EPTI know Alsn town's play and I find him not fitting his meta. I intend to get some strong response to my post. I'm provoking him on purpose.
Regarding your concerns about me not changing my mind, have they been addressed or not ?
Newbie Mini Mafia XXIX - Page 5
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
I know Alsn town's play and I find him not fitting his meta. I intend to get some strong response to my post. I'm provoking him on purpose. Regarding your concerns about me not changing my mind, have they been addressed or not ? | ||
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Djodref
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On October 26 2012 09:23 Djodref wrote: @Rad by the way, His argument is good but my argument is better. Not going to change my mind. Are you satisfied ? @Rad What did you not understand in this post ? | ||
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Djodref
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On October 26 2012 10:08 Clarity_nl wrote: So.... you're trying to get a strong response by asking what Alsn thinks Inig, which he has done to two other people before him. So what's the reason you brushed off his FoS? Honestly, I don't really care if Alsn has a FoS on me if it is for the reasons he has stated in his post. I know he is totally able to come at me with something more consistent if he really thinks I'm scum. Right now, I think his reasons are poor and I'm more interested in his opinion about Ini. | ||
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Djodref
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On October 26 2012 10:08 Rad wrote: @Djodref What did you not understand in this post ? I understand that you have made up your mind. I'm done discussing this with you, we are both losing time... | ||
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Djodref
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On October 26 2012 01:01 Djodref wrote: @sylver I've explained why I've answered this question ("are you mafia") already. Could you please re-read my filter and tell me if you are satisfied or not with my explanations ? I don't care if I look clean or not, my principal concern is to find the mafia. And, for your information, I'm not tunneling you, just putting you under some pressure. The only player I have a FoS on is Inig as for now. I'm accepting your explanations and I would like you to tell us what you think about Inig. I'm insisting on him because mafia players have this tendency to semi-lurk while looking like they contribute. Regarding Rad, I'm trusting debears to take care of him right now ^^ I'm following their exchanges with great interest. @Cheese I would appreciate you to quote my entire posts instead of cherry-picking some stuff like you did. I was responding to sylver saying that I was not looking so clean. My priority is to find scum first and defend myself in a second time. I'm planning to write a case on Inig by the way. | ||
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Djodref
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On October 26 2012 10:33 Rad wrote: This seems extremely suspicious to me, like scumslip suspicious, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe someone else can jump in on it? I'll think about it more in the meantime... @Rad I recommend you to check Alsn's filters in his previous game. Maybe it is going to help you understand what I meant... | ||
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Djodref
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Why we should lynch Inig First of all, I would like you to read Inig's filter before you read this case. It's not going to take you long time and you should also make your own opinion by yourself. I would like to lynch Inig for the following reasons
Total lack of scumhunting + Show Spoiler + Even if he is claiming that he has done some scumhunting, Inig has not given us any scumread and has asked a total of two questions to other players. He is not putting pressure or anyone or trying to understand the motives of anyone. On October 25 2012 15:39 Inigmaticalism wrote: Ah yes i see, the 'why' is more important than the 'what'. Excellent, Sylver answer Djo when u wake up. On October 26 2012 08:34 Inigmaticalism wrote: Right now I dont have any scum reads, only town reads which Ive already said in earlier posts. So I would lynch one of the lurkers probably. Also, Djo you seem to be the only one really going after me, so while your asking everyone what they think of me, you should answer your own question. what you you think of me? -Should be back to post something in around 6-7 hours. As you can see, he is not really committing, even when he asks some questions. Emotionally detached from this game + Show Spoiler + When I'm reading Inig's filter, I have the feeling that he is spectating this game and not a part of it. This is a characteristic of mafia players. He tries to look active by telling us what is going on in the thread in his view but he is not giving us extra information. This post is a perfect example of such an empty posing style. On October 25 2012 15:27 Inigmaticalism wrote: I have a thought regarding the Rad-Debears argument, over the whole 'confidence' thing. Its possible Im wrong, but it seems that Rad views the world in a more 'logical' way, meaning that in this case (playing mafia) having sound logic and scum reads will naturally result in confidence from said logic. Debears may happen to be more 'emotional', in this case where having a strong will/confidence allows for people like him (and me) to be very logical when there is a strong emotional base beneath them. You've both brought up the pros and cons about each type of viewpoint, so it should be beneficial if you guys watch