Ask me anything. ANYTHING. I won't be around too much later in the game (got a test on Monday, and like 3 different works to finish before each weekend in a row), so the sooner everybody realizes I'm town the better.
For instance, I know that "thing" in Caller's game was a joke, but I wasn't actually joking about that PW plan. I'd want Phoenix Wright to claim so we can decide what statement he has to object
That may give us 1/more mod-confirmed town/scum in D1. Plus we can get some discussion going (although I suspect there is no PW in this game for some reason, since it's a small game). So, basically ignore that statement above until PW claims or not.
On October 01 2012 04:46 ghost_403 wrote: Hiro goes on my town list because no anti-town faction would be dumb enough to say that.
Still wanna lynch Keirathi.
You are acting like an ass. You can't just say "Keirathi is too pro-town on D1 to be town" and expect everybody to bandwagon and do nothing else.
I see the point of view you are getting at, but I don't see it actually happening right now (i.e Keirathi putting "tons of effort" trying to appear townie), so if you still think that expand on it. Keriathi vs Drazerk At the moment I'm getting the feeling both are town. Keirathi's plan was bad yes, and I agree his unvote seemed a "little" strange, but that's as far as I can see in terms of him being suspicious. Anti-town players rarely come up with intentional stupid/bad cases/plans right off the bat in D1 since it puts lots of attention on them. [pre-edit: I know talismania did something similar in Can't Believe Mafia, so it's possible Keirathi could have done it as scum/3rd party, even if it's unlikely] Other than that his explanations seemed genuine to me. Still gotta keep an eye on him, specially since he hasn't taken off in terms of actual scumhunting right now.
About Drazerk....meh. Seems like he thought he caught something. I didn't get the feeling he wanted to shit up the thread since he had the chance to do it. He just seemed to try and make sense of the situation and get some discussion going. I take it he didn't really take his vote on Kei seriously (since why would he vote for someone he thinks is survivor?), although that was a little strange. Am I the only one that found these 2 posts weird?
On September 30 2012 14:32 Nisani201 wrote: ##Vote: Drazerk
I don't understand why he's still pushing against Keirathi. His plan was clearly poorly thought out, I see no scum motivation behind it. Drazerk is taking a newbie mistake and calling it scum play.
On September 30 2012 14:15 Drazerk wrote: I disagree the set up speculation would start again when all the Europeans wake up because your little idea was poorly managed. To me it just looks like a third party realizing they had done something silly and trying to back out of it before they are caught out without realizing their excuse puts even more focus on the stunt.
If you wanted to truly derail the thread from set up you would of kicked up a storm and not backed down for at least 24 hours. A 2 hour changeover where only mattchew posted anything significant isn't that.
People seem to be missing this. The first time he said it, he had some options in there, but now Draz seems focused on "Third Party" for Keirathi...
Not scum, but potentially third party (based on all that same speculation about setup)? You suggesting you know who IS scum, Drazerk?
##Vote Drazerk
Both of them rarely posted before that, and came out of nowhere with a vote on Drazerk of all people. Then none of them stuck around discussing their read on Drazerk and just disappeared.
First, let it be clear that I don't get the feeling both are scum (since I doubt both would act exactly the same way as scum), but it's a possibility if you guys want to discuss it. What I think of it is.....scummy and weird.
I didn't see any of them invested in discussions, specially not in discussions concerning Keirathi and Drazerk. They just came, parked their vote on the "easy" target ("easy" in relative terms) and left. I see no town motivation at all in parking your vote and disappearing before discussing your reasoning with other people and waiting to see what others have to say.
However, I could let Nisani pass, since he did minimally discuss his read of Drazerk later (it was 1 post, but at least it was something). Plus it's Nisani and I can see him acting like that as town.
I'm more concerned with JingleHell at the moment:
On September 30 2012 09:03 JingleHell wrote: Hello gents. Let's get some scum.
This was his first post. After this I assumed he'd come with walls of text quoting everybody, asking everybody questions and trying to actively find scum. What he actually did was disappear, then come out of nowhere to park a barely-justified vote on Drazerk and disappear again.
The contrast between his initial "eagerness" to catch scum and his actual behaviour is very scummy. Again, also considering the fact that he doesn't seem to care about his read on Drazerk since he immediately disappeared later instead of trying to reason his read with others or with Drazerk himself.
Players that vote just for the sake of voting (and not for the sake of trying to figure out someone else's alignment) are either ultra bored/busy townies or scum. I see no indication of JingleHell being bored because of his 1st post, nor any indication of him being busy (again, because of his 1st post as well and the lack of explanation from him), so I'm going with the 3rd option here:
##Vote: JingleHell
P.S: I can't be arsed to check austin/Mementos/s&b/hiro and all those people right now.
Also, I hope nobody will have the nerve of calling me hypocrite and vote me because of "me doing the same thing JingleHell is doing" or some shit like that.
I'm going to study for my test, but I'll be around, so I'll answer any questions you guys have and try to be here and not just disappear.
Also, I hope nobody will have the nerve of calling me hypocrite and vote me because of "me doing the same thing JingleHell is doing" or some shit like that.
I'm going to study for my test, but I'll be around, so I'll answer any questions you guys have and try to be here and not just disappear.
Oh, so you acknowledge that your "case" against me would work similarly against yourself? Good, I'll just ignore you.
I acknowledge that some people may not pay attention and think of it that way. Just trying to save people some time.
If it was somehow ambiguous, I found Draz suspicious in that he seemed to have just assumed a specific subset of non-town for Keirathi.
Generally, if I see something as anti-town, I don't go saying "Oh, he must be third party". Why? Because scum is anti-town. Making a faction based guess, especially in a closed setup, beyond saying "X is acting anti-town" sounds like you're privy to some knowledge about factions, and it's probably a little early for that.
Why is him thinking Kei was 3rd party instead of scum suspicious? Why do you think he's privy to knowledge about factions just because he called someone 3rd party (which is as ambiguous as you can get regarding "factions")? Why does that make him scum?
Also Jingle.....what else? Do you have any comments on anything else that happened? You haven't talked about Keirathi either nor said if you thought Drazerk's "find" was legit or not, plus you ignored everything else happening as well.
Short questions I want answered ASAP so we get them over with:
At Drazerk: 1)Why do you think Keirathi was 3rd party and not scum? 2)If you thought he was 3rd party survivor, why did you still vote for him? At Keirathi: 1)Are you going to start scumhunting soon?
JIngle, I get the feeling you are voting Drazerk and accusing him just so you can justify doing something in this game. I don't get the feeling you are trying to figure out his alignment and convince yourself he is scum, nor I get the feeling you want to convince us he is scum so we can lynch him.
I just see you lurk, then come out of lurking to park your vote using a half-assed justification for it and then going back to lurking.
Like I said, I can only see bored/trollish/busy townies doing that (although even busy townies would try to do something else to push their read), and I don't see you being any of them. You are too serious and "eager to catch scum" to be a bored or trollish townie (for instance I could see Nisani being a bored townie, at least at this point in the game), and again there's no indication you are busy (and again even if you were I doubt you'd act like you did). So where does that leave you? As scum unfortunately, unless someone can figure out some town motivation for Jingle's behaviour.
On October 01 2012 05:59 gonzaw wrote: At Keirathi: 1)Are you going to start scumhunting soon?
When I feel like there's enough for me to make an actual case that I believe in. Until them, I'm content to ask questions and discuss the current goings-on in the thread to build my reads.
Okay, answer me this then:
1)How do you stand in respect to Drazerk? Do you agree with Nisani/Jingle/etc about his scummy behaviour or do you think he's town or are you not sure? 2)Same about JingleHell. Do you agree with what I said about him or not? Or do you think it's not enough to judge his alignment, and if so why? 3)Do you think ghost acting like an idiot and wanting to lynch you for mind-boggling reasons makes him scum, reckless townie trying to play the "aggressive hero" role, or is not enough to judge his alignment?
I'm more interested in your thought process at the moment rather than what you actually think (I want to know if you are legitimately trying to build your reads or you are scum trying to skate by without doing anything)
However, I could let Nisani pass, since he did minimally discuss his read of Drazerk later (it was 1 post, but at least it was something). Plus it's Nisani and I can see him acting like that as town.
Can you explain this a little more?
Nisani followed up his vote with an explanation when Drazerk called him out. He didn't seem too interested in the game either, his behaviour seemed way less aggressive than Jingle, which like I said I could see as him being a bored townie and not caring that much about the game, which is why I focused on Jingle.
I still found it odd, but meh it was Nisani and my gut didn't tell me he was scum. It's still interesting so of course we should still keep an eye on him.
And I don't think your point on JingleHell is very good. I can see someone who isn't very familiar with Drazerk jumping on that.
What about my other points? That Jingle comes out to post just to "appear he's contributing" and "justify himself" and seems less interested about his actual read and convincing people of it? Hmm, I'll wait on the contributions of other people before doing anything else.
I'd really like Mementos to tell us if his austin thing is getting anywhere and if he has anything else to say.
No comments on my reply? Do you agree with my thinking?
No, no comments. Like I said I wanted to see your thought process. I kind of agree about Drazerk and ghost, although I'm not thinking too much about ghost's behaviour right now, I'm basically waiting for him to do something else and see if he stops trolling or if he legitimately will play all the game like this.
Try not to be such an asshole Jingle, it's just freaking D1.
I'm having mixed feelings about you. I don't know if this aggressive "I don't care" behaviour of yours is a ruse or if it's legit, but it's confusing me a little bit (i.e I don't know if you'd react like that as scum).
I'm not asking people to bandwagon you, and asking for opinions and stances. If it makes you feel any better though:
##Unvote: JingleHell
Jingle, what do you think of Mementos' 1st post about Keriathi and austin and his behaviour this game?
I wouldn't mind shifting discussion towards Mementos, ghost, S&B and maybe Nisani. Hell S&B did absolutely nothing so far, maybe Drazerk is onto something.
P.S: Also Jingle, are you seriously saying you won't accuse anybody so they don't accuse you of OMGUSing back? Are you willing to accuse any of those people you mentioned just out of spite or because you seriously think they could be scum?
Don't start acting like the world is against you when you only have 2 votes and it's 24 hours into D1.
austin, why aren't you making those fluffy walls of text you make when you are town? Why does it seem nobody cares?
Damn, what a boring game :/ If this keeps up like this I'll most likely vote S&B, or ghost (if he wasn't intentionally trolling), or Jingle (if I make up my mind about him) or Mementos/Nisani/austin/iamperfection (I have "weird" feelings about all of them but there so little to go on that I can't know for sure).
On October 01 2012 10:51 Keirathi wrote: I would talk with you but I exhausted my major reads when you asked earlier, so I'll just make some quick comments:
s&b: hardcore lurking. I honestly expect more from him.
austin: weird flip-flop on me, and again not as active as I would expect
Mementoss: null. I'm curious what about him gives you a weird feeling? Your only mentions of him so far are in passing, or asking other people questions.
iamperfection: slight meta-based town read, despite his lurkiness.
The "weird" feeling I had about Mementos was that 1st post of his. His reasoning to vote austin didn't seem that good to me (although I don't really want to get into it right now), and it seemed he picked him out of nowhere. The worst thing is that that post of his made me think "wow, so it seems Mementos will be active and contribute" but he never followed up with anything later.
Just how I found Jingle suspicious because Jingle FoSed Drazerk and then did absolutely nothing to push his read, I find Mementos suspicious for doing the same to austin. He parked his vote on him, then disappeared only to sporadically make irrelevant one-liners and completely forget about austin.
It may be that he was having 2nd doubts on austin but was not really sure if he wanted to unvote him or not and thus kept his vote (which I guess is what happened with Jingle, and basically what happened with me some time ago), but there's almost no indication of that from him and that doesn't justify his lack of contributions since then
About Drazerk: Can someone tell me why Drazerk might be scum?
I'm genuinely interested, because I can't seem to read him right. I get the feeling he's one of those kind of players you just have to keep alive throughout the whole game to analyse their play. As in, you need a large time span to gauge his contributions and actions and see if they are anti-town or not because they rarely contribute at any specific time and just troll or post irrelevant stuff and just kind of hang around.
Saying "because he switched his vote with little reason" is not enough since that's one of those things I kind of assume his kind of player does most of the time (vote and unvote randomly, or just sheep, talk about irrelevant stuff and never giving enough good reasoning behind their actions, etc).
The way I think of it, Drazerk had the chance to shit up the thread a lot but didn't take it, instead just "discussed" his read on Keirathi (somehow, I don't really understood what he did there) and then backed off, which doesn't seem something his type of player would do as scum IMO, specially early on D1.
On October 01 2012 15:12 gonzaw wrote: About Drazerk: Can someone tell me why Drazerk might be scum?
I'm genuinely interested, because I can't seem to read him right. I get the feeling he's one of those kind of players you just have to keep alive throughout the whole game to analyse their play. As in, you need a large time span to gauge his contributions and actions and see if they are anti-town or not because they rarely contribute at any specific time and just troll or post irrelevant stuff and just kind of hang around.
Saying "because he switched his vote with little reason" is not enough since that's one of those things I kind of assume his kind of player does most of the time (vote and unvote randomly, or just sheep, talk about irrelevant stuff and never giving enough good reasoning behind their actions, etc).
The way I think of it, Drazerk had the chance to shit up the thread a lot but didn't take it, instead just "discussed" his read on Keirathi (somehow, I don't really understood what he did there) and then backed off, which doesn't seem something his type of player would do as scum IMO, specially early on D1.
What did you think of this part of s&b's post, gonzaw:
On October 01 2012 14:25 strongandbig wrote: he knows that he and i often get into shitfights and it's advantageous for him as scum to try and start one, as long as he thinks i won't be able to push a scum read on him through, which he probably does because he's arrogant. the thing is - his argument works both ways around - he says that I should know he doesn't actually try to win as town, but he focuses on third party, so my calling him out for that makes me scum. The thing is, I call him out for that every game - his attempting to call me out on it this game for being scum makes no sense. he's trying to use circular logic but it backfired.
I don't really know what to think of it. Drazerk and S&B seem to be bitching at each other quite a lot and seem bound to use confirmation bias against each other. S&B can easily misinterpret Drazerk's motivations for calling him out and I don't really know how much some of those statements are true, like "I call him out for that every game" and that Drazerk apparently should know that if he was town. That's the kind of stuff that starts pointless shitstorms (generally between townies). Unless there's a specific example of a town/scum Drazerk acting like S&B says he'd act then I can't think much of it (again, considering it's Drazerk we are talking about). About S&B:
Hmm, I find your behaviour quite odd. You are not playing like you used to in Magic Mini (where you at least tried to contribute and appear you did, whether it was setup related or fluff), or in Can't Believe (where you started on D1 with lots of explanations and that seemed more aggressive).
I do tend to misinterpret your D1 behaviour though, so I'll leave it at that and see how you follow up with it. I just want to tell you that your D1 behaviour is odd (and so was your Can't Believe D1 behaviour as well), and I don't know if you are doing that on purpose or not. You just have an "I don't care" attitude going on that I don't like and makes it hard to distinguish it from a scum attitude.
If you are town try to care more about the game and your own game please, unless you want me to start another pointless bickering battle with you Anyways, the people that I'm actually interested in seemed to have disappeared. Oh well. Anyways.....tomorrow I have a test, then I have to go to uni so I won't be home in nearly all day, so I don't know if I'll be around for the deadline (don't really know when it is).
Just in case I miss it I'll make a placeholder vote on iamperfection:
##Vote: iamperfection
I don't have a strong read on him at all, but after rereading it's the strongest one I have. None of his posts seemed to contribute at all, and even his ghost vote seemed "easy" to latch on. He doesn't have anything else to go on, so it's a safe bet I think.
Others I could have placed a vote on would be JingleHell, Mementos or Nisani, but I'm not sure at all about them. I really need to see how they will act towards contributing and towards the lynch, right now they seem passive, lurky and nothing else (I'd consider keeping austin/ghost/others alive until I get more info on them) But considering nobody else has done anything in the last hours (in terms of contributing to the lynch, or discussion, etc) and everybody seemed to have the same "meh I don't really care" apathetic attitude it's difficult to assert if they are doing it out of a scum motivation or are just townies that aren't doing shit because nobody else is doing shit. @Hiro: Keirathi's "plan" and reaction is not exactly what makes him town. I think he's fairly town for obvious reasons and people should know of them if they read the thread (they are too subtle to explain right now though). Those reasons are some of the ones why I think you are town too for instance (won't dwell on that though).
Hopefully those that are still suspicious of you/Keirathi (ghost and S&B for instance) read the thread and respond back.
Mattchew, please don't go scummy lurky on us You started off good so keep it up, I want contributions from you.
Hmm, although you started off "good" on Can't Believe too and had me fooled for a time there, and you going lurky made it possible to figure out you were scum.
If you are town try not to do that, just in case it may be confused with your scum play. If you are scum I think you'll do that anyway (I doubt you'll change your scum play that much) so no worries.
On October 01 2012 08:53 iamperfection wrote: @ memen why did you not include strongandbig when you mentioned that i did not include anything of "value" yet.
Because the difference between you and him at that point was you were active at 3 different occasions in the thread and chose not to say anything. S&B was active at the very start of the game, and then never posted, theres a difference I consider that inactive. Anyways, needless to say, I really disagree on the meta arguement that you are town, by their point, it would seem that you are fitting your scum play. At least when you posted in Rockband mini you had a purpose and you're one liners had something to do with the important discussion in town.
Here is the quote im referring to:
On October 01 2012 14:35 Keirathi wrote:
On October 01 2012 14:33 strongandbig wrote: oh also keirathi i think you said you have a slight meta-based townread on iamperfection, could you tell us about his meta in your opinion? if you didn't say this then whoever did say this pls answer that question but i think it was keirathi.
It was me. I've played with scum iamperfection in a newbie game a couple months ago, and observed a few of his recent townie games. In his townie games he is cocky, while in his scum game he was careful and lurky. I know it was a while ago, and that doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't be cocky if he rolled scum again if he was more confident in his play, but my initial read was town.
its not my fault no one seems to give a fuck about ghost. Guy comes into the thread makes the worst case i have ever seen.
Let me break it down how it looks from my perspective the sequence of events.
Keirathi makes shitty case. (i thought it was shitty at the time) Keirathi explains what he was trying to accomplish fairly well. Ghost enters thread Ghost says keirathi is scum because he is trying to hard (wtf) Ghost say hiro is town because hiro is to dumb(wtf) Ghost abandons thread.
Can someone explain to me how the fuck ghost can be town (preferably ghost)
I see no town motivation in the way ghost is acting and i think he just tried to act stupid on purpose and skate by day 1 by using the stupid "oh scum would never act that dumb" argument.
ghost is scum in my eyes.
Voting ghost is too easy.
I can easily find both scum and town motivation behind his actions, here:
Scum motivation: -Create confusion with a terrible vote -Act "arrogant" to avoid doing anything productive and get away with it -Maybe use that "oh scum would never act that dumb" argument to skate by later
Town motivation: -Thinks he's rough and all awesome and dandy and is trying to appear "cool" by using those "fuck you scum I don't care" attitudes many "vets" use in D1 hoping people go "oh ghost you are so awesome! I'm going to sheep you all game now" or something -He's trolling and doesn't really care since it's the beginning of D1 -Like said before, he doesn't care and is just spouting anything that comes to his mind, whatever it is, without proof-reading or analyzing it before posting it
I can see why someone would vote for him and why you would vote for him, but something doesn't fit. His "Hiro is town" post doesn't strike to me as scum at all. I don't think scum would call someone town out of nowhere without any scum motivation behind like the way he did, at least not in how I expect ghost to behave like scum.
He could still be scum for all I know, but I'd prefer we have some discussion behind it instead of going "ghost is dumb, lynch him".
For instance iamperfection, what do you think of the above?
We all know how scum Palmar works, and that's a thing a scum Palmar would do. Is it a thing scum ghost would do? (well, to be honest I don't remember him in any games where he was scum though)
Hmm, okay people, what do you guys think about lynching one of these guys: JingleHell Mementos Nisani CrossFire austin iamperfection
And if you'd switch to one of them, why would you do it?
Like I said before I have that same "weird" feeling about them, but again it seems none of them other than Mementos decided to show up to contribute at all. It wouldn't bother me too much since it's D1, but we are getting too close to the lynch deadline and we have to choose a lynch.
We have like 0 information on the table, so it's VERY likely this lynch will be a misslynch, specially if there's some incognito scum in the group of Mementos/Hiro/Keirathi/(me lol)/etc that are driving discussion.
But fuck what else can we do, right?
I'm leaving in like 20 minutes and wondering if I should put my placeholder (or basically lynch vote) onto someone else. I'm gonna eat now....so convince me people
S&B I'm torn off but wouldn't want lynched since I know he steps up his game after N1 (as seen in like all games I've been with him as town). Drazerk is Drazerk, I see no reason to think he's scum and lynch him right now.
Yes, it's easy for scum to pick any townie from that list at random and point fingers, but there's no reason to believe him. I trust some people here more than others, and it's the opinion of those that I'll take into account to determine my choice. The "scummy" people would be forced to choose so I can see how they interact and contribute, but not to completely sway my opinion.
Well, tough luck I'm leaving right now. You know what, fuck it:
##Unvote: iamperfection ##Vote: JingleHell
I don't really buy that "the world is against me" attitude and I haven't seen any contribution from him other than his scummy read on Drazerk (maybe his unvote is not that scummy, but it's the only thing I can go on).
Take into account that's a rash vote/placeholder, but oh well.
Jingle is town, but he's bad. Bolded bad. Chill out, don't OMGUS, pay attention and don't get all cocky and arrogant and spam the thread with those defenses of yours. The way you argued and interacted with people and the way you kept "shitting things up" even though it was obvious you should have stopped doing that as scum makes me think there's a chance you can be town, so take that chance and try to play better.
ghost and Nisani are likely scum I think, Mementos and Crossfire are there too.
ghost/Nisani/Mementos/Crossfire/Drazerk
I think all remaining scum are in there
Small reasoning here (I have to do some shit, and will have to consolidate a post of mine with all my thoughts and shit and that may take a while, so this is the tl;dr version):
ghost: Yes, I had a "gut" feeling his initial posts may have been from "trolling" townie....but I get the gut feeling he's using scum tactics to pile onto Keirathi there. That post of his reeks of "I'm scum trying to make a case against someone I really want suspicion on". No comments about iamperfection's interactions with him and viceversa. Will read him fully later. Nisani: His "comeback" post was too fluffy and didn't contribute at all. He's not part of discussions at all, and doesn't even try to be. "Not part of discussions"->Easiest heuristic for finding scum/town. "Nisani is not part of discussions"->It's more likely he's scum. Mementos: He didn't do anything at all throughout D1. Same heuristic here as well, he hasn't been part of any discussion even though he was active (like when ghost asked him a question). He didn't heavily push iamperfection so his vote on him doesn't mean anything, specially since unvoting him would not change anything. Still, it doesn't seem right that he'd bus his scummate that early and never try to shift attention to some other townie, so I'll keep that in mind. Crossfire: This guy HAS to be scum. He has done 0 contributions at all and spent 70% of his post "joking" with Drazerk about how he's "confused" about him. Drazerk: Doesn't contribute and just skates by. Like I said he's likely to do the same as town because of the style of his play; but as time goes by it only increases the chances of him being scum. Maybe S&B: I dunno, I'll have to wait if he decides to be useful or not.
About Keirathi: This dude is active as fuck, I heavily doubt he's scum at all nor even 3rd party. Like I said before, there are some subtle things that make him town (like the same things that make Hiro town). Specially his attitude, activity and interactions with other people.
Everybody that's suspicious of him reread his filter and the D1 thread, and then tell me in the eyes he's scum (and not just townie that made mistakes) and explain why.
Yeah this is a shitty post, I'll be back later
P.S: See? This is why you always pay attention to Mattchew. Even if he's scum he 100% busses all his teammates so you are bound to kill any scum he points fingers at.
Mattchew, Keirathi, Hiro and austin are all very likely town Jingle is likely town
You may be wondering why I'm posting town reads at night? Well, 2 reasons:
1)People stop casting suspicion on them unless they have a very good case. That way we don't lose time and effort running around in circles. 2)So scum kill them instead of me tonight ( >_> )
If someone wants any specific reasons why I think those are town (other than the Keirathi one up there) ask, but if not I don't really want to dwell with all the psychoanalysis of their play and what makes them town and shit.
On October 02 2012 00:38 Keirathi wrote: @austin: what's your position on me now? You jumped from not scummy, to questioning my explanations, and even through out a (laughable) scum motivation for my actions. But you completely didn't even mention me now that you're back.
Those jumps are based on what you did in the meantime. Here's my initial post:
On September 30 2012 15:44 austinmcc wrote: ...
I appreciate things getting off to a nice start, but really? Was I the only person who assumed that Keirathi didn't actually have some giant scumread on Mattchew? Given the reasons that he decided to vote mattchew (amg mattchew has used the term town and hasn't claimed a role that doesn't exist), I don't see the unvote as scummy. Vote for weak reasons, unvote for weak reasons.
Drazerk you ACTUALLY think it's anti-town to do that?
I didn't see your unvote for weak reasons as scummy. Drazerk had just posted that it was third party or idiot, I didn't find it to be telling at all because the reasoning behind the vote in the first place didn't seem strong.
Then after that post, you give your explanation and justification. THAT is what I feel is scummy, reminds me of scum. I'm not concerned about you unvoting based on some weak comments from matt (What drazerk mentioned and what I didn't find scummy), I'm concerned about you based on your later explanation where you claim to have wanted discussion and opinions yet unvote before any of that ever appears.
You're making a mountain out of a mole hill. But I've said all that I can say about it, you're just choosing to interpret it as some super-pro scum motivation. I've been completely open with my thoughts and opinions throughout the entirety of the game, and haven't shied away from having people talking about me.
On October 02 2012 00:58 austinmcc wrote: Right now, I'm scummy on you. I'm not going to lead a crusade to lynch you because the way you explained a plan reminds of what a scum player in another game did, however. For now I'm looking elsewhere for today's lynch, and I'm watching you. I'm alright with the way you discussed Ghost when talking to Gonzaw, I don't think someone can get a free pass for a terrible vote and then not pushing it at all.
I'm not really sure what you mean by the bolded part. You think my explanation is similar to what scum did in another game, and you think I'm scummy, but you don't want to lynch me?
On October 02 2012 00:58 austinmcc wrote: If you want me to keep looking at you, fine. What's up with this?
On October 01 2012 06:03 Keirathi wrote:
On October 01 2012 05:59 gonzaw wrote: At Keirathi: 1)Are you going to start scumhunting soon?
When I feel like there's enough for me to make an actual case that I believe in. Until them, I'm content to ask questions and discuss the current goings-on in the thread to build my reads.
On October 02 2012 00:40 Keirathi wrote:
On October 02 2012 00:36 JingleHell wrote:
On October 02 2012 00:31 austinmcc wrote:
Why exactly do you find that performance embarrassing, and how is it driving you to play the way you are this game? Is it just the constant pushing of Grush and trying to get people on that lynch?
I led several rather key mislynches. As town. Pushing Grush was about the least embarrassing part of my performance, because frankly, he's useless. I do wish he'd died earlier in the game, though.
I don't remember all the specifics at this point off the top of my head, but almost every time I convinced people on someone, it made the overall situation worse.
Clearly, if I make too much case out of too little, it doesn't serve the town, so I'm letting things solidify in my mind and in the thread a bit more before going into hardcore push people mode, because once I do that, there's a tendency for someone to get lynched.
Being in a town-leader-ish position is only good if I don't also get nominated as the scumteam's MVP as town for it.
How long, exactly, do you plan to wait? Theres only 7.5 hours until the deadline.
You've been doing more in thread, but it seems like you're getting on JH for saying he's doing exactly what you've said you're doing. Why is it fine for you to wait to scumhunt until you've got enough to make a case, but it's not alright for JH to wait before pushing someone?
The difference is there's less than 1/4 of the day left, and JH hadn't done much at all so far besides making excuses as to why he isn't playing to his town meta.
Some of that "mountain" is because apparently I'm flip-flopping. You hadn't given your explanations at the time of my original post, so it was difficult to use them in getting a read on you.
As to the bolded, Gonzaw mentioned this when he came into the thread, and I keep mentioning it in my posts. Yes, a chunk of my scumread on you is because I found someone in another game scummy for the same thing (Talismania, can't believe it's not themed mini) - having incongruent explanations for this "plan" of his that was to generate activity. Still figuring out how much of my read on you is based on it being similar to that, and I need to do that before I push a lynch on you. What we don't need is more votes being spread around because of offhand references to one person's experiences in another game. There's too much of that already.
I noticed that too (I think I mentioned it before...maybe? I dunno). However, as the day went on the differences between their play was very noticeable. If you remember, talismania started off with his "bad" plan, spent 100% of his time talking about it and making up excuses and stuff, and then parked his vote on Dropbear. That was the only thing he did, he never participated in discussions or contributed to the lynch.
Keirathi did make the bad plan and tried to rationalize it afterwards, but he's been very active and participant ever since; and there's the difference Anyways ignore me, I just have to do a lot of work tonight and I'm spouting anything that comes into my mouth (hey, at least I'm not talking about masons and the setup )
Also, technically I voted iamperfection before and posted reasoning why, so you (as town) would have it easier to lead the lynch on him after bathing in my wisdom >_> <_<
@Mementos. Whenever I read the thread I never noticed you were there. I only remember you making that case on iamperfection and then answering a question ghost made, nothing else. I would say that is the definition of "didn't do anything". If you did, it didn't have any impact on the game whatsoever and would actually be worse (i.e you are trying to hide and skate by).
Also are you accusing me or something?
If anybody wants to know about that "post" of mine, I had to leave to uni instantly since I had a test 1 hour from then, but had 0 idea on who to vote or if I should keep my vote on iamp, etc. I just wrote whatever was on my mind as quickly as possible, tried to decide who to vote in like 5 seconds, placed the vote and then left.
On October 02 2012 08:54 Mattchew wrote: actually, you calling him scum and then second guessing yourself is what gave me the confidence to stay with it lol
Pfff I had it all planned Wait....the deadline was 1 hour ago? Damn, I think I was home before the deadline (I got home like 1 hour and a half ago), but I assumed the deadline already passed and started reading the thread instead Fuck almost fucked it up.
On October 02 2012 08:58 Mementoss wrote: Also @gonzaw, austin is most likely town for what?
Sheeping onto iamperfection when mattchew told him to? Trying to counterwagon a last minute switch onto keirathi?
Dude, either your out of it this game or scum not sure.
One easy way to show he's town is that gigantic post he made with pretty good reasons on why me and Matt are town. There's only like 4% reason he'd post that as scum (specially using good reasons and not just posting shit to appear he's contributing).
Other than that, again his interactions with people and shit. It's kind of complex to explain in a rush
On October 02 2012 09:52 JingleHell wrote: Luckily, Gonzaw is an arrogant dipshit who forgets that while he was wishy-washy tunneling me, he was actually just throwing around throwaway votes and has no room to "I told you so" anyone, or expect to be treated as town for his vote.
Let's get him tomorrow, gents.
Or am I supposed to ignore his tone in his post and bathe in good feelings because he agreed that I'm town while he spewed all sorts of shit?
"Town you impress me" is kind of the opposite of "I told you so". Hell I expected it to be a misslynch (I even said so myself) so I'm very impressed. If people had done what I told them to they would have lynched you and (unfortunately) you would have flipped town most likely.
Please read carefully before posting. Also I'm not an "arrogant dipshit" and that's the most ironic statement I've seen in TL mafia. Again, carefully read my post, specially the part where I give you advice.
Let's get him tomorrow, gents.
No. Calm down, read the thread carefully, stop being so biased and arrogant and think. After you've done that come back and consider lynching me again. I won't take you seriously until you do @S&B: Dude, start posting NOW or I'll do everything in my power to kill you. If I can ever be justified in tunneling the hell out of you in any game we play together it's in this one. You only have 7 freaking posts, 4 of them having less than 3 lines. @Crossfire: You know, the fact that you forgot it's plurality lynch and not majority lynch actually makes you look worse, since you parked your vote on iamperfection and left. If you were scum maybe you thought there would be a NL so you thought iamperfection was safe before disappearing.
Is this the case? I don't know. If you don't give more thorough reads and actively participate in discussion while giving your thoughts on things discussed and your thought process (<-most important one) I and the rest of town can't know for sure.
iamperfection didn't put too much effort in trying to get ghost lynched. He made that initial vote, and then argued a little bit when he was called out, but never did anything to try and get ghost lynched (for instance, he never came back to the thread to defend himself and try to convince people to vote for ghost).
He could have easily tried to bus ghost and then not do anything since pushing ghost would mean ghost would get lynched, meaning scum lose 1 member anyways.
Although the possibility that he made an easy case on an easy town target is also plausible. Either way, take it with a grain of salt. Analyze ghost by his behaviour alone and not by having an ambigious link to iamperfection. About ghost: (Disclaimer: This isn't supposed to be a case against him or anything. I just want to point out some stuff I want some feedback on since I'm not sure if he's scum or not (although he's a possibility, just like when I added him to that previous list).)
I'd want some discussion on ghost, who I'm torn about and think could be scum (although his attitude at times feels too overconfident to be one).
On October 02 2012 05:36 ghost_403 wrote: Something's off about austin's play this game. I dunno what. I can't put my finger on it, and I have no idea why. I think I'm going to read a few of his previous games.
I'm still happy trying to lynch Keirathi today. After his initial case on Mattchew, he's done more or less no analysis this game. If looking through austin's previous games doesn't yield anything interesting, I might spend a bit more time staring at Keirathi's filter and write up my thoughts on it.
IMP doesn't read like scum to me at a moment. I didn't see anything substantial in the cases presented in the thread to change my mind on that at the moment.
This is the only thing he mentions about iamp. He doesn't mention at all the fact that iamperfection had a half-assed case on him. I find this weird...since anybody would be alert to anybody FoSing them, specially if it's because of bad reasons. For instance, it took me, Mattchew and others to "defend" ghost, but never ghost himself. He doesn't even try to defend himself or acknowledge there's someone voting him, which is odd as hell no matter what alignement iamperfection had. I'd like ghost to tell us why he didn't even bother to acknowledge people's votes/suspicions on him.
Him going after Keirathi seems weird to me too, since I thought Keirathi was pretty apparent town at that point and it seemed ghost ignored the things that made him so just to attack him and form a late bandwagon on him. Although the more I think about it the more I think that there may be players out there that just don't play similarly to me and look at different things to find scum and ignore some others (i.e there's a possibility ghost legitimately thought his case was good) Anyways, feedback would be appreciated.
I'll try not to flood the thread with "I'm not sure about X, so here's a "semi" case against him, and here's a "semi"-defense against him" walls of text, since I know people don't seem too fond of them and ignore them and then label me as scum for being "wishy-washy" or something However, any additional information that can make us figure out someone else's alignement is useful.
Instead of thinking it like "here's a case I'm making against ghost/etc" think of it as "I found this interesting thing, what do you think about it?". Hopefully there are no more misunderstandings regarding my play in the future.
On October 02 2012 09:52 JingleHell wrote: Luckily, Gonzaw is an arrogant dipshit who forgets that while he was wishy-washy tunneling me, he was actually just throwing around throwaway votes and has no room to "I told you so" anyone, or expect to be treated as town for his vote.
Let's get him tomorrow, gents.
Or am I supposed to ignore his tone in his post and bathe in good feelings because he agreed that I'm town while he spewed all sorts of shit?
"Town you impress me" is kind of the opposite of "I told you so". Hell I expected it to be a misslynch (I even said so myself) so I'm very impressed. If people had done what I told them to they would have lynched you and (unfortunately) you would have flipped town most likely.
Please read carefully before posting. Also I'm not an "arrogant dipshit" and that's the most ironic statement I've seen in TL mafia. Again, carefully read my post, specially the part where I give you advice.
Let's get him tomorrow, gents.
No. Calm down, read the thread carefully, stop being so biased and arrogant and think. After you've done that come back and consider lynching me again. I won't take you seriously until you do @S&B: Dude, start posting NOW or I'll do everything in my power to kill you. If I can ever be justified in tunneling the hell out of you in any game we play together it's in this one. You only have 7 freaking posts, 4 of them having less than 3 lines. @Crossfire: You know, the fact that you forgot it's plurality lynch and not majority lynch actually makes you look worse, since you parked your vote on iamperfection and left. If you were scum maybe you thought there would be a NL so you thought iamperfection was safe before disappearing.
Is this the case? I don't know. If you don't give more thorough reads and actively participate in discussion while giving your thoughts on things discussed and your thought process (<-most important one) I and the rest of town can't know for sure.
The only irony here is that you start talking shit (which, thankfully, came well AFTER I pointed to your earlier, lighter efforts at inflammation) and then act like I'm being unreasonable when I turn it around on you.
Oh, and maybe the fact that you're trying to use my defense that you clearly hated against me now. QQ much? No, you're caught, give it up. It wouldn't be the first time that a soft bus wasn't enough to buy someone town cred. Byebye.
You are not making any sense Jingle. Although good job in convincing me you are bad town rather than scum I guess that means you are not actually playing that "bad"? >_> Hell if I know.
If you have a case against me please post it/link to it.
I seriously haven't seen anything resembling a serious accusation from you against me, other than that "you softly bussed iapmerfection" and "he's wishy-washy"
On October 02 2012 11:43 gonzaw wrote: If you have a case against me please post it/link to it.
I seriously haven't seen anything resembling a serious accusation from you against me, other than that "you softly bussed iapmerfection" and "he's wishy-washy"
Oh, so you're ignoring the thread, except when it's convenient? More scumtell-ish-ness. Keep handing me evidence. Certainly, if you're going to make personal attacks, which you did, you should be basing them off the person's posting, which should imply you've read it well enough to know it's there.
Why exactly do you find that performance embarrassing, and how is it driving you to play the way you are this game? Is it just the constant pushing of Grush and trying to get people on that lynch?
I led several rather key mislynches. As town. Pushing Grush was about the least embarrassing part of my performance, because frankly, he's useless. I do wish he'd died earlier in the game, though.
I don't remember all the specifics at this point off the top of my head, but almost every time I convinced people on someone, it made the overall situation worse.
