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Hi guys. Playing history: started town newbie XXII, was scum XXIII, town XXIV, scum XXV; also playing NMM III right now. Filters available upon request.
Currently reading through the thread. Agree with Hapa's lynch lurkers policy. I'm going to add that lurkers who are among the last folks to start posting should include cases in their first posts. If they don't, I will vote to lynch them. Why? Because when scum lurks and then doesn't have to commit early, they can test the waters for mislynching bad townies before committing to reads. This policy is to remove that opportunity.
(Ideally, though, the point is not to lynch lurkers for easy votes -- that's how scum can get bad townies mislynched. The point is to prod lurkers to post.)
Now, onto reads: No one's being serious right now other than Hapa, Hero, Risen, and Mattchew (which is now me.) Mkfuba07 and Zentor are two people who are active but relatively devoid of content in their posts, and hence earn my first two FoS this game.
Also, hi Mkfuba07!
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On August 31 2012 14:26 BlackMamba24 wrote:
I wouldn't policy lynch someone abstaining. From my perspective, at least personally, there's not much reason for mafia to abstain from voting so early. It isn't suspicious to hold onto your vote until later in the day unless someone is really in the hot seat, so what's the point of an early abstain? Maybe a really new mafia player would do it.
Personally, as scum, I love policy lynches that aren't "Lynch All Liars". If the town lynches based on policy and not behaviors and inconsistencies then mafia can hide behind the policy lynch and kill townies day in and day out.
There's no serious reason for a townie to abstain from voting besides the fear of voting for the wrong person or a general lack of interest in the game, something that is less common with scum. Newer scum players also have a team to advise them on how to act whereas a newer or less confident townie can only rely on his or her own judgment.
Are scum given safe roleclaims or specific town-aligned role names?
Two things here:
1) Black who are your top reads in the game so far?
Personally, as scum, I love policy lynches that aren't "Lynch All Liars".
2) Why would you as scum dislike lynch all liars over other types of policy lynches?
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On August 31 2012 14:30 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 11:58 Hapahauli wrote:On August 31 2012 11:40 Hopeless1der wrote:
Zeph is likely to take care of any actual lurking, but Hapa is right. If I'm too silent for too long, I expect to hear about it, preferably before I'm policy lynched for it. I'll apply the same principle to everyone else in the game. Actually waaaaait a minute here. Are you suggesting that you'll be lurky or something? Surely you shouldn't be worried about "reminders" or whatnot if you're indeed pro-town and intend to post? ##Vote Hopeless1der I'm saying I don't want to die, least of all to a policy lynch. I'd anticipate that most. if not all the players, would agree with that general sentiment. If people think I'm lurking, I don't want them to just lynch me with no discussion, I'd rather have the opportunity to make my thoughts known so that I could at least give the town something useful besides my flip. I want to make the most informed decision on who to lynch, instead of lynching by policy and getting very little out of it.
I think Hopeless is saying something quite townish here. He's saying that he hopes people will warn him if he's lurking instead of just hammering him. Hapa, why are you turning his call for a warning shot into a suggestion that he will lurk? This is twisting something perfectly townish into a scum read, and then voting him on it.
You weren't like this in XXIII (when you flipped Cop), indeed, there, you refrained from making a D1 vote until the very last 2 hours prior to lynch. And in this game, there are a whole bunch more lurkers/bad townies at this point in time for you to list out/go after than Hopeless or any of your shortlisted names in XXIII.
So why would you go for it this time?
FoS Hapahauli
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Checking out of this thread. Will be back tomorrow morning.
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On August 31 2012 14:43 BlackMamba24 wrote:
Because unlike other policy lynches, lying is something only mafia need to do. Town lurks just as often as scum do, the vote abstaining thing doesn't mean much, but when someone gets caught in an outright lie they need to justify it rigorously and if they can't they are probably scum. The only time I wouldn't immediately vote for someone caught lying is in some really really strange closed setup. I remember in Arkham Asylum scum there were probably more lying townies than scum because people try to set traps with their roles and it never works.
Lying is more directly meaningful. If you vote just for lurkers, the mafia can congregate and influence the vote to lynch a town-aligned lurker so I don't think it helps much. You have to consider content first.
Anyway, it's too early for me to say if I have any reads at all. I've yet to read anything that has jumped out at me.
I think you'll probably need to mix meta reads into this as well. I played with Lvdr twice, and one time he lied heavily as town (he called it "faking a read to generate D1 discussion"); the other time he didn't lie and was town as well.
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On August 31 2012 14:50 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 14:43 BlackMamba24 wrote:
Because unlike other policy lynches, lying is something only mafia need to do. Town lurks just as often as scum do, the vote abstaining thing doesn't mean much, but when someone gets caught in an outright lie they need to justify it rigorously and if they can't they are probably scum. The only time I wouldn't immediately vote for someone caught lying is in some really really strange closed setup. I remember in Arkham Asylum scum there were probably more lying townies than scum because people try to set traps with their roles and it never works.
Lying is more directly meaningful. If you vote just for lurkers, the mafia can congregate and influence the vote to lynch a town-aligned lurker so I don't think it helps much. You have to consider content first.
Anyway, it's too early for me to say if I have any reads at all. I've yet to read anything that has jumped out at me. I think you'll probably need to mix meta reads into this as well. I played with Lvdr twice, and one time he lied heavily as town (he called it "faking a read to generate D1 discussion"); the other time he didn't lie and was town as well.
But if scum wagon a townie lurker, doesn't that also expose them all conveniently onto one wagon once the lurker flips green? Are you suggesting that scum here might decide to put all their votes on one lynch?
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On August 31 2012 14:53 BlackMamba24 wrote:
I've lied as town before, but voting and pushing someone who lies gets you somewhere at least. If that person is town, mafia will likely be the ones pushing LAL the hardest saying that no matter how he justifies it town would never lie and we should lynch them.
In any case, lies deserve more analysis and suspicion than someone not posting for a couple hours. That's all. When I say I could get behind LAL as a policy lynch, I think people should vote and pressure people caught lying to force them to defend themselves and post often. That's the worst case scenario for scum anyway.
Fair enough. You still haven't posted any reads D1 yet. We're more than 12 hours in. What are your reads?
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On August 31 2012 15:00 BlackMamba24 wrote:
You'll know what they are when I have any.
Why don't you have any right now?
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If you don't post your reads soon I will be forced to vote you. This has always been my policy.
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Where are node and mementoss?
Also, Solarsail seems to be trying to skulk through an active discussion. I don't really like that.
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On September 01 2012 00:56 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 00:33 Shady Sands wrote:
Where are node and mementoss?
Also, Solarsail seems to be trying to skulk through an active discussion. I don't really like that. Speaking of skulking through an active discussion...
I have an excuse, being at work and all.
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On September 01 2012 01:21 Mementoss wrote:
I'm not too fond of the way ghost has been defending mamba at every chance he gets. It's fine to defend a player if you don't think they're town but leave it at that. Cause when he comes back to the thread he can just mirror the things that ghost said to defend him, or otherwise there is at least a lot less pressure on him to give an adquete response about his case and such. That being said, most of ghosts talk so far has been on this, so I would like to ask him if he had to make a vote now, who would it be and why?
My opinion on this BMB fiasco is that he seems a bit scummy to me. His posts just rub me the wrong way and his case was bad. I'm not going to go much farther into this as it's already been fleshed out by many but I'll be interested in seeing a response from him. The way he talks about his personal scum preferences is odd, and the question to the hosts could just be a scam to make himself look town, when he actually knew the answer because he received this fake role. I think the case was bad and forced from a scum perspective because if you look through his early filter he realized he was talking a lot, but it was purely filler, and was scared of getting called out on it soon, so he decided to make a case up so no one would call him out for "contributing without actually saying much".
I agree that Risen's play is not his normal town play, of guns blazing and doing crazy shit to get reactions out.
If we are going to set the tone here that lurking is unacceptable as town we might as well start day one, and try to set ourselves up for a winning situation later in the game. Also based on his less than stellar game history... So for now..
##Vote: Mr.Zentor
Also I think that people should be giving their gut thoughts and put in a vote at the start of each day, so we can discuss our way through the best person for the lynch throughout the day. People don't seem to realize how short a 24 hour cycle is, so getting a vote in ASAP is important for discussion and consolidation on voting out a scum. Obviously this is impossible to do on day 1, but I think it should be done for further days.
This post makes absolutely no sense. Momen can you further explain?
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Hapa what's your read on the Momen case?
My read on Momen is scum but I want to give him a chance to respond to the accusations before voting him.
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Alright, enough of this bullshit.
## Vote Node
Until he posts. I'm also amenable to a wagon on Zentor.
As for Momen, I want to his response. As for BlackMamba, I haven't had a chance to read through his filter yet. Will check thread again 5 hours from now.
