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Back from lunch, looking at Z-BosoN and a couple others.
On October 23 2012 02:08 Hapahauli wrote:
Agree here, I'd like a flip as well. However, I do want to wait until we here some from v7. I think shooting for a 72-hour day at this point is realistic.
We are already at ... 65 hours.
Moreover, at least in GSL 2, thinking in terms of 72-hour days, or any specific time limit, instead of "We are the town and we should be lynching scum, at whatever point we find them" was not helpful to us.
I strongly believe that some of the apathy that seems to be a part of this game is because of the deadlines. There is no deadline rush, there is no reason for people to have to act NOW. Waiting x numbers of hours to do something, or aiming to end a day at a certain point in time, is malleable and generally has not been productive for us.
Once I go back through things and figure out who I'm willing to lynch, I feel like I'm just going to conclude all my posts with On March 13 2012 07:02 Palmar wrote:
Blood for the Blood God
Skulls for the Skull Throne
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Still think one of the people jumping on DP early is scum. Still like v7 and Keirathi for that person.
v7:
Find his return posts null. Sure, there's less information D1. But that's true for all of us. It's not a reason not to contribute, and I've yet to see a game play out where someone pushes a D1 candidate, D1 candidate flips town, and the pusher is immediately beset upon by the whole town with pitchforks in a lynching spree.
I still don't like the early interactions, I still wasn't voting him because of inactivity. Others seem to have been doing that though, and I actually don't want to push for a lynch in which some/many of the votes are going to be because of inactivity. I don't care if he was inactive in a town game, or a scum game, or whatever. The inactivity isn't really something I get a tell off of, only that I expect scum to have done something during a certain time frame, and he did something during that time frame.
Less so than before, because the way in which he's posted recently feels so null that I wouldn't expect that from a scum player coming back to thread? I'd expect either townie-smelling or scummy-smelling posts, and his were neither imo. Less scummy on him than before because of this, and so not going to push for a lynch on him when I don't like the reasoning behind some of the votes.
hapa:
Eh. Don't want to lynch. Voting a lot, which I like. Made an odd case/post on me, which felt odd, but not quite "forced." Will watch, but without going into oodles of detail, not a player I want to lynch today.
drazak:
His filter so eeeeeeeeempty. Basically no scumreads until yesterday, when v7 is scummy beause of inactivity (still don't like as a basis for a read). Then keir is "probably a little scummy" because of over-reaction and because of calling drazak scummy and then defending him. I keep writing off DP when he says he finds drazak scummy, but there's really no scumhunting in the guy's filter and what is there doesn't feel meaty. Not the amount, your filter can have small amounts of scumhunting meat, but it feels like drazak's filter is all vegetables. See previous post about blood and skulls, vegetables have neither.
I think you've been chided enough, or whatever, drazak, but it would be helpful if you would just toss more thoughts into thread. Either people you find scummy, or at the very least cases you like, reads you like, interesting things you're noting. Yes, some people will call you scummy for sheeping a case or a read or whatever, but who cares. Get active, get bloodthirsty. You're currently difficult to read but I'm not convinced you're scum.
Overall, do not want to lynch, but after reading through his filter I'm more inclined to view him as mafia. That probably sounds wishy washy. I don't care.
Keirathi and Z-BosoN thoughts coming, but splitting up these posts because thoughts on them will be longer.
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On October 23 2012 02:37 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:18 austinmcc wrote:Back from lunch, looking at Z-BosoN and a couple others. On October 23 2012 02:08 Hapahauli wrote:
Agree here, I'd like a flip as well. However, I do want to wait until we here some from v7. I think shooting for a 72-hour day at this point is realistic. We are already at ... 65 hours. Oh damn seriously? Time flies huh. Well I still want to wait for v7 to post. Also Z-Boson in light of recent suspicions. Show nested quote +Moreover, at least in GSL 2, thinking in terms of 72-hour days, or any specific time limit, instead of "We are the town and we should be lynching scum, at whatever point we find them" was not helpful to us.
