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Shady Sands, DarthPunk and goodkarma, great seeing you gents around here. Looking forward to this game. XXIV was quite the experience, and hope this one gets as fun. I do hope I can manage this game without screwing up RL as much though =)
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sad man, was looking forward to playing with you :/
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Hello folks ^^ I would appreciate it if someone could clear some things up, since I've never played in this setup yet. Right now I've noticed this new mechanic: visiting someone. A nosy neighbor will randomly visit someone. This will be caught up by the town watcher and/or tracker. Now what I don't understand: if a medic saves someone, or if a roleblocker blocks some, or if a Suicide Bomber plants a bomb somewhere, or if a goon tks someone, will they also "visit" this person?
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On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that?
Um... this: " My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not" You are saying that he tries to discredit you ---> you think he tried to discredit you ---> if he tried to discredit you, you are saying he wanted to do this and is being deliberately disruptive. Why not just straight answer the question without adding another one?
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On September 04 2012 10:01 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:00 Z-BosoN wrote: Hello folks ^^ I would appreciate it if someone could clear some things up, since I've never played in this setup yet. Right now I've noticed this new mechanic: visiting someone. A nosy neighbor will randomly visit someone. This will be caught up by the town watcher and/or tracker. Now what I don't understand: if a medic saves someone, or if a roleblocker blocks some, or if a Suicide Bomber plants a bomb somewhere, or if a goon tks someone, will they also "visit" this person? Yes, all nightactions, including mafia nightkills, can be detected by watchers and trackers. I´ve never seen you before. Have you been on TL-mafia long? What do you think about the game so far? Ah, I see, thanks No, I haven't. So far I have only played in newbie xxiv, as scum. I've skimmed through the posts, and I'm still contemplating the implication of these new roles, and trying to figure out if it makes sense for noisy neighbors to claim.
There are a lot of parallel discussions going on, but right now the filter I dislike the most is Sloosh's. Instead of attempting to make cases, he keeps asking questions and doesn't attempt to read peoples posts. 11/14 of his posts have questions, and I think this adds more confusion than it answers them.
##vote slOosh
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On September 04 2012 10:13 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:12 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 04 2012 10:01 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 10:00 Z-BosoN wrote: Hello folks ^^ I would appreciate it if someone could clear some things up, since I've never played in this setup yet. Right now I've noticed this new mechanic: visiting someone. A nosy neighbor will randomly visit someone. This will be caught up by the town watcher and/or tracker. Now what I don't understand: if a medic saves someone, or if a roleblocker blocks some, or if a Suicide Bomber plants a bomb somewhere, or if a goon tks someone, will they also "visit" this person? Yes, all nightactions, including mafia nightkills, can be detected by watchers and trackers. I´ve never seen you before. Have you been on TL-mafia long? What do you think about the game so far? Ah, I see, thanks No, I haven't. So far I have only played in newbie xxiv, as scum. I've skimmed through the posts, and I'm still contemplating the implication of these new roles, and trying to figure out if it makes sense for noisy neighbors to claim. There are a lot of parallel discussions going on, but right now the filter I dislike the most is Sloosh's. Instead of attempting to make cases, he keeps asking questions and doesn't attempt to read peoples posts. 11/14 of his posts have questions, and I think this adds more confusion than it answers them. --Snip-- This is a scumread... really? Reads the exact opposite to me. I would agree with you if these questions were to provoke discussion. Except that some of his questions:
"Do you think I'm scum by my first post?" "Where did I do that?" "What makes you think I think that?"
Seem like avoidable questions that can be answered just reading. Instead of reading thoroughly, he simply keeps asking questions and doesn't move the discussion forward. Seems like an easy way to look town to me.
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There is a lot of people who have not yet posted. The views on policy lynch, from what I've gathered, are varied. Absolute lurkers will get modkilled, so should we discuss what to do with people who have posted one or two crap posts and disappeared?
@Darthpunk Unjustified accusations won't get us anywhere. If you are going to say it was retarded, say why.
@Hapa You described a fine line between: -> Picking fights for the sake of picking fights -> Picking fights for the sake of trying to start conversations
You defended sloosh based on him trying to start conversations. Can you be more specific on what is the difference between these two, for clarity??
@slOosh Very well, seems reasonable. Thanks for clearing that up. What is your take on Darthpunk?
##Unvote
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On September 04 2012 11:03 goodkarma wrote:Hey all A couple general observations for what I've just read: -I don't follow some of the voting that's already taken place in this thread. I don't get why some of us feel the need to vote for each other this early with little to no information to back a vote up. Imho, we should be working to establish a strong, pro-town atmosphere just as much as we are to find a lynch candidate for today. -I remember Hapa saying this once before: lynching one of the most vocal members day one is typically not the best idea. Looking back at how NMM XXIV turned out (Shady's lynch), others here should agree with me that there's at least some evidence to support this. Town loses so much more from a mislynch of a vocal town than of a semi-lurker, and, at least in my experience, you're much more likely to lynch a town than a scum when you target the most vocal day one player. I'm not going to assume that sloosh is town at this point, but the effort he's taken to pressure others with his posts is definitely conducive towards a pro-town atmosphere. Along those lines, I feel that Z-Boson's early vote on sloosh could very well be scum motivated. I disagree that sloosh's discussion is unhelpful. Maybe scum or town could pressure people like sloosh has, but he's pushing for more information so he's not stuck making a weak case against others, as Z-Boson has with sloosh: ##FoS: Z-Boson Howdy gk
There are good ways to push information, and bad ways. By the way that almost ALL his posts were questions and the fact that some of them could easily have been avoided, I interpreted them as adding confusion rather than removing it. Thus, I pressured him to respond to this and was satisfied with his reply. The reason for the vote this early is evidently to force answers, just as your FOS did with me
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lol, guess I should read the OP more carefully.
@Hapa The purpose is just because I don't see the difference between the two. Me picking fights with someone implies that I don't agree with them or that I find something suspicious and am attacking them for it. I can only presume you mean the line between "picking fights with no good reason" and "picking fights with good reason", in which case I don't think it is a strong scum tell, granted that a bad player will also apparently pick fights without good reason.
Meanwhile We have a player with one bad post and nothing more to add:
On September 04 2012 07:54 Ottoxlol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:51 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 07:47 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 04 2012 07:43 Hapahauli wrote:I propose a town circle: Discuss. I think you should start scumhunting or we will lynch you Rewok and austinmcc are my top scumreads - what are yours? BM is my top scumread, he said just before day post and we havent heard from him since.
Are you going to bother answering any of BWexe's questions against you or was this just your anti-modkill ticket?
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On September 04 2012 11:31 BlackMamba24 wrote: Let me tell you guys what's happening - townies are having really dumb arguments and scum are lurking
Oh - odds are scum are definitely lurking. As I proposed, I think we should discuss a policy lynch specifically on people with crap posts who disappear, such as Oxliolwhatshisname, for example.
If you are saying that we are making really dumb arguments, would you mind making better ones?
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(...) What's with the vote for BloodyCobbler? He's pretty much a lurker at this point, but you're voting him for non-policy reasons... This feels like a scum getting behind a safe lurker lynch vote, at least at the time you wrote it (it just came to my attention as I'm about to post this that another page of postings have taken place, and cobbler has just made another post...)... My guess is this is a pressure vote, but I would appreciate a bit more of an explanation if you could provide it.
Wait what? He's a one-liner semi-lurker who answers in riddles and you are ok with that and is defensive on him? Tell us why you think that not answering the godamn question straight-up of why he is so sure of the whole miller deal is pro-town?
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It's not like it's the end of the deadline, we are still a long ways to go... plus, votes don't count in this thread.
Also, the discussion up to now is going nowhere. BC has made it a point to say that he knows something we don't, but won't clarify. If he did indeed learn something game changing as that, I presume Palmar would have announced it in this thread.
So, he's directed the whole discussion at him, and has disappeared. This is all but productive..
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All right, regarding the BC/Mattchew situation:
First of all, this post is wrong:
You are right, his fakeclaim doesn't prove he is mafia on its own. However, HIM ASKING FOR CLAIMS DOES. Why would a townie fakeclaim and attempt to get all blues to claim ? No townie day 1 should ever be this fuckign stupid. Even if he gets caught as mafia (as I have caught him) had anyone or if anyone proceeds to claim and a bunch of retard blues out themselves mafia is instantly ahead.
IIRC, he asked for people with the same role - noisy neighbor - to claim, not blues.
BC is making this main assumption:
No miller/neighbor is self aware in any game ever except odd pyp/ptp like setups as it defeats the purpose of the role. This game holds true to the same rule as normal games for the mechanic.
To put it simply, this is the main argument going on: how can he know he is a noisy neighbor if they are unaware?. Am I correct?
You have made it clear that you are 100% sure that this game does not include self-aware millers. As a normal person, one could not make this assumption, as it would be statistical. Say 90% of games don't include self-aware millers. I have read the OP, and nowhere does it say that millers aren't self-aware, so you must have other reasons to know this, because no matter what, you say it is not an assumption.
The fact that you keep insisting would be ridiculous if you weren't indeed 100% certain, because, like sloosh said, you would most likely be lynched if he showed up town, making it a double town loss.
Did I get anything wrong here?
If not, ##Vote Mattchew
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On September 05 2012 10:18 BlackMamba24 wrote: Z-BoSoN hasn't posted since heaping suspicion on BC and from what I recall of at least the Death Note Obs QT he is quite attentive and active on TL, reading and updating himself a lot.
I'm here. Still catching up, lots of posts to go over. Will exercise and post soon.
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Allright, I finished going over the thread. I posted responses as I saw them, without reading further. As I kept reading I saw that a lot of people already adressed some of my points, but I've decided I'll keep them here anyways, because it strengthens the read, should you take my word that I wrote them right after reading each post.
Oxttoliol First of all, Ox is still reluctant to conclude that Mattchew is most likely scum. He reads poorly, and spent the last 8 pages annoying us with this and trading slaps with Toad, and in my point of view, this is completely counter-productive. He has not made any other points or comments regarding anything else, at all. I don't know why he is so insistent on this, but I am not willing to dismiss him as a concerned townie rather than scum just because he is defending a probable scum. He reminds me a lot of SolarSail in his two previous games.
Milton
On September 05 2012 04:20 Miltonkram wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 20:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 19:29 Miltonkram wrote:Now that we're 99% sure Mattchew is scum I'd like everyone to turn their attention to Hapahauli. On September 04 2012 10:26 Hapahauli wrote:As for an early-game scumread, I'm suspicious of DarthPunk. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=15#285In his only substantial post, he's very critical of the early-game play of two players. He calls mattchew's vote "retarded" but doesn't attempt to say if it's scummy or not. He doesn't ask questions about their motives - he's just critical, and that seems scummy to me. ##Vote DarthPunk He chainsaw defends Mattchew after Mattchew recieves pressure from DarthPunk. All the while he avoids actually commenting whether he thinks Mattchew seems guilty or not. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. I'd like everyone to turn to Miltonkram for straight up lying about post history. This would be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in the thread if it wasn't for the Mattchew fake-claim. Scum coming in late and trying to make the best of a bad situation IMO. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). At that point in the game, DarthPunk hadn't voted for mattchew yet. DarthPunk never votes until Palmar confirms the lie. Looks like we have scum #2 - using misinformation to make a key component of his "case" stronger. Or I just thought DarthPunk had voted for Mattchew already. My mistake. He had put pressure on Mattchew though and thus I would call Hapahauli's attack on DarthPunk a chainsaw defense. If you look at the back and forth between Hapa and Darth you see that Hapa backs off only when Darth starts backing off from Mattchew. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 11:12 DarthPunk wrote:On September 04 2012 10:51 Hapahauli wrote: Okay this is getting nowhere fast. Howbout this - other than being "retarded", does it make you lean one way or another toward Mattchew's alignment? As to Mattchews alignment. He claimed Nosy neighbour. As far as I am concerned if he is not a nosy neighbour it will become apparent over time if he was lying. So I would like to take a wait and see approach. I don't feel like his posts are pro town. Perhaps I am missing things and it is going over my head. But clarity and Transparency are preferable to what has been going on during the last few pages. That's fair. Your responses seem townie enough - I'd ##unvote if votes in this thread actually counted =P This sticks out to me because it tells me that Hapa's goal was not to pressure Darth, but to take pressure off of Mattchew. What had Darth done to deserve the BOTD from Hapa?
Like Ox, his focus has just been nagging at hapa all game, based on a soft-defending argument that's hardly conclusive. However, I don't agree with hapa that that's a strong indicative of scum, it looks more to me like an attempt to make a case. Now that he has finally backed off, he can surely show us that he's worried about scumhunting and will present us with other concerns.
goodkarma Holy godamn inconsistency. Lord, I just have to extract simple quotes to show just how contradictory you are:
I remember Hapa saying this once before: lynching one of the most vocal members day one is typically not the best idea.
##FoS: BlackMamba
And your latest post is so full of crap....
On September 05 2012 09:27 goodkarma wrote: I would agree with Hapa that Mattchew is almost a 100% scum read. He's done a good job of highlighting why.
But there is more than one scum. We need to move past Mattchew onto pressuring other people. A scum lynch day one puts us in an excellent position going forward. Looking at others' filters I couldn't help but notice that there still are a considerable number of people that need to participate more to help ensure a strong pro-town environment going into day 2.
Grush is at modkill-threshold. I don't expect he's going to be around all that much longer. Until he makes his first post, I consider any time spent pressuring him as a waste.
On the other hand, Gravan, Lvdr, austinmc, maverick, ShadySands, and ShioPi all stand out to me as semi-lurkers. Some of them seem to have legitimate reasons (such as ShadySands), but that doesn't mean they aren't scum with legitimate reasons.
As for things that have stood out to me:
-Obviously, Ottoxlol made a rather out of place vote after it was apparent Mattchew was lying. I don't feel this is a scum tell, as from a scum perspective Mattchew is pretty much "confirmed scum" at this point. Scum would be dumb to not bus him. It doesn't guarantee he's innocent, but it feels like his vote is too out of place to have been made by scum.
-BlackMamba's early vote against Cobbler still stands out to me. Cobbler started the initiative to get Mattchew lynched, convincing me that he's "confirmed town." I just don't see any scenario where Cobbler as scum aggressively buses his partner day one.
Yet BlackMamba voted him with little reason, then turned around and tacked on more of an explanation a little later. BlackMamba's play here makes sense from a scum perspective, as he could have been trying to avert attention away from Mattchew. Also, he isn't transparent with his reads. As town, I see no reason why he'd withhold them, as he does here:
I don't understand why it is that he can't share reads on sloosh and toadstern if he has them. Refusing to be transparent does not help town.
##FoS: BlackMamba I look forward to hearing BlackMamba's reply, especially regarding his reads on sloosh and toadstern that he refused to share.
Grush has made a few posts. Lvdr, on the other hand, hasn't posted at all! Also, Hapa didn't make the case - Sloosh did. You are also basically attacking BM because he attacks cobbler and that he's not giving us his sloosh/toad reads. Had you actually been reading, this is because there was a confusion regarding noisy neighbors' self-awareness, and it wasn't with "little reason", as far as I remember, he explained why he attacked BC. Also, if someone doesn't give a read you ask, then he is scum? There are many better ways to find scum than this.
Granted he's actually posting three times as much as you AND the fact that you said you disagree on going after active townies, your post has been quite suspicious. You demonstrate a lack of reading and a lack of consistency.
Rewin + Gravan ENOUGH about mattchew. We don't need anymore people saying why they think it's ok to lynch him. Can you not find a better way to participate?
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He has made what I perceive as a few "scumslips," but I try to focus on scum motivation rather than on slips as "scumslips" are a good way to get town mislynched (as both scum and town make them) whereas if you can pin scum motivation on someone you're much more likely to lynch the right guy. I don't see scum motivation behind his play right now.
Care to elaborate?
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@BM Why do you still think he might be scum? Don't you think this will depend on the Mattchew lynch?
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Allright, Mattchew is set to be lynched. What can we conclude if he flips scum or town? In the unlikely event that he will flip town, will we have enough evidence to go for a BC lynch?
My take is, if he flips town, BC's suspicions will go way up, but I don't agree with insta-lynch. We all agreed that fakeclaiming is not something a blue role would do, and is most likely coming from scum.
If he flips scum, then we will take a long hard look at the people who insist that he shouldn't be lynched.
Ox, as of now, is my top candidate for a lynch. He's been so obnoxious and so annoying regarding the whole Mattchew business that he looks the most suspicious up to now. He also has been of zero usefulness this entire game.
@Shiaopi Your meta is a little off from Dwarf Mafia, where you were town and had much more contribuitive posts in day 1. When will your internet be fixed?
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He has a theory that matt is an assassin and is basically making an useless confirmation of his vote. Why is there doubt?
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He said he was gonna vote for him....
Since it is day 1 and we only have so much information, we essentially have to lynch him anyway (even if we were nearly certain he is an assassin. At this time, I'll be throwing my vote his way.
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On September 05 2012 12:59 BroodKingEXE wrote:That was guy number 2 I missed him on my reread of the filters. The end of his post is scummy imo sounds like he is trying to avoid modkill as opposed to helping the town. Interested in why he thinks Matt is assasin and still votes for him.
Yep, that's the main problem I would have with him. Also, from your filter, you were pretty focused on Toad. Do you still find him suspicious??
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Allison, what kind of info do you think it gives?
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On September 06 2012 01:18 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 01:01 imallinson wrote:On September 06 2012 00:47 Toadesstern wrote:On September 06 2012 00:36 imallinson wrote:On September 05 2012 21:40 Z-BosoN wrote: Allison, what kind of info do you think it gives? If he is scum it puts a lot of suspicion on the people who are still defending him, Ottox and Gravan are the ones I would be most suspicious of. If he isn't scum then it puts the people who were really pushing for his lynch under some suspicion Toad, BC possibly me and a couple others. Of course if he is scum BC is almost definitely town because there would be no reason to sell out your team mate so early on. I'd say it's the other way around lol. If Matt somehow manages to flip green or blue Ottox looks really bad. If Matt flips red, whatever, it's a null imo. I can see why you could think Matt flipping red wouldn't give info by assuming scum insta bussed Matt after Palmar's post. But how does him flipping town look bad for Ottox? well 24 out of 25 people agree that Matt needs to die. If that 1 guy telling us Matt is not mafia is right that looks awfully like someone having information he shouldn't have or how in the world is the guy supposed to come to the conclusion that Matt's got to be "not mafia" if everyone else agrees he is. - If Matt flips 3rd party Ottox needs to die 100% because he's a mafia who knew that Matt is "not Mafia" and tried to go for towncred.
- If Matt flips town Ottox probably needs to die because he's still most likely a mafia who thought he's getting towncred that way. I'm saying "probably" because it's possible that he really is the 1 out of 25 chance to be town but that's unlikely.
- If Matt flips mafia Ottox is either an incredible paranoid townie or an incredible ballsy mafia player. Both equally likely/unlikely (imo) and therefore the flip itself tells nothing so we have to resort to normal analysis.
I disagree, this is mostly WIFOM. If matt flips mafia, he will look suspicious because of scum motivation. If he flips townie, then he can equally be a townie who actually thought that matt's claim made sense, a townie who thought that matt was trolling and thought you were a better target, a townie who just wants to feel special by disagreeing with everybody else, a scum trying to gain town cred, and whatever else I can't come up with. I don't agree with your "he needs to die 100%". On my point of view, if matt flips scum, he becomes more suspicious, because there is scum motivation in trying to defend a buddy. If matt flips town, Ox will still be as suspicious as he is right now.
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@goodkarma Just because he is up on my suspicion bar does not mean that he is scum. He could very well be a bad townie. If he is, the only motivation he has for defending matt and attacking toad is that he actually thinks that toad is more suspicious than matt, and if so, he's doing a shitty job at explaining himself. Also, him being obnoxious doesn't contribute to his defense.
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Oh god, not this again. Can we just ignore ox?? It's pointless arguing with him.
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Uh, bill, aren't you forgetting someone? For someone who said:
I disagree with your disagreeing. HE NEEDS TO DIE 100%.
You sure quickly forgot him when you were making your little list...
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@austin
Ottoxlol shortly realized how bad an idea it was No he didn't... he still thinks Toad is scum and still insists that matt is not.
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On September 06 2012 07:20 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 07:19 Z-BosoN wrote:Uh, bill, aren't you forgetting someone? For someone who said: I disagree with your disagreeing. HE NEEDS TO DIE 100%. You sure quickly forgot him when you were making your little list... mattchew is on the top of my list to die. you're confused. No you That quote was about oxtrot. If you don't remember, or if you misinterpreted it, please read again.
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On September 06 2012 07:29 BlackMamba24 wrote: ooh and if BC is scum so is Z-BoSoN imo
Wasn't gonna bother, but please, enlighten me. Is this just gut feeling or do you have any specific reasons?
Anyways, regarding him, why exactly did he absolutely know that NN's aren't self-aware? This might have been answered or is obvious but I can't find anything.
For now, my vote goes to Oxtrott.
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On September 06 2012 07:40 Toadesstern wrote: Bam. Watcher on people like BC and me please.
Mafia will want to hit that. Why on earth do you think mafia would want to hit you?
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Let me! let me! First of all, you post this:
On September 04 2012 23:52 Maverick32x wrote: I voted for Matt due to the lying- but I would be curious to hear if he has a defense of some kind??
On September 05 2012 00:41 Maverick32x wrote: Well, I must of skimmed past the FoS on me from Bill Murray, so I'll weigh in a bit.
The reason I was hesitant to jump on Matt was because 'bad play' doesn't equal Scum play. And our goal is to hunt Scum, not hunt bad players. That being said, lying goes a bit beyond 'bad' and starts to seem more scummy.
@Broodking- I re-read your post like 10 times and I have no idea what point you're trying to make...
These seem like soft-defending attempts on your scum buddy. You are on the same train as Graven, you figured out it wasn't a good idea to defend him and backed off. But these arguments are weak, if I want to judge someone strictly on defending a now-confirmed scum, then I wouldn't bother with anyone else other than Ox. However:
You DON'T SCUMHUNT!
This is a huge red flag to me.... how is that ONLY something that scum does? I agree with everything else you've written.. but using those sort of generalizations really makes me suspicious.
So now you say that you have a huge red flag and it really makes you suspicious. Yet, you don't make a single post later on, to anyone else. You just seemingly forget all about s&b and the huge red flag you have on him. If you were townie I'm sure you would be more focused into attacking someone you have a huge red flag on than on defending yourself.
You show more interest in defending yourself than in making cases and scumhunting.
And thus, your first non-casual FOS:
##FOS Maverick
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On September 06 2012 08:21 BlackMamba24 wrote: why does everyone suddenly think ottoxlol is town
Discussion regarding him is pointless by now. Does not mean we think he's town.
Right now I think the town focus should be to seek a stronger lynch candidate and not let discussion die.
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On September 06 2012 08:26 BlackMamba24 wrote: ottoxlol is the strongest lynch candidate
Yup. And thus we shouldn't try to find a stronger one?
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On September 06 2012 08:45 BlackMamba24 wrote: Vig ottoxlol
I provided more reasoning than anybody regarding Mattchew and even reposted once or twice so he could see it but he continues to ignore all argument/reasoning and repeat the same lie that nobody ever explained why they voted for Mattchew, no one ever explained why he is scummy besides that he lied, etc. all untrue false bullshit that can be easily demonstrated
Let's say you are town adn you think town is about to mislynch. What do you do?
A) Repeat the same arguments, when you get answers for your questions, ignore them and attack/insult people responding to you. Vote for someone else but never really push the case. When the person flips scum continue to act as though your arguments were brilliant somehow even though you are now objectively wrong about everything. Attack everyone voting for this player.
B) Explain why you think they are innocent. Find someone you think is scum and push them as much as you can. Listen to and consider the responses to your questions about the Mattchew lynch. After the lynch, try to see where your argument went wrong and reconsider your point of view.
Yeah town players can be bad. They can be assholes. But there are clear scum motivations and tells in ottox's behavior.
1) Defends only by assaulting and attacking other players
2) Avoids real argument/discussion by ignoring other peoples posts, misrepresenting them (for instance, saying I never provided reasons for my vote when I was the first to do that) and insulting others.
3) Doesn't push an alternate case with any commitment.
4) Behavior/arguments have a clear conclusion that was determined beforehand and will never change. Suggests that he has objective knowledge of something or a clear agenda.
There you go. That's enough. If Ottoxlol is not hit by a vigilante tonight which he should be, he is the absolute best lynch target for tomorrow. Period.
Dude, what you are describing is just how a defensive crybaby player (aka SolarSail in XXIV and in DeathNote, who even managed to get modkilled) would play. Also, the bolded part just goes way too far. I don't see where how his behavior is suggestive of that at all. I've only played one game, and read a few. Defensive crybaby disruptive play does not serve as a main argument, it is mostly a side dish to go along with the main one.
My stance on him is that he just says things without thinking. His defense on Matt could very well be this, and his pride won't let him back down, just as he doesn't back down from clearly flawed claims. This, along with his disruptive anti-town play is what gives me the reason for him to be the top lynch. Unlike you, however, I am not that comfortable on my vote on him. Please just go ahead and read SolarSail on XXIV and DeathNote and see why I'm hesitant to just bluntly say that OMG HE MUST DIE like you and some of you are saying.
Also, this post from you is ridiculous:
we should lynch doyouhas too, this is a post that was definitely posted in the scum qt a few times my intuition is flaring up like crazy over this
You want to win this with intuition? How about logic. How about you tell me exactly what is scummy about this post. From my perspective, I think his points are lacking compared to some already made on other people, but he does bring something that is valid as an argument. Hopeless wasn't included in the list of "reluctant voters", and now, he might very well be. I don't think it is enough to convict someone as scum, but it is NOT more food for your suspicions on him, unless, of course, you grace us with an explanation. You want people to trust your "intuition"?
And please stop begging vigi to kill someone. If you are mafia, you could be just as easily using the easiness of which it is to target Ox to make a vigi waste a shot on a townie.
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On September 06 2012 08:42 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:41 Bill Murray wrote: Regardless, Toad just majorly backtracked and EBWOPed because he called ottoxlol town and encouraged a vig... he's lying, and nervous about it, imo. I feel like he knows that ottoxlol would need a vig... toad has slipped up quite a bit, but i'm not 100% on him. no I did not backtrack. I said he's either mafia or he's town and in both cases he needs to die given the situation.
So you are saying that even if he is somehow confirmed town, he still needs to die?
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Can anyone please comment on my case on Maverick? Not scumhunting and inconsistencies are the biggest scum tells from what I have gathered, and I think I've identified the first one quite strongly. Does anyone think that a townie Mav would post as he is???
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On September 06 2012 09:46 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Boson, Ottoxlol still has to respond to me how he came up with 5 red as the team size. Its not in the OP and no mod has come into thread clarifying thus it is unlikely they have decided how to respond to it yet.
Basically, as you guys all know how I caught mattchew day 1? Well until a mod comes in and clears him by saying the mafia # is something not 5 hes mafia. As of right now, the only people who have the actual mafia size # are mafia thus I believe it was an unintentional slip by him, but one that is unsurprising giving the heat he was taking.
Holy shit, I hadn't seen this. Ok, I'm absolutely set on voting against him, should he not die. Nice catch.
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On September 06 2012 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote: BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
Wtf?? He introduced a totally different argument!! Are you even reading right now?
I got that from your post and I said those were supporting arguments but not enough to say omfg let's lynch him, due to my experience with SolarSail.
However, the scumslip pointed out by BC is subtle and very VERY likely for a scum under pressure to make.
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On September 06 2012 10:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:03 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote: BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
Wtf?? He introduced a totally different argument!! Are you even reading right now? I got that from your post and I said those were supporting arguments but not enough to say omfg let's lynch him, due to my experience with SolarSail. However, the scumslip pointed out by BC is subtle and very VERY likely for a scum under pressure to make. the 5 mafia slip is the least important part of the whole thing because even I just assumed there were 5 scum, in fact idr if i posted it but i might have posted a scumteam guess that was exactly 5
Then why did you say that BC repeated your arguments and said the same thing you did? I clearly gave emphasis to the one he had just added. Well, we are just at a difference of opinion then, you think that his attitude and behavior is more lynch-worthy than him defending matt and this "scumslip". I insist yet again you read SolarSail on XXIV, here, it's pretty fast: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359489&user=273717 It sums up why I think his behavior could be more bad play than scum play.
At least now we both agree that without a doubt loloxtott must die.
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On September 06 2012 10:16 Gravan wrote:I think Bill Murray is scum. Show nested quote +Also, Hapahauli, what is your read on Gravan? Scum or town? I don't want you using the word Null. Pick one. Scum or town? Consider yourself having a Gun to your head. This is the first time he mentions me. At this point, he hasn't put forward any kind of read on me at all. In addition, many of his posts up until this point (not to mention quite a few afterward) are pointless one-liners, or just generally non-contributing. The next thing he does is tell austin to read my filter as if I was scum (again, not argument put forward on his part - he is talking as if me being scum is a forgone conclusion). + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:18 austinmcc wrote: Show nested quote + Looking through his profile, I see his only other game was LIII. So he's at least played, although not with me. But he knows that some of the people in this game played that game, he played with them, he knows they are competent individuals with functioning brains.
It's the first time I've ever seen someone cling to something absolutely wrong in this manner. I have posted paranoid rants in two games, stuck by them for a while as possibilities, gotten upset if people wouldn't consider them as possibilities, but I didn't get like this.
Right now (and if Matt flips scum I will be more certain of the read) I can't help but read the whole thing like this: Matt got caught Ottoxlol tried to save him, without realizing how bad an idea it was Ottoxlol shortly realized how bad an idea it was A decent scum player told him right after he got caught looking very odd that he couldn't back off his defense, because then he'd look even scummier So he went full bore nuts, and that's why he won't listen to anyone or anything
It doesn't feel like he's just obtuse. At some point he'd get the message. It feels like he's clinging to this.
Do me a favor, and go read Gravan's filter as if he were a scum idiot Then he goes on to say that hap is on his scumlist for "coaching" me. + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:23 Hapahauli wrote: Show nested quote +
Null. Deal with it.
His posts/logic right now could come from either mafia or bad-townie. I don't have enough information to make a decision since hasn't posted much. Fortunately we have 48 hours to make a read on him.
yeah youre on my scum list so is gravan you openly coached him Afterwards, he includes doyouhas in this list. + Show Spoiler +filter On September 06 2012 07:27 imallinson wrote: Show nested quote +
I'd say Gravan looks real scummy right now. He attempted the same thing as Ottox, defending Matt by saying he was probably an assassin, but much more quietly and backed away as soon as he realised it was a bad idea. If anything that looks more scummy than Ottox at the moment.
THANK YOU. Go read Gravan's filter, and tell me if you don't find hapa coaching him? 2nd person I've caught him coaching that looks like scum with him (Doyouhas is the other) His next two posts that mention me go on to mention (offhandedly) the apparently obvious need to have me shot by a vig. Further, if you read his filter he is very non-comittal on the otto-defending-matt-and-generally-acting-scummy issue. His posts are passively worded and just softly agree with the flow of the thread at the time.
This is the worst case I've ever seen.
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On September 06 2012 10:18 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:15 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 10:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On September 06 2012 10:03 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote: BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
Wtf?? He introduced a totally different argument!! Are you even reading right now? I got that from your post and I said those were supporting arguments but not enough to say omfg let's lynch him, due to my experience with SolarSail. However, the scumslip pointed out by BC is subtle and very VERY likely for a scum under pressure to make. the 5 mafia slip is the least important part of the whole thing because even I just assumed there were 5 scum, in fact idr if i posted it but i might have posted a scumteam guess that was exactly 5 Then why did you say that BC repeated your arguments and said the same thing you did? I clearly gave emphasis to the one he had just added. Well, we are just at a difference of opinion then, you think that his attitude and behavior is more lynch-worthy than him defending matt and this "scumslip". I insist yet again you read SolarSail on XXIV, here, it's pretty fast: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359489&user=273717 It sums up why I think his behavior could be more bad play than scum play. At least now we both agree that without a doubt loloxtott must die. Also I did endorse all of what he said so drH saying I repeated it isn't a lie. I also added the bit that I see as a scumslip.
It isn't a lie, but I felt he directed it at me, and I made reference specifically to the "scumslip" you pointed out, while ALSO having responded to his claims, not yours.
I can see a townie being a belligerent asshole. It becomes harder for me to see a townie being a belligerent asshole who spent much time hard defending a scum and gave a possible scumslip.
Also, Hapa does have a point regarding the count. I didn't realize it was before the matt lynch. If he was claiming that matt is town, then by his count, the mafia number is 4. Has there ever been a normal game with only four mafia?
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DrH posts a lot, and does so without necessarily putting in much thought. Since he's been all over the place, it's very possible that this could be a simple mistake. Let us hear what he has to say.
goodkarma's posting has been very lacking compared to when he was townie. Grush hasn't posted in forever, and Rewok's
On September 06 2012 12:47 Rewok wrote: Just so I can add something to the thread: If Otto gets vigi'd tonight and turns up red, Hap's next on my list. If Otto turns up green, Hap's in the clear. He seems like the next most logical focus after Otto.
Is blunt and meaningless. Why not shed some light on the most recent cases? Both you and Gravan have had enough of "yay look me at, I'm contributing! "
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EBWOP: sniped. I started post and went to do some shit and finished it without refreshing.
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@Bill Murray I fail to see anything special on that interaction. Could you be more specific?
Also, I think I have a decent case on Maverick. He clearly showed that he isn't worried about scumhunting. For the third time, can any clear-thinking soul respond? ffs
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Thank you!
Being defensive is a general trait everybody has. But my main problem is that he said S&B had a red flag and was suspicious. Wouldn't a townie, even a newer one, be more insistent on this? I can't think of myself saying someone is really suspicious only to not bother attacking him at all..
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On September 06 2012 14:38 Hapahauli wrote:Well looking at Mav's filter in Aperture Mafia (Townie)... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319120&user=174863Maverick is also pretty lurky in the early game, so I don't think his activity is indicative of his alignment. He really doesn't make too many significant contributions until mid-game, and he shows somewhat of a similar mentality to this game - slight pokes and prods, and an objection to an early vote. I'm not sure completely what to make of his "OMGUS" stuff against people who FOS'd him. It still reads as slightly townie to me (calling attention to himself), but he has yet to respond to any significant case against him. I really haven't seen anything in his filters that blatantly goes against his gameplay this game. Leaning town on him, but I hope to get more outta him in the next few days.
Like I said, my mention issue with him is not lurkiness and being defensive, those are just toppings. It's the fact that he mentioned he has a red flag on someone, and did not pursue. His last game, regarding this, doesn't say much, but it does say that he is capable of making cases and establishing arguments, something in which he has not done this game yet, despite accusing someone of being highly suspicious.