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On September 01 2012 04:59 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 04:47 strongandbig wrote:On September 01 2012 04:25 marvellosity wrote:
ok it's not been discussed at all, but it keeps being pushed.
s&b seems to think that Mamba's case which is full of crap is less scummy than Hapa's pressure vote on Hopeless1der, and it makes no sense to me at all. He says he's not happy to vote someone based on one bad case, but is extremely happy to be suspicious of Hapa pressuring Hopeless.
Why this disparity? Marv you were obsing ptp. VE and wiggles both made cases that were just as crappy as this one, I called them both scum, and they both flipped town. I just am not convinced that making bad cases is a good scum tell anymore. Like, does his case push a scum agenda or sew confusion? No, to me it just looks bad. It is weird that blackmamba just disappeared. If he leaves his vote on hapahauli without making a new case then he'll jump to the top of my scum list. And one other thing - I had been looking at hapa's vote on hopeless as "I think you are scum and want to kill you." That's how I vote - if I vote early in the day like that, I expect everyone to understand from that "I really mean what I'm saying right now, I'm serious about it." Like I said last time, it makes no sense when you think of it as meaning that, but when you change how you're thinking of it to a "pressure vote" it sounds better. Alright. You and ghost were both doing the same thing effectively so the explanation is reasonable. I don't wanna lynch Mementoss. He's cute. The thing with Blackmamba - the case was bad, ok. But if it was to cause discussion, then fine. Except he hasn't been around to actually deal with the discussion, and I find that scummy. I'd fucking love to policy lynch Zentor but annoyingly I can't quite bring myself to  ##Vote: Blackmamba24
y no mention of node?
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Hi guys, I'm back. Given that Node is going to get modkilled:
##Unvote
I read Risen's case on me and I like it. It's long, which earns points in my book. That being said, I disagree with its conclusion that I am scum, since I'm not. I'll respond to it in a bit, but first and foremost, I'd like everyone to focus on the scummiest player so far:
Ghost_403
Here's how Ghost kicks off his scumhunt:
On August 31 2012 22:35 ghost_403 wrote:
I agree with Hapa: BMB's case was lackluster at best. Hapa came into the thread, posted "I'm town, flavor sucks", and that's it. I really don't see that as some sort of scum tell on his part.
BMB: I'm curious. Has anyone else in the thread stuck out to you as playing scummy?
Marv: What do you think about BMB's case against Hapa?
Risen's play this game is a little off from the Risen we all know and love. Not sure exactly why as of yet. Could be it's just been a while since he's played.
Completely fluffy. First agrees that the case is lackluster, but no tell. Then asks BMB for more reads while he himself posts no reads. Then asks Marv for reads on BMB. Then offers a null tell on Risen. I essence... much ado about nothing.
Then defends BMB from Hapa in an effort to look active. But again, no scumreads.
On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote:
Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.
@BMB: You are DrH, right?
Then again a no-content post, just a defense of his own actions.
On August 31 2012 23:22 ghost_403 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote:
Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.
@BMB: You are DrH, right? Why are you attacking Hapa for pressuring a pile of shit case? I'm not attacking, I'm telling him to take a step back and evaluate whether he thinks that BMB's case was due to (a) him being scum or (b) him writing up a case 5 hours into the game. The two of those are very different, and I don't see evidence in his analysis of him thinking that question through.
Then Ghost goes huge WIFOM. He even lampshades it.
On August 31 2012 23:29 ghost_403 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 23:26 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 23:22 ghost_403 wrote:On August 31 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote:
Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.
@BMB: You are DrH, right? Why are you attacking Hapa for pressuring a pile of shit case? I'm not attacking, I'm telling him to take a step back and evaluate whether he thinks that BMB's case was due to (a) him being scum or (b) him writing up a case 5 hours into the game. The two of those are very different, and I don't see evidence in his analysis of him thinking that question through. I'm curious, because by your own reasoning 1) DrH made a bad case 2) DrH is a very good player does it not make more sense that a bad case from someone you think is good is scummier than a bad case from a nublet? WIFOM mode engage! Don't you think that someone as good as BMB would, as scum, be more careful to not make a bad case? I see this as BMB just being aggressive and trying to get the ball moving. I can't imagine him being quite so bold and careless as scum. Do you think that his case is really a scum-tell?
Still no case at this point. We have Hapa, Hopeless, Memento, BMB, and myself all making lots of noise but he somehow seems to think everyone is just a confused townie. Which would make a lot of sense if he had prior knowledge as scum.
On August 31 2012 23:38 ghost_403 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 23:34 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 23:29 ghost_403 wrote:On August 31 2012 23:26 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 23:22 ghost_403 wrote:On August 31 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote:
Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.
@BMB: You are DrH, right? Why are you attacking Hapa for pressuring a pile of shit case? I'm not attacking, I'm telling him to take a step back and evaluate whether he thinks that BMB's case was due to (a) him being scum or (b) him writing up a case 5 hours into the game. The two of those are very different, and I don't see evidence in his analysis of him thinking that question through. I'm curious, because by your own reasoning 1) DrH made a bad case 2) DrH is a very good player does it not make more sense that a bad case from someone you think is good is scummier than a bad case from a nublet? WIFOM mode engage! Don't you think that someone as good as BMB would, as scum, be more careful to not make a bad case? I see this as BMB just being aggressive and trying to get the ball moving. I can't imagine him being quite so bold and careless as scum. Do you think that his case is really a scum-tell? yeah, ok, let's not go down the WIFOM road. Suffice to say, when someone does something bad, "he should know not to do something bad" has always struck me as an inadequate way of explaining it away. Black's case is certainly scummier than what he was making the case on (hapa's play). Conversely, do you see that case as a town-tell? My spreadsheet has BMB marked down as scum due to that case, but I'm not convinced on it enough to vote him yet. BMB is a good player, and lynching him based on a bad case he made this early on Day 1 is terrible play. I'm certainly going to be watching him closely. What I would really like from him is for him to come back and tell us his thoughts on everyone's reactions to his case. That would tell me a lot more about his alignment than what he's already said in thread.
Whoa! We have a scumread now! Everyone drop socks and grab your throttles, because after half a day of posting Ghost says BMB is scum. Except...
Don't you think that someone as good as BMB would, as scum, be more careful to not make a bad case?
I see this as BMB just being aggressive and trying to get the ball moving. I can't imagine him being quite so bold and careless as scum.
Do you think that his case is really a scum-tell?
This is what Ghost posted in his very own previous post. What? Classic case of scum forgetting what he wrote earlier and just trying to agree with people.
Then he tries to split hairs about BMB (I think he's scum but I don't see his posting behavior/casemaking as scum!) then asks people what they think about BMB.
On September 01 2012 00:48 ghost_403 wrote:
Gut reaction. What are your thoughts on BMB's alignment?
Then says he hasn't found a scum candidate yet:
On September 01 2012 03:15 ghost_403 wrote:
Well, since I'd rather lynch scum today, I haven't quite made up my mind. Plenty of town reads, but haven't found a good scum candidate quite yet. I'll let you know when I find one.
But he'd be happy with a MMToss lynch in the very next post. What?
On September 01 2012 03:20 ghost_403 wrote:
Actually, I'd be pretty happy with a MMToss lynch. Still waiting for S+B to chime in.
Playing mafia while TI2 is on is really hard.
Then he votes MMToss as soon as HiroPro makes a big case on MMToss. But there's no independent analysis from ghost as to why he's making this vote as opposed to BMB (who he has marked down as scum in his spreadsheet.)
Then he offers a defense of his actions:
On September 01 2012 03:49 ghost_403 wrote:
Palmar being AFK is probably due to the TI2, I'm withholding judgement on him until he comes back. Can't change my mind on Risen until he comes back and starts acting more or less Risen. Marv's disappearance is disconcerting, but probably not alignment indicative.
I never said BMB was not mafia, I just said that I'm not ready to lynch him over a single bad case he had presented. I'm still waiting for him to come back into the thread and respond to what's happened. His response is going to determine my view of his alignment.
Still not quite sure of what I think of S+B. I haven't seen a scum player make a legit fakeclaim for a long time, so based on the metagame, I'm inclined to believe him when he claimed miller. However, you're right, his posts have been a little bit off. That's why I really want him to chime in on the MMToss situation.
Every single read he gives is null or townie. Again, no justification for the MMToss vote and then keeps splitting hairs over BMB. He asks other people to look at MMToss (gotta keep that scum wagon rolling, yo) but then doesn't offer any justification for the vote himself.
I find Ghost's entire train of reasoning on Mementoss consistent with a scum with prior knowledge of alignments, trying to stay active without posting real content.
Therefore: ## Vote Ghost_403
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Is everyone just ignoring my fucking case on ghost?
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On September 01 2012 08:05 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 08:03 Palmar wrote:
hey I'll be voting whatever ghost_403 is voting because I think he's town. why do you think he is town?
What the heck? How about this for a question: Palmar, do you think you are town? If you think you are town, why don't you vote whoever you yourself think is scum?
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On September 01 2012 08:05 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 07:58 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 01 2012 07:51 Hapahauli wrote:On September 01 2012 07:25 BlackMamba24 wrote:
...