I strongly believe that some of the apathy that seems to be a part of this game is because of the deadlines. There is no deadline rush, there is no reason for people to have to act NOW. Waiting x numbers of hours to do something, or aiming to end a day at a certain point in time, is malleable and generally has not been productive for us. I agree, but what's the remedy? Any suggestions how to take care of this?
(1) not suggesting we wait x hours
(2) getting scum to concede
We have no way of FORCING activity. We have no vigilantes to add town KP. We're stuck with what we have. The solution is to hope we've got a doc who can save an active townie or two, because at this rate if we lose 2 or so active townies to NKs then the game is going to go downhill FAST.
(3) Here's what I think the ACTUAL solution is. We discuss options for a little longer, and then we actually lynch someone. I would prefer to lynch scum, but will settle for scummy at this point even.
We just came out of a game that was crappy because of our own inactivity. This game was an invite game, in part, to cure that. And yet we're in a very similar situation. The solution is NOT to get angry and berate low activity players. The solution is not for every player to fill a post or two or three with whining about inactivity. The solution is for us to take it upon ourselves to craft an environment where people want to contribute, and do so.
So I think we lynch. I think we move forward. I think we all get our thoughts in the open, even if we think someone is going to leap on them for being scummy. Like, I was dithering yesterday over whether to just come out and suggest we lynch someone, even if it's a townie. I think we need that. I think we need to quit worrying about what's scummy or townie or anything, and get thoughts into the thread. We don't immediately gang up on anyone and shut them down if they post something scummy, because that actually seems to have been counterproductive. Everyone just stop being afraid of posting something, looking scummy, whatever, and play the game.
Bolded for my main thoughts.
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Keirathi:
I wrote some stuff here but it was super wishy-washy and it's just my thoughts that don't go anywhere. So instead, could you update your read on iamperfection, in long-form?
He's not being talked about, but you said he felt "kind of town" and noted that you felt confident in meta-reading him. Could you just blabber on in a post or two about what read you get from him based on his play this game and based on meta?
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On October 22 2012 04:25 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 04:01 austinmcc wrote:On October 22 2012 03:20 Z-BosoN wrote:Pretty much. It's more of the tone of his posts. On Liquid City, note how he finds a small breach in detail and immediately tunnels on it. He did the same thing in LVII against me. He demonstrates an aggressive, investigative style. This isn't what I'm viewing from him this game. He's being passive and inconclusive on his reads. His only vote is deemed a "provocation" one. I do not view it as a real attempt at pressure, and his general filter seems off. In my mind the townie austin would have been all over drazak or DP over something such as has happened in this game. Hmmm. I'm glad I don't seem crazy tunnelly. Look at Looney Lynching and my play there, or my comments in obs chat. Yes, I've been exceptionally tunnelly in some recent games. It didn't work out well. I'm curious though, why would you think townie austinmcc would be all over drazak or DP? Because some elements of what they said I figured you would be immediately on their tail.
Z-BosoN, could you answer this in more detail? Why would townie austin have been all over drazak and DP for their early posting?
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That's it for me right now. I'd like to hear response from keirathi and z-boson, and would love for EVERYONE to just vomit stuff into the thread, seriously. Please just share your thoughts, townies. scum, you should feel free to concede.
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On October 23 2012 03:32 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 03:17 austinmcc wrote:On October 22 2012 04:25 Z-BosoN wrote:On October 22 2012 04:01 austinmcc wrote:On October 22 2012 03:20 Z-BosoN wrote:Pretty much. It's more of the tone of his posts. On Liquid City, note how he finds a small breach in detail and immediately tunnels on it. He did the same thing in LVII against me. He demonstrates an aggressive, investigative style. This isn't what I'm viewing from him this game. He's being passive and inconclusive on his reads. His only vote is deemed a "provocation" one. I do not view it as a real attempt at pressure, and his general filter seems off. In my mind the townie austin would have been all over drazak or DP over something such as has happened in this game. Hmmm. I'm glad I don't seem crazy tunnelly. Look at Looney Lynching and my play there, or my comments in obs chat. Yes, I've been exceptionally tunnelly in some recent games. It didn't work out well. I'm curious though, why would you think townie austinmcc would be all over drazak or DP? Because some elements of what they said I figured you would be immediately on their tail. Z-BosoN, could you answer this in more detail? Why would townie austin have been all over drazak and DP for their early posting? Austin, in LVII you were going after me because I was asking about certain roles. Oh, and some other things that pretty much included everything I said. In Liquid City you went after me because I talked to Node. Do I really need to be more specific than that?