out for each other. It seems you've both explained what you meant fairly well, and Im especially glad to see this post from you Rad cause I was getting slightly worried. Ha just saw you summed up my analysis for me: @ sylver You seem fairly energetic. Also, don't really think "What's your favorite role to play in mafia?" keeps us all that focused on scum hunting, but as it may be some clever scheme of yours Ill bite. ......Well actually I won't because I realized I was typing how I play the game. How clever. Loaded question indeed. Attempt to gain town cred by using a WIFOM argument + Show Spoiler + This is the most incriminating point in my opinion. Please have a careful look at the following part from Ini in bold font. On October 26 2012 03:42 Inigmaticalism wrote: /snip As for everyone else I need to read their posts again. It seems my scum-hunting has so far resulted in town-finding, but thats how its gone. Also, I deliberately dodged sylvers question about what your favorite role is to play to show I was town(which, ironically because he was role hunting, still answered his question). I would never have posted such an awkward response if I was mafia, I would have simply ignored the question all together, but it seems no one took it that way. How can you show that you are town by not answering question ? Why does he bring something like this up ? Mafia players usually try to get as much town cred as they can, for whatever weird reason. I think he knows his reason to claim town are bad and that's why he is backing it up by a WIFOM argument. | ||
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Djodref
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On October 26 2012 12:18 debears wrote: @Djo Do you believe that Inig fits the category of lurker? His filter is less than a page. Djo, why would Alsn be able to come up with something consistent if he thought you were scum? This sounds like scum with a guilty conscience. Scum know they are guilty. Their posts are made with the intention to mislead town, meaning that they know that traces of their deception are in their own posts. If you were townie, you would feel that your filter is not filled with scummy things, since you would be honest and sincere. This post definitely does not give that read of honesty. @debears I think Inig fits the category of a semi-lurker trying to blend in. I don't like them much. Regarding Alsn, him lurking like this is not fitting his town meta at all. I'm quite suspicious of him at the moment. Moreover, I'm expecting a town Alsn to give more reasons for FoS me. I'm just trying to push him to check if his FoS was faked or not. | ||
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Djodref
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On October 26 2012 12:51 Rad wrote: It's the bolded part that I'm talking about. "if it is for the reasons he has stated in his post" I mentioned this in another post that it seems scummy to me but I can't quite put my finger on it. In particular the "if" aspect is bothering me. Might be a stretch but I read those 2 lines and was like... "wait what??" I feel like if anyone came at me with a argument about why I'm suspicious, I would at the very least attempt to shut it down regardless of how dumb I thought the reasons were. He's saying the opposite, that he would defend himself if the reasons were better (according to him) but since they're not he just doesn't care. As a town, one should clear their name at all costs yes? For all he knows, Alsn's argument could help convince others to vote him, and if he's town, not defending himself would be stupid. @Rad For meta reasons, I'm pretty suspicious of Alsn at the moment. I wonder if his FoS on me was faked or not. By the way, could you tell me which part of his FoS post has convinced that I was scummy, if there is one ? | ||
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Djodref
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On October 26 2012 13:26 Rad wrote: Can you clarify the bolded part please? Are you asking "which part of his FoS convinced you that I was scummy" or "which part of the FoS was trying to convince that I was scummy" or something else? I don't understand how you worded that sentence. I'm sure it was just a typo, but I need clarification before I can respond. which part of his FoS convinced you that I was scummy ? Thank you  | ||
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Djodref
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On October 26 2012 13:28 debears wrote: @cheese On the point of djos "townie vibes". Why would he defend me if he thought i wasnt town, which he stated after he stated he had townie vibes on me? @rad I knew you were including that part . I still don't see that part as necessarily scummy. A townie could say that he doesnt care because he honestly doesn't care about a fos. A scum has a pretty equal chance of saying the same. @debears I was answering Rad's post+ Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 01:36 Rad wrote: Also debears it's stuff like this (which he's done before in this thread, if I remember correctly) that just make me raise an eyebrow and give thoughts that you're both scum. He's so confident you're town already?! Because you're being super active and aggressive? Maybe I'm just paranoid but I'm finding it really hard to believe anyone is town so far. @Djo, you're coming across, to me at least, as very "happy go lucky". Like, you've figured it all out as town last newbie game, and you're back now as town again but 100% more confident and ready to take down scum! Let's do this my friend debears, who is clearly also town! That's the vibe I'm getting from you and it feels really fake. I wanted to say that I have townies vibes from you which still stand. But I didn't consider you as 100% town. I've chosen poor wording. | ||