Anyway can anyone familiar with strongandbigs meta tell me if it is normal for him, as town, to make huge fucking posts immediately and add a ton of bravado like that into anything he says cause if not I'm saying we should lynch him. Pardon my skepticism, but is this really a scumtell? Even if he historically makes smaller posts as town, I can't imagine why making larger posts would make him mafia, even on a meta-basis. One scum almost always takes it upon themselves to make large posts early on and establish themselves as very very "pro-town". They love buzzwords like "anti-town" and other stupid things like that. I just can't see any reason for a townie to spend that much time, early in the game, establishing their townieness unless there is a mayoral election or something like that. The fakeclaim is throwing me off. There's also that contradiction that you yourself pointed out. I can understand why a scum player would defend me as well, they might be thinking there's no reason to go after me early on and get OMGUS'd or get my attention when they can kill me at night but I'm not really that good. My town meta is to pin the entire mafia team Day 2 and then vote for everyone else instead. Or maybe it's not a fake claim and I'm actually a miller? And I want to deal with that and get it out of the way in a game full of detectives? Occam's razor, man. One terrible case is excusable, but two is too much to be a coincidence. I mean seriously, what you're saying is that I tried too hard to help town out when I told everyone that I'm a miller, and therefore I must be scum? In what world does that make sense?
Strong: the Green role is called Detective, since that's the theme name for a Death Note Mini. (I wouldn't have chosen that theme name if I ran things but that's a moot point.)
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On September 01 2012 07:59 HiroPro wrote:
hey shady, I'd like if you could make a response to MT's case.
Sure.
MT's case on me is based on a misread of my reasons for calling him scum. He thinks I'm calling him scum for pushing a lynch lurker policy. I'm not. I never had a chance to offer my reasoning on calling him scum; that's why I never voted him.
My prior scumread on him was based on his "all-over-the-place" case. He's explained that already. My read on him is closer to null now.
As for his accusations here:
Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 04:40 Shady Sands wrote:
Alright, enough of this bullshit.
## Vote Node
Until he posts. I'm also amenable to a wagon on Zentor.
As for Momen, I want to his response. As for BlackMamba, I haven't had a chance to read through his filter yet. Will check thread again 5 hours from now. Wait isn't this also what the case on me said. Voting someone to get discussion out of someone? So Shady is being very hypocritical calling me scum for things he is doing as well. He doesn't even know BMB's filter, its only been 12 pages for the whole game, and BMB has been the main discussion for the whole time. He doesn't know about the main day 1 discussion? Does he care? He asks me for a response, but never specifies what this response is. He also says he will wagon on Zentor. Wow. So he has a scum read on me, but hes willing to vote on Node or Zentor, and has BMB in his mind. Wow Shady is sure keeping his options open.. So MKfuba you better have a better reason for voting me, other than I seem indifferent for who gets lynched, when you have Slim Shady over here voting anyone who is the popular choice at the time. So everyone who voted me, why don't you explain why you think I'm scum, rather than just regergitate what I posted and tell people what you think it meant? How is what I posted scum motivated etc?
I voted Node because I was pissed that he wasn't making a single post in a game with a 24 hour day. That's not just anti-town play; it's pretty much playing against town wincon. As for Zentor, he was active lurking at the time. Didn't like how he was posting, so I thought I'd nudge him. Wasn't worth a vote yet. As for BMB, I honestly hadn't read through his filter yet, but people kept bringing him up in the discussion so I thought I should. Now that I have, I have a mild town read on BMB.
Since I honestly hadn't been able to keep up with the game, I thought I should just lay some names on the table. If you've seen my activity levels both as scum and town before, you'll know that if I'm in the thread I'm usually posting or prodding.
Anyhow, we need to lynch Ghost. He's pretty much been lurking about the thread and seeming active, but posting in a completely unproductive and "trying to gain towncred" manner. Furthermore, his MMToss vote is just bad. It's almost there to make it seem like he's not sheeping, when in reality he is.
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Seriously guys. Discussing Palmar's WIFOM is going to get us nowhere because people can chew on WIFOM all day without putting their necks on the line and offering reads.
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On September 01 2012 08:22 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 08:19 Risen wrote:On September 01 2012 08:18 BlackMamba24 wrote:
lol @ people voting for palmar You wanna actually say something useful? Oh just hopping on the Palmar is Palmar is Palmar lets give him a wash so he can bullshit every game he's in. You're voting for Palmar because you dislike him, not because you think he's scum. This doesn't even warrant a discussion. It's just noise.
Are you BMB?
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On September 01 2012 08:23 Hapahauli wrote:You said that you're getting voted because you're criticizing the lurker-policy lynch. Oh whoops wait no ppl are voting for you 'cause of your shitty case. Misrespresentation at its finest. Can we invoke lynch all liars here?
Hapa can you read my ghost case? Please?
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On September 01 2012 08:20 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 08:18 Risen wrote:On September 01 2012 08:15 HiroPro wrote:On September 01 2012 08:14 strongandbig wrote:On September 01 2012 08:03 Palmar wrote:
##vote mementoss ##vote palmarLike, the number of times people have told me that "being lazy" is palmar's scum meta... I can't really accept missing the whole first day and then jumping back in with the most random freaking unreasoned explicit sheep vote I've ever seen. I'm not really concerned at the moment with "viable candidates". I don't think any of the main cases are stronger than my gut reaction to what palmar just did. If this is "a trap" palmar, then consider yourself successful, you caught me. By playing as scummy as possible, you trapped me and convinced me that you are scum. Huzzah. Now, I'm going to bed. See you guys tomorrow if I live. town Palmar..... LIV Hiro read what I just posted. Scum Palmar would want you to think just that. Then again, maybe it's town Palmar being town Palmar. Who knows? He's doing it because he can, because in the past he's been able to get away with bad play like this. People like you enable him to have free reign in games, regardless of alignment. I am not lynching the best scumhunter in this game because he likes to troll d1. We lynch him later if he doesn't find scum, not because we don't like the way he plays.
Hiro, now that I've done what you asked me to and responded to MT, what is your read on Ghost?
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On September 01 2012 08:28 Risen wrote:
Ok I'm done. Nothing ever changes in these games because you all just let shitty play happeen. Meta shift from Risen inc. I'm going to start trolling and then once in a while I'll post an awesome case so I get supported by anecdote.
Noooooooooooooooo quit flaming people and read my case, stay rational. I fucking hate trolls too, but leaning on them D1 usually only gives scum cover for a mislynch
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On September 01 2012 08:19 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 08:15 HiroPro wrote:On September 01 2012 08:14 strongandbig wrote:On September 01 2012 08:03 Palmar wrote:
##vote mementoss ##vote palmarLike, the number of times people have told me that "being lazy" is palmar's scum meta... I can't really accept missing the whole first day and then jumping back in with the most random freaking unreasoned explicit sheep vote I've ever seen. I'm not really concerned at the moment with "viable candidates". I don't think any of the main cases are stronger than my gut reaction to what palmar just did. If this is "a trap" palmar, then consider yourself successful, you caught me. By playing as scummy as possible, you trapped me and convinced me that you are scum. Huzzah. Now, I'm going to bed. See you guys tomorrow if I live. town Palmar..... LIV Lol I forgot that game, he clearly has me red on his map from day 1. The difference between this game and that game is huge though. That game, he probably wanted to act useless so he didn't get killed night 1 by scum, and than come into the thread with some good reads when more information is available. There is no excuse this game though because its controlled completely by lynches with no night phase. So it's really confusing to me why he would join the game and play useless.
MMT: you posted a little bit about how bad the cases on you were. I used what you posted and expanded it on Ghost. Can you please read that case?
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On September 01 2012 08:27 MrZentor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 08:20 HiroPro wrote:On September 01 2012 08:18 Risen wrote:On September 01 2012 08:15 HiroPro wrote:On September 01 2012 08:14 strongandbig wrote:On September 01 2012 08:03 Palmar wrote:
##vote mementoss ##vote palmarLike, the number of times people have told me that "being lazy" is palmar's scum meta... I can't really accept missing the whole first day and then jumping back in with the most random freaking unreasoned explicit sheep vote I've ever seen. I'm not really concerned at the moment with "viable candidates". I don't think any of the main cases are stronger than my gut reaction to what palmar just did. If this is "a trap" palmar, then consider yourself successful, you caught me. By playing as scummy as possible, you trapped me and convinced me that you are scum. Huzzah. Now, I'm going to bed. See you guys tomorrow if I live. town Palmar..... LIV Hiro read what I just posted. Scum Palmar would want you to think just that. Then again, maybe it's town Palmar being town Palmar. Who knows? He's doing it because he can, because in the past he's been able to get away with bad play like this. People like you enable him to have free reign in games, regardless of alignment. I am not lynching the best scumhunter in this game because he likes to troll d1. We lynch him later if he doesn't find scum, not because we don't like the way he plays. No. If somebody acts like mafia, they get lynched. I'm not going to delay the lynching of a mafia, just because you're afraid of lynching a veteran.