Yeah. I don't get where the Node stuff fits in. That was like...a one-time thought I've had (although I hope to find something like that again actually, just not where the person referencing the player I find scummy is doing so because the person I find scummy directly answered a question they asked). But that's off to the side.
I'm just...I can see the role stuff. So that's a reason I might have been on DP's case. Why drazak? And is it just that I was on you for asking about roles and DP was asking drazak his role? In my head those are slightly different things, in that DP wasn't asking questions but was just pure pure pure fishing. That may not be a difference that matters. But why drazak?
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On October 23 2012 03:34 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 03:14 austinmcc wrote:
Keirathi:
I wrote some stuff here but it was super wishy-washy and it's just my thoughts that don't go anywhere. So instead, could you update your read on iamperfection, in long-form?
He's not being talked about, but you said he felt "kind of town" and noted that you felt confident in meta-reading him. Could you just blabber on in a post or two about what read you get from him based on his play this game and based on meta? It's pretty easy. Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 10:01 iamperfection wrote:Im all for using votes to apply pressure and we don't have to worry about someone doing a stupid hammer it wont happen. However all this policy talk bores me time for some action.On October 20 2012 09:14 DarthPunk wrote:
Hi drazak? What is your role?
blatant blue hunting darthpunk. Why not ask alignment instead of role? Talk to me darthpunk i wish to know more. ## Vote DarthPunk Note the bolded. Scum iamp doesn't say things like that that could potentially make him look bad. It's basically the same read I had on him in Aperture, where I was wrong. The key difference, I think, is that he only had 4 posts and I made a snap judgement rather than basing it on an overall pattern, partly because GSL2 was still going on at the time and I was convinced he was scum in that game (which I was right about). He is very distinctly more carefree as town, while being careful as scum. Of course, I've told him this multiple times so he could potentially try to play differently, and his recent posting regarding me and v7 seems much more careful than his posting earlier in the day. So, I'm still slightly town on him and wouldn't want to lynch him today. If he is scum trying to play differently, I don't think he'll be able to keep it up for long.
Thanks. Is it possible for you to block your knowledge of the player, and tell me how you'd read him if you'd never played with him before, if some unknown name had made his posts this game?
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On October 23 2012 03:45 Z-BosoN wrote:
Of course they are different things. My town meta on you depicts a much more aggressive austin. DP and drazak gave you much room to be aggressive, yet you were not. You didn't do what I expected you to do, against my meta read on you. That's about it.
I don't see why you think this is important, though. If I were pushing a vote of you solely because of this, then you might have something to go on. I was satisfied with your looney filter and never breached that topic again. Entertain me with why you are so interested about it.
I'm trying to read you. Your comment about who I should be attacking sticks out to me. I personally disagree that I'd be going after those targets, but I don't know if: (1) I'm wrong; (2) you really think that and have reasons behind thinking that; or (3) you just tossed that comment out there without reasoning behind it.
You explaining yourself helps me choose between (1) or (2) vs. (3).
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On October 23 2012 03:56 Z-BosoN wrote:
It's not that you SHOULD be attacking them, when the fuck did I said that.
In my mind the townie austin would have been all over drazak or DP over something such as has happened in this game. I read that as "If austin were townie, he'd be attacking drazak and DP. He has not done so, which is part of why I think he's scummy."
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On October 23 2012 02:54 austinmcc wrote:
I think we all get our thoughts in the open, even if we think someone is going to leap on them for being scummy.
I think we need that. I think we need to quit worrying about what's scummy or townie or anything, and get thoughts into the thread.
We don't immediately gang up on anyone and shut them down if they post something scummy, because that actually seems to have been counterproductive.