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On September 06 2012 23:53 imallinson wrote:I think the general consensus is that Ottox is scum and needs to get vig shot and I've said enough about him already so I'll leave that as is. On to who needs lynching tomorrow. I'm convinced at this point that Gravan needs lynching. His filter reads like textbook scum tactics. Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 09:38 Gravan wrote:First, the straightforward part. It seems to me that Matt is most likely an assassin, or a very careless player. As many have said before me, there is no case for him to do what he did from a town perspective. To me, it seems that if he were mafia or town, we would likely have seen at least some kind of attempt at an explanation - either to strengthen his fellow mafia by giving them 'towncred' as they jump on his bandwagon or to try to convince us we are making a mistake as a town blue. As an assassin, he could just be seeing his end and giving up - this is of course moot if he decides to put in his piece later. Since he is apparently not a random newbie (who is a random newb, anyway ?), and clearly likes to be an active player, it shouts assasinto me. Since it is day 1 and we only have so much information, we essentially have to lynch him anyway (even if we were nearly certain he is an assassin. At this time, I'll be throwing my vote his way. Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 13:30 Gravan wrote:On September 05 2012 13:00 Hapahauli wrote: Why is he voting Mattchew if he's convinced he's an assassin? Hell that post doesn't really explain why he's even voting - "we essentially have to lynch him anyway" - wut? This is my fault for wording this sentence poorly. Although I am still leaning towards Matt being an assassin, he certainly looks all kinds of scummy as well. There isn't enough information at this point to lynch someone else - this lynch will, at worst, be neutral. I feel that, unless someone who has better evidence against them comes up (unlikely) we are better off to make this lynch and gain the information (Matt's flip) than sit idle. I am just asserting that I personally think he is an assassin. I'm done on the whole Matt issue now; still working on making my posts more constructive and less parrot-y. If Matt flips scum, Ottox and Toad really need to be looked at. Ottox has been making his bizarre crusade about the potential innocence of Matt, as everyone knows. To me, Toad's last few posts have seemed a little aimless and very personally aggressive with little content. He spends a considerable amount of time shutting down and pointing at Ottox (who is looking obviously scummy or very misguided) in a well written post, then shifts to personal attacks and negligent remarks. His first post with any content is a soft defence of Matt. Along with Ottox this is meant to take town discussion away from anything useful and focussing it on whether Matt is assassin or scum. The second post is the same soft defence as the first but also starts trying to put Toad under the spotlight. The last part makes no sense because he thinks Toad is scummy for attacking Ottox who he also thinks is scum. The shift from well written to angry attacks isn't due to toad being scummy it's due to Ottox not listening to anybody. Once everyone piles on Ottox he backs away from this position while Ottox is taking the spotlight. When Matt is lynched and flips red there is no follow up to the previous posts. He avoids the subject entirely hoping it will slip under everyone's radar. Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:16 Gravan wrote:I think Bill Murray is scum. Also, Hapahauli, what is your read on Gravan? Scum or town? I don't want you using the word Null. Pick one. Scum or town? Consider yourself having a Gun to your head. This is the first time he mentions me. At this point, he hasn't put forward any kind of read on me at all. In addition, many of his posts up until this point (not to mention quite a few afterward) are pointless one-liners, or just generally non-contributing. The next thing he does is tell austin to read my filter as if I was scum (again, not argument put forward on his part - he is talking as if me being scum is a forgone conclusion). + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:18 austinmcc wrote: Show nested quote + Looking through his profile, I see his only other game was LIII. So he's at least played, although not with me. But he knows that some of the people in this game played that game, he played with them, he knows they are competent individuals with functioning brains.
It's the first time I've ever seen someone cling to something absolutely wrong in this manner. I have posted paranoid rants in two games, stuck by them for a while as possibilities, gotten upset if people wouldn't consider them as possibilities, but I didn't get like this.
Right now (and if Matt flips scum I will be more certain of the read) I can't help but read the whole thing like this: Matt got caught Ottoxlol tried to save him, without realizing how bad an idea it was Ottoxlol shortly realized how bad an idea it was A decent scum player told him right after he got caught looking very odd that he couldn't back off his defense, because then he'd look even scummier So he went full bore nuts, and that's why he won't listen to anyone or anything
It doesn't feel like he's just obtuse. At some point he'd get the message. It feels like he's clinging to this.
Do me a favor, and go read Gravan's filter as if he were a scum idiot Then he goes on to say that hap is on his scumlist for "coaching" me. + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:23 Hapahauli wrote: Show nested quote +
Null. Deal with it.
His posts/logic right now could come from either mafia or bad-townie. I don't have enough information to make a decision since hasn't posted much. Fortunately we have 48 hours to make a read on him.
yeah youre on my scum list so is gravan you openly coached him Afterwards, he includes doyouhas in this list. + Show Spoiler +filter On September 06 2012 07:27 imallinson wrote: Show nested quote +
I'd say Gravan looks real scummy right now. He attempted the same thing as Ottox, defending Matt by saying he was probably an assassin, but much more quietly and backed away as soon as he realised it was a bad idea. If anything that looks more scummy than Ottox at the moment.
THANK YOU. Go read Gravan's filter, and tell me if you don't find hapa coaching him? 2nd person I've caught him coaching that looks like scum with him (Doyouhas is the other) His next two posts that mention me go on to mention (offhandedly) the apparently obvious need to have me shot by a vig. Further, if you read his filter he is very non-comittal on the otto-defending-matt-and-generally-acting-scummy issue. His posts are passively worded and just softly agree with the flow of the thread at the time. At this point he has contributed very little and people are starting to notice. So he does what any scum would in that situation and makes a case. The problem is, and what makes the case seem really scummy, the case reads like it is there just to be there, to look like he is contributing. It seems to be entirely based on the fact that BM hasn't contributed much yet which Gravan is more guilty of himself. It reeks of OMGUS. The rest of his few posts are trying to defend this terrible case on BM and some vague mentions of being suspicious of DrH.
I don't think you have enough there to actually get someone lynched. Correct me if I am wrong, but your strongest argument right there is the soft defense of matt + low contribution? If so, I think you need a better case, because a few people soft defended matt and not many of them have been very useful so far.
The only thing Gravan has yet to answer for is why he voted for mattchew when his biggest theory was that he was an assassin. I've gone over his filter and have not foudn anything.
Regarding Bill Murray, he is a weird player I can't figure anything out of yet. He mostly hints at contributing asking questions as if we were to guess his thoughts, and occasionally actually says something. This can be both a townie trying to confirm his theories by fishing it out of others, or a scum not wanting to commit to any real case. I don't think he should be the focus right now.
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On September 07 2012 00:52 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 23:02 DarthPunk wrote: ... You have not answered me previously so I will ask again. Why are you so intent on defending who you seem to believe to be town Otto? Especially when you have leapt all over other players for far less scummy actions? There is no scum motivation. Think about what the objectives of hard-defending a teammate as mafia are. The goal of hard-defending a teammate is to prevent their lynch. It’s pretty clear that defending someone after they have 20-something votes on them is not going to prevent said lynch, so how can it be a mafia objective? It’s not a mafia objective, it’s screamingly bad townie. By contrast, If the lynch was close between two candidates, hard-defending makes sense from a mafia perspective. It’s not smart, but there’s mafia-motive. Regarding the whole “Mattchew was stupid therefore Ottox could be stupid mafia” – that’s a load of BS. As stated above, there’s a huge difference between stupid and mafia-motivated stupid. So as for your questions: I don’t find Ottox scummy. I see a lot of town motivation (even if stupid) behind his actions.
Yes there might be! It would fit his meta as posting without thinking! The first instinct a scum would have is defending his little buddy. Nevertheless, you CANNOT use that as an argument to lower suspicion on someone. It boils down to WIFOM, how do you know that he didn't want you to think that? This exactly what I did, as scum, in XIV, I tried to desperately voteswitch on YH last minute thinking it would make me seem townie, but it had the extreme opposite effect. It can easily be both things, so no conclusion can be drawn from his actions.
The reason I am inclined to think it goes on the scummier side of the fence is because of his meta, of how he just go ahead and sends posts without thinking about them. I am not convinced he is scum (I was after the "scumslip", but as you pointed out, it might have been meaningless as it implied having four mafia), but right now I am convinced that he is our best lynch. I don't think your case on Milton has enough on him to a point where he seems more scummy than otto.
Not at this moment anyways. Can you explain this point in made on him: A couple of questions he never pursues? I don't recall this from your posts. Also, why is When backing down from bad case, he passively questions another player pointed out to him w/out taking a stance" scum-motivated?
Also, if you want to include not going after his scumreads, making bad contributions, and general lurkiness, why do you still choose him over Mav? I personally think mav seems scummier because, unlike milton, he didn't even bother making a case on anyone. To me, that's scummier than making a bad case, as townies do it all the time.
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@Hapa Well, we're reading differently then. You insist that him going up against 20 votes makes him townier, I insist I don't think it makes a difference. I'm no expert on the term WIFOM, but you are drawing conclusions based on what mafia would or wouldn't do. But you are done discussing him, so whatever.
Misinformation to me is most likely a mistake. Once he realized it, he pulled back. Would be the same reaction if he was a townie who realized he made a bad case. I don't read this as scummy as you do, especially, like you said, since it was in D1.
Milton is doing the bare minimum to act like he's contributing. His bad case (regardless of it being against me or not) doesn't help him. Also, his case was filled with misinformation as opposed to bad logic. The latter is townie, while the former is not. It's consistent with scum trying to contribute without actually contributing.
Oh, so now he's acting he is contributing and not genuinely trying to just because you have your eyes on him? Why can't he be just trying to contribute, but doing a poor job at it? Why is this preferable over someone who is contributing jack shit? Sure it can be scum acting like he's contributing, but to me this is so ridiculous to go on based on a sea of how many other players are making weak and useless contributions. Imo, the pillar that separates him from the rest, in your view, is that he "fabricated" evidence, correct me if I'm wrong. I say this could very easily have come from a lack of reading, much like goodkarma's post. But you won't even consider that possibility.
Also, he attacked one of the most active townies. If I agreed with your Oxtott argument, I would even add: why would a mafia go ahead and do that, sticking his neck out instead of sheeping or picking some random lurker or going for an easier case?
I think you are overextending yourself on him. Discussion with you regarding him is useless at the moment as you will just attack him no matter what I or anyone says. Don't get me wrong, you may be absolutely balls out right regarding your read, but I just can't see how you would ever choose him over ox based on a "scum wouldn't do this" argument.
We need some other opinions here, our vigi(s) could use more of them.
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@Hopeless1der Read your case as well. The strongest points you had on him, I found, were:
1) His preemptive defense. I don't find reason for him to have defended himself like that, and his whole "received message via PM" seems fake as hell. He didn't have any posts displaying doubt before he supposedly sent the message, which is weird. 2) His inference on "blue fishing". I can't figure out, reading some of the previous posts, what he meant by that. Could that be perhaps what he was actually trying to do? 3) Possible scumslip on "the`n we find the rest of the scumteam". As if he was 100% convinced matt would flip scum. If he was actually 100% convinced, why would he bother explaining his vote, if it looked strange?
The rest of the post is just happenstance, could be anything. Looking forward to his defense.
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On September 07 2012 03:12 Hapahauli wrote: @ Z-Boson
I believe the misinformation distinguishes him from the other lurkers in a scummy way.
It's interesting that you bring up the whole "attacking active townie" thing, because the post he attacked me for was on page 2 (out of 6) on my filter. Seems pretty silly to determine who and who isn't an active townie only 2 hours into the game? For all he knows, I could go lurker-king after his accusation. Why should attacking a vocal townie or not determine whether or not he's mafia? Mafia-objectives are to cast illogical-suspicion to push for lynches; this is the core of their win-condition.
Anywho, we can agree to disagree. Arguing will get us nowhere if neither of our scumreads are posting.
You were saying he wanted to act townie. I don't think as mafia, attacking an active member is the best way to do that.
Well, I didn't realize it was that early in the game. Anyways, I said this more to draw a parallel between your arguments regarding what mafia would and wouldn't do, but I'm fed up with that discussion as I'm guessing you are.
Agreed, then. Shifting over, what is your take on H1's case against forumite?
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Well just woke up from a 14-hour hibernation Looks like I have a shitton to go through with. Before I do that, though, one thing
Hapa, I disagree completely with your first point on him. He confirmed his vote AFTER the mod confirmation, and the comments he made regarding him voting on mattchew:
On September 04 2012 16:20 BroodKingEXE wrote: About Mattchew (who I think is town): Here's my breakdown of the situation : Matt's roleclaimed and given two reasons he claimed to avoid mislynch and/or draw a mafia shot. At first glance the roleclaim seemed like a great idea, but as I thought about it there were just too many holes. My initial thought was that it was a good idea and that could have been Matt's (based on the reasoning too). Another problem I find with lynching him is that what he has done (roleclaim) isn't verifiable until he is lynched. Right now its a coinflip and I haven't seen anything else that suggests he is scum. Fakeclaims aren't good basis for a lynch, they're not even able to be confirmed until the lynch, so I cant vote for him unless his posting sounds scummy.
Was done BEFORE. You can't just dismiss this as if "he wasn't expecting a mod confirmation", because to be honest, neither was I.
I'll read his filter considering the second part of your post and see what I think.
Also, note how three-four people jumped in the bandwagon without mentioning this. I would think that this flip-flop being based on Palmar's confirmation would be fairly obvious...
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Actually, what is MORE suspicious than his flip-flop is how he didn't address BC when he tried to soft-defend mattchew. Here is what I'm thinking.
1) BC basically claims something to be the truth, and is heavily insistent on it. This something is enough to insta-lynch Mattchew without a second thought. BK agrees with this, because he voted on Mattchew after the confirmation.
2) On this same post:
On September 04 2012 16:20 BroodKingEXE wrote: About Mattchew (who I think is town): Here's my breakdown of the situation : Matt's roleclaimed and given two reasons he claimed to avoid mislynch and/or draw a mafia shot. At first glance the roleclaim seemed like a great idea, but as I thought about it there were just too many holes. My initial thought was that it was a good idea and that could have been Matt's (based on the reasoning too). Another problem I find with lynching him is that what he has done (roleclaim) isn't verifiable until he is lynched. Right now its a coinflip and I haven't seen anything else that suggests he is scum. Fakeclaims aren't good basis for a lynch, they're not even able to be confirmed until the lynch, so I cant vote for him unless his posting sounds scummy.
What holes? If he thinks the roleclaim has many holes, why can't I find them, and why does he completely disregard this later on saying that it is a coinflip?
So, from 1), it is absolutely certain that he agrees with the implication that if BC is right, then Mattchew should be auto-lynched. So, based on this post, he obviously thinks that BC is wrong. If so, why doesn't he bother convincing BC why he is wrong instead of completely ignoring him and making a bad attempt at defending Mattchew?
I can't think Mattchew is innocent without thinking BC is wrong. If I want to defend Mattchew, then I sure as fuck want to confirm that BC is lying.
Will get back with more.
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oh, didn't see that "fakeclaim does not mean insta-lynch" comment.
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I'm going to leave the BKE thing on hold for now, until we hear what he has to say. If he says nothing and doesn't bother scumhunting and gracing us with his thoughts on the game, then my vote will be on him 100%.
Meanwhile, I've done reading the post by Toad, and also took the time to read his filter from LI and what was the "best bus in TL history" he mentioned.
Your post had a ton of stuff to read, and I have some issues and some doubts regarding it. Let's do this.
First off, you post this:
On September 07 2012 03:58 Toadesstern wrote: I really don't like the cases on forumite (or vets in general this game) as they're incredibly far-fetched, which is obvious considering the fact that we're still on d1/n1. That being said I still (somewhat?) agree with the conclusion but I'll post shortly before deadline :p
Can I ask, what conclusion do you agree with? Because the conclusion on the case against forumite is this:
Why does Matt flipping red imply that I'm red as well? Why can't I be continuing to hunt scum? I still think Forumite is scum. My case was not an effort to divert the thread, it was an attempt to focus it. I wasn't around to do so, and feel free to call me scum for not following through before, but wait and see, you'll run out of steam on that front in a moment.
But that doesn't make sense with your "I don't like the case on forumite". Please do explain what conclusion you meant. Now, onward to your (seemingly classic) motherfuckin wall of text.
On September 07 2012 06:59 Toadesstern wrote:Toads very important thoughts mostly about VETs and whatever else I consider important so far I'm doing this post because I'm probably going to die tonight. I consider myself a vet and most people probably consider me a vet as well but unlike BC I usually don't draw protection from medics for two reasons I don't need to go into detail right now, although the reasoning becomes apparant after reading the whole thing :p First important topic: VETs in this game - Forumite
- BlackMamba24 (referred to as DrH from now on to not confuse him with BM)
- BloodyC0bbler
- Bill Murray
- Toadesstern/myself :p
That's my take on who's a vet in this game. A lot of people think it's hard to analyse vets to a point that they almost got a mental blockade when it comes to vets, that's why I'm going to post some about those 4/5 although I don't have anything major yet, though I've got a conclusion I'm quite comfortable with. First things first, I did this post ( + Show Spoiler [click me!] +On September 06 2012 07:40 Toadesstern wrote: Bam. Watcher on people like BC and me please.
Mafia will want to hit that. ) on purpose trying to get some reactions, mainly from vets. Simply put I was trying to rub a subtile "sup guys I'm comfirmed town now" into peoples faces to see what they're going to say. Why did I do that? 1) Yes, why did you do that? Let's see. Right now I'm looking for an explanation as to why you wanted to hear what vets had to say regarding your town claimI am an incredible controversial guy and a shitton of people are scared like crazy about me because I'm apparently unreadable according to them. I'm a little like BC-junior, or maybe WBG-junior in that regard because people tell me I'm looking pro-town no matter of alignment every single game. So usually I'm getting the same old crap about me every game "Toad is looking townish, but that's a null-tell because Toad always looks that way". Take AC for example, Radfield actually told his scumbuddies to just attack me for looking good because I'm always looking good. WBG called the play VE and I did in LI "the best bus TL has ever seen", he said I'm unreadable in PTP, I totally destroyed town in magic and surely everyone remembers the "Annul game" (sup palmer :p). Except for PyourPoison I destroyed pretty much every town I played against as mafia and every single game I was called a townie by the vast majority of the game while telling people what to do. That's the reason I'm getting these bullshit arguments like "Toad is unreadable" / "Toad is looking town but that means nothing" all the time. No matter if I'm town or mafia and frankly I was expecting to hear something like that from a mafia-player because it's an incredible easy approach to attack someone because you can just say that EVERY single game. Sadly it never happened. However I still ended up getting some reactions although they're minor ones.2*) So you are saying that you were expecting a vet to say you were unreadable etc. etc. and attack you based on it? i.e., had one of the four vets said anything in an aggressive manner, you would have pegged him as scum and attacked him later on?tl;dr / Summary so far:- I am town
- BC is pretty much town
- I highly lean on BM being town giving his style. He attacked me during this night for something he thought to be something. It obviously was nothing but his argument was not the typical "toad is unreadable, BE AFRAID GUYS" fear mongering I get all the time and I doubt a mafia would get in there attacking me the way he did.
That leaves us with Foru and DrH. DrH still feels odd although I can't put my finger on it. Foru feels way to cautios when he's posting. I'm almost certain one of those 2 got to be mafia and considering that my guts are telling me that foru feels cautios I'd rather bet on him being mafia by some degree.3*) So you don't like the cases on foru, you don't say why AND even add that you don't like targeting vets (in the previous post), and your guts are telling you that you would bet on him being mafia despite shitting on the main case against him so far? This all due to your experience with him and your gut feelings?The thing about this is that it's not a clear case. What I've got about those 3 (BM / foru / drH) so far is very minor and not worth making a case about so I'm not going to. However process of elimination is a nice approach for those kind of people and that being said I really doubt BM or BC are mafia. 4*) Ok, this explains why you aren't making cases against them and is being consistent with your "let's not target vets" approach. Since this part of your post mainly deals with vets, I am to assume this pseudo-read on forumite is just a comparative between the vets and not actually a real go-through-with-it suspicion?5**) Just to make it ultra-clear: Now that both DrH and BC are dead, do you think forumite/BM are mafia? People who are not vets but should be a topicOttox: No need to talk about him I guess DoYouHas: He's looking bad when posting but I actually like his answers strongandbig: That guy should be scared as shit about me but he isn't. Not at all. To be precise he's even pretty buddy-ish with me. I think he knows I'm not mafia. Do not like. BroodKingEXE: Weirdest vote from d1. Other than that he's fine but the vote really looks like "let's scatter at least SOMEWHAT, just pretend you forgot to unvote BKE" If Ottox somehow manages to survive the night you've got to lynch him no matter what. It's actually quite possible that we've got vigs thinking "well we probably got a bunch of vigs who want to shoot him so I don't need to as well. No need to quadrupel-stack him". I've been in that situation as well and ended up shooting my #2 reads instead of my #1 reads (AC comes to mind ) because I thought someone else would take care of the #1 read anyways because the guy was pretty much confirmed mafia. Ottox definitly is the best lynch if he survives. BKE & S+B are mentioned because I want people to check their filter as well. I'm not set on lynching them yet but they're the best candidates I've got besides the "usual" ones. I'd rather not have people just forget about them.6*) So now we've had a full case on BKE, and people are starting to sheep, what do you think on BKE? You mentioned him here as being fishy, and now I'm guessing you should be more than inclined to lynch him, yes? That being said I think it's quite likely I'm going to be dead in a couple of minutes so I'm posting this to give a couple of thoughts in case I'm not around any more. They're obviously all pretty vague because it's d1/n1 after all and thereforet it's just a summary. That means you've got to check filters yourself to understand what I'm talking about and wether or not you agree with me. Regretted not doing that in WoF when I was shot n1 as well ...
Right now we're having quite a luxury problem though: We're having to many people doing cases about everyone and their dog. That's totally fine in itself but you guys need to make sure you got some focus tomorrow. Talking about a lot of people is fine but if everyone's like a little gonzaw we'll have 25 people screaming "NO MY CASE IS THE BEST" and mafia has an easy time to pick a fitting case out of the 15915815 existing ones and will push that one. So don't spam the thread too much. This post I just did is already a wall-of-text although I'm only scratching the surface of things when talking about stuff. So keep that in mind tomorrow. 7) LOL at you/gonzaw in LI. He was extremely paranoid... funny thing was he was correct
Ok, so I've referenced the writings in red so you have an easier time answering. The quantity of asterisks in each number indicate how much I would like an answer from you. Btw, you sure have a high opinion of yourself. Also, I forgot to reference this, but since I do not want to change the whole numbering now, also, please answer this: 5.5*) Why should S&B be scared shitless of you?
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On September 08 2012 07:12 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 06:52 Toadesstern wrote: grush is mafia. BKE's probably; if BKE's not mafia it's probably foru?
But I had almost no time today as friends came over so I'll have to reread things tomorrow. Haven't even read what happened the last 4 hours so far except for an incredible fast read. Kill me it will help the town I promise :D
Wtf do you mean by this?
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If you are town stop clogging the thread with unhelpful garbage k thx
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He's saying that he visited BC and got back GK, because GK was the only one who visited him, when he exploded over BC. I'm not too comfortable lynching a watcher this early in the game, should he be telling the truth. To the vets: how common is there for there to be a watcher in a game of this size? Because if he is lying right now, the real watcher will screw him over later in the game, no? I'll think more about his claim, it seems way too convenient.
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I still don't buy the BKE claim.
Anyhow, Shady Sand's meta has been completely off from the games where he was town. In both the games I saw him as town, I felt like punching him because he wouldn't stop talking about his weird reads, and now he's all-out lurker. Will go over some filters to present some alternatives.
I've backed off of Maverick for now, due to BKE, and because we (me and hapa) were getting split from actually pursuing scum and it was being more of a setback and counter-productive. I still support a maverick lynch now, but I will not emphasize on it right now. My main concern right now is validating BKE's claim or not.
Also, I don't have experience with grush, but his play is not pro-town, that much we can say . (makes non-sense posts, sheeps mindlessly other players, doesn't make cases, etc.)
@austinmcc
Hmmm, so I seem to be scummy for... not answering back the answers to some questions that I myself brought up? rofl I've just gotten here an hour ago and am going through the thread, it's not like I'm on 24/7. Why don't you tell us your thoughts on toad instead, wouldn't that be more pro-town?
The rest of your "case", you just narrate my post history. Also, the timing of your case is terrible and completely anti-town. The town focus is to believe or not to believe in BKE and you attack one of the most active town members hours before the deadline.
If still you insist on making a case on me instead of analyzing the real candidates here, at least don't make a narrative from my posting history and actually draw some conclusions as to why I would be mafia.
@toad
Of course I didn't read the whole thing. Why would I do that if all I wanted was your meta? I also didn't read the entirety of your filter, because even THAT was too much. Just skimmed over your posts, reading your main cases and that pony image wall of text you posted. I still don't buy some of your answers. I will go over some other filters for now, because I don't think you are a realistic lynch choice for today.
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EBWOP In case I wasn't clear: My first lynch choice as of now, is BKE. Like slOosh said, he still has a LOT to answer for. The others I mentioned are next-in-line with my top scum suspicions, for now.
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On September 09 2012 03:06 DarthPunk wrote: I don't like how BKE has gone quiet. I need to sleep and it looks doubtful that we can't get a switch happening anyway.
I seriously hope that if BKE is actually town, he shows up. If I am a blue, and I am set to be lynched, I would definitely be answering to the cases against me left and right. Going AWOL is a scummy trait (i.e. mattchew).
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On September 09 2012 03:08 Toadesstern wrote: Going back to BKE. As mentioned I've got to leave now and I might not be able to be back before the deadline and the Grush-lynch I'd prefere is not going to happen.
BKE is still a good lynch due to everything besides the claim, it's just that I'd say a grush lynch is better because he's equally scummy without the off-chance of hitting a blue, but a grush lynch is not not going to happen.
Why are you so intent on not lynching grush? Do you think his play has been pro-town or are you familiar with his town meta? Actually I don't understand this post at all. You are saying a grush lynch is better, but it is not not going to happen? So... BKE is a better lynch, with grush being a better lynch? wtf do you mean
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On September 09 2012 03:01 slOosh wrote: Yea ... so I don't understand why people think a watcher claim absolves all the evidence against him prior to the claim. He is totally ignoring Hapa's case - there is no adequate explanation for his contradictions. It is extremely bad play to excuse scum just because they claim. Scum can lie, and it's what I'd expect from a cornered scum who can't properly defend himself.
Furthermore, that doesn't even include the validity of the claim itself. Consider his claim true. Then GK delivered 1KP to BC. Then GK must have bombed into BM24 (as a vig shot on him or bombing into Ottoxlol is near impossible). 1KP is missing and must have been protected via medic / jailkeep, who chose to protect someone other than BC / BM24. Scum thought it is a good idea to 1KP to BC, Bomb BM24, and 1KP to someone else.
It is much more likely that he is a liar and we should just lynch him.
Wait, if instead GK bombed BC, wouldn't a watcher see GK if he's watching BC? Doesn't bombing count as visiting?
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Oh didn't realize that he had already so many votes. I still think it is switchable, there's 4 hours to go... But this has to be consolidated, and if BKE doesn't show up, then yea, that's impossible.
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On September 09 2012 03:20 slOosh wrote: Oh wait I misunderstood your question. If GK bombed BC then a watcher watching BC would be dead.
Ohh, ok, forgot about that, thanks.
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@BKE Did you leave crumbs? Can you convince us in any better way that you are a watcher and you aren't lying through your teeth? Because, as scum, it's very very convenient to claim have investigated the player that didn't blow up and that is something everyone knows. It seems quite the lie.
@austin So, despite everything, you insist. First of all, you wasting time on this is extremely anti-town. Some of your points include, but are not limited to:
1) me winking at someone who FOSed me. 2) I never came back to discuss Palmar's confirmation. 3) I lied about reading LI. 4) the most townie thing I did in this game as of yet is a two-liner post. 5) me asking for toad's reads in a "wrong" way?
1) - 3) are just ridiculous. I cannot for the life of me say how those make me scummy. GK was the sole reason I got fucked as scum in XXIV, so I feel strongly towards him. Didn't know scums liked to wink to each other... 4) if you think that after reading my filter, GEZUS MAN!! 5) Not actually attempting to get information? What about that post that you were criticizing me for not answering back? Do you not consider that information regarding Toad? And if you don't, why were you on my tail for not answering it?
I can't take you seriously with cases like this, and properly responding to the other points against me would waste too much time. For now: The GK exchange is the only thing that could seem palpable in your case, and it is very weak. I chose not to pursue gk because my focus was elsewhere, and you can go ahead and check if I was not making cases against someone else. Also, other people also noted how gk was being contradictory and didn't pursue him, so why are you ignoring them? In the context of the thread, it is pretty evident why I brought Ottoxlol subject back. Read the thread, not just my filter, regarding that. I insist, save your case for D3 if you really think I'm scum.
Tell me this: you mentioned you believe BKE without saying why. Have you read the case on him? Doesn't it strike you odd that he has an extremely scummy filter and gave off an extremely convenient claim? Also, why have you dismissed all the info on toad with a "We need a more proper case against him to lynch him". Then you come to me with a half-assed case hours before the deadline and insist that I should be lynched? Disregarding the fact that it's insulting, it is also hella suspicious and inconsistent with your stated view on lynching toad.
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EBWOP I didn't even bring ottox subject back, I replied to the discussion people were having AND because of the new "scumslip" argument against him.
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@toadesstern
What do you make of austin's case against me? Do you agree with his arguments?
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First off, some of the posts against you you left unanswered.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 08 2012 05:13 Hopeless1der wrote:BKE, Your post: Show nested quote +Fakeclaims aren't good basis for a lynch, they're not even able to be confirmed until the lynch, so I cant vote for him unless his posting sounds scummy. can be broken out into the following. 2 is a supporting argument for 1 3 is the conclusion of why 1 and 2 are not reasons to vote, but you went ahead and voted because of 1 and 2. You're Scum On September 08 2012 05:15 Hopeless1der wrote: EBWOP: Your post at the extremes would read:
"I would NEVER vote a fakeclaimer, even if it was confirmed. I only vote scummy things." On September 08 2012 05:57 DoYouHas wrote:Ok, I think Hapa is right about Brood. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 16:20 BroodKingEXE wrote: About Mattchew (who I think is town): Here's my breakdown of the situation : Matt's roleclaimed and given two reasons he claimed to avoid mislynch and/or draw a mafia shot. At first glance the roleclaim seemed like a great idea, but as I thought about it there were just too many holes. My initial thought was that it was a good idea and that could have been Matt's (based on the reasoning too). 1. Another problem I find with lynching him is that what he has done (roleclaim) isn't verifiable until he is lynched. Right now its a coinflip and I haven't seen anything else that suggests he is scum. 2. Fakeclaims aren't good basis for a lynch, they're not even able to be confirmed until the lynch, so I cant vote for him unless his posting sounds scummy. 1. - This bit is fine. Not wanting to lynch just to verify a roleclaim makes sense. 2. - This is where it crosses the line into scum territory. In the space of one sentence Mattchew has gone from a roleclaim to a fakeclaim. It could be construed that what he is saying here is that the belief that someone has fakeclaimed and lynching them to confirm it is not a good enough reason. However, that isn't what he actually said. He said, "Fakeclaims aren't a good basis for lynch". That makes the contradiction Hapa pointed out both plain and valid. I also don't like how Brood left himself a way out with "so I cant vote for him unless his posting sounds scummy".
This explanation about Ottox is wrong. Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 05:10 BroodKingEXE wrote: About the Ottox thing, Ottox is a stubborn townie and people need to know that. If they don't he's going to be considered scummy for the wrong reason. I saw a lot of people piling on Ottox for a trait that he has as town (his ignorant stubborness), so I presented another thing I saw he wasn't doing (scumhunting) as a better reason. It makes no sense to defend your top scumread. Who gives a crap if someone is backing you up for the wrong reason? You make note of that and use it against them later. You don't try and convince them to not pressure the person you think is scummiest. This looks like BS to me. Also, I'm surprised you cite his lack of scumhunting as the only valid reason because earlier you posted this, directed at Toad: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 00:34 BroodKingEXE wrote: You can understand my fustration though right? Right now I see you as a player that's asking questions but not paying attention to the answers. Scummy in my book. So for Toad it was scummy but for Ottox it was completely innocuous? It seems far more likely that you were caught hedging than having this explanation be true. ##Vote: BroodKingEXE On September 08 2012 06:55 Maverick32x wrote:Ok, this probably will be my last post of the day, but I'm finally home and could read through BKE's filter properly. To be honest, I went into looking at BKE from a "Everyone is ganging up on him, and I don't think its deserved" perspective. I don't think anyone said this, but this is the evidence that I'm considering as the most damning... Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:21 BroodKingEXE wrote:On September 04 2012 09:16 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well. Hold up. Why would we want people with information roles to claim? Its basically a miller role that the town knows about why not? Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 12:13 BroodKingEXE wrote: Actually, Mattchew why should they claim now? Can't they just wait till its pointed out? Well okay, I know THIS has been brought up... but I just want to reiterate that this 'soft defending' makes me suspicious... not 100% scum.. just suspicious. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:52 BroodKingEXE wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Toadesstern wrote:--snipped-- On September 04 2012 09:35 BroodKingEXE wrote: @Toad Im still confused about the vote on slOosh. You didn't agree with him for starting a useless discussion and that's grounds for keeping your vote on him? There never was a vote on him to begin with lol An honorary vote, and even so you never got anything out of it despite the six or so posts metioning him. Seemed more like some sort of a push, against slo0sh, than a minor disagreement. This is just the last post on his slight attack on Toad. Which is significant to me beecaaauusse: Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 04:41 BroodKingEXE wrote:On September 06 2012 03:57 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 06 2012 03:49 Z-BosoN wrote: @goodkarma Just because he is up on my suspicion bar does not mean that he is scum. He could very well be a bad townie. If he is, the only motivation he has for defending matt and attacking toad is that he actually thinks that toad is more suspicious than matt, and if so, he's doing a shitty job at explaining himself. Also, him being obnoxious doesn't contribute to his defense. At least I am not that retarded to attack someone on the ground of their first post that was clearly a joke. I already explained my motivation two post ago. If you need some help understanding it you can ask for it nicely You dont joke about scum reads. You're scum, because you are trying to derail a lynch and not trying to bring up another canidate. Real townie would create a case and present a new option, but scum dont want to give away to much and wont do that. They'll try to plug an easy lurker after a derail. I really see this as putting the responsibility on someone else to make claims and to avoid doing it himself.... He just lights touched on a couple people, but clearly expected town to start lynching themselves. So yea, I'm good with this lynch....AND the one thing I'm concerned about is that we are tunneling. And that concerns me.... still worried about the lurkers!! On September 09 2012 03:56 Z-BosoN wrote: @BKE Did you leave crumbs? Can you convince us in any better way that you are a watcher and you aren't lying through your teeth? Because, as scum, it's very very convenient to claim have investigated the player that didn't blow up and that is something everyone knows. It seems quite the lie.