Clearly, if I make too much case out of too little, it doesn't serve the town, so I'm letting things solidify in my mind and in the thread a bit more before going into hardcore push people mode, because once I do that, there's a tendency for someone to get lynched.
Being in a town-leader-ish position is only good if I don't also get nominated as the scumteam's MVP as town for it.
How long, exactly, do you plan to wait? Theres only 7.5 hours until the deadline.
How long do I plan to wait to go into hard-push mode on someone? Until I'm reasonably confident in my assessment. I'm not going to suddenly play differently just to make you happy, so deal with it.
If you really want someone slammed into the floor, take a case and run with it, and slam someone into the floor. Don't wait for a scapegoat to lead the case.
At any rate, my favorite target right now would probably be Gonzaw, between the stuff I've already pointed to, his wishy-washy voting everywhere, and his public "Oh, the person who's most interested in me is going to be my placeholder vote, I'll be back some time after the deadline, which might make that person look scummy if they decided to push". That's survivor play, not town-win play.
In fact, speaking of such, ##Vote Gonzaw
That bolded part was the only one I noticed....and really you expect me to respond to that? I don't even know what to respond to.
The only other point I've seen floating around was how I wasn't helping consolidate the lynch on one target and apparently wanted other people to "lead the bandwagon" for me. Again, I don't know what to respond to because that's true. I can't consolidate a lynch into a target I don't know in 5 minutes. I didn't have time to properly read the filters of iamperfection/Jingle/Mementos/etc to decide who of them to lynch and consolidate on, so yeah, I just put all I had onto the table, and asked other people to take it into account and do something with it.
Oh yeah, I forgot about this one:
I'm seriously starting to get paranoid about Gonzaw. He wants other people to weigh in before he commits to a course of action, he posts in a way intended to spark arguments, he doesn't give a shit who gets lynched, and he spreads suspicion around like icing on a cake.
I don't have any defense about it other than "it's wrong".
I did want people to weigh in before committing to a course of action. A more proper way of wording it would be "I wanted the guys I was suspicious of to post more to figure out their alignment and figure out which one of them is scum...and of course other townies weighing in would be good too".
I don't know how I "post in a way intended to spark arguments"....but even if I did you say I'm doing it on purpose? Fuck if I knew I had that ability I'd have taken advantage of it by now and dominated all my scum games with it
"He doesn't give a shit who gets lynched" is wrong too, don't know what else you want me to say unless you give specific examples
"He spreads suspicion around like icing on a cake" again is wrong too. Unless you substitute "suspicion" with "acknowledgement of odd/scummy play to analyse", in which case it would be correct.
So...yep, hopefully you either stop this bullshit altogether or try to come up with a proper structured case that people can respond to and weigh in their opinion (those that haven't done so already). Try not to spam and don't spend 100% of your time and effort trying to "catch the obvious scum gonzaw!" because it will waste your and everybody's time.
By "come up with a proper structured case" I mean one that at least tries to have good points and has specific examples of stuff you want to prove, but more than that takes into account my general play, contributions, etc and doesn't just completely ignore them (like people did in Can't Believe when they FoSed me).
I'm acting like you should do something useful with your time.
I know I'm town so I know your case is wrong. However you don't know that, so I try to make you figure out if it's wrong, or at least try to make you do something with it. I.e make a case that people can understand and read and do something that contributes to town (as long as nobody sheeps you ) instead of attacking me in every single post of yours and spending 90% of your time posting "let's lynch gonzaw tomorrow" without any further contributions.
However, I know I'm town and I think you are town, so as long as nobody thinks you are scum then I'm completely fine with everybody ignoring your case against me and I'm completely fine with discrediting you for that purpose (as long as you don't shit up the thread).
Anyways, I'll try and look at Nisani and Mementos better in the morning, and maybe Drazerk and S&B. I still fully intend that thing about S&B, he should really step up his game.
Crossfire, I'd also like more contributions, specially who you think is scum/suspicious or at least who you have doubts on. Try to take some initiative.
Okay, first things first: I don't have time to make thorough analysis and stuff (for instance carefully read filters, etc) Second things second: I'll try to post my mild thoughts here (again, take into account I haven't reread filters).
I'm working on a uni project right now, I'm gonna eat and go to uni, and I'll come back after the deadline, so I have no time to put into this.
Anyways, to austin:
Hmm, I guess ghost's actions read town to many. Okay, I'll drop that (unless someone finds something else). I'd still like him to chime in and comment on people other than Keirathi, and to answer my question.
I'm getting better vibes out of Crossfire since his interactions with me and other townies seem genuine this N1, at least that's the guy feeling I get.
This leaves me with 4 guys: Nisani, Mementos, Drazerk, S&B.
There's this little voice in the back of my mind that tells me "Drazerk and S&B are bussing each other to disrupt everything in the thread and cause shitstorms and then when one of them flips the other one plays the 'a confirmed scum wanted me dead therefore I'm town' card; just like that Toad-vs-VE feud from LI". None of them did anything to contribute to town, except maybe Drazerk at some points, but it is still entirely possible he can be scum, since his vote on austin was uber-bad and he just left his vote there and didn't care about the lynch at all (e.g he just posted random videos and left his vote on someone it seemed he didn't even think was scum until the deadline).
S&B did absolutely nothing other than complain against Drazerk.
Mementos is looking better than them, yes, based on him being the "first one to attack iamperfection". At least I can give him the benefit of the doubt over Drazerk/S&B because of that.
Nisani didn't do much, and even though he did seem like a "bored townie" to me when I mentioned him earlier, some scum may be able to emulate that behaviour (and Nisani may be one of them) so he's not completely off the hook. That list is not definitive (like my previous ones) but it's the one I'll be working with on D2 if I'm still alive and nothing out of the ordinary happens (like claims, etc). Little thing about Keirathi: Yes, I agree that there are some "weird" things with him, like that rationalization of his plan he did, and the way he acted towards the deadline wanting to avoid lynching iamp and Drazerk. But meh, considering the rest of his play I can see it coming from a town Keirathi that just didn't read iamp well. Everybody makes mistakes.
On October 03 2012 02:44 Drazerk wrote: I tried to take the mafia KP and shoot scum with it...
There was a UG game where I actually shot a scumbuddy at night. He was confirmed scum by a lynched DT, so we thought "What the hell you'll get lynched tomorrow anyways" and decided to kill him at night. Next day was a NL and the next day we won the game with a misslynch.
Setup Speculation: Disclaimer: Ignore this if you are butthurt about setup speculation and night kill speculation
I take it Mementos did jail someone last night, so anyone claiming RBed would be nice to figure out who did. Don't really know how that Rat Den thing works...are people still allowed to be jailed?
It's possible Mementos jailed Keirathi or austin and they were shot, meaning we'd have 3 remaining scum or a SK or maybe a vig shot Mementos (unlikely but still possible).
If we go by the assumption there are 2 scum left (and 3 scum total, which seems fine for a 13 player game), then Mementos was killed by scum and there was no other saved KP.
Night Kill Speculation:
Well, let's just first assume it was a scum kill. Seems that scum were scared they couldn't actively push Mementos because of his "town cred" of voting iamperfection first and sticking with his vote.
It is entirely possible a scum austin would kill mementos to avoid the pressure and then say "I wouldn't do that as scum"....but really I haven't really seen that happen when non-vet-players are concerned (i.e if it was wbg or Ace or something I wouldn't just shrug it off).
Seems possible scum just saw an opportunity to kill the "guy that will be difficult to lynch" and put some suspicion on austin, whether they intend to act on it or not (as long as it's not suspicion on them).
Well, thank you scum for shooting a suspect instead of, let's say, Hiro or Keirathi or austin. This leaves me 3 guys I'm suspicious of for now: Drazerk, S&B and Nisani.
If we go by the "there are 3 scum" theory, then there should be 2 scum in there. The most "useful" out of them is Drazerk (and that isn't saying much). There's a sort of fearless way he posts that doesn't really make me feel he's scum (like I said before I think). He's kind of overconfident in his "trolling". He posts lots of one-liners which is null-scummy at best, but meh, gut feeling tells me he'd post less "advice" as scum and try to shit up the thread more (if he's going by the "post trolling one-liners" route) instead of just sort of "being" there posting whatever comes across his mind and not caring about anything. He goes to the bottom of that list.
It doesn't really help that the other 2 guys on that list want him dead so bad. strongandbig: I again repeat what I said before: he had 7 posts on D1 and 4 of them were smaller than 3 lines (and didn't have any content at all).
On October 01 2012 14:25 strongandbig wrote: here's what im thinking right now
hiro might be scum because he's posted a lot of small one-liners and asked a bunch of questions but not actually contributed much of anything of his own in terms of reads or analysis.
drazerk might be scum because he switched his read from keirathi to me for little reason. not giving any reason why he unvoted keirathi shows that he doesn't really care about who he votes for, he just wants to push the thread around. he knows that he and i often get into shitfights and it's advantageous for him as scum to try and start one, as long as he thinks i won't be able to push a scum read on him through, which he probably does because he's arrogant. the thing is - his argument works both ways around - he says that I should know he doesn't actually try to win as town, but he focuses on third party, so my calling him out for that makes me scum. The thing is, I call him out for that every game - his attempting to call me out on it this game for being scum makes no sense. he's trying to use circular logic but it backfired.
mattchew is sort of trying to scumhunt. this is very helpful in narrowing down his playstyle. he's either doing his bus-all-the-scum scum routine, or he's actually townie. mattchew very rarely makes up fake scum reads on town players when he's scum, he either posts cases on his teammates or just lurks the shit out of everything. so what that means is you can put a high amount of trust that his reads are genuine - he's either bussing or actually trying to find scum.
crossfire99 - pretty focused on drazerk
nisani - lol. what a "case".
also ##vote: drazerk I think he's probably scum and I want him out of this game.
This post has 0 committal. It's not only just a list of "sort of" reads, but it's a list with no context at all that he never dwells back on. He never mentions Hiro, Mattchew or Crossfire again.
This is just a big pile of fluff and it disappoints me S&B would post this instead of interacting with people and fleshing out his reads in the thread.
Making 1 paragraph saying "Mattchew is trying to scumhunt, could be scum or not" is not a read or content at all. If he had started talking to Mattchew or trying to figure out Mattchew's alignment it would be one thing, but he just drops a "stupid" list and doesn't even care about it.
Same with this one:
On October 03 2012 03:11 strongandbig wrote: Sorry I've been less than up to my standards. Been busy, whatever. /shrugs. A few thoughts: 1. Because the vote was so close and there were so few ppl on iamperfection, it would not have looked bad for scum to be somewhere else and any scum on iamperfection could relatively easily have switched to avert his lynch. If there was scum on him it was sub-optimal play. Scum do stupid things; I got hammered by my teammates once while I was off playing dota. But in the balance I propose looking away from the iamperfection voters for now. 2. Drazerk's whole play is based around the premise "I refuse to try and look or be townie, so fuck you for trying to analyze me." We should kill him, it's the only sensible town response to that play. Also I think he's scum because he jumps around on votes without a care in the world, and because of that circular reasoning thing from before. Still, I'm not as sure about him as I have been in the past. 3. Getting medium bad vibes from jingle, but I can't put my finger on why. 4. Nisani looks pretty useless - his reasoning for voting Drazerk is pretty dumb IMO and it seems like he's doing some stupidly weak pressure. Like the best he came up with was "too many null reads". 5. I can't remember the last time Austin was scum, any help? Laters
One thing I can't possibly understand is his fixation with Drazerk. Ever since his 1st post he's been 100% obsessed with lynching Drazerk without any solid reasoning. He just states "Drazerk calls me out because I called him out, but he should have known I call him out every game so he's scum" and "Drazerk says he doesn't care about winning". Yes, maybe those points are enough to warrant suspicion on Drazerk, but not to spend 100% of your posts trying to lynch him and forgetting about everything else. There's also the fact that he didn't try to get Drazerk lynched at all, he just FoSed him and disappeared until after the deadline.
Also I find odd how he calls out Nisani both times:
nisani - lol. what a "case".
Nisani looks pretty useless - his reasoning for voting Drazerk is pretty dumb IMO and it seems like he's doing some stupidly weak pressure. Like the best he came up with was "too many null reads".
...but he never does anything with it? I don't really like making connections between living players since I'm generally wrong, but shit if that isn't a "let's pressure my scumbuddy but not get him lynched" action. Nisani:
On September 30 2012 14:32 Nisani201 wrote: ##Vote: Drazerk
I don't understand why he's still pushing against Keirathi. His plan was clearly poorly thought out, I see no scum motivation behind it. Drazerk is taking a newbie mistake and calling it scum play.
Like I said before this post struck me as odd, since Nisani had 0 contributions in the thread yet came out of nowhere with a vote almost instantly. Same with JingleHell, but at least JingleHell seemed genuine about it (i.e he came suddenly and forcefully into the thread and has kept up his activity and forceful..ness? ever since). Nisani came "strong" into the thread, like he instantly knew Drazerk was scum without ever trying to join a discussion and then disappeared.
On October 02 2012 06:33 Nisani201 wrote: Alright I've finally caught up on the thread.
First of all, I understand what jingle is saying about being discouraged to be aggressive because of playing a lot of shitty games. I've played plenty of bad games as town and they don't push me to play better. See learned helplessness.
I also think it's unfair to call out Jingle for not scumhunting because he's been under fire this entire game. I don't think he's scum.
I'm null on perfection-- I don't like how he's only talking about ghost but other than that he doesn't have anything else scummy about him. I'd like to hear about his reads on other people.
I still don't understand why we're letting Drazerk get away with playing an incredibly shitty game. He has *way* too many null reads and is barely contributing. I'm going to keep my vote on him. I mean just look through his filter and you'll see how little he's contributed.
Gonzaw is someone I'm going to spend some more time looking into. Something feels off about him.
This is his only contribution in the game other than his Drazerk vote. This post feels wrong:
-His defense of Jingle feels like it came out of nowhere -He's "null" on perfection and spouts some wishywashy stuff about him and puts the usual "I want him to post more reads, I'll wait for him" scum tactic scum always use with their buddies (I should know of I always use it). -He's now fixated on Drazerk again, but for completely different reasons than in his 1st post, and he never explains his change of opinion on Drazerk (or rather what made him "upgrade" his read). Making an initial vote early on D1 because of some stupid play is not the same as heavily FoSing someone because they lack contributions and shit, and that transition he made doesn't feel genuine at all. A townie would at least try to explain his read and how his read evolved (for instance saying something like "I initially thought Drazerk was scum just because he was taking advantage of that, but reading his filter more and more he lacks contributions, like here *example* and bla bla bla").
He's just doing the same thing S&B is doing and FOS Drazerk with as little reasoning as possible, never trying to push for his lynch and never caring about anything else that's happening other than making a "contribution" post with irrelevant stuff that they never discuss ever again. Anyways, I don't really know who to vote of, I want them both dead.
I think Nisani is more likely to be scum though, so let's start there: ##Vote: Nisani201
I just don't know if S&B is purposefully trolling and playing like shit for some reason. In Can't Believe he did some "trolling posts" on D1 as well, but at least he was more active.
P.S [Speculation] Shit now that I think about it it's possible all 3 of S&B, Nisani, Drazerk are scum and are making a super bus play or something (since it seems that's the only thing scum do these days). But I'm wary of that since it would have meant I got all 3 scum correct last night and scum chose not to shoot me and shot the 4th guy from my list...and well that's too convinient (even though it could have happened and they did it to WIFOM me, like when scum didn't shoot Nova in Magic Mini and countless of times).
You are willing to entertain the idea that 2 of the most active players, and most contributors (in a way) are scum but you won't entertain the idea that guys that didn't do shit on D1 or N1, where never around, didn't care about discussion or the lynch at all, and the only contribution they had was 1 post with a "list" of reads that were full of fluff aren't?
Entertain the idea please, at least so you pay attention to them. If you think they are town and me or austin scum then please state so
lol it's Can't Believe all over again (replace talismania with iamperfection).
I don't see anything wrong with what I did, I can't lie and be "confident" on someone being scum when I'm not. I'll just ignore any "link" you guys think there is between me and iamperfection since it's not worth time arguing about (again, it will end up the same as Can't Believe and you guys are and will be grasping at straws).
Don't ignore everything I said about Nisani either just because you think I'm being a scummy hypocrite or something (which I'm not if you actually think about it).
On October 03 2012 11:48 Drazerk wrote: Also heres an idea
What if there was a targetable lightning rod used last night?
What do you mean?
Also, I can't believe Mementos wouldn't jail anybody at all.
I can't defend myself on connections with iamperfections.
And I already said I don't like making those kind of connections since I'm wrong most of the time (I hope I am not this time though, but I'm not basing my case on said connection, I'm using it in a "it doesn't contradict it and would make sense" way).
Please comment on Nisani and S&B, I won't let this day be you guys being blinded by "my scumminess" and not doing anything else at all.
There wasn't a lightning rod in the last Aperture Mafia game...? Do you at least have evidence of there being a lightning rod in any game of mafia?
It doesn't make much sense, who used it? Scum? Then they can't use any abilities on anybody and can only use them on the guy they kill. Town? Then they can tunnel all scum actions into anybody of his choice. He's basically a vig that saves all scum KP and abilities the same night he makes a shot, and that's unbalanced as hell 3rd party? That's the only possibility I can see but it still seems like a stretch
Is there anything in particular why you mentioned that? What makes you think there could be a lightning rod? Aren't all KP/actions accounted for? Or is it because apparently Mementos didn't jail anybody? (Nisani, S&B and I think Crossfire have yet to claim though)
If there is one and he's town he should claim, because if not he'll fuck any analysis that can be made from night actions (both kill and made by blues). Doubt he exists anyway.
Drazerk, what do you think about what happened these past few hours? Do you agree with Jingle+Keirathi, or maybe with me, or with neither of us?
On October 04 2012 01:52 strongandbig wrote: i still want to kill drazerk. can someone please explain to me why it's okay for him to play like he is?
Why? You never explain exactly why you want to lynch Drazerk, you always just put some one-liners about how "he's playing a shitty game" and "he doesn't care about town". Why don't you make a case and tell us exactly why he's scum? I already explained a lot of things that made me wary of Drazerk being scum and seem more of a towntell, so why don't you go and explain to me why those things make him scum instead of town?
I.E: Explain why the things he did further a scum agenda and it's not just something a town Drazerk would do
that said, I think nisani is the best lynch at the moment. his filter just doesn't feel town to me, and i agree with whoever it was who said his little "i am null on iamperfection i want to hear more reads etc" thing sounds like how scum talk about each other when forced to.
Why didn't you push him yesterday? You mentioned him as scummy lots of times but never paid attention to him.
You aren't really caring about the game, your function is basically posting "comments" and then disappearing. You comment how you want to kill Drazerk, then disappear. You comment how Nisani is scummy, then you disappear.
You are never trying to discuss anything at all. I just skimmed that game you were just misslynched, and look at that! The 1st thing you did in the whole game was start a discussion and discuss with people/interact with them.
You posted coherently and legible, you don't post your trollish "posts full of one-liners" that lack proper punctuation and you don't spend 100% of your time saying "kill X" without expanding your read or explaining yourself.
Really the differences in your play both these games are astonishing, do you have an explanation for that or are you just bored scum in this one?
P.S: I've read your filter again and you do have 1 post where you do the "fail punctuation and post all the irrelevant thoughts I have", here Still, after and before that you showed more effort in consolidating your posts and contributing something to the game, here you havent.
also i've thought about it and i think that saying this is a good idea right now: my night action was successful but i don't have complete control over who it targets.
Fuck I hate it when people do this. Now i have to wonder all game whether this is true or if you are scum that just took the chance to claim made a night action to misdirect people.
On October 03 2012 23:07 austinmcc wrote: On searching for roleblocked people
WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT? Anyone who was roleblocked shouldn't be claiming, and should easily understand this. Apparently there's a role that swaps players on the player list, and anyone who swaps into whoever Mementoss targeted's spot on the list would be JKed.
So claiming rb = probably claiming JK = giving mafia knowledge about protections. I don't see a town purpose to having that info in thread.
How is the player list swapping important even if we know who Mementos jailed? Maybe I'm not understanding it fully though
Also austin....what else? You haven't mentioned Jingle's and Keirathi's moves against me nor my cases against S&B/Nisani
On October 03 2012 14:38 Nisani201 wrote: Gonzaw I like your case on snb. However your case on me makes no sense.
Mattchew you have been making a lot of sense lately. What do you think of snb?
Also I still think drazerk is scum, if him or snb aren't on the same team then I'm certain they're anti-town
Why does my case not make sense?
Nisani, what do you think of any of the other players you haven't mentioned at all this game? (ghost, austin, Crossfire, etc) Also, what do you think of snb? PRE-EDIT: @Mattchew: What exactly makes you have a strong town-read on S&B? I'm curious.
I don't think Jingle would be this aggressive and "active" as scum. He's all over the place and is making such "obvious" mistakes (going against you for shitty reasons, then tunneling me all freaking game, etc) that I doubt he'd willingly make those actions as scum. He seems much more like overconfident townie that "already figured the scum team out" and doesn't care about anything else but his ego. I don't think his attitude and activity is something he'd fake as scum.
Remember that at some points he was just posting and posting and posting and posting. That'd take A LOT of trouble as scum to fake, specially if it doesn't seem to further any real scum agenda other than "keep shitting on gonzaw/Mattchew", which like I said isn't really a good scum agenda anyways.
I find it odd how S&B things both Drazerk and Nisani are scum, and Nisani thinks both S&B and Drazerk are scum, yet none of them vote for any of them or anything.
Why are S&B and Nisani acting so similar in this game?
Town reading is what prevents town from mislynching (misslynching you for instance) and reduce scum suspects, you shouldn't underestimate it (or rather, you shouldn't assume it's something only scum would do...seriously why do people keep thinking this?)
On October 04 2012 03:33 Keirathi wrote: Regarding gonzaw:
I just can't get over how 1) he accuses Nisani of being wishy-washy towards iamperfection and 2) says thats what what he would do as scum, when thats EXACTLY what he had done this game.
When he said that, I thought "Hey, thats a reasonable thing to accuse Nisani for. Lets check gonzaw's filter and see how he interacted with iamp." And it was literally exactly the same thing he was accusing Nisani of.
Like I said, I don't see anything wrong with it.
If I say "Scum always say X" it doesn't mean "Townies never say X". Again, think of it as "Player Y saying X doesn't contradict him being scum, and based on pragmatics it makes him more likely to be scum based on what I found earlier" instead of "Player Y says X ↔ Player Y is scum"
Also...you can't really compare what I said about iamperfection and what Nisani said as the same thing. Because really they are not, go back and reread both statements we made about him and see the difference.
Here I'll make it simpler for you:
I acknowledge iamperfection hasn't contributed much and wanted him to do so, but I made an effort in trying to figure out his alignment with the info I had. My "wishy-washy" view on iamperfection is consistent with everything I've been saying up to that point about most players in the game (that they lack content and haven't even tried to contribute to the lynch)
Nisani acknowledged iamperfection hasn't contributed much and wanted him to do so, but made no effort whatsoever in figuring out his alignment. His "wishy-washy" view on iamperfection is not consistent with his views on other people, i.e it came out of the blue with no context whatsoever, etc
If you want to get subtle there are plenty of differences, which don't make me "scummy as fuck", or at least don't make Nisani more town (really how do you keep ignoring that?)
On October 02 2012 06:33 Nisani201 wrote: Gonzaw is someone I'm going to spend some more time looking into. Something feels off about him.
You know Nisani, I would have thought you'd jump into Jingle's wagon against me based on this, but you don't even comment about it, and your last post makes it seem like you aren't even suspicious of me. Why is that?
Well Nisani, I'm getting a little wary of S&B because that type of posts may have been made by a busy/non-caring townie, specially when he made similar ones in that other game of his (and that "I had a night action" thing seems weird if he was scum)
If I start thinking about it though, he's the only option left as scum for me (other than Drazerk), so he must be scum too.
But meh, I'm much more certain you are scum since I don't have anything to be "wary" about you being town, you are just not contributing and not caring but you don't even admit it (at least S&B admitted it)., which means you are trying to hide the fact that you do.
Also....the point was to make the case on S&B and then say "Nisani did the same thing as S&B". I guess I should have done it the other way round? I dunno, I didn't really want to repeat myself too many times. Your "reads" were non-comittal as well (and I already mentioned it when I quoted that "contributions" post of yours).
For fucks sake when will Crossfire or ghost ever come here to do something?
Okay, Nisani is getting quite a lot of votes. If anybody has any objections or thoughts about this this is the time to talk.
Nisani, if you are town you know what you should do right? I'll take your silence and lack of fighting back as surrendering as scum from now on.
On October 04 2012 09:15 Crossfire99 wrote: First things, first. I will say that I still have my same town reads on Mattchew, hiro, and ghost. I explained them in an earlier post but they're basically due to day 1 voting. I still see keirathi as town as well due to activity, boldness, confidence and his posting behavior.
Gonzaw, what's with this whole thing between you and jingle? I'm going to take a closer look at it, but would like to hear your opinion on it.
Jingle thinks he caught scum in me at first because I was accusing him (basically it was indeed OMGUS at the beginning) and "was wishy-washy" and "didn't care about the lynch" and "he conveniently disappeared before the deadline", which he used as confirmation bias for his previous read on me and made it stronger.
After that it seems he caught momentum and went all out to attack me and ignored everything else in the thread. At this point I changed my read of him to town but started discrediting him so he wouldn't start a shitstorm and bandwagon against me. After that he uses confirmation bias on anything I do, as anything I do "is claiming scum" to him by this point.
It's unlikely he's scum because he's playing the "tunneling townie" part too well; and if he's town I don't think he will stop soon (at least until Nisani flips red hopefully). I'm fine with that since nobody is listening to him, so as long as he doesn't shit up the thread this is fine by me. I'd really like more contributions from him about other players (in particular Nisani/Drazerk/S&B), just in case so I get a better read of him (since there's a possibility he can be scum), but well, you see I've tried to no avail.
Also, what was exactly that made you "have a strong town-read" on him initially, and what was your thought process in this huge change of heart of yours?
Anyways, I'm happy that the 2 lynch candidates are between Nisani and S&B so I'm not complaining. Hell, like I said maybe both flip scum do today's lynch decision wouldn't even matter.
However, right now we don't know their alignments so we need to take the better course of action so we have to be sure the guy we lynch is scum
Mattchew, do you think that perhaps S&B is very busy or doesn't care about the game as town? He's acting "too obvious" in that aspect, he admits himself he's not caring about the game and "having an off week at mafia", and it's obvious he's not playing like he uses to when town (or maybe even when scum, but I only barely skimmed that game where he was scum). I would have thought he'd try a little bit harder as scum. On that aspect Nisani seems to be playing like I'd expect a "low-profile" scum, specially one with the style of play of Nisani
Like I siad I don't remember S&B playing this bad/not caring. He usually seems to make those "derpy" posts where he spouts a bunch of unrelated stuff that come to his mind without punctuation and stuff as town, like this one from GSL 2:
On September 27 2012 05:27 strongandbig wrote: hey okay so i just reread the whole thread it is assfuckingly short lets get some more shit out there,
okay terrible mixing of metaphors there but whatever
anyway here's what I think - at first I thought sinensis was scum because he's not being a huge dick but then i realized i was confusing him with sinani. there goes that whole post.
so now i think ottoxlol is maybe scum because he posts a bunch of short posts but doesn't really say much of substance.
austinmcc always posts like a billion things.
shiaopi i am calling you out. last game we played together you derped your way through because you were blue, then you solved the game but it was too late. If you're town I call on you to play this whole game for reals even if you are blue, you've shown you can do good analysis (even if your case wasn't very well presented, you did solve the game) so people are going to want you to keep doing it now. what do you think about ottoxlol.
The thing is that I never saw him doing it every single post as in this one. I remember him posting with a similar "I don't care" attitude in Can't Believe, but now that I go back and read it he was 100x times more helpful and contributed even though I found him scummy all D1/N1.
The thing that bothers me is that it's possible he's legitimately busy or doesn't care as town. Seems unlikely to me but it's enough of a possibility that makes me want to lynch Nisani more.
What really made me doubt lynching him was him explaining his "night action went through". I see no reason for him to do this as scum, since at some point he will have to explain what that action was and he would have to lie (unless he wants to claim he RBed or Framed someone or something like that). Why would scum give himself a burden without any reason? I did think about how he, as scum, could say that to appear more townie and fearless and make us WIFOM about it....but still, it's something that just tells me "damn this seems wrong" about lynching him. It's not enough to exonerate him or anything, it's just something that comes up that throws some doubt into all of this.
Hmm, now that I think about it: S&B, can you tell us what that night action you had was?
I don't know if that answer would do good or not, but if he has a shitty role with a shitty action that can be verifiable I don't see how it can hurt. If he's a town medic or something it obviously won't....but him being that seems unlikely.
About Nisani, well I couldn't really say since I don't remember any games where he was town (I only remember him from Aperture where he was scum/SC). The thing is that "not being productive" is not the only thing that makes me (and others I guess) suspicious of him. It's what he has posted, how he "tried" to contribute, and how little he's been on anybody's radar, whether he's being productive or not (for instance Drazerk isn't being productive at all, yet he's not "under the radar" at all and doesn't try to blend in).
Anyways, let's see what other people think. I don't think Hiro, ghost, Jingle, Drazerk nor Keirathi weighed in on Nisani nor S&B.
Hmm, that's interesting, S&B could be 3rd party alright.
However there wasn't any additional KP last night, so we can assume if there's a 3rd party it's not a SK kind of role right? Maybe it's more of a survivor, or like someone said a lyncher (and he has to get Drazerk lynched for instance).
I wanted to see if someone claimed JKed or shot because of this as well, to see if there are additional KPs flying around.
If the 3rd party has no KP, shouldn't we focus on killing scum that have KP? Hmm, I'm kind of torn about it, but it does seem like Nisani scum and S&B 3rd party are possible. I just can't comprehend S&B's play this game.
Anyways, Jingle and Keirathi, you guys have effectively spend all D2 FoSing me and nothing else, and right now you are wasting your votes and not contributing at all. Wtf dudes?
Hmm, if P-BODY claims it could go on to basically confirm both of you as town (or really bold 3rd parties), or at least put both of you into the spotlight and see if your actions at night confirm you both (if for instance you "save" another shot).
Who was your target that was shot? I don't see any reason to not claim since scum would shoot him anyways, and it may semi-confirm him as town as well (unless he was shot by a SK-type role).
When P-BODY targets player X and you target player Y, then it means both you and P-Body target both X and Y at the same time? Or did I get that wrong?
Another thing: If scum shoot you directly, do you take a hit to your "extra lives" as well? Or do you die instantly? Hmm, well, I don't see why we shouldn't lynch Nisani today, unless in a weird state of events he claims P-Body (but I heavily doubt it).
Also, again like always I'm leaving to uni until after the deadline (cue Jingle FoSing me again). I'm leaving in about 1 hour or so.
But your role would be useless and you would be a confirmed "vig", and there would be no ambiguity abotu S&Bs shot.
1-shot vigs always claim their shots since they become VTs afterwards, whether they land or not (normally they claim right before the deadline so they are confirmed).
If you are scum/3rd party you could have lied when in fact you as scum/SK shot S&B's target. Or you could have just made a very bold move as SK/scum and actually shot S&B and then claimed it for some reason
@S&B: Can you confirm that the shot on you was supposed to go on your target or if it went directly to you?
If P-Body claims then he couldn't have made up that stuff. That's like the easiest way to see if his claim is legit or not (P-Body should have a similar claim)
Drazerk, you claimed your ability, you might as well claim your role name (if it's something like "Chell" or "Companion Cube" then it's not the same if it's "Aperture Science Turret" or hell maybe even "Cave johnson" or maybe even "Wheatly")
On October 05 2012 01:46 Drazerk wrote: If he is a reverse hider its possible he would take the target's alignment as well
...?
The GF is already dead (iamperfection). Iamperfection seemed like the most "buffed up" scum (with GlaDOS seeming the most "obvious" villain) and had a lot of powers. He was GF, RBer, etc. I don't think another scum has similar abilities to him.
On October 05 2012 01:48 strongandbig wrote: Gonzaw I've said - I don't know whether or not P-BODY is town or scum or third party. I'm guessing he's town because of the flavor - I think the odds are good but I don't think it's conclusive and you can't treat it as 100% that the people claiming those are the same alignment.
If someone claims P-Body it confirms both your roles. It means you weren't lying your ass out there when you are in fact "Aperture Turret Nº 2" or something like that. It proves you are ATLAS and it proves the other guy is P-BODY (and if you are both scum making a gambit, surely another ALTAS/P-BODY can claim or you'd get found out very easily)
That's a lot of information that helps town tremendously, and it also puts a lot of pressure on both of you (so you keep your promises with night actions and stuff, and you keep up contributions and shit) to help us figure out your real alignments.
On October 05 2012 01:51 Drazerk wrote: Because role names have no say on alignment how do you not know this yet?
Yeah, because GlaDOS could obviously be town.
You may have been given a fake-claim as scum, it's a possibility; but if you are scum I want you to take the chance and expose yourself (even then there may be inconsistencies with what you claim and your own abilities. For instance if you claim "Companion Cube" I couldn't possibly believe you would be a vig, so we lynch you)
Is there a reason for you not to tell us your role name? The only reason I can think of is that it would give scum an idea of what powers you may have. But you already outed your ability so that shouldn't worry you
Anyways, seems Nisani still hasn't shown up at all. Good, let him hang.
Also I get the feeling this discussion will get us into a giant shitstorrn where we'll end up lynching Drazerk or S&B or maybe a P-BODY claimer or something. I still want people to consider Nisani when we are talking about all this.
Meh whatever, it doesn't matter. The deed is done, you refused to tell us your role name, you can't change that no matter what you do and you'll obviously claim some "town" role now no matter your alignment (this is surely enough time for you to ask for a safe-claim as scum). I'd really like it if you do though (even as scum).
I suggest we let S&B live as long as these 2 conditions are met: 1)P-Body claims at some point (preferably soon) and confirms S&B's role 2)We let S&B confirm himself by using his night action. At worst if he's scum it means he'll either out himself or scum won't be able to kill the most pro-town guys (since S&B would supposedely be protecting him).
On October 05 2012 02:03 Drazerk wrote: FAKE CLAIMING IS SO EASY BECAUSE YOU JUST ADD DETAILS AND ROLE INFO T_T
How do you fake night protections and how do you fake nobody shooting at you even though you claimed vet/medic that lost 1 life (and most likely doesn't have any other)? How do you fake someone else claiming P-BODY for you? Again, if your scumbuddy claims P-BODY for you, how can you be sure there isn't an actual ATLAS or P-BODY role out there and you'll be cc'ed? And how do you escape the fact that none of you will die by KP and have to explain that, and as soon as 1 of you dies the other one becomes basically confirmed scum?
If he's fake-claiming...well I could see scum having 1 bullet-proof at night or "vet"-type role, although he'd have to lie about all the rest (about protecting Hiro and stuff).
On October 05 2012 02:10 gonzaw wrote: Nisani, are you aware that you are currently getting lynched? Do you have anything to say about that...?
^Also that was a joke; although it's not that far-fetched now that I think about it
Can we get a votecount?
No, I don't really have anything to say about that. I've played enough games and been lynched enough times to realize that defending myself is useless.
Okay, I'll take that as a scumclaim.
At least you can post reads/contributions other than "gonzaw's case on S&B is good" and "I don't believe his claim".
On October 05 2012 02:24 Drazerk wrote: BTW Gonzaw I've given up defending myself multiple times as town. Its not a scum tell
He didn't even try. I didn't see him even address one of the countless points being used against him once.
That's not even caring.
I can understand a townie giving up defending himself if he defended himself to begin with and got frustrated and couldn't convince anybody.
Other than "gonzaw's case doesn't make sense" he had 0 defense. Why the hell would you do that as town...? I mean....look at D2, there was almost no discussion, but there were no shitstorms nor arguments that can make you "rage" and "rage-quit" or anything. People just came in, posted thoughts and voted Nisani.
Why the hell wouldn't he defend himself against that? If he's town that's the laziest any townie has been in the history of mafia, and I doubt even Nisani would be that lazy.
Am I the only one that thinks the impossible happened?
Damn...this is not funny at all.
Well, I'm speechless and I don't really know what to do. It kind of bums me out Hiro/austin/Crossfire/ghost/Keirathi/Jingle didn't do anything all D2 right up until the very end but I thought it wouldn't have mattered (once Nisani flipped red)
I won't call anybody out until I think about this for a second.
On October 05 2012 02:43 austinmcc wrote: Why would you want that answered? As far as I can tell, the answer to that question is ONLY useful to scum. Whether you believe his claim or not...asking "Mr. Bodyguard, how exactly can you be killed?" is NOT information that needs to be out in the open.
That question gives me SERIOUS red flags. I need to look back over you.
Well...because I wanted scum to have the chance to shoot him at night mostly (to remove a suspect) (or rather know if scum can shoot him at night). If he's scum and gives us the info "I only have 1 extra life" it get's much more difficult for him to explain surviving each remaining night, and if he's town maybe scum shoot him instead of someone else and remove us from a suspect we aren't sure about (at that time, when P-body didn't claim)
You think because I played so actively and visibly in Liar Game I can as easily do it again in a minigame? (remember they are not the same type of games) Why is that always used against me? "You could have done that as scum if you play just like you did in the Liar Game, therefore you are scummy"
Why don't you look at Bureaucracy mafia and see if I did similar stuff? I mean, that one is closer in time. Anyways, damn, I'm getting the feeling I'm going to end up playing badly this game again (i.e I'm going to have shitty reads) and I'm gonna get misslynched or get close to misslynched. If I have to change my town reads on Hiro/ghost/austin/Crossfire/Jingle then I may end up getting confused again.
But fuck, I was so convinced Nisani was scum this seems like a bad joke on me. Seriously, that's a first.
Well, I take him as "confirmed" town for now so I don't plan on changing my read of him.
If I do need to change my read on him then it doesn't really matter since both him and scum S&B would be immediately outed without my help at finding them.
*sigh* The easiest option for scum right now is Drazerk, or if turn a blind eye to my gut Jingle; but shit I hate it when this happens in games.