Zentor, where have you been all day? Post a case or else I'm going to push for a vigi hit/D2 lynch on you.
Also read my case on Ghost. Everyone get moving and read that case.
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On September 01 2012 08:31 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 08:27 Hapahauli wrote:
And can we cut out the shit about Palmar? Exactly what does this do to catch scum? Grow a pair and vote him or don't. Oh whoops. ##unvote
##vote: PalmarActively lurking. Trolling. Thinking he's better than us. Screws off if you're town I'm tunneling the shit out of you every game I play with you until you change.
Risen: if Palmar flips town, and everyone votes him, exactly what do we learn from that lynch?
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DrH can you please use one account while posting? Makes digging through your filter unnecessarily difficult when you swtich back and forth between your alt and your main acct
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On September 01 2012 09:13 Hapahauli wrote:I'm going to keep my vote on Palmar for a bit. As it stands, there are a couple of people I want to hear more from before I decide what to do with my vote - namely those that haven't voted yet. I'll give em an hour. Relooking at some filters, I'm growing a bit wary of HiroPro, and his actions seem to follow a scum thought-process. - He enters the thread and builds a "case" on MMtoss. This "case" is a re-hash of most of what I pointed out earlier in the post.
- What seems scummy to me is how quickly he dropped his case. You'd think that a townie would have a bit more confirmation bias? But he drops it the second MMtoss posts his defense to HiroPro for his MrZentor/Hapa scumteam. That seems like a really weak reason to drop your main scumread.
- He spends the next few hours making one-liners and trying to contribute, when really not. Take a look at his filter.
Thoughts?
I'm actually in substantial agreement here. After rereading the voting rules (first-to-plurality) I had a strong scumread on the three wagoners of MMToss--Mkfuba, Ghost, and Hiro, and I dug through their three filters and found the scummiest one to post on.
This has been reconfirmed by the fact that Hiro and Mkfuba have all rescinded their reads.
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On September 01 2012 09:19 Node wrote:I'm going to vote for BlackMamba. Here's why: Show nested quote +One scum almost always takes it upon themselves to make large posts early on and establish themselves as very very "pro-town". They love buzzwords like "anti-town" and other stupid things like that. I just can't see any reason for a townie to spend that much time, early in the game, establishing their townieness unless there is a mayoral election or something like that. This is such an incredibly wrong and scummy statement that it's unbelievable. Think about what it means for just a second. Mamba is saying that going out of your way to establish your townieness is unnecessary -- even scummy. It's even one of the first rules in Ver's guide: establish your own innocence in order to create a good atmospere and make it easier to find scum. (forgive me for not citing it directly at this moment; my resources are limited) Now, why would he want to enforce this? Only scum could possibly want to establish an atmosphere where showing your innocence is a bad thing. There's also the insinuation that claiming self-aware miller is a poor choice, the questionable case against Hapa (dismissed with an "I wasn't-really-trying" excuse), and the statement that voting for someone doing as little as Palmar would actually be a bad idea. All of this comes together to show somebody that isn't trying to establish a pro-town atmosphere, is pushing the wrong targets, and is definitely scum. ##vote BlackMamba24
Where the fuck where you today?
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On September 01 2012 09:20 Hapahauli wrote:
Interesting... I post suspicions against Hiro, then two posters throw down two votes against two different players. Coincidence?
It's getting close to deadline, everything's going to be cramped.
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So at this point I'm think Ghost is trying to push MMToss as a long-term mislynch. MMToss has been forced to vote Palmar, Palmar flips town, then Ghost jumps all over MMToss for the second mislynch.
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Seriously, Ghost, Hiropro, and Mkfuba are probably the scumteam. You heard it here first.
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On September 01 2012 09:22 Hapahauli wrote:
Up for swinging a vote against HP Shady?
Sure.
## Unvote
## Vote Hiropro
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On September 01 2012 09:17 Mementoss wrote:
Alright I gotta go for the night
##Unvote: ShadySands
##Vote: Palmar
I know I'm town, and me not dieing gives a hell of a lot better chances of actually killing scum, rather than killing someone actually generating discussion towards finding scum.
@hapa, Apparently Hiro usually posts one-liners all the time, but your first 2 bullets are good.
If I die, kill ghost or blackmamba.
MM Vote Hiro, let's this wagon going.
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ebwop let's get this wagon going.
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On September 01 2012 09:26 BlackMamba24 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 09:25 Hapahauli wrote:On September 01 2012 09:24 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 01 2012 09:17 Hapahauli wrote:On September 01 2012 09:16 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 01 2012 09:13 Hapahauli wrote:I'm going to keep my vote on Palmar for a bit. As it stands, there are a couple of people I want to hear more from before I decide what to do with my vote - namely those that haven't voted yet. I'll give em an hour. Relooking at some filters, I'm growing a bit wary of HiroPro, and his actions seem to follow a scum thought-process. - He enters the thread and builds a "case" on MMtoss. This "case" is a re-hash of most of what I pointed out earlier in the post.
- What seems scummy to me is how quickly he dropped his case. You'd think that a townie would have a bit more confirmation bias? But he drops it the second MMtoss posts his defense to HiroPro for his MrZentor/Hapa scumteam. That seems like a really weak reason to drop your main scumread.
- He spends the next few hours making one-liners and trying to contribute, when really not. Take a look at his filter.
Thoughts? That's a bit misleading. He was not convinced at all by MMtoss' first defense and only unvoted after MMtoss cleared it up further. If he was looking for a reason to drop his case, he would have done it sooner than that. MMtoss later addresses HiroPro's main suspicion and the answer satisfied him. That's the interesting part - he tunnels MMtoss until I explicitly point out his "first defense" (the longer post I take it?) to HiroPro. Then HiroPro posts that he's waiting for MMtoss to respond to him. Then he immediately drops his read after MMtoss responds. That's not suspicious. He was saying MMtoss' defense wasn't adequate because he didn't address the point. Then when MMtoss addressed the point, he was satisfied. What's scummy about that? We can't have another bandwagon switch right now, the vote is close and there's not a lot of time left in the day. Because it was too easy. After tunneling MMtoss the entire game, HP was satisfied with just that post? Seriously? I call BS. Why not? tunneling the entire game was like all of a few hours and it seemed to satisfy you so why is it "too easy" when HiroPro likes his answer and not when you like his answer?
What?
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On September 01 2012 09:29 BlackMamba24 wrote:
Your whole "case" literally boils down to the fact that he changed his vote after the person he pressured defended himself, which is basically what you did, putting suspicion on MMToss then retracting it when he defended himself, except you were satisfied even quicker than he was so i really don't understand why people are changing votes at all
since when is it scummy anyway to change your mind
"too easy" is meaningless what does that even mean
it's not like MMtoss defense was so stellar he couldn't have continued pushing him if it was really his scum agenda
Except Hapa never formalized his PoV on mementoss into a case or laid a vote on him. He just agreed with someone's read on Mementoss, and that's it. That's a heck of a lot weaker than making a 400 word post on him and voting.
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Btw, ghost, did you even read my case on you at all? Or are you going to just ignore it like the scum you are?
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On September 01 2012 10:21 mkfuba07 wrote:
The vote spread is identical to NMM XXIV, where the top two votes were both townies. After that game it was pointed out that if one of the top votes had been scum, it's likely that there would have been a stronger defense of that candidate. The difference between the two games is that in this case, there was a stronger defense of one candidate. I think that there may have been scum support behind the switch off of Mementoss. The entire situation just feels... wrong to me. I feel manipulated and that always makes me suspicious. I said that he had convinced me of his innocence, but he still sticks out as my top scumread (Yes, I've been caught in a "lie"). I know what effects this can have on my already crappy reputation in this game, but I'm going to...
##Vote Mementoss
This is just stupid. The only people who swapped off MMToss were you and HP. how could there be scum support?
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On September 01 2012 10:37 BlackMamba24 wrote:
I've been selected to be L's right hand and everyone needs to read the day post
Apparently that means something. I'm restating it. I don't know if I get special powers or whatever now but that's a thing that's just happened.
Probably means that the Cop is going to get modkilled.
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ebwop and you just got appointed deputy.
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Black, even if you're not convinced by Hapa's line of reasoning for a vote, if you do become Cop, please, please, please check HP.
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Mods: is Solar going to get modkilled
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On September 01 2012 11:23 Solarsail wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 11:21 Hapahauli wrote:On September 01 2012 11:13 Solarsail wrote:
##Vote: Risen because Palmar Wait what? What does this even do? Leaves a statement of my intent on the voting record. Since all your choices for lynches are completely terrible.
How the fuck is HP a terrible choice for a lynch? The guy posted zero reads and then finally returned to Mementoss because he can't make up his mind. This, in spite of the fact that it is okay not to vote for anyone. Basically he goes to Mementoss in order to cement the folks on Palmar into not jumping wagons.
C'mon town can't you see how cynically he's manipulating all of you? And you guys let him do this?