--snip--
And now, you are hopping from target to target. You make a big case against maverick, makes arguments, etc:
[QUOTE]On September 09 2012 00:28 BroodKingEXE wrote: Mav I view his stances on Matthew and I have been really wishy-washy, most likely scum not wanting to fully commit yet stay on the safe side of the lynch. [QUOTE]On September 07 2012 22:05 Maverick32x wrote: [QUOTE]On September 07 2012 20:51 Forumite wrote: [QUOTE]On September 07 2012 13:12 Maverick32x wrote: @Forumite- I guess we have different perspectives when it comes to scum hunting? The majority of players are town.. so wouldn't it be smarter to do some 'innocent until proven guilty'? As opposed to just blasting everyone because everyone else is doing it?
All this being said- I'm wondering if we should just lynch a lurker? I feel like allowing scum to lurk is a bad plan?I don´t think you are paranoid enough for this game. Everyone is a possible scum until they are confirmed or flip. If two players attack eachother, then you look at the conversation to get a feel if one of them are scummy, a case and a defence against that case is a source of information, but if you interfere in a way that shuts down the conversation, then that opportunity for information and analysis disappear.
As for lurker lynch, why don´t you want to lynch me? You called me scum after the daypost. [/QUOTE]
Because you're posting. And that's atleast an indication of some kind of engagement.
BKE has fluffy posts, defends Matt a bit, and then just kinda floats around....however, I'm sticking with my lurking instincts and just going to take ShiaoPi out. [/QUOTE] He thinks Im a lurker (below ShiaoPi) and has an opinion on me. But he doesn't see me as scummy quite yet.
[url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=55#1093]Mav 1[/url] [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=55#1094]Shiao 1[/url] [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=55#1095]Mav 2[/url] Read these two posts, he is suspicious of Shiao for "Trusting others reads". The second post suggests that he is worried about a bandwagon, strange that he doesn't comment on that himself.
[QUOTE]On September 08 2012 02:19 Maverick32x wrote: Wow. Sorry for my awful grammar .. on the phone on a train....
I'll switch to BKE... But I agree there are a lot of good cases existing... [/QUOTE] His turning point to me, Hapa's case. The same case in which he was suspicious of Shiao following. The fact that he replied meant that he didn't take the case as a good reason to vote for me. Therefore it makes no sense for him to vote for me.
[QUOTE]On September 08 2012 04:38 Maverick32x wrote: Is the vote deadline at 5pm cst?
I'm really struggling with a BKE lynch the more its discussed... Anyone else have thoughts?
I really think Hap is town- but I'm just not sure on his read... I'm in a training so just trying to post on breaks... [/QUOTE] This post can be read two ways 1: He is not sure of Hapa's read on me. (The reason he voted for me) 2: He is not sure of Hapa's alignment, which is basically questioning the read. The whole reason he votes for me at this point is that Hapa's read is the lynchpin, yet he doubts the read left and right.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 08 2012 06:55 Maverick32x wrote:Ok, this probably will be my last post of the day, but I'm finally home and could read through BKE's filter properly. To be honest, I went into looking at BKE from a "Everyone is ganging up on him, and I don't think its deserved" perspective. I don't think anyone said this, but this is the evidence that I'm considering as the most damning... Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:21 BroodKingEXE wrote:On September 04 2012 09:16 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well. Hold up. Why would we want people with information roles to claim? Its basically a miller role that the town knows about why not? Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 12:13 BroodKingEXE wrote: Actually, Mattchew why should they claim now? Can't they just wait till its pointed out? Well okay, I know THIS has been brought up... but I just want to reiterate that this 'soft defending' makes me suspicious... not 100% scum.. just suspicious. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:52 BroodKingEXE wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Toadesstern wrote:--snipped-- On September 04 2012 09:35 BroodKingEXE wrote: @Toad Im still confused about the vote on slOosh. You didn't agree with him for starting a useless discussion and that's grounds for keeping your vote on him? There never was a vote on him to begin with lol An honorary vote, and even so you never got anything out of it despite the six or so posts metioning him. Seemed more like some sort of a push, against slo0sh, than a minor disagreement. This is just the last post on his slight attack on Toad. Which is significant to me beecaaauusse: Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 04:41 BroodKingEXE wrote:On September 06 2012 03:57 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 06 2012 03:49 Z-BosoN wrote: @goodkarma Just because he is up on my suspicion bar does not mean that he is scum. He could very well be a bad townie. If he is, the only motivation he has for defending matt and attacking toad is that he actually thinks that toad is more suspicious than matt, and if so, he's doing a shitty job at explaining himself. Also, him being obnoxious doesn't contribute to his defense. At least I am not that retarded to attack someone on the ground of their first post that was clearly a joke. I already explained my motivation two post ago. If you need some help understanding it you can ask for it nicely You dont joke about scum reads. You're scum, because you are trying to derail a lynch and not trying to bring up another canidate. Real townie would create a case and present a new option, but scum dont want to give away to much and wont do that. They'll try to plug an easy lurker after a derail. I really see this as putting the responsibility on someone else to make claims and to avoid doing it himself.... He just lights touched on a couple people, but clearly expected town to start lynching themselves. So yea, I'm good with this lynch....AND the one thing I'm concerned about is that we are tunneling. And that concerns me.... still worried about the lurkers!! His first reason behind voting for me is that he is "suspicious" of my soft defending. He's still not willing to commit, even putting in a point that doesn't even strike him as necassarily scummy. The second point doesn't make sense either, there's a difference between a hard push and a soft push. Toad was doing what I considered at the time a soft push, he later explained that his slo0sh "push" was drawing reaction. Ottox wasn't doing any pushing just trying to move the lynch to god knows who (since he never made a strong push). How is asking Ottox to find scum, scummy? Doesn't any townie have to make claims, so there's nothing wrong with asking Ottox to post his reads. He then finishes off his post with another point of doubt, doesn't even finish with saying Im scum!
Mav doesn't want to commit to killing any townie. He is scum: ##Vote: Maverick32x[/QUOTE]
Then you go with:
[QUOTE]On September 09 2012 00:50 BroodKingEXE wrote: [QUOTE]On September 09 2012 00:26 austinmcc wrote: [QUOTE]On September 09 2012 00:21 Shady Sands wrote: Thanks.
Ergo, we have no way to verify BKE's claim...[/QUOTE]Right. Either he's a watcher OR he chose a fakeclaim so bad it could be disproven pretty much by flips alone. And it wasn't a pressure claim, he was getting called out all yesterday, then claimed while nobody was doing anything.
I'm currently believing the claim since it seems like a giant risk to take when you're already down 2. Heck, why go with a terrible fake claim when you could name anything?
BM, where you at? We discussed scum having/not having some sort of leader earlier. I'd like to hear your updated thoughts.
Ottoxlol flipped town, so it's not a case where mattchew/ottox/gravan all messed up and looked scummy D1. 2 vets died, so they're not options as some sort of mafia general, commanding the troops.
Now we've got this BKE claim. Do you believe that claim? Are there players you could see saying, "hey you, go make a terrible fakeclaim that's so bad people will have trouble thinking it's from scum"? I don't see BKE, if scum, going that route, because you don't really gain anything compared to a better fake claim. [/QUOTE] I have to be honest, Im just laying it out. In XIII Newbie, I was One-Shot and didn't claim and everyone said I should've. I don't want to make the same mistake. I know me getting GK back is useless, but I need town to know what you guys will be lynching. Medic should not claim definetly(if we have one and they acted), else we both die. I picked BC primarily for the reason that Matt was his first pick and he was using the lynch to look around for other scum. He was speaking with really solid logic and had a few scum reads already. DrH was under a bit of fire, so I wasn't sure if scum was going to let that sit and develop. I didn't think Toad was active enough to be killed that night, but he had by then moved to my town list due to his response to my case.
Just to make it clear I think Shady and Mav are scum[/QUOTE]
So, ok, it's clear you think mav and Shady are scum. And now:
[QUOTE]On September 09 2012 03:56 BroodKingEXE wrote: @Austin Your case looks good except for the smiles. They seem more like a mockery of GKs original smile.
##Unvote ##Vote: Z-Boson[/QUOTE]
With a "your case looks good" (I don't know if it's because I'm the one being targeted, but that case looks everything BUT good...)
This when you are pretty much set to be lynched. Now you are also looking like a cornered scum trying to find a way out because you cannot back your crappy claim.
Goddamn, I sure hope you aren't town....
##Vote BroodKingExe
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EBWOP: wth?? why the quote not work??
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On September 09 2012 04:23 BroodKingEXE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 04:11 Forumite wrote:On September 09 2012 04:03 BroodKingEXE wrote:On September 09 2012 04:01 Forumite wrote: Caught up. Still think scum held a killpower in order to get another night to find blues before they need to worry about the blues finding them.
I like the lynch we have and am keeping my vote on BKE, he´s too quiet for a player up for the lynch.
I have a read as "useless troll that needs to die" on grush. Seriously, what was that 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 song about? What are you talking about, Ive been here. Yeah, and while you were here you´ve made cases on Maverick, Shady and Z-boson and a few one-liners, but since your claim you haven´t talked about yourself. You have loads of votes on you, but you focus on pointing out scummier targets instead of defending yourself. Well usually its better to present s lynch option than just purely defend. Here's my side of things Mattchew claimed nosy neighbor, I believed the claim and had no reason to believe it was fake. The theory of him claiming as town had holes, but I viewed that there could have been a benefit at a quick glance. When Palmar confirmed neighbors didnt know their alighnment, I didnt see any reason for him to lie, and he didnt make any attempt to explain his claim at all. Despite being somewhat active before the discussion started. He gets lynched, so we look at Ottox. Ottox is being his stubborn self and people are starting to get a scum read on him. Ottox being stubborn isnt alignment indicative, so I point that out, but his lack of scumhunting is scummy. No one's really commented on my recent cases, so Ill end it there.
The problem is it doesn't seem you are trying to present us with a better case. You went for maverick, who had both me and one or two other people pointing fingers at him. You made a case on him. You showed why you think he was scum. THEN, out of the blue, you go ahead and vote for me when I have 2 or 3 votes on me, and saying that you agree with a (again, this might be biased, but I honestly think it is a) rubbish case, in which even austin said it was a "half-case". That was enough to make you insta-change your vote from someone you actually had a decent case on to someone else.
That just made it seem like you are desperately trying to find an escape wagon to jump on. That being said, I was the logical choice, because besides you, I (for some magical reason) have more votes on me than anyone but you (except maybe for grush, I don't know).
I think if you were townie, you would most likely insist on mav, had it been an actual meaningful suspicion on your behalf. Cornered scum is what you are.
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No one has commented on your cases because you yourself don't give them traction!! How do you expect to convince people to vote for someone else if you yourself can't give better reasons and don't support your own claims??
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On September 09 2012 04:35 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 03:47 Shady Sands wrote:On September 09 2012 03:40 austinmcc wrote:On September 09 2012 03:37 Shady Sands wrote: I'm not convinced on Z-B being a scum because he had some pretty acrimonious exchanges with GK on D1. In all the games I've played, scum pretty much ignore each other D1, so that's a very strong town-tell in my books. Look at their filters. The most acrimonious thing is GK FoSing Z-Boson. To which he responds with smilies. GK points out that weird "If matt is town if matt is scum" post, but does nothing with it. I find no acrimonious exchanges, and only one real accusation that's just an FoS followed by smilies. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=32#630This is what I was referring to. Still on a second look it does look weaker than I expected. Could be a distancing move, although at this point it's not enough for me to base a lynch upon (especially when BKE looks so scummy.) Going to take a nap now. That one has strong language, but nothing behind it. Inconsistent, contradictory, post full of crap, your post has been quite suspicious...POOF. That's it. His conclusion is "you demonstrate a lack of reading and a lack of consistency." Not that GK was scummy. Not that GK was scum. Just that GK didn't read, was inconsistent, contradictory, suspicious, and...nothing. IF Z-BosoN was really calling out GK there, really making him seem scummy, really being acrimonious, wouldn't GK respond? Wouldn't he answer some of Z-BosoN's questions? Get upset that Z-BosoN found him scummy? Cuz he didn't. At no point in time does he respond to that Z-BosoN post.
Ok, now you've cleared things up. Your main case against me is:
1) me calling out goodkarma 2) him not responding
Ok, let's see. Hapa calls him out much stronger, even saying he is scum:
On September 05 2012 09:32 Hapahauli wrote: @ GoodKarma
Are we reading the same game? Why are you agreeing with me on Mattchew? I wasn't the one who made the case.
Also, Grush is nowhere near a modkill - he has several posts and a vote already.
In that list of lurkers, how is Lvdr "semi-lurking" - he doesn't even have a post!
On September 05 2012 09:52 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 09:51 BlackMamba24 wrote: GoodKarma - are you going to vote for mattchew right now?
GoodKarma is scum for this reason - he says that mattchew is confirmed scum but then doesn't vote for him and tries to push suspicion onto me instead, appeals to BC (buddying up to a vet, classic newbie scum)
basically the same as treehugger or whoever in tl mafia xxx who says "yeah youngminii is scum for sure but im not gonna vote for him and instead make a case on this random dude" The strange thing is that he buddied up to me and not to BC. Hell it's pretty clear from his post that he didn't read the thread, given his stances on Grush and lvdr.
He says this, but doesn't push or vote on GK. Why? Because the town focus was not on him, it was on mattchew, who was pretty much confirmed scum after the confirmation!!
And hmm... gk doesn't answer him... suspicious.... SO WHAT ?!??! He didn't answer because he didn't want to. So if this is your main point, why are you not going for him? Also, there was blackmamba who noted gk's shitty post:
Right now you have two logical choices, expand your dumb accusations to include another active poster, or back off because your arguments are terribad.
Given the situation we are in right now, I will insist for the last goddamn time you choose the latter.
PRE EDIT: LOL. So he was scummy in a game you played with him. So if he's scummy now, he must be town because that's what you expect, and you want me to waste time reading that game? AND, that is supposed to be stronger than him making a bad claim and trying to wriggle his way out by jumping on the most promising bandwagon. Ok, I'm done answering you.
EDIT#2: Yes, I forgot about BM, who also made accusations vs gk that were unanswered:
On September 05 2012 09:51 BlackMamba24 wrote: GoodKarma - are you going to vote for mattchew right now?
GoodKarma is scum for this reason - he says that mattchew is confirmed scum but then doesn't vote for him and tries to push suspicion onto me instead, appeals to BC (buddying up to a vet, classic newbie scum)
basically the same as treehugger or whoever in tl mafia xxx who says "yeah youngminii is scum for sure but im not gonna vote for him and instead make a case on this random dude"
On September 05 2012 09:37 BlackMamba24 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 09:27 goodkarma wrote:I would agree with Hapa that Mattchew is almost a 100% scum read. He's done a good job of highlighting why. But there is more than one scum. We need to move past Mattchew onto pressuring other people. A scum lynch day one puts us in an excellent position going forward. Looking at others' filters I couldn't help but notice that there still are a considerable number of people that need to participate more to help ensure a strong pro-town environment going into day 2. Grush is at modkill-threshold. I don't expect he's going to be around all that much longer. Until he makes his first post, I consider any time spent pressuring him as a waste. On the other hand, Gravan, Lvdr, austinmc, maverick, ShadySands, and ShioPi all stand out to me as semi-lurkers. Some of them seem to have legitimate reasons (such as ShadySands), but that doesn't mean they aren't scum with legitimate reasons. As for things that have stood out to me: -Obviously, Ottoxlol made a rather out of place vote after it was apparent Mattchew was lying. I don't feel this is a scum tell, as from a scum perspective Mattchew is pretty much "confirmed scum" at this point. Scum would be dumb to not bus him. It doesn't guarantee he's innocent, but it feels like his vote is too out of place to have been made by scum. -BlackMamba's early vote against Cobbler still stands out to me. Cobbler started the initiative to get Mattchew lynched, convincing me that he's "confirmed town." I just don't see any scenario where Cobbler as scum aggressively buses his partner day one. Yet BlackMamba voted him with little reason, then turned around and tacked on more of an explanation a little later. BlackMamba's play here makes sense from a scum perspective, as he could have been trying to avert attention away from Mattchew. Also, he isn't transparent with his reads. As town, I see no reason why he'd withhold them, as he does here: On September 04 2012 12:05 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 04 2012 12:00 goodkarma wrote:@BlackMamba:On September 04 2012 11:30 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 04 2012 11:03 goodkarma wrote:Hey all A couple general observations for what I've just read: -I don't follow some of the voting that's already taken place in this thread. I don't get why some of us feel the need to vote for each other this early with little to no information to back a vote up. Imho, we should be working to establish a strong, pro-town atmosphere just as much as we are to find a lynch candidate for today. -I remember Hapa saying this once before: lynching one of the most vocal members day one is typically not the best idea. Looking back at how NMM XXIV turned out (Shady's lynch), others here should agree with me that there's at least some evidence to support this. Town loses so much more from a mislynch of a vocal town than of a semi-lurker, and, at least in my experience, you're much more likely to lynch a town than a scum when you target the most vocal day one player. I'm not going to assume that sloosh is town at this point, but the effort he's taken to pressure others with his posts is definitely conducive towards a pro-town atmosphere. Along those lines, I feel that Z-Boson's early vote on sloosh could very well be scum motivated. I disagree that sloosh's discussion is unhelpful. Maybe scum or town could pressure people like sloosh has, but he's pushing for more information so he's not stuck making a weak case against others, as Z-Boson has with sloosh: ##FoS: Z-Boson Can you explain why it's scum motivated? Why does scum want sloosh out of the game when all he's doing is arguing with Toadesstern and asking dumb questions First, I'd like to specify that asking questions that get others to discuss their reads on other players, or to defend themselves for something suspicious said in their posts, is not "dumb." I in fact find it suspicious from a townie perspective to call many of the lines of questioning recently presented in this thread as "dumb," since so far most of it has produced productive discussion. From a scum perspective, though, a statement like this does make sense. Scum has the knowledge of who is and isn't scum, so to them watching people they know to be town attacking each other could look pretty "dumb." Second, at the time I posted that sloosh was one of the most outspoken people in the game. From a scum perspective, it would make sense to remove an outspoken person day one. Especially if said person was furthering discussion by poking and prodding others with a lot of questions. While we're at it, I'd like to ask about this: On September 04 2012 11:34 BlackMamba24 wrote: Anyway - ##vote BloodyC0bbler. Nosy Neigbor specifies that you will not know who you visited, not "you will not know that you are the nosy neighbor" which implies that they would at least know they are the nosy neighbor.
Nosy Neighbor makes a lot of sense as a scum fakeclaim it's probably what I would claim if I had to and thinking about SNB from Death Note mafia I have no reason to implicitly trust mattchew but the fact that you're throwing suspicion on him this early and this stupidly is completely consistent with your scum meta so bye What's with the vote for BloodyCobbler? He's pretty much a lurker at this point, but you're voting him for non-policy reasons... This feels like a scum getting behind a safe lurker lynch vote, at least at the time you wrote it (it just came to my attention as I'm about to post this that another page of postings have taken place, and cobbler has just made another post...)... My guess is this is a pressure vote, but I would appreciate a bit more of an explanation if you could provide it. because BC is full of shit and also making up stuff mattchew never said i'll never policy vote, i hate even reading the words next to each other i respectfully disagree about sloosh and how productive he has been but i'm not going to argue about it. i won't say anything about my read on him or toadesstern right now. hope that satisfies you I don't understand why it is that he can't share reads on sloosh and toadstern if he has them. Refusing to be transparent does not help town. ##FoS: BlackMamba I look forward to hearing BlackMamba's reply, especially regarding his reads on sloosh and toadstern that he refused to share. this is dumb, ask BC why also no i'm not giving you my reads, reads are fucking stupid any other questions
So that means he's scum right?? I mean, he attacked GK, but a bit uncompromisingly, no? And.. lol... GK DIDN'T ANSWER HIM??? omfg scum! scum!
No. This means SHIT given the context the thread was in. I'm done. If you are town, I honestly hope you trip, bang your head, and when you wake up you realize the error of your ways.
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@Bill Murray You are awfully quiet. Can you share just little bit of you vet wisdom?
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Well to be honest, I was a little edgy regarding BC:
On September 04 2012 12:06 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote + (...) What's with the vote for BloodyCobbler? He's pretty much a lurker at this point, but you're voting him for non-policy reasons... This feels like a scum getting behind a safe lurker lynch vote, at least at the time you wrote it (it just came to my attention as I'm about to post this that another page of postings have taken place, and cobbler has just made another post...)... My guess is this is a pressure vote, but I would appreciate a bit more of an explanation if you could provide it.
Wait what? He's a one-liner semi-lurker who answers in riddles and you are ok with that and is defensive on him? Tell us why you think that not answering the godamn question straight-up of why he is so sure of the whole miller deal is pro-town?
On September 04 2012 12:29 Z-BosoN wrote: It's not like it's the end of the deadline, we are still a long ways to go... plus, votes don't count in this thread.
Also, the discussion up to now is going nowhere. BC has made it a point to say that he knows something we don't, but won't clarify. If he did indeed learn something game changing as that, I presume Palmar would have announced it in this thread.
So, he's directed the whole discussion at him, and has disappeared. This is all but productive..
So I began the post by saying how full of shit he was. So that first part I wrote before reading slOosh's post, which clarified the situation and sounded extremely reasonable:
On September 04 2012 12:58 slOosh wrote: BC is forcing a 1-1, basically a lynch between him and Mattchew.
On his side its raw gutsyness, and as people have pointed out if it's a scum strat then it ends up with a D2 lynch on him, or even a N1 vig shot; it is unlikely that he would pull this off to kill a town Mattchew as I don't think anyone can wriggle out of the subsequent backlash lynch. A 1-1 on Mattchew is stupid, especially if it could end up him (BC) lynched first, which would make it a 1 for nothing.
On Mattchew's side is the self-aware miller claim. If millers were self-aware, they would out themselves, and it would strengthen his claim. If they aren't self-aware as they usually aren't, he would be safe until someone flipped nosy neighbor, in which case his lie would be exposed and he lynched. In a big game like this, potentially worth it.
Unlikely that both are town as it would mean a lying townie. Unlikely that both are scum cause it's so sub-optimal.
I'd lynch Matt first on the basis that BC's demeanor seems more honest than Mattchew's. I mean, some guy is screaming his head off that you are a liar, and if you know that your role PM is "Nosy Neighbour" then the other guy (BC) must be an idiot or a liar. Mattchew isn't treating him like an idiot, nor is he treating him like a liar. The response is off (I base this off my experience fake claiming in Bureaucracy Mafia). If we get ... news of something otherwise, it's easy enough to switch. But even without it behavior analysis should be enough.
Dunno why you haven't thought of voting him though BC. ##Vote: Mattchew
So then I made the rest of the post agreeing that it was perfectly reasonable for mattchew to be lynched. I honestly just forgot to erase the beginning of the post, which initially was meant to say that BC was full of shit (note how I started with "first of all").
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On September 09 2012 06:03 BroodKingEXE wrote: @Z what was your thought after Palmar's mod confirm?
95% scum. 5% retard.
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@imallinson
I'm guessing they are just missing one shot. Mafia have 2kp + vigi + bomber to kill with. I agree that ottox was probably a town vigi kill, so there is one kp missing, no? gk - BC or BM 1 kp - BM or BC 1 kp - ??? It's most likely that the mafia vigi didn't waste his shot, no?
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BKE played this awfully... I think two things could have absolved him (disregarding his poor choices of decisions toward the very end):
1) Him leaving a breadcrumb. This would make his claim seem more believable...
2) A vet confirming my question earlier on, a question in which I probably would have insisted in if I weren't unnecessarily pressured to having defending myself during the last hours of day two.
He's saying that he visited BC and got back GK, because GK was the only one who visited him, when he exploded over BC. I'm not too comfortable lynching a watcher this early in the game, should he be telling the truth. To the vets: how common is there for there to be a watcher in a game of this size? Because if he is lying right now, the real watcher will screw him over later in the game, no? I'll think more about his claim, it seems way too convenient.
This makes me highly suspicious of the remaining vets. Because BKE would clearly be a scumtell later on once the real watcher showed himself and attacked BKE. The only information that was required was the likelihood of there actually being a watcher, in which case BKE's claim would have been stupid as hell, as we were certainly gonna peg him scum once the real watcher showed himself.
I don't like how none of the veterans helped out at all during all of this. I am strongly inclined to think that at least one of them is scum. I also expected hapa to consider this, because something similar happened in XXIV (thrawn's vigi claim would have been utterly stupid as scum, because the real vigi would simply unmask him later on.)
The situation here was a bit more delicate, because we don't know for certain if there HAS to be a watcher. If someone could confirm the likelihood of there being a watcher (as I think it is very high), then BKE might actually have been saved.
But I'm sure that if this were the case, then at least someone with more experience would manifest himself.
I myself should have just not bothered with the crappy case against me, because lynching a watcher is quite a loss, and I should have been more insistent of when I thought of this possibility.
We are still in a good position, and I will go over the vets' filter, probably tomorrow.
@austin Now that you cannot possibly lynch me, save your case against me for day 3, should we both live. Discuss what I've discussed here, and see if you agree. If your case against me had come a little bit later, (it was 5 minutes after the quote referenced above), I would have interpreted this as scum-motivated attempt, because it could have been an intentional disruption. Your attack on me couldn't have been more badly timed, and your reasoning for giving up on voting for BKE would have even gotten my support if I had a clearer head about my initial thought on how stupid it would be for a watcher fakeclaim, if the odds are there is always a watcher.
You are thick, but I'm confident that I can defend myself against your arguments if you can be more objective and less narrative/judgemental with your cases.
@Hapa: I don't like how you ignored/didn't see this possibility. Also, you hopped on austin's poor arguments needlessly, as it was clearly not going to get anything done, and even questioned a distant post I had made. His case against me seemed genuine (but stupid), your decision to hop on it + not even considering this point I made about a BKE fakeclaim out of the blue, after having said that you thought I was a "confirmed townie" did not.
After cooling off and having thought more carefully about this, I feel very strongly about this point. Now that I have basically called everyone out, someone please confirm, as I am confident there is at least a townie vet:
Can we, with bloodyc0bbler's 100% certainty, assume that there necessarily is one, and just one watcher?? If not 100%, how likely is it?
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Later BKE! Hope I can read you better next time
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One more thing that's nagging at me:
On September 08 2012 15:58 BroodKingEXE wrote: Guys this lynch is not happening. Its like 12:00 PST I'll make a good case in the morning, but Im forced to say Im Watcher. Night One I visited BC and got back GK -_-.
If he visited BC and got back GK, why didn't he die? If the watcher watches a house, is he not "visiting" it as well, and thus will get killed by the bomber? I'm not getting these roles at all...
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On September 09 2012 08:21 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 07:57 Z-BosoN wrote:BKE played this awfully... I think two things could have absolved him (disregarding his poor choices of decisions toward the very end): 1) Him leaving a breadcrumb. This would make his claim seem more believable... 2) A vet confirming my question earlier on, a question in which I probably would have insisted in if I weren't unnecessarily pressured to having defending myself during the last hours of day two. He's saying that he visited BC and got back GK, because GK was the only one who visited him, when he exploded over BC. I'm not too comfortable lynching a watcher this early in the game, should he be telling the truth. To the vets: how common is there for there to be a watcher in a game of this size? Because if he is lying right now, the real watcher will screw him over later in the game, no? I'll think more about his claim, it seems way too convenient. This makes me highly suspicious of the remaining vets. Because BKE would clearly be a scumtell later on once the real watcher showed himself and attacked BKE. The only information that was required was the likelihood of there actually being a watcher, in which case BKE's claim would have been stupid as hell, as we were certainly gonna peg him scum once the real watcher showed himself. I don't like how none of the veterans helped out at all during all of this. I am strongly inclined to think that at least one of them is scum. I also expected hapa to consider this, because something similar happened in XXIV (thrawn's vigi claim would have been utterly stupid as scum, because the real vigi would simply unmask him later on.) The situation here was a bit more delicate, because we don't know for certain if there HAS to be a watcher. If someone could confirm the likelihood of there being a watcher (as I think it is very high), then BKE might actually have been saved. But I'm sure that if this were the case, then at least someone with more experience would manifest himself. I myself should have just not bothered with the crappy case against me, because lynching a watcher is quite a loss, and I should have been more insistent of when I thought of this possibility. We are still in a good position, and I will go over the vets' filter, probably tomorrow. @austinNow that you cannot possibly lynch me, save your case against me for day 3, should we both live. Discuss what I've discussed here, and see if you agree. If your case against me had come a little bit later, (it was 5 minutes after the quote referenced above), I would have interpreted this as scum-motivated attempt, because it could have been an intentional disruption. Your attack on me couldn't have been more badly timed, and your reasoning for giving up on voting for BKE would have even gotten my support if I had a clearer head about my initial thought on how stupid it would be for a watcher fakeclaim, if the odds are there is always a watcher. You are thick, but I'm confident that I can defend myself against your arguments if you can be more objective and less narrative/judgemental with your cases. @Hapa: I don't like how you ignored/didn't see this possibility. Also, you hopped on austin's poor arguments needlessly, as it was clearly not going to get anything done, and even questioned a distant post I had made. His case against me seemed genuine (but stupid), your decision to hop on it + not even considering this point I made about a BKE fakeclaim out of the blue, after having said that you thought I was a "confirmed townie" did not.
After cooling off and having thought more carefully about this, I feel very strongly about this point. Now that I have basically called everyone out, someone please confirm, as I am confident there is at least a townie vet: Can we, with bloodyc0bbler's 100% certainty, assume that there necessarily is one, and just one watcher?? If not 100%, how likely is it? (1) Breadcrumbs can be laid by both sides. No reason for scum not be leaving breadcrumbs for fakeclaims except laziness. (2) It's a watcher/tracker game. Generally in a normal the roles aren't in the OP if they're not going out. We don't know #s, but all of those roles are most likely in the game. The numbers are up to whatever setup palmar rolled or picked, we can't know for sure. Nobody can answer your question.
Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 08:07 Z-BosoN wrote:One more thing that's nagging at me: On September 08 2012 15:58 BroodKingEXE wrote: Guys this lynch is not happening. Its like 12:00 PST I'll make a good case in the morning, but Im forced to say Im Watcher. Night One I visited BC and got back GK -_-. If he visited BC and got back GK, why didn't he die? If the watcher watches a house, is he not "visiting" it as well, and thus will get killed by the bomber? I'm not getting these roles at all... All scum can carry out a NK in addition to their role. GK used his role on BM24, killing BM24 and anyone who was visiting him. GK carried out 1 of the scum NKs on BC. It did 1 KP, nobody protected or jailed BC, BC died. Some unknown person carried out the 2nd scum NK on an unknown person. That person was protected or jailed.
The case against you isn't poor. You say it is, hapa doesn't like it because of his earlier meta read, but I'm alright with calling you out for what you've done so far. You look bad. I'm not awful at this when I put effort in. Not a vet, played poor in newbie games, but I've been doing pretty well lately. Pretty sure you're scum.
Ah, I get it now, makes sense. Well, I think it's poor, you don't, whatever. However, I wouldn't say things like "I've been doing well lately, I'm sure you are scum, etc." as it will make you look insanely bad later on, should you be wrong. Like I said, and I will say again, this is my last attempt to go through your thickness: let's discuss me in day three. Me being scum or townie is pointless right now. I want the town focus to be on the veterans, because of the part you completely ignored in my post.
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On September 09 2012 08:21 Hapahauli wrote:@ Z Boson1)First of all, I don't like you making posts criticizing BKE's play. I'm still a bit stupified from the result, but in retrospect, he did all he could to defend himself. Show nested quote +@Hapa: I don't like how you ignored/didn't see this possibility. Also, you hopped on austin's poor arguments needlessly, as it was clearly not going to get anything done, and even questioned a distant post I had made. His case against me seemed genuine (but stupid), your decision to hop on it + not even considering this point I made about a BKE fakeclaim out of the blue, after having said that you thought I was a "confirmed townie" did not. 2)Austin doesn't necessarily have a poor argument. Your Mattchew Vote post does not make you look good. I know I mentioned that I thought you were town based on GoodKarma's filter, but the more and more I think about it, the more and more I think that GK's filter was a massive WIFOM mindbomb. I never said you were a confirmed townie I said you were "likely" town, and I'm going to have to throw that assumption out the window for now.
1) Yea, jumping around his vote, ignoring his own cases, and looking to join the bandwagon with most votes on it seems extremely defensive.
2) How does it not make me look good? What's the theory? Are you gonna throw me in with the other dozen of people who could have maybe soft-defended Mattchew? And dare you not use the GK argument, as I have shown it to be terribad, and you actually agreed with it. Also, I don't absolutely neglect looking suspicious, my concern with you is more related to the timing of when you chose to go after me. What could you, as town, have possibly hoped to accomplish? The town focus should have been on validating the BKE lynch. Do you agree with this? Don't dodge, answer: yes or no.
Did you read my post? Both you and austin have ignored the most important part of my post. Like I've stated, I think focusing on the veterans, for this night, should be ideal, as I have reason to believe at least one of them is.
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Also, @austin:
It's a watcher/tracker game. Generally in a normal the roles aren't in the OP if they're not going out. We don't know #s, but all of those roles are most likely in the game. The numbers are up to whatever setup palmar rolled or picked, we can't know for sure. Nobody can answer your question.
Yea, but bloodyc0bbler "knew" that nn weren't self-aware. This could easily be one of those things. That's why I want a vet confirming this, what is the statistical likelihood.
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@austin Ok, I tried... I'm definitely ignoring you all-out now. I've shared that reason well enough with the class. I even repeated it a few times. Disagreeing with it is one thing, blatantly mind blocking the text is a whole other.
@Hapa
Theory is simple - why attack the person pushing the lynch and seemingly criticize the argument behind the lynch... then end up voting for the lynch. As town, it would make more sense for you to full-on support the lynch with your post. I find that stuff scummy, but no where near definitive (hence me not bolding your name red).
Well, I answered this a while back:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 09 2012 05:51 Z-BosoN wrote:Well to be honest, I was a little edgy regarding BC: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 12:06 Z-BosoN wrote: (...) What's with the vote for BloodyCobbler? He's pretty much a lurker at this point, but you're voting him for non-policy reasons... This feels like a scum getting behind a safe lurker lynch vote, at least at the time you wrote it (it just came to my attention as I'm about to post this that another page of postings have taken place, and cobbler has just made another post...)... My guess is this is a pressure vote, but I would appreciate a bit more of an explanation if you could provide it.
Wait what? He's a one-liner semi-lurker who answers in riddles and you are ok with that and is defensive on him? Tell us why you think that not answering the godamn question straight-up of why he is so sure of the whole miller deal is pro-town? Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 12:29 Z-BosoN wrote: It's not like it's the end of the deadline, we are still a long ways to go... plus, votes don't count in this thread.
Also, the discussion up to now is going nowhere. BC has made it a point to say that he knows something we don't, but won't clarify. If he did indeed learn something game changing as that, I presume Palmar would have announced it in this thread.
So, he's directed the whole discussion at him, and has disappeared. This is all but productive.. So I began the post by saying how full of shit he was. So that first part I wrote before reading slOosh's post, which clarified the situation and sounded extremely reasonable: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 12:58 slOosh wrote: BC is forcing a 1-1, basically a lynch between him and Mattchew.