Everyone just stop being afraid of posting something, looking scummy, whatever, and play the game.
Hapa and Keirathi, do you find the above to be a good plan of action?
If not, where would you make modifiations?
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On October 23 2012 05:23 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:56 austinmcc wrote:On October 23 2012 02:54 austinmcc wrote:
I think we all get our thoughts in the open, even if we think someone is going to leap on them for being scummy.
I think we need that. I think we need to quit worrying about what's scummy or townie or anything, and get thoughts into the thread.
We don't immediately gang up on anyone and shut them down if they post something scummy, because that actually seems to have been counterproductive.
Everyone just stop being afraid of posting something, looking scummy, whatever, and play the game. Hapa and Keirathi, do you find the above to be a good plan of action? If not, where would you make modifiations? Well I mean I don't think that would work out the way you intend it to. If we stop worrying about what's scummy or townie, how can we get thoughts into the thread? Playing the game by nature involves making judgements on this. I think we have a great little line of discussion going right now (Z-Bo case), and I'm not in the mood to talk policy right now. What do you think of Z-Bo?
The stop worrying about what's scummy or townie applies to ... people not writing down their thoughts? Maybe it's just me, but especially with stuff like being bloodthirsty, I don't think that's entirely a townie thought. It makes me not want to post it. Like, why would a townie post "I want to lynch someone, even if we're not entirely certain of their scumminess?"
I assume that not everyone is doing that, but I think that, to some extent, some of the folks with lower activity have points. Whenever they've posted, they get jumped on immediately. It makes them less likely to contribute, especially if they're town, because posting = getting shat on, and nobody taking their thoughts at face value. See above with v7 giving two reads and thread going "AMG TWO READS ONLY?!?!!? SCUMSCUMSCUMSCUMSCUM."
So I'm applying that to the actual thoughts themselves, not to...actual scumhunting. I'd rather everyone just POST, and others not just leap all over every thought going SCUM SCUM SCUM. It's something I've done. It's something I'm trying not to do here, because it's generally going to be counterproductive. You're going to tunnel without thinking things through fully AND you're going to disincentivize posting from the people you most want to post. Neither is good.
I'm suggesting not crapping on thoughts the moment they get posted. I'm suggesting that low activity posters, whether they like their reads or not, whether they find themselves wishy washy or without fully formed reads or WHATEVER, just go ahead and post them. drazak, keirathi, v7, etc.
Thoughts on Z-BosoN in a separate post.
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A lot of the above is, again, me trying to adjust my play after seeing some starkly different games.
In rock band, town was quite cooperative. Things were active. People posted, stuff happened, we had good reads and bad reads but overall ACTIVITY made things happen. BH made a relatively silly case, marv OMGUSed palmar, mementoss claimed vigi with this giant post, etc. etc. Everyone was just active and posting.
In GSL Open 2, and in some days of Looney Lynching, there just wasn't a lot going on. 2-3 players max were just talking and talking, and scum was hiding inside the pack of more inactive players.
So I'm trying both to get everyone more active, by just posting MORE even if it's not finely crafted, even if you think it's not the best read or not a fully formed thought, because that makes scum have to post more or stand out, and scum posting more gives us a better chance of catching them.
I also think it improves the atmosphere. We've got from joke-y but not scumhunt-y earlier in the day (nice atmosphere but not productive) to very accusatory and confrontative, where people are getting leapt on for everything they say (not as "nice" an atmosphere, more productive but I'm unsure how much so).
I want to aim for the middle of that. For more posts, more activity, and some scumhunting based off that. But scumhunting rather than just "AMG YOU GONE 20 HOURS AND THIS IS ALL WE GET?"
Stuff like that, at least to me, isn't scumhunting, because I don't see why scum would be absent, then come back and give thought on just a player or two. I don't think that would be optimal scum play, you'd either stay clammed up or you'd post giant walls of thoughts that were carefully tuned and whatnot. If you disagree with that, cool, let's talk about that one, because you're getting scummy vibes off something I think would be a poor decision for scum to make, when they could easily do other things instead.