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Djodref
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On October 26 2012 12:50 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: On your case Debears: You've reiterated some of what's been said, or what I have observed already. You did present some new information, though. In particular, the following quote that I cannot agree with: I have a little problem with this notion. You can definitely get a "town vibe" from somebody but not fully consider them town. Always being suspicious and vigilant, especially with no hard evidence like on d1, is wise. I don't think this is a valid point, to be honest. Despite this, Djodref has a mountain against him. One of your new points really stuck out to me: If Djodref really thinks Rad is scum, why let someone else pursue? If you have a read, go for it. Don't beat around the bush and go off into the distance. Being multi-focused is acceptable, it's confusing why Djo would just "let debears take care of it". It makes no sense, unless he somehow knows Debears is town. In terms of the scumslip, I'm still thinking that the reference to Do0ud being town is a scum tell. His explanation for it, while being entirely plausible, fails to convince me whatsoever. His saying "my main concern is finding mafia" also doesn't sit well. The constant asking for info on Ingi / diverting attention, his useless "are you mafia?" question that I pointed out earlier, the inability to adequately answer some of the accusations/questions thrown at him. It doesn't add up. Actually, it does add up. I'm thinking he's scum. I've had a FoS on you for quite some time now, Djodref. Time to upgrade it. ##Vote: Djodref @Cheese Please specify which accusations/questions I couldn't address (please refer to the part in bold font in the spoiler). I'll try to answer adequately to them this time. | ||
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Djodref
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I'm focused on Inig for his total lack of scumhunting and his weird attempt to gain town cred. Could you sum up for me the main questions I have to answer to ? I'll try my best to answer them. | ||
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Djodref
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On October 26 2012 02:40 Alsn wrote: My reasons for thinking Djodref is slightly scummy so far is that he is asking a lot of questions. That in itself isn't particularly scummy(in fact, done right it's pro-town as it pressures people into sharing their opinions and such). The problem I have with it so far is that you keep asking people to answer you, yet your own statements so far amount to picking on the people who are being lurky(Ini, Roco) while at the same time criticising Rad for supporting lurker policy lynch?! This makes no sense to me. This in combination with the slip leads me to believe that you are trying to make yourself look good by being active. I can definitely see the possibility of there being town motivations for your actions so far, but I'd just like to point out that I have my eye on you. So, with that in mind, FoS Djodref. I'll see if I can't take a look at some of the other things said so far before I go to bed but if not, I'll do it first thing tomorrow as I will have a lot more time then. @Alsn The slip I have made was because I was mentioning another game I have been playing with daoud where he was town. I understand it can be seen as a scumslip. It's a valid point but not a strong one in my opinion. I have asked questions to many people, not only Inig and Roco. This is a misrepresentation of the reality. It's true that I'm focusing a lot on Inig but it's because I think he is scum. That's why I want people to give their thoughts about him. Criticizing Rad for his support of lurker policy lynch doesn't mean I don't want to lynch a lurker. I don't want to protect the lurkers or anything like that. I just don't want us to use blindly the policy lynch or to rely on it too much. If a lurker is scummy enough (like Inig in my eyes), I would lynch him for being scummy, nor for the policy. I think your FoS is forced by the way... | ||
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Djodref
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I'm not saying that I'm not going to change my opinion on anything. For example, I've already changed my opinion about you (from scummy to light townie). I'm saying that I'm not going to change my opinion on a particular point. I didn't want to discuss about it anymore because I don't think that this particular point is relevant at all. This particular point is when to agree on applying lurker policy lynch. I was discussing it with dandel. If you have something else in mind, then I would like you to tell me exactly what it is. dandel would have liked us to agree to follow a strong lurker policy for this game at the beginning of D1. He presented his reasons for it and I found them totally acceptable, I even admitted them they were good. He has backed up his arguments with experience. But I disagree with such a strategy because I firmly believe that it is quite easy for the mafia to avoid a lynch for lurking, pushing some mislynch on lurky townies and use this strategy for their benefit. And I'm not going to change my mind about it. | ||
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Djodref
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If you don't mind, I'm going to address your whole case later today. I don't want to spend all my time defending myself... Plus I have some work to do ^^ | ||
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Djodref