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On September 01 2012 11:22 mkfuba07 wrote:
You'll have to vote for MMToss at this point to save Palmar, I believe.
Yeah mkfuba, you keep manipulating votes away from you and your two scumbuddies HP and Ghost.
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On September 01 2012 11:35 Risen wrote:
Well I can't say I'm surprised. Hope you learn your lesson.
Anyhow, what real scumreads do you have?
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The following "normal" roles may be present in a form or another: Alignment Cop, Vigilante, Medic, Mason, Traitor, Godfather, Veteran, Miller.
So is the suspicious detective the miller or the traitor?
Miller is townie that looks scum
Traitor is scum that does not know who his/her scumbuddies are (I could be wrong here)
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Also why was Hapa killed by L? WTF is going on here.
What the fuck game did I just sign up for I thought this was a normal mafia game?
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On September 01 2012 12:58 BlackMamba24 wrote:
L, in your next message to me can you please indicate whether you know the alignment of your "Servant". I'm pretty sure you do but if you can fit it in as an aside it would be very helpful to me.
L can you just post shit in the thread instead of PMing people? This doesn't help town at all, if you're town aligned
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Also, with Hapa gone, I strongly encourage any cops or blues to act on HiroPro. The guy has to be scum.
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Can I have a votecount? I want to see who's wagoning SnB
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I get a feeling D1, scum wagoned MMT, D2, scum are wagoning SnB
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Correction I'm not sure if scum are wagoning SnB. Flipping through the thread it just seemed like everyone was piling in on him, but now I read his roleclaim and it doesn't look right. brb
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After reading through the thread, here are my thoughts.
On SnB: I would suggest the cop check him. Hunting someone off a single claim like that as opposed to actual scummy behavior is a null tell, in my opinion, especially given that this game has rules so different from a normal mafia game. Heck, I'm not even sure about how the whole "suspicious detective" and "right arm detective" mechanic is supposed to work. It could be entirely possible that SnB got a different miller subtype than what Palmar got, or that Palmar was a traitor and not a miller, or he was a townie that was set up by a Mafia Framer with delayed flip.
On Ghost: I'm glad to see a consensus forming around Ghost. His behavior today has been highly suspicious:
On September 02 2012 00:23 ghost_403 wrote:
Hey guys!
What's going on in this thread!
Today is crazy for me, so I'm going to be making one post today, and that's it.
Thoughts on NKs: I'm thinking Hapa was a town KP due to the flavor, and BMB was the scum KP. Knowing this is not particularly enlightening. I don't put any more faith in BMB's reads (or any less in Hapa's) because of this. Obviously, BMB was killed because he was acting very town. Look through his filter and use it as a town biased viewpoint. Don't ignore what dead townies have to say.
I can't believe the town let Palmar be lynched Day 1. Sure, he was useless, but seriously?
Town reads: MrZentor (unfortunately), Shady Sands (double unfortunately) and Node (WTF?????). Check out Node's previous games. In Hammer, he did basically the same thing, where he contributed next to nothing throughout all of Day 1, and he rolled Vig in that game. In this game, he was gone for most of the day, but when he came back he was opinionated and aggressive. Lurking scum would be much more apologetic.
Zentor, start using your head. And Shady, read the fucking thread.
Scum: MMToss, Risen, and S+B. I'm not convinced that's the scum team by any stretch, but those are the people in the thread I think are acting scummy. (Side note: I have no idea how many scum there are in this game at all. I'm assuming there is a team?) MMToss is a carry over from yesterday. No part of how the day played out makes me change my opinion on him. S+B, I'll comment on that at the end (new stuff in thread between when I started writing and finished writing).
As far as Risen, Node is right. We have to hold him accountable for his part in the Palmar lynch. As town, Risen is aggressive and abrasive. As scum, Risen worships chaos (See TLM LIII). This is looking a lot more like scum Risen. Pressure him today and watch what happens.
Null reads: Hiro (leaning town), Marv (leaning town), mkfuba (leaning newbie town), and hopeless1der (leaning scum). I don't have enough to really read any of these players. pre-edit: marv's interactions now with S+B are pushing me to place him more in the town category than the scum category. If S+B flips town, he goes down to scum.
Looks like S+B probably fakeclaimed miller. Ballsy play on his part. This pushes Hiro to town read, and confirms what I suspected on S+B.
##vote strongandbig
And now, I'm off! Don't do anything stupid while I'm gone.
This is all he posts. He sorts everyone into reads, then just states that he believe S&B fakeclaimed and therefore he votes. Again, a vote without justification.
Two days in a row.
He also tells town to pressure Risen over the Palmar lynch, which looks to me like scum trying to set town up for a second mislynch after stumbling on D1. Why not blame yourself, Ghost, for offering no independent analysis on why you voted MMToss?
Ghost seems intent on playing a very tight game where he offers as little of his own analysis on the people he votes for as possible. While not foolproof, this is the strongest scumtell I see in the thread. Therefore I am going to say that he's scum.
## Vote Ghost_403
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ebwop formatting
## Unvote
## Vote Ghost_403
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Who hasn't voted yet? Can we get a votecount?
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On September 02 2012 08:32 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 08:10 Shady Sands wrote:
After reading through the thread, here are my thoughts.
On SnB: I would suggest the cop check him. Hunting someone off a single claim like that as opposed to actual scummy behavior is a null tell, in my opinion, especially given that this game has rules so different from a normal mafia game. Heck, I'm not even sure about how the whole "suspicious detective" and "right arm detective" mechanic is supposed to work. It could be entirely possible that SnB got a different miller subtype than what Palmar got, or that Palmar was a traitor and not a miller, or he was a townie that was set up by a Mafia Framer with delayed flip.
Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 05:41 HiroPro wrote:On September 02 2012 02:01 strongandbig wrote:
How about this - we kill ghost today because he's scum. Hiro or some other DT checks me tonight. I come back town and we realize I'm telling the truth? No 1. You're lying scum 2. I wasn't given a check today to waste on you. 3. I'm probably getting shot tomorrow. Hi, please read the thread before you say stuff like this. There are no framers - and that part (Mafia Framer with delayed flip) makes no sense at all. Palmar was definitely not a traitor - his role PM was the VT PM (he's a miller). Suspicious detective is the equivalent of a guilty. I don't have a check to use today and I am probably not going to live long enough to give out a check which I would have to make tomorrow. It is not just the role itself- the big thing is the fact that he lied about what his role claim was in the opening post that was dedicated solely to explaining his role....
So wait, Palmar was scum?
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On September 02 2012 08:55 mkfuba07 wrote:For those of you who want to see a current vote count (and correct me if I'm wrong). Votes for SnB (7) - HiroPro, marvellosity, Node, MrZentor, ghost_403, Risen, Hopelessr1der Votes for ghost_403 (3) - Mementoss, strongandbig, Shady Sands Votes for Shady Sands (1) - mkfuba07 @Shady: You mean like this? Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 09:04 ghost_403 wrote:On September 01 2012 01:21 Mementoss wrote:
I'm not too fond of the way ghost has been defending mamba at every chance he gets. It's fine to defend a player if you don't think they're town but leave it at that. Cause when he comes back to the thread he can just mirror the things that ghost said to defend him, or otherwise there is at least a lot less pressure on him to give an adquete response about his case and such. That being said, most of ghosts talk so far has been on this, so I would like to ask him if he had to make a vote now, who would it be and why?
My opinion on this BMB fiasco is that he seems a bit scummy to me. His posts just rub me the wrong way and his case was bad. I'm not going to go much farther into this as it's already been fleshed out by many but I'll be interested in seeing a response from him. The way he talks about his personal scum preferences is odd, and the question to the hosts could just be a scam to make himself look town, when he actually knew the answer because he received this fake role. I think the case was bad and forced from a scum perspective because if you look through his early filter he realized he was talking a lot, but it was purely filler, and was scared of getting called out on it soon, so he decided to make a case up so no one would call him out for "contributing without actually saying much".
I agree that Risen's play is not his normal town play, of guns blazing and doing crazy shit to get reactions out.
If we are going to set the tone here that lurking is unacceptable as town we might as well start day one, and try to set ourselves up for a winning situation later in the game. Also based on his less than stellar game history... So for now..
##Vote: Mr.Zentor
Also I think that people should be giving their gut thoughts and put in a vote at the start of each day, so we can discuss our way through the best person for the lynch throughout the day. People don't seem to realize how short a 24 hour cycle is, so getting a vote in ASAP is important for discussion and consolidation on voting out a scum. Obviously this is impossible to do on day 1, but I think it should be done for further days.