Hopefully there is only 1 scum left and 1 3rd party survivor or something so I feel better about myself in post-game.
Yes, that's what I see now, which is why this game is giving me a headache right now.
No, Mattchew is most likely town and I don't doubt that....at least for now.
If I have to make a quick response about "who's scum" I'd have to say one of these: Hiro-ghost-Drazerk-Jingle
But I'm not in the mood right now to start completely changing my reads on them. Being in this situation also makes me doubt the other players still (Mattchew, austin and Crossfire).
Again, the "easiest" answer I can give you without having to drastically change my point of view is "Drazerk" and maybe "Jingle" (because honestly he's the easiest one I can FoS and just say "maybe he's that reckless as scum anyway" and brush it off).
I have to reread filters though, I can't answer anything seriously until I do. Hopefully tomorrow I have time and go to uni later in the day and not so early.
On October 05 2012 12:00 JingleHell wrote: I think he overdid the whole effort to stay alive by trying to ingratiate himself by calling people town.
Okay, I've had enough of this. I've tried to just ignore you, but there's a real possibility you can be scum so I just want to get this over with:
Make a damn case against me
Come on, I dare you.
You've been actively buggering me and everybody "assuming" I'm scum but other than "in D1 he FoSed me" and "he's discrediting me yet calling me town" I haven't seen nor remember any point you made about me being scum at all.
You have been all "oh look, scum gonzaw has townreads! He's obvious scum" or "look, scum gonzaw wants to do X! more scumminess that should convince everybody he's scum". Those are not points about me being scum, those are points you twist to convince yourself your scumread on me (which I still don't quite get where it came from) is not shitty. It's confirmation bias, everybody does it, hell I may have done it with Nisani back there (in hindsight there were some things he said that struck me as odd for scum to say, but I just shrugged it off as "scum trying to misdirect me"; for instance when he didn't jump on the wagon against me when I FoSed him and didn't even try to discredit me and actually "liked" my case on S&B) But you can't rely on those to make a case.
So come on, go, read my filter and make a case, I have all N2 to wait for it, I know I'm not getting killed by scum tonight anyways (again, just like Can't Believe).
Everything in my play eerily seems to be exactly like in there (at least before D2), down to me being town to me having shitty reads (as it pains me to say) and getting FoSed all over the place, to "defending" (somehow) a flipped scum and getting shit for it, etc.
Hell, if I'm so "obvious" scum it should be easy as hell for you to make that case on me. If I'm scum I'm basically begging you to catch me, convince everybody I'm scum and get me lynched.
So why aren't you taking that chance? Don't you want other guys like austin/Crossfire/etc who think I'm town to realize what a scummy monster I am?
If you are town, make a case against me. It's what any sane townie would do in your situation (I'm "obvious scum" to you and town desperately needs a scum lynch on D3).
If you don't I'll try to get you lynched for it, it's as easy as that (to either motivate you to stop fucking around if you are town or to just get you lynched if you are scum). Okay, that's as far as I'll go getting aggressive here, I'm past that point in my mafia career, no need to get all pissy about it.
On October 05 2012 13:17 JingleHell wrote: Oh, sorry, did the last time I summed it up have too many big words?
I'm really tired of reminding you that my case against you is to convince others, ]not you. Don't get all pissy about me getting sick of you talking shit while you try to run roughshod over the town. You're scum, and I've already laid it out for everyone.
I'd really like people's input on this.
Was someone ever convinced I was scum because of Jingle's "cases"? I only remember Keirathi voting me because of something he found by himself in my posts (about wanting to get Nisani lynched for something I do as scum as well, and to him I was doing so in D1) and austin got suspicious of me because of that question I asked S&B. Oh yeah Mementos got suspicious of me because I was not "convincing people to consolidate on a specific lynch" and he kind of OMGUSed me when I called him out.
Hell, some people even stated how you are scummy as shit as well and you've been "dicking on gonzaw" (I think it was Crossfire who said that).
You want to convince "others" that I'm scum but you are doing a very bad job, achieving the opposite of what you are looking for;and what's worse, you seem to not realize that and keep fooling yourself
Seriously Jingle, if you are town you can't be this dense. If you keep up with this I'll have no choice but to assume you are scum.
On October 05 2012 13:17 JingleHell wrote: I'm really tired of reminding you that my case against you is to convince others, not you.
by me: You want to convince "others" that I'm scum but you are doing a very bad job, achieving the opposite of what you are looking for;and what's worse, you seem to not realize that and keep fooling yourself
Why are you under the assumption that you are trying to "convince others" I'm scum when it obviously failed and you actually got suspicion on yourself from many players (like Mattchew and Crossfire, and maybe someone else)?
Of course again counting the fact that you are not trying to convince anybody I'm scum
You just quote stuff I do and point out "lol obvs scum". You don't seem to try and convince anybody.
Have you asked Mattchew why he thinks I'm town, argued against his points and try to convince him I'm scum? No Have you argued against any of those points austin made in his gigantic post about why I'm town and try to convince him I'm scum? No >repeat for everybody that thinks I'm town
I'd instantly label you as scum in any game....but again I had that gut feeling you were just that bad of a townie and got into a tunneling vision you can't get out of and you can't take a step back and think twice about it. My gut feeling seems wrong in all these games though, so I could ignore it this time to lynch your ass if you don't start giving answers.
P.S: I'll try this to be the last post in direct response to Jingle to not shit up the thread. Jingle I already posted what I needed to post, and all you guys can see it, so put your thoughts/pressure Jingle/etc. If I keep posting surely Jingle will keep insulting me and not doing anything.
Please make points about me being scum that don't have anything to do with you or "starting fights" with you or "insulting" you or discrediting you or "misinterpreting" you.
I'll deal with all your concerns here (yeah it will be a big post). Hopefully we can get past this now, or at least I hope you'll try harder if you still think I'm scum:
On September 30 2012 09:03 JingleHell wrote: Hello gents. Let's get some scum.
This was his first post. After this I assumed he'd come with walls of text quoting everybody, asking everybody questions and trying to actively find scum. What he actually did was disappear, then come out of nowhere to park a barely-justified vote on Drazerk and disappear again.
The contrast between his initial "eagerness" to catch scum and his actual behaviour is very scummy. Again, also considering the fact that he doesn't seem to care about his read on Drazerk since he immediately disappeared later instead of trying to reason his read with others or with Drazerk himself.
Players that vote just for the sake of voting (and not for the sake of trying to figure out someone else's alignment) are either ultra bored/busy townies or scum. I see no indication of JingleHell being bored because of his 1st post, nor any indication of him being busy (again, because of his 1st post as well and the lack of explanation from him), so I'm going with the 3rd option here:
##Vote: JingleHell
P.S: I can't be arsed to check austin/Mementos/s&b/hiro and all those people right now.
Ok, let's get this out of the way first. He accuses me of not doing shit, when he hadn't done shit at this point, and of a bad vote. The reasoning for my vote was pretty much covered after that. Of course, he still remembers my suspicion of him as being purely an OMGUS. (Hey, I've got the perfect scum plan now, accuse everybody in post number 1, then just scream OMGUS any time someone says anything against you...)
Of course, he tried to head off any response by admitting he was calling me scummy for behavior similar to his own...
I didn't see any of them invested in discussions, specially not in discussions concerning Keirathi and Drazerk. They just came, parked their vote on the "easy" target ("easy" in relative terms) and left. I see no town motivation at all in parking your vote and disappearing before discussing your reasoning with other people and waiting to see what others have to say.
That's basically my point for being suspicious of you, along with this:
The contrast between his initial "eagerness" to catch scum and his actual behaviour is very scummy. Again, also considering the fact that he doesn't seem to care about his read on Drazerk since he immediately disappeared later instead of trying to reason his read with others or with Drazerk himself.
Is that behaviour similar to my own? I don't think so.
Leave the "OMGUS" thing out of this since you weren't accusing me back then. Those are 2 completely unrelated things.
Also, I hope nobody will have the nerve of calling me hypocrite and vote me because of "me doing the same thing JingleHell is doing" or some shit like that.
I'm going to study for my test, but I'll be around, so I'll answer any questions you guys have and try to be here and not just disappear.
Here, he begins smearing me, suggesting the only options are "bad" and "scum".
Wut? I only anticipated that someone else may just come and say "oh lol look gonzaw is acting like Jingle!" and start a wagon on me when I wasn't actually acting like you (i.e I wouldn't vote you and disappear but would actually be there, answer questions and stuff).
That is literally written there in the post, why did you misinterpret it like me suggesting you are either only "bad" or "scum"? (of course at that point I was more suggesting you were scum...since you know...I was voting you, was suspicious of you and that shit).
JIngle, I get the feeling you are voting Drazerk and accusing him just so you can justify doing something in this game. I don't get the feeling you are trying to figure out his alignment and convince yourself he is scum, nor I get the feeling you want to convince us he is scum so we can lynch him.
I just see you lurk, then come out of lurking to park your vote using a half-assed justification for it and then going back to lurking.
Like I said, I can only see bored/trollish/busy townies doing that (although even busy townies would try to do something else to push their read), and I don't see you being any of them. You are too serious and "eager to catch scum" to be a bored or trollish townie (for instance I could see Nisani being a bored townie, at least at this point in the game), and again there's no indication you are busy (and again even if you were I doubt you'd act like you did). So where does that leave you? As scum unfortunately, unless someone can figure out some town motivation for Jingle's behaviour.
Absolutes like that are completely stupid.
Not if they work. Also completely unrelated to me being scum (maybe you can argue if I'm wrong or not, but that's for another discussion).
On October 01 2012 05:59 gonzaw wrote: At Keirathi: 1)Are you going to start scumhunting soon?
When I feel like there's enough for me to make an actual case that I believe in. Until them, I'm content to ask questions and discuss the current goings-on in the thread to build my reads.
Okay, answer me this then:
1)How do you stand in respect to Drazerk? Do you agree with Nisani/Jingle/etc about his scummy behaviour or do you think he's town or are you not sure? 2)Same about JingleHell. Do you agree with what I said about him or not? Or do you think it's not enough to judge his alignment, and if so why? 3)Do you think ghost acting like an idiot and wanting to lynch you for mind-boggling reasons makes him scum, reckless townie trying to play the "aggressive hero" role, or is not enough to judge his alignment?
I'm more interested in your thought process at the moment rather than what you actually think (I want to know if you are legitimately trying to build your reads or you are scum trying to skate by without doing anything)
Of course, Gonzaw does the same shit he's picking on Keirathi for. Oh, and here's another accusation. Keirathi, might as well not make a case, he'll just write it off as OMGUS and call you bad town.
And I don't think your point on JingleHell is very good. I can see someone who isn't very familiar with Drazerk jumping on that.
What about my other points? That Jingle comes out to post just to "appear he's contributing" and "justify himself" and seems less interested about his actual read and convincing people of it? Hmm, I'll wait on the contributions of other people before doing anything else.
I'd really like Mementos to tell us if his austin thing is getting anywhere and if he has anything else to say.
This one actually seems to directly contradict itself, accusing me of appearance of contribution, not worried about convincing people of my read... oh but he wants the contributions of others.
You didn't ask for contributions of others and you were "convinced" Drazerk was scum. There's no contradiction there.
On October 01 2012 07:14 gonzaw wrote: Try not to be such an asshole Jingle, it's just freaking D1.
I'm having mixed feelings about you. I don't know if this aggressive "I don't care" behaviour of yours is a ruse or if it's legit, but it's confusing me a little bit (i.e I don't know if you'd react like that as scum).
I'm not asking people to bandwagon you, and asking for opinions and stances. If it makes you feel any better though:
##Unvote: JingleHell
Jingle, what do you think of Mementos' 1st post about Keriathi and austin and his behaviour this game?
I wouldn't mind shifting discussion towards Mementos, ghost, S&B and maybe Nisani. Hell S&B did absolutely nothing so far, maybe Drazerk is onto something.
P.S: Also Jingle, are you seriously saying you won't accuse anybody so they don't accuse you of OMGUSing back? Are you willing to accuse any of those people you mentioned just out of spite or because you seriously think they could be scum?
Don't start acting like the world is against you when you only have 2 votes and it's 24 hours into D1.
Remember this one, since his favorite defense is that I'm OMGUSing him. Oh, and more of that talking shit and smearing.
?? What does that post have anything to do with "Jingle is OMGUSing me"? You didn't start accusing me until after I voted iamperfection I think.
If you want to get to the "OMGUSing" part: you accuse me because you were "paranoid" about me once I voted you, and then you failed to coherently explain why I was scum and started accusing me. Yes, I assumed this was OMGUS in part. Again, how does me thinking you were OMGUSing me makes me scum? Nevermind don't answer here I'll get to that later.
On October 01 2012 08:47 gonzaw wrote: Mementos, any thoughts on JingleHell and others? (like ghost for instance)?
There's a severe lack of information going on.
I'm also severely worried/disappointed in s&b. Does he act like this when he is scum? (i.e never post anything)
Yet another post of Gonzaw wanting other people's opinions to jump on board with. It's a recurring theme.
There's a difference between "wanting information" and "wanting other people's opinions". Either way I don't see anything wrong with either of them. Townies giving other townies their opinions is what makes town lynch scum in the end right?
On October 01 2012 10:44 gonzaw wrote: So....hello, anybody?
austin, why aren't you making those fluffy walls of text you make when you are town? Why does it seem nobody cares?
Damn, what a boring game :/ If this keeps up like this I'll most likely vote S&B, or ghost (if he wasn't intentionally trolling), or Jingle (if I make up my mind about him) or Mementos/Nisani/austin/iamperfection (I have "weird" feelings about all of them but there so little to go on that I can't know for sure).
Just in case I miss it I'll make a placeholder vote on iamperfection:
##Vote: iamperfection
I don't have a strong read on him at all, but after rereading it's the strongest one I have. None of his posts seemed to contribute at all, and even his ghost vote seemed "easy" to latch on. He doesn't have anything else to go on, so it's a safe bet I think.
Soft bus, possibly? He did unvote so he could move his "placeholder" vote once perfection had votes... if it's really a placeholder on either person why would you move it when one of them gets momentum? Awkward.
Okay, I just looked back and the only "momentum" iamperfection had was 1 post Mementos did. Nobody ever mentioned iamperfection at all before I left (check it here and in the next page). Hell other than that vote from Mementos there was no momentum on iamperfection
I did notice that, there was no momentum on iamperfection and I had to leave to uni in 10 minutes so I had to decide what to do: vote the guy that could be scum but has no momentum? Or vote the guy that could also be scum but may gain more momentum (you)? Since Mattchew voted you I guessed the lynch would consolidate better against you than on iamperfection. But to be honest, like I said it was a placeholder so I wasn't sure who I wanted lynched, I just voted you in the spur of the moment for those reasons above.
On October 01 2012 23:44 gonzaw wrote: Yeah but ghost is not Palmar.
We all know how scum Palmar works, and that's a thing a scum Palmar would do. Is it a thing scum ghost would do? (well, to be honest I don't remember him in any games where he was scum though)
Hmm, okay people, what do you guys think about lynching one of these guys: JingleHell Mementos Nisani CrossFire austin iamperfection
And if you'd switch to one of them, why would you do it?
Like I said before I have that same "weird" feeling about them, but again it seems none of them other than Mementos decided to show up to contribute at all. It wouldn't bother me too much since it's D1, but we are getting too close to the lynch deadline and we have to choose a lynch.
We have like 0 information on the table, so it's VERY likely this lynch will be a misslynch, specially if there's some incognito scum in the group of Mementos/Hiro/Keirathi/(me lol)/etc that are driving discussion.
But fuck what else can we do, right?
I'm leaving in like 20 minutes and wondering if I should put my placeholder (or basically lynch vote) onto someone else. I'm gonna eat now....so convince me people
Another list of half the thread as possible scum...
0 consolidation on the lynch, with some random guys voting Drazerk, and I was leaving in 20 minutes. I'm sure you can see why I was panicking right?
I don't really buy that "the world is against me" attitude and I haven't seen any contribution from him other than his scummy read on Drazerk (maybe his unvote is not that scummy, but it's the only thing I can go on).
Take into account that's a rash vote/placeholder, but oh well.
So long people!
Here's that change from one placeholder (who flipped scum) to another one. Me. A guy who thinks he's scum.
lol no, you only were "paranoid" about me by that point, and you even posted that post after I started working on mine:
On October 02 2012 08:45 gonzaw wrote: Town...you impress me
Jingle is town, but he's bad. Bolded bad. Chill out, don't OMGUS, pay attention and don't get all cocky and arrogant and spam the thread with those defenses of yours. The way you argued and interacted with people and the way you kept "shitting things up" even though it was obvious you should have stopped doing that as scum makes me think there's a chance you can be town, so take that chance and try to play better.
ghost and Nisani are likely scum I think, Mementos and Crossfire are there too.
ghost/Nisani/Mementos/Crossfire/Drazerk I think all remaining scum are in there
Talking shit, fairly random change of opinion about Draz, who he formerly thought wasn't scum, who really wasn't doing much that could be more than a null tell, yet again accusing half the thread. (Oops, like I said, if we suspect him, must be an OMGUS!)
Ever since this post of yours, you've been calling me almost "confirmed scum" even though the last thing you said about me was "getting paranoid".
Out of nowhere you suddenly have strong scumreads on me and Matt, even though you barely talked about us. Again, you just mentioned the "I'm paranoid about him because of X, Y and Z", and then you started saying things like "yeah gonzaw makes a 'placeholder' vote and will be back after the deadline that's so fabricated"
I just went from "guy you were paranoid about" to "confirmed scum" even when I didn't do anything at all and you didn't even "find" scummy things or made a case.
How the hell am I supposed to interpret that?
Also, I forgot:
I'm sure someone will scream OMGUS at me saying that
Chill out, don't OMGUS, pay attention and don't get all cocky and arrogant and spam the thread with those defenses of yours.
It's not "lol Jingle is OMGUSing me that stupid bitch". It's advice. Advice that apparently means I was "starting a fight" with you that I still don't get at this point in time.
Why did I make that advice? Well see above (you considering me almost confirmed scum "out of nowhere" and getting all pissy about it).
@S&B: Dude, start posting NOW or I'll do everything in my power to kill you. If I can ever be justified in tunneling the hell out of you in any game we play together it's in this one. You only have 7 freaking posts, 4 of them having less than 3 lines.
Hmmm. He spent the entire next day on Nisani, IIRC?
People change their minds. I said I was going to look into Nisani/Drazerk/S&B/Mementos on D2 and that's what I did. After I re-checked their filters I figured Nisani was more likely scum than S&B, even though S&B didn't do shit at all (I started to realize that maybe S&B was being too obvious as scum and was legitimately busy, which made me doubt my scumread on him later on D2)
Well, let's just first assume it was a scum kill. Seems that scum were scared they couldn't actively push Mementos because of his "town cred" of voting iamperfection first and sticking with his vote.
I'm currently reading filters, but I'll answer some questions (I won't answer Jingle's 2nd case since I don't think there's anything to respond to):
from austin: Can you be a little more thorough when you're talking about momentum here? What made you think that there was less momentum on iamperfection, who had just garnered 2 votes from you and mementoss, than on JH, who had an 18-hour old vote from Mattchew (and who you'd already UNVOTED after Mattchew had voted. You were on him before Mattchew's vote, then hopped off of him ATER Mattchew's vote, then back on because of the momentum of Mattchew's old vote?).
I remember you doing a lot of speculating in Can't Believe, and it looked bad. I remember finding you absolutely scummy when obsing that Magic game because of your speculating. So I know the speculation and fishing might be townie, even though you're poking around some scummy areas. But the momentum explanation for the vote doesn't really explain why you'd UNVOTE JH after Mattchew's vote, then re-vote later because of "momentum" and being more certain town would consolidate on JH. Nobody was joining Mattchew, and mementoss had just joined you on iamperfection.
Yes, Mementos voted iamp, but that's only 1 other vote from a guy that never showed up at discussions and had very little thread presence.
If one guy shows up, casts his vote on 1 other guy and then leaves, barely showing up later to drive the wagon against that guy or be part of discussion...do you think that's momentum? (also, I don't consider my own vote as "momentum" since I can change it anytime I want). It's not. I voted iamp based on a hunch about "who of these null guys is the most scummy?". Only Mementos showed up with his vote and after that didn't do anything about iamperfection (he just asked me 1 question).
That's the opposite of momentum, hell I'd consider that a lack of interest in his lynch. Remember 8 frigging hours passed between me voting iamperfection and me unvoting him...and nothing happened in between, there was no momentum, nothing, only iamperfection accusing ghost a little bit more and me explaining him why voting ghost is easy and why his vote on ghost was easy.
I may not have given the best explanation about thinking Jingle would have the "most momentum", but Mattchew had voted him and found him scummy, and I think other people posted suspicions on him. You know how Mattchew acted before, he was pretty active and contributing and shit. He wouldn't act like Mementos and cast 1 vote and disappear from the face of the earth, if he wanted to lynch someone he'd get that lynch done.
Again, having lots of weak reads, with the one I had a "hunch" on not going anywhere, in the very little time I had left I rethought my stance on Jingle, thought about this whole "It's more likely Jingle can get lynched because of Mattchew/momentum/shit", got paranoid about Jingle acting all "oh if I do anything at all people will say I was OMGUSing therefore I won't do anything" and whiny and in the spur of the moment I voted him.
I don't think I even thought about voting Jingle when I was writing that 1st part of the post. When I decided to vote him I wrote that "fuck it" line and went to uni.
I don't know why speculating is bad lol. Like...townies have almost 0 information (unless they are blue). Yes, I know townies should "speculate" on their own and then basically post when everything fits in their heads...but well that rarely happens in my case. I rarely have a "very convincing idea" in my head when reading the game that I can just make into 1 post and then leave and be done with it. I need the discussion, I need people posting to see their behaviour and attitude and mannerisms when they do, and also at times some opinions on the guys I'm suspicious of to see how the rest of town thinks of them (to make up my mind). I don't think I was ever able to fake that as scum...like ever.
This is the only aspect where people don't use meta on me to find me townie :/ About (2) (the role/blue/etc fishing):
Yes I was fishing. I want to know the crazy shit that's going on in this game to understand it better. Also maybe you guys don't know but I also have abilities and stuff (not a big deal, I assume every townie has at least 1 ability) and I have to make sense of all that's happening to use them properly or know when/how to use them. I didn't want people to just go claiming and shit, but rather know basic stuff like who was JKed, who was RBed, if something weird happened (like someone getting "visited by a demon" or some shit), etc. If you remember, the night ended with just 1 kill and no claims of actions whatsoever. Considering this is a heavily themed game that was weird as fuck (I would have expected at least 1 scum having the power to incinerate someone or stripping someone from his votes or something like that).
On October 06 2012 03:41 JingleHell wrote: And you're right, it may entirely be too wide of a net. I actually left a lot of shit out to try and avoid diluting excessively, but I figure given that I could easily be accused of confirmation bias (which, might I add, doesn't mean I'm automatically and categorically WRONG in finding Gonzaw scummy) it's better to provide a LOT of backing, rather than looking like I'm overly cherrypicking one or two posts.
Usually, providing a LOT of raw data increases the chances of some of that data not going the direction you want. Thus, it's more fair-minded, and demonstrates that I'm not just basing my assumptions off of one or two things that, on their own, would be tiny.
Just because a lot of the individual shreds of it are small, doesn't mean they don't add up to a lot.
Generally if you try to analyze every single detail about someone else's play you'll encounter that problem. You'll get a lot of "raw data" that you can't just handle and may use confirmation bias, or may get confused, or may try to dwell into WIFOM and fuck up with your head (there are times where this happens to me a lot).
Anyways, I guess I'm kind of angry at you because I know my own intentions that I had in my posts and I know you are heavily misinterpreting them. Huh, I guess that's the problem with playing in text-form.
This was one of those non-defenses... implying active people can't be scum, and people who just post huge lists probably are. I know it's been a few posts since Part 1, but hopefully we all remember plenty of examples of Gonzaw just posting huge lists?
Not alignment-indicative
Speaks for itself, but even I have to admit that this sort of evidence is barely damning in and of itself.
Not alignment-indicative, even you admit it is not.
Semi-randomly suggesting which of his earlier town reads he'd throw out. Since he's suddenly running out of people he thought were scummy. Maybe he tried to hard to look town by calling people town?
Confirmation bias
Remember how hard he was trying to force me making a case? You'd think he'd have more responses than "That doesn't make sense" and "You're just too shit to get it, and that's advice, not an insult" and "OMGUS". Ok, so we're pretty caught up now.
Irrelevant, not alignment-indicative
I don't see anything I did wrong. In fact I should be actually calling you out since I made a perfectly reasonable defense and you straight up ignored it to post a bunch of unrelated stuff and label it a "case" (I won't since that's not really alignment-indicative of you, at least in the context of this game).
I see you are still convinced I'm scum and won't change your mind no matter anything I do. Let me give you another piece advice: Step back, read filters, preferably read the thread as well and try to analyze the flow of the thread in this game and how I participated in it, with what motivation I did and what I achieved doing so
If you still think I'm scum then, well I'll be disappointed but at least I'll be somewhat relieved that you at least tried and are most likely town (if you are scum you wouldn't put that effort at all) and that you at least are trying to win this game for town (whether you are wrong about me or not).
I've seen you fish as town. I speculate as town. But it's troubling when you're only doing it over protective roles, and especially troubling when one reason you were fishing is to try and get scum to shoot someone who claimed a protective role so that we wouldn't have him as a suspect.
Well, I don't know any other mechanics to specify information on. There may be a "town bus driver who roleblocks those he visits and sends them to purgatory where they play cards and each gain 1-shot bullet to use at day" but I can't go asking "did someone receive a 1-shot bullet after being RBed by a town bus driver?" (yeah kind of over-exaggerating here but you get the point). I can basically just ask if someone was JK'd (the JK just flipped), RBed or if something strange happened.
Like, Drazerk's claim. Believe, not believe? If not believe, scummy or Drazerk-y?
Having finished reading the filters. Unless you want the "short but possibly unfounded" answer.
As to the momentum, yeah. 8 hours and no real push on iamperfection. But 15 hours and no real push on JH since Mattchew's vote. The biggest move on JH between Mattchew's vote and then your final vote was ... you unvoting him shortly after Mattchew's vote.
Again, Mattchew>Mementos in terms of town presence And again, I made the choice in less than 10 minutes, I couldn't analyze everything.
If you want I can just answer "I flipped a coin" and be done with it, since at some level it was basically that; I'm just rationalizing why I made one decision and not the other.
Jingle, those are not points I'm "dismissing". Those are points I want you to address again since I didn't understand them... ....damn communication is sure failing hard in this game.
I had to be a little bit "agressive" in parts because that's how defending against cases works (in trying to convince you how bad your point is for instance). Everybody does it, in every single game, every time, whether town or scum or 3rd party.
You can't get butthurt over that @Keirathi: I was getting that feel after reading some filters and reasserting town reads I had (haven't finished yet), but I want to ask you one question:
S&B got shot, Drazerk claimed the shot as 1-shot vigilante, and nobody else did. We can assume then that no other townie shot S&B, and it was Drazerk either way, right?
If Drazerk didn't shoot him, then he's lying, therefore he's scum, but scum shot him and that includes Drazerk; therefore Drazerk shot him.
My question is: did Drazerk shoot S&B or Hiro? (S&B claimed he protected Hiro). Unless Drazerk is 3rd party SK I don't see why he'd kill S&B as scum. I mean, scum would waste 2 KP on Mementos and S&B? I don't think I buy that.
So basically: is Drazerk 3rd party who killed S&B so S&B didn't get on his ass (or maybe even shot Hiro as SK); or is Drazerk scum and shot Hiro? (or of course another explanation if you have one)
(let this be an answer to austin in the meatime as well...the "short unfounded one")
Where the hell are ghost, Mattchew, Crossfire, ghost and Hiro? None of them posted at all since D2 ended (except Mattchew for that unrelated post he made).
..
Wait I've read the N2 thread and noticed they posted:
On October 05 2012 05:28 Drazerk wrote: To keep myself alive longer which is pro town as you say so yourself.
Why are you concerned about this? You're always the person who says that town should get rid of you at some point.
On October 06 2012 00:24 ghost_403 wrote: Can anyone who actually read page 39 tell me if it's worth my time to actually read page 39? Seriously, an entire page of Gonzaw and JH bickering?
...are you guys planning on making those your only posts from N2? Sure, most likely we are 8-2 and have like 2 more days before arriving at LYLO...but seriously.
On October 06 2012 04:45 JingleHell wrote: If you don't understand the points, I can't help you in the slightest
Yeah, it's possible. However, if there was 1 KP that got to S&B. someone must have shot it. If the guy that shot it was town, he'd have claimed, therefore it's either scum or SK KP (basically anti-town KP). Drazerk claimed that KP and nobody cc'ed, so it at least proves Drazerk shot him (whether as town, scum or SK).
You may be right about the targets though, maybe a town bus driver bussed S&B with a pro-town townie and scum/SK Drazerk shot S&B instead of his intended target.
Yeah, we might leave that out until we have more claims or knowledge of night actions. However, if no town night action interfered with the kill, I think it's highly likely that if Drazerk is scum his shot was on the target he intended. It could be the same for 3rd party Drazerk, but maybe scum bussed S&B with someone and Drazerk didn't know.
On October 06 2012 05:07 Mattchew wrote: I hate when people play the woe is me I think imma stop playing mafia defense as town or scum... It's terrible and makes me feel bad
On October 06 2012 05:10 gonzaw wrote: Yeah, it's possible. However, if there was 1 KP that got to S&B. someone must have shot it. If the guy that shot it was town, he'd have claimed, therefore it's either scum or SK KP (basically anti-town KP). Drazerk claimed that KP and nobody cc'ed, so it at least proves Drazerk shot him (whether as town, scum or SK).
You may be right about the targets though, maybe a town bus driver bussed S&B with a pro-town townie and scum/SK Drazerk shot S&B instead of his intended target.
Yeah, we might leave that out until we have more claims or knowledge of night actions. However, if no town night action interfered with the kill, I think it's highly likely that if Drazerk is scum his shot was on the target he intended. It could be the same for 3rd party Drazerk, but maybe scum bussed S&B with someone and Drazerk didn't know.
This response is so wrong there's no justification for it from a town point of view.
Let's take a moment to examine what was said here:
Any unclaimed shot must be anti-town
Unquestioning belief that Draz is telling the truth
More blue fishing
Stuff that was just plain wrong
There are reasons why unclaimed shots might have been from someone in the town. For example, Lord Kanti's KP from Aperture Mafia. Based on the flips that have already occured this game, I don't think that it's irrational to assume that a role with KP doesn't have some other stuff associated with it. The fact that Draz didn't immediately claim his shot doesn't imply that he's scum.
That second part about the busdriver is (a) wrong and (b) blue fishing. In the event of a busdriver, 98% of the time, the person performing the action isn't notified of a bussing. Therefore, Draz would not know that he had bussed, and wouldn't have known to claim that he shot S+B. And why on earth are you implying that there's a town busdriver to begin with? Why do you keep fishing for blues?
As town, you should know better than to spout off stuff like this. You would have taken a step back and realized that this post doesn't accomplish anything other than create more chaos while people discuss why you are completely wrong. Town gonzaw is better than this.
...is this post serious? Do I really have to point out all the stuff you misinterpreted or got wrong?
Who is talking about being misinterpreted? What "scummy behaviour"? I'm not "misinterpreting" ghost, he's misinterpreting me (quite badly).
Seriously Jingle I just don't get some of your posts or why you even bother posting them. Are you seriously just sitting on your chair, gluing your face to the monitor waiting for me to make any post at all to completely dissect and post how it's scummy?
Meh sorry, too tired to write something. My reads aren't quite coherent though, so I don't think it would make a difference if I died and didn't post them.
On October 06 2012 07:24 HiroPro wrote: I'm leaning scum on gonzaw. the rolefishing stuff that people are talking about though is not very good - town gonzaw is fully capable of doing that also. gonzaw said earlier that if jinglehell doesn't present a good case on him (not like the stuff jinglehell was posting earlier about gonzaw, then jingle is scum. but now that jinglehell has made a case (which largely reads as if it is just everything that jinglehell had previously said about gonzaw in one cleaner post), and gonzaw has treated the case as if it was horrendous, gonzaw has done nothing to say that jinglehell is scum. instead he's continued to treat jinglehell as some kind of misguided townie. that's really the one thing that's making me think he's scum. in terms of his other behavior, i'm just not sure, i can see him doing them as either scum or town ( I took a look back through bureaucracy and his thoughts then too seemed genuine to me).
I wanted him to make a case at all and commit. Yes the case may be "bad"....but meh how the hell am I supposed to react to Jingle? I get gut feelings he's town but he seems to purposefully try to antagonize me and dismiss everything I do every time i post something or respond to him.
It's one of those times where you think "there's no way a townie would go at me like that and play like that", but then you think there are countless instances of townies doing that and you back down because, hell he might be one of those.
Hiro, I take it you were away or something until right now? You said you were going to be inactive until friday.
Crossfire and Mattchew are town, but that seems obvious (still had quite a time trying to figure out if they were fooling me or not). Specially because of their NL shenanigans on D2. If S&B is town that NL business makes no fucking sense as scum (why try to force a NL if you can lynch the medic by doing nothing, and you can also lynch another medic/vet by switching your vote?)
Shit lol should have done this earlier I don't have time now.
Hiro, ehmm...damn, he seems too desinterested to be scum and doesn't seem to push any scum agenda at all. It's also possible scum shot him last night and S&B took the hit. I don't quite like him being so disconnected and just going around asking questions and not being part of anything, but I struggle to make a solid stance on him
ghost I think may be most likely scum. I said on D1 that maybe he acted like that to "appear like the aggressive hero townie", but he made no effort whatsoever to mantain that or even try to do something. That post he made against me is very bad, and he immediately disappeared and did nothing else.
austin I'm less sure of him, I can't make a solid stance. My gut says townie though, but my brain says that I should be wary of him.
Yeah, I'm back to "don't really know, but it can't hurt to kill him" about Drazerk. I can really see him play like this as either 3rd party or town (maybe even scum).
On October 06 2012 08:02 Drazerk wrote: haha now we have to lynch pbody / atlas
Well.....damn.
Hmm, brainstorming time:
-ALTAS/P-Body are from Aperture, not Black Mesa. At worst they are red scum...but did red scum really know there was another faction? If not, they would have thought there was only town, so why take that risk? -Couldn't we let the other scum team kill them if they are really scum? -Again, being "medics" thingy doesn't seem like a scum role; although I'm waiting on confirmations from hits and shit.
Hmm, interesting thought I had about S&B and Keirathi still being town:
Let's assume they are both scum, then:
1)Both of them belong to a scum team: This means there are most likely 3 members from each team (it has to be balanced in terms of numbers on both teams, since they have to outnumber everybody else). This leaves only 7 townies in total, and 7 townies vs 6 scum seems kind of imbalanced in respect to town. It also means they decided to basically out their whole remaining team on D2 for no reason at all (remember Nisani was getting more votes and was set to get lynched, not S&B); and the other scum faction would know who they are as well and they are completely defenseless, specially once the other scum faction shoot one of them (since they would be "confirmed town" for a while) at some point. If they knew the black scum team existed or not, it doesn't make much sense
2)One of them is from 1 scumteam and the other one is from the other one: First of all, it means S&B is scum. If S&B is scum, and knows there is a PBody out there, why would he assume it's town? His own role would be scum wouldn't it? So that alone doesn't make much sense for him to claim at all (could just fakeclaim something else, or not claim at all, like I said he wasn't in a position where he needed to claim or could fake-claim as scum really). This also means that once S&B claimed, scum Keirathi (from the other team) decided to out himself instead of just keeping shut and let town lynch S&B once no P-Body claimed (from Keirathi's POV S&B is either town or 3rd party or another scum faction, therefore killing S&B helps his agenda).
3)Once of them is from 1 scumteam and the other one is town: Again. If S&B is scum, same reasoning (why would he claim?). If he claimed I could see town Keirathi claiming though. If Keirathi is scum....again why claim? Let S&B get lynched.
Arguments against any of them being Black Scum is that ATLAS and P-Body belong to Aperture Science and are Test Subjects; it makes no sense flavour-wise for them to win with Black Mesa (unless they are Brain-washed or something in the flavour?). Because they are both from Aperture it also makes sense that they are either both town or both scum (again unless one of them has a "was brainwashed" flavour or something). This is flavour related only, so take it with a grain of salt.
So, considering everything, from what I said above, to the flavour, to their roles (they are medics/vets, confirmed by the fact that S&B received a shot that was also confirmed by Drazerk, and all 4 of them can't be in the same scumteam faking that), to their play this game (Keirathi played pretty townie I think, and S&B seemed to contribute more and put more effort into the game after D2), it makes me think they are both town.
Any objections? The other option is that they could be 3rd party outside the known factions (town, red scum, black scum) and win like survivors or something....but if that's the case, then we'd have like 5 townies total in a game of 13 players and that makes no sense at all.
Hmm, I'm going to wait to see what Hiro/ghost/austin have to say first.
Also, can someone tell me in which team do they think Drazerk is scum from? That can help clear a lot of confusions and/or make us figure out new stuff and shit. I'll look into myself later.
On October 06 2012 08:19 Mattchew wrote: ##vote drazerk
honestly he has done nothing pro-town and imo has played like a jerk.
I think we are in a 8 vs. 1 vs. 1 situation.
Also, I want someone to point out why I am clearly town now, the reason is out there and I want to see who can find it
You and Crossfire initiated some interactions as soon as the game started, and he sheeped you with the iamperfection vote even though if you were both black you would have thought iamp was town (and one "noob" scum sheeping another scum on D1 would be risky as hell and would most likely not happen?) and defended you always as "super townie"?
If it's that...hmm, I'm not sure, seems possible but I didn't think much about it. Damn there's a lot to think.
Hmm, also something interesting to note is: -Both scum teams may have not known there was another scum team initially -Black Scum knew there was another scum team as soon as D1 ended.
On October 06 2012 08:50 gonzaw wrote: Drazerk, I made a post "proving" S&B and Keirathi are not scum (of course not 100% proof, but I think it's valid). Do you still want to kill them?