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So your main concern about me was I said that I wouldn't change my mind ? Do you have other concerns ? Did you understand I was only speaking about a particular point (agreeing that a strict lurker policy should be part of our strategy) ? | ||
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Djodref
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Ok, I understand your concern now. But you are extrapolating a little what I have been saying. I don't remember saying I wouldn't change my mind regardless of the argument. I personally think that you are according to much importance to this point. In my eyes, this argument was irrelevant. Please tell me what could be my motivation as scum to not agree with dandel on this particular point. You are concentrating on the form of my speech while you should concentrate on the content of my speech. Concerning the "confidence" ordeal, it was to help the newbies and to counter your "lurker policy" ordeal. | ||
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Djodref
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Let's make the hypothesis that Oastmaster, imcasey and Roco are going to get modkilled today for not voting. Who would you like to lynch today and why ? | ||
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Djodref
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On October 26 2012 12:03 debears wrote: Ok guys I'm back. Got a few things to post. So, I'll start with a scumread. After rereading the thread. One person came out pretty suspicious, Djo. Defending Me/Town read on me + Show Spoiler + As you have started to put early pressure on some players with FoS and wrote a case against Rad, I felt that you were very involved in this game and committing to scumhunt. That were some nice early town tells for me, even if I did not mention it. I also made some post to precise what you were saying because I felt there was some misunderstanding about what you were saying. I wouldn't call this defending you, I did it to promote a better atmosphere. Here Djo restates an answer that I had already posted to a question addressed to me On October 25 2012 13:18 Djodref wrote: @Rad Debears solved us the game last time (NMM XVIII) with his case on SDM, the last mafia player we had to find. He was going to be mislynched but he didn't gave up and was still looking for the last mafia while he had everyone against him. It's important to believe in your ability to find the mafia. If not, you are just going to look desperate if people start a bandwagon against you. Also it is going to reduce your tendency to sheep and I think that sheeping happens a lot in the newbie games although it is really bad for town. Why is Djo defending me at this point? There is no way he can have a town read on me at that point, unless he is scum and he knows I'm town. Think about it 1) Town do not know who is scum. Since they don't know who is, they won't know if they are defending a scum early game 2) He feels the urge to jump to my defense way early in the game when I am answering the questions myself 2) He is restating what I had already said. I had already mentioned the SDM case from last game. Yet, he feels the need to bring it up again to defend me. I'm not defending you at that point, I'm rephrasing what you were saying because I felt that Rad had misunderstood you. Later, Clarity makes a post accusing me On October 26 2012 01:21 Djodref wrote: @Clarity I don't think that debears is advocating chaos. In my point of view, he is certainly promoting discussion. We could as well being still discussing policy lynches if he wasn't here. And please remind that it's quite easy for mafia to avoid a policy lynch. By the way, do you believe that we can lynch a scum on D1 ? What do you think of Inig ? Djo once agains heads to my defense. Note that Djo has not stated anywhere yet that he has a town read on me. At this point, I defend you because I was starting to have a town read on you. Clarity's post reminded me the posts from the newbies last game who were saying you were trying to disrupt the town when you were only scumhunting. Finally, he defends me in his 2 next posts with a somewhat townie read On October 26 2012 01:27 Djodref wrote: Guys, please remind that people who are taking strong stances (or weird stances like Roco) stand out. Mafia players usually don't want to stand out. Right now, I'm not very worried about a scum debears or a scum Rad. I would be more worried about a scum Inig for expample. The kind of players who are in the thread without really participating, if you know what I mean... Not worried about me being scum = at least a null read on me. The next post. I had a town read on you at that point. Not totally sure but I think it is less likely to find mafia players among the most active posters. On October 26 2012 01:31 Djodref wrote: I'm still feeling bad for tunneling until death last game I even didn't have the balls to state that I had changed my mind about you at the end. As I feel some townie vibes from you in this game, I thought I could at least defend you this one time. debears <3 Now, he finally states he has "townie vibes", yet he has been defending me since well early on. And then he backs his defense of me as retribution for last game. Defending himself for no reason with bad reasoning? That's scummy. Yeah, that's bad reasoning, but it is truly how I feel. You look like your town self and people are attacking you for the same stupid reasons than last time. Now, see what happens to the town read he has at this point been 1) exemplifying thru his defense of me and 2) by the last two posts I quoted. On October 26 2012 01:57 Djodref wrote: @Rad Last game newbie game I was totally wrong with all my reads. But I'm not going to let it affect my faith in my ability to find scum. Moreover, even if I'm wrong, I'm giving mafia less room to hide if I take strong a clear stances about some players. I don't have strong scumread at the moment but I would prefer to confront people in a very direct way if I start to be suspicious of them. Because that's how I think I can generate the most useful information. It seems natural for you but it wasn't at all in my previous newbie game, so I want to encourage people to have this state of mind. This is all I'm thinking about when I'm talking about confidence (so it's not exactly confidence in your reads). On a side note, if you have understood that I've called debears town, I think you have misinterpreted my post. Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town. It's a feeling I have from I read in his post (similar to the last game we have played together where he was townie) and his general behavior in his game. Believe or not, being aggressive like this early game benefits town. Because it allows us to have constructed discussion... "Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town". What does this mean??????? So I'm townie to you but not at the same time? This is a weak statement that is a contradiction in a mafia-oriented way to his play. By saying that I have townie vibes but am not town is keeping a door open for suddenly accusing me later. Who wants to keep an open door for sudden accusation on any person in the game? Mafia. A Quick turn in opinion on Rad + Show Spoiler + I don't have much things to say at this point. I fucked up. I was not sure at first about Rad and your case convinced me. But after this I've realized that it was not really likely for a scum player to start such a fight and post so much. Rad is also looking involded in this game and he is doing his part of scumhunting, even if I find that he is doing it the wrong way. Before my Rad case, here's what Djo had to say On October 25 2012 15:48 Djodref wrote: @debears I've re-read the thread and I think that dandel and Rad are strong supporters of policy lynches for lurking. It's not a scumtell for me. I understand that you could be strongly against policy lynches given our experience ^^ The problem I see with this is people getting lazy and rely on a policy lynch for today. That's why I personally think it would be better to bring up the possibility for a policy lynch when we can tell for sure that lurking is plaguing us. This is his very next post On October 25 2012 17:20 Djodref wrote: Nice case, I need to discuss a little more with rad before voting him. So now, he suddenly thinks that Rad's stance on policy is a scum tell? He doesn't cite any parts of my case. Yet, he is thinking about voting Rad. Note - "I need to discuss a little more with rad before voting him" implies that he found scumminess in Rad enough to think of voting Rad. And guess what? He doesn't really talk to Rad. He goes off on Ini and Roco while talking to Dauoud. Instead, he posts this later On October 26 2012 01:01 Djodref wrote: @sylver I've explained why I've answered this question ("are you mafia") already. Could you please re-read my filter and tell me if you are satisfied or not with my explanations ? I don't care if I look clean or not, my principal concern is to find the mafia. And, for your information, I'm not tunneling you, just putting you under some pressure. The only player I have a FoS on is Inig as for now. I'm accepting your explanations and I would like you to tell us what you think about Inig. I'm insisting on him because mafia players have this tendency to semi-lurk while looking like they contribute. Regarding Rad, I'm trusting debears to take care of him right now ^^ I'm following their exchanges with great interest. He's "trusting me to take care of Rad". Wow. Why the disinterest in pursuing him? Why is he willing to lay back and let me take the reins on accusing him? Why would a townie want another townie to "take care of" pursuing someone? Scum, on the other hand, want townies to do the dirty work for them. Another thing - the word trust implies that Djo thinks or knows I'm town. The Scumslip + Show Spoiler + It's a slip, not a scumslip. I was referring to a game where I knew daoud was town. So I wrote my sentence having this in mind. Hence the slip. On October 25 2012 18:25 Djodref wrote: daoud Good ! I'm not planning on defending you this game so I expect you to do your job as town What's your take on the Rad-debears argument by the way? Note how different his approach to Dauod is to me? He willingly defends me, yet doesn't want to defend dauod. Why? Here he implies that Dauod is town early in the game. He plays it off as bad word choice, yet there are other things in his filter that imply extra information. Notably, the stuff I mentioned before on his actions which indicate that he thinks/knows I'm town despite him claiming that he doesn't think I'm town. FOS Djo Djo, what do you have to say. Most importantly on the subject of your actions which indicate that you think/know i'm town yet you saying that you don't think I am Right now, I think you are town. Not 100% convinced but I would say 70%. You are doing a good job at scumhunting and you really look like your town self. The slip was unfortunate and I think I'm providing good explanation for it: you have to look at the context of the sentence. Regarding Rad, I've spoken too fast and I've changed my mind about him. One last thing I would like to say is that I'm also involving myself in this game. I've spent a lot of time defending myself and I've explained why I think that Inig would be a good lynch target for today. If you need more details or if you are not satisfied with my explanations, please come back to me. | ||
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