This is the post done by Mementoss that makes me think that he's scum. Take a close look at what he's saying in this post. - Ghost is defending BMB
- BMB is scum
- Risen is a bit off
- Hey, let's lynch a lurker
To the first point, he points out that I've been defending BMB, which is not true. I've been trying to force a discussion about BMB with the people who have been voting BMB. I specifically point that out in this post and this post. Look at what he said real carefully. It's not that he disagrees with what I did. I think he's misrepresenting what I've done in the game up until this point in order to undermine my position in the town. Reading his position on BMB, you realize that he's all over the place in his read. "bit scummy", "make himself look town", "the case was bad and forced from a scum perspective"... All of this would make you think that given a bullet, he'd shoot BMB dead. So why isn't he voting BMB, or at the very least pressuring on him hard? If I was that convinced someone was scum, I'm going to do everything I can to make him sweat bullets and get him lynched. MMToss just kind of admits it, and leaves it hanging. Next, Risen is a bit off. Everyone said that. Next! Finally, he votes Zentor. His vote on Zentor isn't based around the fact that he think's he is scum, he's simply voting for him because he feels compelled to vote. I don't see him putting a lot of thought into his vote, which is exactly what a mediocre scum player does. TL;DR - I think MMToss is scum because of this post. I'm going to be rather upset if the town lets him off the hook. Do you not see this as reasoning behind his vote? Or do you not see it as being "independent" enough? Or did you not read his filter before saying that he didn't support his vote? As for this quote: Show nested quote +He also tells town to pressure Risen over the Palmar lynch, which looks to me like scum trying to set town up for a second mislynch after stumbling on D1. Why not blame yourself, Ghost, for offering no independent analysis on why you voted MMToss? He provided his own reasoning for voting for MMToss, and actually voted for someone other than Palmar. How can you try to place the blame for the mislynch on him in any way? Maybe he should have been here spamming "Vote for my candidate guys! He's scum!" a few hours before the deadline. Maybe that would have stopped that mislynch that he didn't promote. @All: I'm actually not understanding how ghost's post is so scummy. Is that the general feeling when posts like this are seen?
All Ghost did there was repeat what others already said on an 18 hour old post. MMToss had moved far beyond that post already by the time it was posted.
Now the votes are:
Votes for SnB (6) - HiroPro, marvellosity, Node, ghost_403, Risen, Hopelessr1der
Votes for ghost_403 (4) - Mementoss, strongandbig, Shady Sands, MrZentor
Votes for Shady Sands (1) - mkfuba07
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Just two more to switch. Don't let me down.
Also, it's not that 1 individual post that's scummy. Read through Ghost's filter, and tell me ghost is scumhunting with individual and original thinking.
He isn't.
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RISEN! HOPELESS! GET IN HERE!
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Why is it that every time we attack one of HiroPro/Ghost/Mkfuba, they all end up pushing other candidates/defending each other immediately thereafter?
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On September 02 2012 09:52 Risen wrote:
Honestly, I'm looking at the two lists and Shady I already have my doubts about you, MrZ is a lurker, mt seems townie, sab seems like a liar. Why are we saving sab, again?
This isn't about saving SaB, it's about lynching someone for their play as opposed to a claim/fakeclaim. Ghost has been playing like a scum for most of D1/D2. The one time he tried to present independent casework, it was a simple repeat of what Hapa had already written. Other times, he just sheeps people and votes without any justifications at all.
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On September 02 2012 10:17 MrZentor wrote:
If you were a mafia and fake claiming to be a miller, why would you lie and say that sometimes you appear innocent?
Wouldn't it be easier to just say you're a normal miller, because not only does it seem more likely for there to be only normal millers, but also in the unlikely scenario that somebody does check you, you'll appear guilty like you claimed you would.
It doesn't make sense for a mafia to claim to appear guilty to alignment checks part of the time.
Unless there's some weird mechanic that gives the godfather an extra power if chooses to appear guilty for the night.
In which case, SnB is the godfather and he's fooling us.
But that doesn't seem probable..
Zentor, this is why I try not to think about the SaB claim as hard as scumhunting. Dwelling on the claim is like trying to swim through a sea of WIFOM. It doesn't help. Focus on the scumhunt, and tell me Ghost doesn't look scummier than S&B.
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On September 02 2012 10:39 HiroPro wrote:
uh I saw the flip lol
What was the flip?
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On September 02 2012 10:41 MrZentor wrote:Shady, I was merely telling Risen why we were saving SnB. And right now I think Ghost is scum over SnB. I thought that was obvious from the fact that I am voting for Ghost. + Show Spoiler +
Woops thought you were on the SnB wagon.
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On September 02 2012 10:40 Hopeless1der wrote:
Welp okay then.
##Vote: Shady Sands
Why?
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On September 02 2012 10:41 HiroPro wrote:
bio, the best thing to do is just put it back. you can't have the day continue with having some people knowing s&b's alignment and some people not knowing it.
That's not okay. I still have an hour to go trying to get Ghost lynched.
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On September 02 2012 10:46 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 10:45 MrZentor wrote:
Okay, so this lynch didn't really tell us anything, because he was a traitor.
Great.... It told us there was quite the last minute effort to save sab. How is that telling us nothing?
Because how the heck could scum know he was the traitor?
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On September 02 2012 11:05 Node wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 10:54 HiroPro wrote:On September 02 2012 10:53 MrZentor wrote:
Na, I don't think scum knew he was the traitor. No I don't think so either. But they would have thought he was town and that's where it gets interesting. I disagree strongly. I think s&b's claim was made at least partially to alert scum that he was a traitor. Put yourself in Kira's position -- you're probably aware that you have at least one supporter hidden among the detectives. Who looks most likely? I'd have to imagine it's the person who claims they're going to start appearing red at some point to checks.
And keep thinking about it from the scum PoV:
Let's say scum think SaB could be the traitor. What do they do? Try to organize a counter-wagon on a townie that will look extremely obvious and possibly out the entire scumteam, all for a possible additional scum member? Or just push for a bus, since that will boost their towncred without them having to risk a scumteam member?
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On September 02 2012 11:17 Risen wrote:If I can find something that tells me sab is traitor, that means anyone else can as well. I swear I'm the only one who puts effort into these games. From a game I watched called Bureaucracy. The second I saw HiroPro call sab out for lying/inconsistency I reread sab's filter and the green red thing clicked in my mind so I searched for traitor in the TL search bar. Lo and behold. + Show Spoiler +On July 22 2012 14:05 slOosh wrote:Awesome on two counts! I am a Crazed Employee - basically a delayed 1 shot vig, and I targetted Foolishness last night. As you know I've been spending a majority of my time figuring him out and was wavering because he had a good case on BM which I agree with, yet chose to do exactly that a case on BM. I was torn on trying to figure out meta and trusting people's reads, but VE's grilling brought out cold hard, in-thread contradictions that I understand and trust. Probulous I'm assuming is some sort of kingmaker (?) - and he made VE king to lynch BH. Prob has also said that Chezinu is some sort of rolecop: Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 10:47 Probulous wrote:
Time to read that Ole foolish filter. I don't think Chez is scum. He worked out my role but never outed it. I think he can check the names of roles because he correctly emphasised the first three letters of mine to me and only me. Prob is it clear from your role name what your ability is? Because from a minion perspective, the knowledge of someone's role is hard to use - even if you knew someone was blue you can only submit the name to CEO kill list, and outting something like that isn't a town thing to do in the first place. But I also thought he was some sort of messenger role? Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 03:23 VisceraEyes wrote:On July 22 2012 02:20 Palmar wrote:
I haven't caught up since last night. Did Chez ever claim messenger role? The way Chez does, yes. And he sent me a message so... I forgot who said it (was quite recently) that scum and town may have mirror/similar abilities. Sandroba was a clear instance of a town messenger - use ability to find out scum. Chezinu or whoever is sending seems like they are sending messages of confusion (house of Chezinu etc.). In any case I still have to do more rereading & filtering in light of the new information influx. Lastly, I think that the traitorous employee should claim. As I understand it it's like a self-aware miller who wins with town but numbers count with scum. Since mafia have to kill all town they are torn having a "confirmed town" alive and wasting their 1 KP on a useless kill (doesn't count to their wincon), and have lost their means of instantly killing him, plus the possible additional benefits of seeing scum strategies and redacted knowledge through outed PMs can be huge. On August 31 2012 17:27 strongandbig wrote:
Good morning, everyone!
So I've been reading some discussion about this from past games, and I've decided to come forth and claim. I am a self-aware miller.
I'm going to use this post to explain myself and my claim. Hopefully I'll do it well, but I'll also do my best to respond to questions, as well as just to establish my townieness through my play.
So first off, why claim now?
Well, it's clearly now or never. Millers claiming after they're checked are completely useless - in fact, they're worse than useless since they give actual scum cover to hide and potentially waste a lynch.
Second, why claim at all? Well, the main reason is that everyone in this game is a detective.
Usually, the main miller mechanic is that the presence of millers puts some doubt on a DT check and people actually have to discuss it. In a game with 30 people and one or two each of detectives and millers, it's pretty unlikely that the miller actually gets targeted with a DT check. (Unless you have a troll host who makes like the best three townies non-self-aware millers, thank you very much BC.)
But, like I said, in this game everyone is a detective. I know VTs don't get to actually make DT checks - I guess Zeph wasn't lying when he said he would send everyone in the game a copy of the VT role PM. However, in a setup where everyone is a "detective", I expect that there will be a large number of roles which actually do have DT checks. This means that it's much more likely than normal for a miller to get DT checked.