On his side its raw gutsyness, and as people have pointed out if it's a scum strat then it ends up with a D2 lynch on him, or even a N1 vig shot; it is unlikely that he would pull this off to kill a town Mattchew as I don't think anyone can wriggle out of the subsequent backlash lynch. A 1-1 on Mattchew is stupid, especially if it could end up him (BC) lynched first, which would make it a 1 for nothing.
On Mattchew's side is the self-aware miller claim. If millers were self-aware, they would out themselves, and it would strengthen his claim. If they aren't self-aware as they usually aren't, he would be safe until someone flipped nosy neighbor, in which case his lie would be exposed and he lynched. In a big game like this, potentially worth it.
Unlikely that both are town as it would mean a lying townie. Unlikely that both are scum cause it's so sub-optimal.
I'd lynch Matt first on the basis that BC's demeanor seems more honest than Mattchew's. I mean, some guy is screaming his head off that you are a liar, and if you know that your role PM is "Nosy Neighbour" then the other guy (BC) must be an idiot or a liar. Mattchew isn't treating him like an idiot, nor is he treating him like a liar. The response is off (I base this off my experience fake claiming in Bureaucracy Mafia). If we get ... news of something otherwise, it's easy enough to switch. But even without it behavior analysis should be enough.
Dunno why you haven't thought of voting him though BC. ##Vote: Mattchew So then I made the rest of the post agreeing that it was perfectly reasonable for mattchew to be lynched. I honestly just forgot to erase the beginning of the post, which initially was meant to say that BC was full of shit (note how I started with "first of all").
I agree it doesn't look too good, you can believe that's what happened or not, whatever.
I agree with you. I stated somewhere before in my filter that scum were willing to sacrifice GoodKarma. The scumteam's willingness to part with another member after the Mattchew lynch tells me that the scumteam was not afraid to play from behind. They must have been in very good standing after Day 1. There's a reason why they went all out to kill the two best scumhunters in the thread night 1.
Well great. I will go through forumite's filter, revisit our dear friend Toad, and see what I can find. Bill Murray is a stone that cannot be read, and I don't like him at all, but I will look at his filter anyways. S&B and imallinson are two players I haven't look at at all this game, so I'll do that as well.
Also, keep in mind that if you are town, the odds of you dying are high, so right now is the time to get shit done
Well of course yes, though I don't know what exactly the purpose of this question is.
To understand why you chose to go after me, in a sea of suspicious people (i.e grush, mav, etc.).
I thought I had BKE nailed as scum and was comfortable to pursue other reads. Again, your ##vote post really stands out to me. I'll have to read your filter and decide whether it makes you scummy or not. That's all.
But I guess this explains it.
I'm missing a lot of people here. Where is everybody? Toad, this is the time you should be scared shitless of death and start posting all your reads, no?
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On September 09 2012 09:36 Toadesstern wrote: yeah I'm back but it's 2 am so I won't really read anything yet other than what's really obvious because I'm tired and will post tomorrow. Why should I be scared? The assumption that mafia was looking d1 and therefore suicided GK is complete bullshit. They suicided because they wanted to kill blues, not because they thought they could afford it. That's the worst reasoning ever. Even if they thought they could afford it they wouldn't just do it until they think it's worth it so what you've got is an action that made sense from a scumpoint of view no matter of "standing".
If they considered it a -EV move they wouldn't have done it no matter how good or bad in a spot they thought they are. If they considered it a +EV move they would have done it no matter how good or bad in a spot they thought they are.
They apparently thought they're going to get a bunch of blues when bombing into BM24. Everything else would be playing against their wincon as they'd be giving away "charity" lol
Well, it was because they wanted to kill blues AND because they thought they could afford it. If they thought they couldn't afford it, they would probably suicide GK later in the game.
It could also be that they felt forced to suicide him because he was posting ultra-scummy, and he would have been a nice delicious lynch choice for day 2.
You should be scared just like you were scared in night 1, remember your-good-bye-they-are-going-to-kill-me post? Especially now, with two vets gone.
What is a +-EV move?
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On September 09 2012 09:55 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 09 2012 09:36 Toadesstern wrote: yeah I'm back but it's 2 am so I won't really read anything yet other than what's really obvious because I'm tired and will post tomorrow. Why should I be scared? The assumption that mafia was looking d1 and therefore suicided GK is complete bullshit. They suicided because they wanted to kill blues, not because they thought they could afford it. That's the worst reasoning ever. Even if they thought they could afford it they wouldn't just do it until they think it's worth it so what you've got is an action that made sense from a scumpoint of view no matter of "standing".
If they considered it a -EV move they wouldn't have done it no matter how good or bad in a spot they thought they are. If they considered it a +EV move they would have done it no matter how good or bad in a spot they thought they are.
They apparently thought they're going to get a bunch of blues when bombing into BM24. Everything else would be playing against their wincon as they'd be giving away "charity" lol Well, it was because they wanted to kill blues AND because they thought they could afford it. If they thought they couldn't afford it, they would probably suicide GK later in the game. It could also be that they felt forced to suicide him because he was posting ultra-scummy, and he would have been a nice delicious lynch choice for day 2. You should be scared just like you were scared in night 1, remember your-good-bye-they-are-going-to-kill-me post? Especially now, with two vets gone. What is a +-EV move? There's no difference in when you use the suicide-bomber except for the fact that it is better the earlier you use it because with a lot of people alive it's more likely to kill multiple people. The KP is stable, it's no difference whether they lose him n1 or n2 or n3 except for the fact that doing it later might actually risk not being able to use his ability because he might be lynched (although quite unlikely at that point of time). There's not a single reason to use that role late except if you don't want to use it at all because you're going to lose that one guy no matter what. The night has just started I'm not going to post something about my reads right now lol. a +EV move is something from poker, something that gives you more advantages than drawbacks, while -EV is the opposite. For example if you have to pay 1$ to role a dice (6 sides) and get 10$ if you role a 6 but don't get something when rolling 1 to 5 that's +EV because you'll end up making money by doing that. If you have to pay 1$ but only get 5$ it's -EV because you lose money. Same thing goes for mafia. If they thought they could bomb away multiple people they thought it has more advantages than drawbacks. Like if they thought they'd kill BM24 + 2 blues in exchange for 1 mafia memeber that might be worth the trade no matter of position, or if they considered it likely to get BM24 + 3 blues, go figure. If they think it's worth the trade they'll do it no matter what position they're in because it always improves you position, no matter if you've got 5$ in your pocket or 100$, doing the 1$ to win 10$ thing always makes sense. If they think it's not worth the trade they wouldn't ever do it because no matter if you've got 5$ in your pocket or 100$, doing the 1$ to win 5$ will always but you at a worse position in the long run. So what we get from that is that mafia thought bombing BM24 will kill a bunch of blues. Nothing else because if it's -EV they wouldn't have done it no matter what, if they thought it's +EV they would have done it no matter what.
Oh, as in Expected Value =) Yea, that makes sense. There is also my argument for suspecting vets. I think that BKE could have been saved if someone had confirmed the question I made in the above post. If, in this kind of setup, there is a 4/5 chance of having one, and exactly one watcher, that would certainly raise the EV on us doing a voteswitch on BKE. Yet this didn't happen, no vet confirmed this. Forumite was the only active one at the time, and you and BM were awol. Don't you think that's reason enough to be suspicious that at least one veteran is scum? For this to be true, my main premise must be confirmed as well. Please answer, if you can, my ending bolded question in my first night post:
Can we, with bloodyc0bbler's 100% certainty, assume that there necessarily is one, and just one watcher?? If not 100%, how likely is it?
This is what I base my entire suspicions on.
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On September 09 2012 19:05 Forumite wrote:I don´t understand why Z-boson talks about asking vets to confirm the number of watchers. There are probably more watchers in this game but we can´t know, so using that as any basis for a lynch is a very bad idea. His post-lynch post about how vets should have confirmed the number of watchers and that there must be a scum among the vets, it's a useless post and doesn´t sit well with me. He´s trying to shift the blame on vets even though none of his suspicions have any grounds, but posts like that usually makes it easier to start a wagon later in the game because "people have been suspicious". I´d rather see Z-boson make a real case on someone. Toades, we don´t know if Palmar deliberately made sure to put vets on the scumteam. Even if Palmar put vets on the scumteam, I once lost the game for town (as town) by trying to start a wagon on Palmar, because he was leading town too well. Do you think it´s likely he´d try and boost the scumteam by adding me? Also; Bill Murray, get in here.
I asked this, because I thought that it could be likely to have just one. My reasoning was: if the odds are high that there is only one, then we shouldn't have lynched BKE. But now both you and Toad said that it can be anything, so I'll agree with you, this bit does not weigh in at all to pointing fingers. However, I already have my suspicions on Toad, and he has some on you. BM and Toad were gone during the BKE lynch, and you weren't weighing in too heavily on it. BM is playing the drunken fool, and I don't if that's so no one can accuse him properly, if that's because he doesn't want to get shot, or if it's because that's just how he is. Seems reasonable what's not there to like. Oh - cases are coming, chillax.
Also, the accusations on Hapa are worthless right now, save them for D3. Right now the town focus should be more productive to help the vigi determine who he will shoot. I think the discussion should be entirely about vets right now, as you guys have more experience with each other and with the game, and that the odds are high one of you dies tonight. I'm sure we can all agree to this, no?
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EBWOP:
Right now the town focus should be more productive to help the vigi determine who he will shoot. I think the discussion should be entirely about vets right now, as you guys have more experience with each other and with the game, and that the odds are high one of you dies tonight. I'm sure we can all agree to this, no?
I phrased myself wrong, let me correct myself. Not entirely. Vigi shooting a vet right now is dumb, and reading right now I wasn't clear with this in the above post. What I mean is: 1) Vets should post more. Our reads on vets should be made clear right now, so they can also comment and so we can know what they think of each other, given their experience and their likelihood to die. 2) However, vigi must also decide who to shoot (if at all), and a lurker with inconsistencies and a general scummy profile would fit this best, in my opinion. Shooting a high-profile person right now is risky as hell, unless there is irrefutable scum evidence, which I find unlikely at this stage.
1) and 2) in order of priority, from my opinion.
Does this make sense?
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Toad I like you so much, that I've even gone over your filter again. Here's a section just for you, since you like attention
Toad's Case on Forumite
On September 10 2012 02:36 Toadesstern wrote:I've got a little task for people, read this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330925Also make sure to read the obs-QT and especially Syllos opinion on forumite ( click me!) I know I don't usually ask people to read older games because it's a pain in the ass but this one is important.When you're done reading I want you to think about forumite. There's 4 major things that come to my mind when thinking about forumite: - He is cautious when posting
- He is only posting when he has to
- He is isn't interested in what's going on or helping town at all
- He's doing apeshit right now
It's the very same thing we had in WoF. Town-Forumite is useful, good and will do STUFF. Can you think of one important post forumite has done this game? Just one that instantly pops into your mind? I can't without having his filter opened because there's really not much that sticks out. His most important post probably was this: + Show Spoiler [click me] +On September 09 2012 06:32 Forumite wrote: Kreb (Miltonkram) (0)
Hapahauli
BroodKingEXE (16) Hapahauli slOosh imallinson
Shady Sands Hopeless1der ShiaoPi Rewok DoYouHas Maverick32x
grush57 Forumite Gravan
Toadesstern
grush57 strongandbig grush57 Toadesstern Shady Sands Z-BosoN Kreb (Miltonkram)
DoYouHas (1) Bill Murray
ShiaoPi (0)
Maverick32x
Maverick32x (0)
BroodKingEXE
Shady Sands (0)
grush57
grush57 (1) DarthPunk
Toadesstern
Shady Sands
Z-BosoN (2)
grush57 austinmcc BroodKingEXE
Not yet voted! (1) Lvdr (mkfuba07) LOL About his cautiousness:I already quoted this but just as an example for this, you'll find multiple posts like the following in his filter: Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 10:18 Forumite wrote: @Toades
After the D2-post you said you didn´t like the case on me provided by Hapless and Hapa, but you still thought I was probably scum. The only reason I remember was elimination, out of the people you stated are vets they are either dead or me, and those who died flipped town. Is that your case, "There should be scum among the vets, and now that some flipped town, the living ones are probably scum"? Because it´s a very convenient thing to say for scum, if people say there must be scum in a group, then scum kill half the group if it´s full of town, and leave it alone if there´s a scum in it so their buddy can hide better. I´m not saying that´s what happened, but it´s shaky to claim this early in a game that the last survivor of a group of must be scum event though the others flipped town.
Apart from that you said you thought I wasn´t as aggressive as usual. Partly that is because I don´t keep myself as updated as I usually do due to more stuff happening IRL than usual, but I also don´t want to make the mistake I did in DF-Mafia.
Anyway you need more reasons to you call me scum. What is it? You'll find stuff like that all over his filter. He's always making sure to have a possible retreat when posting and not committing in the slightest. He only really posts when he has to:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 07:48 Forumite wrote: =(
Toades, what do you want most, an answer to the case on me posted during the night, or my top scumreads. It´s late and I´m too tired to do both right now. Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 08:17 Forumite wrote:On September 07 2012 07:56 Toadesstern wrote:On September 07 2012 07:48 Forumite wrote: =(
Toades, what do you want most, an answer to the case on me posted during the night, or my top scumreads. It´s late and I´m too tired to do both right now. I don't consider the case on you to be good and I don't agree with it. I want to lynch you because of method or elimination. So I'd rather see you talk about targets for today. I have two scumreads right now. I had Ottox down as scum, I was wrong but it shouldn´t affect the other reads. They are both based on the time around Matts claim. The first one is Maverick for his first post in the game, it was a reaction to Matts claim and the situation around it, and he was basically trying to divert attention to everyone else, without committing to anything. The second one is Hapa for his posts during the same time. The post below sums it up well. On September 04 2012 09:32 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 09:26 Mattchew wrote:On September 04 2012 09:22 Hapahauli wrote: Yeah I know what the role does, so what about it? I'll ask a question if I don't understand something. there is no information given to the role, it is a VT that (randomly) visits people. If a tracker or watcher see me on their check it could lead to a stupid mislynch Ah thanks for clearing it up. I'm just a bit wary of D1 claims in general after having seen SnB's "self-aware miller" claim in DeathNote Mini Mafia, justified or not. On September 04 2012 09:22 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 09:17 Mattchew wrote:On September 04 2012 09:16 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well. Hold up. Why would we want people with information roles to claim? ##vote hapahauli need an honest answer. What do you consider worse: a) People not thinking while posting / reading b) People defending other people 1 hour into the game when they have no reason to do such a thing and should be happy to see as much posts from the person in question defending himself rather than stopping the discussion defending him. Howabout c) People who pick fights with people who are trying to start conversation (slOosh) for the sake of picking fights? When I read this post at first, I see Hapa buddying up with Matt and throwing suspicion on those attacking him. It didn´t feel right, Matt claiming didn´t arouse any suspicion in him. He said hi to Matt and then chided those attacking him. That´s the ones that jumped out at me when reading the thread. Yes, I should reread all the spam from yesterday, I´ll see about that tomorrow. tl;dr: Hapahauli Maverick32x That's something we rarely see when looking through foru's filter: He's talking about his read after being pressured by me and giving some minor insight on what he thinks is happening. However, why is that only happening after I call him out as mafia? I tell people he's mafia, he instantly gets in the thread and posts something like that when all the time people weren't talking about him he did nothing like that. That my dear friends is scummy as shit
As mentioned I don't think he's interested in what's happening. I can't remember a significant post foru did because there was none. He isn't even trying to help. No "shut up guys, here's what's going on: XXXX, Therefore we lynch Y". No pushing his reads to make sure the best possible lynch ends up happening. He's just completly standing by, posting some minor things if he has to but nothing else. Town-Foru would be interested in what's going on. Town-Foru would be pushing his reads. Town-Foru would be actively trying to help town and not just stand by.
It's just the same thing as WoF. He was mafia in that game and did apeshit. For some reason he never ended up being lynched although Sandroba and I called him mafia straight from d1 and sadly nothing happened. Let me assure you, Foru would be doing SOMETHING to help if he was town. He isn't. Forumite is mafia Also vote me for mayor
So, the main argument against forumite is that he has not being helping out with the thread and being useful. Of course, this by itself would be useless, but given your understanding of his meta, this is completely absurd for a town forumite. Is this correct?
I've gone over his filter, and I do agree he's not been too useful. He simply steered along with the thread all game. His only two cases were weak and he didn't go through with them at all. During the day, I'll see if his differences in meta are big enough to actually make him scum.
What's nagging at me, is that you completely shat on hopeless1's case, saying you didn't like cases against vet's in general. Also, in his case, there are some parts where he mentions some of the things you did on his case against forumite. If you were inclined to think that forumite is scum, why didn't you give emphasis to some of those parts?
Comments on Toad's answers from a while back
On September 08 2012 08:06 Toadesstern wrote:About the conclusion: I agree / agreed with the conclusion that Foru is mafia. Not sure what to make of him considering the most recent BKE posts though. 1 +2 ) Yeah. It was a "trap" if you want. I wanted to see whether they went for the easy way and just attack me with the usual "but toad is unreadable"-fear mongering or if they did not. Yeah I'd consider fear mongering a mafia trait when talking about vets, so yes I would have definitely attacked someone like Foru if he had done that. I see this as a weak and unconvincing trap... I think it's very presumptuous, but whatever. 3) I never said I don't want to target vets (I think?). I obviously didn't mess around with talking about something like that d1 because we had a confirmed mafia. What point would there be in lynching someone else. I considered the case on him weak because I didn't think what was mentioned (some specific points in the case, not everything but a bunch) was alignment indicating considering who we were talking about. I didn't get into detail with what I disagree about the case because I obviously want Foru to talk about it. Why would I want to defend him if I think he's mafia (for different reasons)? After all that's more chances for him to show poor performance, no matter if the case in question was decent or not to begin with. Ok, you said you didn't like cases against vets in general, considering we are in day on1:
I really don't like the cases on forumite (or vets in general this game) as they're incredibly far-fetched, which is obvious considering the fact that we're still on d1/n1. That being said I still (somewhat?) agree with the conclusion but I'll post shortly before deadline But it still feels a little weird, considering you were thinking that forumite is scum. Anyways, you are being fairly consistent in this regard, so whatever, I choose to believe you here.4) Again, I'm okay with targeting vets I just haven't found anything that screams mafia at me when going through forus filter, yet I've got the feeling he is + I've got the feeling the rest of the vets are looking way better. Combine those two and I'm feeling quite good about lynching him in general. It's a question of who looks the worst and explaining why we should lynch foru is just hard to do right now. When we've got other people who I'd consider to be about equally scummy right now that's just not worth the fuss. Especially if my "feeling" on foru is so vague it's really going to be a pain in the ass to explain why I want him dead right now. a)So now you have done it. I was hoping you wouldn't so I could try to destroy you later... actually, when I insisted that vets should be posting, your case on foru was more of what I had in mind.5) I'd say / I thought one of them will end up being mafia, yeah. But the most recent BKE talk is making me a little uncertain here. It's something with a lot of different things taking into consideration like meta, balance and whatever else so if people like BKE / S&B, who are good as well, are considered vets I might have to scratch that though. Given that I don't think very highly of those 2 right now I'm still trying to figure out what's the best target for today and wether or not that assumption from yesterday was correct or if I should forget it for the time being and just stick to "traditional" targets, aka the one we've got cases on. b*) So you DO think that one of forumite or BM will end up being mafia. In this case, forumite. What can you tell us about Bill Murray? Because he's so useless up to now that it's annoying. If you aren't targeting him, that means that he is consistent with his meta, yes? Tell us more. 5.5) I thought he's feeling quite alright about me before he did his most recent post, which I considered to be odd because he saw my most recent games as mafia. In PTP3 I played quite decently as mafia, he was in that game as well. In Magic I totally destroyed town on my own manipulating town. Same thing happened in the infamous Annul-game. I get that people who haven't played with me a lot don't know these things but like other vets he should know himself that I'm pretty decent as mafia. Basicly I expected him to go in this game with a bias (at least a little one) thinking I'm mafia no matter what given what the most recent games happened. I just didn't see that happening. c*) So, do you still feel strongly about S&B? I've made a case on him below, after going over his filter and finding one particularly suspicious post, tell me what you think of it/him.6) Yes as mentioned, it's quite a luxury problem we've got today: We've got a lot of good lynches. There's bound to be townies within those possible lynches and it's about who truely is the best for today. 7) Well not particually hard if you're in a 30 player game and you end up calling 100% of the vets mafia + 10 random other people. Surely you've got to be right about some :p
And one last thing: z) Who are you top scum reads at the moment, besides forumite? At the moment, I still think you stink, mainly due to your "goodbye post". But you seem very consistent, so for now, I will consider you townie.
Suspicious reads at the moment
strongandbig Mainly because of his post:
On September 09 2012 02:25 strongandbig wrote: I don't think grush is scum. As far as I can tell the case on him from toad started off as "grush is trying harder to look/be townie than he usually does, therefore he must be scum." The alternative explanation is that maybe he's just trying harder to look/be townie? I played/obsed the recent PTP game, where grush survived until almost the end - that game, trolly as it was, was the towniest grush has ever been.
I'm still not entirely sold on BKE, but I feel much better about him than about Grush.
The claim, I don't know about. It's a very easy claim for mafia to make, and we can't prove it false or true, especially since he'll be able to claim roleblocked. There's the fact that if he checked the person who was suicide bombed he should be dead, but I give zero weight to the argument that's been made by some people that his claim is too weird to be made by mafia. If the claim is fake, it's possible that he was the one who delivered the KP on BC - or one of the two if he was double stacked - and the claim is designed to be safe against trackers and real watchers.
Anyway, I don't think we should ignore the case on him just because he claimed a PR. I agree with whoever it was up above who said that if we do that, then scum can just always claim PRs and get free extra life by claiming to be roleblocked.
So I'm back to the original core of the case against him - his scummy shift in position on Mattchew before and after Palmar's post in the thread. Sure it's not 100% a sure thing, but I like that case better than the case on Grush, and so ##vote: broodkingexe
pre-edit Reading over Austin's post right above mine it looks like some decent arguments on z-boson as well - big lists, not following up on his own stuff, inconsistency, etc. Also someone to consider.
This has the most contradictions I've ever seen. 1) I don't think grush is scum. 2) I'm not entirely sold on BKE, but I feel much better about him than about Grush. 3) So I'm back to the original core of the case against him - his scummy shift in position on Mattchew before and after Palmar's post in the thread. Sure it's not 100% a sure thing, but I like that case better than the case on Grush, and so ##vote: broodkingexe. WHAT??? How does that even make sense?? This looks to me more like a scumslip. He must have felt that grush was too easy a target to go for as scum, and really wanted to go for BKE. This sheep is the most casual looking one I've seen. BLah, we should just ignore his claim, otherwise scum will always do that... sure it's not 100% but whatever, now I like that case better than the case on grush."
Just wow on that one. He doens't make a case on anyone (his hopeless post above is the first real attempt at a case, and he simply follows that guy's cases on me, just spouting out keywords and not taking a stance. This looks quite scummy to me.
EDIT: actually, now that hopeless mentions it, doesn't anyone find this kissing-ass-ery very odd between S&B and that guy? This shit is disgusting:
On September 10 2012 04:21 that guy wrote: strongandbig asked for my thoughts on Forumite/your case. I've got him down as one of my stronger town reads. I think that was a good request for to make, and I've obliged.
This needs more explanations I would think.
maverickx Well, I already had my initial case on him:
On September 06 2012 08:18 Z-BosoN wrote:Let me! let me! First of all, you post this: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 23:52 Maverick32x wrote: I voted for Matt due to the lying- but I would be curious to hear if he has a defense of some kind?? Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 00:41 Maverick32x wrote: Well, I must of skimmed past the FoS on me from Bill Murray, so I'll weigh in a bit.
The reason I was hesitant to jump on Matt was because 'bad play' doesn't equal Scum play. And our goal is to hunt Scum, not hunt bad players. That being said, lying goes a bit beyond 'bad' and starts to seem more scummy.
@Broodking- I re-read your post like 10 times and I have no idea what point you're trying to make...
These seem like soft-defending attempts on your scum buddy. You are on the same train as Graven, you figured out it wasn't a good idea to defend him and backed off. But these arguments are weak, if I want to judge someone strictly on defending a now-confirmed scum, then I wouldn't bother with anyone else other than Ox. However: You DON'T SCUMHUNT!Show nested quote +This is a huge red flag to me.... how is that ONLY something that scum does? I agree with everything else you've written.. but using those sort of generalizations really makes me suspicious. So now you say that you have a huge red flag and it really makes you suspicious. Yet, you don't make a single post later on, to anyone else. You just seemingly forget all about s&b and the huge red flag you have on him. If you were townie I'm sure you would be more focused into attacking someone you have a huge red flag on than on defending yourself. You show more interest in defending yourself than in making cases and scumhunting. And thus, your first non-casual FOS: ##FOS Maverick
And now we have this:
On September 08 2012 06:55 Maverick32x wrote:Ok, this probably will be my last post of the day, but I'm finally home and could read through BKE's filter properly. To be honest, I went into looking at BKE from a "Everyone is ganging up on him, and I don't think its deserved" perspective. I don't think anyone said this, but this is the evidence that I'm considering as the most damning... Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:21 BroodKingEXE wrote:On September 04 2012 09:16 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well. Hold up. Why would we want people with information roles to claim? Its basically a miller role that the town knows about why not? Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 12:13 BroodKingEXE wrote: Actually, Mattchew why should they claim now? Can't they just wait till its pointed out? Well okay, I know THIS has been brought up... but I just want to reiterate that this 'soft defending' makes me suspicious... not 100% scum.. just suspicious. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:52 BroodKingEXE wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Toadesstern wrote:--snipped-- On September 04 2012 09:35 BroodKingEXE wrote: @Toad Im still confused about the vote on slOosh. You didn't agree with him for starting a useless discussion and that's grounds for keeping your vote on him? There never was a vote on him to begin with lol An honorary vote, and even so you never got anything out of it despite the six or so posts metioning him. Seemed more like some sort of a push, against slo0sh, than a minor disagreement. This is just the last post on his slight attack on Toad. Which is significant to me beecaaauusse: Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 04:41 BroodKingEXE wrote:On September 06 2012 03:57 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 06 2012 03:49 Z-BosoN wrote: @goodkarma Just because he is up on my suspicion bar does not mean that he is scum. He could very well be a bad townie. If he is, the only motivation he has for defending matt and attacking toad is that he actually thinks that toad is more suspicious than matt, and if so, he's doing a shitty job at explaining himself. Also, him being obnoxious doesn't contribute to his defense. At least I am not that retarded to attack someone on the ground of their first post that was clearly a joke. I already explained my motivation two post ago. If you need some help understanding it you can ask for it nicely You dont joke about scum reads. You're scum, because you are trying to derail a lynch and not trying to bring up another canidate. Real townie would create a case and present a new option, but scum dont want to give away to much and wont do that. They'll try to plug an easy lurker after a derail. I really see this as putting the responsibility on someone else to make claims and to avoid doing it himself.... He just lights touched on a couple people, but clearly expected town to start lynching themselves. So yea, I'm good with this lynch....AND the one thing I'm concerned about is that we are tunneling. And that concerns me.... still worried about the lurkers!!
This ending right there is ridiculous. He's a lurker, a bad one, and his confirmation on BKE is quite weak. I can see him being just a very bad town, but I still think he's scum.
Top vigi shots at the moment I mentioned I'm all for a "general lurker with some scumminess on him". I still think that. The top scum shots, right now, for me would be, in order of preference:
Maverickx - Fits the bill perfectly. ShiaoPi - I agree with hapa on him grush07 - He's useless, doesn't help, and unlike BM, is not a vet, and thus should die. Many people here think he's townie. If he is, well, he's sure not acting like it. mkfuba - Lvdr and mkfuba, in a almost 80-page game, have two useless posts. If they are scum, we cannot find out, and it would be stupid to waste a watch or a track on him. Rewok + Gravan They are low on this list because I think they might be town. I actually only put this here because some people (aka imallinson) seem to think not.
Will probably make another post before nightfall. Let me know if you guys heavily disagree with anything here.
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In the same post, he has a contradiction:
1) I don't think grush is scum. grush isn't scum. 2) I'm not entirely sold on BKE, but I feel much better about him than about Grush. he think grush isn't scum, but BKE is even less scummier, because he feels better about BKE than on grush. 3) So I'm back to the original core of the case against him - his scummy shift in position on Mattchew before and after Palmar's post in the thread. Sure it's not 100% a sure thing, but I like that case better than the case on Grush, and so ##vote: broodkingexe. And now BKE is scummier than grush? Didn't he feel much better about BKE?
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HOW NOT?? Unless "feeling better about BKE" = I want him dead, I don't see how there is no contradiction...
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Feeling better about lynching someone =/= feeling better about someone. But given the context, I guess you could assume that. Hoo boy someone's gonna have a field day with this one. I retract this argument, but the point regarding him just being swayed into reads other than making them stands.
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On September 10 2012 05:41 imallinson wrote: @Z-Boson I might just be missing it but I can't see toad shitting on hopeless' case in his filter.
He dismissed it saying he didn't like his case against forumit (and cases against vets in genera)l, but that he agreed with the conclusion. i.e. "your case sucks, but I also think forumite is scum"
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On September 10 2012 05:53 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 05:47 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 10 2012 05:41 imallinson wrote: @Z-Boson I might just be missing it but I can't see toad shitting on hopeless' case in his filter. He dismissed it saying he didn't like his case against forumit (and cases against vets in genera)l, but that he agreed with the conclusion. i.e. "your case sucks, but I also think forumite is scum" I don't see why that makes him scummy. Hopeless' case + Show Spoiler +On September 04 2012 13:18 Hopeless1der wrote:Supposing we table the nosy-neighbor discussion(which appears to still be going strong), I would like to point out my take on Forumite: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. "We're lynching you anyway" Not cool. First, I disagree with the notion that revealing yourself as a nosy neighbor is scummy. Oh wait, Forumite didn't really say that. He didn't really say much of anything here if you ask me, but back to the point of "lynching you anyways", I don't like the blanket statements from Forumite. Here's another one: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:46 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:42 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 04 2012 09:27 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:07 BlackMamba24 wrote: I mean that blues should do what they feel is best with their own judgment and ignore any direction from the "town" Sorry, I should have been more specific. I wondered about this phrase: On September 04 2012 07:55 BlackMamba24 wrote: Never lynch someone just because they wouldn't claim to the town leader or whatever, that's asinine, asiten, asieleven, asitwelve, etc. What is there to explain? There's a difference between lynching someone for not backing themselves up after they're caught lying or whatever and lynching someone because they don't trust the town circle. It sounded weird. It´s common for the voteleader to be lynched unless he claims (convincingly). As an aside, "It sounded weird" is not a phrase I like to see. Immediately makes me suspicious. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:55 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:43 Mattchew wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. Because there is no town benefit to me hiding this information. and for all everyone knows I could be a blue role trying to avoid being incorrectly tracked as well if I get tracked to a dead person atleast there will be something to think about before mislynching me Lying to town as a blue is a bad idea. If you fakeclaim nosy neighbor to fool scum, then you risk getting lynched by town. You are still going to draw a few trackers during the first few nights, just to make sure that you are really visiting people at random with no effect, so because of this you might actually be hurting town by distracting blues. Why are trackers going to be inclined to 'verify' a nosy neighbor claim? Even if Mattchew is scum, he just needs to do something and his claim is still up in the air. Why is Forumite trying to manipulate our blues? There's also the point about lying as a blue. How about lying in general to the town? There isn't any value in this statement. Town is supposedly harmed because our Trackers have to make sure Mattchew is really visiting random people with no effect. And then they get a confirmed townie out of the exchange. Wait, how does that hurt us again?
Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:00 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Let me rephrase: What is your problem with Toades play in this game? You were reacting very strongly to a random vote coming right at the beginning of the game. Dat Over-reaction: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:42 slOosh wrote: Cool ... you wanna talk about something else? Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? And then of course slo0sh himself points out: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:17 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 10:00 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Let me rephrase: What is your problem with Toades play in this game? You were reacting very strongly to a random vote coming right at the beginning of the game. I reacted strongly because there was no grounds for the vote / read. I still have a problem with the fact that he keeps emphasizing the uselessness of the post (it isn't, because as clearly seen that people can miss setup information), which I take as soft discrediting of my posts in general. I'm not claiming my opening post is super useful, but to call it useless is unwarranted. That said I can see this coming from a town perspective, so my problem with his play thus far is a matter of taste rather than alignment. On September 04 2012 10:04 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Um... this: " My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not" You are saying that he tries to discredit you ---> you think he tried to discredit you ---> if he tried to discredit you, you are saying he wanted to do this and is being deliberately disruptive. Why not just straight answer the question without adding another one? There is a difference in someone discrediting me and someone being deliberately disruptive. Forumite phrased the question in a way that seemingly put words in my mouth as I said the former but not the latter (or never intended to so I checked with my question). Specifically the last paragraph is what I want noted. Then again, slo0sh addressed the 'strong reaction' in the first part of that quote, but I don't think slo0sh reacted 'strongly' at all. Forumite is just stirring the pot here and not really being helpful to me. He looks like he's pushing discussion, but slo0sh was taking care of that all on his own. We didn't need Forumite to prompt him.
I see a lot of roundabout advice from Forumite on why claiming self-aware miller is terrible and how our blues are screwed for it. But nowhere does he tell us that Mattchew is scummy, just that he'll still be suspicious no matter what. His prodding at slo0sh dead-ended pretty quickly and he's ducked out of the thread after making this post: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:01 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 10:00 Z-BosoN wrote: Hello folks ^^ I would appreciate it if someone could clear some things up, since I've never played in this setup yet. Right now I've noticed this new mechanic: visiting someone. A nosy neighbor will randomly visit someone. This will be caught up by the town watcher and/or tracker. Now what I don't understand: if a medic saves someone, or if a roleblocker blocks some, or if a Suicide Bomber plants a bomb somewhere, or if a goon tks someone, will they also "visit" this person? Yes, all nightactions, including mafia nightkills, can be detected by watchers and trackers. I´ve never seen you before. Have you been on TL-mafia long? What do you think about the game so far? I don't think his posts have contributed anything to getting scum lynched, and I think it is because Forumite is scum. ##Vote: Forumite+ Show Spoiler +Pregame answer for Rewok, I got curious when going through Forumite's filter: On September 03 2012 01:49 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 00:51 Rewok wrote: There's a word for arguing for arguments sake but I can't remember it. Anybody want to help me out? No there isn't! + Show Spoiler + Eristic is kind of shitty it's based on some vauge stuff about Forumite's posting around the pre Palmar post Mattchew situation. Sure Forumite wasn't playing to his town meta then but it was still very early game so that wasn't enough to go on with so little time played.
And where did I say this made him scummy? Did you read my post? I actually said he was consistent in this regard. I was trying to peg him down later in case he didn't make a proper case. I said he stinks because of his good-bye post, which I thought suspicious.