On October 06 2012 09:27 austinmcc wrote: So two factions. Still only a single night KP. Either we had protects or...we're probably at 2 red unknown black and one team might have no KP?
I think I'm going to focus on other game for tonight, come back tomorrow morning with full thoughts on this. It means we need to re-evaluate the iamperfection lynch, look for connections to crossfire, blah blah blah.
I think killing drazerk is the right move today. A "one-shot vig" seems REALLY unlikely in this game, but if there's KP missing then there ARE unaccounted for night shots. Which someone might claim in case he was spotted...who could that be?
##Vote: Drazerk
Why are you already voting to kill Drazerk if you haven't "thought fully of this"?
Same with you Hiro, do you have any thoughts about the whole 2-scum teams at all before parking your vote on Drazerk? We just realized there are 2 factions (we townies), we can't just instantly accept a Drazerk lynch without thinking about this first.
It's possible Drazerk is town, just as it's possible he's from 1 scum faction and the scum from the other one are jumping on his lynch without consequences; and both of those suck (the latter not so much of course, but it will waste the whole day)
I'm getting weirded out by all of you guys coming out of nowhere and instantly voting Drazerk without even thinking twice even though the game completely changed.
I mean, I didn't see anybody (other than Drazerk of course) even flinch at Keirathi/S&B after X's flip for instance. Did everybody just assume they were town and didn't even try to think about it? Come on guys you are better than this.
If you still want to lynch Drazerk fine vote him but don't just come say "yeah lol Drazerk obvious scum from some faction", park your vote and do nothing else and then disappear without even acknowledging there are 2 factions (or without trying to cope with it or anything). Maybe I just fail at trying to make sense of Drazerk. Him claiming shooting S&B makes little sense as scum to be honest (if he was scum shooting him he could have kept his mouth shut). He's making 0 effort though and that's damning as hell.
Could one of you guys that are absolutely sure Drazerk is red tell me why he'd claim S&B's shot and claim an "improbable" role?
Anyways, Drazerk you should probably claim your full role and role name this time
Hmm, also something interesting to note is: -Both scum teams may have not known there was another scum team initially -Black Scum knew there was another scum team as soon as D1 ended.
This initially read as true and a neat thought. But...has anyone EVER seen a black team with no red team? I haven't, so I'm assuming that black knew red was out there the moment they got their PMs.
Yep this my be true though. Specially since it's "Aperture Mafia" (and the flavour from Day posts and shit).
So BS knew RS ever since the beginning. Can we assume RS didn't know about BS until this day though? I don't remember GlaDOS's role giving any indication that they could spy roles or other alignments or something like that.
Also, Xfire didn't have any "KP" per se, he only had KP if someone targeted him at night and he could use it on the guy above or below him in the list (thank god he didn't use it on me :/ ). If the other black dude has a similar "non-straight-kp" role, all KP may be accounted for if Drazerk is town. If Drazerk is scum...then maybe it was the KP from the 2nd black dude? If he's scum I'm getting trouble to think of him as red if red already have KP.
RS having normal KP plus a vig-shot from Drazerk is too much against the BS who have very limited KP.
What about all other scum that use their KP? If a tracker/watcher got on Xfire's kill they would have gotten a RS, yet that doesn't mean the RS went on claiming he shot Xfire as vig.
...although S&B survived, maybe if he died Drazerk would have kept his mouth shut; but after S&B survived he claimed the shot as a vig. Hmm, could be. Ghost
So....let's talk about ghost. I'm getting a feeling he might be BS. I don't want to waste time on his earlier posts since I have to eat right now, but we all know what he did. He "trolled" on D1 (with that "aggressive mighty town muthafocker" attitude), disappeared all late D1-N1-early D2; vote S&B, disappeared the rest of D2 and N2 and came back one time at N2 to make a horrible post (this, if someone wants I can break it down for you, but if it's not necessary I won't).
He doesn't do shit ever since parking his vote on S&B, and when he comes back he doesn't acknowledge shit that happened. Doesn't acknowledge S&B's claim, doesn't acknowledge Nisani's flip; he straight up quotes 1 post of me and decides it's "the scummiest thing ever" out of nowhere without even addressing me everything else I did or anything anybody did. Of course he completely disappeared after that.
I'm getting the BS feel because of Xfire mostly. Here are the times he mentions ghost:
On October 02 2012 10:13 Crossfire99 wrote: Oh, I also think this makes ghost town because there's no way a scum would attack his own, so early and leave his vote on him all day despite people trying to convince him otherwise.
On October 02 2012 11:08 Crossfire99 wrote: I mean the first person that iamperfection attacks hard and sticks with all day is ghost. I think that is good reason for ghost being town.
On October 04 2012 09:15 Crossfire99 wrote: First things, first. I will say that I still have my same town reads on Mattchew, hiro, and ghost. I explained them in an earlier post but they're basically due to day 1 voting. I still see keirathi as town as well due to activity, boldness, confidence and his posting behavior.
Gonzaw, what's with this whole thing between you and jingle? I'm going to take a closer look at it, but would like to hear your opinion on it.
On October 06 2012 08:00 Crossfire99 wrote: Ok, I'm gonna post my reads that I have right now. I am sticking with my same townie view of Mattchew, hiro, and ghost due to the day 1 votes....
He has his town read on him just because "iamperfection attacked him, and iamp wouldn't bus his scumbuddy so early", and never dwelled on that again. Granted, he mentioned Matt and Hiro too, but at least Matt and Hiro were seen as townies by most people and had "nailed" iampe by voting him. Ghost didn't vote iamp.
I know it's not that damning, the thing I'm thinking is that....why defend ghost like that at all? We established BS knew there was a RS at least since IAMP flipped (and maybe even since D1). Nobody else defended ghost like that, so it seemed weird Xfire would defend ghost like that if ghost wasn't his partner.
I'm getting the feeling again because he justifies his read on him only once, and never puts any attention on him again, other than "my town read on him is still the same" but even then he groups him with a group of other people (Matt Hiro) so ghost goes unnoticed if anybody reads Xfire's post.
Thoughts people?
Also, even if we 100% determine ghost is BS....do we lynch him? Scum KP seems to be more dangerous than whatever BS have (melee conditional KP and that shit), so maybe it can be better to try and lynch a RS and maybe let RS deal with ghost (although I doubt they will, like in Liar Game).
RS having normal KP plus a vig-shot from Drazerk is too much against the BS who have very limited KP.
Where was last night's shot then? If that's the case there's an unaccounted KP from a save/something someone didn't claim (why wouldn't they?)
If that's the case too, then BS can turn things around and have like double KP (remember Xfire's role), and that (again) seems kind of unbalanced against town (since BS most likely will shoot town).
I get the feeling BS don't have KP and normal scum do; but BS have conditional KP and all that complex weird shit. Kind of like the demons and angels from Purgatory Mafia. Scum (angels) have KP while BS (demons) have other stuff to take down players
Walk me through your thoughts - at what specific points did your read on JingleHell shift between bad townie and sccum.
Didn't I post that in my 1st post from N1?
If you mean last night...at no points. I was in doubt of his alignment ever since Nisani flipped with a gut feeling of town. After he spent all page 39 screaming at me, I had more doubts and thought "He could be scum and never even try to make a case against me and just skate by with this "oh gonzaw obvs scum" thing forever" so I tried to see if he'd make a case against me or something. Meh, after that I got the same town gut read.
After this reveal I'm not so sure, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, at least to see how he reacts to this new info.
@austin: Would you believe me if I tell you "it's possible"? Of course all roles are embellished with fancy names, descriptions and shit, but some roles can be summed up in brief descriptions. Nisani was medic/watcher for instance, that's simple enough. One-shot vig may be the simple explanation for his role.
I don't know, if Drazerk won't claim his full role and role name and shit I can't know.....which makes me mad to be honest.
Might be missing some factional KP that was protected.
If it was a shot on a townie the townie would have claimed by now. Hell if it was a shot on a scum he would have claimed by now anyways (to gain the town cred of "getting shot by scum"). If you as scum shoot someone else who doesn't claim he got shot you know he's scum, so scum wouldn't do that either.
Unless Jingle or ghost now claim they were shot (although I find it kind of unlikely) then it seems very unlikely there is a 2nd set of KP.
Again, it has to do with balance issues. Imagine we started the game at 9-2-2. Imagine there's a mislynch D1 and 2 scum shots go through on townies, it's 6-2-2 on D2. Another misslynch from town and town basically loses (or have to hope the 2 scum teams fight each other).
1 KP from a team and conditional KP from the other seems more likely. Again, take into account Xfire had an additional KP as well. That means there could be 3 town deaths by scum 1 single cycle in a game with 9 townies. Okay, I'll stop speculating that much and assuming too much. I just don't want to assume the contrary either (that there may be 2 KP per night minimum to both scum) and take decisions based on that (i.e lynch Drazerk because maybe BS have 1 minimum KP per night as well). Hmm, I remember there being a game with 2 factions that had 1 KP each, it was a PYP or PTP or something. Does someone know how many factions/number of players were there? Hmm, although again, just like in D2 if I start thinking if Drazerk is town I have to change my other reads to reflect that. It's possible Hiro is scum along with ghost..but meh Hiro being red seems unlikely.
What the fuck maybe you guys are right. I won't vote until ghost arrives or we keep discussing this, but until Drazerk claims his full role and name and all actions (if he hid ones) I might as well support his lynch It's just that a scum Drazerk makes other things seem weird (like a RS scum having more KP on top of their 1 normal KP.)
On October 06 2012 10:49 HiroPro wrote: That's not what I'm saying. gonzaw indicated that unless you made a "good case" on him, he was going to consider you scum.
On October 05 2012 13:49 gonzaw wrote: Please make points about me being scum that don't have anything to do with you or "starting fights" with you or "insulting" you or discrediting you or "misinterpreting" you.
I won't ask you again.
You made a case, and gonzaw seemed to consider it horrendous. So I was wondering why that made gonzaw think of you as a bad townie, when judging by his previous thoughts, he was going to call you scum if he didn't like the case.
I'm not that stupid. I knew his case was going to be bad from the get-go (hint: I am town, that makes his case slightly bad from the start). I just wanted to know if he thought I was scum just because of me "being aggressive to him" and "calling him OMGUS" or there was something else to it. Ehmm...granted as scum he could just go back, and choose whatever he wanted to accuse me. Again, as town he could have gone back, and used confirmation bias to point anything he wanted.
He stopped shitting the thread with that though. But again, like I said I don't really know how to react to that, considering it gave me a gut town feeling. @Keirathi: ORRRR.... maybe you guys can just read that post I made that has nothing to do with your role PMs.
3)Once of them is from 1 scumteam and the other one is town: Again. If S&B is scum, same reasoning (why would he claim?). If he claimed I could see town Keirathi claiming though. If Keirathi is scum....again why claim? Let S&B get lynched.
I don't think his claim would have made less sense if he was scum. He felt enough pressure that he claimed. That doesn't change whether you are town or scum. IF S&B was red scum, didn't know there was a black team, and none of his teammates were P-Body, then I think his first assumption would be "Okay, P-Body is town". And with a town P-Body to back up his claim, he gets pressure off of him and some town cred. Then he could kill me at night and have a confirmed green flip that gives 100% merit to his claim.
Again, I don't find that at all likely, but that's what I didn't use your explanation.
Hmm....that's possible. It's also possible he doesn't kill you at night so he can justify surviving on his own (if people cast suspicion on you 2, then he can say "well Keirathi is still alive and they didn't shot him either right?" and shrug off suspicion).
Okay, it's a logic leap. Still, if you were scum and S&B wasn't your team mate you would have not claimed at all and gotten him lynched. I'm sure you can make a pretty fake-claim down the road later just to get a free lynch in S&B
So I take it you don't buy my "there was no momentum on iamperfection so I changed my vote" defense? Why not? Why have you not responded to my defense at all? Yeah, I don't like coming back to that....but shit Jingle, if thinking I'm "obvious scum" stops you from considering anybody else at all and talking about anything else at all there's something wrong.
lol, I didn't actually expect you to make that much sense.
You make some good points. I cba to quote and post all of them, but yes, one of the scummiest thing he's made is not giving a shit about anything. His post on N2 proves that. He was suspicious of: Keirathi, S&B, austin a little bit; but forgets about all of them just to call me out about setup speculation? I never quite got why people post and completely disappear immediately. Are all of them at work hiding under their desk so their boss doesn't find them and can only post once and never again? If you post you always hang around 10 minutes or so to see what people post. At least 2-3 minutes or something to see if there's an immediate response. If you can't be around you explain why in your previous post, it's not that hard guys, you just have to write 10 more words
/off-topic.
I didn't notice that quote ghost made about Xfire....damn that's weird.
If they were normal scum I'd say it's too obvious. It's still possible they counted on BS being hidden most of the game (like they were), specially after both of them were "almost confirmed town" because of interactions with iamperfection. But I think this is kind of stretching it and making leaps of logic. Hopefully that interaction doesn't mean much.
Yeah, whenever I ask someone their thoughts I always get the feeling I'll get a very underwhelming answer from people just so they can get the response over with.
Anyways, this day seems like it will be wasted, kind of like D2. ghost will show up, make 1 post explaining some stuff and disappear again. Drazerk won't do anything at all, and everybody else will just hang around until he gets lynched. Meh.
Multiple faction games so shitty in terms of trying to catch scum (from any faction's point of view really).
Meh you are right, that connection thing between me and Xfire doesn't seem that bad find.
Your day 1 stance was HAS TO BE SCUM. And he did nothing (that I can tell) to change your mind, you just never pushed him.
I explained it above, his interactions felt genuine, specially when he went on to explain why you were town and something else on N1. Meh I fell for it. After Mementos flipped (or maybe before I don't remember), seeing how people basically forced into me that Xfire was mostly townie for "hammering iamp" and stuff they convinced me (again, coupled with his interactions seeming genuine).
Fuck I'm playing sloppily today.
Anyways, as long as I'm not lynched today it doesn't worry me that much though. I'll have D4 to "defend myself" as black scum if it ever comes down to it.
Also I'll save you the trouble of pointing it out later: Yes, if your thesis is correct, it does seem like I'm trying to save the other scum Drazerk from lynch and swinging it to a townie ghost to try and get both scum to cooperate before town kills us both. It's funny how some of these things turn out.
Goldmine of information though. Me vs ghost as BS (although it's still possible it's one from the remaining group of townies, considering my shitty reads), who will people choose? Why?
I'm interested in people's opinion on this. At least the day won't be a boring bandwagon on Drazerk.
P.S: Just to clarify (again, just in case), I am waiting for ghost to come back and discussions to take place before voting. If the lynch was right now I'd lynch Drazerk anyways. The "weird" stuff that comes with him being scum is just not worth saving his ass from a lynch.
Well, I'm playing badly right now and I'm exhausted, I wouldn't put it past me to post something stupid or something I shouldn't have posted.
1)I wouldn't say it makes me want to lynch ghost, but rather still think he's BS. I'd prefer lynching RS over BS if the factional KP theory is correct. But yes, that interaction is weird, and it may not "make sense from a scumteam perspective". But I'm running out of options here, and no matter who I look at I find something that makes me doubt him being BS. Surely one of those things is wrong.
2)I don't see the resemblance to be honest. I just don't mind having discussion about me going around as long as I don't get lynched for it
On October 07 2012 02:27 Keirathi wrote: Something else I want to mention regarding Crossfire:
Open his filter and ctrl+f Keir. He spent quite a lot of time giving me town reads too. And I never even mentioned him once. Basically my interactions with him are exactly the same as Ghost's, minus me making a comment about him buddying me.
The thing is....you were pretty apparent town. Scum from either faction, 3rd party, etc will always try to "buddy" to the obvious town so they don't generate conflicts (accusing the "most pro-town" player puts lots of focus on them and they need a lot of skills to pull off, and at times it's not worth the effort to try and cast suspicion on a townie).
I can understand Xfire giving town reads on you, Matt, me (that's what I understood, maybe he didn't have that strong townread on me), and hell maybe even Hiro (although less than the others). I don't really understand him giving a town read on ghost, since again, ghost was not "pro-town" at all and his reasoning for defending ghost was pretty bad. It's possible he "defended" ghost, and then as soon as a BS fell (him or his buddy) the remaining one could tunnel ghost as BS for the rest of the game (by saying something like "He was obvious not in the same team as iamp...but what if he's BS!? Of course! He's scum!" or something)
Xfire did go on quite a bit on why you were town, I think in his N1 posts; but his explanation on ghost was minimal.
On October 07 2012 00:50 Keirathi wrote: 3) Do you really think two people going as far as to SAY THEY WERE BUDDYING EACH OTHER makes more sense as a scumteam than two people who just casually mentioned each other throughout the game? No dialog, no real interaction, just an occasional mention.
On October 07 2012 01:42 austinmcc wrote:Look at it the other way around. You say they don't want to buddy each other. What if crossfire just looks like he's buddying ghost, ghost picks up on that, and worries. Say your scumbuddy is actively throwing out odd reads on you, what do you do?
Ghost's actual posts are - (1) I want to understand why crossfire has been defending me (I'm worried about crossfire defending me for no good reason). (2) Upon reread, I don't think he was buddying. Repeat, he wasn't buddying, so we can be buddies.
Does that sit well with you? To me, that looks like Ghost being worried about crossfire's buddying, and then this weird conclusion to draw. Summarily say "Nope, he wasn't buddying me." "Because he wasn't buddying me, we can be buddies." It's...really weird. Just a summary no buddying, not even quoting crossfire's posts and explaining how he misinterpreted them.
Okay, these are basically the 2 points in favour and against that Crossfire<->ghost link that seem plausible.
EHmm...both make some sense. It does seem weird for scum ghost to say "now he's my buddy <3" about his scumbuddy but don't do anything about it....but if he noticed Xfire defending him, it's possible he wanted to post something to address that fact in case someone mentioned it later. Like, ghost goes on scum QT "Yo Xfire wtf? Don't buddy up to me" and then decides to do something to address it in the thread without bussing his teammate.
Hmm, wait, how about this: ghost and Drazerk
Would that make sense? Mostly because of Drazerk having 1 additional KP on top of his red factional KP.
Right now...I'm leaning on Drazerk/ghost/Hiro as remaining scum. Kei/S&B town, Matt town and austin town (impressions I get, although I can find weird stuff with both Matt and austin to doubt them...I can't really think of them doing everything else they did as scum)
Differencing the colors between them is a pain in the ass though (there are only 6 combinations though).
On October 06 2012 11:03 gonzaw wrote: Jingle, Hiro, what do you guys think about ghost and what I wrote about him?
Don't worry Jingle, even if I'm RS ghost can be BS, so you can actually pay attention to what I say.
I hate using connections the way you just did. It's not reliable at all. Crossfire could very well have been mentioning ghost as town so much simply because he wanted to associate being against perfection as a town trait (protecting himself)
I got the feeling off ghost that he was just being dumb early on with the Keirathi "too much effort" thing but I'm not sure now. He seemed really unwilling to do anything on the s&b/nisani lynch and I'm having trouble deciding whether that was because he was busy or whether he just didn't care who got lynched. I need to see more from him to decide.
Who is BS then? You? Join in the discussion Hiro, who is the remaining BS and who is the remaining RS, or at least who is scum no matter what color he is?
On October 06 2012 19:27 Drazerk wrote: Too many scum faction for me to stop this so yeah cya in the obs thread
On October 06 2012 10:10 gonzaw wrote: Also, even if we 100% determine ghost is BS....do we lynch him? Scum KP seems to be more dangerous than whatever BS have (melee conditional KP and that shit), so maybe it can be better to try and lynch a RS and maybe let RS deal with ghost (although I doubt they will, like in Liar Game).
You don't seem as convinced on ghost, but this is a question we need to address.
If the factional KP is true, I'm all for killing the reds first. Specially if the remaining red has a similar ability to GlaDOS and can fuck things up.
Xfire's role seemed way too underpowered. He had 5-maximum 1 KP to use, only if a night action was used on him, and could only be used on the guy above or below him on the list. Compared to GlaDOS who was a RBer/GF/other shit that seems very underwhelming. Again considering Gordon Freeman is the most "important" figure from Black Mesa one would assume he got the best powers (just like you would assume GlaDOS got the best powers from RS). If so, then the remaining BS dude has shitty powers right? Maybe some kind of Framer ability that could deal 1 KP in some way or something.
It's also possible someone like G-Man is actually the "superior" to Freeman in Black Mesa and has better powers, and Freeman was just a normal goon (because seriously, Freeman's power is worse than a red goon's one).
Everything seems to point to getting rid of RS first, unless I'm missing something.
On October 07 2012 05:12 Mattchew wrote: Lynch draz maybe hiro tomorrow
Why Hiro? Matt, again, don't go scummy lurker on me. You are not confirmed town by any means so start discussing.
Either way, if Drazerk does end up being scum...it seems most likely the remaining scum will surrender, since it will be 8v1 (again, most likely) and I don't think any scum can win that, even if the scum was Keirathi or S&B or Mattchew for instance (specially if he's a KP-less BS).
On October 07 2012 03:20 austinmcc wrote: If you're still around keirathi,
On October 06 2012 10:10 gonzaw wrote: Also, even if we 100% determine ghost is BS....do we lynch him? Scum KP seems to be more dangerous than whatever BS have (melee conditional KP and that shit), so maybe it can be better to try and lynch a RS and maybe let RS deal with ghost (although I doubt they will, like in Liar Game).
You don't seem as convinced on ghost, but this is a question we need to address.
If the factional KP is true, I'm all for killing the reds first. Specially if the remaining red has a similar ability to GlaDOS and can fuck things up.
Xfire's role seemed way too underpowered. He had 5-maximum 1 KP to use, only if a night action was used on him, and could only be used on the guy above or below him on the list. Compared to GlaDOS who was a RBer/GF/other shit that seems very underwhelming. Again considering Gordon Freeman is the most "important" figure from Black Mesa one would assume he got the best powers (just like you would assume GlaDOS got the best powers from RS). If so, then the remaining BS dude has shitty powers right? Maybe some kind of Framer ability that could deal 1 KP in some way or something.
It's also possible someone like G-Man is actually the "superior" to Freeman in Black Mesa and has better powers, and Freeman was just a normal goon (because seriously, Freeman's power is worse than a red goon's one).
Everything seems to point to getting rid of RS first, unless I'm missing something.
On October 07 2012 05:12 Mattchew wrote: Lynch draz maybe hiro tomorrow
Why Hiro? Matt, again, don't go scummy lurker on me. You are not confirmed town by any means so start discussing.
you forget, gordon freeman was a day vig. Given that there are at least two protective powers in a small game, that does make the role quite a bit more powerful. There's also the possibility that the black team has other powers which have synergy with the list changing.
So far I haven't seen anything at all that has bearings on the player list. I haven't even seen that JK "spot" in the list from Mementos earlier on D1 (I can't think of too many reasons to hide that info from town though). I haven't seen Xfire use his ability on anyone (although yes, being a day vig makes it seem more powerful against the medics). If it's something that can happen it either hasn't happened yet or it's completely harmless for now.
I wouldn't mind ghost roleclaiming right now either. We are getting closer to a "townies vs 1 scum" scenario, where we will basically massclaim. If someone claiming right now can help us arrive there sooner, or someone fake-claiming can help us kill him sooner (so we arrive there sooner as well) then I'm all for it. Disclaimer: No, me claiming right now won't get us to arrive there sooner
Disclaimer: I know this may be "important" and a "scumslip" later when I claim so I'll address it now: I didn't leave breadcrumbs of my role name/abilities/etc. Reason? I couldn't really be arsed to fake a post just to breadcrumb my role, and check each letter and stuff and try to make it hidden. Also every time I crumb and claim, the crumb itself doesn't really matter at all (e.g Bang Bang Mafia 2, the original Aperture Mafia, etc).
On October 07 2012 09:11 Drazerk wrote: Well I'm being lynched so why would I help you figure out whos on the other scum team so you can kill them off
Are you black or red? That "aditional KP" thing is driving me nuts. You are going to lose anyways right? Why would you care about another scum team? (specially if you are BS, since the other scum team fucked you up).
On October 07 2012 09:13 ghost_403 wrote: Sup draz. Given one bullet, who would you like to shoot?
Sup ghost. You just asked the guy that just claimed scum in the post above you who to shoot, and ignored everything else. Nice going there if you are town.
On October 07 2012 09:22 Drazerk wrote: I fail to see how I claimed scum with that post.
I am going to be laughing so much at my lynch though
On October 07 2012 09:11 Drazerk wrote: Well I'm being lynched so why would I help you figure out whos on the other scum team so you can kill them off
There are 2 possibilities:
1)You were talking in context of this post:
On October 07 2012 08:44 Drazerk wrote: 3 teams of 4
That makes the most sense to me right now.
Which doesn't seem likely since you mention "I help you figure out whos on the other scum team.." and not "scum teams". Still in context of that quote it doesn't make sense at all since your quote doesn't make sense at all.
2)The only other options is you claiming scum and not wanting to help us figure out the other actual scum team.
Why won't you claim your role name nor any other abilities you have but didn't tell us about?
It's right there on your role PM, you don't have to make any effort. If you are scum you do have to make an effort (ask safe-claims, figure out flavour to post) and I take it if you are scum you don't really want to go through all that effort (which seems what's happening right now).
On October 07 2012 09:29 Drazerk wrote: Because anyone with half a brain could see what my role is by now I really didn't make it subtle
I know what you are implying....that you are an Aperture Science executive. That flavour doesn't really make it any better, considering the robot that guy created just flipped scum.
On October 07 2012 09:29 Drazerk wrote: Because anyone with half a brain could see what my role is by now I really didn't make it subtle
I know what you are implying....that you are an Aperture Science executive. That flavour doesn't really make it any better, considering the robot that guy created just flipped scum.
Since you apparently found what he's talking about, care to share?
I'm loathe to wade through the cess pool that is his filter.
Remember when he threw a lemon granade back at you.
Apparently he's Cave Johnson, Aperture Science CEO before the GLaDOS stuff. If all townies are Test Subjects+friendly objects from the game+people under the opression of Aperture Science....where does that leave Cave Johnson?
He was kind of an okay guy in the tapes (ie. wasn't murderous like GlaDOS)......except for the forcing people to fight mantises and experimenting on hobos and shit so I can't really know. Hmm.
I'm wondering what town roles are out there. I can only imagine mine, Kei's/S&B's, and Chell/Wheatly, but that still leaves 3 (or 4 if I'm one of Chell/Wheatly) more people (assuming we are at 8v1v1) and I don't really remember any specific lore from the games to figure out the remaining ones. If there was a shortage of town roles I could see Cave being there (and the scum being a turret or something like I speculated before).
Yes and No. He did nothing, which is either usual scum trying to survive or very dumb town Drazerk being Drazerk
I guess there's no choice but to kill him though.
Also ghost, I can use that quote against you as well, "find some scum". I've posted tons of stuff about Drazerk's behaviour from D1, which basically fits his behaviour all game. I don't remember you doing so. I don't remember you doing anything ever since FoSing S&B on D2. You can't use that quote against me You also haven't mentioned anything that was talked about you today.
On October 07 2012 09:51 Drazerk wrote: Kill me with a Vigilante wasting a lynch on me is retarded on all levels and you guys know this
As much as I like that idea, we can't be sure we have another/a vig (remember you supposedly are one right?) There are other options to try to just "confirm you" as scum or town (if we have a DT or tracker or watcher out there), but with the possibilities of one of the 2 scum roles fucking up reports and shit that isn't reliable either.
On October 06 2012 05:10 gonzaw wrote: Yeah, it's possible. However, if there was 1 KP that got to S&B. someone must have shot it. If the guy that shot it was town, he'd have claimed, therefore it's either scum or SK KP (basically anti-town KP). Drazerk claimed that KP and nobody cc'ed, so it at least proves Drazerk shot him (whether as town, scum or SK).
You may be right about the targets though, maybe a town bus driver bussed S&B with a pro-town townie and scum/SK Drazerk shot S&B instead of his intended target.
Yeah, we might leave that out until we have more claims or knowledge of night actions. However, if no town night action interfered with the kill, I think it's highly likely that if Drazerk is scum his shot was on the target he intended. It could be the same for 3rd party Drazerk, but maybe scum bussed S&B with someone and Drazerk didn't know.
This response is so wrong there's no justification for it from a town point of view.
Let's take a moment to examine what was said here:
Any unclaimed shot must be anti-town
Unquestioning belief that Draz is telling the truth
More blue fishing
Stuff that was just plain wrong
There are reasons why unclaimed shots might have been from someone in the town. For example, Lord Kanti's KP from Aperture Mafia. Based on the flips that have already occured this game, I don't think that it's irrational to assume that a role with KP doesn't have some other stuff associated with it. The fact that Draz didn't immediately claim his shot doesn't imply that he's scum.
That second part about the busdriver is (a) wrong and (b) blue fishing. In the event of a busdriver, 98% of the time, the person performing the action isn't notified of a bussing. Therefore, Draz would not know that he had bussed, and wouldn't have known to claim that he shot S+B. And why on earth are you implying that there's a town busdriver to begin with? Why do you keep fishing for blues?
As town, you should know better than to spout off stuff like this. You would have taken a step back and realized that this post doesn't accomplish anything other than create more chaos while people discuss why you are completely wrong. Town gonzaw is better than this.
On October 07 2012 09:45 ghost_403 wrote: Gonzaw, stop with the fucking setup speculation.
I don't know and I don't care about the rolls and the lore in the game. Aperture 1 was won by Foolishness pretty much saying "I don't care about the lore/roles/what'sgoingoninthethread. Let's find us some scum." Do that.
Do you think he's scum based on what he did in this game.
These posts seem to scream "srs business". If you find them in a normal filter you wouldn't flinch and say "yep, this guy is taking this game serious and doesn't tolerate non-sense".
However, those are the only 2 posts with "content" you made in like 72 hours. That contrast is fucking scummy as hell. You are "so serious" and you want "people to stop speculating and scumhunt" when you didn't do shit at all. How does that make sense? How does it make sense for you to be so serious about the game in one post.....disappear completely then appear out of nowhere and be so serious about the game as well......and don't do anything constructive? Can someone tell me how that makes sense?
If you were doing what Drazerk is doing and just not caring at all about anything, I may understand, since not contributing since D2 and barely posting even when you are active are signs of not caring at all and that behaviour is consistent. But your behaviour isn't consistent at all because of those reasons above. You are acting like you care about the game......but I take it all of us know how that fares.
On October 07 2012 10:14 ghost_403 wrote: If I don't have time to figure out what's going on in the thread, I don't post. I could come in here and spam up in the ten minutes I've got free during lunch, or I could just not post until I have an hour or two to figure out what's going on in the thread. Which would you prefer, and how does this conversation help you find scum?
Even if you can't figure things out, posting helps figure out your behaviour and those little things scum have to fake (quick interactions with people for instance) that townies don't, and it helps a lot figuring out your alignment.
Posting "I'll go read the game and be back in a few hours with thoughts" helps too, instead of just keep it inside you.
If you have 10 minutes free then it doesn't help that much, but at any time you've read the thread it does.
until I have an hour or two to figure out what's going on in the thread
You also haven't done this as far as I'm concerned. What's going on in the thread ghost? Either you post that you won't be active (like Hiro) or do what you said you would (read the thread when you have 1-2 free hours and figure out what's going on in the thread).
Also again, your behaviour with those posts of yours isn't consistent, and hypocritical when you ask me to find scum and figure out Drazerk's alignment when you haven't tried to do so yourself all game long; or when the posts you "try" to contribute is a bad response to a speculative post of mine and nothing else.
For instance, it's been like 1 hour between your first and last post. Wasn't that enough to read the thread and "figure things out"? I mean, there are only 7 pages from D3, it's not that bad. If you were too lazy/exhausted to read it/read filters I could understand (happens to me a lot)....but you didn't say anything about it so I can't assume you were, specially with your outburst of "if I have 10 free minutes I can only post one-liners, but if I have 1 or 2 free hours I'm super-contribution-machine and try to figure things out and shit".
tl;dr: Don't make up excuses ghost, do something. At least react to what has been said Maybe I should just drop this.
On October 07 2012 10:32 ghost_403 wrote: So am I a hypocrite or am I scum?
Hypocrite certainly. You can be both you know. I'm leaning on the scum side, at least as long as you show complete disinterest in the game, combined with all the shit you did/didn't do in the past.
On October 07 2012 09:58 Drazerk wrote: Sure Kei and then you lose because S+B was scum
If S&B is scum at this point, I'll fucking eat my hat. And post pictures of it.
Hmm, we can have a way of proving if he's scum I think
To S&B:
Hmm, I had an interesting thought: What if right before the deadline, you claim who you are targeting?
Because the paranoid thought of you being scum has crossed my head after what Keirathi said (that as scum you'd be convinced P-Body was town and would vouch for you), so I just want to make sure.
I'm proposing this for this reason: If you are scum telling lies....you still don't know what the other scumteam will do. If you are BS the RS have factional KP, if you are RS you don't know if BS will use a KP that night or not. If you claim you save someone, and that person dies, you are certainly lying and are scum. If you are scum and didn't claim right before the deadline, after that person dies you can always claim you saved another one.
May work, may not work, but I don't see the harm in doing it. Another way of doing this is having Keirathi claim who he's targeting right before the deadline. Same principle applies, if he claims he targeted someone and that player dies, then S&B was lying and didn't actually save that guy.
I'd propose a role name massclaim to try and make sense of the Cave Johnson thing....but meh I'm not sure if it'd do any good (as far as I know, only the player list is important for scum/town roles, not role names).
If other people agree I can claim mine first. We can see irregularities in fake-claims that way
IF he is scum (god, how many times do I have to give reasons that he's not? maybe I should just get flipped...), then of course he's going to tell you he's targetting X, while in reality he's shooting Y. The chance of overlap is pretty small, especially considering we've only been having 1 KP each night. Your chance of catching him as scum with that plan is remarkably tiny.
And, assuming he's town (because he is town), what if there *IS* overlap and 2 KP go through to the person he targetted and therefor dies? You just "confirmed" scum on a townie (ironically at the same % chance of having caught him as scum if he is scum).
If he's scum, he says he's targeting X but shoots Y, and the other scum shoots X....he's fucked. If there is overlap and 2 KP go through and he dies...he flips town...so what's the problem?
I know the probabilities make it seem like it won't work (if he's scum). But if it doesn't hinder town in any way I don't see why we can't do it, it's just claiming a target right before the deadline instead of doing it the next day, you are going to do it anyways (well...he didn't claim his target today for some reason).
It's not worth it having an endless argument about it though.
Keirathi: You still convinced Draz is scum? Even after his Cave Johnson claim (which apparently happened on D2) and all that shit I said. If you don't like setup speculation fine, just answer "yes".
ghosty You're probably right, and I don't care. I think that Gonzaw pushed his scum buddy Day 1 when he made a crappy vote, pulled his vote after it started gaining traction, then abandoned thread when it started to look like his scum buddy going down. It makes sense, it's not a bad move to make as scum.
Specially the "momentum" part. Am I lying or not about that? Please read that part of the thread (it's less than 1 page anyways) and tell me if I'm wrong or not.
When you combine that with the fact that Gonzaw has spent most of the thread mudslinging and whining
This may be true at times, specially when I get frustrated, for instance about Jingle or about having wrong reads or not solid ones.
instead of scumhunting
Now this is baseless conjecture. Prove I didn't scumhunt this game.
, and the fact that he's frequently and repeated suggested and pushed massclaims when we really don't know anything about the game setup.
That's the point of having people claim: understand the setup. Although I don't remember pushing massclaims but rather claims from specific people, like S&B, P-body, Drazerk and you (and the role names).
On October 07 2012 11:30 ghost_403 wrote: Oh, and there's that stuff with his new plan to tell scum who the medic is protecting right before the deadline. Yeah, that's a pro-town plan. If the medic targets town, scum can kill the confirmed town. If the medic targets the confirmed town, scum can have their way with whoever they think would look best dead. Great plan there, buddy.
Do you know what "right before deadline" means? Ghost...there's something you haven't answered yet:
On October 02 2012 05:36 ghost_403 wrote: Something's off about austin's play this game. I dunno what. I can't put my finger on it, and I have no idea why. I think I'm going to read a few of his previous games.
I'm still happy trying to lynch Keirathi today. After his initial case on Mattchew, he's done more or less no analysis this game. If looking through austin's previous games doesn't yield anything interesting, I might spend a bit more time staring at Keirathi's filter and write up my thoughts on it.
IMP doesn't read like scum to me at a moment. I didn't see anything substantial in the cases presented in the thread to change my mind on that at the moment.
Okay, you mention IMP doesn't read like scum to you....but what about what IMP did? You know, voting you? Why did you ignore it nor acknowledged it nor defended yourself?
What was the purpose of this post? Why did you come out of hiding to just accuse that post of mine? Not only that....why did you do it so poorly? Like really, it seems obvious. Here I'll spoiler it to you since I'm sure you'll ask why it's "poor":
There are reasons why unclaimed shots might have been from someone in the town. For example, Lord Kanti's KP from Aperture Mafia. Based on the flips that have already occured this game, I don't think that it's irrational to assume that a role with KP doesn't have some other stuff associated with it. The fact that Draz didn't immediately claim his shot doesn't imply that he's scum.
Drazerk claimed that KP and nobody cc'ed, so it at least proves Drazerk shot him
Let's go about it logically:
P1)S&B got shot only once P2)Drazerk claimed he shot S&B P3)Nobody counterclaimed Drazerk P4)If someone claims an unique action, and another townie did that action, then that townie cc's the original claimer. P5)If someone claims an unique action, and no townie cc's him, then that player either did that unique action or he's scum and a scumbuddy of his did it. P6)If a scumbuddy of yours shoots someone, it still counts as if you shot him (since you are part of that scum team).
T1)Because of (P1), shooting S&B is an unique action T2)Because of (T1) and (P4): If someone claims he shot S&B, and another townie did so, that townie cc's the guy that claims he shot S&B T3)Because of (T2) and (P2): If another townie shot S&B, that townie cc's Drazerk T4)Because of (T3) and (P4): No townie shot S&B T5)Because of (T1),(P2),(T4) and (P5): Drazerk either shot S&B or is scum and his scumbuddy did it T)Because of (T5) and (P6): Drazerk shot S&B
This doesn't take into account maybe someone from another faction shooting S&B and Drazerk claiming the shot himself and the other faction scum not claiming; but that's unlikely as well...and we didn't know there was a 2nd scum faction at that time.