So, it's more important than usual for millers to claim early in this setup. If a non-claimed miller gets DT checked and returns scum, it just fucks with the town and could potentially waste an entire day's lynch. It's much better for the millers to claim on day 1 and then show they're town through their behavior. Like I said before, people claiming miller after day 1 are actively playing anti-town and should be destroyed.
So finally, what should this mean for the town and for me? Well, it obviously puts an onus on me to show I'm town through my play. That's fine, I'm going to do my best to live up to that. It is a very exciting time for my experiment, but I can and will post as much as I can from work, as well as both before and after work. I'm also going to do my best to find scum (although historically I tend to be more successful at judging other peoples' cases and less at making my own, but that's why we have other players to judge my cases as well).
For the rest of the town - it means you have to think critically about what I say. Am I pushing scum objectives? If so, lynch me. Am I promoting useful discussion that gets info out into the thread, or am I promoting trolling, spam, and ragefests? If any of the latter, lynch me. Are my cases good or bad? If they're bad, don't lynch me - bad cases =\= scum. Just tell me why you think they're bad, and see how I respond.
It also means you have to think critically about what other people are saying about me. Putting myself out as a miller should naturally draw attention to me, and that's something scum could try and piggy-back or bandwagon on. If people say I'm scum, think critically about their cases and their motivations.
So let's go town!
PRE-EDIT: I should be a little bit more specific. I don't know whether checks on me will return scum or town - all I'm told is that some checks on me will return scum instead of town. I speculate that there are different types of DT check in this game and I am only a miller to some of them - maybe L has special DT powers, and one of their advantages is that they are immune to some or all millers? I also don't know whether it's likely to have more than one or two millers in such a small setup, but having a lot of DT power roles could mean we have more millers than normal. If there are other self-aware millers, they should claim asap as well, or else never claim at all.
PRE-EDIT TWO: I AM IN EUROPE. This means I will be asleep for deadline; it's at 4:30AM my time. I'll do my best to compensate for this during the days here.See any similarities? I wasn't going to say anything, though, because I wanted to see whether a save attempt would come, and guess what? Come it did. Had it built any real steam I would have pointed this out and we would have gotten the sab lynch. Now we have scum who tripped over themselves to try and save the traitor. I'm not even convinced there wasn't a scum guy on sab waiting for one of us to unvote sab so they could come in and be "convinced" as well. I think the clear lynch is going to be among the list of people who were trying to save sab, though.
What makes you think the scumteam would want to *save* a possible traitor?
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On September 02 2012 11:21 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 11:20 Shady Sands wrote:On September 02 2012 11:17 Risen wrote:If I can find something that tells me sab is traitor, that means anyone else can as well. I swear I'm the only one who puts effort into these games. From a game I watched called Bureaucracy. The second I saw HiroPro call sab out for lying/inconsistency I reread sab's filter and the green red thing clicked in my mind so I searched for traitor in the TL search bar. Lo and behold. + Show Spoiler +On July 22 2012 14:05 slOosh wrote:Awesome on two counts! I am a Crazed Employee - basically a delayed 1 shot vig, and I targetted Foolishness last night. As you know I've been spending a majority of my time figuring him out and was wavering because he had a good case on BM which I agree with, yet chose to do exactly that a case on BM. I was torn on trying to figure out meta and trusting people's reads, but VE's grilling brought out cold hard, in-thread contradictions that I understand and trust. Probulous I'm assuming is some sort of kingmaker (?) - and he made VE king to lynch BH. Prob has also said that Chezinu is some sort of rolecop: Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 10:47 Probulous wrote:
Time to read that Ole foolish filter. I don't think Chez is scum. He worked out my role but never outed it. I think he can check the names of roles because he correctly emphasised the first three letters of mine to me and only me. Prob is it clear from your role name what your ability is? Because from a minion perspective, the knowledge of someone's role is hard to use - even if you knew someone was blue you can only submit the name to CEO kill list, and outting something like that isn't a town thing to do in the first place. But I also thought he was some sort of messenger role? Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 03:23 VisceraEyes wrote:On July 22 2012 02:20 Palmar wrote:
I haven't caught up since last night. Did Chez ever claim messenger role? The way Chez does, yes. And he sent me a message so... I forgot who said it (was quite recently) that scum and town may have mirror/similar abilities. Sandroba was a clear instance of a town messenger - use ability to find out scum. Chezinu or whoever is sending seems like they are sending messages of confusion (house of Chezinu etc.). In any case I still have to do more rereading & filtering in light of the new information influx. Lastly, I think that the traitorous employee should claim. As I understand it it's like a self-aware miller who wins with town but numbers count with scum. Since mafia have to kill all town they are torn having a "confirmed town" alive and wasting their 1 KP on a useless kill (doesn't count to their wincon), and have lost their means of instantly killing him, plus the possible additional benefits of seeing scum strategies and redacted knowledge through outed PMs can be huge. On August 31 2012 17:27 strongandbig wrote:
Good morning, everyone!
So I've been reading some discussion about this from past games, and I've decided to come forth and claim. I am a self-aware miller.
I'm going to use this post to explain myself and my claim. Hopefully I'll do it well, but I'll also do my best to respond to questions, as well as just to establish my townieness through my play.
So first off, why claim now?
Well, it's clearly now or never. Millers claiming after they're checked are completely useless - in fact, they're worse than useless since they give actual scum cover to hide and potentially waste a lynch.
Second, why claim at all? Well, the main reason is that everyone in this game is a detective.
Usually, the main miller mechanic is that the presence of millers puts some doubt on a DT check and people actually have to discuss it. In a game with 30 people and one or two each of detectives and millers, it's pretty unlikely that the miller actually gets targeted with a DT check. (Unless you have a troll host who makes like the best three townies non-self-aware millers, thank you very much BC.)
But, like I said, in this game everyone is a detective. I know VTs don't get to actually make DT checks - I guess Zeph wasn't lying when he said he would send everyone in the game a copy of the VT role PM. However, in a setup where everyone is a "detective", I expect that there will be a large number of roles which actually do have DT checks. This means that it's much more likely than normal for a miller to get DT checked.
So, it's more important than usual for millers to claim early in this setup. If a non-claimed miller gets DT checked and returns scum, it just fucks with the town and could potentially waste an entire day's lynch. It's much better for the millers to claim on day 1 and then show they're town through their behavior. Like I said before, people claiming miller after day 1 are actively playing anti-town and should be destroyed.
So finally, what should this mean for the town and for me? Well, it obviously puts an onus on me to show I'm town through my play. That's fine, I'm going to do my best to live up to that. It is a very exciting time for my experiment, but I can and will post as much as I can from work, as well as both before and after work. I'm also going to do my best to find scum (although historically I tend to be more successful at judging other peoples' cases and less at making my own, but that's why we have other players to judge my cases as well).
For the rest of the town - it means you have to think critically about what I say. Am I pushing scum objectives? If so, lynch me. Am I promoting useful discussion that gets info out into the thread, or am I promoting trolling, spam, and ragefests? If any of the latter, lynch me. Are my cases good or bad? If they're bad, don't lynch me - bad cases =\= scum. Just tell me why you think they're bad, and see how I respond.
It also means you have to think critically about what other people are saying about me. Putting myself out as a miller should naturally draw attention to me, and that's something scum could try and piggy-back or bandwagon on. If people say I'm scum, think critically about their cases and their motivations.
So let's go town!
PRE-EDIT: I should be a little bit more specific. I don't know whether checks on me will return scum or town - all I'm told is that some checks on me will return scum instead of town. I speculate that there are different types of DT check in this game and I am only a miller to some of them - maybe L has special DT powers, and one of their advantages is that they are immune to some or all millers? I also don't know whether it's likely to have more than one or two millers in such a small setup, but having a lot of DT power roles could mean we have more millers than normal. If there are other self-aware millers, they should claim asap as well, or else never claim at all.
PRE-EDIT TWO: I AM IN EUROPE. This means I will be asleep for deadline; it's at 4:30AM my time. I'll do my best to compensate for this during the days here.See any similarities? I wasn't going to say anything, though, because I wanted to see whether a save attempt would come, and guess what? Come it did. Had it built any real steam I would have pointed this out and we would have gotten the sab lynch. Now we have scum who tripped over themselves to try and save the traitor. I'm not even convinced there wasn't a scum guy on sab waiting for one of us to unvote sab so they could come in and be "convinced" as well. I think the clear lynch is going to be among the list of people who were trying to save sab, though. What makes you think the scumteam would want to *save* a possible traitor? I can't even tell if this is a real question or not.
This is a real question.
Let's say scumteam saves a traitor by going all out and all voting for an innocent townie. Townie flips green. Wouldn't the town then proceed to lynch the traitor the next day, and the proceed to lynch the rest of the scumteam for that?
Now think about it this way: scum always needs to build towncred. But building towncred via bussing means sacrificing a contributing scum member. Instead, why not sacrifice a traitor whom the team can't communicate with, and whom the town already suspects?