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On September 10 2012 06:06 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 05:12 Z-BosoN wrote: [...]
What's nagging at me, is that you completely shat on hopeless1's case, saying you didn't like cases against vet's in general. Also, in his case, there are some parts where he mentions some of the things you did on his case against forumite. If you were inclined to think that forumite is scum, why didn't you give emphasis to some of those parts?
[...]
I did not completly shat on hopeless1's case saying I didn't like cases against vet's in general. I said I don't like it that much because it's far-fetched. What I meant with that is that I see some points on foru and I agree with them but I also got some things I completly disagree with in his case as I do not think everything he pointed out is a mafiatrait or scummy at all. Also about the I don't like cases against vet's in general-phrase as at least 5 people have asked about that by now and it seems no matter how often you guys ask about there's always someone who's still misunderstanding what I said back than. What I meant was I don't like the cases we've got on foru (or vets in general) so far, saying the cases on vets we've got are not good as they're far-fetched. I never said or intended it to sound like I don't like cases against vets. I think I should have made that misunderstanding clear by now but apparently people come back to that all the time and ask me about it... About other Mafiareads:Not much right now. We've already got 2 flipped mafias and there're not going to be 191518696 more mafias in this game. I'm still standing by my point that either Grush or Shady has to be mafia. They're both giving me a hard time and everytime I want to get something going on Grush, Shady gets in the thread saying something that just screams "LYNCH ME" and vice verca. So I'm kind of having a hard time on those two. I'm still suspicious of S&B but I don't really want to go into details about him for a reason.
Oh, I forgot about shady. I have one hell of a suspicion on him, mostly meta-based. His meta is totally balls-out off from his townie death note and townie XXIV. Since he's mostly lurking and not being useful with his reads, I would add him somewhere between mav and Shiaopi.
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Also, you forgot this part, which I consider very important:
".... What can you tell us about Bill Murray? Because he's so useless up to now that it's annoying. If you aren't targeting him, that means that he is consistent with his meta, yes? Tell us more."
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On September 10 2012 06:16 Toadesstern wrote:I think I've seen Shady twice in newbie games and the general idea about his town meta seems to be something along the lines of "not posting at all, lurking not contributing" so I wouldn't say his play is off meta-based at all. Yeah it's hearsay because I haven't played with him myself but that's not a reason to lynch him. If it is you would have to say BM is mafia as well while we both seem to agree that BM looks somewhat townish. Shady looks bad because of posts that just scream "LYNCH ME" like those: Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 01:36 Shady Sands wrote:On September 09 2012 01:35 Toadesstern wrote:On September 09 2012 01:32 DarthPunk wrote:On September 09 2012 01:27 Toadesstern wrote:On September 09 2012 01:21 DarthPunk wrote:On September 09 2012 01:15 Toadesstern wrote: I'm thinking about this claim and I've got to say I don't like lynching BKE right now although I said otherwise an hour ago before thinking this trough.
It just really doesn't make sense right now. The only thing I dislike about BKE's claim is that he claims BM24 was suicide bombed and not BC because I consider BC more likely to be the target, but BM24 being the target isn't out of the ordinary that much.
On top of that with Palmars statement it really could be he's telling the truth and if something like: Suicide vs BM24 1KP vs BC 1KP vs other vet (myself, maybe Foru or whoever else) or someone being really active (not going to call names here for obvious reasons) who got protected isn't that unlikely at all.
The thing about late switches is they almost always turn out bad because they're not thought through and mafia has an easy time to manipulate. I'm pretty sure that either Shady or Grush is mafia right now and I could see both flipping red (though not both), so we could go for either of those two but as mentioned, those things really go wrong all the time... It Is also bad to potentially mislynch a watcher. I would rather mislynch a VT then a Watcher. If that is the worst consequence from mafia manipulation. So be it. Of course it's bad to lynch a watcher but we can't consider that a reason to not lynch him and have to take both lynching a VT and a Watcher as equally bad. If we don't we're giving mafia the easiest time ever to just get in here "LOL I'm a mad hatter" and everyone insta unvotes because of something that can't be proven at all. That being said I still dislike the BKE lynch right now and would prefere a grush lynch. Hmm I hadn't thought of that. In my last game The scummiest player claimed vig after a vig shot. He was so scummy no one believed him and he was lynched, In the obs QT Marv said that lynching blue claims was something newbies loved to do. I understand your point about all scum making easy claims. But this wagon smells. Grush smells. I skimmed through the thread and alarm bells started blaring in my head. well yeah I agree. I really don't like the situation we're in right now. Lynching BKE sounds really stupid right now and I don't like Grush's attitude at all. I'm going to vote for Grush. I've still got about an hour left before I have to go so let's see what we can do and whether or not it's possible. ##vote Grush Alright, let's get this wagon going. ##Vote Grush
LOL. His meta is exactly this... he makes posts that scream "lynch me!" all the time, and he posts a LOT. Thing is, it's mostly his reads, his him asking everybody random questions, his generally quietness that feels weird. I've never seen him as scum so, dunno =/
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Here it goes... I don't think the odds of me dying this night are that high, but I don't think they are null. Here's what I think is important. Hapahauli First off, I have a town read on Hapa. I was initially a bit suspicious of him when he started pointing fingers at me along with austin. That felt unnecessary at the time, besides being a little weird. He starts of by defending me, and suddenly he's asking me questions. It didn't feel natural for someone who mentioned he had a town read on me. Then, after agreeing that my "basing yourself on GK" arguments were stupid, he actually mentioned them again later on, once he said he "lifted his town-read on me", even though they were reasonable and he had actually agreed with them. This made me think he was scum that took the first chance he got to go after me. Also, his Rewok -> Shiaopi switch earlier this night seemed like a "look at me, I'm an undecisive townie", and at that time I was almost certain he was scum, but I didn't bring it up because But then... he made it a point to mention I was town once again. This would seem rather stupid and unnecessary as scum, as for a scum, austin's ticket to condemning me would seem perfect for him. This strongly makes me think he is townie. Either that, or for some reason, he thought it would seem too unnatural for him to switch like that, but I don't think that is scum rationale and given how much he's posting I will give him the benefit of the doubt. So, at least until the endgame, if he doesn't die without saves, consider him townie. In the unlikely scenario that I die and he doesn't, however (again, without considering saves and roleblocks and whatnot), be very aware that him unnecessarily saying I'm town would be perfect to kill me and give him town points. Otherwise, he's town until proven guilty.
Toadsstern: I don't like his good-bye post. I don't like his "i'm not saying anything on S&B yet for a reason. However, if his tell on forumite proves itself true, it's almost certain he's town. " The best bus in TL history" involved him and VE going like maddogs after eachother, OMGUSing themselves to death. This seems way too different, so I don't think they both can be scum. I don't think they both can be townie as well. The amount of certainty in which he displays towards forumite is too high for a townie, unless this townie is absolutely certain of what he's saying, especially on something based on meta (which I think is the case). Should he live until the end, however, be thrice as suspicious.
Lurkers: One of the lurkers is almost certainly scum. Vigi not wasting his shot N1 is VERY weird, considering what toad said with the +EV and (because should a vigi die, a shot would be wasted). And who was absent during this game?? LVDR/MKFUBA. I think it's very important you guys consider this, as, if you remember, mafia is missing 2 kp. 2 medic's saves is UNLIKELY as hell, so a very reasonable explanation is that LVDR/FUBA IS SCUM VIGI AND DIDN'T SHOOT ON N1. Consider him a top lynch choice going into D3. (if it's possible that someone else could have given the vigi shot in his stead, then, ignore this, because I honestly don't know).
I don't know what to say about the rest. S&B seems suspicious as hell. Shady Sands seems suspicious as hell. But given how many more players there are that are non-contributive and useless, I don't think this is a strong scumtell. I don't like grush. I don't like Bill Murray. And I cant make a case on these because they are useless and random in their posting.
That's about it, hope I don't die, and hope this is helpful.
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Omg, he was such an obvious target, I even hinted him here:
Also, keep in mind that if you are town, the odds of you dying are high, so right now is the time to get shit done
Cmon medic/jk.... I honestly hope you didn't save a vet. Mafia is still missing one kp. They are either saving their vigi shot, or the shot got blocked tonight...
Hapa I would have gone with you being town 98% had we both lived... shit! GG
@austin: I hope you realize the error of your ways once I come up as townie... you are too biased when making reads man!
Let's not go too fast on forumite. Mafia is still missing a shot. Also, no vets died, this strikes me as very weird.
Let me think about this.
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Yea I was assuming there was a mafia vig. I forgot that not all of the roles are necessarily present =/
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On September 10 2012 07:58 Forumite wrote: I get the feeling that scum decided on those nightkills very close to the deadline, since Hapa and austinmcc dropped suspicions on BM, Toades and me right before dying.
About Toades case on me, I´ve been busy and haven´t been putting much effort into the game. Yes, I´m more cautious than my usual meta, which unfortunately puts me closer to how I behaved in Wheel of Fortune Mafia, my scumteam kept a low profile while town lynched eachother, this tactic worked well in that game. There´s not much more to say except that I have some serious rereading to do.
What? BS!! Hapa and I agreed early in the night that at least one vet is scum. It's not like all of a sudden some real dirt came from them just before the deadline... yea you definitely have some reading to do
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On September 10 2012 07:44 Bill Murray wrote: I actually like Shady Sand's Hapahauli vote. If Hapahauli takes off, I will definitely join. I also found something from Sloosh that makes me not really care about him as much.
I'm sure you like playing games. Which one is your favorite?
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On September 10 2012 07:42 Bill Murray wrote:I BROUGHT HIM UP AS A JOKE Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 07:06 Bill Murray wrote: Austinmcc, what is your read on the Ottoxlol situation? His theories are over the top, right? What does that show about his alignment? Why? then i filtered him, and i was like, holy fuck this guy has 3 wall posts and is the most obvious blue I HAVE EVER SEEN but i didnt want to give it away, so i decided to engage him in questioning, as seen above Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 07:21 Bill Murray wrote:On September 06 2012 07:18 austinmcc wrote:On September 06 2012 07:06 Bill Murray wrote: Austinmcc, what is your read on the Ottoxlol situation? His theories are over the top, right? What does that show about his alignment? Why? Looking through his profile, I see his only other game was LIII. So he's at least played, although not with me. But he knows that some of the people in this game played that game, he played with them, he knows they are competent individuals with functioning brains. It's the first time I've ever seen someone cling to something absolutely wrong in this manner. I have posted paranoid rants in two games, stuck by them for a while as possibilities, gotten upset if people wouldn't consider them as possibilities, but I didn't get like this. Right now (and if Matt flips scum I will be more certain of the read) I can't help but read the whole thing like this: - Matt got caught
- Ottoxlol tried to save him, without realizing how bad an idea it was
- Ottoxlol shortly realized how bad an idea it was
- A decent scum player told him right after he got caught looking very odd that he couldn't back off his defense, because then he'd look even scummier
- So he went full bore nuts, and that's why he won't listen to anyone or anything
It doesn't feel like he's just obtuse. At some point he'd get the message. It feels like he's clinging to this. Do me a favor, and go read Gravan's filter as if he were a scum idiot and then i encourage him to scumhunt, which he does. It was awesome. My questioning lead to him posting a little more, which may have bought him another cycle. IDK. Regardless, notice how I'm trying to get him to engage me in more scumhunting? I have no suspicion of him at all, not only do I figure he's town, I know he's blue/red, and I'm leaning blue at this point. He's not acting as per his townie meta, and he looks blue as shit versus being scum. He could be scum here, but that's why I'm questioning him at all, really, to see how he will react. Well, he reacted well, so I, as above, asked him about Gravan Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:34 Bill Murray wrote:On September 06 2012 08:32 austinmcc wrote:On September 06 2012 08:27 Bill Murray wrote: ohhhh i get the bm/bm/bc thing now yeah we're the 3 most obvious pro-town... regardless of alignment possibly toad or even hapahauli... austinmcc is very pro-town as well, but i'd like to see more one liners from him On September 06 2012 08:25 Bill Murray wrote: If Gravan gets vigged (lord willing) and flips scum, do you see any conclusions we can draw from it? Yes, that the scum team is trolling, because that would mean that they've all dun goofed hard. If matt claimed nosy neighbor AND ottoxlol defended him like he did AND gravan didn't check QT or nobody put something in QT saying "EVERYONE SHUT UP AND VOTE MATT," then I have a hard time believing there's a ... scum leader? I assume some of the players in this game have played real nice scum games, where they sort of orchestrated everyone's moves. If Ottoxlol and Gravan are both scum, then I have a difficult time believing that scum has such a player. At the very least that guy should be running damage control after Matt and ottoxlol make themselves obvious. if their "leader" is someone who is really into policy like Forumite or Toad then I could see a breakdown like this Without an overseer, you cannot see Dark Templar. Capiche? Notice how I'm FoS the "top scum" who is likely Forumite I don't think it's Toad - pretty sure he's town as per meta by now... he's just such a good player, that I'm wary of him. Back on track, and off tangent, the bolded line above is me saying "hey, you're blue, but don't worry about me... im not scum"
Well, well, you just might have done something useful after all. If you can answer me well enough, you are as good as cleared in my books.
You also forgot to add this:
On September 06 2012 07:35 Bill Murray wrote: Forumite's defense is really good. He's off my scumlist.
I just filtered mav. TBH, maverick is looking more like town. i mean he's openly defending himself vs me and Dr.H Seems really inactive, however, so I'm not calling off a potential vig shot there... *looks at austin* Though, I'd still rather someone shoot Gravan, at this point.
But this was just a lucky guess, you couldn't have known he was vig, but that he was blue, amirite?.
There are two options here: 1) You actually knew he was a blue 2) You randomly put crumbs everywhere so you could "clear yourself" once a blue popped up.
Indeed, your posting towards him seems to suggest that you knew he was a blue. Question 1) You mentioned his 3 wall posts, etc. Tell me exactly why you think that made him not-town. Why wouldn't a town post like him? Be very clear here. Question 2) You made this post AFTER the ones you referenced:
On September 06 2012 13:04 Bill Murray wrote: weird interaction between kobe and austin there, too, and coupled with him slipping in his wording? potential scumteam Why were you shedding suspicion on a blue? I don't conceive this as a joke. Question 3) You thought he was blue and suggested for him to not worry about you. Why did you make this post:
On September 09 2012 22:04 Bill Murray wrote: DOC SWITCH TO ME. Is this another random crumb in case the actual doctor died? Explain this post.
I hope you can answer well!
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On September 10 2012 09:01 Toadesstern wrote:This game is bullshit. How do you go from **vote foru to Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 08:51 Bill Murray wrote: Forumite's appeal to me to unvote him (though implied) shall be heard at this time. I will be honoring my word as a man, and voting Shady Sands. Z-BosoN is town, as is Toad, and possibly Forumite. This I have decreed. I have decreed that I will hence forth be known as Toad, the Confused because this is giving me headaches. Why can't vigs just claim 5secs prior to deadline (that is if what Grush posted is truely the case) like they are supposed to do... Would make things way easier to figure out, especially in a game without notifications. See you tomorrow... need to reread A LOT He probably went through his own filter and found that he had said something like: Henceforth I will make town vote on Shady Sands or myself. Not trolling.
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Basically he's screaming out loud he knows austin is blue. Given how he was addressing austin, and the crumbs, it sounds reasonable, and is confirmed with this quote:
Seems really inactive, however, so I'm not calling off a potential vig shot there... *looks at austin*
Which is made AFTER night 1. However, his "crumbs", were made BEFORE night one, as were his other posts. If he actually suspected austin being blue, as mafia, it would be extremely advantageous to outright kill austin. He would be catching a blue in day one. I don't believe mafia would have the balls to note this and still not kill austin.
My only concern is the possibility of him just leaving crumbs everywhere with his random comments. If you note, there's a lot of stuff you basically can't understand.
I'm inclined to believe BM, however, because from his filter he clearly treated austin differently, something in which he did not do with anybody else. My questions are only to avoid this "random crumbing" theory I have, because otherwise that should be like a 95% clear.
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Wait, if you shoot a vigilante, does his kills still go through?
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Because he would have killed austin N1!!!!! Confirmed blue role >>>>> vet townie
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BM, I do not yet think you are town, please answer my questions as you have a couple of posts in there that don't make sense according to your calims and need clearing up.
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Also, someone please answer: if someone shoots vigi, does the kill still go through???
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On September 10 2012 10:11 Forumite wrote:@DoYouHasShow nested quote +On September 04 2012 08:22 DoYouHas wrote: slOosh, my vote is neither stupid nor a throwaway. I have a friend who I consider a better player than me who has told me that getting BM out of the game quickly is always a good thing. It is meta as hell but it isn't stupid.
Toad's aggression towards you is completely null. You seem to be playing into your town meta so far, but I really won't know for sure until your first/second case. Who is this friend who told you to always kill Bill murray? Yes, an old post but I don´t think it was answered.
DoYouHas is no more. Mementoss replaced him. Would be mighty nice of him to show his face.
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I don't get why there is like 5 people saying I look suspicious and voting for me. Make a fucking case. Doesn't it seem odd for anyone how easy people are swaying towards me? Were at this stage of the game where we are not in a comfortable position anymore to go ahead throwing votes around without reason.
S&B, is it so difficult to think a little bit? Sigh... I was hoping I could get an answer from him, but it seems I have enough. Here it goes:
First of all, BM didn't answer my questions, because since you guys are so blind, he threw suspicion towards austin AFTER he "blue claimed him"!! This is surely not the attitude of someone who was "absolutely sure he saw a blue". Observe, this post came after his so called "crumbs":
On September 06 2012 13:04 Bill Murray wrote: weird interaction between kobe and austin there, too, and coupled with him slipping in his wording? potential scumteam
I asked him about this to see what kind of shit answer he would give, but alas, there is none. Why? Because he didn't feel100% sure austin was blue, despite saying so.
He didn't use his main "evidence" as "evidence"
Take one look at his "I'm cleared" post:
On September 10 2012 07:42 Bill Murray wrote:I BROUGHT HIM UP AS A JOKE Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 07:06 Bill Murray wrote: Austinmcc, what is your read on the Ottoxlol situation? His theories are over the top, right? What does that show about his alignment? Why? then i filtered him, and i was like, holy fuck this guy has 3 wall posts and is the most obvious blue I HAVE EVER SEEN but i didnt want to give it away, so i decided to engage him in questioning, as seen above Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 07:21 Bill Murray wrote:On September 06 2012 07:18 austinmcc wrote:On September 06 2012 07:06 Bill Murray wrote: Austinmcc, what is your read on the Ottoxlol situation? His theories are over the top, right? What does that show about his alignment? Why? Looking through his profile, I see his only other game was LIII. So he's at least played, although not with me. But he knows that some of the people in this game played that game, he played with them, he knows they are competent individuals with functioning brains. It's the first time I've ever seen someone cling to something absolutely wrong in this manner. I have posted paranoid rants in two games, stuck by them for a while as possibilities, gotten upset if people wouldn't consider them as possibilities, but I didn't get like this. Right now (and if Matt flips scum I will be more certain of the read) I can't help but read the whole thing like this: - Matt got caught
- Ottoxlol tried to save him, without realizing how bad an idea it was
- Ottoxlol shortly realized how bad an idea it was
- A decent scum player told him right after he got caught looking very odd that he couldn't back off his defense, because then he'd look even scummier
- So he went full bore nuts, and that's why he won't listen to anyone or anything
It doesn't feel like he's just obtuse. At some point he'd get the message. It feels like he's clinging to this. Do me a favor, and go read Gravan's filter as if he were a scum idiot and then i encourage him to scumhunt, which he does. It was awesome. My questioning lead to him posting a little more, which may have bought him another cycle. IDK. Regardless, notice how I'm trying to get him to engage me in more scumhunting? I have no suspicion of him at all, not only do I figure he's town, I know he's blue/red, and I'm leaning blue at this point. He's not acting as per his townie meta, and he looks blue as shit versus being scum. He could be scum here, but that's why I'm questioning him at all, really, to see how he will react. Well, he reacted well, so I, as above, asked him about Gravan Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:34 Bill Murray wrote:On September 06 2012 08:32 austinmcc wrote:On September 06 2012 08:27 Bill Murray wrote: ohhhh i get the bm/bm/bc thing now yeah we're the 3 most obvious pro-town... regardless of alignment possibly toad or even hapahauli... austinmcc is very pro-town as well, but i'd like to see more one liners from him On September 06 2012 08:25 Bill Murray wrote: If Gravan gets vigged (lord willing) and flips scum, do you see any conclusions we can draw from it? Yes, that the scum team is trolling, because that would mean that they've all dun goofed hard. If matt claimed nosy neighbor AND ottoxlol defended him like he did AND gravan didn't check QT or nobody put something in QT saying "EVERYONE SHUT UP AND VOTE MATT," then I have a hard time believing there's a ... scum leader? I assume some of the players in this game have played real nice scum games, where they sort of orchestrated everyone's moves. If Ottoxlol and Gravan are both scum, then I have a difficult time believing that scum has such a player. At the very least that guy should be running damage control after Matt and ottoxlol make themselves obvious. if their "leader" is someone who is really into policy like Forumite or Toad then I could see a breakdown like this Without an overseer, you cannot see Dark Templar. Capiche? Notice how I'm FoS the "top scum" who is likely Forumite I don't think it's Toad - pretty sure he's town as per meta by now... he's just such a good player, that I'm wary of him. Back on track, and off tangent, the bolded line above is me saying "hey, you're blue, but don't worry about me... im not scum"
Now, why didn't he include this post:
On September 06 2012 07:35 Bill Murray wrote: Forumite's defense is really good. He's off my scumlist.
I just filtered mav. TBH, maverick is looking more like town. i mean he's openly defending himself vs me and Dr.H Seems really inactive, however, so I'm not calling off a potential vig shot there... *looks at austin* Though, I'd still rather someone shoot Gravan, at this point.
To clear him? It's the most compelling piece of evidence he has! ,so why not?? because it happened AFTER n1, look at the time. It's evident that a post-n1 confirmation is useless. I include this in my questions, and again, he doesn't answer. Oh wait, better yet, he does:
On September 10 2012 21:25 Bill Murray wrote: FURTHERMORE, AS I HAVE DEMONSTRATED, I CALLED AUSTIN BEING A VIG BEFORE HE DIED BEFORE N1 AND HE DIDNT DIE N1 AND I WOULD HAVE DEMANDED AT LEAST 1 KILL OUT OF THE SCUM KILLS AND HE WAS MY ONLY BLUE READ SO.
He LIES saying that it was before N1, which is WRONG, just look at the date!! Why would a townie BM lie about this?
This is his strongest piece of evidence that he suspected austin, and he didn't use it before. Now, he is trying to use it to tell us all that he knew all along austin was vig.
Anyways, there is one more thing to consider here. When I noticed this, I didn't know that if you killed a vigi, the shot still went through. I don't find it likely that austin chose not to kill anyone, so I'll assume he got roleblocked. He didn't bother shooting ottox and I'm sure he wouldn't bother shooting someone like mav/shiaopi. If so, then who could have possibly known austin was blue? Better yet - a vig? Yes, BM.
I do not doubt he thought austin was blue. I think he realized he was vig after N1, where it was too late to kill austin, and is now using it to clear himself up. Want a 100% scum tag on him? Find crumbs that austin was vigi. If he was town, he surely would have shared them with us. (I tried finding some, but failed to do so, maybe more attentive players can try).
Even if you find nothing, the fact that he lied about saying he "confirmed" it before N1, AND the fact that he didn't use this, the most strongest evidence in his stack, is compelling. Rephrasing to make it crystal clear, as I know some of you don't like to read: He didn't use the single most compelling evidence that he knew austin was blue. He then said it happened before N1. If he honestly thought it happened before N1, why didn't he use it?
One more thing, he disappeared during the BKE lynch. Then, he claims it was a dumb lynch, etc. This is ridiculous, if he genuinely thought it ridiculous he would have appeared and tried to save him. If he was town, of course.
Not to mention his disruptive play, how he never keeps his vote on someone, and his general uselessness in giving reads.
Bill Murray is SCUM and needs to die!
##Vote Bill Murray
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On September 11 2012 11:26 Maverick32x wrote: holy.
shit.
You just totally exploded. What's the matter, didn't expect I'd find your scum buddy?
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I'm definitely up for a maverick lynch. You guys didn't respond at all to my case on him... refreshing your memories: + Show Spoiler [case] +Well, I already had my initial case on him: On September 06 2012 08:18 Z-BosoN wrote:Let me! let me! First of all, you post this: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 23:52 Maverick32x wrote: I voted for Matt due to the lying- but I would be curious to hear if he has a defense of some kind?? Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 00:41 Maverick32x wrote: Well, I must of skimmed past the FoS on me from Bill Murray, so I'll weigh in a bit.
The reason I was hesitant to jump on Matt was because 'bad play' doesn't equal Scum play. And our goal is to hunt Scum, not hunt bad players. That being said, lying goes a bit beyond 'bad' and starts to seem more scummy.
@Broodking- I re-read your post like 10 times and I have no idea what point you're trying to make...
These seem like soft-defending attempts on your scum buddy. You are on the same train as Graven, you figured out it wasn't a good idea to defend him and backed off. But these arguments are weak, if I want to judge someone strictly on defending a now-confirmed scum, then I wouldn't bother with anyone else other than Ox. However: You DON'T SCUMHUNT!Show nested quote +This is a huge red flag to me.... how is that ONLY something that scum does? I agree with everything else you've written.. but using those sort of generalizations really makes me suspicious. So now you say that you have a huge red flag and it really makes you suspicious. Yet, you don't make a single post later on, to anyone else. You just seemingly forget all about s&b and the huge red flag you have on him. If you were townie I'm sure you would be more focused into attacking someone you have a huge red flag on than on defending yourself. You show more interest in defending yourself than in making cases and scumhunting. And thus, your first non-casual FOS: ##FOS Maverick And now we have this: On September 08 2012 06:55 Maverick32x wrote:Ok, this probably will be my last post of the day, but I'm finally home and could read through BKE's filter properly. To be honest, I went into looking at BKE from a "Everyone is ganging up on him, and I don't think its deserved" perspective. I don't think anyone said this, but this is the evidence that I'm considering as the most damning... Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:21 BroodKingEXE wrote:On September 04 2012 09:16 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well. Hold up. Why would we want people with information roles to claim? Its basically a miller role that the town knows about why not? Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 12:13 BroodKingEXE wrote: Actually, Mattchew why should they claim now? Can't they just wait till its pointed out? Well okay, I know THIS has been brought up... but I just want to reiterate that this 'soft defending' makes me suspicious... not 100% scum.. just suspicious. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:52 BroodKingEXE wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Toadesstern wrote:--snipped-- On September 04 2012 09:35 BroodKingEXE wrote: @Toad Im still confused about the vote on slOosh. You didn't agree with him for starting a useless discussion and that's grounds for keeping your vote on him? There never was a vote on him to begin with lol An honorary vote, and even so you never got anything out of it despite the six or so posts metioning him. Seemed more like some sort of a push, against slo0sh, than a minor disagreement. This is just the last post on his slight attack on Toad. Which is significant to me beecaaauusse: Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 04:41 BroodKingEXE wrote:On September 06 2012 03:57 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 06 2012 03:49 Z-BosoN wrote: @goodkarma Just because he is up on my suspicion bar does not mean that he is scum. He could very well be a bad townie. If he is, the only motivation he has for defending matt and attacking toad is that he actually thinks that toad is more suspicious than matt, and if so, he's doing a shitty job at explaining himself. Also, him being obnoxious doesn't contribute to his defense. At least I am not that retarded to attack someone on the ground of their first post that was clearly a joke. I already explained my motivation two post ago. If you need some help understanding it you can ask for it nicely You dont joke about scum reads. You're scum, because you are trying to derail a lynch and not trying to bring up another canidate. Real townie would create a case and present a new option, but scum dont want to give away to much and wont do that. They'll try to plug an easy lurker after a derail. I really see this as putting the responsibility on someone else to make claims and to avoid doing it himself.... He just lights touched on a couple people, but clearly expected town to start lynching themselves. So yea, I'm good with this lynch....AND the one thing I'm concerned about is that we are tunneling. And that concerns me.... still worried about the lurkers!! This ending right there is ridiculous. He's a lurker, a bad one, and his confirmation on BKE is quite weak. I can see him being just a very bad town, but I still think he's scum.
He simply doesn't scumhunt, criticizes people for not scumhunting while him himself makes shit for cases. Says he worries about lurkers and goes ahead to target me, the opposite of lurker, without making a case. He is screaming scum to me right now, I don't know how the fuck he's not getting lynched...
With what I found on BM, plus Mav's "soft defense" on him early in the game, which is the ONLY time he has ever bothered defending someone, but still keeping a distance with a "looks suspicious". Note that the "looks suspicious" is also the reason he is voting for me... check it out:
On September 07 2012 10:11 Maverick32x wrote: Okay, got through everyone's filters, so lets label some of the lurkers just to make sure we're aware:
Hopeless1der, Shady Sands, ShiaoPi, and honestly I'd like to put Austinmcc in there too just cause his posts are useless.. but meh
Okay, Obviously my read above on Forumite still stands- but I'm going to focus on DoYouHas for this next post.
He randomly decides that Bill Murray must die right away. No idea why this was important for him to post- and to be honest Bill Murray is suspicious in his own ways (not to de-rail, but a lot of one sentence responses, fluctuating 'lists' of scum etc)
So my sense is that this is a way to just accuse a peer early on, knowing that it won't stick.
And of course it doesn't, because he quickly /unvotes that so quickly that it doesn't even make sense why he would do it in the first place.
The majority of DoYouHas's posts involve meta game. Starting right at the start its his 'friend' who wanted him to vote, and people are playing as their 'meta' which he frequently refers to. We're looking at a definite Matt lynch, and he knows it, and even states it... why wouldn't he get behind that vote?
He then jumps to Hopeless1der as his next target. He just appears far too sure of himself that Hopeless is voting scum for a townie- considering his entire case is built around it.
His defense involves his own meta!! This leads me to believe that he is very aware of the 'meta' in the game, and is actively trying to fit whatever he views as 'usual' for him when he is town.
So there you have it!! My top 2 reads currently.
Has me convinced they are a scum team. Not to mention DoYouHas was a very easy case to make. Granted how they are both useless on making real actual scumreads and they flip-flop around targets, I'd happily go for any of them. I also still have my gaze fixed at forumite and Shady Sands, but I'd rather leave them for later. S&B I can't quite get a fix on him, the main reason I thought he was scummy was because I thought I found a contradiction. Now that that's gone, the only argument that stands is that he's done a shit job at making cases, and this is something both Mav and BM have in common.
So yea, definitely, right now I'm pretty set that one of them should BURN!!!!
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On September 12 2012 00:09 imallinson wrote:Forumite:First thing I noticed looking through your filter is this: Show nested quote +One lynch at a time. Once Matt is dead, we shut up during the night, and then try to figure out what his flip means tomorrow. We can´t lynch more than one target at a time, so we lynch the scummiest one and worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later. I don't like the fact you are trying to kill all discussion the rest of day one and night one. Just because we found scum day one doesn't mean we should sit around for 48 hours. You do try and make cases against Mav and Hapa but all they are based on is a touch of buddying on Matt. You recently said the same about ZB but given that Hapa and Ottox defended Matt and are town its not a great reason to go on. It worries me that you are still trying to pull reads from the Matt situation when there is a lot more posts to go on now. Show nested quote +There are like 8 players that look weird during that crucial period in the game, and that´s without counting the lurkers. This is kind of why trying to get reads from that situation isn't that productive. I said something similar to Shady a while ago when he was trying to figure out where scum were bussing Matt. To me it seems off that all your reads are based on that one situation. Z-BosonThe main thing that seems really off is this: Show nested quote +Can we, with bloodyc0bbler's 100% certainty, assume that there necessarily is one, and just one watcher?? If not 100%, how likely is it? I, along with everyone else it seems, don't see why this is relevant. He is trying to say lynching a blue is ok if we have another spare. I read that as him knowing BKE was blue and trying to justify lynching him. That screams scum to me. Then we get onto this: Show nested quote +Basically he's screaming out loud he knows austin is blue. Given how he was addressing austin, and the crumbs, it sounds reasonable, and is confirmed with this quote: Seems really inactive, however, so I'm not calling off a potential vig shot there... *looks at austin* Which is made AFTER night 1. However, his "crumbs", were made BEFORE night one, as were his other posts. If he actually suspected austin being blue, as mafia, it would be extremely advantageous to outright kill austin. He would be catching a blue in day one. I don't believe mafia would have the balls to note this and still not kill austin. My only concern is the possibility of him just leaving crumbs everywhere with his random comments. If you note, there's a lot of stuff you basically can't understand. I'm inclined to believe BM, however, because from his filter he clearly treated austin differently, something in which he did not do with anybody else. My questions are only to avoid this "random crumbing" theory I have, because otherwise that should be like a 95% clear. followed an hour later by: Show nested quote +First of all, BM didn't answer my questions, because since you guys are so blind, he threw suspicion towards austin AFTER he "blue claimed him"!! This is surely not the attitude of someone who was "absolutely sure he saw a blue". Observe, this post came after his so called "crumbs" ... Bill Murray is SCUM and needs to die! This sudden flip from thinking BM is confirmed town to scum in the space of an hour makes no sense to me. In fact thinking BM was confirmed town in the first place makes no sense in itself. Forumite still seems off to me but ZB's posting screams scum, much more so than Forumite's. How he handled the BKE thing was just plain weird and anti-town and the flip on BM makes no sense from a town perspective either. ##Unvote ##Vote: Z-Boson
Finally a case to go along with the vote, omfg.
The watcher argument I've already explained and I'll explain once again. I've played once in a newbie game, and there, fakeclaiming cop is pretty stupid, because it's almost impossible for there to be two cops. I've never played in this setup so I made this assumption: If it was a statistical likelihood that there is going to be only one watcher, then our best course of action would have been to not lynch BKE. Why? Because his claim would be short-sighted. The real watcher would pronounce himself later in the game and would give us a guaranteed scum. Why did I consider this a very strong possibility? Because no vet answered my question about this, at all. I already had suspicions on vets, and the fact that this went silent made me assume that it had a degree of truth to it, which explains why I was insistent on it. Also, I can see why this makes you confused. I can't see how this makes me scummy.
My switch on BM was planned. You can believe this or not, but listen to the arguments and see if it makes sense. He claims to have known austin was blue. He takes a "I've known it all along" stance, and wants to use this to clear him. Why would this clear him? According to him, he would have shot austin, since he's known all along. When he posted this, I looked through his filter and realized two things: 1) He threw accusations at his "blue confirmation" after the "evidence" he had posted. 2) He had not given us the single best piece of evidence he had, when he actually said "looks at austin" when concerning a vigi kill. So before I decided to make a case on him, I wanted some answers regarding these. I didn't want him to think that I was onto him, saying things like "finally you are useful, answer this and you are town!" to lure him into giving me more evidence so I could make a better case. It worked to a certain extent. The fact that he didn't answer 1), and the fact that he lied about 2). 2) is his BEST evidence, but he didn't use it! He later said that it came before night one, when it didn't. I'm sure you can agree that after n1, all his confirmations are useless, because austin died and most likely got roleblocked. So my theory is that he suspected austin was blue, but preferred to target vets in n1. Then, he somehow confirmed that austin was actually vig and made a direct reference to this.