And yeah, this is all super policy-y, but oh well. If it creates a better environment, if we can get everyone to post more and post more off-the-cuff, then I think we have a better chance of town taking this game. If we're still partially diddling around D1, this is what my brain comes up with when I'm trying to think of proactive ways to diddle around while waiting for everyone to play this game.
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Z-BosoN
Again, I'm focused more on the game at hand than a player's meta.
I see a decent amount of activity early. I see him engaging a LOT of players. Many of his larger posts address the thoughts of, or ask questions to, multiple players. That feels townie to me. Gut read on that is that Z-BosoN is playing, is noticing a couple things, and is posting about all that, rather than just trying to look active.
Very focused on equating play this game with play from past games. Hapa feels off compared to usual. DP remember this thing from that other game? DP meta feels like townie based on his other games. Again, gut read, I find trying to connect play this game to other games townie. There's a catch in that it allows him a lot of outs, because he doesn't have to be as focused on THIS game and what's happening now, can always make cases on people based on play in other games. Watching for that as I go through his filter.
He's hopping all over the place. At one point he's going to look at me and someone else because he's been focused on everyone else, and writing about everyone else. The desire to look at EVERYONE feels townie to me? Why wouldn't scum start settling on targets to push.
He gets very involved in both making a case on me, then ... kind of chainsaw defending me? And that buddying post with him agreeing with every single thing in a post I made for the first time. That strikes me as odd. My paranoid thought there is that I always seem to find him scummy and poke at him, but I'm not here, and him buddying/defending me maybe keeps me from looking at him too hard? But I think that's an overly paranoid thought.
I think all the effort between him and you is...not scummy? I don't think it is, but he could just be trying to shift the discussion from his play away from what he's been doing and more to this him/you fight. Again, I don't think that's the case.
I actually have a town read on him, looking at all that, I guess. DP's scumread seemed, in large part, based around Z-BosoN's past play. I actually usually find Z-BosoN scummy, so maybe he's scum and I find him townie this time, who knows. But I don't want to vote him.
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My above post is entirely uninteractive with this hapa/Z-BosoN stuff because...I quit reading it. I'll look back over it, but I think you should both knock it off on that point.
I don't really see scum getting into these long drawn up mud-slinging contests. Like...I'd either go "You're right; I'm wrong here" or "Okay okay, I see where you're coming from but I disagree and I'm going to go hunt scum now instead of doing this."
Prolonged fighting, page after page, with 1 other person over somewhat of a minute issue, doesn't feel scummy to me. If my thoughts on that change after slogging through you two's recent posting, I'll update that.
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On October 23 2012 06:24 Keirathi wrote:
@austin: I'm not exactly sure what you want from me?
Just dump a big list of any thoughts about every single person? That doesn't actually seem helpful, and I am loathe to do it.
I still think we should be lynching Z-Bo.
Sort of, lol.
I think that more activity from EVERYONE helps town. It forces scum to be more active or stand out. In all honesty, right now, I think that increased activity, even if you feel it's of a lesser quality or something, will do more for our scumhunting than sitting back and trying to only put out the bestest most polished thoughts. Or something like that?
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On October 23 2012 06:56 marvellosity wrote:My head hurts. Now I know what it looks like when me and VE shout at each other for pages ^^ Unless I missed it, I don't think Z-Bo ever answer Kei's original question of where his v7 scumread appeared from? I've just been through Z-Bo's filter and it indeed just appears and I can't find an explanation. Hopefully I'm not being a fucking dumbass. Z-Bo, explain please? Further, what is your current read on vader and why? Hapa has the right idea with his drazak and v7 post. When two people are shouting at each other, the natural scum reaction is to let it roll, or even throw wood on to the fire, rather than actually do anything about making it stop. On a little sidenote, it's why I found austin's play kinda adorable, because he was trying to push a policy idea but was being roundly ignored, so his reaction was to keep pushing the same idea in the same way, only to be unsurprisingly ignored again  Anyway, vader fits perfectly into the throwing-wood-on-to-the-fire mould, basically egging on the aggressiveness in the thread when there was no need for him to do so. Also, unlike austin, I see his 'I'm going through filter' thing as pretty scummy - like he's going through the motions rather than trying to push something constructive into the thread. BUT LOOK, I'M LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S SHIT?! No. Don't buy it. Every time I see vader post, he's not making me think any more that he's town. This scumbo gotta hang. ##Vote vaderseven.