Also you may doubt (P1) but I can prove it to you:
(P0)S&B is town (P'1)S&B got shot (P'2)If someone is town and is shot, he claims all the times he's shot and all the details (P'3)If S&B gets shot more than once he dies (optional) (P'4)S&B was alive on D2 (P'5)S&B claimed he got shot once
(T'1)Because of (P0) and (P'1): S&B claimed all the times he's shot and all the details (T'2)Because of (T'1) and (P'5): S&B got shot once.
(T'3)Because of (P'3) and (P'4): S&B didn't get shot more than once (T'4)Because of (T'3) and (P'1): S&B got shot once
Damn syllogisms are fun
Also, your conclusion there is kind of irrelevant. My conclusion was that Drazerk shot S&B You never mention that that conclusion is wrong, you just spout things like "unaccounted KP can be made from town" (I'll give it to you that that you may be right about that part of my post, but it was just a transitional thought I had) and "The fact that Draz didn't immediately claim his shot doesn't imply that he's scum." which again is irrelevant to the conclusion I made. I don't ever mention at all in that post that Draz is scum for not claiming his shot beforehand (that's something I pressure him about in other posts, previous ones I think).
In the event of a busdriver, 98% of the time, the person performing the action isn't notified of a bussing. Therefore, Draz would not know that he had bussed, and wouldn't have known to claim that he shot S+B
No townie claimed the shot, it's natural that if this happened he would have figured out he was bussed. After nobody claims the shot nor the bus after he claims, he's sure he was the one that shot him.
Also again, if he claims he shot S&B, and a town bus driver drove S&B and Draz' original target, the town driver would have known something is fishy since Draz' original target didn't claim the shot. Unless he drove Mementos. Even then he would know something is weird since it means someone shot Mementos. Even then the bus driver doesn't even matter since it means 1 guy shot S&B and 1 guy shot mementos.
And why on earth are you implying that there's a town busdriver to begin with? Why do you keep fishing for blues?
I'm not implying there's a town busdriver I'm only taking into account the possibility. Also that's not fishing for blues.
As town, you should know better than to spout off stuff like this. You would have taken a step back and realized that this post doesn't accomplish anything other than create more chaos while people discuss why you are completely wrong. Town gonzaw is better than this.
I'm logically proving Drazerk did shot S&B so people stop speculating about Drazerk not shooting him (Keirathi did at one point say that he didn't like speculating since maybe some weird thing happened or some shit).
That's the opposite of chaos cupcake. I'm giving people real, unaltered and trusty information.
Town gonzaw is better than this.
Now this is where I got weirded out. Everybody knows I do this as town; any townie that already played with me would know. You played with me several times when I was town, at least I remember the original Aperture (I think you were there). Even if you don't know what I do as town, you can't assume that you do and be wrong about it. Specially when my post has a purpose (prove/decide what happened N1 with Drazerk/S&B)
On October 07 2012 12:59 austinmcc wrote: Caught up on the last couple pages.
Drazerk, when you say you've made it obvious, everyone seems to be latching onto the Cave Johnson bit. And you claimed one-shot vig which I still don't believe.
Are you hinting at being a DT? Hearing you say you've been obvious about it makes me think you're claiming DT with a red check on snb or keirathi.
He shot S&B, so he has to have KP (either town vig KP, or scum KP).
He doesn't care that much to have a red DT check on any of them. If he had he would have at least just FoSed the guy he had a red check on, not just say "kill both of them eventually". I think that's unlikely.
austin, what would you do if Drazerk flips town? Who would you look at?
My main point is: How will you guys react if Drazerk is town? There seems to be no motivation to do anything at all today and everybody just assumes Drazerk will flip scum and that will make this day "worth it". But just like some people on D2, if the flip is town the day is wasted (i.e people come once in the whole day, park their vote and leave, that kind of thing).
Does anybody have links to all games where Drazerk was scum, and how he acted in LYLO or before getting lynched in those games?
@Keirathi: My point is that Drazerk shot someone, and that shot landed on S&B (whether he shot S&B directly or not doesn't matter).
Well....I take it like this: 1-If S&B is shot directly: he loses one life 2-If S&B's target is shot directly: S&B loses one life, target doesn't lose life 3-If your target is shot directly: S&B loses one life, target doesn't lose life
I take it they all accumulate. If 1 guy shoots S&B, another shoots your target, and another shoots S&B's target, I take it all 3 KP go on him. Unless there's a RNG procedure to decide who gets shot in the case the combined KP exceeds S&B's lives.
Of course S&B would have more than 1 life, maybe even 3 (although I guess 2 is more likely).
I do find strange how in 2 nights there's only 1 accounted shot between you+your target+S&B+S&B's target. I would have assumed S&B would be riddled with bullets right now
Now onto wild conjecture that means absolutely nothing and no one should even pay any attention to:
What about this version of events from night 1?
Drazerk shot S&B. A bus driver (I still maintain there is one; "Portal Edition" just screams bus driver to me) switched Mementoss and S&B, presumably to get S&B killed rather than Mementoss who they thought was town. So Drazerk killed Mementoss via the bus, and someone else shot one of mine or S&B's targets (to trigger the hit notification). Then Drazerk gets his panties all in a bunch about S&B living when it had absolutely nothing to do with S&B being scum.
Obviously has no bearing whatsoever on Drazerk's alignment, because it could play out the same either way
If I recall S&B targeted Hiro (don't remember who you targeted). Hiro seems unlikely to be RS (although could be BS), so it's possible RS would target him.
You think maybe Chell is the busdriver with the Portal Gun? If this happened that night: -Chell targeted S&B and Mementos -Drazerk shot S&B -RS shot Hiro -S&B targeted Hiro -BS didn't do anything because their powers suck
then it's possible... ...it's also possible Drazerk shot S&B directly, which seems more likely.
And it also means a bus driver (townie in this case it seems) kept his mouth shut while this whole misunderstanding took place. I mean, knowing scum shot Hiro instead of Mementos is a big deal. Even after claiming a town bus driver is useful since scum don't know what he will do and can still fuck them up. I assume that's not the case since he would have claimed.
Night actions confuse the hell out of me this game. I don't understand them at all. .
On October 07 2012 12:59 austinmcc wrote: Caught up on the last couple pages.
Drazerk, when you say you've made it obvious, everyone seems to be latching onto the Cave Johnson bit. And you claimed one-shot vig which I still don't believe.
Are you hinting at being a DT? Hearing you say you've been obvious about it makes me think you're claiming DT with a red check on snb or keirathi.
He shot S&B, so he has to have KP (either town vig KP, or scum KP).
He said he shot snb. He claimed one-shot vig. He also said he made his role obvious.
I proved Drazerk shot S&B (check the spoiler of my response to ghost's case)
Or at least I like to think I did so it makes me feel awesome and shit
I could see you as a possible red AND possible black, laid out some possible reasons for that, and also iirc in Can't Believe you had incorrect reads and started to flip out about it, really pressure some folks and argue hard. Here, you've had incorrect reads and you seem to have ... gotten sulky about it? You've been saying you'll take a break, that you're not liking your play, and doing lots of speculative stuff with who could be on what scum team and connected to who. We DO need to discuss that stuff, but it just feels like your reaction to having some wrong reads is different this game than it was in Can't Believe, and it's bugging me.
Can't Believe was easy in retrospect. I had awful reads on D1/N1, but considering you and sciberbia's play until D2, and S&B upping his game, and Mattchew going scummy lurker, and all that shit (talismania disappearing off the face of the earth, etc), once I stopped and analyzed everybody's play it clicked and seemed obvious who was scum and who was not (I guess you are talking about my play from D2 onwards there).
I just don't have that here. Maybe it's the multiple faction thing that's fucking my reads (I suck at multiple faction reads...just read Liar Game again, I failed hard there), and I can really see most of you as scum or town, because in both cases you guys can legitimately scumhunt (for the other scum team) and post legit reasonings/thought processes/etc, which is what I'm most used to looking for and what I'm "good" at (I suck at analyzing plays from other perspectives, iGrok's mini game is proof of that)
I take that as me playing badly (kind of like in iGrok's mini in a way), and that seriously bums me out.
Right now I'm just kind of resigned to get discussion going and not letting the thread die (as well as getting some reactions from you guys as well....but that doesn't seem too promising as of now), and just post any thoughts I have and explain myself so I don't get misslynched (or get closed to getting mislynched like in Can't Believe) ; but I doubt you'll see me making a giant case on someone and leading a lynch any time soon (at least not this D3). I know I'm bound to change my mind many times and second guess myself. At least when it respects Hiro/ghost/Drazerk/Jingle and maybe you/Matt/S&B (I guess my town read on Keirathi is the only thing constant here >_>.....now see this biting me in the ass when in Post-Game it's revealed he was scum all along <_< )
I still don't get the Draz DT thing....he's made no insinuation at that. He even claimed his role (finally) and it doesn't seem like a DT at all (at all it's consistent with his "lemon KP" power).
Even if he flips DT...who did he check? Kei or S&B? I assume it was S&B on N1? Then again...what about S&B losing 1 life? If it was a scum shot then Drazerk claiming the scum shot for himself does not seem likely at all.
Okay, it seems Drazerk was town on Bastard 2 and scum on PTP3. I'll go and look at those games. There's something in particular that's worrying me about Drazerk this game and I want to see if he does that as town or scum.
The thing I'm worried about is him being so invested in the D2 lynch. He desperately wanted S&B lynched there, and stick around until the deadline and after it. If we assume Drazerk is the sole remaining mate from his scum team, why would he be so invested in the lynch if he knows someone other than him would get lynched? Someone mentioned that he was playing for self-preservation...and well that doesn't really sound like self-preservation. It's either a townie concern for the lynch or an active scum agenda, not just "trying to survive".
He didn't seem that invested in the D1 lynch though, like at all (parked vote on austin and that's it). That contrast seems weird to me (one way or the other)
Oh, as for the whole ignoring the case against him part. Maybe he just didn't feel threatened by it and would only respond to the case if it picked up momentum.
Why is he responding for ghost? Maybe ghost is his buddy after all?
Damn. Let me finish the Drazerk thing first though
On October 07 2012 14:04 gonzaw wrote: The thing I'm worried about is him being so invested in the D2 lynch. He desperately wanted S&B lynched there, and stick around until the deadline and after it. If we assume Drazerk is the sole remaining mate from his scum team, why would he be so invested in the lynch if he knows someone other than him would get lynched? Someone mentioned that he was playing for self-preservation...and well that doesn't really sound like self-preservation. It's either a townie concern for the lynch or an active scum agenda, not just "trying to survive".
He didn't seem that invested in the D1 lynch though, like at all (parked vote on austin and that's it). That contrast seems weird to me (one way or the other)
It's more than just that.
His D1 was not Drazerk-y. Then D2, poof! Lightning rods, push snb, fake grenades, etc. The D1 --> D2 swap is just entirely different play, let alone investment.
This is what I noticed too.
If he's red, wouldn't it be the other way round? Like act Drazerk-y while his teammate is still alive and when his teammate dies lurk, park your vote on someone unrelated (like when he did on you) and disappear and just spout bullshit every once and then?
Justifying a red Drazerk going Drazerk-y because he really wanted to kill S&B because "S&B had protection and he'd have wanted to kill him as scum and so tried all he could to do so"....meh I don't really buy it. It's possible though...but it doesn't really explain Drazerk's activity regarding the lightning rod thingy, and just being active there all the time.
I would have thought a red Drazerk would have at least mentioned IAM in some way. In PTP3 he bussed almost all his teammates without giving 2 shits about it. Granted, if he's red and he only has 1 teammate it may change...but does Drazerk change his play like that?
Damn...I keep reading PTP3 and Bastard....and I get a feeling he's playing like Bastard more.
Like, in Bastard and here his posts have that "I don't really care, I'm just having fun" aura. In PTP3 they didn't. Fuck it's hard to explain, since there aren't exact quotes that can explain that feeling.
For instance, I don't get that feeling from this post (PTP3):
On August 30 2012 02:59 Drazerk wrote: Huh I never did give butterfree a flying attack...
Me and JH discussed almost every possible reason as to why the night actions during N2 was screwed with last night the short answer is we can't know until someone steps forward or we kill the person who screwed with it.
As for scum KP the easy answer could be they aren't killing anyone?
Be it via roleblock / medic protects / veteran abilities we simply don't know but that seems like the more logical solution rather than Hiro's solution which means Mattchew is 100% scum. I also threw around the idea the only KP scum have is the KP the players started with, that still might be the case for all we know.
This post doesn't seem like Drazerk made it. He's asking serious questions and suggesting things about KP and stuff. At other points he has similar posts. I don't see him making posts like this in this game.
He's fairly active in both, posts one-liners and shit and acts "similarly" (in those aspects at least), so that's hard to figure out.
Maybe I'm just being biased thinking that this will be a misslynch and trying to subconsciously find him townie by looking at his previous games. But hell I dunno.
I need some input on this if someone would like to read both filters. If you read both games and see how/when Drazerk responds better (just CTRL+F "Drazerk" and advance each page).
The wanting to kill S&B+Kei is one of those things that confuses me the most. It almost looks like a scum tunneling technique used to justify all of your posts (just post something related to killing those guys and that's it). If he's scum, the claiming of his shot, the confirmation of his shot, the claiming-breadcrumb of his rolename but refusal to claim it outright, and the fact that his ability is too "simple" confuse me if he was scum (like why the hell would he do those?).
Yes, I'd like more participation regarding this. I don't plan on taking a "he's not contributing or doing anything!" or "he just wants to kill S&B!" as justification for voting him. He's Drazerk, we all know how he tends to play. If we don't want to misslynch him we needs some serious analysis over here (or rather if we want to be sure we won't misslynch him).
You still think I'm BS? Fine, we can discuss that too. Although getting bombarded with "You are BS because of Crossfire bla bla bla" and "You are RS because you soft-bussed IAM bla bla bla" is getting tired. Just pick one of them and stick with it goddammit!
EBWOP: ^ I mean that in general. I have like 3 people thinking I'm BS and other 3 people thinking I'm RS. Defending myself against all accusations at the same time is tiring.
I don't think I should explain the difference in play, which is quite drastic. Comparing that to this game it's all PTP3 again. Sadly ghost's last scum game was like what, 1 year ago? (and he has only 1).
Hmm, his "meta" isn't good enough to take into account to be honest. I guess I'll just have to analyze his play here again.
Need a game where Jingle was scum though (he doesn't have links in his profile)
On October 07 2012 15:28 Keirathi wrote: Honestly I could make a case for you being either one. Hell, I LIKE the cases for both teams.
I'm not really sure what that should lead me to think though.
You know...I'd advice people to read Can't Believe and iGrok's game again, and then maybe read any game I've been scum (Liar Game included) and then decide if they still think I'm scum. I honestly think my town meta is like....a million miles different than my scum one (although my scum play may seem "convincing" inside the game in context).
If I was scum, you know I'd just post shit all this day and let town bandwagon on Drazerk (whatever alignment he is). At the very least if I thought Draz was the other scum and I wanted to save him I would have put another lynch candidate on the table by now (and you guys know I'm not "scared" of doing shit like that as scum) instead of mumbling all over the place.
Also I think I would have died of exhaustion as scum by now, with all the posting I did (it certainly takes me a while to make posts as scum, you know, deciding what course of action to take and all that jazz)
Hmm, what about Hiro? If you can read his filter up there (although I think even LVII or whatever he was in recently would be useful as well).
I'm running out of guys that can be RS to be honest. I'm stuck with Jingle right now if I'm using a process of elimination (Hiro can't because of the above and the IMAP vote, Matt for leading the IAM lynch, Drazerk because of that gut feeling, austin and you and S&B for being town). Only ghost could be RS as well (although I don't really buy him being RS for now); but I don't know what to think of this elimination process.
You know, I really want to think of austin as town.....I really do. But...just the paranoid feeling I have of always having bad reads and that feeling that the guys I'm pursuing just don't feel right for being scum, plus some very minor things he does make me wary.
For instance his insistance on finding keirathi scummy all game long when it didn't really seem he was convinced by it (no matter how much he explained). Or some stuff like posting that player list regarding Mementos' JK ability, and being kind of too wordy in certain aspects, that seem to make him look "super pro-town" but I don't really know if it makes him so.
In the other hand he's at least active in some discussions, like this Drazerk one for instance, and I'm a sucker for people active in discussions.
Maybe in the end the remaining scum team is something like austin-Mattchew or something like that.
All my town games end like that, I think some guys are scum and then completely different guys end up being scum and I end up being embarrassed as shit (Can't Believe the exception though).
^^ Okay, don't buy it then and ignore it (you may be right about that though. I don't think I would personally try to take a bandwagon off a townie and looking scummy in the process...but I guess there are other players out there that would). I'd like you to read my previous games though.
austin feels too "safe". In Can't Believe I remember him going against the wall to get talismania lynched. Although I admit I could see him being safe there if it wasn't for the talis lynch he lead. If austin is the sole scum remaining, I guess his actions make sense (playing safe like that) That thing you said about "scum are probably in panic right now" struck me as interesting. If there is 1 scum remaining, he'd basically play like a 3rd party right now, and 3rd parties always try to be pro-town as possible (non-Palmar 3rd parties at least >_> ). It's kind of like Rad's play from iGrok's game. I fell for it and thought it was very pro-town...yet there was always the feeling that he could be something, specially since he was alive for too long.
There's the iamperfection connections too, although I don't really want to pay attention to them. There's the Mementos stuff, which may be WIFOM, but well it's there and Mementos did make some points against him.
Nothing else concrete though, it's not like I have a case or anything, just a bugging sensation. Again, people's thoughts are welcome.
On October 07 2012 16:05 Keirathi wrote: Damnit, I did it again.
Austin was killed night 1 in Can't Believe. Sciberbia (his mason buddy) was the one who went so hard against talismania on day 2.
marv was killed on N1, austin on N2 I remember both of them leading the lynch on talis. Although that implication does mean austin lead the lynch as well.
On October 07 2012 23:17 JingleHell wrote: Oh, and the SNB/Keirathi claim protection target thing is stupid too. If they were scum, which I really don't believe at this point, all they'd have to do is not send in an NK and whammo, they're confirmed town, because they saved the NK!
You forgot the part where, if S&B saves someone he will most likely die (he doesn't have infinite lives). If he claims 10 shots and is still alive we know something is wrong. ALso...if they don't send a NK then: 1)There won't be any town deaths 2)If the other scum team use KP on the guys they claimed they saved, they are fucked
How are those 2 things bad? Nevermind don't answer that "plan" won't happen so let's just ignore it. About the 2 scum per team: Okay, first of all if this ends up being wrong I'll feel like shit...and I'll be kind of mad at the scum-town distribution of this game. But like I and Hiro said: If there are more than 2 scum per team there would be like 6-7 town members total and 6 scum total in a minigame with possibly 2 or more scum KP per night. That's just wrong, very wrong, even if we have a "medic/bodyguard" (which can still die, it's not a medic that can save infinite lives), a medic and a jailer. Those roles protect night KP, but not from lynches. If town ever so as misslynch on D1 then basically they lose since scum have more members than them. I don't know why me assuming there are 2 per team is pushing a scum agenda, unless you can prove me wrong. To austin:
On October 08 2012 01:19 austinmcc wrote: Gonzaw, why this -
On October 07 2012 15:31 gonzaw wrote: Sadly ghost's last scum game was like what, 1 year ago? (and he has only 1).
Hmm, his "meta" isn't good enough to take into account to be honest. I guess I'll just have to analyze his play here again.
but then making reads on me this game based off town play in Can't Believe? Ghost doesn't have a recent scum game, so you have to analyze his play here. I don't have a recent scum game, so I'm scum because of my play in another game.
Also, check D1 of Can't Believe again. I can go more in depth if needed, but I'm not balls to the wall on talis all of D1. I rant about him, try to get him lynched, but in the end (1) i pick up more votes than he does and (2) I unvote him because he posts a single list of reads, like halfway through D1. Marv even called me out on letting go of my talis vote for a little post of reads. I push talis D2 again, because mason buddy and I both agreed on him being scum (See Ver quote again).
I said his "meta" isn't good enough to take into account. I've read his town games, and I saw he has similar behaviour in them. After reading his town games I didn't really conclude anything, he could be either scum or town in this game (there are things similar to his town games, but also there are things that are scummy in this game, like the lack of contributions from D2 til now for instance).
austin, it makes me feel like you are indeed playing safer this game. I don't even remember who you wanted to lynch each day, I only remember you trying to make that last minute switch on Keirathi at the end of D1 but then seemingly forgetting about your scumread on him, and then making that vote on Nisani which didn't sound that convincing to me (as in, you weren't convinced he was scum and tried to get everybody to lynch Nisani and posted about it and shit). Ever since D2 I don't remember you being confident anybody is scum, but I also don't remember you telling us you aren't confident someone is scum.
For instance I don't know what you feel about the whole "Drazerk was Drazerk-y on D2 thing" You started discussing it with me+Keirathi, and while my stance was that Drazerk could be town, and Kei thought Drazerk could still be scum based on it....I don't even know what stance you had on it other than just talk and talk about Draz.
And now I don't know what stance you have on me. Do you want to lynch me or not? Do you want to lynch Draz or not? You haven't made explicit your thoughts about that at all.
I also haven't seen you "go back and check other games" from players. Maybe this is something you just did on Can't Believe...but I remember you going through an extensive analysis of Risen's play between all his past games in just D1, and doing the same with talis and other players on D2. Other than using some stuff from PTP3 to accuse Jingle on D1 (which was kind of weak I think), you haven't done that at all.
On October 08 2012 02:44 Keirathi wrote: So, something about gonzaw:
I've been reading his filters from Can't Believe (town) and Liar Game (scum). His filter this game feels much more like Can't Believe than Liar game. From all the town reads, to the weird setup speculation...it just feels more like Can't Believe.
I still think his play this game could make sense as Black Scum, since they would have wanted to remain hidden and be townie-like, but he's moved way down my list of possible Red Scum.
Does his reaction to have some bad reads this game and that game feel different to you? I can't quite fully vocalize it, but I have this gut feel that he's been more "woe is me" this game than in can't believe. It's not...it's not a scum tell, maybe he's just upset at it happening again. But there are some subtle difference that make me feel like his play this game looks close to can't believe but isn't really the same.
I already explained that, have you acknowledged that? If you want more "woe is me" behaviour look at iGrok's mini-game.
That reaction feels different, the fishing wasn't something that I got out of can't believe. If you look at mason chat especially, I'm convinced as of D2 that Gonzaw KNOWS sciberbia and I are masons. He's being a little coy about it in thread iirc. But he's not quite explicit about it, he's not quite poking us to make sure. I may have been being paranoid there, but his fishing in this game on protective roles doesn't seem similar to his Can't Believe play.
Okay, about the "fishing": You guys will understand later when I claim. There's a reason I'm "fishing": I want to know more about the setup (I've already said this and it's not a lie). Why? Well because my role is confusing the hell out of me and I don't know wtf is happening (both with my role and the lack of shit that happens each night). Remember I was VT in can't believe. I also didn't know you both were masons though :/ I mean...I didn't know who the remaining mason was even after you flipped >_> (I had an idea it was scib, but with him not claiming I wouldn't really know)
I'd really want everybody to answer this question so we can lynch the RS first (remember, factional KP). Because right now for me it's either you austin, Jingle, Drazerk or ghost.
I don't really get the feeling ghost is IAM's buddy (maybe that thing about IAM pushing him, although it's possible), and I don't seem to find Jingle as scum specially after reading his past games.
That leaves me with very few options, you and Drazerk basically. If we conclude Draz is town then that leaves me with even fewer options. Again, I don't know if this process of elimination is correct or even good to make...but it's what it leaves me with.
On October 07 2012 23:29 Drazerk wrote: I agree about the foreknowledge JH but it was in my best interest not to mention it until closer to the deadline. Now of course with two scum teams it isn't quite as clear as it normally would be but it still applies to some extent.
##Vote: gonzaw
On October 08 2012 02:00 HiroPro wrote: You guys are ignoring the most important thing....
Drazerk's s&b shot isn't just abnormal for him. It's also an inherently scummy action - townies shoot to kill scum, scum shoot to protect themselves.
That's what makes him scum, not this nonsense about whether he's drazerky or a dt or whatever else.
....fuck.
Now I don't really now if Draz is town :/ Why does that vote seem like "okay let me vote for the other guy that's gonna get lynched so I dont' get lynched myself" ? Also that point about shooting someone he doesn't think is scum...is good I think.
I also keep getting more and more paranoid of Mattchew. Super pro-town D1, barely active D2 and D3? That sounds familiar. If it wasn't for S&B being confirmed by Keirathi I'd get the same feeling there.
Reread Jingle and still don't get the feeling he's scum. When he's scum he tries to justify his votes very soon, and tries to contribute a little bit more, in the sense that he tries to get people to think he's contributing (still using that "aggressive" person of his, or trying to). In this game, he votes me, FoSes me, starts "assuming" I'm scum, but doesn't really care about justifying that FoS/vote. He doesn't seem to care about what people think of him, which strikes me different than his scum Newbie game for instance, or even from Mad Men.
On October 08 2012 03:57 Drazerk wrote: You all have to put on your surprised faces or its Drazerk hes a fucking dick posts.
Maybe someone will go a bit overboard on the post and someone will call it out.
For the love of god I hope someone looks at S+B / Kei when you see just how OP my one shot actually was and how it going missing is really bizarre.
Still Gonzaw / Hiro will probably go on the chopping boards which prolongs the two people you really need to kill before Lylo.
Future speculation is fun
1 KP is just 1 KP, how is it so OP?
Also, I know that "either austin or Draz are RS" is assuming I'm town...which I assume everybody is going to ignore and add me to that list as well. But meh
If so...then the reason he lived doesn't have anything to do with his alignment right? Maybe Mementos Jailed him so he resisted your KP, but Keirathi targeted S&B so he was anti-RBed (from Memento's jail)?
Maybe there's another medic that didn't claim yet and targeted him (doesn't seem that likely though, considering S&B's play until D2).
Again..assuming you tell the truth about your shot.
On October 08 2012 04:15 Drazerk wrote: Well no a medic could of saved him and a bus driver could have shifted medic abilities around especially with a bodyguard ability he could of absorbed someone elses medic save.
Tell me: If he's scum, how did he survive your shot?
On October 08 2012 04:15 Drazerk wrote: Well no a medic could of saved him and a bus driver could have shifted medic abilities around especially with a bodyguard ability he could of absorbed someone elses medic save.
Tell me: If he's scum, how did he survive your shot?
Scum medic?
Which scum?
GlaDOS was dead by N1, Crossfire wasn't medic. If S&B is scum, he's alone right now, right? Which scum medic would have saved him?
If you assume that, then you assume S&B is scum with someone else in a 3-man scum team.
On October 08 2012 04:15 Drazerk wrote: Well no a medic could of saved him and a bus driver could have shifted medic abilities around especially with a bodyguard ability he could of absorbed someone elses medic save.
Tell me: If he's scum, how did he survive your shot?
Scum medic?
Which scum?
GlaDOS was dead by N1, Crossfire wasn't medic. If S&B is scum, he's alone right now, right? Which scum medic would have saved him?
If you assume that, then you assume S&B is scum with someone else in a 3-man scum team.
I believe 4-4-4-1 ATM
How does that make any sense? It also means that if you are town, and I'm town, then nobody else is town in the freaking game.
So basically you are saying that S&B and Kei belong to the same scum team, and Keirathi is scum medic that saved S&B? So that's why you want to kill them so badly, since one of them flipping red, plus your ability means the other one is confirmed scum?
Even then: That means scum would have had 2 KP each night. Where are the 2 unaccounted for shots from N1 and N2?
On October 08 2012 04:15 Drazerk wrote: Well no a medic could of saved him and a bus driver could have shifted medic abilities around especially with a bodyguard ability he could of absorbed someone elses medic save.
Tell me: If he's scum, how did he survive your shot?
Scum medic?
Which scum?
GlaDOS was dead by N1, Crossfire wasn't medic. If S&B is scum, he's alone right now, right? Which scum medic would have saved him?
If you assume that, then you assume S&B is scum with someone else in a 3-man scum team.
I believe 4-4-4-1 ATM
How does that make any sense? It also means that if you are town, and I'm town, then nobody else is town in the freaking game.
So basically you are saying that S&B and Kei belong to the same scum team, and Keirathi is scum medic that saved S&B? So that's why you want to kill them so badly, since one of them flipping red, plus your ability means the other one is confirmed scum?
Even then: That means scum would have had 2 KP each night. Where are the 2 unaccounted for shots from N1 and N2?
Hello lightning rods
Hello guy that should have claimed on D1 but hasn't done that yet. If he targets all night actions then he can't possibly exist in this game (for instance: Nisani watched Mattchew. If he had watched Mementos then he would have seen everybody in the game visiting him).
Yep, this doesn't make any sense, we can know that. So...is Drazerk telling the truth or is he trying to confuse us?
If he's confusing us....why keep shut about his "unblockable KP" until now, instead of doing so on D2 and shit up the thread there?
On October 08 2012 04:29 Drazerk wrote: Because I didn't want to shit up the thread and possibly out a medic?
Yeah. If you are scum you would have done that though, right?
SO, if you are scum, and you are trying to confuse us, why didn't you do that then instead of now? Maybe you were waiting until you were almost dead to do it...but still it's weird you'd keep shut about this fake-claim of yours for 2 cycles if you were scum.
...damn, I don't really know what to do here. A NL is possible to try and make sense of all of this without having to kill Draz (in case he's town), but I dunno.
On October 08 2012 04:15 Drazerk wrote: Well no a medic could of saved him and a bus driver could have shifted medic abilities around especially with a bodyguard ability he could of absorbed someone elses medic save.
Tell me: If he's scum, how did he survive your shot?
Scum medic?
Which scum?
GlaDOS was dead by N1, Crossfire wasn't medic. If S&B is scum, he's alone right now, right? Which scum medic would have saved him?
If you assume that, then you assume S&B is scum with someone else in a 3-man scum team.
I believe 4-4-4-1 ATM
How does that make any sense? It also means that if you are town, and I'm town, then nobody else is town in the freaking game.
So basically you are saying that S&B and Kei belong to the same scum team, and Keirathi is scum medic that saved S&B? So that's why you want to kill them so badly, since one of them flipping red, plus your ability means the other one is confirmed scum?
Even then: That means scum would have had 2 KP each night. Where are the 2 unaccounted for shots from N1 and N2?
Hello lightning rods
Hello guy that should have claimed on D1 but hasn't done that yet. If he targets all night actions then he can't possibly exist in this game (for instance: Nisani watched Mattchew. If he had watched Mementos then he would have seen everybody in the game visiting him).
Yep, this doesn't make any sense, we can know that. So...is Drazerk telling the truth or is he trying to confuse us?
If he's confusing us....why keep shut about his "unblockable KP" until now, instead of doing so on D2 and shit up the thread there?
shitting up the thread is only useful if you actually have teammates to benefit from the chaos... it puts attention onto yourself.
frankly i don't see a scenario that explains what drazerk is saying. therefore he's lying.
He did put attention on himself, he claimed the shot on S&B and desperately wanted to get him lynched without explaining himself.
Something weird happened on N1, and I can vouch for that (again, regarding my role).
If I told you guys what happened to me you would say "I don't see a scenario that explains what gonzaw is saying, therefore he's lying" as well. Maybe I'm inclined to believe Draz because of that.
Hmm, didn't think about that. I doubt there is a RBer, maybe GLaDOS was the only RBer in the game.
I don't know how it would help this specific situation though....and it would actually add much more confusion. Specially taking into account my night actions last night (N2 not N1).
However...I don't know if what happened to me has any connection to what happened to S&B/Draz. What happened to me I thought was something punctual, a specific target from a scum or town night action, and has nothing to do with unblockable shots being blockable from unrelated players.
On October 08 2012 04:54 Keirathi wrote: Okay, does this help?
I targeted you night 1.
No. My night action did go through and I wasn't RBed or anything. Maybe scum shot me/Rbed me and it didn't matter because of you/S&B, but unless you are also scum or have hidden abilities that fucked me up it doesn't help. Thanks for the protection though.
Yeah sorry, it doesn't really help, so I don't think I'll claim. Like I said before, for really making sense of what info I have I need more info on the setups (i.e having other people claim), which I don't think is something I'd really want right now.
On October 08 2012 05:02 Drazerk wrote: Something that could stop me being lynched and you want S+B to contribute to that discussion? Ha...
You talking to me?
Like I said, what happened to me is unrelated to what happened to you. It just shows that something fucked up happened on N1 (to me), which makes me sympathize with you if something fucked up happened to you and your shot (i.e it's believable, to some extent).
S&B, before I listen to you on who to lynch, please post your thoughts on everything else that went on in this D3 thread. Like...stuff about me, stuff about Jingle, stuff about ghost and austin, etc. There's plenty of info lying around, why are you ignoring it just to get Draz lynched?
On October 08 2012 05:07 gonzaw wrote: S&B, before I listen to you on who to lynch, please post your thoughts on everything else that went on in this D3 thread. Like...stuff about me, stuff about Jingle, stuff about ghost and austin, etc. There's plenty of info lying around, why are you ignoring it just to get Draz lynched?
One scum at a time.
I've taken all that stuff into account and I still think drazerk is the best lynch.
Regarding you and Jingle: I don't find myself persuaded by Jingle at all, mostly because of presentation and how ridiculously abrasive he is. I could see you being scum, but I could also see you being town.
I think Ghost is more likely to flip scum than you are. Unless something changes I would like to lynch him next after Drazerk.
I have a town read on Austin - his posts just feel townie to me and I like the way he's explaining things and promoting a good town atmosphere.
Kay, what about Hiro and Mattchew?
I don't really want you to just sprout half-assed reads, I'd want you to address stuff that's been mentioned and post your thoughts.
For instance, do you agree on the Crossfire-ghost connection? Do you agree that austin is playing safe and not commiting as one would expect (as much "townie" his posts feel)? Do you agree that Jingle is just stubborn town and would try to appear less "Jingle-y" as scum (e.g try to explain all his accusations instead of doing what he did and appear bad)? Do you agree that Hiro is playing exactly like he did as town in his last few games and nothing like in RockBand mafia?
Who is the BS? Is Drazerk RS or BS?
*sigh* ...dunno, might as well get Drazerk lynched, but I'm not that convinced. Gonna be here for a while until the deadline and see what happens.
Also it's Sunday, where the fuck is ghost? (I assume he's not working right now).
So Drazerk, would you mind telling us who belong to each of those 4-4-4-1 factions? lol I still don't know if you are seriously suggesting that or is just another attempt to troll (regardless of alignment)
On October 08 2012 07:11 gonzaw wrote: So Drazerk, would you mind telling us who belong to each of those 4-4-4-1 factions? lol I still don't know if you are seriously suggesting that or is just another attempt to troll (regardless of alignment)
Probably 5-4-4 to make it fairer on town...
Okay, post the 4 RS and 4 BS please, or who you suspect may be each
On October 08 2012 08:02 gonzaw wrote: At least I'm not retarded
Or maybe you just knew in advance, which is why you staged that cute little change of heart, and started creating all that "what if" discussion, like I said.
Stop it. If I'm RS I can't know if he's BS and if I'm BS I can't know if he's RS without a DT check or something
Jingle, why were you here right before the deadline and didn't even try to get me lynched, specially when me/Draz/etc started voting for No-lynch and people started to back off Draz?
His "KP" is just 1 normal KP that he's sure will hit his target (it can't be RBed nor bussed). That's it. If the target is a vet (in the case of S&B) then he will be reduced 1 life, just like if he was a normal vig that wasn't bussed nor RBed.
It doesn't matter at all, so all that speculation Draz did was pointless.
austin: Thoughts about this? Thoughts about how last day was completely wasted and everybody just parked their vote on a townie and completely disappeared and didn't even try to get discussion going?
Jingle, I'm tired of you doing this shit to me. Just fucking stop. I hope you are scum this game, I really do; I won't be depressed once the game ends at least.
On October 08 2012 08:08 gonzaw wrote: Jingle, why were you here right before the deadline and didn't even try to get me lynched, specially when me/Draz/etc started voting for No-lynch and people started to back off Draz?
I was trying most of the day. Don't try and turn this into ME somehow being scummy, when everybody has listened to my reasons and said they still prefer Draz, what was I supposed to do?
I made an analysis about how you are likely town which means I'M NOT ACCUSING YOU STOP OVERREACTING GODDAMIT
It's something odd I noticed and wanted addressed. You know, Keirathi once unvoted Draz, austin once said he'd vote for either me or Draz, there was quite a span of time where you could have used the momentum to lynch me. Considering your behaviour I know you would have tried (although you would have been unsuccessful I suppose). You haven't really tried to get me lynched D3 that much.
On October 08 2012 09:44 strongandbig wrote: Hiro! who would you rather lynch tomorrow ghost or gonzaw and why
gonzaw. He made a statement to the effect that if JingleHell didn't make a case against him that didn't revolve around himself/talk about misrepresentation/stuff like that, that he would consider him scum. JingleHell made a case that was pretty much the stuff gonzaw said he didn't want (and the way gonzaw treated the case also pretty much said gonzaw considered it trash like that), but he still just went with the "JingleHell is bad townie" view, even though what he said before suggested he would do the opposite. Then it's the fact that gonzaw seems to be alternately goading JingleHell into going after him and alternately complaining about how JingleHell keeps coming after about him - in part of his response to me about this point he seemed happy about JingleHell leaving off him for a bit and now he's wondering why JingleHell didn't go full throttle after him on day 3.
Partly also cause he could be either red or black mafia too.
That's a bad reason for thinking I'm scum.
Complaining Jingle only does against me: because it's the only thing he does and it's anti-town as fuck Complaining that Jingle doesn't go against me when he had the chance to: because since it's the only thing he does, and if I assume he's tunneling townie, then that's what he would have done, so him not doing it is odd.