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On September 02 2012 11:29 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 11:24 Shady Sands wrote:On September 02 2012 11:21 Risen wrote:On September 02 2012 11:20 Shady Sands wrote:On September 02 2012 11:17 Risen wrote:If I can find something that tells me sab is traitor, that means anyone else can as well. I swear I'm the only one who puts effort into these games. From a game I watched called Bureaucracy. The second I saw HiroPro call sab out for lying/inconsistency I reread sab's filter and the green red thing clicked in my mind so I searched for traitor in the TL search bar. Lo and behold. + Show Spoiler +On July 22 2012 14:05 slOosh wrote:Awesome on two counts! I am a Crazed Employee - basically a delayed 1 shot vig, and I targetted Foolishness last night. As you know I've been spending a majority of my time figuring him out and was wavering because he had a good case on BM which I agree with, yet chose to do exactly that a case on BM. I was torn on trying to figure out meta and trusting people's reads, but VE's grilling brought out cold hard, in-thread contradictions that I understand and trust. Probulous I'm assuming is some sort of kingmaker (?) - and he made VE king to lynch BH. Prob has also said that Chezinu is some sort of rolecop: Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 10:47 Probulous wrote:
Time to read that Ole foolish filter. I don't think Chez is scum. He worked out my role but never outed it. I think he can check the names of roles because he correctly emphasised the first three letters of mine to me and only me. Prob is it clear from your role name what your ability is? Because from a minion perspective, the knowledge of someone's role is hard to use - even if you knew someone was blue you can only submit the name to CEO kill list, and outting something like that isn't a town thing to do in the first place. But I also thought he was some sort of messenger role? Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 03:23 VisceraEyes wrote:On July 22 2012 02:20 Palmar wrote:
I haven't caught up since last night. Did Chez ever claim messenger role? The way Chez does, yes. And he sent me a message so... I forgot who said it (was quite recently) that scum and town may have mirror/similar abilities. Sandroba was a clear instance of a town messenger - use ability to find out scum. Chezinu or whoever is sending seems like they are sending messages of confusion (house of Chezinu etc.). In any case I still have to do more rereading & filtering in light of the new information influx. Lastly, I think that the traitorous employee should claim. As I understand it it's like a self-aware miller who wins with town but numbers count with scum. Since mafia have to kill all town they are torn having a "confirmed town" alive and wasting their 1 KP on a useless kill (doesn't count to their wincon), and have lost their means of instantly killing him, plus the possible additional benefits of seeing scum strategies and redacted knowledge through outed PMs can be huge. On August 31 2012 17:27 strongandbig wrote:
Good morning, everyone!
So I've been reading some discussion about this from past games, and I've decided to come forth and claim. I am a self-aware miller.
I'm going to use this post to explain myself and my claim. Hopefully I'll do it well, but I'll also do my best to respond to questions, as well as just to establish my townieness through my play.
So first off, why claim now?
Well, it's clearly now or never. Millers claiming after they're checked are completely useless - in fact, they're worse than useless since they give actual scum cover to hide and potentially waste a lynch.
Second, why claim at all? Well, the main reason is that everyone in this game is a detective.
Usually, the main miller mechanic is that the presence of millers puts some doubt on a DT check and people actually have to discuss it. In a game with 30 people and one or two each of detectives and millers, it's pretty unlikely that the miller actually gets targeted with a DT check. (Unless you have a troll host who makes like the best three townies non-self-aware millers, thank you very much BC.)
But, like I said, in this game everyone is a detective. I know VTs don't get to actually make DT checks - I guess Zeph wasn't lying when he said he would send everyone in the game a copy of the VT role PM. However, in a setup where everyone is a "detective", I expect that there will be a large number of roles which actually do have DT checks. This means that it's much more likely than normal for a miller to get DT checked.
So, it's more important than usual for millers to claim early in this setup. If a non-claimed miller gets DT checked and returns scum, it just fucks with the town and could potentially waste an entire day's lynch. It's much better for the millers to claim on day 1 and then show they're town through their behavior. Like I said before, people claiming miller after day 1 are actively playing anti-town and should be destroyed.
So finally, what should this mean for the town and for me? Well, it obviously puts an onus on me to show I'm town through my play. That's fine, I'm going to do my best to live up to that. It is a very exciting time for my experiment, but I can and will post as much as I can from work, as well as both before and after work. I'm also going to do my best to find scum (although historically I tend to be more successful at judging other peoples' cases and less at making my own, but that's why we have other players to judge my cases as well).
For the rest of the town - it means you have to think critically about what I say. Am I pushing scum objectives? If so, lynch me. Am I promoting useful discussion that gets info out into the thread, or am I promoting trolling, spam, and ragefests? If any of the latter, lynch me. Are my cases good or bad? If they're bad, don't lynch me - bad cases =\= scum. Just tell me why you think they're bad, and see how I respond.
It also means you have to think critically about what other people are saying about me. Putting myself out as a miller should naturally draw attention to me, and that's something scum could try and piggy-back or bandwagon on. If people say I'm scum, think critically about their cases and their motivations.
So let's go town!
PRE-EDIT: I should be a little bit more specific. I don't know whether checks on me will return scum or town - all I'm told is that some checks on me will return scum instead of town. I speculate that there are different types of DT check in this game and I am only a miller to some of them - maybe L has special DT powers, and one of their advantages is that they are immune to some or all millers? I also don't know whether it's likely to have more than one or two millers in such a small setup, but having a lot of DT power roles could mean we have more millers than normal. If there are other self-aware millers, they should claim asap as well, or else never claim at all.
PRE-EDIT TWO: I AM IN EUROPE. This means I will be asleep for deadline; it's at 4:30AM my time. I'll do my best to compensate for this during the days here.See any similarities? I wasn't going to say anything, though, because I wanted to see whether a save attempt would come, and guess what? Come it did. Had it built any real steam I would have pointed this out and we would have gotten the sab lynch. Now we have scum who tripped over themselves to try and save the traitor. I'm not even convinced there wasn't a scum guy on sab waiting for one of us to unvote sab so they could come in and be "convinced" as well. I think the clear lynch is going to be among the list of people who were trying to save sab, though. What makes you think the scumteam would want to *save* a possible traitor? I can't even tell if this is a real question or not. This is a real question. Let's say scumteam saves a traitor by going all out and all voting for an innocent townie. Townie flips green. Wouldn't the town then proceed to lynch the traitor the next day, and the proceed to lynch the rest of the scumteam for that? Now think about it this way: scum always needs to build towncred. But building towncred via bussing means sacrificing a contributing scum member. Instead, why not sacrifice a traitor whom the team can't communicate with, and whom the town already suspects? You're neglecting the fact that at this point in the game there's still a lot more town than scum. In anything like this split vote you're going to have townies on both sides. This gives scum the chance to screw things up, and having sab's extra vote at that point is really good. Also, how does the person they swap to flipping green confirm sab as traitor? I was convinced he was a traitor because of what I found, but how would a town flip that confirm him to YOU?
By the existence of the last minute wagon. I'd find that highly suspicious and vote against it the next day. The fact that people were acting in concert to get a townie lynched would read as a giant scumtell to me.
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On September 02 2012 11:34 Risen wrote:
Wtf? You were ON THAT WAGON. Am I the only one who sees this disconnect?
Is HiroPro confirmed town? IF NOT, THEN HOW WAS I ON A WAGON TO GET A TOWNIE LYNCHED?
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ebwop should read Ghost_403 in the sentence above.
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On September 02 2012 11:42 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 11:35 Shady Sands wrote:On September 02 2012 11:34 Risen wrote:
Wtf? You were ON THAT WAGON. Am I the only one who sees this disconnect? Is HiroPro confirmed town? IF NOT, THEN HOW WAS I ON A WAGON TO GET A TOWNIE LYNCHED? You were on a wagon that would have saved a traitor. D1 Palmar, though trollsy as fuck is still confirmed town, says ghost is his town read. D2 he's one of the top lynch candidates. You think both lynch candidates were scum? (I'm asking if you still think ghost is scum, weird slip with hiropro and ghost, though. Is hiropro a scum partner?) All three of those add to Ghost being a bad lynch candidate, in my mind. Am I using information we've gained POST FLIP to make that judgement? Yes.
Christ, when was I trying to save SaB? I was trying to get my top scumread lynched. This is what I wrote, just fyi:
This isn't about saving SaB, it's about lynching someone for their play as opposed to a claim/fakeclaim. Ghost has been playing like a scum for most of D1/D2. The one time he tried to present independent casework, it was a simple repeat of what Hapa had already written. Other times, he just sheeps people and votes without any justifications at all.
Hint, I wrote this pre-flip.
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On September 02 2012 12:21 Risen wrote:
Going for your top scum read and saving sab line up quite nicely. This conversation is going nowhere.
So basically you're going to assume that any voting for someone other than SaB is a scumtell? Wow.
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GG Town, get Kira fast, you might be next
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EPT