Now why did I choose to pretend to agree with him, etc.? Again, because I honestly thought it would fish better answers out of him, since this is a huge inconsistency, backed with lies. If you believe me, great.
If not, well, again, I can see why this would strike you as weird, but please explain to me how this makes me scum. The only thing I can possibly think of is that I, as scum, was actually defending BM, but then I realized it wasn't going to stick and decided go make a case on him to compensate. This seems rather stupid for me to do as scum if I didn't really think he came off as suspicious. It would also mean that I had to think up of a case on the fly, but one of the first things I did (and I was the only one to note this as well) was notice 1) and 2).
I don't see how this is "screaming scum" at all. Out of the whole case you have against me, the only thing that can possibly make me come out as scum is what's in the paragraph above. But I ask that you give me the benefit of the doubt, granted that BM has some actual tactile evidence that he is omitting and lying about convenient things to support his claim, and due to the fact that there are still players like ShiaoPi, grush and Shady Sands around who have next-to-nothing regarding posts and just throw their vote around without justifying and being completely anti-town.
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Don't disappear guys... 3 hours till the lynch. I think BM is a better lynch today.
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On September 12 2012 03:51 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 23:56 Hopeless1der wrote:On September 11 2012 23:16 Forumite wrote: I dislike most of the case (Z-boson's case on BM), especially him calling BM out for lying, often a "lie" is the player simply forgetting something instead of scum-motivated. What I do agree with is that it´s very bad of BM to have been gone during the BKE lynch. My opinion of BM is that he doesn´t try to help. We want him to be a town leader and all he does is short posts, cryptic or irrelevant passages, FoS on me, taking back FoS on me, saying he actually always suspected me, back and forth.
The old cases on me during N1 were weak, and both BM and Toades said so, so I didn´t do much about them except resolving to get more active, and yet it´s those same reasons that are used to get me lynched today. =/ - You want BILL MURRAY to be the leader? The voice of reason, a beacon for us to rally around? Are you kidding me? - Where is this so called activity? Why is it that my posts are never responded to? Am I lurking to hard? For the last time: On September 11 2012 07:24 Forumite wrote: And there goes D3.
Come on guys, ignore the wagon for a while, where are the other scum? When I flip town, who is your next target? I´ve been away a few hours and the only thing that´s happened is that everyone´s said they want to lynch me. Doesn´t anyone have something else to add? On September 11 2012 01:09 Hopeless1der wrote: Forumite, could you perhaps flesh things out a bit more on Z-Boson, besides his interactions regarding Mattchew? Why is he a better lynch than you right now?
Forumite, Why should we lynch Z-Boson? Why do you want me to die? Make an effort to explain yourself.For reference, a case on Forumite that is not based on Meta: + Show Spoiler +On September 07 2012 02:43 Hopeless1der wrote:First, my original case on Forumite: + Show Spoiler +On September 04 2012 13:18 Hopeless1der wrote:Supposing we table the nosy-neighbor discussion(which appears to still be going strong), I would like to point out my take on Forumite: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. "We're lynching you anyway" Not cool. First, I disagree with the notion that revealing yourself as a nosy neighbor is scummy. Oh wait, Forumite didn't really say that. He didn't really say much of anything here if you ask me, but back to the point of "lynching you anyways", I don't like the blanket statements from Forumite. Here's another one: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:46 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:42 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 04 2012 09:27 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:07 BlackMamba24 wrote: I mean that blues should do what they feel is best with their own judgment and ignore any direction from the "town" Sorry, I should have been more specific. I wondered about this phrase: On September 04 2012 07:55 BlackMamba24 wrote: Never lynch someone just because they wouldn't claim to the town leader or whatever, that's asinine, asiten, asieleven, asitwelve, etc. What is there to explain? There's a difference between lynching someone for not backing themselves up after they're caught lying or whatever and lynching someone because they don't trust the town circle. It sounded weird. It´s common for the voteleader to be lynched unless he claims (convincingly). As an aside, "It sounded weird" is not a phrase I like to see. Immediately makes me suspicious. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:55 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:43 Mattchew wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. Because there is no town benefit to me hiding this information. and for all everyone knows I could be a blue role trying to avoid being incorrectly tracked as well if I get tracked to a dead person atleast there will be something to think about before mislynching me Lying to town as a blue is a bad idea. If you fakeclaim nosy neighbor to fool scum, then you risk getting lynched by town. You are still going to draw a few trackers during the first few nights, just to make sure that you are really visiting people at random with no effect, so because of this you might actually be hurting town by distracting blues. Why are trackers going to be inclined to 'verify' a nosy neighbor claim? Even if Mattchew is scum, he just needs to do something and his claim is still up in the air. Why is Forumite trying to manipulate our blues? There's also the point about lying as a blue. How about lying in general to the town? There isn't any value in this statement. Town is supposedly harmed because our Trackers have to make sure Mattchew is really visiting random people with no effect. And then they get a confirmed townie out of the exchange. Wait, how does that hurt us again?
Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:00 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Let me rephrase: What is your problem with Toades play in this game? You were reacting very strongly to a random vote coming right at the beginning of the game. Dat Over-reaction: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:42 slOosh wrote: Cool ... you wanna talk about something else? Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? And then of course slo0sh himself points out: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:17 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 10:00 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Let me rephrase: What is your problem with Toades play in this game? You were reacting very strongly to a random vote coming right at the beginning of the game. I reacted strongly because there was no grounds for the vote / read. I still have a problem with the fact that he keeps emphasizing the uselessness of the post (it isn't, because as clearly seen that people can miss setup information), which I take as soft discrediting of my posts in general. I'm not claiming my opening post is super useful, but to call it useless is unwarranted. That said I can see this coming from a town perspective, so my problem with his play thus far is a matter of taste rather than alignment. On September 04 2012 10:04 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Um... this: " My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not" You are saying that he tries to discredit you ---> you think he tried to discredit you ---> if he tried to discredit you, you are saying he wanted to do this and is being deliberately disruptive. Why not just straight answer the question without adding another one? There is a difference in someone discrediting me and someone being deliberately disruptive. Forumite phrased the question in a way that seemingly put words in my mouth as I said the former but not the latter (or never intended to so I checked with my question). Specifically the last paragraph is what I want noted. Then again, slo0sh addressed the 'strong reaction' in the first part of that quote, but I don't think slo0sh reacted 'strongly' at all. Forumite is just stirring the pot here and not really being helpful to me. He looks like he's pushing discussion, but slo0sh was taking care of that all on his own. We didn't need Forumite to prompt him.
I see a lot of roundabout advice from Forumite on why claiming self-aware miller is terrible and how our blues are screwed for it. But nowhere does he tell us that Mattchew is scummy, just that he'll still be suspicious no matter what. His prodding at slo0sh dead-ended pretty quickly and he's ducked out of the thread after making this post: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:01 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 10:00 Z-BosoN wrote: Hello folks ^^ I would appreciate it if someone could clear some things up, since I've never played in this setup yet. Right now I've noticed this new mechanic: visiting someone. A nosy neighbor will randomly visit someone. This will be caught up by the town watcher and/or tracker. Now what I don't understand: if a medic saves someone, or if a roleblocker blocks some, or if a Suicide Bomber plants a bomb somewhere, or if a goon tks someone, will they also "visit" this person? Yes, all nightactions, including mafia nightkills, can be detected by watchers and trackers. I´ve never seen you before. Have you been on TL-mafia long? What do you think about the game so far? I don't think his posts have contributed anything to getting scum lynched, and I think it is because Forumite is scum. ##Vote: Forumite+ Show Spoiler +Pregame answer for Rewok, I got curious when going through Forumite's filter: On September 03 2012 01:49 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 00:51 Rewok wrote: There's a word for arguing for arguments sake but I can't remember it. Anybody want to help me out? No there isn't! + Show Spoiler + Eristic My followup, continuing my journey through his filter: His entire reasoning for voting matt is to sheep BC: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 21:11 Forumite wrote: Still catching up with the posts made while I was asleep.
For now: ##Vote: Mattchew
He´s a scummy liar and I´m 100% behind BC for calling him out. He didn't even read the entire thread through...He initially just tossed his vote in there because BC was so sure of himself, but that wasn't really the case. How do I know this? Because in his next post, he's defending his 'out of place' vote in the spoilered post below: + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote:Reading through the thread, my vote on Matt looks kind of odd. I made it after I got a PM-confirmation from Palmar but before I saw Palmars post in the thread. Why do people fakevote, then say "lol, I never really voted!" It´s irritating. Making a vote in this thread might not count but I think it´s bad form. Similarly it´s bad to stealthvote in the other thread without confirming it here. If you want to pressurevote, do it for real. @BMShow nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:57 Bill Murray wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. check this scummy post from forumite 1) misreads the setup 2) attacks him with a smirk for the claim, which looks scummy as shit 3) takes the visiting thing a step further, saying "if they die" which clears a ton of scum roles... forumite is scum with a role FoS: Forumite I don´t get it. Matt was looking very strange for claiming when there was no benefit in claiming. I was talking to him to try and get a better read. Yes, if Matt was blue then I might have exposed him, but I wasn´t worried about that, I was thinking Matt was either NN or scum. With Matt looking more and more scummy, do you still accuse me of fishing for his role? Your FoS seem to rely on Matt being a townie, which he´s probably not. Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 09:48 Rewok wrote: Been keeping up my reading. Here's how the situation seems to me:
We're voting Mattchew today. Pretty much no getting out of that. If he turns up scum, Ottox and a few others could be on the chopping block. If he's town, we've got a whole new set of reads.
But it seems to me that our whole strategy hinges on how Mattchew turns up after he's killed. Is there any way we can get another read / another kill set up for D1? One which doesn't hinge on Mattchew's alignment?
I'm asking because you guys are way more familiar with the way TL mafia runs. One lynch at a time. Once Matt is dead, we shut up during the night, and then try to figure out what his flip means tomorrow. We can´t lynch more than one target at a time, so we lynch the scummiest one and worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later. More specifically, pulling from the spoilered post above: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: Reading through the thread, my vote on Matt looks kind of odd. I made it after I got a PM-confirmation from Palmar but before I saw Palmars post in the thread. It didn't look strange. Feel free the check the timestamps, his vote came after Palmar confirmed the lie. Forumite says he got mod confirmation anyways, but to what avail? This is a defensive statement when there is nothing to defend against. This is scummy behavior. Why did he have to sheep BC if he had mod confirmation? More scummy behavior. Next, he's reading things between lines that I have a hard time seeing. Read BM's post and show me how you came out of that thinking "Well BM is accusing me of bluefishing": Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:57 Bill Murray wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. check this scummy post from forumite 1) misreads the setup 2) attacks him with a smirk for the claim, which looks scummy as shit 3) takes the visiting thing a step further, saying "if they die" which clears a ton of scum roles... forumite is scum with a role FoS: Forumite Forumite's response to BM: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: I don´t get it. Matt was looking very strange for claiming when there was no benefit in claiming. I was talking to him to try and get a better read. Yes, if Matt was blue then I might have exposed him, but I wasn´t worried about that, I was thinking Matt was either NN or scum. Next is him stifling active discussion and being wishy-washy: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: One lynch at a time. Once Matt is dead, we shut up during the night, and then try to figure out what his flip means tomorrow. We can´t lynch more than one target at a time, so we lynch the scummiest one and worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later. He's kind of hedging his bets on what Matt's flip is going to be. This is a step back from when Matt was a scummy liar in his previous post. So what if we can't lynch more than one target at a time? I disagree with the concept of shutting up at night, but I don't necessarily see that as scum motivated. What is scummy is that we can "worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later." This isn't shutting up at night, this is shutting up in general. Rewok phrased his question poorly as an "alternative D1 target", but the basic concept of CONTINUE TO SCUMHUNT is completely valid to me.
In the next post: + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 21:19 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 12:43 Z-BosoN wrote: Allright, Mattchew is set to be lynched. What can we conclude if he flips scum or town? In the unlikely event that he will flip town, will we have enough evidence to go for a BC lynch?
My take is, if he flips town, BC's suspicions will go way up, but I don't agree with insta-lynch. We all agreed that fakeclaiming is not something a blue role would do, and is most likely coming from scum.
If he flips scum, then we will take a long hard look at the people who insist that he shouldn't be lynched.
Ox, as of now, is my top candidate for a lynch. He's been so obnoxious and so annoying regarding the whole Mattchew business that he looks the most suspicious up to now. He also has been of zero usefulness this entire game.
@Shiaopi Your meta is a little off from Dwarf Mafia, where you were town and had much more contribuitive posts in day 1. When will your internet be fixed? Basically that, if Matt flips town, then BC could be anything, but if Matt flips scum then BC is most likely town, and everyone who defended Matt until Palmars confirmation looks kind of bad. People who defend Matt after Palmars confirmation look bad for creating a disruption over something that is allready decided, that Matt lied and needs to die, but I think most scum jumped on the bandwagon long ago. If Matt is an Assassin then we get rid of both the 3rd Party in return for 2 townies dead. Not a good trade, but I think it´s unlikely that Matt is an assassin. There´s no point in not defending yourself to the end as a 3rd Party, while scum often shut up to avoid giving away any of their buddies. Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 14:38 Bill Murray wrote: No, Forumite. I don't see how you get that whatsoever. I see you as being scum with Mattchew for not jumping on voting him there. Isn´t that a different accusation? Before you accuse me of trying to get Matt to claim (meaning that you thought I was scum and Matt town), and now you say I´m scum together with Matt. To answer why I didn´t vote Matt early, at the time I was weighing on what Matt was and engaged him in conversation to get a better read, but until Palmar confirmed how Nosy Neighbors works, there wasn´t enough on Matt for me to throw down a vote. Matt was suspicious for claiming NN, but there were no proof that he was really lying at the time. Why should I vote someone who claims a town role unless I have a good reason to think he´s lying? , He basically says that if Matt flips red (which he has) then everyone looks kind of bad sometimes because of disruption and bussing something something waffle. Don't count on finding scum using Matt's flip is the message I got from that. This, in addition to his "find scum later" response to rewok reads very scummy to me. He also pushes his luck with BM regarding the bluefishing, which I don't think actually happened and Forumite is twisting the situation to make BM look bad. For the most part, he's shut up other than to call Mav scum and neglect to address the ottoxlol issue. This is null since he said he'd wanted to shut up at night, but with everything else, I'm reading heavily into Forumite being scum. - Well, I´d hope Bill Murray would at least lead a lynch on a scum sometime during this game. He´s been hanging back, most importantly during yesterdays mislynch. - I´m giving the game the time I can give, but it´s a bloody big game. Lots to read through. 1) At least the thread doesn´t grow that fast anymore, even if that´s because the scum killed the most active posters. - 2) Why Z-boson? I can´t tell, there´s a lot of scumsense and odd posts, but nothing huge and damning. There´s no single thing I can point to that is definetly a scum move, but several that make me suspect there´s a scum motivation somewhere. It´s a big game and the two flipped scum died very, very early, so unfortunately this is the best I can do for now. I´ve gotten a scumread on Z-boson and it´s one of the few that hasn´t changed through the game. I´ve flip-flopped on almost everyone else, but my read on him has been off for a long time. It could just be tunneling of course.
1) This is good then? Not to flatter myself, but you propose to kill the most active poster atm. Liking the silence? 2) I can't do anything if your spider-sense is tingling. I've given good reasons to vote for BM, I've given good reasons to vote for maverick. You claim you don't have good reasons to vote on me and do so nevertheless. We are in day three. If you aren't scum, you gotta do better than this, man.
Do me a favor, and go carefully through BM's filter. Pay attention to the key posts I've mentioned, and pay attention to the number of things that can be interpreted as "crumbs". Also, try to find crumbs on austin. The thread is large, but at least focus on the key players.
Also, you mentioned you don't want to attack him based on a lie, but it's not just that. Read my case again, preferably in a "let's see if he makes sense" state of mind, and not a "this guy is scum, he's trying to trick us all" one.
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On September 12 2012 04:18 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 04:04 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 12 2012 03:51 Forumite wrote:On September 11 2012 23:56 Hopeless1der wrote:On September 11 2012 23:16 Forumite wrote: I dislike most of the case (Z-boson's case on BM), especially him calling BM out for lying, often a "lie" is the player simply forgetting something instead of scum-motivated. What I do agree with is that it´s very bad of BM to have been gone during the BKE lynch. My opinion of BM is that he doesn´t try to help. We want him to be a town leader and all he does is short posts, cryptic or irrelevant passages, FoS on me, taking back FoS on me, saying he actually always suspected me, back and forth.
The old cases on me during N1 were weak, and both BM and Toades said so, so I didn´t do much about them except resolving to get more active, and yet it´s those same reasons that are used to get me lynched today. =/ - You want BILL MURRAY to be the leader? The voice of reason, a beacon for us to rally around? Are you kidding me? - Where is this so called activity? Why is it that my posts are never responded to? Am I lurking to hard? For the last time: On September 11 2012 07:24 Forumite wrote: And there goes D3.
Come on guys, ignore the wagon for a while, where are the other scum? When I flip town, who is your next target? I´ve been away a few hours and the only thing that´s happened is that everyone´s said they want to lynch me. Doesn´t anyone have something else to add? On September 11 2012 01:09 Hopeless1der wrote: Forumite, could you perhaps flesh things out a bit more on Z-Boson, besides his interactions regarding Mattchew? Why is he a better lynch than you right now?
Forumite, Why should we lynch Z-Boson? Why do you want me to die? Make an effort to explain yourself.For reference, a case on Forumite that is not based on Meta: + Show Spoiler +On September 07 2012 02:43 Hopeless1der wrote:First, my original case on Forumite: + Show Spoiler +On September 04 2012 13:18 Hopeless1der wrote:Supposing we table the nosy-neighbor discussion(which appears to still be going strong), I would like to point out my take on Forumite: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. "We're lynching you anyway" Not cool. First, I disagree with the notion that revealing yourself as a nosy neighbor is scummy. Oh wait, Forumite didn't really say that. He didn't really say much of anything here if you ask me, but back to the point of "lynching you anyways", I don't like the blanket statements from Forumite. Here's another one: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:46 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:42 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 04 2012 09:27 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:07 BlackMamba24 wrote: I mean that blues should do what they feel is best with their own judgment and ignore any direction from the "town" Sorry, I should have been more specific. I wondered about this phrase: On September 04 2012 07:55 BlackMamba24 wrote: Never lynch someone just because they wouldn't claim to the town leader or whatever, that's asinine, asiten, asieleven, asitwelve, etc. What is there to explain? There's a difference between lynching someone for not backing themselves up after they're caught lying or whatever and lynching someone because they don't trust the town circle. It sounded weird. It´s common for the voteleader to be lynched unless he claims (convincingly). As an aside, "It sounded weird" is not a phrase I like to see. Immediately makes me suspicious. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:55 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:43 Mattchew wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. Because there is no town benefit to me hiding this information. and for all everyone knows I could be a blue role trying to avoid being incorrectly tracked as well if I get tracked to a dead person atleast there will be something to think about before mislynching me Lying to town as a blue is a bad idea. If you fakeclaim nosy neighbor to fool scum, then you risk getting lynched by town. You are still going to draw a few trackers during the first few nights, just to make sure that you are really visiting people at random with no effect, so because of this you might actually be hurting town by distracting blues. Why are trackers going to be inclined to 'verify' a nosy neighbor claim? Even if Mattchew is scum, he just needs to do something and his claim is still up in the air. Why is Forumite trying to manipulate our blues? There's also the point about lying as a blue. How about lying in general to the town? There isn't any value in this statement. Town is supposedly harmed because our Trackers have to make sure Mattchew is really visiting random people with no effect. And then they get a confirmed townie out of the exchange. Wait, how does that hurt us again?
Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:00 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Let me rephrase: What is your problem with Toades play in this game? You were reacting very strongly to a random vote coming right at the beginning of the game. Dat Over-reaction: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:42 slOosh wrote: Cool ... you wanna talk about something else? Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? And then of course slo0sh himself points out: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:17 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 10:00 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Let me rephrase: What is your problem with Toades play in this game? You were reacting very strongly to a random vote coming right at the beginning of the game. I reacted strongly because there was no grounds for the vote / read. I still have a problem with the fact that he keeps emphasizing the uselessness of the post (it isn't, because as clearly seen that people can miss setup information), which I take as soft discrediting of my posts in general. I'm not claiming my opening post is super useful, but to call it useless is unwarranted. That said I can see this coming from a town perspective, so my problem with his play thus far is a matter of taste rather than alignment. On September 04 2012 10:04 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Um... this: " My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not" You are saying that he tries to discredit you ---> you think he tried to discredit you ---> if he tried to discredit you, you are saying he wanted to do this and is being deliberately disruptive. Why not just straight answer the question without adding another one? There is a difference in someone discrediting me and someone being deliberately disruptive. Forumite phrased the question in a way that seemingly put words in my mouth as I said the former but not the latter (or never intended to so I checked with my question). Specifically the last paragraph is what I want noted. Then again, slo0sh addressed the 'strong reaction' in the first part of that quote, but I don't think slo0sh reacted 'strongly' at all. Forumite is just stirring the pot here and not really being helpful to me. He looks like he's pushing discussion, but slo0sh was taking care of that all on his own. We didn't need Forumite to prompt him.
I see a lot of roundabout advice from Forumite on why claiming self-aware miller is terrible and how our blues are screwed for it. But nowhere does he tell us that Mattchew is scummy, just that he'll still be suspicious no matter what. His prodding at slo0sh dead-ended pretty quickly and he's ducked out of the thread after making this post: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:01 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 10:00 Z-BosoN wrote: Hello folks ^^ I would appreciate it if someone could clear some things up, since I've never played in this setup yet. Right now I've noticed this new mechanic: visiting someone. A nosy neighbor will randomly visit someone. This will be caught up by the town watcher and/or tracker. Now what I don't understand: if a medic saves someone, or if a roleblocker blocks some, or if a Suicide Bomber plants a bomb somewhere, or if a goon tks someone, will they also "visit" this person? Yes, all nightactions, including mafia nightkills, can be detected by watchers and trackers. I´ve never seen you before. Have you been on TL-mafia long? What do you think about the game so far? I don't think his posts have contributed anything to getting scum lynched, and I think it is because Forumite is scum. ##Vote: Forumite+ Show Spoiler +Pregame answer for Rewok, I got curious when going through Forumite's filter: On September 03 2012 01:49 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 00:51 Rewok wrote: There's a word for arguing for arguments sake but I can't remember it. Anybody want to help me out? No there isn't! + Show Spoiler + Eristic My followup, continuing my journey through his filter: His entire reasoning for voting matt is to sheep BC: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 21:11 Forumite wrote: Still catching up with the posts made while I was asleep.
For now: ##Vote: Mattchew
He´s a scummy liar and I´m 100% behind BC for calling him out. He didn't even read the entire thread through...He initially just tossed his vote in there because BC was so sure of himself, but that wasn't really the case. How do I know this? Because in his next post, he's defending his 'out of place' vote in the spoilered post below: + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote:Reading through the thread, my vote on Matt looks kind of odd. I made it after I got a PM-confirmation from Palmar but before I saw Palmars post in the thread. Why do people fakevote, then say "lol, I never really voted!" It´s irritating. Making a vote in this thread might not count but I think it´s bad form. Similarly it´s bad to stealthvote in the other thread without confirming it here. If you want to pressurevote, do it for real. @BMShow nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:57 Bill Murray wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. check this scummy post from forumite 1) misreads the setup 2) attacks him with a smirk for the claim, which looks scummy as shit 3) takes the visiting thing a step further, saying "if they die" which clears a ton of scum roles... forumite is scum with a role FoS: Forumite I don´t get it. Matt was looking very strange for claiming when there was no benefit in claiming. I was talking to him to try and get a better read. Yes, if Matt was blue then I might have exposed him, but I wasn´t worried about that, I was thinking Matt was either NN or scum. With Matt looking more and more scummy, do you still accuse me of fishing for his role? Your FoS seem to rely on Matt being a townie, which he´s probably not. Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 09:48 Rewok wrote: Been keeping up my reading. Here's how the situation seems to me:
We're voting Mattchew today. Pretty much no getting out of that. If he turns up scum, Ottox and a few others could be on the chopping block. If he's town, we've got a whole new set of reads.
But it seems to me that our whole strategy hinges on how Mattchew turns up after he's killed. Is there any way we can get another read / another kill set up for D1? One which doesn't hinge on Mattchew's alignment?
I'm asking because you guys are way more familiar with the way TL mafia runs. One lynch at a time. Once Matt is dead, we shut up during the night, and then try to figure out what his flip means tomorrow. We can´t lynch more than one target at a time, so we lynch the scummiest one and worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later. More specifically, pulling from the spoilered post above: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: Reading through the thread, my vote on Matt looks kind of odd. I made it after I got a PM-confirmation from Palmar but before I saw Palmars post in the thread. It didn't look strange. Feel free the check the timestamps, his vote came after Palmar confirmed the lie. Forumite says he got mod confirmation anyways, but to what avail? This is a defensive statement when there is nothing to defend against. This is scummy behavior. Why did he have to sheep BC if he had mod confirmation? More scummy behavior. Next, he's reading things between lines that I have a hard time seeing. Read BM's post and show me how you came out of that thinking "Well BM is accusing me of bluefishing": Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:57 Bill Murray wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. check this scummy post from forumite 1) misreads the setup 2) attacks him with a smirk for the claim, which looks scummy as shit 3) takes the visiting thing a step further, saying "if they die" which clears a ton of scum roles... forumite is scum with a role FoS: Forumite Forumite's response to BM: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: I don´t get it. Matt was looking very strange for claiming when there was no benefit in claiming. I was talking to him to try and get a better read. Yes, if Matt was blue then I might have exposed him, but I wasn´t worried about that, I was thinking Matt was either NN or scum. Next is him stifling active discussion and being wishy-washy: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: One lynch at a time. Once Matt is dead, we shut up during the night, and then try to figure out what his flip means tomorrow. We can´t lynch more than one target at a time, so we lynch the scummiest one and worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later. He's kind of hedging his bets on what Matt's flip is going to be. This is a step back from when Matt was a scummy liar in his previous post. So what if we can't lynch more than one target at a time? I disagree with the concept of shutting up at night, but I don't necessarily see that as scum motivated. What is scummy is that we can "worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later." This isn't shutting up at night, this is shutting up in general. Rewok phrased his question poorly as an "alternative D1 target", but the basic concept of CONTINUE TO SCUMHUNT is completely valid to me.
In the next post: + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 21:19 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 12:43 Z-BosoN wrote: Allright, Mattchew is set to be lynched. What can we conclude if he flips scum or town? In the unlikely event that he will flip town, will we have enough evidence to go for a BC lynch?
My take is, if he flips town, BC's suspicions will go way up, but I don't agree with insta-lynch. We all agreed that fakeclaiming is not something a blue role would do, and is most likely coming from scum.
If he flips scum, then we will take a long hard look at the people who insist that he shouldn't be lynched.
Ox, as of now, is my top candidate for a lynch. He's been so obnoxious and so annoying regarding the whole Mattchew business that he looks the most suspicious up to now. He also has been of zero usefulness this entire game.
@Shiaopi Your meta is a little off from Dwarf Mafia, where you were town and had much more contribuitive posts in day 1. When will your internet be fixed? Basically that, if Matt flips town, then BC could be anything, but if Matt flips scum then BC is most likely town, and everyone who defended Matt until Palmars confirmation looks kind of bad. People who defend Matt after Palmars confirmation look bad for creating a disruption over something that is allready decided, that Matt lied and needs to die, but I think most scum jumped on the bandwagon long ago. If Matt is an Assassin then we get rid of both the 3rd Party in return for 2 townies dead. Not a good trade, but I think it´s unlikely that Matt is an assassin. There´s no point in not defending yourself to the end as a 3rd Party, while scum often shut up to avoid giving away any of their buddies. Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 14:38 Bill Murray wrote: No, Forumite. I don't see how you get that whatsoever. I see you as being scum with Mattchew for not jumping on voting him there. Isn´t that a different accusation? Before you accuse me of trying to get Matt to claim (meaning that you thought I was scum and Matt town), and now you say I´m scum together with Matt. To answer why I didn´t vote Matt early, at the time I was weighing on what Matt was and engaged him in conversation to get a better read, but until Palmar confirmed how Nosy Neighbors works, there wasn´t enough on Matt for me to throw down a vote. Matt was suspicious for claiming NN, but there were no proof that he was really lying at the time. Why should I vote someone who claims a town role unless I have a good reason to think he´s lying? , He basically says that if Matt flips red (which he has) then everyone looks kind of bad sometimes because of disruption and bussing something something waffle. Don't count on finding scum using Matt's flip is the message I got from that. This, in addition to his "find scum later" response to rewok reads very scummy to me. He also pushes his luck with BM regarding the bluefishing, which I don't think actually happened and Forumite is twisting the situation to make BM look bad. For the most part, he's shut up other than to call Mav scum and neglect to address the ottoxlol issue. This is null since he said he'd wanted to shut up at night, but with everything else, I'm reading heavily into Forumite being scum. - Well, I´d hope Bill Murray would at least lead a lynch on a scum sometime during this game. He´s been hanging back, most importantly during yesterdays mislynch. - I´m giving the game the time I can give, but it´s a bloody big game. Lots to read through. 1) At least the thread doesn´t grow that fast anymore, even if that´s because the scum killed the most active posters. - 2) Why Z-boson? I can´t tell, there´s a lot of scumsense and odd posts, but nothing huge and damning. There´s no single thing I can point to that is definetly a scum move, but several that make me suspect there´s a scum motivation somewhere. It´s a big game and the two flipped scum died very, very early, so unfortunately this is the best I can do for now. I´ve gotten a scumread on Z-boson and it´s one of the few that hasn´t changed through the game. I´ve flip-flopped on almost everyone else, but my read on him has been off for a long time. It could just be tunneling of course. 1) This is good then? Not to flatter myself, but you propose to kill the most active poster atm. Liking the silence? This is another pretty good reason why I dont wanna vote Boson lol. He puts so many words in peoples mouthes. I have no idea how "At least the thread doesn´t grow that fast anymore" becomes "you propose to kill the most active poster atm". At thats hardly the first time, he hits on everything, left and right. I somehow have a hard time believing a mafia wouldnt be more...... tactical than that. That's because his vote is on me.
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On September 12 2012 04:21 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 04:18 Kreb wrote:On September 12 2012 04:04 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 12 2012 03:51 Forumite wrote:On September 11 2012 23:56 Hopeless1der wrote:On September 11 2012 23:16 Forumite wrote: I dislike most of the case (Z-boson's case on BM), especially him calling BM out for lying, often a "lie" is the player simply forgetting something instead of scum-motivated. What I do agree with is that it´s very bad of BM to have been gone during the BKE lynch. My opinion of BM is that he doesn´t try to help. We want him to be a town leader and all he does is short posts, cryptic or irrelevant passages, FoS on me, taking back FoS on me, saying he actually always suspected me, back and forth.
The old cases on me during N1 were weak, and both BM and Toades said so, so I didn´t do much about them except resolving to get more active, and yet it´s those same reasons that are used to get me lynched today. =/ - You want BILL MURRAY to be the leader? The voice of reason, a beacon for us to rally around? Are you kidding me? - Where is this so called activity? Why is it that my posts are never responded to? Am I lurking to hard? For the last time: On September 11 2012 07:24 Forumite wrote: And there goes D3.
Come on guys, ignore the wagon for a while, where are the other scum? When I flip town, who is your next target? I´ve been away a few hours and the only thing that´s happened is that everyone´s said they want to lynch me. Doesn´t anyone have something else to add? On September 11 2012 01:09 Hopeless1der wrote: Forumite, could you perhaps flesh things out a bit more on Z-Boson, besides his interactions regarding Mattchew? Why is he a better lynch than you right now?
Forumite, Why should we lynch Z-Boson? Why do you want me to die? Make an effort to explain yourself.For reference, a case on Forumite that is not based on Meta: + Show Spoiler +On September 07 2012 02:43 Hopeless1der wrote:First, my original case on Forumite: + Show Spoiler +On September 04 2012 13:18 Hopeless1der wrote:Supposing we table the nosy-neighbor discussion(which appears to still be going strong), I would like to point out my take on Forumite: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. "We're lynching you anyway" Not cool. First, I disagree with the notion that revealing yourself as a nosy neighbor is scummy. Oh wait, Forumite didn't really say that. He didn't really say much of anything here if you ask me, but back to the point of "lynching you anyways", I don't like the blanket statements from Forumite. Here's another one: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:46 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:42 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 04 2012 09:27 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:07 BlackMamba24 wrote: I mean that blues should do what they feel is best with their own judgment and ignore any direction from the "town" Sorry, I should have been more specific. I wondered about this phrase: On September 04 2012 07:55 BlackMamba24 wrote: Never lynch someone just because they wouldn't claim to the town leader or whatever, that's asinine, asiten, asieleven, asitwelve, etc. What is there to explain? There's a difference between lynching someone for not backing themselves up after they're caught lying or whatever and lynching someone because they don't trust the town circle. It sounded weird. It´s common for the voteleader to be lynched unless he claims (convincingly). As an aside, "It sounded weird" is not a phrase I like to see. Immediately makes me suspicious. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:55 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:43 Mattchew wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. Because there is no town benefit to me hiding this information. and for all everyone knows I could be a blue role trying to avoid being incorrectly tracked as well if I get tracked to a dead person atleast there will be something to think about before mislynching me Lying to town as a blue is a bad idea. If you fakeclaim nosy neighbor to fool scum, then you risk getting lynched by town. You are still going to draw a few trackers during the first few nights, just to make sure that you are really visiting people at random with no effect, so because of this you might actually be hurting town by distracting blues. Why are trackers going to be inclined to 'verify' a nosy neighbor claim? Even if Mattchew is scum, he just needs to do something and his claim is still up in the air. Why is Forumite trying to manipulate our blues? There's also the point about lying as a blue. How about lying in general to the town? There isn't any value in this statement. Town is supposedly harmed because our Trackers have to make sure Mattchew is really visiting random people with no effect. And then they get a confirmed townie out of the exchange. Wait, how does that hurt us again?
Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:00 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Let me rephrase: What is your problem with Toades play in this game? You were reacting very strongly to a random vote coming right at the beginning of the game. Dat Over-reaction: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:42 slOosh wrote: Cool ... you wanna talk about something else? Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? And then of course slo0sh himself points out: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:17 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 10:00 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Let me rephrase: What is your problem with Toades play in this game? You were reacting very strongly to a random vote coming right at the beginning of the game. I reacted strongly because there was no grounds for the vote / read. I still have a problem with the fact that he keeps emphasizing the uselessness of the post (it isn't, because as clearly seen that people can miss setup information), which I take as soft discrediting of my posts in general. I'm not claiming my opening post is super useful, but to call it useless is unwarranted. That said I can see this coming from a town perspective, so my problem with his play thus far is a matter of taste rather than alignment. On September 04 2012 10:04 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Um... this: " My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not" You are saying that he tries to discredit you ---> you think he tried to discredit you ---> if he tried to discredit you, you are saying he wanted to do this and is being deliberately disruptive. Why not just straight answer the question without adding another one? There is a difference in someone discrediting me and someone being deliberately disruptive. Forumite phrased the question in a way that seemingly put words in my mouth as I said the former but not the latter (or never intended to so I checked with my question). Specifically the last paragraph is what I want noted. Then again, slo0sh addressed the 'strong reaction' in the first part of that quote, but I don't think slo0sh reacted 'strongly' at all. Forumite is just stirring the pot here and not really being helpful to me. He looks like he's pushing discussion, but slo0sh was taking care of that all on his own. We didn't need Forumite to prompt him.
I see a lot of roundabout advice from Forumite on why claiming self-aware miller is terrible and how our blues are screwed for it. But nowhere does he tell us that Mattchew is scummy, just that he'll still be suspicious no matter what. His prodding at slo0sh dead-ended pretty quickly and he's ducked out of the thread after making this post: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:01 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 10:00 Z-BosoN wrote: Hello folks ^^ I would appreciate it if someone could clear some things up, since I've never played in this setup yet. Right now I've noticed this new mechanic: visiting someone. A nosy neighbor will randomly visit someone. This will be caught up by the town watcher and/or tracker. Now what I don't understand: if a medic saves someone, or if a roleblocker blocks some, or if a Suicide Bomber plants a bomb somewhere, or if a goon tks someone, will they also "visit" this person? Yes, all nightactions, including mafia nightkills, can be detected by watchers and trackers. I´ve never seen you before. Have you been on TL-mafia long? What do you think about the game so far? I don't think his posts have contributed anything to getting scum lynched, and I think it is because Forumite is scum. ##Vote: Forumite+ Show Spoiler +Pregame answer for Rewok, I got curious when going through Forumite's filter: On September 03 2012 01:49 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 00:51 Rewok wrote: There's a word for arguing for arguments sake but I can't remember it. Anybody want to help me out? No there isn't! + Show Spoiler + Eristic My followup, continuing my journey through his filter: His entire reasoning for voting matt is to sheep BC: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 21:11 Forumite wrote: Still catching up with the posts made while I was asleep.
For now: ##Vote: Mattchew
He´s a scummy liar and I´m 100% behind BC for calling him out. He didn't even read the entire thread through...He initially just tossed his vote in there because BC was so sure of himself, but that wasn't really the case. How do I know this? Because in his next post, he's defending his 'out of place' vote in the spoilered post below: + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote:Reading through the thread, my vote on Matt looks kind of odd. I made it after I got a PM-confirmation from Palmar but before I saw Palmars post in the thread. Why do people fakevote, then say "lol, I never really voted!" It´s irritating. Making a vote in this thread might not count but I think it´s bad form. Similarly it´s bad to stealthvote in the other thread without confirming it here. If you want to pressurevote, do it for real. @BMShow nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:57 Bill Murray wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. check this scummy post from forumite 1) misreads the setup 2) attacks him with a smirk for the claim, which looks scummy as shit 3) takes the visiting thing a step further, saying "if they die" which clears a ton of scum roles... forumite is scum with a role FoS: Forumite I don´t get it. Matt was looking very strange for claiming when there was no benefit in claiming. I was talking to him to try and get a better read. Yes, if Matt was blue then I might have exposed him, but I wasn´t worried about that, I was thinking Matt was either NN or scum. With Matt looking more and more scummy, do you still accuse me of fishing for his role? Your FoS seem to rely on Matt being a townie, which he´s probably not. Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 09:48 Rewok wrote: Been keeping up my reading. Here's how the situation seems to me:
We're voting Mattchew today. Pretty much no getting out of that. If he turns up scum, Ottox and a few others could be on the chopping block. If he's town, we've got a whole new set of reads.
But it seems to me that our whole strategy hinges on how Mattchew turns up after he's killed. Is there any way we can get another read / another kill set up for D1? One which doesn't hinge on Mattchew's alignment?
I'm asking because you guys are way more familiar with the way TL mafia runs. One lynch at a time. Once Matt is dead, we shut up during the night, and then try to figure out what his flip means tomorrow. We can´t lynch more than one target at a time, so we lynch the scummiest one and worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later. More specifically, pulling from the spoilered post above: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: Reading through the thread, my vote on Matt looks kind of odd. I made it after I got a PM-confirmation from Palmar but before I saw Palmars post in the thread. It didn't look strange. Feel free the check the timestamps, his vote came after Palmar confirmed the lie. Forumite says he got mod confirmation anyways, but to what avail? This is a defensive statement when there is nothing to defend against. This is scummy behavior. Why did he have to sheep BC if he had mod confirmation? More scummy behavior. Next, he's reading things between lines that I have a hard time seeing. Read BM's post and show me how you came out of that thinking "Well BM is accusing me of bluefishing": Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:57 Bill Murray wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. check this scummy post from forumite 1) misreads the setup 2) attacks him with a smirk for the claim, which looks scummy as shit 3) takes the visiting thing a step further, saying "if they die" which clears a ton of scum roles... forumite is scum with a role FoS: Forumite Forumite's response to BM: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: I don´t get it. Matt was looking very strange for claiming when there was no benefit in claiming. I was talking to him to try and get a better read. Yes, if Matt was blue then I might have exposed him, but I wasn´t worried about that, I was thinking Matt was either NN or scum. Next is him stifling active discussion and being wishy-washy: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: One lynch at a time. Once Matt is dead, we shut up during the night, and then try to figure out what his flip means tomorrow. We can´t lynch more than one target at a time, so we lynch the scummiest one and worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later. He's kind of hedging his bets on what Matt's flip is going to be. This is a step back from when Matt was a scummy liar in his previous post. So what if we can't lynch more than one target at a time? I disagree with the concept of shutting up at night, but I don't necessarily see that as scum motivated. What is scummy is that we can "worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later." This isn't shutting up at night, this is shutting up in general. Rewok phrased his question poorly as an "alternative D1 target", but the basic concept of CONTINUE TO SCUMHUNT is completely valid to me.
In the next post: + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 21:19 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 12:43 Z-BosoN wrote: Allright, Mattchew is set to be lynched. What can we conclude if he flips scum or town? In the unlikely event that he will flip town, will we have enough evidence to go for a BC lynch?
My take is, if he flips town, BC's suspicions will go way up, but I don't agree with insta-lynch. We all agreed that fakeclaiming is not something a blue role would do, and is most likely coming from scum.
If he flips scum, then we will take a long hard look at the people who insist that he shouldn't be lynched.
Ox, as of now, is my top candidate for a lynch. He's been so obnoxious and so annoying regarding the whole Mattchew business that he looks the most suspicious up to now. He also has been of zero usefulness this entire game.
@Shiaopi Your meta is a little off from Dwarf Mafia, where you were town and had much more contribuitive posts in day 1. When will your internet be fixed? Basically that, if Matt flips town, then BC could be anything, but if Matt flips scum then BC is most likely town, and everyone who defended Matt until Palmars confirmation looks kind of bad. People who defend Matt after Palmars confirmation look bad for creating a disruption over something that is allready decided, that Matt lied and needs to die, but I think most scum jumped on the bandwagon long ago. If Matt is an Assassin then we get rid of both the 3rd Party in return for 2 townies dead. Not a good trade, but I think it´s unlikely that Matt is an assassin. There´s no point in not defending yourself to the end as a 3rd Party, while scum often shut up to avoid giving away any of their buddies. Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 14:38 Bill Murray wrote: No, Forumite. I don't see how you get that whatsoever. I see you as being scum with Mattchew for not jumping on voting him there. Isn´t that a different accusation? Before you accuse me of trying to get Matt to claim (meaning that you thought I was scum and Matt town), and now you say I´m scum together with Matt. To answer why I didn´t vote Matt early, at the time I was weighing on what Matt was and engaged him in conversation to get a better read, but until Palmar confirmed how Nosy Neighbors works, there wasn´t enough on Matt for me to throw down a vote. Matt was suspicious for claiming NN, but there were no proof that he was really lying at the time. Why should I vote someone who claims a town role unless I have a good reason to think he´s lying? , He basically says that if Matt flips red (which he has) then everyone looks kind of bad sometimes because of disruption and bussing something something waffle. Don't count on finding scum using Matt's flip is the message I got from that. This, in addition to his "find scum later" response to rewok reads very scummy to me. He also pushes his luck with BM regarding the bluefishing, which I don't think actually happened and Forumite is twisting the situation to make BM look bad. For the most part, he's shut up other than to call Mav scum and neglect to address the ottoxlol issue. This is null since he said he'd wanted to shut up at night, but with everything else, I'm reading heavily into Forumite being scum. - Well, I´d hope Bill Murray would at least lead a lynch on a scum sometime during this game. He´s been hanging back, most importantly during yesterdays mislynch. - I´m giving the game the time I can give, but it´s a bloody big game. Lots to read through. 1) At least the thread doesn´t grow that fast anymore, even if that´s because the scum killed the most active posters. - 2) Why Z-boson? I can´t tell, there´s a lot of scumsense and odd posts, but nothing huge and damning. There´s no single thing I can point to that is definetly a scum move, but several that make me suspect there´s a scum motivation somewhere. It´s a big game and the two flipped scum died very, very early, so unfortunately this is the best I can do for now. I´ve gotten a scumread on Z-boson and it´s one of the few that hasn´t changed through the game. I´ve flip-flopped on almost everyone else, but my read on him has been off for a long time. It could just be tunneling of course. 1) This is good then? Not to flatter myself, but you propose to kill the most active poster atm. Liking the silence? This is another pretty good reason why I dont wanna vote Boson lol. He puts so many words in peoples mouthes. I have no idea how "At least the thread doesn´t grow that fast anymore" becomes "you propose to kill the most active poster atm". At thats hardly the first time, he hits on everything, left and right. I somehow have a hard time believing a mafia wouldnt be more...... tactical than that. Dafuq. This if anything IS a real to vote Boson. If you believe he is putting words in peoples mouths, you believe he is pushing scum agenda by doing the following: 1) Confusing town 2) Making someone look guilty of something that wasn't said or implied 3) Creates useless discussion based on the fact of putting words in peoples mouths
WOW Dafuq yourself 1) How am I confusing town?? I'm clear on my reads. I'm not going like two thirds of the people here going with: I think XXX looks suspicious. Vote XXX. How the fuck am I confusing people? I'm giving you arguments and you choose what you want with them. Don't act like I'm manipulating anybody, I'm stating facts and drawing conclusions. You can agree with the conclusions or not, but that's another matter. 2) Ok, this is ridiculous. I'm not making anyone looking guilty. I'm stating FACTS and implying conclusions. 3) Yea, nice idea of how town should behave. I'm giving you decent arguments that don't rely on "this guy looks suspicious, let's all vote for him, hooray!", and you somehow think this is scum-motivated?
You cannot deny that I am clear on my reads. What part of "I want to lynch BM" do you not understand? You're just acting like a scared little sheep that can't think for yourself. It's not like I have mind powers and am manipulating you all to do as I plan and thus I'm scum. Now I want to hear it. What do you propose? What's is your idea of scumhunting, hmm? If I'm making arguments that don't exist on the BM case, let's hear it. Express your thoughts, sheep.
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Also, eagerly awaiting your case on mav:
On September 11 2012 22:12 Mementoss wrote: I am at work and don't have much time. Catching up is hard, from my reading so far I think Maverick is scum and will vote him I read the most recent case on forumite but I just don't see it. Hopefully I can finish filling in the gaps of reading tonight and actually post a worthy post of why maverick is scum. I'm hoping I can make deadline today busy day.
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Oh, nothing against me, huh?
On September 12 2012 04:21 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 04:18 Kreb wrote:On September 12 2012 04:04 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 12 2012 03:51 Forumite wrote:On September 11 2012 23:56 Hopeless1der wrote:On September 11 2012 23:16 Forumite wrote: I dislike most of the case (Z-boson's case on BM), especially him calling BM out for lying, often a "lie" is the player simply forgetting something instead of scum-motivated. What I do agree with is that it´s very bad of BM to have been gone during the BKE lynch. My opinion of BM is that he doesn´t try to help. We want him to be a town leader and all he does is short posts, cryptic or irrelevant passages, FoS on me, taking back FoS on me, saying he actually always suspected me, back and forth.
The old cases on me during N1 were weak, and both BM and Toades said so, so I didn´t do much about them except resolving to get more active, and yet it´s those same reasons that are used to get me lynched today. =/ - You want BILL MURRAY to be the leader? The voice of reason, a beacon for us to rally around? Are you kidding me? - Where is this so called activity? Why is it that my posts are never responded to? Am I lurking to hard? For the last time: On September 11 2012 07:24 Forumite wrote: And there goes D3.
Come on guys, ignore the wagon for a while, where are the other scum? When I flip town, who is your next target? I´ve been away a few hours and the only thing that´s happened is that everyone´s said they want to lynch me. Doesn´t anyone have something else to add? On September 11 2012 01:09 Hopeless1der wrote: Forumite, could you perhaps flesh things out a bit more on Z-Boson, besides his interactions regarding Mattchew? Why is he a better lynch than you right now?
Forumite, Why should we lynch Z-Boson? Why do you want me to die? Make an effort to explain yourself.For reference, a case on Forumite that is not based on Meta: + Show Spoiler +On September 07 2012 02:43 Hopeless1der wrote:First, my original case on Forumite: + Show Spoiler +On September 04 2012 13:18 Hopeless1der wrote:Supposing we table the nosy-neighbor discussion(which appears to still be going strong), I would like to point out my take on Forumite: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. "We're lynching you anyway" Not cool. First, I disagree with the notion that revealing yourself as a nosy neighbor is scummy. Oh wait, Forumite didn't really say that. He didn't really say much of anything here if you ask me, but back to the point of "lynching you anyways", I don't like the blanket statements from Forumite. Here's another one: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:46 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:42 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 04 2012 09:27 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:07 BlackMamba24 wrote: I mean that blues should do what they feel is best with their own judgment and ignore any direction from the "town" Sorry, I should have been more specific. I wondered about this phrase: On September 04 2012 07:55 BlackMamba24 wrote: Never lynch someone just because they wouldn't claim to the town leader or whatever, that's asinine, asiten, asieleven, asitwelve, etc. What is there to explain? There's a difference between lynching someone for not backing themselves up after they're caught lying or whatever and lynching someone because they don't trust the town circle. It sounded weird. It´s common for the voteleader to be lynched unless he claims (convincingly). As an aside, "It sounded weird" is not a phrase I like to see. Immediately makes me suspicious. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:55 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:43 Mattchew wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. Because there is no town benefit to me hiding this information. and for all everyone knows I could be a blue role trying to avoid being incorrectly tracked as well if I get tracked to a dead person atleast there will be something to think about before mislynching me Lying to town as a blue is a bad idea. If you fakeclaim nosy neighbor to fool scum, then you risk getting lynched by town. You are still going to draw a few trackers during the first few nights, just to make sure that you are really visiting people at random with no effect, so because of this you might actually be hurting town by distracting blues. Why are trackers going to be inclined to 'verify' a nosy neighbor claim? Even if Mattchew is scum, he just needs to do something and his claim is still up in the air. Why is Forumite trying to manipulate our blues? There's also the point about lying as a blue. How about lying in general to the town? There isn't any value in this statement. Town is supposedly harmed because our Trackers have to make sure Mattchew is really visiting random people with no effect. And then they get a confirmed townie out of the exchange. Wait, how does that hurt us again?
Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:00 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Let me rephrase: What is your problem with Toades play in this game? You were reacting very strongly to a random vote coming right at the beginning of the game. Dat Over-reaction: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:42 slOosh wrote: Cool ... you wanna talk about something else? Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? And then of course slo0sh himself points out: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:17 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 10:00 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Let me rephrase: What is your problem with Toades play in this game? You were reacting very strongly to a random vote coming right at the beginning of the game. I reacted strongly because there was no grounds for the vote / read. I still have a problem with the fact that he keeps emphasizing the uselessness of the post (it isn't, because as clearly seen that people can miss setup information), which I take as soft discrediting of my posts in general. I'm not claiming my opening post is super useful, but to call it useless is unwarranted. That said I can see this coming from a town perspective, so my problem with his play thus far is a matter of taste rather than alignment. On September 04 2012 10:04 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Um... this: " My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not" You are saying that he tries to discredit you ---> you think he tried to discredit you ---> if he tried to discredit you, you are saying he wanted to do this and is being deliberately disruptive. Why not just straight answer the question without adding another one? There is a difference in someone discrediting me and someone being deliberately disruptive. Forumite phrased the question in a way that seemingly put words in my mouth as I said the former but not the latter (or never intended to so I checked with my question). Specifically the last paragraph is what I want noted. Then again, slo0sh addressed the 'strong reaction' in the first part of that quote, but I don't think slo0sh reacted 'strongly' at all. Forumite is just stirring the pot here and not really being helpful to me. He looks like he's pushing discussion, but slo0sh was taking care of that all on his own. We didn't need Forumite to prompt him.
I see a lot of roundabout advice from Forumite on why claiming self-aware miller is terrible and how our blues are screwed for it. But nowhere does he tell us that Mattchew is scummy, just that he'll still be suspicious no matter what. His prodding at slo0sh dead-ended pretty quickly and he's ducked out of the thread after making this post: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:01 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 10:00 Z-BosoN wrote: Hello folks ^^ I would appreciate it if someone could clear some things up, since I've never played in this setup yet. Right now I've noticed this new mechanic: visiting someone. A nosy neighbor will randomly visit someone. This will be caught up by the town watcher and/or tracker. Now what I don't understand: if a medic saves someone, or if a roleblocker blocks some, or if a Suicide Bomber plants a bomb somewhere, or if a goon tks someone, will they also "visit" this person? Yes, all nightactions, including mafia nightkills, can be detected by watchers and trackers. I´ve never seen you before. Have you been on TL-mafia long? What do you think about the game so far? I don't think his posts have contributed anything to getting scum lynched, and I think it is because Forumite is scum. ##Vote: Forumite+ Show Spoiler +Pregame answer for Rewok, I got curious when going through Forumite's filter: On September 03 2012 01:49 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 00:51 Rewok wrote: There's a word for arguing for arguments sake but I can't remember it. Anybody want to help me out? No there isn't! + Show Spoiler + Eristic My followup, continuing my journey through his filter: His entire reasoning for voting matt is to sheep BC: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 21:11 Forumite wrote: Still catching up with the posts made while I was asleep.
For now: ##Vote: Mattchew
He´s a scummy liar and I´m 100% behind BC for calling him out. He didn't even read the entire thread through...He initially just tossed his vote in there because BC was so sure of himself, but that wasn't really the case. How do I know this? Because in his next post, he's defending his 'out of place' vote in the spoilered post below: + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote:Reading through the thread, my vote on Matt looks kind of odd. I made it after I got a PM-confirmation from Palmar but before I saw Palmars post in the thread. Why do people fakevote, then say "lol, I never really voted!" It´s irritating. Making a vote in this thread might not count but I think it´s bad form. Similarly it´s bad to stealthvote in the other thread without confirming it here. If you want to pressurevote, do it for real. @BMShow nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:57 Bill Murray wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. check this scummy post from forumite 1) misreads the setup 2) attacks him with a smirk for the claim, which looks scummy as shit 3) takes the visiting thing a step further, saying "if they die" which clears a ton of scum roles... forumite is scum with a role FoS: Forumite I don´t get it. Matt was looking very strange for claiming when there was no benefit in claiming. I was talking to him to try and get a better read. Yes, if Matt was blue then I might have exposed him, but I wasn´t worried about that, I was thinking Matt was either NN or scum. With Matt looking more and more scummy, do you still accuse me of fishing for his role? Your FoS seem to rely on Matt being a townie, which he´s probably not. Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 09:48 Rewok wrote: Been keeping up my reading. Here's how the situation seems to me:
We're voting Mattchew today. Pretty much no getting out of that. If he turns up scum, Ottox and a few others could be on the chopping block. If he's town, we've got a whole new set of reads.
But it seems to me that our whole strategy hinges on how Mattchew turns up after he's killed. Is there any way we can get another read / another kill set up for D1? One which doesn't hinge on Mattchew's alignment?
I'm asking because you guys are way more familiar with the way TL mafia runs. One lynch at a time. Once Matt is dead, we shut up during the night, and then try to figure out what his flip means tomorrow. We can´t lynch more than one target at a time, so we lynch the scummiest one and worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later. More specifically, pulling from the spoilered post above: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: Reading through the thread, my vote on Matt looks kind of odd. I made it after I got a PM-confirmation from Palmar but before I saw Palmars post in the thread. It didn't look strange. Feel free the check the timestamps, his vote came after Palmar confirmed the lie. Forumite says he got mod confirmation anyways, but to what avail? This is a defensive statement when there is nothing to defend against. This is scummy behavior. Why did he have to sheep BC if he had mod confirmation? More scummy behavior. Next, he's reading things between lines that I have a hard time seeing. Read BM's post and show me how you came out of that thinking "Well BM is accusing me of bluefishing": Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:57 Bill Murray wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. check this scummy post from forumite 1) misreads the setup 2) attacks him with a smirk for the claim, which looks scummy as shit 3) takes the visiting thing a step further, saying "if they die" which clears a ton of scum roles... forumite is scum with a role FoS: Forumite Forumite's response to BM: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: I don´t get it. Matt was looking very strange for claiming when there was no benefit in claiming. I was talking to him to try and get a better read. Yes, if Matt was blue then I might have exposed him, but I wasn´t worried about that, I was thinking Matt was either NN or scum. Next is him stifling active discussion and being wishy-washy: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: One lynch at a time. Once Matt is dead, we shut up during the night, and then try to figure out what his flip means tomorrow. We can´t lynch more than one target at a time, so we lynch the scummiest one and worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later. He's kind of hedging his bets on what Matt's flip is going to be. This is a step back from when Matt was a scummy liar in his previous post. So what if we can't lynch more than one target at a time? I disagree with the concept of shutting up at night, but I don't necessarily see that as scum motivated. What is scummy is that we can "worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later." This isn't shutting up at night, this is shutting up in general. Rewok phrased his question poorly as an "alternative D1 target", but the basic concept of CONTINUE TO SCUMHUNT is completely valid to me.
In the next post: + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 21:19 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 12:43 Z-BosoN wrote: Allright, Mattchew is set to be lynched. What can we conclude if he flips scum or town? In the unlikely event that he will flip town, will we have enough evidence to go for a BC lynch?
My take is, if he flips town, BC's suspicions will go way up, but I don't agree with insta-lynch. We all agreed that fakeclaiming is not something a blue role would do, and is most likely coming from scum.
If he flips scum, then we will take a long hard look at the people who insist that he shouldn't be lynched.
Ox, as of now, is my top candidate for a lynch. He's been so obnoxious and so annoying regarding the whole Mattchew business that he looks the most suspicious up to now. He also has been of zero usefulness this entire game.
@Shiaopi Your meta is a little off from Dwarf Mafia, where you were town and had much more contribuitive posts in day 1. When will your internet be fixed? Basically that, if Matt flips town, then BC could be anything, but if Matt flips scum then BC is most likely town, and everyone who defended Matt until Palmars confirmation looks kind of bad. People who defend Matt after Palmars confirmation look bad for creating a disruption over something that is allready decided, that Matt lied and needs to die, but I think most scum jumped on the bandwagon long ago. If Matt is an Assassin then we get rid of both the 3rd Party in return for 2 townies dead. Not a good trade, but I think it´s unlikely that Matt is an assassin. There´s no point in not defending yourself to the end as a 3rd Party, while scum often shut up to avoid giving away any of their buddies. Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 14:38 Bill Murray wrote: No, Forumite. I don't see how you get that whatsoever. I see you as being scum with Mattchew for not jumping on voting him there. Isn´t that a different accusation? Before you accuse me of trying to get Matt to claim (meaning that you thought I was scum and Matt town), and now you say I´m scum together with Matt. To answer why I didn´t vote Matt early, at the time I was weighing on what Matt was and engaged him in conversation to get a better read, but until Palmar confirmed how Nosy Neighbors works, there wasn´t enough on Matt for me to throw down a vote. Matt was suspicious for claiming NN, but there were no proof that he was really lying at the time. Why should I vote someone who claims a town role unless I have a good reason to think he´s lying? , He basically says that if Matt flips red (which he has) then everyone looks kind of bad sometimes because of disruption and bussing something something waffle. Don't count on finding scum using Matt's flip is the message I got from that. This, in addition to his "find scum later" response to rewok reads very scummy to me. He also pushes his luck with BM regarding the bluefishing, which I don't think actually happened and Forumite is twisting the situation to make BM look bad. For the most part, he's shut up other than to call Mav scum and neglect to address the ottoxlol issue. This is null since he said he'd wanted to shut up at night, but with everything else, I'm reading heavily into Forumite being scum. - Well, I´d hope Bill Murray would at least lead a lynch on a scum sometime during this game. He´s been hanging back, most importantly during yesterdays mislynch. - I´m giving the game the time I can give, but it´s a bloody big game. Lots to read through. 1) At least the thread doesn´t grow that fast anymore, even if that´s because the scum killed the most active posters. - 2) Why Z-boson? I can´t tell, there´s a lot of scumsense and odd posts, but nothing huge and damning. There´s no single thing I can point to that is definetly a scum move, but several that make me suspect there´s a scum motivation somewhere. It´s a big game and the two flipped scum died very, very early, so unfortunately this is the best I can do for now. I´ve gotten a scumread on Z-boson and it´s one of the few that hasn´t changed through the game. I´ve flip-flopped on almost everyone else, but my read on him has been off for a long time. It could just be tunneling of course. 1) This is good then? Not to flatter myself, but you propose to kill the most active poster atm. Liking the silence? This is another pretty good reason why I dont wanna vote Boson lol. He puts so many words in peoples mouthes. I have no idea how "At least the thread doesn´t grow that fast anymore" becomes "you propose to kill the most active poster atm". At thats hardly the first time, he hits on everything, left and right. I somehow have a hard time believing a mafia wouldnt be more...... tactical than that. Dafuq. This if anything IS a real to vote Boson. If you believe he is putting words in peoples mouths, you believe he is pushing scum agenda by doing the following:1) Confusing town 2) Making someone look guilty of something that wasn't said or implied 3) Creates useless discussion based on the fact of putting words in peoples mouths
I felt it was implied. I think you went a bit overboard on the semantics of "Putting words into peoples mouths". He means I'm giving people arguments to work with. I understood this, because if you have read the game, that's exactly what I'm doing. You, for some reason, think that means 1) 2) and 3). Since I cannot fathom how it could POSSIBLY mean 1) 2) and 3) granted how I've been posting, I felt that this was implied, granted kreb's statement was entirely towards me. So the only conclusion I can draw from your comment is that you have not yet read the game carefully enough. Please do so, and share your thoughts on mav. Sorry for the aggressiveness, I'm pissed at how some people are behaving here and how that's going unnoticed.
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On September 12 2012 04:54 Gravan wrote: At this point, my viewpoint is as follows (on the big topics):
Bill Murray is still suspicious, but, really, who the fuck knows? Z-Boson is highly suspicious.
Forumite is highly suspicious, and very shifty. For somebody who is posting somewhat regularily, he hasn't done too much to defend himself other than point as many fingers as he can as quickly as he can - something that seems really scummy.
I wish we had another day to talk about this, heh.
##Vote Forumite.
This is exactly why I'm defensive, not about posts that disagree with me, but about posts like this. You sheep don't bother making real cases, don't bother commenting on the real cases, and just follow along the trend. Forumite's suspicious? Yes I very much think so. He's made few cases and has been, like you, very casual about his votes. I fail to see how, at the moment, BM doesn't seem more suspicious than him, however. And I'm bothered by the fact that no one has bothered giving me any reasons as to why they think my case on BM sucks and doesn't deserve merit. Aside from imallinson, all we are getting is two-liner "this guy is suspicious" posts, and this makes scum feel comfortable blending in, because they don't have to bother scumhunting. Why is this bad? Because scum can't genuinely scumhunt and are bound to make mistakes. Thus, I strongly feel they must be forced to scumhunt, but that's not gonna happen with these kind of posts.
Anyways, I'm done ranting. I hope people can agree with me here...
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On September 12 2012 05:02 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 04:46 Z-BosoN wrote:Oh, nothing against me, huh? On September 12 2012 04:21 Mementoss wrote:On September 12 2012 04:18 Kreb wrote:On September 12 2012 04:04 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 12 2012 03:51 Forumite wrote:On September 11 2012 23:56 Hopeless1der wrote:On September 11 2012 23:16 Forumite wrote: I dislike most of the case (Z-boson's case on BM), especially him calling BM out for lying, often a "lie" is the player simply forgetting something instead of scum-motivated. What I do agree with is that it´s very bad of BM to have been gone during the BKE lynch. My opinion of BM is that he doesn´t try to help. We want him to be a town leader and all he does is short posts, cryptic or irrelevant passages, FoS on me, taking back FoS on me, saying he actually always suspected me, back and forth.
The old cases on me during N1 were weak, and both BM and Toades said so, so I didn´t do much about them except resolving to get more active, and yet it´s those same reasons that are used to get me lynched today. =/ - You want BILL MURRAY to be the leader? The voice of reason, a beacon for us to rally around? Are you kidding me? - Where is this so called activity? Why is it that my posts are never responded to? Am I lurking to hard? For the last time: On September 11 2012 07:24 Forumite wrote: And there goes D3.
Come on guys, ignore the wagon for a while, where are the other scum? When I flip town, who is your next target? I´ve been away a few hours and the only thing that´s happened is that everyone´s said they want to lynch me. Doesn´t anyone have something else to add? On September 11 2012 01:09 Hopeless1der wrote: Forumite, could you perhaps flesh things out a bit more on Z-Boson, besides his interactions regarding Mattchew? Why is he a better lynch than you right now?
Forumite, Why should we lynch Z-Boson? Why do you want me to die? Make an effort to explain yourself.For reference, a case on Forumite that is not based on Meta: + Show Spoiler +On September 07 2012 02:43 Hopeless1der wrote:First, my original case on Forumite: + Show Spoiler +On September 04 2012 13:18 Hopeless1der wrote:Supposing we table the nosy-neighbor discussion(which appears to still be going strong), I would like to point out my take on Forumite: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. "We're lynching you anyway" Not cool. First, I disagree with the notion that revealing yourself as a nosy neighbor is scummy. Oh wait, Forumite didn't really say that. He didn't really say much of anything here if you ask me, but back to the point of "lynching you anyways", I don't like the blanket statements from Forumite. Here's another one: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:46 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:42 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 04 2012 09:27 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:07 BlackMamba24 wrote: I mean that blues should do what they feel is best with their own judgment and ignore any direction from the "town" Sorry, I should have been more specific. I wondered about this phrase: On September 04 2012 07:55 BlackMamba24 wrote: Never lynch someone just because they wouldn't claim to the town leader or whatever, that's asinine, asiten, asieleven, asitwelve, etc. What is there to explain? There's a difference between lynching someone for not backing themselves up after they're caught lying or whatever and lynching someone because they don't trust the town circle. It sounded weird. It´s common for the voteleader to be lynched unless he claims (convincingly). As an aside, "It sounded weird" is not a phrase I like to see. Immediately makes me suspicious. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:55 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:43 Mattchew wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. Because there is no town benefit to me hiding this information. and for all everyone knows I could be a blue role trying to avoid being incorrectly tracked as well if I get tracked to a dead person atleast there will be something to think about before mislynching me Lying to town as a blue is a bad idea. If you fakeclaim nosy neighbor to fool scum, then you risk getting lynched by town. You are still going to draw a few trackers during the first few nights, just to make sure that you are really visiting people at random with no effect, so because of this you might actually be hurting town by distracting blues. Why are trackers going to be inclined to 'verify' a nosy neighbor claim? Even if Mattchew is scum, he just needs to do something and his claim is still up in the air. Why is Forumite trying to manipulate our blues? There's also the point about lying as a blue. How about lying in general to the town? There isn't any value in this statement. Town is supposedly harmed because our Trackers have to make sure Mattchew is really visiting random people with no effect. And then they get a confirmed townie out of the exchange. Wait, how does that hurt us again?
Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:00 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Let me rephrase: What is your problem with Toades play in this game? You were reacting very strongly to a random vote coming right at the beginning of the game. Dat Over-reaction: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:42 slOosh wrote: Cool ... you wanna talk about something else? Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? And then of course slo0sh himself points out: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:17 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 10:00 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Let me rephrase: What is your problem with Toades play in this game? You were reacting very strongly to a random vote coming right at the beginning of the game. I reacted strongly because there was no grounds for the vote / read. I still have a problem with the fact that he keeps emphasizing the uselessness of the post (it isn't, because as clearly seen that people can miss setup information), which I take as soft discrediting of my posts in general. I'm not claiming my opening post is super useful, but to call it useless is unwarranted. That said I can see this coming from a town perspective, so my problem with his play thus far is a matter of taste rather than alignment. On September 04 2012 10:04 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 04 2012 09:55 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 09:05 Forumite wrote:Finished with page 12. On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? What is your problem with Toades? Do you think he´s deliberately disruptive? What makes you think I think that? Um... this: " My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not" You are saying that he tries to discredit you ---> you think he tried to discredit you ---> if he tried to discredit you, you are saying he wanted to do this and is being deliberately disruptive. Why not just straight answer the question without adding another one? There is a difference in someone discrediting me and someone being deliberately disruptive. Forumite phrased the question in a way that seemingly put words in my mouth as I said the former but not the latter (or never intended to so I checked with my question). Specifically the last paragraph is what I want noted. Then again, slo0sh addressed the 'strong reaction' in the first part of that quote, but I don't think slo0sh reacted 'strongly' at all. Forumite is just stirring the pot here and not really being helpful to me. He looks like he's pushing discussion, but slo0sh was taking care of that all on his own. We didn't need Forumite to prompt him.
I see a lot of roundabout advice from Forumite on why claiming self-aware miller is terrible and how our blues are screwed for it. But nowhere does he tell us that Mattchew is scummy, just that he'll still be suspicious no matter what. His prodding at slo0sh dead-ended pretty quickly and he's ducked out of the thread after making this post: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 10:01 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 10:00 Z-BosoN wrote: Hello folks ^^ I would appreciate it if someone could clear some things up, since I've never played in this setup yet. Right now I've noticed this new mechanic: visiting someone. A nosy neighbor will randomly visit someone. This will be caught up by the town watcher and/or tracker. Now what I don't understand: if a medic saves someone, or if a roleblocker blocks some, or if a Suicide Bomber plants a bomb somewhere, or if a goon tks someone, will they also "visit" this person? Yes, all nightactions, including mafia nightkills, can be detected by watchers and trackers. I´ve never seen you before. Have you been on TL-mafia long? What do you think about the game so far? I don't think his posts have contributed anything to getting scum lynched, and I think it is because Forumite is scum. ##Vote: Forumite+ Show Spoiler +Pregame answer for Rewok, I got curious when going through Forumite's filter: On September 03 2012 01:49 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 00:51 Rewok wrote: There's a word for arguing for arguments sake but I can't remember it. Anybody want to help me out? No there isn't! + Show Spoiler + Eristic My followup, continuing my journey through his filter: His entire reasoning for voting matt is to sheep BC: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 21:11 Forumite wrote: Still catching up with the posts made while I was asleep.