What would be the correct thing to do for Jingle that I wouldn't complain?: Take a step back, stop assuming I'm scum, try to get other people's reasoning instead of just trying to get people to lynch me, maybe even read past games of mine and compare my attitude in them, stop bitching against me and cool down, and contribute about other players and try to find scum in them as well.
When Jingle starts doing that, or just part of that, you won't see me complain at all.
On October 08 2012 11:31 Keirathi wrote: So, I've been sitting here staring at the reply box for like an hour now, trying to wrap my head around this game.
And I cant. I literally just have nothing.
The only person, aside from S&B, that I would even give any sort of town read to right now is HiroPro.
My brain feels like its fried, and I'm pretty damn frustrated.
I've come to the conclusion that I am just a terrible player when it comes to playing town.
Welcome to my world
At least people think you are town and are not tunneling you since D1 or starting to bandwagon against you now; so don't complain that much.
I'll admit not everything you say is "bad", but most of it, or at least what I notice whenever I see your posts is. If it's the stuff about iamperfection, or being "wishy-washy" on D1, or "blue-fishing", yes they are not "completely stupid points", but I explained myself on them.
So, when did you go from not accusing me and wanting to ignore my tunneling, to thinking it's scummy? I assume it's got everything to do with what different people have to say.
Whenever I start doubting my reads I always start thinking "Jingle's actions could come from scum", and of course you tunneling me like that easily makes me think you can be scum, and then I start to doubt you. If all the guys I think are scum flip town, then I have no choice but to rethink my stance on you.
I really want to see you contributing about other players. So far I think you only made like 1 post in the past 72 hours or so about some people you thought could be scum and other than "Draz seems like a VI" or "Hiro is innocuous" I don't see you posting thoughts or reads on anybody at all. That's what makes me doubt my read on you most of the time
You have yet to answer the majority of my complaints. Most of them get ignored, shit-talked, or contradictory responses. Or your classic "Jingle so mean to me".
I think I respond to all of yours. Unless it's those snarky comments you make some times after I make a post which I don't see the point in responding to other than saying "that's wrong".
@Jingle: Nope, I don't remember you posting thorough thoughts of people. I remember you saying that "Mattchew isn't that bad since he got an invite" or something like that, and that "S&B and Kei don't seem like scum"....but I don't consider that "contribution" since you didn't really explain anything about your reads. Oh, I also remember the "I could entertain the ghost-Xfire connection", but again, there's no explanation nor "contribution".
The fact is, you can say what you like about it, but, deliberate or not, you're ignoring a lot of my play this game.
I don't think I'm doing that.
Your opinion of me changes almost every time you post talking about me, frequently depending on who's active in the thread.
Do you have any examples? I don't remember doing that.
Jingle, will you read my past games? Just go to my profile and check whatever you want.
On October 08 2012 13:38 JingleHell wrote: If you go to the effort of posting your past games in your profile, you're probably aware of your meta as a tool, and not above using it to your benefit, so no, I won't check your other games.
...why would you think that?
I post my past games in my profile to spare people the time and effort of asking which games I've been in and manually searching them. It's being considerate not "using meta as a tool".
Keirathi, Austin, basically anyone else, can you confirm for the guy who's skipping inconvenient parts of my filter that I've discussed things besides him, even if pushing him has been my primary thing, due to nearly everything he does seeming somewhat scummy to me?
I never said your filter, I said in the last 72 hours. Basically N2 and D3.
And yes, your opinion of me changes incessantly. It's back and forth between "Probably bad town" and "possibly scum" and "if you don't do X I'll get you lynched" on a rather regular basis. I'm pretty sure there's some supplements that help with short term memory loss, but I forgot what they are.
How's that relevant to who's active in the thread? Yes, I "flip-flop" in the sense that I always try to rethink about my stance on you and take a step back and see if I fucked up with my town read on you or not.
What I don't remember is doing that depending on who's active in the thread which is what you claimed.
I really want to see you contributing about other players. So far I think you only made like 1 post in the past 72 hours or so about some people you thought could be scum and other than "Draz seems like a VI" or "Hiro is innocuous" I don't see you posting thoughts or reads on anybody at all.
"Not contributing on other players" and "Not tunneling the hell out of me" aren't exclusive.
Right now I don't even know if I'd even want ghost lynched.
My gut is going for a austin-Mattchew scum for some reason.
I've already posted about austin (not with specific examples though, but it's kind of hard to find specific instances of what I'm talking about). Matt's activity severly dropped since N1. On D2 the only remarkable thing he did was make a case on S&B and then instantly discard it after he claimed, and on D3 I don't remember him doing anything at all. He's just coasting on the "confirmed town" status the IAM lynch gave him. I'm wary of his "pro-town" behaviour on D1 because I've seen him be "pro-town" on D1 as scum (Can't Believe again), also the fact that he could be legitimately scumhunting for.
Austin, Mattchew, ghost; those are the guys I'd want in the chopping block tomorrow. Like I said I'm less inclined to lynch ghost, because after reading previous games from him I get the gut feeling he's playing like it. Meh, on D4 I'll try to expand on this if possible.
I've repeated this hundred times, and few people answered: Who's Red Scum?
If we decide to make connections between Xfire or Iamp, or see certain behaviour and shit, we need to know which scum team we are looking for. In Liar Game you couldn't just say "lol he is Harimoto, or maybe Yokoya I dunno". I could have been found out by looking at my behaviour taking chaoser into mind, and ET could have been found out by looking at his behaviour taking sandro into account.
My point is that it can also help focus discussion and our thoughts of this game. Maybe thinking of austin as scum is difficult, but thinking of him as RS is not. Maybe (like I did before) it's just a process of elimination: "Matt can't be RS", "Hiro can't be RS", "Player X can't be BS" etc can give you more insight on the situation.
I say this because it seems I'm the only one that's trying (other than some few comments some people made in passing or in 1 post, like ghost did IIRC)
I think I remember you posting about me being either RS or BS and making points in favour of both (or was it someone else?). Mentioning the Xfire thing was one of them, although I think you mentioned some IAM stuff as well.
The point is that I don't think it's enough, specially if we have bad reads and don't discuss them fully (i.e if everybody just assumes ghost is BS and he doesn't flip BS we have no fucking idea what to do next).
For instance, do you think Matt could be BS? Or you think there's a very higher chance either me/ghost is BS that Matt shouldn't be taken into account (for instance).
Same about RS. Do you think maybe the RS bussed IAM when he saw there was too much momentum against him? (i.e if Hiro could be RS). Or if RS Matt would just bus his sole teammate and give 0 fucks about it?
If not, who of the remaining players is most likely RS and why? austin, me, ghost or Jingle? If any of them isn't RS, why is that?
Meh those are questions I'm making generally to all players to be honest, not just you. Although, even if you think Hiro is town you should analyze the possibility of him being RS or BS and see if makes sense or not.
Anyways, good.
So you still think I'm the most likely scum/BS then? I guess there's nothing I can do to change anybody's mind then? :/ I thought being heavily active in a totally "wasted" day and trying to find all scum would be enough, but oh oh well..
Now that we are talking about something I'd like something to add: About austin, the thing I noticed in all if not most of his Can't Believe posts is that almost all of them were much more assertive. He posted way less fluff there as well. He does post fluff every time as town (he does tend to post walls of text when responding, like when he initially responded to tali's case back in D1 in Can't Believe), but his posts seemed more focused there.
...hmm, there are stuff that seem townie though. For instance his unvote of Jingle because of Jingle's vote on Mattchew. He does post lots of explanations, for instance about his suspicions on Keirathi and stuff.....but I don't know if he could have fabricated them as scum or not. Some of his posts are just so fluffy and some seem like filler. Meh I'm not sure, I'll go to sleep and check again in the morning.
austin, what's fucking with my head is the fact that you haven't played as scum yet, so I don't know if you posting gigantic walls of text every 2 seconds like you do right now is something you'd do as scum or if you are just the same townie as always but not that assertive and more confused/lost/less interested
austin, I'd really like you to post exactly what you think about me, and how your read on me changed throughout the game. Because in D1 you were all "gonzaw is like confirmed town" and then last day you were like "yeah there are reasons to lynch gonzaw, maybe we can lynch gonzaw" and I don't remember you ever showing off suspicions of me at all until you somehow agreed to have me lynched..?
These are the 1st posts where you have some suspicion on me
But you don't conclude anything and I thought you just found odd stuff and ignored it later. I don't see any "gonzaw is scum" at all or you showing any suspicion on me.
Hell, one of the things you find "suspicious" (the fishing) you change your mind about it later and actually defend me for it:
On October 06 2012 05:53 austinmcc wrote: Anyone who's scummy on Gonzaw's speculation, look at Can't Believe and also the full-on magic mini where he hydraed. There was speculation in both those games that I found scummy, especially magic, and he was townie in both. I think we need to keep discussing him, look at him for a possible lynch, but he can be a really scummy setup speculator even as town.
And suddenly I'm scum and you want to lynch me apparently? Wtf was that about? 10 or so of your posts before you were defending me against Jingle and telling people that I do scummy speculation as town, and then out of nowhere you agree with all points Jingle made and implicitly accuse me as scum or that I should get lynched or that Draz flippin town may confirm me as scum and stuff like that? You make a post posting your suspicions at me (#1112 I think)....and then you forget about me completely.
What about this?:
On October 06 2012 05:53 austinmcc wrote: Anyone who's scummy on Gonzaw's speculation, look at Can't Believe and also the full-on magic mini where he hydraed. There was speculation in both those games that I found scummy, especially magic, and he was townie in both. I think we need to keep discussing him, look at him for a possible lynch, but he can be a really scummy setup speculator even as town.
Why are you defending me and then immediately after telling people I'm a possible lynch?
Please tell me your thought process on your read of me because I don't understand it. At first you find me like "confirmed town" and shit, then you find "red flags" that I explain but you don't pay attention and ignore later. After Jingle posts his case and shit you point out other points against me....but they are more like pressure than suspicions since you don't show off any suspicion at all against me (you just ask me questions basically). After I explain myself you don't call me out or anything so I assume you forgot about them. Then you even defend myself against Jingle and others, telling Jingle that he's "putting a list of all things player x did and call them scummy" and defending my speculation as town... ...however you call me "possible lynch" at the same time, wtf? After that every time you talk to me it's like you are neutral or null about me, and then immediately after you start discussing me being scum and Draz being town and talking about reasons to lynch me, and then you post suspicions on me when you are talking to Keirathi....and then you completely forget about me after that post.
@to austin: I've already explained countless of times why I think there are 2 and 2. Even if that's not the case, 1-1 it's the minimum amount of scum left; so if I say you are RS and Mattchew is BS it can still be true, even if maybe ghost is BS as well or Jingle is RS as well or shit like that.
I don't contemplate cases of more scum since it contradicts the reads I have and it contradicts the balance of the game IMO. It's a possibility, but it's fucked up (that scum can almost completely control lynches and shit and town has very little numbers). Again, remember that 3-3 imply that there are only 7 townies in the whole game. With that little influence it's almost impossible for town to lead a lynch on their own without the influence of both scum teams. Unless town gets lucky and both scum teams decide to kill each other in the lynches, town is basically fucked up and is misslynched every single day. Without town's lynch power, night saves are useless, town is useless, town loses every single time.
For instance, if the 3-3 scum thing is correct, then tomorrow I'm getting misslynched 100% (the 2-2 remaining scum jump on me, and like the 3 remaining townies can't do anything since they have less numbers, not taking into account if those townies think I'm scum as well); after that town is completely fucked and can't do shit, only die at night and watch as the scum teams fight each other.
Also hey, I guess this means Hiro is my scumbuddy since he has the same conclusion as I do and even shitted on ghost for suggesting 3-3 scum teams.
If you guys think there are like 6 scum remaining, okay then post them. I'll give ghost some credit for doing exactly that (even though he basically didn't explain it).
Also remember that apparently town has no KP roles left As far as I know, Draz was the only town KP role we have, and it was 1-shot.
How the hell can town win in a 7-3-3 or 8-3-2 with 2-3 scum KP like you suggest but no KP of their own? Again, if town can't influence lynches properly, and have no night KP, how do you expect them to win?
I remember that PYP game that was similar, but there town had like 10 KP or something and completely killed both scum teams.
Saying there are 10 scum remaining is easy if you don't make arguments for it. I've made arguments for a 2-2 scum team, and the arguments against it are basically "gonzaw seems like he knows the setup!".
ghost tried to do that...but well you could see it didn't make much sense. At least he tried to do it and utterly failed, which is better than just saying "there are 4 scum remaining!" and not doing anything (yes even if ghost is scum).
On October 09 2012 02:44 gonzaw wrote: Saying there are 10 scum remaining is easy if you don't make arguments for it. I've made arguments for a 2-2 scum team, and the arguments against it are basically "gonzaw seems like he knows the setup!".
ghost tried to do that...but well you could see it didn't make much sense. At least he tried to do it and utterly failed, which is better than just saying "there are 4 scum remaining!" and not doing anything (yes even if ghost is scum).
Actually, there's the best argument at all, which you keep completely ignoring. The OP tells us how scum factional KP is calculated, in a way that suggested at least a 3 person red team. Not Caller game, so, Scum KP = #/2 rounded up suggests 3 red minimum. Wording of Crossfire's post suggested 2 black minimum. I've said this before, I believe twice.
That means we should be looking for, most likely, 5-7 scum.
It's a reasonable deduction that Red only had 3 people, since we have yet to see multiple KPs or, as far as can be spotted, unclaimed saves/vets.
If that's true then we basically lost unless the scum teams go against each other. You are suggesting it's either 4-2-2 or 4-2-1 right now. If both S&B and Kei are town, then maybe they can make 1 or 2 saves tonight, but S&B will die (and thus we can't make more saves), and then scum KP will start rolling in. If it's 4-2-2 town has the same number of players as scum so town lose the power of the lynch basically (again, unless the scum teams go against each other). Again, this is if there are no kills tonight. A 2-2-2 or 3-2-2 D4 is impossible for town to win basically. I could do all the calculations (like I did in the Liar Game) but I'm not in the mood
If S&B and Kei are scum and lied about their power....lol we can lose tonight.
On October 09 2012 03:12 austinmcc wrote: gonzaw. I'll be more explicit if you want me to later on, and give the full thought process of why my read on you has changed. But right now I get this out in case I'm not back by deadline, so here are just two big things that I've been looking at:
(1) the bit about you being sure of the setup
(2) Your progression of reads/votes on Drazerk yesterday. You went from:
voting him to "What if he's town?" to unvoting him because he didn't quite feel right
But then...Drazerk claimed. And snb came in and claimed to have taken damage. Just damage, from a shot that was claimed to go through veteran abilities. After that claim, which directly conflicts with Drazerk's claim (at least in my mind, I know we had discussion about how bodyguard and medics could interact) vote no-lynch.
On October 08 2012 05:11 gonzaw wrote: ##Vote: No Lynch
Just for now, I'm going to make some errands and be back in 1 hour or 2.
snb just refuted Drazerk's claim. You were scummy on Drazerk, then uncertain. In response to snb's post, you ask snb why he's ignoring the thread to get Drazerk lynched...
On October 08 2012 05:07 gonzaw wrote: S&B, before I listen to you on who to lynch, please post your thoughts on everything else that went on in this D3 thread. Like...stuff about me, stuff about Jingle, stuff about ghost and austin, etc. There's plenty of info lying around, why are you ignoring it just to get Draz lynched?
and vote no-lynch.
snb just refuted Drazerk's claim. snb knows that he took damage, from a guy who claims that his shot goes through extra lives. snb isn't "ignoring thread to get Drazerk lynched." snb KNOWS that Drazerk is lying (it just turns out he was lying as town ). Town JUST FOUND SCUM. Drazerk is lying about his claim, barring some third claim of something weird that could explain the redirected shot AND a source for the phantom KP on snb. We have neither of those. Drazerk lying, Drazerk scum is way way way more likely.
But you don't seem to notice that. You want snb's thoughts on the day, want to know why he's ignoring the day in order to get Drazerk lynched. When snb has just found scum. It's like...you don't understand the implications of what just happened. Like D3 was going to be your big time to shine, to unvote Drazerk, find him townie, have a thread presence, and get Drazerk off the hook maybe. Then Drazerk gets CAUGHT and you're still trying to salvage that - what are your thoughts on the day, stop looking at the scum you found, what about all this other stuff? Unless you knew of a reason why Drazerk's shot wouldn't have connected, and chose not to explain it (which also seems un-townie), then how is that your reaction?
On October 08 2012 04:42 gonzaw wrote: Something weird happened on N1, and I can vouch for that (again, regarding my role).
If I told you guys what happened to me you would say "I don't see a scenario that explains what gonzaw is saying, therefore he's lying" as well. Maybe I'm inclined to believe Draz because of that.
Dammit austin read the thread. I knew S&B didn't lie about the shot, he did get shot. S&b coming to the thread didn't do anything to change my mind or anything. My gut feeling that he was town, coupled with all the things he did that didn't make sense from a scum perspective are enough to make me assume something weird happened on N1 where a town Drazerk's shot didn't kill S&B for some reason.
You aren't going on about "TOWN JUST FOUND SCUM!!", so why are you expecting ME to do so?
Is that really enough for you to think I'm scum? The "sure about the setup" and "Drazerk" thing is just soweak.
JH made that post on mattchew. He hasn't unmade that post. Therefore, I'm still convinced he's town
How about the rest of his play? 1 post doesn't exonerate him as scum or town if his play the rest of the game shows otherwise.
Man austin, I don't like that post of yours. It's just lots of fluff. You basically say that Hiro could be anything, that ghost is sure BS because of the Xfire connection and you explain stuff about Matt that's been said 100 times before (would Matt bus his GF/JOAT on D1? Maybe he's black? etc).
Okay, I'm going to uni and won't be around deadline. I wanted to claim right before deadline in case I die, but I guess I can't. Hopefully either you guys are smart enough to see what happened after I flip, or scum don't shoot me.
If I flip, I take it you guys can figure out what happened on N1 without any help. Also, I said I didn't breadcrumb and now I kind of feel bad for not doing so (in case I die). There is a post of mine that's sort of a breadcrumb. If you read it it doesn't seem like it taking into account the context, but the context just happened to be the correct one for my crumb to work. If you guys find that "crumb", I give you one word: ghost (bolded doesn't mean anything, i.e not BS or stuff, it's just emphasis).
Okay, I think my role may be obsolete or something. I think I'll claim. Someone else may make more sense of this situation. On the other hand if this "town bus driver" thing is true I dunno if it'd help. Meh, I'm sure everybody will jump on my ass anyways so I might as well claim all the info I have.
You know what, I think I may also be completely honest with you guys about my role. Mostly because if I'm not it won't really matter once I die. Although I know certain people will try to get me lynched because of it as well.
I'll wait until everybody posts before doing it though.
On October 09 2012 07:40 austinmcc wrote: Just got back in.
Thought I had this afternoon - we don't know if our position swapper or bus driver in this game is town or not, but I'm hoping that's a town role.
IF you've been RBed recently and haven't claimed, you probably should. We've had no RB claims, so mementoss's rat nest seems to have disappeared with him or gone on a spot where someone got lynched and didn't claim RB? But IF we have anyone who knows where the rat's nest is, you ought to claim the location, so that the bus driver can swap people into that slot and play jailkeeper.
Are you going to respond to all those stuff mentioned about your previous post?
On October 08 2012 07:56 gonzaw wrote: Oh fuck if you flip scum I'll feel so retarded
this makes me think gonzaw is scum.
If I was scum I wouldn't know if Draz was town or from the other scum faction. Seriously, how many times was this addressed?
On October 09 2012 03:53 Keirathi wrote: Seriously? That's the best you can do?
Of you are town, literally the best thing you could do right now is make yourself a juicy enough target that you get nk'd. Basically everyone is suspicious of you, and if you are town, then your mislynch probably loses the game for town.
...was that directed at me? One: I couldn't think of any other way to give you guys info (in case I die) without claiming (if I claimed scum would know what to do in response to that). Second: Yeah, scum killing me might be good so all these guys stop going against me. I'll scumhunt until I stop breathing though, and I hope smart/sensible people analyze my play accordingly so my misslynch won't happen (not to completely absolve myself from responsibility if that happens though)
On October 09 2012 08:44 strongandbig wrote: I did not take a hit.
You know, even if you are town I think you should really claim who you target right before the deadline. if you target player X, and you die, and you don't claim who you targeted, there's no way we can know who you could have saved (assuming you can die if your target take 1-2 hits).
Anyways, it's weird how the hell you don't take any hits S&B considering there are 3 targets that can make you take one. Something is wrong here (whether with you or with scum's powers or something).
No because if I claimed my role+name what happened on N1 could have happened again. I.e on N1 the scum or whatever power that did that to me most likely did it accidentally. If I claim at night when they have time to change their actions they can do it to me on purpose. I ran the risk of them figuring things out and doing it on purpose even after I made that post.
I dunno if it has happened more than once though, again considering maybe my power's obsolete or something. Although some things are different than on N1 so I assume it hasn't happened again.
After I claim be sure to check my filter and a lot of things will make more sense (well...I have like 10 pages of filter so check it only if you want to >_> )
EBWOP: 14 pages my bad. Damn, how the hell did I write so much? Last time I checked it was 10. Well at least it's not 14 pages of walls of text like that Magic Mini Mafia.
Okay let's make this fast: I'm waiting for HiroPro to report whatever he needs to report (if something happened to him last night). After that I'll claim.
austin please respond to the Drazerk stuff from late-N3.
Specially that contradiction you made about how everybody was "oh lol Draz is CAUGHT SCUM!" when S&B claimed he wasn't medic saved/whatever, yet you were completely the opposite of that (in fact everybody was the complete opposite of that, I took it that all of us were trying to make sense of the situation and see if it was possible Draz was telling the truth taking into account bus drivers and medic saves and shit).
On October 09 2012 09:49 gonzaw wrote: austin please respond to the Drazerk stuff from late-N3.
Specially that contradiction you made about how everybody was "oh lol Draz is CAUGHT SCUM!" when S&B claimed he wasn't medic saved/whatever, yet you were completely the opposite of that (in fact everybody was the complete opposite of that, I took it that all of us were trying to make sense of the situation and see if it was possible Draz was telling the truth taking into account bus drivers and medic saves and shit).
Apparently I'm an idiot. For two games in a row now, did something similar in Liquid City, calling someone out on something they didn't post.
I thought Keirathi revoted earlier, and that I and others had typed out some stronger reactions. Was so focused on YOUR post right after he claimed, how you just asked snb a question. Turns out, NONE OF US reacted strongly at that point.
HEY EVERYBODY. DISREGARD ME TALKING ABOUT GONZAW REACTING WRONG TO SNB'S CLAIM OF TAKING A HIT.
Okay then, disregard that:....so what does that leave you with then? You still think I'm "the one that looks redder"?
Anyways, can we assume Mat's hit was a RS one? Also I'd lol if Matt is RS, shot someone else who was busdriven with him and shot himself (and is a vet RS or something). Still waiting on ghost/Hiro to see if they were hit/RBed, mostly Hiro.
I don't get this "player list thing". I've seen the OP and the list is always the same :/
For instance I'm 13 at the bottom, Xfire/Nisani are above me and you are the alive guy right above me, and it's been that way all game long. If it's something that's gotta do with your role at least specify because I'm not getting this.
You think the "bus driver" is the guy swapping people in the player list? Which means that if Matt was JKed from the rat den...since nobody swapped his place then it means he was JKed N1 and N2 as well and didn't claim it? (I.e last night he took a hit, and was saved by the rat den which is at position (1)....it also makes sense that Mementos would JK Mattchew on N1 since Matt was super-pro-town-motherfucker on D1).
One thing I don't get is: Once Mementos places the rat den on someone....is that player JKed every night or just the 1st one?
There it states that the player will be jailed for the first time only if his position changes to the one with the rat den It doesn't say anything whether the player will be jailed for the first time only if the rat den is put into his position by Mementos (and not by a bus driver/list swapper).
That can determine if Matt was saved because he's in the rat den or not.
Also meh, since Mementos died I didn't think the player list thing was important :/ Again...specially since nobody claimed anything happening to them at night or anything.
On October 09 2012 10:47 HiroPro wrote: Nothing happened to me. And I'm pretty sure at the beginning of this game I was like 5th on the signup list.
Okay I'm claiming then
If someone has an idea of what I'll claim and doesn't want me to for some reason object now while I'm writing the post. Because I think we seriously need some information because I'm confused as shit regarding this game's mechanics/night actions/etc Also, the only non-lynched guy that claimed was S&B and Kei....and for a themed game that seems kind of like too few claims/info given to town.
Yes, I have a "simple" ability (it's my only ability), which is why I wasn't thinking Draz's claim was "obviously simple therefore fake-claim" (I'll get to the other part of my role later). It also has flavour about rail tracks and shit but that's irrelevant.
These are my night actions and results:
On N1 I tracked Nisani:
*drumroll for unbelievable bullshit*
Results:Nisani visited Mementos On N2 I tracked ghost:
Results:ghost visited HiroPro On N3 I tracked austin:
Results:austin visited HiroPro About N1 Action: Yep, once Nisani claimed he only visited Mattchew and flipped town I kind of shut down and didn't know wtf to think anymore. I thought there was a "tracker framer" out there that framed Nisani on N1 (although I've never seen a role like that in my entire life), but now maybe there could be some shenanigans with bus drivers and list stuff that could explain it. The other option is that my role is obsolete in a way (like Paranoid Cops are obsolete roles for DTs).
Don't ask me about the N1 check since I have no freaking idea of what happened. Also you can see it wouldn't have "saved Drazerk" if I had claimed it last day (it's just "something fucked up that happened to me", but it was completely unrelated to Draz)
About N2 Action: Started to think ghost may be scum so tracked him. I actually went with Hiro first (had some strange feelings of him on N2 and wanted to either confirm or discard him as scum since he would have been harder to read than ghost and wouldn't have been a point of discussion in later days in my opinion), but after thinking a little bit more I decided to go with ghost again. I don't really remember what made me change my mind so don't ask.
Yep, ghost visited Hiro, which is what made me think he wasn't RS at all (since Xfire died). That's the reason I never mentioned ghost as RS and even posted bullshit reasons why he wasn't RS. Now with bus driver Xfire and Hiro could have been bussed so maybe he could be RS, which is a huge deal (it doesn't confirm ghost as non-RS anymore). (Pre-Edit: Debunked by Mattchew claim) Also my role could be obsolete again so I started doubting it, specially after Hiro didn't claim anything at all (my "crumb" I mentioned was this post and the "context" I mentioned was me waiting for Hiro to respond to this post. When I made that post I intended it both ways ,for him to respond to my post and to see if he would claim something was done on him). When I got that check I started thinking that maybe ghost was BS and RBed or did something weird to Hiro...but meh Hiro didn't claim anything so I didn't really know what to think of it. I started thinking maybe ghost had some weird BS ability and used it on Hiro, which was possible which is why I went against him as BS Disclaimer: Ignore this post where I put ghost as RS since I forgot about my report on him when I made that post >_> <_<
Considering ghost and Hiro's position swapped on N2...I think it's possible ghost did something that made him swap his position with Hiro. Don't know if that's a town or scum power though....? Anyway food for thought
About N3 Action: As you know I was starting to get suspicious of austin as RS. I wanted to be sure by tracking him and see him visited a dead guy or someone that claimed shot. That didn't happen though, he visited Hiro. Dunno why though. At first it made me think he was either not RS or that my reports were obsolete...but after that thing about the list positions and bus driving thing austin mentioned I didn't really know (in my mind the possibility of austin shooting Hiro who was bussed with Mattchew was possible after that point...but I wanted to wait for Hiro to claim if maybe he was notified of something). Again, in case austin was BS and had a weird ability I wanted to see if Hiro would claim anything weird happening to him.
Anyways, that's the info. Seems Matt claimed as well, will speculate with that but in another post (this one is the claim post). What about the "other" part of your role? Yeah...I doubt you guys will like this one.
As you know...Wheatly is kind of a dick and goes homicidal at points. Well I'm kind of like that: I'm a traitor survivor. If both GlaDOS and Chell die, then I become a "traitor survivor". Traitor because I start supporting scum, survivor because I win with both scum and town. How does it work? Once I'm "traitor survivor" if Aperture Science members win and I'm alive, I win with them. Since I'm "survivor" I can still win with town if that situation arises. Basically, if that "TS" condition is met, then I become a "traitor" in the sense that if there are 2 RS and 2 townies other than me, I can choose to win with RS by lynching another townie for instance. Just like any traitor role. This is also why I mentioned Chell/Wheatly in the "other town role names"...since those were the ones in my role PM and I didn't know any others >_>
Why am I telling you guys this?
I don't care about the "traitor" part and want to win as town. I want to scumhunt, catch scum and watch them burn, I don't want to be a sissy and take an easy way out by being "bad town" and then letting scum win (which also I doubt would have happened, I would have gotten misslynched before that happened or scum may have shot me). Since I want town to win, I want them to have all the information as possible and not hide anything from them. Why would claiming this part of my role be important to town? Well, mostly because : -It may explain some stuff from my behaviour and town would like that explained. If I didn't claim this they may think that behaviour of mine is scummy and comes from a scum perspective and it would hinder town. For instance, at parts I kind of wanted to kill BS first and focus on them just in case I could "secure" my win with either town or RS. I think it was by the time I FoSed ghost as BS and started to think about the report I got from him. However later I figured out "Hey, I want to win with town. Even if I want to "secure" my win...if we lynch BS and let RS use their factional KP and shit town may lose, so I may as well drop the subject and focus on lynching RS". It's also why I wanted a mass-role-claim in a way (apart from wanting to see Draz's role and figure this setup up). I wanted Chell to claim and her to die, so again I could "secure" the win. When GlaDOS was lynched on D1 I was so happy lol, like "lol maybe Chell dies on N1 and I can coast through the entire game and win no matter what" or something.
-If there's a role out there that checks this sort of thing, once I'm outted I'm completely fucked and town is completely fucked.
Since it was entirely possible I'm getting lynched today, or some day....why would hiding that help me? Or rather, why would even try to achieve that alternate win-condition help me? Remember, I can only win as scum in that alternate win condition if I'm still alive when they win. If I'm misslynched/die that's completely useless and can't win with scum at all.
Claiming this can give me more credibility as town, maybe finally convince people I could be town and so avoid my misslynch. Why would it give me more credibility? Because instead of trying to pursue an anti-town win condition I'm revealing it to town and telling everybody I won't pursue it.
Let's face it. If I claim Wheatly and don't claim anything homicidal or anti-town you guys would instantly lynch me for it because I'm fake-claiming or hiding information from town
In this post I mention something like that as well:
On October 09 2012 08:44 gonzaw wrote: You know what, I think I may also be completely honest with you guys about my role. Mostly because if I'm not it won't really matter once I die. Although I know certain people will try to get me lynched because of it as well.
Also yeah, I know some people may say "Kill him now so he doesn't side with scum later!". That may be true, but remember: It's better to lynch scum than lynch a traitor. Specially a traitor that hasn't been converted to traitor yet and is still town and as long as Chell is alive for the rest of the game will be 100% town...and even if Chell is dead he'll still be town and try to get town to win by killing all scum.
I won't decide to win with RS, why? Because: To win with RS and go "anti-town", it needs to be LYLO with RS. If that happens...I already won, so why the hell would I choose to win with scum instead of legitimately scumhunting and become Town MVP or some shit? Also I can't do funny stuff since you guys can lynch me any time in LYLO as well (specially since people will start screaming "He fake-claimed traitor all along and is actually scum!", which of course the real RS will jump over and get me lynched, meaning I'd lose in an unloseable situation).
Also: even though I said I wanted Chell to die before, right now I want Chell to live Why? Because before nobody knew about this alternate win-con from me. If Chell dies silently I can still play normally and nothing happens. Town doesn't know I'm a traitor, and scum doesn't know I'm a traitor. But now once Chell dies everybody will know I'm a traitor and that can fuck things up for town.
Disclaimer: I assume Chell is a town role. I mean, it's possible it's RS or even BS and all...but I don't really believe that. Because of that I'd like Keirathi/S&B to save Chell whenever she claims or whoever you think she is.. Explaining my behaviour: Okay, I'm going to post quotes/posts from some of my posts that are relevant to my role. Why? Because people will ask me about them anyway and they will post them anyway and we will waste time with people posting more and more as they find them in my filter. Preventing that situation I'll explain all of them here.
On October 08 2012 04:46 gonzaw wrote: I also wanted to try something else before claiming...but I don't know if I can pull it off now
What I wanted to do was like accuse ghost of being scum and saying I was a DT and had a red check on them. Then I see what he claimed and who he claimed he targeted. If he claimed something like "I'm a watcher and I watched Keirathi" then I would know he's lying since he visited Hiropro and not Keirathi. I didn't try it now since it would obviously not work (also planned doing it on austin on N·...but again I think it would have been futile and maybe would have gotten me lynched for fake-claiming).
On October 08 2012 03:43 gonzaw wrote: Okay, about the "fishing": You guys will understand later when I claim. There's a reason I'm "fishing": I want to know more about the setup (I've already said this and it's not a lie). Why? Well because my role is confusing the hell out of me and I don't know wtf is happening (both with my role and the lack of shit that happens each night). Remember I was VT in can't believe. I also didn't know you both were masons though :/ I mean...I didn't know who the remaining mason was even after you flipped >_> (I had an idea it was scib, but with him not claiming I wouldn't really know)
I was "fishing" for night actions and shit early D2 (here) . When I got that report, I first of all wanted to know if maybe Nisani was a vig who shot Mementos. That is why I asked "Did a vig shoot someone?" I don't quite remember why I was so interested in the JK and RB. Maybe it was the fact that Mementos died and he was the jailer, and I saw Nisani visit Mementos. Maybe I just wanted to know more about the setup. Don't really remember, sorry. The 2nd thing that crossed my mind was that maybe Nisani was a DT/tracker/watcher and visited Mementos. Sadly this couldn't really be verifiable until he claimed, although that's what I was thinking when I made these posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372174¤tpage=31#611 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372174¤tpage=31#613
If Nisani claimed he was DT or something and visited Mementos last night...my read of him would have crumbled basically (since it'd take great luck for scum to get that fake-claim right). lol when I was reading the thread once I got back and saw he claimed he visited Mattchew I was like "Fuck yeah! He's confirmed scum baby I knew it!". lol I didn't expect what was going to happen once I saw the flip >_>
It's also why maybe my case on S&B seemed "stronger" yet I decided to get Nisani lynched instead (here). I also thought my S&B case was a little bit stronger....but then the "maybe he's legitimately busy" thing haunted my mind and I couldn't ignore the "incriminating check" I had on Nisani...specially after he didn't claim he vig-shot Mementos.
About the blue-fishing: Again I mostly wanted to see wtf happened on N1 (see if maybe a townie got other info about it). I also wanted ghost to claim here to check the same thing I wanted from Nisani (see if he'd claim visiting someone that wasn't Hiro). Considering the Nisani thing though (he was town, claimed he visited someone and I saw he visited someone else) I didn't push it far since I didn't really know if it was worth it. I.e if ghost claimed visiting someone else...would it mean he was scum or maybe whatever happened with Nisani happened again?
I was mindfucked ever since N2 about the setup and I wanted to know as much as I could to make sense of what happened...and to know if I could trust my N2 (and N3 now) checks and see what they represented.
I think I explained all the important parts of my play that had to do with my role/actions. Maybe I've missed one or two though. Yes, this may be a lot of info to digest (maybe not) so take your while reading it. I'm going to spend some time analyzing Matt's claim with the info I have and I presented here. Also isn't this the most awesome claim post or what?
1)I tracked austin last night, and he visited HiroPro 2)Mattchew bussed Keirathi and HiroPro last night 3) (This was confirmed to me by Greymist a little while ago) If I track Player X who visits Player Y, and a busdriver drives Player Y with Player Z, then my tracking result will be "Player X visited Player Z"
Conclusion: Austin visited Keirathi last night, Matt bussed Kei with HiroPro, so austin ended up visiting HiroPro last night.
Hiro didn't claim anything weird happening to him though...so it couldn't have been a "harmful visit". Meh, maybe austin is town (i.e he didn't visit Matt nor anybody that was bussed with Matt or something like that). Although I wonder why he'd visit Kei in the first place. Maybe he's another medic or something. Like I said before...I don't really know if him claiming that would benefit us or not (if he is indeed a super-powerful town role that will get outed), but I dunno, you guys decide. (also this is easily verifiable by austin claiming who he visited)
Also this is assuming Matt is telling the truth...
..that's a completely different matter. Hell, even if he's telling the truth I don't know if it exonerates him from his play this game. It's possible a bus driver is either BS or RS as well (maybe not RS knowing what we know of Matt). If he's Chell (likely)...then that's another story. Although I don't really want him to claim Chell and let scum WIFOM about it.
Okay let the questions come. I know this may mind-fuck some of you or enrage others or just reassert my scumminess to others.
Considering all this...I'm kind of blank right now, I don't really know who to lynch anymore (if austin is townie who didn't shoot Mattchew and Mattchew is town bus driver).
I guess we can lynch ghost? Again I dunno since if I believe my report he isn't RS. I think I'll wait to see if some other info arises that may incriminate someone. Somebody is bound to have some information, it's freaking D4.
On October 09 2012 12:41 Mattchew wrote: also, i don't believe that even you could come up with all of that as scum so yeah i believe it
I always envy those scum guys that have such an imagination to claim the stuff they do. I don't know how they do it I never fake-claimed blue in my scum life...meh it's just not my thing.
On October 09 2012 12:41 Mattchew wrote: also, i don't believe that even you could come up with all of that as scum so yeah i believe it
I always envy those scum guys that have such an imagination to claim the stuff they do. I don't know how they do it I never fake-claimed blue in my scum life...meh it's just not my thing.
I fake claimed being roleblocked in my only scum game. But I also shot down prplhz's incessant desire to claim Cop because it really is a super hard thing to pull off.
However, as someone else pointed out to me on day 2 when I started defending S&B before I claimed, its canon for scum in super-themed games like this to be given fake claims.