#1, I bet none of you knew this, but the group of letters "ass" appears 20 times in Z-BosoN's filter.
The jerk comment seems to explicitly refer back to a post Z-BosoN made:
On October 23 2012 03:51 Z-BosoN wrote:@DP, Talking about expectations, I hope you realize how weak this is: Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 01:35 DarthPunk wrote:
Just looking over ZB's filter he has barely pushed v7 at all. The cases of his on both hapa and Keir are much stronger IMO and have a lot more time invested. Townie ZB tries to canvass support hardcore when he pushes like that. But this game he hasn't really bothered.
I would fully expect ZB to be pushing Keir right now. As most of his interaction has been towards him. I would not expect him to just lynch a 'liability' like that. Especially when he has his own cases that he usually tries to canvass support for. It's like he doesn;t care about the lynch as much as usual.
For reference. In XXVIII when I caught Kush with a super obvious scum slip ZB STILL did not want to lynch him until after kush was being bussed and went full troll mode on the thread.
I went over his scum filter from XXIV briefly.That is like the only game of his in which he pushed lurkers happily over those he had made cases/reads on. I push cases when I feel the need to. I've made my case against Kei, and had nothing else to say. My case against him isn't lynch-worthy, in my own opinion. Also, note how I did not quite kill v7. Several people wanted to insta-kill him, yet I felt pretty scared of laying my vote against him, and argued a bit against it, trying to give him another chance. Now that he is backing posting, he took the chance I gave him and wiped his ass with it.Now I find I actually want to lynch him, more specifically because of that. On October 23 2012 04:28 vaderseven wrote:
Also zboson, i wouldnt wipe my ass with anything you gave me jerk.
I don't even know what I find that, except kind of amusing.
##unvote for now, because I want to poke around.
Commence poking!
Drazak
Almost 24 hours ago, you were scummy on v7 and "probably a little scummy" on keirathi.
Do those reads still hold? If not, why?
What is your read on marv?
Who in the thread is your #1 townread?
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On October 23 2012 07:49 marvellosity wrote:
What happened to "I just wanna lynch someone", dear?
Are you actually finding vader less scummy now or are you just going back on your policy because you're feeling capricious?
I want to lynch someone. I actually deleted the part of that post where there are 4 someones I'm willing to lynch and start copy pasting the blood for the blood god bit for fun.
Right now I'm poking. Poking helps me figure out which of my 4 I want to push, because just going "I WILL LYNCH ANYONE FROM THESE 4" seems suboptimal.
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On October 23 2012 07:54 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 07:52 austinmcc wrote:On October 23 2012 07:49 marvellosity wrote:
What happened to "I just wanna lynch someone", dear?
Are you actually finding vader less scummy now or are you just going back on your policy because you're feeling capricious? I want to lynch someone. I actually deleted the part of that post where there are 4 someones I'm willing to lynch and start copy pasting the blood for the blood god bit for fun. Right now I'm poking. Poking helps me figure out which of my 4 I want to push, because just going "I WILL LYNCH ANYONE FROM THESE 4" seems suboptimal. First and last time I'm going to mention this, hopefully. You know it was these silly games you play that were a quite large part of me telling you you played badly in Looney, don't you? The reason I liked your filter earlier was because the games were absent. Spamming blood for the blood god bit = games. Poking people to figure out which of the people I'm willing to vote I want to vote and want to push is not game-y.
Don't think I've fully recovered and refuse to have any fun with my posting. But I'm doing normal scumhunt-y stuff here.
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marv, what is YOUR read on drazak atm.
You were townie earlier, but hapa "has the right idea with his drazak and v7 post." You seem to think v7 threw fuel on the fire, and is scummier for that. What about drazak's odd defenses?
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EPT
