should be ample evidence to the contrary regarding his meta.
Would you care to choose some posts you believe to be marv's defense, quote them, and explain why they are not good?
Would you care to pick out specific parts of hapa's case that you agree with?
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There is more to Drazak than that post. I would still like to hear thoughts on the quotes that felt scummy to me.
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On October 24 2012 10:30 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:28 austinmcc wrote:
There is more to Drazak than that post. I would still like to hear thoughts on the quotes that felt scummy to me. Which post are you talking about? I'd look, but I've been filter diving through marv's meta for hours >>
You or someone asked about that a moment ago and I quoted it and stuck it in a spoiler! And by you or someone, I mean...you. You asked.
On October 24 2012 09:44 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 09:39 Hapahauli wrote:
Oh, and can you refer me to what post in particular you're talking about austin (regarding Drazak)?
And the above post was directed at marv ofc. Specifically the 2 quotes that I pull out, which I find similar to odd defenses/comments that other scum players have made in the past + Show Spoiler +On October 24 2012 04:07 austinmcc wrote:I don't support/like/whatever this "Drazak has been mislynched before for looking scummy, therefore we shouldn't lynch him for looking scummy" argument. We can't fully determine his alignment right now. Based on how this game has played out during a long D1 and now N1, we're not GOING to be able to fully determine his alignment, because he's not posting much at all. He's going to come up every day. He's going to be a mislynch candidate, sure, but best to get him out of the way before LYLO, and he's also a scum candidate. You guys may not have as many town reads as I do, but we're in a very small game. If you've got 2-3 town reads and know you're town, you've seriously narrowed down the options for possible scum. Things are narrow enough in my mind that "doesn't seem townie" + "not many options" + the stuff below = probably scum Drazak. Here's why I'm concerned about Drazak mainly. He was relatively active in the beginning. Since then, he's clammed up significantly. I was hoping he'd start posting more, especially if people weren't jumping all over him, because yeah, it's difficult to get a read on him right now. But the part of his filter that keeps sticking out to me are things like: Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:50 drazak wrote:
Not to defend hapa too much, but I know when I've read things, I think different things whehter or not I'm hungry, or if other things are going on in my life, maybe he reconsidered after reading something again. Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:32 drazak wrote:On October 23 2012 05:27 Hapahauli wrote:On October 23 2012 05:27 iamperfection wrote:
Posting from phone dont lynch z-bos wait untll I get home please. So you don't find him scummy then? Do tell. I don't think he doesn't find him scummy, he just doesn't want the hammer while he's afk, might have someone else he finds scummier. those read very scummy to me because of statements in recent games. I can't NOT look at those and see: Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 17:40 Node wrote:
I don't think Shady Sands is scum -- at least, not given what we've seen so far. His "trolling" antics were silly, but they weren't scummy. If he were scum, I don't think he would've dropped the trolling pretext so quickly, and I certainly don't think he would be willing to reappear and start pushing targets.
Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 05:29 Sinensis wrote:On September 28 2012 04:46 phagga wrote:
Sinensis, while you are here, I would like to know your stance on Ottoxlol. I think Ottoxlol believes he's being unfairly voted for. I'm null on him. I think the worst thing he's done is instead of formulating a proper defense (against something that really didn't need defending against), he tried to shift the blame onto others...BUT he wasn't trying to shift the blame onto 1 or 2 other people, he was trying to shift the blame back onto everyone. That's why I think he just believes he's being treated unfairly and is just lashing out at everyone else. This doesn't strike me as scummy so much as just bad town play. Aside from that all he's done is be critical of SnB's play. Which I understand because SnB has been posting weird stuff this game. First there was the random lynch suggestion. He posted this too: On September 27 2012 05:22 strongandbig wrote:
what about vt's fakeclaiming boxer
lets all claim boxer I've said a lot already about why VTs shouldn't be fake claiming. Was SnB fishing for people to agree with him or is he suggesting something that benefits mafia on purpose? ANYWAY I just think Ottoxlol is understandably concerned with SnB's play, and I think in the future Ottoxlol should start making proper defenses instead of blaming everyone else. To me, defending people out of nowhere for odd reasons - Node defending Shady for things he hadn't done, Sinensis saying things like "I think Ottoxlol believes he's being unfairly voted for" stick out. Townies read posts, townies make reads, townies justify their reads with posts. Scum knows alignments, scum sometimes justify reads out of nowhere with...non-post stuff? They're trying to give a read but it's clear that they're not getting it from the same place a town player would be. Drazak's comments feel like that. Hapa made a comment about leaving to eat, and Drazak partially defends him by saying that he thinks differently whether he's hungry or full. It's like...a very odd reason to justify what someone was poking at hapa about. It's not intra-thread, it's this weird external defense. The bit on Z-BosoN is...not as good, that comment isn't as out of place, but again it's like...Drazak explaining something based on stuff that wasn't in thread. Just those two posts are enough to make me scummy on Drazak, enough to lynch because there are so few other options. It's also just very simple. I've had better luck with simple reads (Quick readthrough of GSL Open 2 N1 before dying, quick readthrough of Liquid City D1 after being absent (although LC not as much because I went crazy the next day)) than I have with overly complex ones. So I'm going to go with my gut and say that the simple weird statements and outside-the-game comments make him scum.
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On October 24 2012 10:34 drazak wrote:
So austin, you're saying I made posts like the posts I made when I was town? So you're saying I'm fitting my town meta?
?
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On October 24 2012 10:37 drazak wrote:
Austin, you quoted my posts from my games where I say things like "I don't think his vote this" etc, I'm town this game, and saying those things that I said when I was town in those games.
I quoted two of your posts from this game...
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I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS AND I DO NOT LIKE IT.
That is two posts of yours. They are from this game. The one we're playing now. You wrote those things.
I then quote two posts from OTHER people in OTHER games. 1 from Node. 1 from Sinensis. You are neither node nor sinensis.
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On October 24 2012 10:55 DarthPunk wrote:
Does anyone else see what I am seeing? Like. He is so scum, I don't even.. . BLEH
I don't feel as strongly about the night speculation, some players are just more speculate-y. Don't know about drazak in particular.
I'm thinking about this last bit.
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On October 24 2012 10:58 DarthPunk wrote:
Hint: There isn't any. It is pointless speculation. 1 person knows who saved him. and that is the medic.
Let's file this under "Thoughts you should have had a couple posts back and then STOPPED TYPING ABOUT."
I haven't made up my mind on what all this is yet.
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On October 24 2012 11:08 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Austin
Regarding those two quotes by Draz - I initially found them scummy, but honestly, he is very very capable of doing that as town. Furthermore, comparing Draz's scumplay to posts by Node and Sinesis (two more veteran players) is kinda ridiculous. He's not a veteran, and needs to be held to an appropriate standard.
But really, I'm starting to have a huge town read on him from his recent posting/defense. Look how quickly he's responding - this is dead on with his town meta, where he lurklurklurk's then is really open to defending himself (and instantly defends himself at that) the second he's called out.
I don't think of the comparison as something based on ... veterancy. I view it as just this weird thing that ALL scum players can fall victim to.
Scum knows Player X is town
Player X gets attacked
Scum chooses to defend Player X
Scum KNOWS X is town, rather than has a town read
So scum's defense is not fully based in-game, on things the thread can draw a read off of, but on assumptions/exaggerations/weirdness
I don't think falling into that pattern is a result of being a vet or not being a vet, it's just a result of being scum and knowing someone's alignment without having to follow along and develop an actual read on them for reasons.
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EPT