Yeah. If I was scum I think I would have asked for a safe-claim this game (always do...even though hosts don't give me any most of the time ) I wouldn't really have the time or effort to fake-breadcrumb and conceive very weird situations and reports/checks/stuff as scum though, it's just too tiring and most of the time people that claim weird shit get lynched anyways so why even try? (I'm not good at "cause chaos" thingy either to be honest, which is another reason to claim that stuff as scum)
Does someone have anything else to say? Does someone know why the hell my N1 report was fucked up or is it just some thing scum did?
I'm still worried about ghost visiting Hiro and swapping positions....although if that's his sole role it doesn't make much sense :/ (it fits more in Death Factory mafia not here >_> ).
Well Hiro, seems like you are the popular kid in this game everybody visits you every night. Mattchew, I'd like your explanation on these:
n1 i bussed draz and ghost cause I thought ghost might be shot for the amount iamperf went at him and wanted draz dead
Why the hell would ghost get shot? How about...I dunno Xfire which you yourself said was basically confirmed town because of hammering IAMP? How about Hiro who was "pretty much town" for the same reason?
Also why Drazerk out of everybody? How about Keirathi who you even speculated to last-minute switch late-D1?
Damn, you don't really write in night-phases at all so it's impossible to check if what you are saying is true or not :/
n2 i bussed gonzaw and keirathi trying to get gonzaw shot cause I thought theres a chance of him being scum
Why? Why didn't you bus keirathi and maybe Drazerk or ghost? Why did you think there was a chance of me being scum?
On October 05 2012 01:52 Mattchew wrote: gonzaw how do you know the numbers of the scum team?
On October 05 2012 07:17 Mattchew wrote: i am running out of possible scum
gonzaw looks like a decent lynch maybe hiro pro?
These are the only quotes where I remember you mentioning me in a "scummy" way, but you explain nothing at all anyways.
Oh, the "Hiro is scum" explanation would also be welcomed.
austin, so do you know who you visisted on N1 and N2? Meh, I guess that role makes sense. Doesn't bring quite a lot of information into the table though, specially about your alignment/or if it's your actual role (even though you "breadcrumbed" by not voting Kei first and that "wool" comment).
So...Hiro/Jingle/ghost are the only ones that haven't claimed yet, and we haven't had conflicting reports yet, so one could assume all of us claimed our own roles and didn't fake-claim (whether those roles are from one alignment or not it's another question). I'd want ghost to claim to explain the N2 shenanigans. I'd want Hiro and Jingle to claim just to complete the massclaim and not let any of them just stand there hiding while everybody else claimed if one of them is scum, or if they have some new information to give us. Other than that I don't see why they should claim though.
Also, can someone please claim if they are in a rat den? Matt can bus guys there for protection or at least Kei/S&B don't waste their saves on you since you are jailed. I don't know if it would just be better for Matt to claim Chell once and for all and have Keirathi/S&B target him each night so he's 100% safe. Then right before the deadline Matt claims his targets and why he chose them (so at least we can have some explanation for them), specially why he chose his "scum" target (i.e the guy we want to bus a bullet into) and why he chose his "victim" target (i.e the guy that would have gotten shot initialy) if we want him to bus scum with town. Hey Jingle, am I town now? Or am I a super mastermind scum who elaborated this complicated scheme since D2 so town would so easily fall into my trap MWAHAHAHAHAA ? Also, since my win-con and shit is dependant on other people's role names...do you guys think some BS/RS/maybe 3rd party is also dependant on people's role names?
Also I wonder how the hell Drazerk figured this out:
On October 05 2012 02:10 Drazerk wrote: There are roles out there that kill people based on role names
I wondered if he had something similar to me in his role PM or had a DT ability that checked those things (or his role just warned him of that). I forgot about it later though
What if on N1 the list position changed and Matt went into a rat den, and somehow Keirathi's ability went into Mattchew and un-RBed him (therefore Matt didn't get notified he was RBed)?
Wait no, Nisani watched Matt and nobody visited him.... Hell if I know...maybe Matt lied?
(3) Light Bridge: You place a light bridge in the test chamber, giving the illusion that the test will be easier to solve. The subject will not be told they were roleblocked this night.
IAMP was dead D1, he couldn't have used that ability (and I suppose that's the only ability like that in the game)
I also thought it was possible Nisani was actually driven with Mementos/Mattchew, so he actually protected Mementos and got nobody visited him, which is why I tracked him to Mementos... ...then again the only bus driver seems to be Matt that didn't claim that, plus if Nisani protected Mementos he wouldn't have been killed and he would have seen scum visiting Mem....so no that doesn't make sense either
Assuming Matt's hit was RS austin couldn't have been targeted him anyways. Also as long as all actual claims are true, ghost isn't RS either.
Who the hell is RS then? Hiro/Jingle? Unless we try to get paranoid about you/S&B or get into WIFOM land about Matt (or if I get accused again like usual).
Is it possible there's another "traitor" that wins with Black Mesa instead? If any of you is townie and has this alternate win condition please claim it.
Also, this is another reason why I didn't believe the "3-3 scum team"... I mean, 6 scum plus 1 or more smie-traitors? That's basically unwinnable for town.
Granted JH's claim is too "safe" to claim as well.
Well, I can track him tonight and if he doesn't visit austin (the guy below him in the player list) he's lying. It's possible that as BH/RS he'd have another "harmless" ability and would target austin for that reason though
For instance Matt, there've been games where scum were in fact bus drivers and claimed town bus drivers (SSBM was one of them I think), so claiming alone doesn't absolve you.
Again, if you claim Chell at least we'll be like 99% sure you are not RS (flavour-wise, and also because my alternate win condition wouldn't make any sense "Kill all the RS scum team, once you do that you can win with the RS scum team!") and 80% sure you are town (again barring the possibility of Chell being recruited to BS or some shit like that).
If you don't want to claim Chell or claim something else prove your innocence the old-fashioned way: contribute and do shit.
On October 10 2012 01:42 JingleHell wrote: Well, since this seems to be happening, I'm Rick, The Adventure Core! I can go visit the person directly below me on the list at night, doing nothing, but avoiding KP directed at me.
That's why I've been pushy and hostile (and it looks like I've been vindicated about Gonzaw having an anti-town wincon, so I wasn't so far off with the primary target of that path). I was hoping to make scum try to hit me and waste their KP. That's also why I waited so long to claim, I wanted to be very sure it was happening en masse before giving that one up.
And no, my role doesn't make the other person get hit, it just gets me out of harms way. I've received no notifications of failed hits on me, but I don't know if I would since I'm actively avoiding the KP, rather than having it hit me and fail.
So...you're a permanent Bulletproof Townie, as long as there is someone below you in the player list? :o
I'm only bulletproof IF the person below me is alive to visit. Also, I assume I can be tracked there since I'm visiting them, which has a nasty ability to backfire. As to that being good for black scum, I can't even imagine my role being balanced that way, since the scum team's wincons seem to require working at cross purposes, putting red in a position where they can only kill a rival by forcing a lynch seems risky, especially with a role that would reveal that they had no other choice. Anyone who pushed it would promptly be under scrutiny.
That would be an "I win" button for black.
Also, if we have a vigi with bullets, confirming me tonight wouldn't be so bad.
I repeat the question: Am I still scum or not Jingle?
I don't really like these lack of information roles that have been claimed (i.e they don't give any direct info), like austin's or Jingle's. It's quite possible one of them is a fake-claim....if we don't find any contradictory information with all the remaining claims (which would indicate that the people that claimed they had info most likely didn't fake-claimed).
Anyways....dayum it's time to use logic! Hmm, where to start? I'll try to think about all these shit and see if I can figure out some fake-claim or what actually happened or what scum's abilities they have
In the meantime:
##Vote: ghost
Player list swapper that's not Chell, hasn't claimed yet and hasn't participated in the thread at all. Until he claims, vote goes on him.
On October 10 2012 04:06 HiroPro wrote: I'm the Discouragement Redirection Cube. I can pick a target and a random action that targets me at night will get redirected onto the target. I picked nisani n1, gonzaw n2, and no one on n3 (figured I would definitely get protection from keirathi).
If this is true then then Hiro and ghost's swap is completely irrelevant (at all I would have been swapped with ghost).
Hmm, Hiro, can you post explanations on why you chose those targets?
On October 10 2012 04:42 austinmcc wrote: Oh ghoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooost.
Would you like to claim? If everyone is being truthful, you used something on HiroPro N2. And HiroPro redirected to Gonzaw N2, so barring funny business, your action should have actually ... taken place on Gonzaw?
HiroPro/Gonzaw, do either of you know how the tracking would come out in that situation?
I've only asked what happens when my targets/me/my targets visitors are bussed. I think my tracking report doesn't change at all whethe ghost's ability is done on me because Hiro redirected it or if ghost used it on me directly.
Again, it depends on what ghost's ability is which can fuck my report (if he has a "fucks this person's checks" role) Actually, if that role visited Hiro it's possible it's ghost didn't visit Hiro at all (so my report on ghost is fucked).
On October 10 2012 02:17 Mattchew wrote: yeah im chell
Okay
Mattchew is 92.5% not an Aperture Science Member Take note of that
You can still be black considering the effort you've been putting into this game :/ But meh we have better things to take care of
On October 10 2012 02:24 Mattchew wrote: also, im a vet + bus driver so that shot wasn't protected against me. I didn't even get notice that i was shot just that i should be careful because i don't have an extra life anymore
and gonzaw those questions are bad and loaded. draz was playing like (insert whatever you want here) and ghost was all the attention of iamperf (which i never noticed but he didn't vote for him)... I didn't know there was 2 scum teams so i figured he would be a townie that was likely unprotected but hard to lynch.
Again, what about Hiro/Xfire? You think they were too "obvious" pro-town targets that scum wouldn't try to shoot them (in fear of medic saves)? Meh nevermind, that's probably the answer you'll give me.
You and ghost swapped on the player list on N2 I believe. That night I got that ghost visited you. I concluded that ghost visited you to swap your position in the player list with him.
But if ghost actually visited me, that couldn't have happened.
Wait Hiro: Are medic/bodyguard saves affected by your ability? E.g could you have protected Nisani on N1 when S&B protected you?
Well yeah, but the N2 and N3 reports haven't been contradicted yet. If what austin tells me is true, then my report could have been anything in the world and we couldn't confirm it (since austin doesn't know who he visits).
I thought Nisani was framed....since that's a very specific way my report failed. It showed Nisani visiting a dead guy, that's an incriminatory report, hence it being result of a framer. ghost's report wasn't incriminatory at all (you didn't claim you were shot for instance), so why would it be the same ability?
I.e if Nisani's report was deliberately changed so it would incriminate him, then my 2nd check wasn't. Either only the 1st report was "framed" or what was used on me was a "report randomizer" and on N1 it coincidentally showed Nisani visiting Mementos
Again read the post above. If all my reports are incriminating it doesn't really make sense since ghost/austin visiting Hiro isn't incriminating at all (Hiro never claimed he was hit or RBed or anything). That's not being "insane" (I also never saw an "insane tracker" before).
Either the 1st one was the incriminating one (in which case it's most likely because someone, possibly scum, used an ability on me), or they are all random (not incriminatory or anything). Either Nisani was framed I think (a tracker framer...which is odd), or maybe Nisani did visit Mementos but didn't save him and didn't notice for some reason?
Okay, one thing I noticed was that Hiro targeted me on N2, but Matt bussed me with Kei. If both tell the truth, then a random ability used on Hiro on N2 was used on Keiarthi.
If my report on ghost is correct, that means whatever ghost did he did it on Keirathi. There are also some things we can discard. For instance Xfire was never visited so his role has nothing to do with anything in the game (this is because he never used his KP which he would have, and this is because the player list wasn't shifted 1 place down on N1...right? >_>)
I still don't know what happened with Mementos' jail. Unless someone claims I have to either assume it was used on scum or he didn't do it at all.
Nah, there are too many variables to try an make any sensible time-line of night actions, specially since almost all night actions claimed are defensive and not pro-active, other than Draz' shot on S&B (which was already addressed).
Also lol, since S&B targeted Keirathi on N2, and Matt bussed me on N2...then I was protected by medics on both N1 and N2 lololol.
Also we can safely assume that the swap role is either from ghost or from scum. No portal powers were claimed though, so does that prove that either austin is lying or ghost or scum have the power to make portals?
Again the portals may have to do with the player swap....but then again what about Chell/Matt? Wouldn't he be the one able to use portals? If my report is correct though...it makes more sense the player swap is a scum role though, since ghost swapping himself with Hiro by visiting Keirathi doesn't make sense (unless Matt is lying about bussing Hiro+Kei). So, let's try and make some conclusions Assuming that to perform an ability that targets a player it is necessary to visit that player, and assuming Matt bussed Kei+Hiro in N2, and assuming my report on ghost from N2 is correct, then ghost can't possibly be responsible for the player swapping of himself and Hiro on N2. Nobody else claimed doing so, and only scum would have the need to hide that info. Therefore the player swapping was made by one scum and his power, and this scum is not Hiro. Considering Xfire's role had to do with roleSwapping but GlaDOS didn't...maybe we could assume this was the work of BS and not RS? In which case BS swapped players and ghost is not BS.
If we assume this, and specially the part where my N2 report on ghost is correct, it means ghost is town (again, if the player swapping was made by BS). It's still possible ghost is BS and the player swap was made by the remaining RS.
Hmm, just in case ##Unvote
What can we conclude from this? One of these: 1)The player swapping was made by one scum and his power, and this scum is not ghost. 2)It is possible to target a player without visiting him 3)Mattchew is lying about bussing Keirathi and Hiro on N2 4)My N2 report on ghost is incorrect
1)Basically means that list swap is a scum power and this scum is not ghost. And again ghost is not RS so ghost would most likely be town 2)I don't think this is possible, even for scum powers. If a scum power is "swap the positions of player Y and player X" then I believe he visits both players. Just as if I track Matt he'd visit the guys he busses, or how if someone tracked me they'd see me tracking my tracked guy. Hmm, might as well ask Greymist and see if this is true 3)Then Matt is scum, easy 4)It's possible, but then fuck my role is useless If this is the case I still don't know if it's something that only has to do with my role, or if my targets are always framed (or from your POV I could be scum lying). Hmm, other than maybe Keirathi not being in the rat den because of austin's claim...I don't really know what other thing to conclude.
We can do this I guess: Assuming my N1 and N2 checks are correct, neither ghost nor austin can be RS
Can't really conclude anything with Kei's and S&B's saves since they didn't really save anybody. Kei, S&B, can you guys make a list of all the guys you targeted in this game? I'm missing some of them and can't find them.
Anyways why do you guys even bother breadcrumbing your role? Just don't breadcrumb anything and claim you are an anti-town traitor. You'll be instantly considered confirmed town....
...although seriously I didn't think everybody would believe my claim >_> I guess I didn't really got my hopes up with you guys :/ Anyways...yeah I think we should have paid more attention to the player list Dammit austin! That was YOUR job!!! > : ( (lol jk )
Meh...this game is so weird, it feels like if there were no remaining scum or something. I guess we can NL today and maybe use our abilities (mine and Matt's for instance) to determine the veracity of other people's claims?
If Matt was responsible for the ghost/Hiro swapping...whether he's town or scum he'd have bussed someone on N1 and last night so there would have been 3 swaps total...not just 1.
What if Jingle is an Aperture Science Framer?. He can choose what check/report can come from a player he chooses. On N1 he chose Nisani and made it so he visited Mementos (if there is a framer role that wanted to frame Nisani it has to be from RS since BS didn't know Mementos would get killed due to their lack of factional KP and I think almost any KP whasoever), which explains my report.
Now, he claims he's "bulletproof guy that always visits austin at night to hide". He claimed this after I claimed tracker. If he's RS, he knows that I can track him at night now (and be un-RBeable and maybe bulletproof if Kei/S&B target me), so he could get instantly caught. To survive my reports he'd need to not shoot at night....which would be weird and still scummy if I say I'm going to track him. Therefore he claimed a role that only visits austin at night and if I see him visit austin at night it "confirms" him as town if we believe what he told us... ...but what if he frames himself every night from now on and makes any track report from him say he visited austin? Even if he chooses to shoot someone unrelated at night (maybe Keirathi for instance), my track report will say he visited austin, therefore "confirming" his role, and of course justifying him living so long at night (i.e scum not killing him) since "scum wouldn't shoot a bulletproof hider".
Didn't really have a scum read on Jingle but fuck scumreads right now they didn't do me any good until now. Let's speculate! What do you guys think of this possibility?
Granted austin could do something similar with a framer ability (i.e frame himself so he visits an "unrelated" target, someone different than who he shoots).
Meh, seems improbable that a framer can frame himself, but really...what other explanation could there be for my N1 report and the lack of "scummy" claims so far? (i.e claims that can be refuted, etc)
I don't really like the fact that he never mentioned me at all when he came here and claimed and shit (it would certainly be a huge deal for him, since from his POV it's scum fake-claiming to confuse town and create chaos). I even colored my post with **** blue asterisks and shit, it was impossible to miss even if he skimmed the thread.
On October 10 2012 10:55 gonzaw wrote: Anyways why do you guys even bother breadcrumbing your role? Just don't breadcrumb anything and claim you are an anti-town traitor. You'll be instantly considered confirmed town....
...although seriously I didn't think everybody would believe my claim >_> I guess I didn't really got my hopes up with you guys :/
I haven't breadcrumbed my role at all
Also, I'm not entirely convinced by your claim. Some key things stick out to me: how much you talked about how hard it would be for you to fake claim as scum, and the way you kept putting your claim of (okay i'm going to claim, wait no i'm not, well maybe i'll claim later, but i have a plan now, etcetc). I will say that your claim, if fake, took an extreme amount of effort, which makes it pretty unlikely, but I haven't completely ruled it out yet. Especially if you+matt are somehow a scum-team and coordinated the Chell/Traitor thing.
If I did that as scum then I'd be very desperately for a win and I'd be spending 23 hours a day in this game lurking and planning and shit.
...in that case I'd beg you to make me win this game at least out of pity That includes believing my claim....so please believe my claim even out of pity if I'm scum!!
On October 10 2012 10:55 gonzaw wrote: How about we let him claim that lol
Anyways why do you guys even bother breadcrumbing your role? Just don't breadcrumb anything and claim you are an anti-town traitor. You'll be instantly considered confirmed town....
...although seriously I didn't think everybody would believe my claim >_> I guess I didn't really got my hopes up with you guys :/ Anyways...yeah I think we should have paid more attention to the player list Dammit austin! That was YOUR job!!! > : ( (lol jk )
Meh...this game is so weird, it feels like if there were no remaining scum or something. I guess we can NL today and maybe use our abilities (mine and Matt's for instance) to determine the veracity of other people's claims?
I don't like the idea of no lynching. At the very least, I'd like to lynch ghost.
He went from relatively inactive early to just...not doing ANYTHING after crossfire flipped. I like the connections in his and Crossfire's filter to put him at black scum. Being black scum fits his activity post-crossfire flip - he needs to wait things out, maybe has no KP, and knows that he's not the preferred target of town and maybe not the preferred target of red scum (since he's not really threatening them).
Heck, if he's red scum the best play is the same thing. He kind of looks like black scum, his participation fits the black scum mold, so he just sits back and pretends to be black scum. Only black scum would know that he's not with them, and so they'd be the only ones to call him out (Except fo me).
At the very least, if we're not going to get ANYTHING out of alive ghost, I'd like to see his actual role when he flips and see if it sheds any light on the claims that came out today and whether anyone is lying.
It's very ironic but here it goes: What if there are more scum or something and we end up losing with another misslynch?
You know, you guys where the ones buggering me so much about there being a bajillion scum remaining...which by your estimations this would be LYLO/MYLO of sorts, which means we can't really afford a misslynch.
Joking aside (there are no 3-3 scum teams), maybe you are right. He has to come and vote or be modkilled. If he as much as votes without claiming and explaining his N2 action and shit he gets insta-lynched (by policy at least), so this issue will be solved today, one way or the other.
However, if my previous conclusion is correct ghost is not the position swapper who is scum and is not RS. If he's BS then the RS would be the position swapper...which means the RS can't be Framer which means my N1 report goes unexplained. Contradiction perhaps...? So that makes him being BS unlikely. Maybe I just utterly failed with my conclusion though.
Also: What do you guys think about that Jingle speculation?
On October 10 2012 11:10 gonzaw wrote: Also: What do you guys think about that Jingle speculation?
That you're completely reaching and it has 0 basis in fact. Just randomly throwing out a theory with 0 evidence to back it up. What I mean is, nothing in your explanation explained why the framer would be JingleHell. His name was just tacked on there.
Someone fake-claimed, that's a fact (if we assume there's at least 1 RS and 1 BS left...even if ghost is one of them). Who is it? Well, we can check claims.
If there's a claim that seems bullshit then it's probably a fake-claim and the guy is scum (again, 0 scumhunting here...but at least my head doesn't hurt by thinking about it).
Now, if you can say "JH's claim is BS" without any other "evidence", then I guess I might as well provide circumstantial evidence of that by explaining my N1 report and his motivation for claiming what he did as scum.
Again....try to find the fake-claim between all these claims and use it to explain everything that happened this game. It's hard isn't it? My "theory with 0 evidence" is (as far as I believe) the best one (well actually the one I bothered thinking about and sprouted into my head) that can explain most of the shit that happened this game and why the scum that fake-claimed fake-claimed what he did. It's not "evidence" at all...but again, what's the alternative?
Feel free to post evidence against it (like Jingle posting something and it contradicting what I said) and discuss it.
Also it kind of felt like a "Omg it all makes sense!" moment for me, even though I had no evidence. Just like in those Phoenix Wright games.
On October 10 2012 11:22 HiroPro wrote: I already explained how I decided my actions, gonzaw - go back and read.
why do you think jingle is lying about his claim austin? all I see about that from you is you saying why his role isn't imbalanced if not town - you don't really explain why you think he's lying.
On October 10 2012 11:30 Keirathi wrote: So gonzaw, answer me this:
If there is this framer than can frame himself to show up as visiting a specific target (ie, JH visiting austin), what stops Hiro or me, or you from being that framer? Lets play devil's advocate and say Hiro says that he is going to use his role on ghost. So you track Hiro, and he does in fact visit ghost. Now, why can't he be the framer? Why does it have to be Jingle?
That's the point I'm trying to make.
Well, you because, again if you were RS you wouldn't really have claimed P-Body with S&B (unless you are RS buddies). Also you are pretty town by now. Also all the shit I explained in that other post in D2 or D3 I think (about flavour and balance and shit). For instance it's very difficult for me to believe a real P-Body claim would be scum, instead of any of these "Hero of the night! Super Science extra bacon and cheese!" claims people are having being fake (with one of them being fake and the guy actually being "G-Man" or "Aperture Science NeuroToxin Manufacturer" or some shit).
Hiro because he as scum had to fake-claim those "I redirect my target" reports which can fuck him up in the ass very hard if he fucks it (if his claim is not consistent with something that happened, for instance someone doing something on Hiro and not being redirected to someone else). ...meh it's possible, I don't remember when Hiro claimed (I think he claimed before Jingle? And ghost of course). He could have easily tried to get an "easier" fake-claim to claim as scum.
I'm mostly looking at austin's and JH's claims which are too "safe", don't add anything new to this discussion (which would be pretty convenient as scum to do) and seem defensive of them. I.e it can't be verified and it "justifies" them doing any weird shit (like austin visiting someone random at night).
Like I said austin could have used it as well....but meh austin at least is here talking (although I always fall for that) and he didn't claim "bulletproof" at least.
If JH is hiding something like austin said it'd be good to claim. @austin: I don't really take JH's Matt vote into account. If he's scum he's doing crazy shit to create chaos and maybe stop people paying attention to iam and then pass it off as "good ol' crazy town JingleHell". If he's town he's just nuts like always.
What made me wary about him being scum was basically the difference in play between here and his game as scum. Not that much difference in play (like Hiro's play here and in RockBand mafia for instance), but it was kind of subtle (I already explained it before).
Right now I'd be willing to discard any read I have (except maybe the town read on keirathi) since (spoilers) I'm almost always wrong with reads and they fuck up my head and I start babbling and making weird theories and playing like shit and then I die/get lynched and everything goes to hell.
Right now I want everybody to chime in and just find the motherfucking scum any way possible. Either by comparing claims, or logically determine contradictions in claims and shit, or just scumhunting and shit. I dunno, I'll reread everybody once we figured out this "claiming" shit and there's something serious going on.
You guys scumhunt all you want though, I'll keep going with my theories until ghost claims and Jingle comes and Matt posts something and shit Hey Hiro, which of these claims do you think is fake? Which one do you believe? How do they relate with the previous reads you had on everybody?
It's easy, like I said: someone fake-claimed already. Who?
Until ghost cc's Matt he's like confirmed non-RS (and maybe confirmed town, but just taking flavour into account and maybe stuff from my role PM) Can we still assume Kei and S&B are town? I'll still bet Kei is town so the questions boils to S&B basically. If so, it leaves austin/Kei/Hiro/ghost for remaining scum, and at least 1 scum in austin/Jingle/Hiro if we have at least 1 RS and 1 BS remaining.
So, based on this, who do you guys think is the guy fake-claiming from austin/Jingle/Hiro? Let's have some fun discussing until ghost comes (and maybe cc's Chell or something, could happen). If you think someone else (Matt/S&B) is fake-claiming or claiming real role as scum shoot.
On October 10 2012 12:06 austinmcc wrote: Being "good ol' crazy town ANYONE" isn't necessarily scummy.
?? My point is that if he's scum he could act batshit crazy to stir off suspicion of iamperfection but have everybody ignore it since he'd act like that as town However I've read some of his previous games (PTP3 for instance) so I can see him doing that as town as well. Which is why I didn't really pay attention to it. It did give me more townie vibes than scummy vibes since it didn't really seem to push a scum agenda and if it did it was so obvious it wouldn't have worked at all.
I just...if he wants to create chaos why doesn't he keep it up? I'd think creating chaos AND getting called 100% town for it by someone would egg you on to do more.
One reason would be preservation like Keirathi said before. If he's the sole remaining RS, who would benefit from the chaos he created if it gets him lynched? Black Mesa would benefit, that's it. If he's the sole remaining RS it would make sense to just keep up whatever he's doing with me to "hide" in plain sight without having to do anything important all game (just accuse me, start a shitstorm with me every now and then, vote me and be desinterested of the rest of the game).
Well...if I put it like that it seems like he's super scummy...again the thing is that some of his posts and reasonings seemed genuine, and again he seemed to go against me because he genuinely thought I was scum rather than go against me to justify his vote/activity (at first, on N1-D2).
Instead, he's fallen back into what I recognize as town JH's pattern, based only on PTP3. His constant pushing on you this game feels like his constant pushing on Grush in that game. Pop in start of the day, vote, dip out. There are some differences in other areas, but I'm thinking those are improvements to some flaws rather than him playing differently because he's a different alignment this game.
Could be...or maybe not. I have no idea.
Oh, one more thing: If JingleHell is scum this game I'm going to policy lynch or tunnel the hell out of everybody that tunnels me for more than 2 cycles without properly explaining themselves. If he's scum no more "damn he could just be bad town" from me. Scum doing that to me pisses me off (specially when it works) since I feel they are taking advantage of me. Townies doing that to me pisses me off as well because I can't realize if they are scum taking advantage of me (and also because of the whole in-game stuff).
Hey Hiro, which of these claims do you think is fake? Which one do you believe? How do they relate with the previous reads you had on everybody?
I think your claim is real. It kinda explains why you've been playing strange - you were hedging your bets in case of a red scum win. And I frankly don't see a mafia player making the claim that you did - revealing that you have a wincon in which you can win with scum pretty much makes you a lynch candidate down the road and it's not something a mafia player would do.
Since your role mentions Chell (and I don't see Chell being a mafia role), Mattchew is probably also town. Unless ghost ccs lol.
austin's claim needs someone who can make portals, so if no one claims that he's scum. The fact that he made a claim like that though probably means he's town - scum don't make claims like that where they depend on someone else to support them (unless they have a teammate to do it, but no one's stepped up like that, so no teammate and probably not 3 people on a scum team).
Not sure about JingleHell. His claim could be real, I have no real way of telling. But it doesn't reveal any real information and it whether it's real or not doesn't really say anything about whether he is town or scum.
There really aren't very many people left who can really be scum tbh. Just austin, ghost, and Jingle. Well I guess you could be too and Chell could just be someone who you need to kill to gain powers or something, but I don't think it's likely at this point.
Accuse someone. Anyone, come on.
Go go go go go
Take a stance, even if it's a stupid one without evidence like my "Jingle is a RS Framer" one. Remember there are at least 2 scum left, even if you take a dice to determine who's scum you can't be that wrong and may actually get it right.
Or maybe you are BS? Meh.
Jingle and Hiro could make sense I think. Again substitute ghost with any of them if it's possible, and that could also make sense
One thing I failed to mention is that I think maybe the BS could have claimed his real role (if RS is a framer like I'm stupidly speculating).
Hiro could be BS and be a "re-director" (with more anti-town abilities I suppose as well). Mattchew could be BS and be a bus driver; Jingle could be BS and be that "super-hider" like some people argued about, and ghost could be BS and...whatever the hell he will claim (austin too. bla bla bla).
The thing is that I think the BS could have claimed his own abilities or part of them and just fake-claim his role name; while I think the RS may need to completely fake his claim (from abilities and all). Mostly because I don't see a RS with any of the abilities that were already claimed (maybe again except Matt's bus driver one).
On October 10 2012 12:26 HiroPro wrote: austin's claim needs someone who can make portals, so if no one claims that he's scum.
Portals can be a scum ability. If so it's possible they won't claim it (because if may incriminate him..and also to incriminate austin like you said yourself).
Portals are most likely the list swap thing, which like I said is most likely from scum
I think I convinced myself with that "devils advocate" thing I wrote above lol. Also it's the only way I can make sense of the Nisani check and in my head that theory I made makes sense.
On October 10 2012 12:48 Keirathi wrote: I'll be honest, this game went from fun to boring the minute we started trying to solve it rather than play it.
This game would have been boring (to me) and pretty shitty if I hadn't claimed and everybody bandwagoned against me today and unanimously got me lynched and then town lost. Also with S&B/Matt/ghost/Jingle/Hiro barely active most of the time this game has been me+you+austin arguing ever since D3 basically. Unless you had fun doing that
I intended only me to claim, but meh I guess my checks forced other guys to claim as well.
I'd be stressed as fuck spending all D4 trying to convince people I'm town in a futile attempt and get lynched while nobody listens to me and then go "meh, gonzaw was scummy" as soon as I flip and instantly get over it while I then go to the obs qt and see I got every single read wrong and weep for hours in front of the mirror. ...okay maybe I don't weep for hours in front of the mirror...but still it's not really a pleasant situation/set of situations to be in.
I'd prefer ending the game in a high note by catching the scum no matter the method (analyzing claims and speculation or scumhunting or both) rather than end up feeling shitty while playing and then feel shitty after I play.
Although that's kind of irrelevant. This "massclaim" happened, you feel shitty about it, I don't. Although I don't think I would have really wanted it to happen though, I just wanted to claim not get lynched, then maybe lynch austin or ghost/Mattchew (what I thought back in N2).
Also I kind of find a fascination with claims and fake-claims and that kind of stuff. Like, trying to use your head and figure out what happened and how it could have happened and who's lying based on what you know makes you feel like a detective, and is super cool (at least when you get it right).
I remember there being a "logical" game out there were everybody was a tracker/watcher and scum had fake-claims and it was a whirlwind of night actions and shit and you had to make sense of them and try to logically find out who was scum and it was cool as hell to read. Pre-Edit: Oh yeah it was this one
I guess there's some stuff like that in this part of the game which makes it interesting.
ghost, answer these questions and react accordingly:
Why did you swap places some nights and not others? If you thought Keirathi was scum on N1, why didn't you swap places with Drazerk and check Keirathi for instance?
Assuming Hiro is telling the truth, why were you able to swap places with Hiro on N2 if he redirected your power onto me? You didn't swap places with me. This is of course assuming the only action done on Hiro was yours.
Assuming the above is true and Matt is telling the truth, then the power would be redirected at Keirathi, who didn't swap at all
Like someone said above, could you explain the weird stuff you posted?
Why didn't you do shit to try and stop the Drazerk lynched? I mean...I assume you thought your checks were legit right? Why didn't you oppose the Draz lynched, or maybe even claimed to stop him from getting lynched?
Why did you decide not to swap places on N3 with austin for instance and check me?
Are you sure you checked the guys you checked? Was your report "Keirathi is town" on N3? If Matt is telling the truth, you actually checked HiroPro. However, my tracking reports work like this: If I track player X who visits player Y but X is bussed with player Z, then I receive a report on who Z visited. That means I get "Player Z visited Player M", which means I'd know I visited the wrong guy who was bussed. If this is true, and I extrapolate that rule to your DT checks as well, I'd assume you'd be the same. I.e if Matt is telling the truth, you'd receive a "HiroPro is town" check last night. However this is not what you claimed. So are you lying, is Matt lying or does your role work entirely different than what would be expected (maybe your DT check is bus-proof like Drazerk's vig shot)?
Answer all those questions, and again....react accordingly
On October 10 2012 23:56 ghost_403 wrote: Alright, I'm a Malfunctioning sentry turret. GLaDOS swapped my turrets with a portal gun, so I can swap places with peoples at night. Also, I can check the alignment of the person below me on the player list. Night 1, I didn't move and checked JingleHell. Night 2, I swapped with HiroPro and checked Drazerk. Night 3, I guess I stayed where I was at and checked Keirathi.
Do you target a spot on the player list to swap into or a specific player?
A specific player since he visited you (assuming my report is correct....which at this point I think it is as long as ghost is telling the truth).
Also, if ghost is telling the truth then my Jingle=Framer theory is false, since Jingle can't frame himself and Nisani on N1 at the same time, and I doubt he's GF like GlaDOS.
Well, Matt obviously doesn't care about this game anymore and about finding scum. I'd instantly get him lynched over that except for the Chell thing. If the whole "Chell can't be RS" is true....then at worst he's BS. If the remaining RS wants to try to use my alt-win-con he will have to kill Matt, so if Matt's BS it's possible RS would try to kill him (or try to get him lynched) It's improbable though.
I'd want to deal with a BS Chell once we kill all RS so there can't be any problems with my new traitor status (if the RS is still alive there would be a lot of trouble).
His claim brings some conflicts with what other people stated. The Hiro/Keirathi check from ghost is one, and depending on what ghost says we may have a liar between the 2 of them, and it's possible it's Matt. If he's really bus driver, I don't really know why he'd lie about his actions? I mean, if he's the sole remaining BS then his ability isn't that much useful so he can easily use it "pro-town" (target 1 scum and 1 town to get the scum shot) or appear so and not lie about his reports. If he lies about his reports he can get lynched by there being conflicts (like this ghost one).
If he's really busdriver then he's telling the truth most likely. If he's not busdriver and ghost is town...then it's possible he just got caught. Although everything points out that he's really Chell (proven by my role PM) and he's busdriver (flavour wise makes sense, and fake-claim bus driver seems kind of stupid for a scum with different powers), and so his reports are correct (since he'd have no reason to fake them, specially if he doesn't know what other people did and he could get caught pretty easily by lying).
I hope that's the case though. Again, even if he's Chell, real busdriver and his reports are correct he could still be BS....but again that seems unlikely, no matter how bad his play has been since N1.
Imagine ghost is town and Matt is BS....Matt has no idea about player swap and maybe just like us never noticed the ghost+Hiro N2 swap. Even if he's BS lying or something he could have claimed without taking into account the swaps
We can safely assume ghost is responsible for the swapping, whether he's town or scum. And again I'm barring weird cases like ghost+Matt being scumbuddies and planning some weird shit, since again I don't think there are any team larger than 2 here (if there were they'd also be more proactive by now...you know, considering this could be a form of LYLO to them and they could easily win with a BS/town misslynch today).
Anyways, the conflicts I've found with ghost's claim are these: -He visited and swapped with Hiro on N2 even though Hiro claimed he redirected an action done on him on me -He claimed he visited Keirathi last night and got a town check, but Matt bussed Kei+Hiro so he should have gotten a check on Hiro
Either I misunderstood the situations, or either ghost is lying or either both Hiro and Mattchew are lying... I think this may have a little bit from both (maybe I did understand things wrong), but the 2nd situation doesn't look good at all for ghost.
Considering ghost got a town check on Jingle and like I said Jingle can't be 2xframer (I assume), if ghost is town Jingle is likely town.
Could we assume something like this?: Scum: Hiro+Mattchew or ghost+Jingle
In the 1st case, ghost told us the truth about everything and Hiro and Matt fucked up their fake-claims for not taking into account what ghost would claim. In the 2nd case, JH is scum, ghost fake-claimed later a green check on JH to save JH's ass for now (i.e both scum want a misslynch today, not a lynch on the other guy), but ghost didn't notice the small details from Matt's and Hiro's claim so fucked up those. I think the Hiro thing might be a misunderstanding though...since it doesn't make much sense since it seems ghost did visit Hiro and swap with him regardless of alignment (meaning the swap never redirected)
No, Draz's role said that if he uses his vig target he overrides his Copycat one. I.e if he uses his vig shot on N1 he can't use his copycat ability that same night
Welcome to Aperture Mafia 2: Portal Edition! You are Cave Johnson, The Persistent Copycat Vigilante. You founded this great company, and if there is one thing you learned is when faced with a problem, throw money at it! Your great fortune and charisma allows you to buy and copy the abilities used on you. Each daypost, you will recieve a random ability used on you the previous night. You will not be told what ability you recieve, because all that sciency stuff is for the research monkeys to understand. Each night you may target a player to use this ability on. Your incredible influence allows your stolen abilites to go through anything, meaning they will hit their target unless you are roleblocked. In the place of your normal power, you may use your last combustable lemon to deal 1 kp to someone. this KP goes through Roleblock and bussdriver effects (not medic). You win with the town.
So if he got bussed on N1, I don't think he was able to copycat the power since he wasted it on the vig shot. I don't know if the "combustible lemon" means he can never use the copycat thing again....if he could then he would have known ghost DT checked him on N2 since that's an ability done on him, and therefore he would have been able to use a DT ability himself and claim it or let us know. Of course if he received this ability on D2 he hasn't used it yet since he was lynched that same day.
If Ghost is scum, JH still town
Why is this? Because of the Mattchew vote again? If ghost is BS then we can't know...but it at least means that Hiro and Matt told the truth about their roles...plus considering the IAMP push it means they can't really be RS (also the Chell thing), and that leaves very little suspects for RS, mainly you+Kei+S&B+Jingle. If Kei+S&B are town then that leaves either you or JH. Right now I'm inclined to believe JH is scum over you, because of previous reasons... ...or maybe S&B is scum and we should have listened to Drazerk all game long and lynch him >_> <_<
Well...I'm leaving in like 2 hours to uni and I'll be back right before the deadline I think. If when I come back I start reading the thread I may not be able to update anything in the thread or change my vote/etc (I'd have to read pretty quickly).
Meaning....I'd prefer to leave my final vote before leaving...which can't be done if neither Jingle nor ghost (or at least Mattchew :/ ) show up.
Let's make this clear again: today we lynch the remaining Aperture Science member Yes, ghost can be BS but fuck I want to get rid of all RS first. The thing is that it may be more "obvious" that ghost is BS, but it's not obvious who other player is RS.
Is it Jingle, Hiro or you (I also take it I'm in that suspect list from some of you)? Or in a weird plot twist maybe it was S&B all along or some shit. Meh. If you guys want to play it safe go ahead and lynch the BS then...but I'll try to keep my vote on the RS before I leave to uni.
Everybody in this game other than me and Keirathi is scum, I'm sure of it. Maybe not you, since at least you are making an effort right now even though you could still be scum talking out of your ass. But shit everybody else just doesn't care about this game at all, even with all this interesting shit that's going on and we having the possibility to catch all scum right now.
Yes, maybe there are 5 scum out there and everybody else was right. GG scum, well played you fucked my mind.
Yeah...I don't think I'm doing what you think I'm doing since I have no idea what you are implying and i don't really have a secret plan other than "find all scum today and get this over with". If I'm doing it I have no idea I'm doing it
Meh, fair enough, I won't start arguing against those points because: -I already explained them so it's useless -I had to explain myself way later than when the actual events happened. I don't have a database of all my emotions and thoughts when I make every single post so I may remember things incorrectly or misinterpret them once I try to explain them later (for instance maybe I didn't unvote IAM "just because of the momentum" and there was something else, but if there was I don't remember and me looking back at those posts makes me think it was because of the momentum thing).
Also, me thinking Drazerk being town is just me being awesome (for like 10 minutes though, then I started sucking again )
If either Chell or GlaDOS are still alive until endgame: I win when town wins and RS and BS are all dead
If both Chell and GlaDOS are dead: I win when either:
I am alive and RS wins
Town wins (and I'm either dead or alive, doesn't matter)
So if red scum wins but chell is still alive do you lose?
Yes because I'm still a townie
Basically how it seems to me is that as long as matt is alive you don't count as red scum, but once matt dies you count as scum for the "faction>other factions" and for the calculation of KP so we probably have to lynch you as soon as matt dies.
No. If Matt dies you guys better lynch the RS (assuming it's only 1 remaining). Let's assume first that all the BS are dead and there's only 1 RS remaining. 1)If I become a traitor and you guys lynch me, then you still have to lynch 1 RS in the next day. 2)If I become traitor and you guys lynch the RS, since there are no more RS and BS town wins and so do I.
As you can see that 2nd scenario is better for both town and me even if I become traitor. In (1) I can't win with the RS if I'm lynched. Once I die I can only win with town so I'd be rooting for you guys to lynch the RS. The only way I could possibly root for the RS is if it's LYLO and me+him can act like RS and win instantly....but then again if that happens and he outs himself we can just lynch him and I can win with town lol. The point is that in a scenario (at day time) where I can win with RS I can also win with town so unless I'm lynched I wouldn't really care about either, and like I said I'd probably side with town since town is my BFF and RS is a big meanie
Ehmm, well actually maybe if I become a traitor I could act "pro-town" while the RS is still alive, and misslynch someone else so I can win with the RS in a next day LYLO? Meh, I doubt that's possible since I don't know the RS's identity, so unless I say "Let's lynch Keirathi!" I can even lynch the RS by mistake even if I decide to be "pro-town".
In (2), as soon as you guys lynch the RS town wins the game, with me.
Some of these reasons are why I want to lynch the RS today....so we can just forget about my alt-win con and play the game normally.
Ehmm...I don't know if I count for calculation of KP though...Grey didn't tell me that >_>
Pre-Edit: Oh I think I do, Grey told me "I count as a member of the mafia" once I become traitor...so I guess I count for their numbers and KP? Geez that sucks.
I dunno, if I ever become traitor your best bet can be just ignore me if you think I'm acting anti-town and lynch the RS by yourselves.
Either way I can win with town no matter what so that can still benefit me (even if I suddenly become a dick and want RS to win).
One point is certain: I'm townie now so unless I'm playing against my win condition by trying to get Mattchew killed so I become traitor so I can win with RS then everything I said is true and comes from a townie-point of view (although is that playing against one's win-con? That's kind of confusing).
Sorry lied after I saw that post I had to stay >_>
My PM doesn't say Chell it says Chell (I just put it blue to make my post pretty)
Also did you think that maybe I didn't think that much before posting? As soon as I realized I count for mafia's KP I thought it sucked because well...it does.
So ghost is lying then? I skimmed the thread but don't have time to think about what he claimed.
...what if he's BS? Again, I think we should lynch RS today
I am not that sure Jingle is the RS, and maybe austin is and he's fucking with us or something, but I think it's the best course of action since he didn't come back and never reacted to my claim and also that theory I made and other shit
Okay, I'm tracking Jingle tonight. Worst case scenario he's that "self-framer" or another GF and he visits someone that's not the guy that receives a shot tonight.
Or the other "worst case scenario" is that nobody is shot (which is actually good)
On October 10 2012 12:40 gonzaw wrote: One thing I failed to mention is that I think maybe the BS could have claimed his real role (if RS is a framer like I'm stupidly speculating).
Hiro could be BS and be a "re-director" (with more anti-town abilities I suppose as well). Mattchew could be BS and be a bus driver; Jingle could be BS and be that "super-hider" like some people argued about, and ghost could be BS and...whatever the hell he will claim (austin too. bla bla bla).
The thing is that I think the BS could have claimed his own abilities or part of them and just fake-claim his role name; while I think the RS may need to completely fake his claim (from abilities and all). Mostly because I don't see a RS with any of the abilities that were already claimed (maybe again except Matt's bus driver one).
This is why we don't really compare claims with people we think is BS, but with people we think is RS.
On October 11 2012 08:04 austinmcc wrote: Emphasis on the second parenthetical there.
Yeah I forgot, Mattchew is still BS so kill him so I can win as traitor!
Anyways, good job Mattchew you are like 99% confirmed town now even though you did nothing to achieve that.. Don't know if you should bus JH with someone you think that might get shot because then I can't really track JH without knowing who you will shoot. Meh, it's possible though, just tell me beforehand if you are going to do that or not so I don't directly track Jingle.
Actually....BS's roles suck so much that it does make me think it may be possible they have 3 players (so there's 1 player left). I mean, RS have factional KP, plus a super GF/JOAT plus a wannabe traitor that can count as one of them in end-game plus whatever super role the remaining RS has (I speculate Framer) Those 2 BS can't really be a whole scum team in contrast...can they?
Wait...did ghost think Drazerk was RS? What other possible reason would he have, as scum, to swap positions with Hiro? Did he want to DT check Draz and see if he was RS to push his lynch and gain town cred or something like that?
Yeah it's the only thing that makes sense (specially since people may notice him changing positions and find it weird and put attention onto him).
Maybe after Draz checked town he backed off, but if Draz had checked RS he would have gone against him... ...another thought is: Should we trust his other reports? Basically JH being town and Kei being town as well. Obvious answer is no....but if he was the last BS on the verge of losing he would have given correct information to town to gain more town cred perhaps? If he's not the last BS he could have fucked with us though, and maybe he checked other people instead of those 2 (maybe he didn't check Hiro last night at all and that's why he fumbled trying to explain his action last night considering Matt's bus....if this is the case then Matt isn't BS since if he was they would have planned it and not let ghost get caught in that lie).
On October 11 2012 08:15 Keirathi wrote: Yea I'm sort of leaning towards a third black scum.
But, kill RS first. If we kill RS and its not end-game, then we worry about it.
Okay
...Mattchew you are not confirmed town anymore sorry.
Welcome to Aperture Mafia 2: Portal Edition! You are Chell Gordon Freeman and Dr.Kleiner infiltrated the Aperture Science labs, and saw a beautiful lady lying in the floor of a test chamber. They took her to a secret den and healed her wounds (from lasers and shit). After she regained consciousness she saw Freeman into his eyes: it was love at first sight. After making passionate mute teleporting love inside a portal, Chell agreed to help Freeman and Kleiner to take down Aperture labs and everybody inside them. "Yo know, fuck Wheatly and that Rattman guy, and also Cave Johnson for making this place in the first place. Those 2 robot guys that are doing tests too, fuck them, let's fuck some shit up" were her words as they teamed up to fuck some shit up.
You win when your Black Mesa team outnumbers all other players in the game
Being serious though...if they were BS I think they would have thought about ghost's claim a little bit better and not have both of them contradict their own claims/fake-claims (as I remember ghost contradicted himself with the Hiro/Keirathi check from N3 right?)
...you will then use this data to determine the alignment of the player directly below you in the player list.
Nevermind I'm an idiot that doesn't read. He couldn't have checked anybody else other than JH on N1 (unless he had swapped positions by then and nobody noticed..? >_>) and Keirathi on N3.
If all of his actions are true and proven by his role PM, would Mattchew really be BS with him, be in his QT arguing but not being able to figure out wtf happened between them on N3? I mean, ghost did check Keirathi on N3 (or maybe he didn't and faked it later?)
If Matt is BS and he faked his N3 report....wouldn't ghost know about it so he doesn't fuck up and would actually say "I got that Hiro was town/RS/BS on N3"? If Matt is BS and didn't fake his N3 report, wouldn't they know there was something wrong as soon as D4 hits, and thus they had done something to tackle it before claiming? I.e ghost would claim knowing full and well that his real check doesn't make sense, therefore he'd try to make some argument or even lie or something, he wouldn't forget about that until he's already on the chopping block.
THere are those posts:
On October 10 2012 23:56 ghost_403 wrote: Alright, I'm a Malfunctioning sentry turret. GLaDOS swapped my turrets with a portal gun, so I can swap places with peoples at night. Also, I can check the alignment of the person below me on the player list. Night 1, I didn't move and checked JingleHell. Night 2, I swapped with HiroPro and checked Drazerk. Night 3, I guess I stayed where I was at and checked Keirathi.
On October 11 2012 06:22 ghost_403 wrote: What? No. I swapped with Hiro Night 2. Going into Day 3, I had the check on draz. Going into Day 4, I had the check on you.
That's all I know. Either Mattchew is lying about the bus, or the bus doesn't go through because my action is passive or something. My PM says that I check Keirathi Night 3. I'm assuming that in the event of a bus, it would have read that I checked HiroPro instead. Let me check.
So, according to this: Can we assume Mattchew is not BS?
Again considering Mattchew is Chell, by his D1 actions and my role PM we can safely assume he is not RS.
Yeah it's possible. His role PM never says he visits or does any action on the guy below him. The "action" that makes him possible to DT check the guy below him is swapping via portals to a place above him.
Well yeah, it did seem like ghost legitimately checked Keirathi. The point is that if Matt is telling the truth and is his BS scumbuddy...wouldn't they have figured that out sooner and not just when ghost was 5 hours away from getting lynched? ghost would have claimed in his 1st post "I got a check on Keirathi, although I don't know what happened with that bus thing Mattchew did bla bla bla" to avoid giving conflicting reports and getting lynched for it (which is what happened basically).
How about lying and saying he got a check on Hiro? Or saying his checks are bus-proof like Draz's ability?
There are plenty of ways to get out of that situation without just standing there not knowing what's happening and getting lynched for it.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're really reaching for something to confirm Matt.
The more confirmed townies the better. Specially if it's Chell who I don't want to die so people don't get paranoid about me. Also to try and make sense of this situation and try to have less suspects for the remaining BS (if there is one)
How about the fact that I successfully determined ghost visited Hiro on N2 when the swap occurred before ghost claimed he did? Am I scumbuddies with ghost or did I get a lucky guess? Or maybe I'm so smart that I saw the ghost-Hiro swap before everybody else and correctly guessed what happened that night in order to make that claim? Also how about the fact that coincidentally my check on austin last night didn't contradict anything? You think I knew what austin's role was before claiming he visited Hiro/Keirathi? Or did I get lucky again? Or maybe I am a tracker BS/RS? How about all the "crumbs" I left all over the place in that explanation I made in my post?
You are telling me I planned claiming that Nisani visited Mementos ever since N2 (or D3 if you get picky)? That is a hell of a fake-breadcrumb for claiming something that doesn't make sense.
Do you want me to believe you think the answer to all these questions is "yeah you faked that you scum"? I don't think I could quite believe that unless you make a very good argument.
You have all the time in the world this N4 to determine why I am scum Jingle, so I'd advice you use it and not go lurking/inactive You also better visit austin tonight Jingle, and austin better not drop dead
...yeah I think that's kind of a flaw with this whole "track Jingles" plan, dunno how we'll solve it. Having a medic on austin is a possibility. If Jingle is scum and decides to visit someone else, I'll see him visiting him. If he decides to not shoot, I'll see him not visit anybody. If he decides to kill austin and then claim "obviously scum killed austin since they knew I was visiting him!", then austin will be saved and there will be no night kill, so everything fine, another "free" day to lynch scum. Again the worst case scenario is that he's that Framer-GF.
You also haven't answered my question: Why did you drop by just to claim and disappear and paid no attention to the post where I claimed? From your POV I was scum fake-claiming to create chaos; and also avoid getting lynched and have most people believe me (which I did! If I was scum and you town you would have been pretty terrible at your job Jingle), so why didn't you at least mention my claim? Again, it was a gigantic post filled with colors and blue bolded asterisks all over. It was impossible to miss...like at all.
I recommend that you protect gonzaw, so that his track goes through and we at least have some kind of information. If he's not town tracker, then our only town information role was a watcher and a super conditional uncontrollable Role Cop.
But what if austin dies tonight and I get that Jingle visited austin? I'm 100% sure that's what will happen if there is 0 medic saves on austin and austin is not RS (whether JH is RS or not).
If I am to track Jingle austin should be protected or scum should fear he's protected so scum doesn't shoot him. I also need to be protected to get my check... And matt needs to be protected because he's Chell and all that shit.
....yeah we are short on medics tonight :/ WIFOMing between all of us may be the better option (as long as S&B+Kei don't target the same person). Try again Jingle
Strike nº1
Once I get to Strike nº3 I'll 100% ignore everything you say and tunnel you until you die. Well, I may not ignore things that I deem important to try and get you lynched of course.
Okay people, tomorrow we lynch JingleHell no matter what. (I want that big for emphasis)
It should be obvious by now the reason why. He cares shit about the game and cares shit about finding scum. He doesn't even care about trying to get me lynched and convincing people I'm scum even though I'm his "biggest scumread" ever since Day.Mother.Fucking.One. I'm his greatest read yet he can't find the time or effort to attack the points I make or the points other people make for me being town. He doesn't give a shit he just wants to vote me as soon as D5 starts and survive as long as possible.
2nd post of the page? Check Biggest post in the game? Check It starts and ends with blue bolded asteriks so it's impossible to miss? Check It has a million of colors and fonts and formats so it's impossible to miss if you skim it? Check
It is impossible Jingle missed it, yet he didn't mention it at all, even though he had enough time to post 7 times afterwards and greatly discuss his role. You would have thought that trying to get your "Greatest scumread in all history of mafia" lynched would be the most important task in your book if it's near end-game and that player made a fantastic claim almost everybody fell for; not claiming out of nowhere and spending 100% of your effort trying to convince people your role can't be a scum role
You know what other thing? Yep, he spent those 7 posts of his explaining how his role can't belong to a Black Mesa member. Any mention of Aperture Science? No. Any mention about anything else at all? No Did he give a shit about anything else other than his own survival? No Just 7 posts explaining why his role is "overpowered" for a BS to have (or just as scum to have). You know Jingle, you are right, that role is "OP" for scum to have, therefore the only explanation is that you are fake-claiming it and you have a different scum role.
Fuck the town read I had for most of this game, I won't stand up for more bullshit right now fearing Jingle is just a misled townie or some shit. Jingle is a member of the Aperture Science Team and has to die
If you want speculation about whether he fake-claimed or not read this:
On October 10 2012 10:58 gonzaw wrote: Hey....I had a thought, let's see where it goes:
What if Jingle is an Aperture Science Framer?. He can choose what check/report can come from a player he chooses. On N1 he chose Nisani and made it so he visited Mementos (if there is a framer role that wanted to frame Nisani it has to be from RS since BS didn't know Mementos would get killed due to their lack of factional KP and I think almost any KP whasoever), which explains my report.
Now, he claims he's "bulletproof guy that always visits austin at night to hide". He claimed this after I claimed tracker. If he's RS, he knows that I can track him at night now (and be un-RBeable and maybe bulletproof if Kei/S&B target me), so he could get instantly caught. To survive my reports he'd need to not shoot at night....which would be weird and still scummy if I say I'm going to track him. Therefore he claimed a role that only visits austin at night and if I see him visit austin at night it "confirms" him as town if we believe what he told us... ...but what if he frames himself every night from now on and makes any track report from him say he visited austin? Even if he chooses to shoot someone unrelated at night (maybe Keirathi for instance), my track report will say he visited austin, therefore "confirming" his role, and of course justifying him living so long at night (i.e scum not killing him) since "scum wouldn't shoot a bulletproof hider".
Didn't really have a scum read on Jingle but fuck scumreads right now they didn't do me any good until now. Let's speculate! What do you guys think of this possibility?
Granted austin could do something similar with a framer ability (i.e frame himself so he visits an "unrelated" target, someone different than who he shoots).
Meh, seems improbable that a framer can frame himself, but really...what other explanation could there be for my N1 report and the lack of "scummy" claims so far? (i.e claims that can be refuted, etc)
If you want some scum motivation for his actions this game read this:
On October 10 2012 12:06 austinmcc wrote: Being "good ol' crazy town ANYONE" isn't necessarily scummy.
?? My point is that if he's scum he could act batshit crazy to stir off suspicion of iamperfection but have everybody ignore it since he'd act like that as town However I've read some of his previous games (PTP3 for instance) so I can see him doing that as town as well. Which is why I didn't really pay attention to it. It did give me more townie vibes than scummy vibes since it didn't really seem to push a scum agenda and if it did it was so obvious it wouldn't have worked at all.
I just...if he wants to create chaos why doesn't he keep it up? I'd think creating chaos AND getting called 100% town for it by someone would egg you on to do more.
One reason would be preservation like Keirathi said before. If he's the sole remaining RS, who would benefit from the chaos he created if it gets him lynched? Black Mesa would benefit, that's it. If he's the sole remaining RS it would make sense to just keep up whatever he's doing with me to "hide" in plain sight without having to do anything important all game (just accuse me, start a shitstorm with me every now and then, vote me and be desinterested of the rest of the game).
Well...if I put it like that it seems like he's super scummy...again the thing is that some of his posts and reasonings seemed genuine, and again he seemed to go against me because he genuinely thought I was scum rather than go against me to justify his vote/activity (at first, on N1-D2).
Instead, he's fallen back into what I recognize as town JH's pattern, based only on PTP3. His constant pushing on you this game feels like his constant pushing on Grush in that game. Pop in start of the day, vote, dip out. There are some differences in other areas, but I'm thinking those are improvements to some flaws rather than him playing differently because he's a different alignment this game.
Could be...or maybe not. I have no idea.
Oh, one more thing: If JingleHell is scum this game I'm going to policy lynch or tunnel the hell out of everybody that tunnels me for more than 2 cycles without properly explaining themselves. If he's scum no more "damn he could just be bad town" from me. Scum doing that to me pisses me off (specially when it works) since I feel they are taking advantage of me. Townies doing that to me pisses me off as well because I can't realize if they are scum taking advantage of me (and also because of the whole in-game stuff).
Also Keirathi and other people wrote plenty of shit about him and phrased it better than me (about his contributions and shit), so read that as well.
He might be BS, but his actions towards the D1 lynch where he tried to spout bullshit and chaos by disrupting the iamperfection lynch, never mentioning iamperfection at all even though he could have easily jumped on his lynch if he was a Black Mesa member, all point fingers towards him being RS instead
On October 10 2012 02:27 JingleHell wrote: Also, if we have a vigi with bullets, confirming me tonight wouldn't be so bad.
Shit maybe he's even a scum vet like ghost is and wants us to waste a vig bullet if there is one. ...or he's just talking his ass off since every townie has already claimed by that point and nobody had claimed vig so he's 100% sure he can't get shot, since I'm sure he concluded that BS have no KP left. Therefore why not try to catch a little bit more of town cred by suggesting someone shoots him at night? Again, what would be the town motivation for that? If a vig shoots him the vig loses his bullet. Why would he want a vig to lose his bullet on D5 (this is not D1 people) instead of having the vig...I dunno SHOOT ME, HIS GREATEST SCUM READ EVER????? Biggest contradiction of interests ever....
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention his claim is the safest claim in the game. He claims he's bulletproof at night while austin is alive, and always visits austin at night, and does nothing else. If that doesn't sound like the most convenient claim ever then I'll fucking tapdance naked on top of a bus going downhill. You know what? I may not even track him tonight, he'll be dead by the D5 lynch and flip RS so no need to waste my track ability on him. What I can do is try to use my track ability to maybe confirm some "townie" players who claimed night actions didn't lie about their role trying to find the remaining BS if there is one.
Just in case people actually started to believe this:
On October 11 2012 10:41 JingleHell wrote: By the way, for anyone listening to Gonzaw... you do realize he claimed this guy, right?
Yeah you are right. I claimed a guy that wants to kill both Chell and GlaDOS But it's not like I claimed I also want to kill Chell and GlaDOS as well isn't? ...oh ....oh wait ....oh that's right, my role does want me to kill both Chell and GlaDOS
Sorry to disappoint you Jingle.
Also, if you want to base your case against me on "flavour", I can completely turn it around and destroy it:
Wheatly: 1)Wants to kill both Chell and GlaDOS to take over Aperture labs and be an addicted ruler of stuff 2)Doesn't give a shit about Black Mesa 3)Doesn't have anything against Doug Rattman, or P-Body, or Atlas, or Cave Johnson, or other personality cores, or the companion cube 4)Isn't GlaDOS, and isn't part of the Aperture Science Team at all and doesn't give a shit about them succedding
My role: 1)I have to kill both Chell and GlaDOS to take over Aperture labs with scum 2)I am not a Black Mesa member 3)My win-condition does not contradict the win condition of town 4)I am not an Aperture Science member
At worst you can make the argument that I am a 3rd party independant of town, RS and BS (that actually would have fitted in better, for instance what austin said about me winning the game once Chell and GlaDOS are dead), but not that I'm scum, at least not based on the flavour of my role.
Nice try though. Obvious attempt to discredit me with faulty logic is obvious though
Jingle was scum though, told you that (meh got the alignment wrong, whatever). Meh, that 3-3 thing fucked my reads. GG austin and Hiro (thank you for letting me win lololololo))
Okay, now I'm going to see who was the motherfucker that made my N1 report go wrong
lol austin that last post you made on me was so bad I was secretly laughing while I was reading the thread "Is this guy on drugs? lol".
Anyways....maybe I subconsciously knew who the RS scum were (austin and Hiro) and my subconscious made me have town reads on them and scum reads on the BS so I could win with RS instead of town....while my own conscious brain actually thought austin and Hiro were town?
......I really hope that's true...at least it's better than "I suck".
Anyways.....3 RS fucked up my reads, yes they did (specially since I assumed that if the guy I check doesn't visit the dead guy he's confirmed not RS....debunked by austin not visiting Mattchew on N3).
Anyways I wanted to kill 2 scum in D3 (austin+ghost) and 2 scum on D4 (ghost+Jingle) so I'm not that unhappy about my reads. At least I got all the townies right (except Mattchew at times lol)
On October 12 2012 08:16 Keirathi wrote: Good game everyone. It was really frustrating to me that it devolved into trying to solve the game rather than scum hunt, but overall I enjoyed the setup immensely. Tons of awesome roles. Thanks hosts!
the game devolved because town (especially mattchew) did jack shit after day 1. and gonzaw played brilliantly. that is assuming he was trying to play as a traitor lol. (and not town)
austin on QT I checked and he WOULD count for our KP numbers. I don't understand why he'd count for our KP numbers but not our wincon.
Maybe that's what Gonzaw is lying about? Really poor traitor claim to try and get us to let him live for that 3/2 situation and spring a victory? If so, that's stupid, because we'd win at 3/3 before the NK (he's only ever seen 1 NK, so he doesn't know we have extra KP).
Ugh. I don't get his claim AT ALL.
lol
Yeah, I lied. I initially said I didn't count for mafia numbers to: -Not convince town to lynch me (if I tell them I count for mafia numbers there's a greater chance I'm lynched) -Confuse scum and not let them kill Chell to try and get me be a traitor (again being traitor means I'm more likely to get lynched and lose as town).
Later S&B figured it out so I just told the truth and hoped nobody noticed (also if it confused scum even better).
On October 12 2012 09:45 JingleHell wrote: Hi Gonzaw.
Well sorry now you've made me paranoid about everything in a mafia game and I'll start tunneling players each game as soon as they tunnel me without reason. ...is that good or bad? I dunno, but I'm going to start doing it.
If I hadn't assumed there were just 2-2 scum I think I could have played better...
...but I agree with Matt, 3-3 scum means town has like 2% chance to win so I just completely discarded it from my mind. Like I said even if it was true and assumed it was 3-3 we would have lost anyways, so why bother thinking about the possibility of there being 3-3 scum?
Man, this game depressed me, even if I won by someone else's actions.
On October 10 2012 00:12 austinmcc wrote: Also, and maybe this explains a little of my D1, as a ssheep, I'm not know for being a leader. Therefore, if I ever cast the first vote of the day on a player, I may or may not blink out of existence, due to the "Von Heisenstein SSheep/NoSSheep Paradox Effect."
I'm really not sure why I didn't push that harder. It triggered by Bullshit-o-meter super hard, but I just let it fly after one comment
E: I'm just terrible as town, sadly
Meh, how do you think I feel, a healthy chunk of the town reads on me came because I did shitty in PTP3 and made myself look like a repeat performance...
How do you think I feel seeing you boast like hell in your scum QT and having me as your little bitch in there?
....lol I think in every QT (scum+obs+black) everybody thought I was scum....? .....really? Am I that hard to find townie?
Wtf I must have the easiest meta in TL history.
Also up until N1 I really tried to play reserved and not post walls of text or spam or speculate, but really the game mindfucked me later so I just didn't care. After Nisani flipped town I basically said "fuck it I'll just play without thinking", specially after all the BS flips and shit
Grey can you tell us exactly how town could win this game without both scum teams going 100% against each other?
This D1 was a miracle or something. Considering there are 6 anti-town players that would be extremely happy with a misslynch, the chances of a D1 misslynch are high as fuck. After that...it's 6 scum 6 town and it's the same thing. Very early in the game there can be more scum than town. How the hell can town win from that?
Again, this game was like a super town display in comparison with what could have happened (D1 misslynch, N1 town death, D2 misslynch, N2 town death, bye bye town).
On October 12 2012 10:55 gonzaw wrote: Grey can you tell us exactly how town could win this game without both scum teams going 100% against each other?
This D1 was a miracle or something. Considering there are 6 anti-town players that would be extremely happy with a misslynch, the chances of a D1 misslynch are high as fuck. After that...it's 6 scum 6 town and it's the same thing. Very early in the game there can be more scum than town. How the hell can town win from that?
Again, this game was like a super town display in comparison with what could have happened (D1 misslynch, N1 town death, D2 misslynch, N2 town death, bye bye town).
If you get lucky and lynch Dr. Kliner black scum will have a really hard time.
Black scum team had 0 killing power other than gordan, so their job is to help town lynch scum anyway to get a foot hold. so that shifts the balance of power to the town some degree.
Other than that town had a TON of medic protection. You lost some of it fairly quickly but mass claiming imo was a bad idea. Even if you were going to do that the fact mattchew did not use his power lost the game for town. Without Jingle or Matt sending in powers, the scum team knew exactly what was in play and was able to plan out their shots perfectly to net 2 kills, when previously they were lucky to get 1.
Well..yeah but even if medics save every KP at night it doesn't matter if there are more scum than town at day that can very easily influence the lynches and misslynch.
Black scum yeah, they might want to kill scum but they want to survive as well so I don't think they'd oppose a misslynch or at least not put the same effort in trying to get scum lynched as town does (not even talking about lynching their own).
Assuming there were only 4 scum left the massclaim wasn't a bad idea to me lol. Just lynch one scum on D4, then lynch the other scum on D5, then maybe lynch the remaining scum on D6, easy.
I seriously doubt the lynches after that point would have been anything other than austin/Hiro/Jingle. Maybe they could get a misslynch on me or Mattchew though. It's just that with 4 scum and 4 town and more than 1 KP at night you can't expect town to do much lol.
Anyways the massclaim is what convinced me Jingle was scum so I don't really see it as bad. Also austin's claim was "too safe" as well and I put him as possible RS....but Jingle was the other option as considering how he acted on D4-N4 he had to be scum, which by process of elimination (if there was only 1 or 2 scum remaining) austin would be town. Other than that the claims hurt scum as well. Almost all of them except ghost claimed very passive abilities, and "unprovable" abilties, which is too convenient at that point in the game.
Well.....actually the only "new" town claims by that point were Matt's and mine. That's not a "massclaim" lol (if you only consider townies claiming). Also Mattchew claimed by himself it had nothing to do with me > : (
I had to claim in my mind to avoid getting misslynched and get more people to believe my claim and believe me being town by trying to explain everything I did. It didn't help that almost all scum casted suspicion on it though, but I think on D4 every townie believed my claim...which is quite the opposite of the "lynch gonzaw" attitude everybody had on N3.
So basically...the only "claims" town had were mine (that I made with the reasoning above) and Mattchews. So how exactly did it "hurt" town? I may understand Matt claiming being bad...and I don't really know why he claimed out of nowhere, but it's not really a "massclaim" if there are more fake-claims than real ones.
I still can't believe how many people think I'm scum every time I'm town.
"Being scummy" and "doing anti-town stuff" is not enough since there are plenty of players out there that are scummy and do anti-town stuff as town but because of their attitude or meta they seem obviously town (also I'm not that scummy).
I feel like I'm one of them, specially when I reread the games where I'm scum and town and I say to myself "The differences are obvious! Hell I always act the same way when I'm town!"... ...meh, I guess that's something only I can see? Am I crazy here?
But both scum thought I was legitimately scum as well :/ It's not that they thought I was town and tried to get an easy misslynch on me....scum thought I was from the other scum team (both of them I think)
....I don't know what to think of that lol
N2 was the one where me and Jingle started that shitstorm right? I don't think there was nothing to do that night other than that though.
...well, you didn't know there was another scum until D3, but still. Yay! At least my win-buddies didn't thought I was really scum
@Hiro: If the only possible way you could be scum is being black, and there's also Jingle and ghost and Mattchew out there, I think using that "meta" thing to confirm you as non-BS was enough to convince myself for the time being. There was no way I could think of you as RS if you were IAM's sole remaining scumbuddy and just bussed him like that.
...if you guys were 3 scum it does make sense you bussing him (your other mate, austin, can try and force the lynch off IAM while you gain the town cred either way), but if you were 2 scum it wouldn't have made sense at all which is why you+Matt+Xfire were basically "confirmed non-RS".
And if I had to choose between you and ghost (and again maybe Mattchew) as BS I would have chosen you last. WIth all of that it's not that hard to misinterpret your meta from that other game you played.
....fuck I hate multiple-faction games. Why do I keep joining them?
...wait did I join this game? I think I was automatically signed up or something lol
Also I think I forgot to change my check last night away from Jingle (lol he was framed). Either way Hiro was untrackable so my ability wasn't that useful.
Ehm....there were only 2 active townies in the thread, me and Kei and I did most of the talking so I guess you should say "I'm upset that gonzaw decided to speculate on the setup and not scumhunt"
I tried to scumhunt on D3 but meh everybody was off parking a vote on Draz and leaving so I couldn't really do much since I wasn't too convinced.
What really angered me about the whole JH fiasco was how I couldn't even say his name without him fucking some shit up and nobody even said a word about it and just ignored it. That alone fucking scared me to talk about him, since something like N2 could happen but everybody else just ignores it. All the while I'm having a conflicting read on him so I can't really do much other than try to get Jingle to explain himself better and do something productive....which of course he wouldn't do at all if he could get away with it unharmed. *sigh* That frustrated me so much. After D4 though I would have gotten him lynched whether I thought he was town or scum I didn't give a fuck I just wanted him lynched. That final outburst against him felt good though lol.
On October 12 2012 13:54 gonzaw wrote: Ehm....there were only 2 active townies in the thread, me and Kei and I did most of the talking so I guess you should say "I'm upset that gonzaw decided to speculate on the setup and not scumhunt"
I tried to scumhunt on D3 but meh everybody was off parking a vote on Draz and leaving so I couldn't really do much since I wasn't too convinced.
Holy shit, how do you have a 20 page filter in a 90 page game.
Rofl.
Why don't you check my D1 filter?
Yep, only 1 page. I really tried to hold myself back with the posting there and be "pro-town" and change my playing style and all that shit. Once shit hit the fan though I just couldn't be arsed anymore. I mean, my filter doubled just on D3 alone, that should have given people some ideas lol.
On October 12 2012 14:00 Crossfire99 wrote: True, gonzaw. Lol. I guess town didn't participate enough. I mean Draz is Draz, matt and strong weren't really around. Nisani just kinda died lol. Ghost was never around because apparently his life was crazy busy. Jingle was active with his play, while I tried to keep low while playing townie enough to not get lynched, but not get shot. That didn't work out too well. lol. Yeah, so it was basically you and keirathi.
It didn't help that half the game was scum and would have benefited from JH's rants so they would obviously not try to stop it.
On October 12 2012 13:54 gonzaw wrote: Ehm....there were only 2 active townies in the thread, me and Kei and I did most of the talking so I guess you should say "I'm upset that gonzaw decided to speculate on the setup and not scumhunt"
I tried to scumhunt on D3 but meh everybody was off parking a vote on Draz and leaving so I couldn't really do much since I wasn't too convinced.
Holy shit, how do you have a 20 page filter in a 90 page game.
Rofl.
Why don't you check my D1 filter?
Yep, only 1 page. I really tried to hold myself back with the posting there and be "pro-town" and change my playing style and all that shit. Once shit hit the fan though I just couldn't be arsed anymore. I mean, my filter doubled just on D3 alone, that should have given people some ideas lol.
That was part of why I continued actually thinking you were scum up to the end. You suddenly spiked activity when you found out about Black Mesa, which made me think you suddenly felt "safe" hunting for real.
At that point I was kind of bummed about having conflicting reads and shit so I just didn't really care about scumhunting anymore (I've said so lots of times, specially on N2 I think). At that point the game got interesting so I spent my time trying to figure the setup out and player's colors and night actions and sort of play a detective figuring out the clues and shit.
On October 12 2012 14:03 JingleHell wrote: ##Vote Gonzaw
You've posted that so many times that it's just like an extension of your vocabulary lol
On October 12 2012 14:07 Crossfire99 wrote: That's the thing. My ability wouldn't activate if any of them targeted me. Not position swapping, DT checking, or mind-controlling. Only someone else's ability that wasn't Black Mesa.
Yeah Grey's "plan" that BS could have used to have constant night KP was kind of complex and far-fetched lol.
Also....I think we would have noticed ghost swapping places every since night and him not claiming anything about it (well at least I think we would, if it was done every single night).
On October 12 2012 14:10 Crossfire99 wrote: Heck that's what made it scary to use Jingle's ability on someone to target me. We had no idea what their ability was. I figured there would have been a DT because there were 2 scum factions and at least 5 total. Also, I figured there would be more than just 1 town vig with that many scum, but meh. idk
ou needed to play townie enough to get some protection.
I would have thought he would have gotten protection on N1 though. I mean, he was like "confirmed town" by that point, wasn't him? Why didn't any of the 4 "medics" (Nisani, Kei, S&B, Mementos) protect him? lol
Also Matt, you made us waste 1 medic save on N1, that's not fair
Also:
Grey on Obs QT: Just letting you guys know, by a stroke of extreme coincidence Gonzaw has become invincible this night cycle.
thought that was funny
lol when was this?
hahaha it would have been funny if everybody shot me at the same time or something.
On October 12 2012 14:10 Crossfire99 wrote: Heck that's what made it scary to use Jingle's ability on someone to target me. We had no idea what their ability was. I figured there would have been a DT because there were 2 scum factions and at least 5 total. Also, I figured there would be more than just 1 town vig with that many scum, but meh. idk
ou needed to play townie enough to get some protection.
I would have thought he would have gotten protection on N1 though. I mean, he was like "confirmed town" by that point, wasn't him? Why didn't any of the 4 "medics" (Nisani, Kei, S&B, Mementos) protect him? lol
Why would he get protection? He was pretty useless. Plopping a vote down doesn't make you "confirmed town" and it certainly doesn't merit receiving protection.
He hammered a scum from the (at that point assumed) only scum faction in the game on D1. If he was town, scum would have it almost impossible to get him lynched and he would be considered pretty much confirmed town (like many did) because of that fact, whether he's useless or not. That's enough for scum to shoot him (if he were town), which is enough to get him protection (to avoid a scum shot), at least from 1 of the 4 medics. I'm glad they didn't though of course
On October 12 2012 14:16 GreYMisT wrote: Gonzaw you became invincible becasue Matt bussed you and Keirathi, and Drazerk stole Matts ability and Bussed you and S&B. This means any ability directed at you would be done to both S&B and Keirathi, and anything done to Keirathi would skip you and go to S&B. and vice versa
Did S&B/Kei target me or one of them that night?
I don't really get how that's being invincible. If let's say S&B was shot that night...I'd get shot instead and die, right?
EPT