For now: ##Vote: Mattchew
He´s a scummy liar and I´m 100% behind BC for calling him out. He didn't even read the entire thread through...He initially just tossed his vote in there because BC was so sure of himself, but that wasn't really the case. How do I know this? Because in his next post, he's defending his 'out of place' vote in the spoilered post below: + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote:Reading through the thread, my vote on Matt looks kind of odd. I made it after I got a PM-confirmation from Palmar but before I saw Palmars post in the thread. Why do people fakevote, then say "lol, I never really voted!" It´s irritating. Making a vote in this thread might not count but I think it´s bad form. Similarly it´s bad to stealthvote in the other thread without confirming it here. If you want to pressurevote, do it for real. @BMShow nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:57 Bill Murray wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. check this scummy post from forumite 1) misreads the setup 2) attacks him with a smirk for the claim, which looks scummy as shit 3) takes the visiting thing a step further, saying "if they die" which clears a ton of scum roles... forumite is scum with a role FoS: Forumite I don´t get it. Matt was looking very strange for claiming when there was no benefit in claiming. I was talking to him to try and get a better read. Yes, if Matt was blue then I might have exposed him, but I wasn´t worried about that, I was thinking Matt was either NN or scum. With Matt looking more and more scummy, do you still accuse me of fishing for his role? Your FoS seem to rely on Matt being a townie, which he´s probably not. Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 09:48 Rewok wrote: Been keeping up my reading. Here's how the situation seems to me:
We're voting Mattchew today. Pretty much no getting out of that. If he turns up scum, Ottox and a few others could be on the chopping block. If he's town, we've got a whole new set of reads.
But it seems to me that our whole strategy hinges on how Mattchew turns up after he's killed. Is there any way we can get another read / another kill set up for D1? One which doesn't hinge on Mattchew's alignment?
I'm asking because you guys are way more familiar with the way TL mafia runs. One lynch at a time. Once Matt is dead, we shut up during the night, and then try to figure out what his flip means tomorrow. We can´t lynch more than one target at a time, so we lynch the scummiest one and worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later. More specifically, pulling from the spoilered post above: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: Reading through the thread, my vote on Matt looks kind of odd. I made it after I got a PM-confirmation from Palmar but before I saw Palmars post in the thread. It didn't look strange. Feel free the check the timestamps, his vote came after Palmar confirmed the lie. Forumite says he got mod confirmation anyways, but to what avail? This is a defensive statement when there is nothing to defend against. This is scummy behavior. Why did he have to sheep BC if he had mod confirmation? More scummy behavior. Next, he's reading things between lines that I have a hard time seeing. Read BM's post and show me how you came out of that thinking "Well BM is accusing me of bluefishing": Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:57 Bill Murray wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. check this scummy post from forumite 1) misreads the setup 2) attacks him with a smirk for the claim, which looks scummy as shit 3) takes the visiting thing a step further, saying "if they die" which clears a ton of scum roles... forumite is scum with a role FoS: Forumite Forumite's response to BM: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: I don´t get it. Matt was looking very strange for claiming when there was no benefit in claiming. I was talking to him to try and get a better read. Yes, if Matt was blue then I might have exposed him, but I wasn´t worried about that, I was thinking Matt was either NN or scum. Next is him stifling active discussion and being wishy-washy: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:17 Forumite wrote: One lynch at a time. Once Matt is dead, we shut up during the night, and then try to figure out what his flip means tomorrow. We can´t lynch more than one target at a time, so we lynch the scummiest one and worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later. He's kind of hedging his bets on what Matt's flip is going to be. This is a step back from when Matt was a scummy liar in his previous post. So what if we can't lynch more than one target at a time? I disagree with the concept of shutting up at night, but I don't necessarily see that as scum motivated. What is scummy is that we can "worry about finding the rest of the scumteam later." This isn't shutting up at night, this is shutting up in general. Rewok phrased his question poorly as an "alternative D1 target", but the basic concept of CONTINUE TO SCUMHUNT is completely valid to me.
In the next post: + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 21:19 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 12:43 Z-BosoN wrote: Allright, Mattchew is set to be lynched. What can we conclude if he flips scum or town? In the unlikely event that he will flip town, will we have enough evidence to go for a BC lynch?
My take is, if he flips town, BC's suspicions will go way up, but I don't agree with insta-lynch. We all agreed that fakeclaiming is not something a blue role would do, and is most likely coming from scum.
If he flips scum, then we will take a long hard look at the people who insist that he shouldn't be lynched.
Ox, as of now, is my top candidate for a lynch. He's been so obnoxious and so annoying regarding the whole Mattchew business that he looks the most suspicious up to now. He also has been of zero usefulness this entire game.
@Shiaopi Your meta is a little off from Dwarf Mafia, where you were town and had much more contribuitive posts in day 1. When will your internet be fixed? Basically that, if Matt flips town, then BC could be anything, but if Matt flips scum then BC is most likely town, and everyone who defended Matt until Palmars confirmation looks kind of bad. People who defend Matt after Palmars confirmation look bad for creating a disruption over something that is allready decided, that Matt lied and needs to die, but I think most scum jumped on the bandwagon long ago. If Matt is an Assassin then we get rid of both the 3rd Party in return for 2 townies dead. Not a good trade, but I think it´s unlikely that Matt is an assassin. There´s no point in not defending yourself to the end as a 3rd Party, while scum often shut up to avoid giving away any of their buddies. Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 14:38 Bill Murray wrote: No, Forumite. I don't see how you get that whatsoever. I see you as being scum with Mattchew for not jumping on voting him there. Isn´t that a different accusation? Before you accuse me of trying to get Matt to claim (meaning that you thought I was scum and Matt town), and now you say I´m scum together with Matt. To answer why I didn´t vote Matt early, at the time I was weighing on what Matt was and engaged him in conversation to get a better read, but until Palmar confirmed how Nosy Neighbors works, there wasn´t enough on Matt for me to throw down a vote. Matt was suspicious for claiming NN, but there were no proof that he was really lying at the time. Why should I vote someone who claims a town role unless I have a good reason to think he´s lying? , He basically says that if Matt flips red (which he has) then everyone looks kind of bad sometimes because of disruption and bussing something something waffle. Don't count on finding scum using Matt's flip is the message I got from that. This, in addition to his "find scum later" response to rewok reads very scummy to me. He also pushes his luck with BM regarding the bluefishing, which I don't think actually happened and Forumite is twisting the situation to make BM look bad. For the most part, he's shut up other than to call Mav scum and neglect to address the ottoxlol issue. This is null since he said he'd wanted to shut up at night, but with everything else, I'm reading heavily into Forumite being scum. - Well, I´d hope Bill Murray would at least lead a lynch on a scum sometime during this game. He´s been hanging back, most importantly during yesterdays mislynch. - I´m giving the game the time I can give, but it´s a bloody big game. Lots to read through. 1) At least the thread doesn´t grow that fast anymore, even if that´s because the scum killed the most active posters. - 2) Why Z-boson? I can´t tell, there´s a lot of scumsense and odd posts, but nothing huge and damning. There´s no single thing I can point to that is definetly a scum move, but several that make me suspect there´s a scum motivation somewhere. It´s a big game and the two flipped scum died very, very early, so unfortunately this is the best I can do for now. I´ve gotten a scumread on Z-boson and it´s one of the few that hasn´t changed through the game. I´ve flip-flopped on almost everyone else, but my read on him has been off for a long time. It could just be tunneling of course. 1) This is good then? Not to flatter myself, but you propose to kill the most active poster atm. Liking the silence? This is another pretty good reason why I dont wanna vote Boson lol. He puts so many words in peoples mouthes. I have no idea how "At least the thread doesn´t grow that fast anymore" becomes "you propose to kill the most active poster atm". At thats hardly the first time, he hits on everything, left and right. I somehow have a hard time believing a mafia wouldnt be more...... tactical than that. Dafuq. This if anything IS a real to vote Boson. If you believe he is putting words in peoples mouths, you believe he is pushing scum agenda by doing the following:1) Confusing town 2) Making someone look guilty of something that wasn't said or implied 3) Creates useless discussion based on the fact of putting words in peoples mouths I felt it was implied. I think you went a bit overboard on the semantics of "Putting words into peoples mouths". He means I'm giving people arguments to work with. I understood this, because if you have read the game, that's exactly what I'm doing. You, for some reason, think that means 1) 2) and 3). Since I cannot fathom how it could POSSIBLY mean 1) 2) and 3) granted how I've been posting, I felt that this was implied, granted kreb's statement was entirely towards me. So the only conclusion I can draw from your comment is that you have not yet read the game carefully enough. Please do so, and share your thoughts on mav. Sorry for the aggressiveness, I'm pissed at how some people are behaving here and how that's going unnoticed. If - as Kreb said - you were putting words into peoples' mouths, then momentoss's reaction is completely justified. Putting words into peoples' mouths IS used by scum in all the ways he mentioned. He never once said that you were doing so, he only said that if Kreb thinks you're doing so, then he's interpreting it in the completely wrong way. I agree with him entirely. This is the second time you've reacted over-defensively to something rather inconsequential. The first was when two people voted for you and you claimed there were five. This was in the middle of the massive wagon building onto Forumite. 8 people vote Forumite, 2 vote you, suddenly it's "OMG where are these votes coming from? This wagon on me is so big and sudden without a case!" Why so defensive?
Refer to the above post I answered Gravan with. Because they were completely unjustified. I had two votes, but there were 3-5 people saying "Z-BosoN is my top scumread" and that's it. This is shit, we are in day three and we were better off in day one with the cases being made. Also because I took the time to make the BM case and few people have even responded. Look at my answer to imallinson's case on me to confirm this - I'm not defensive. I am, however, trying to make people stop this hardcore sheeping. Like I said, this is the best environment scum can thrive in, because they don't need to bother themselves making real scumreads and thus not needing to risk making mistakes.
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What a bad case, has so many wrong information on it, and much of it I've already gone over. Makes me HIGHLY suspicious of you for coming with it so late.
On September 12 2012 06:48 mkfuba07 wrote:My vote is going to go to Z-BosoN. There are just too many aspects of his play that rub me the wrong way. BKE played awfullyFollowing the BKE lynch, ZB's response was to point out how it was the veterans' fault because they wouldn't answer his question regarding whether or not there were likely to be multiple watchers. Nope, wrong. I already explained this, not going over that again. Keep in mind that Toad actually did address his question in this post. missed this. big deal..He also points out how he would have constantly repeated the question if he hadn't been forced to keep defending himself "unnecessarily". He points the finger at the remaining vets, says how townish he would have been had he been under less pressure to defend himself, and then martyrs himself by saying that he shouldn't have put up with the silly cases against him. All of this means absolutely nothing. His entire massive post seems like a waste of time to me, but it's clear that he's trying to turn it into townie points for himself. I already said, I thought I was onto something at the time. Not going to repeat this, read my response to imallinson's caseFollowing the "vets are all suspicious now" paragraphs, he tells austinmcc to save his case against [him] for day 3, should [they] both live. He then elaborates on what he *would have thought* if austin's case *had come a little bit later.* Not only is he trying to completely stiffle a case being brought against him in order to pursue the illogical suspicions of all of the remaining vets, but, again, this entire section says nothing whatsoever. If this would have happened, then I would have found you scummy. Don't you think I could have found you scummy? But really, you're just thick. I still stand by what I said. Wasting time discussing me at night would prove useless. Since the odds were high that one of the vets would die, we should just have tried to get as much input from them as possible. I gave my thoughts on why I thought this was a good choice, but you choose to ignore them.Then there's his death post. Another post that I felt was unnecessary. He says that he thinks Hapa is town because Hapa thought he was town, and then points out how what Hapa said could just be a scumplay trying to gain townie points. I don't even know what we're supposed to have taken from that, but all it did for me was plant the idea of Hapa swindling town points out of our pockets using ZB's sterling reputation. It feels like he's subtly boosting his own towncred while calling Hapa's into question. No. I said that hapa is almost surely townie UNLESS I die and he doesn't, and I explained why.He then says that he didn't like Toad's good-bye post. ... Why are you writing a good-bye post if you don't like that someone else did it? Yes, that's exactly what I said. I don't like good-bye posts. I didn't even say why I thought his good-bye post was scummy, and neither did hapa. We just don't like good-bye posts. What a dumb point.He follows it up by saying that if Forumite flips red, then Toad *might* be confirmed town. He also points out how very good at bussing Toad is. Again, this entire paragraph tells us nothing. As does this one. Actually, no, mine actually says that it didn't look like a bus, so if forumite was scum, toad would not likely have been scum.Finally, we get to the "Lurkers" section, where he points fingers at everyone else in the game. He also repeats the fact that the scum vigi hasn't used his shots yet. First of all, he seems too certain of there being a scum vigi. He mentions it repeatedly. I honestly thought there was guaranteed. Also, the first one to say this as an assumption was imallinsonOn top of town not knowing if one exists, there's nothing we can gain from that reasoning. There's too much wifom involved. This is another case of ZB trying to follow a line of reasoning that doesn't help town (just like his irrational obsession with the number of watchers in the game) and only wastes time. Wastes time in regards to what? Sheeping? I'm constantly trying to figure stuff out. I don't pause and think if I will look suspicious or not if I find something. I've made bad points and I've made good points. On top of that, he calls for someone who hasn't even been a part of the game yet to be the top lynch candidate for D3. What were we supposed to discuss? How Lvdr didn't post and how I had to read 80 pages to get caught up? This part is a little OMGUS-y, but it's a ridiculous claim that can't be supported in any way. It casts dispersions on me when I haven't done anything. He was attempting to find scummy behaviour where there was none, and distract the town with it. Again, I was assuming that mafia had a vig. I also said later that I was wrong for thisI apologize that this is appearing so late. I had to attend class and then ride the bus home. It takes forever <.< ##Vote Z-BosoN
I urge you to read everything instead of nitpicking things that could make me suspicious in your narrow little view. Half the stuff I've already explained. Don't bother me with shit cases please. You only show you are biased when making cases and can't read
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On September 12 2012 07:18 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 07:13 Z-BosoN wrote:What a bad case, has so many wrong information on it, and much of it I've already gone over. Makes me HIGHLY suspicious of you for coming with it so late. On September 12 2012 06:48 mkfuba07 wrote:My vote is going to go to Z-BosoN. There are just too many aspects of his play that rub me the wrong way. BKE played awfullyFollowing the BKE lynch, ZB's response was to point out how it was the veterans' fault because they wouldn't answer his question regarding whether or not there were likely to be multiple watchers. Nope, wrong. I already explained this, not going over that again. Keep in mind that Toad actually did address his question in this post. missed this. big deal..He also points out how he would have constantly repeated the question if he hadn't been forced to keep defending himself "unnecessarily". He points the finger at the remaining vets, says how townish he would have been had he been under less pressure to defend himself, and then martyrs himself by saying that he shouldn't have put up with the silly cases against him. All of this means absolutely nothing. Odds are, scummies will be the first ones to react negatively to this post. Keep this in mind. His entire massive post seems like a waste of time to me, but it's clear that he's trying to turn it into townie points for himself. I already said, I thought I was onto something at the time. Not going to repeat this, read my response to imallinson's caseFollowing the "vets are all suspicious now" paragraphs, he tells austinmcc to save his case against [him] for day 3, should [they] both live. He then elaborates on what he *would have thought* if austin's case *had come a little bit later.* Not only is he trying to completely stiffle a case being brought against him in order to pursue the illogical suspicions of all of the remaining vets, but, again, this entire section says nothing whatsoever. I expect fuba to react, but I have a town read on him. If this would have happened, then I would have found you scummy. Don't you think I could have found you scummy? But really, you're just thick. I still stand by what I said. Wasting time discussing me at night would prove useless. Since the odds were high that one of the vets would die, we should just have tried to get as much input from them as possible. I gave my thoughts on why I thought this was a good choice, but you choose to ignore them.Then there's his death post. Another post that I felt was unnecessary. So yea, whoever has the weakest vote on me and reacts negatively here has a very high chance of being scum. He says that he thinks Hapa is town because Hapa thought he was town, and then points out how what Hapa said could just be a scumplay trying to gain townie points. I don't even know what we're supposed to have taken from that, but all it did for me was plant the idea of Hapa swindling town points out of our pockets using ZB's sterling reputation. It feels like he's subtly boosting his own towncred while calling Hapa's into question. No. I said that hapa is almost surely townie UNLESS I die and he doesn't, and I explained why.He then says that he didn't like Toad's good-bye post. ... Why are you writing a good-bye post if you don't like that someone else did it? Yes, that's exactly what I said. I don't like good-bye posts. I didn't even say why I thought his good-bye post was scummy, and neither did hapa. We just don't like good-bye posts. What a dumb point.He follows it up by saying that if Forumite flips red, then Toad *might* be confirmed town. He also points out how very good at bussing Toad is. Again, this entire paragraph tells us nothing. As does this one. Actually, no, mine actually says that it didn't look like a bus, so if forumite was scum, toad would not likely have been scum.Finally, we get to the "Lurkers" section, where he points fingers at everyone else in the game. He also repeats the fact that the scum vigi hasn't used his shots yet. First of all, he seems too certain of there being a scum vigi. He mentions it repeatedly. I honestly thought there was guaranteed. Also, the first one to say this as an assumption was imallinsonOn top of town not knowing if one exists, there's nothing we can gain from that reasoning. There's too much wifom involved. This is another case of ZB trying to follow a line of reasoning that doesn't help town (just like his irrational obsession with the number of watchers in the game) and only wastes time. Wastes time in regards to what? Sheeping? I'm constantly trying to figure stuff out. I don't pause and think if I will look suspicious or not if I find something. I've made bad points and I've made good points. On top of that, he calls for someone who hasn't even been a part of the game yet to be the top lynch candidate for D3. What were we supposed to discuss? How Lvdr didn't post and how I had to read 80 pages to get caught up? This part is a little OMGUS-y, but it's a ridiculous claim that can't be supported in any way. It casts dispersions on me when I haven't done anything. He was attempting to find scummy behaviour where there was none, and distract the town with it. Again, I was assuming that mafia had a vig. I also said later that I was wrong for thisI apologize that this is appearing so late. I had to attend class and then ride the bus home. It takes forever <.< ##Vote Z-BosoN I urge you to read everything instead of nitpicking things that could make me suspicious in your narrow little view. Half the stuff I've already explained. Don't bother me with shit cases please. You only show you are biased when making cases and can't read He didn't vote the guy that flipped town so he is scum?
Didn't say he was scum, said it made me suspicious. Also, I agree that I am playing extremely bad in a sense that you can easily find things in my filter. I don't pause and think about every little detail I write. In the sense of actually doing shit, I'm doing a much better job than you.
Let me make some things clear here if we want to win this. First off:
THOU SHALT NOT SHEEP!
Forumite's case was brought by toad and hopeless. Toad's was a meta read. The rest was just stupid dumb sheeping. I hope that at least his death can make you realize why sheeping is bad. What did we learn with this lynch? absolutely nothing. Why? Because Forumite's case was extremely weak. You guys overlooked real standing cases on mav, Bill Murray, and some pre-existing ones on gravan and ShiaoPi, which actually had real arguments, and not the "He looks suspicious and doesn't make reads" garbage I've ranted so much about.
As much as you felt Forumite was scum, it couldn't have been more than a "feeling" he was scum, just how forumite, despite all I've said, had a dumb "feeling" I was scum and would not let it go, despite there being much better lynches.
Now we are still stuck with the BM case, with an increasingly suspicious Toad, and with tons of lurkers just reading and having fun in the scum QT.
Scum are having the time of their lives with this, they don't even have to bother with making cases. And are just laying back and chillin. So I will propose the following. Some of you haters will not like this, but think about it one bit and see it makes sense.
THOU SHALT NOT LYNCH ACTIVE PLAYERS!
Of course, this being namely me. We're starting to get into a bad position where we cannot afford to make baseless lynches. I'm posting a lot, and I don't think whether a post will make me look suspicious or not, but either way I'm actually trying to scumhunt. If I indeed am scum, then keeping me alive is actually great, because I will make interactions with a bunch of people, with my scumbuddies, and blues will eventually find out later on. And once that happens my filter will become a pool of gold.
I am not scum, however, and I would like to focus on actually making decent reads and going after decent targets with real evidence on them, not just the superficial crap I'm getting handed to me and the weak of a case that foru had. Keep in mind that scum want me dead, and will support making cases on me, so don't get easily swayed in this regard.
I've given good reason to stop with these "cases" against me, considering both me being scum and me being townie. Why am I doing this? As townie, it's because I want to scumhunt without having to keep defending myself. If I am scum, I'm playing very stupidly, as it is much much easier to sit and lurk, and I will also be giving extra evidence through my filter, the more I post. Mafia gains nothing in stalling my death.
And once again, as this bears repeating:
THOU SHALT NOT SHEEP!
Keywords: LOGIC. REASON. ARGUMENTS. MAKES SENSE. Taboo: SEEMS. SCUMMY. SUSPICIOUS. WAY HE'S BEEN ACTING.
Now please let us get our heads straight.
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Now that that's out of the way, I will go over some filters before the night is done.
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Also, with mav's latest posts, I have a townie read off of him. Regarding the points I had on him, I'll go with bad townie who's coming around instead of scum. This, too, because I was about to add that Shiaopi seems like the best lynch at the moment, and saw his above post.
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@mkfuba I was basing myself on imallinson's post:
On September 09 2012 06:42 imallinson wrote: I've been out all day and caught up with the thread on the bus home. The day is almost over so sorry if this is a bit hasty. I'm not buying BKE's watcher claim.
First a few assumptions I'm making: 1) Mafia has one vig thus had effectively three kp night one not including GK's bomb. 2) Mafia used all their kp. Someone suggested they saved some to out blues but that seems like it would only work if pressure was being put on that blue so I think it's unlikely. 3) Mafia did not shoot Ottox.
If BKE is watcher then GK must have bombed BM and shot BC without a double stack. Therefore we are missing two kp. The only way for this to happen is a combination of a medic/jailer getting a lucky save, a scum shot hit an assassin or the jailer rb'd a scum.
To me this seems very unlikely because BC seems like the better bomb target and barring a medic saving BKE he should be dead. Also missing two kp feels really fishy to me. One getting blocked I could understand but two seems a little far fetched given the information available at the time (that no one apart from the two dead people seemed that town).
Since I don't know this setup, I just went with his assumption.
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On September 12 2012 23:04 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 22:50 Kreb wrote:On September 12 2012 22:43 imallinson wrote:On September 12 2012 22:35 Kreb wrote: Is there any chance we could get a comment from Toad before its time for night kills? If not it might be good idea for doctors/jailkeepers to move their protection around to people who seem to be more similiar to what hapa/austin was. I imagine theres been quite a few people protecting Toad so far, and that could be up for discussion.
Also note: Im not suspicious of him (well, not more than the paranioa he pretty much asked for us to have regarding him :p), but since he was took the biggest part in the mislynch, it would be nice to know what he has to say about it and what he wants the next move to be. Theres already been two people throwing suspicions his way (Forumite, Grush). Just because he led a mislynch doesn't make him less town. Town players are perfectly capable of being wrong. If we start suspecting everyone who pushes a mislynch we won't have anyone pushing lynches at all. Of course. But given the fact that he pretty much told us we should be paranoid as fuck about him (which I very much am) due to how supposedly good he was as mafia, I at least think we could demand a comment. As I said Im not suspicious, Im just paranoid. I trusted him for this lynch, that trust took a bit of a hit. Im wondering if I should renew the trust or not. hey am back, haven't read a thing yet and yeah I agree with what you "proposed" although it's for a different reason. Only got like half an hour time until I've got to leave again but I'll have time later on (like 4 hours prior to deadline) to post something. However reasoning for medics considering me: I don't think medics / Jailers should be protecting me as well. Right now there's pretty much no way mafia is going to shoot me because people are getting paranoid about me. Mafia are probably not going to shoot me because they want that paranoia. Yeah I could be saying that as mafia as well giving an explanation why I survived yet another night but it really works both ways.For all I care, if you're paranoid just track me if you think I'm mafia and frankly I'd actually say that already happened given my "most people are afraid about me" post either n1 or n2 anyways. Of course if you're a tracker it's up to you when you want to track me because if I was mafia I could just tell people to track me and be the guy who's not delivering a KP (assuming more than 2 mafia alive). So waiting until we've got rid of another mafia might be the way to go for trackers, but it's up to you, I've got nothing to hide :p
That's bullshit. If you were actually any real danger to mafia based on your scumhunting abilities you would certainly meet the same fate BC and DrH had, no matter the amount of "paranoia" you claim. If you are indeed not mafia and you don't get shot, that's because either mafia doesn't feel threatened by you and it's good keeping you alive, or because you got shot n1 as an assassin (which I'll assume is not what happened). You made one case on forumite in N2 and pretty much did nothing for the rest of day 3. Mafia isn't scared of you, period.
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@Rewok- You made a huge lists of null reads in D1. Can you make one again? I'm sure right now they can't be all null.
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@imallinson What do you make of Gravan?
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Guys, I will have to go soon, and won't be able to post through the night. However, I don't want to die tonight, because I'm starting to get some decent scum reads, so I'm actually gonna claim here.
I am a Mad Hatter
And I absolutely know Toad is scum. His goodbye post, claiming that he is townie in supposedly a "Good-bye" post. His disappearance in day 3. His switch from grush + gravan to me and BM out of nowhere. His reluctance to post in D3. His flimsiness on forumite. His bullshit straight above. I'm not gonna bother making a whole case on this, because there is one thing that makes me go from 80% scum to 100%. I'm not gonna go into details, but if you want you can find it out for yourselves. I did a SHITTON of reading on N1 and N2, reading as carefully as I possibly could, turning on my hidden message finder mode. It is insanely subtle, but fuck yea, I saw it. Anyways, hats off to you wrote it, but what I don't understand is why you didn't go after him, knowing what you knew. When both me and hapa were on his tail after that post, you could have very well given us support... So yea, trust me when I say this, toad is absolutely 100% scum.
Anyways, I've always thought him scum ever since that N1 post, and my bomb has always been, and will be tonight as well, on him.
Thus, I am at no fear of death, because mafia wouldn't make this 1:1 trade, not in a million years.
Of course Toad is going to throw is bullshit at us once again, saying how I'm making this up, how that's impossible because he's townie, etc... but trust me when you say this - he's in fact bullshitting us, he's scum. If you want to confirm it for yourselves, just read the posts in N1/N2 super-carefully, and you'll see what I mean, especially in them nested quotes.
To the rest of you little lurking scum shitheads, I'll find you.
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Nope, if I get killed so will you. I'm certain you are mafia. I found something quite conclusive. If it's a scumslip, why am I addressing the person who wrote it? He knows who he is, and by now he realized as well that you are mafia. Don't waste tracks on me as my claim is legit, and Toad will die. But should a tracker not feel comfortable with this, go right ahead, the bomb is already on you, SCUM! Again, I won't get shot, because you are scum.
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Anyways, I have to go. Interested to see what's gonna happen. Be back later tonight. Cheers PS: my claim is legit, don't listen to this monster.
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All right, I in fact didn't have to go and wanted to try to get some actual information, because it's pissing me off how much this game is lame and lacks any real info, and I think I'd die tonight anyways. Even my case on BM had one thing wrong (he did in fact claim austin was vig during N1, and not after it, like I said. Got confused on the time stamps.). Funnily enough, no one noticed this, because no one actually gave a shit, because this town IS TOO FUCKING SHEEPY. Anyways. There are a few cases here depending on the outcome of the kill. Here we go:
First off, I lied completely about seeing the crumb. Sorry if any of you actually tried finding something lololol I did in fact read very carefully, but didn't find shit.
I assume there is a medic, and I am also heavily dependent on medic's/jk's ability to make decisions. I also presume that Toad is town.
All kills go through
1) Toad is town and got saved by medic Then medic will know I am full of shit and will have sent his save on me, because he knows they tried to kill Toad, knows he's innocent, and will not risk mafia getting two active townies dead. However, since all kills went through, either mafia suspected this to be a trap and this failed miserably, or medic decided to take the night off and I actually died.
2) Toad is mafia Then medic didn't save him, and will not protect me. However, I will not die because they will not risk losing a scum. Since all kills went through, medic failed on the save.
One kill is missing
1) Toad is town and got saved by medic Same thing. However, mafia fell for my lame little trap and decided to shoot me, with medic saving me. If this happens, we are in starlight. Both me and toad will become confirmed townies, medic will know so, and mafia will lose 1 kp.
2) Toad is mafia Medic luckily saved someone else. I live.
Important Conclusions
If I die, then Toad is not Mafia, unless mafia took my bluff or thought I could get Toad lynched anyways, which I don't find likely. So, go with him being 97% town/assassin.
If I don't die and one kill goes through, medic saved me and neither nor toad are mafia. If I don't die and both kills go through, we learn shit, because either mafia suspected a trap or toad is in fact scum.
Also, I am in fact Mad Hatter, but my bomb is with someone else, surprise surprise!
I write this post before I send in the claiming one, just to see if the plan has any bearing. I'm going to try to send the claiming one at a time to both get the medic to do the right thing, and for mafia to not have enough time to discuss this. I'm thinking around 1h-2h before the deadline. This is a rather weak trap, but I guess it's better than nothing. At least hopefully the trackers/watchers don't waste themselves on me. In case we don't actually learn anything, I will still be alive and have more time to think, so yea. And if I do die, at least you guys can sleep better at night that Toad is not Mafia.
Since I'm not actually gone, down here is where I'll be responding everything that came AFTER my post, as well as my thoughts.
I'm counting heavily on medic saving me. I don't know if you thought of this when you said:
On September 13 2012 05:50 Toadesstern wrote: Screw the watcher we need a Vig here.
Just Shoot Z-Boson tonight.
If he's really stupid enough to be a Mad Hatter and claim like that I'm dead anyways because Mafia will shoot him to get 2 kills out of 1 KP. If he's not he's fakeclaiming that on purpose because he's mafia and wants to play a wifom game because obviously he's not going to get shot, which will result in me not being blown up.
Either way it's a perfect scenario for mafia thanks to Z-Boson. Worst case: He really is a stupid townie he's dead by now and wether or not he gets single-stacked or doublestacked really isn't that much of a difference. All we lose is a single bullet while the townie was dead anyways Best case: You kill a mafia
You really can't go wrong on this one if you're a vig. So please no protection on him and if we still got a vig just shoot him.
Because if a medic really did indeed save you, then he will fucking absolutely know that he has to save me. Unless he thinks that I am mafia, which screws everything apart. I certainly hope he won't risk me actually being a mad hatter.
Also, this response is perfect, if the medic knows his shit, I think. Because he will know he has to save me (omg I hope he doesn't think it makes sense for me to do this as mafia, sticking my neck out like a boss...), and because you are basically telling mafia that I won't be saved and urging them to shoot me, in a way. Nice job if this was intentional lol.
This served at least to get some info. fuba now is almost definitely not scum due to his post. I have reason to think that Gravan and DP are not scum, less sure on DP. This brings the list of scum to grush, mementoss, BM, maverick, Shiaopi, imallinson SS Rewok, S&B, Kreb, Hopeless, out of which (i assume) three of them are most likely scum. Right now I'm going with imallinson and Shiaopi, as my top scumreads.
Omg I love toad for not considering a medic save. I think his reaction to my post was townie enough, and quite fast.
Also, Mafia would most likely not want to answer my post right away. I'm sure they didn't expect this and are probably trying to discuss with themselves what they should do. This makes shiaopi and imallinson ever more suspicious, granted imallinson showed he was in thread, when I questioned him about Gravan:
On September 13 2012 03:04 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 02:43 Z-BosoN wrote: @imallinson What do you make of Gravan? I was really suspicious of him night 1, he was one of my top scum reads due then. I kind of forgot about him after that because he started actually contributing a bit and the BKE case was much stronger. The way he dealt with the day 3 voting has made me suspicious of him again. Before the start of day 3 he says how much he dislikes the meta arguments + Show Spoiler +On September 10 2012 03:52 Gravan wrote: There is a lot of "in this game x player played like this" or, "y is a veteran, therefore the following is probable...". While I think these are fine as supporting arguments (since past tendencies/experience are relevant things to consider) I feel like all this talk of veterans and meta play is clouding and overtaking what people have actually said and how people have actually been playing. . The first thing we get day 3 is this + Show Spoiler +On September 12 2012 04:54 Gravan wrote: At this point, my viewpoint is as follows (on the big topics):
Bill Murray is still suspicious, but, really, who the fuck knows? Z-Boson is highly suspicious.
Forumite is highly suspicious, and very shifty. For somebody who is posting somewhat regularily, he hasn't done too much to defend himself other than point as many fingers as he can as quickly as he can - something that seems really scummy.
I wish we had another day to talk about this, heh.
##Vote Forumite. On September 12 2012 04:56 Gravan wrote: To be a bit more clear:
Bill Murray's posting is very difficult to read, and he claims to have had more knowledge than he really ought to have had. That said, he has apparently been playing mafia for a while so he could also have just made a good read.
Z-Boson is far too defensive for my liking - it seems like he thinks that every post that isn't in agreement with him, or that pulls the discussion away from his posts, is targeted at him. which seems to be the opposite of what he said in the previous post. If you look at what BM, Z-Boson and Forumite actually posted this game BM is by far the most scummy looking. It's only if you look at the meta argument that this changes. Yet Gravan votes for Forumite anyway. I look at that and see someone who tried to look like they were contributing in the first post then trying to hide and sheep the popular vote in the second which seems awfully scummy.
Of course he will claim he just left or whatever. Nah.
Man, I sure hope the blues here don't actually think I would make this stick my neck out this much as scum. I want the medic to save me rofl...
Also, since now I think I may actually die (why did you call the vig shot on me?? If I'm telling the truth you are a dead man toad) I also bothered to include some of my thoughts in this post. Read the nested quote, the bolded part. Shiaopi actually answered throwing suspicion, and answering Shiaopi's question. This would go along with the predictions I made here:
On September 12 2012 08:04 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 07:18 grush57 wrote:On September 12 2012 07:13 Z-BosoN wrote:What a bad case, has so many wrong information on it, and much of it I've already gone over. Makes me HIGHLY suspicious of you for coming with it so late. On September 12 2012 06:48 mkfuba07 wrote:My vote is going to go to Z-BosoN. There are just too many aspects of his play that rub me the wrong way. BKE played awfullyFollowing the BKE lynch, ZB's response was to point out how it was the veterans' fault because they wouldn't answer his question regarding whether or not there were likely to be multiple watchers. Nope, wrong. I already explained this, not going over that again. Keep in mind that Toad actually did address his question in this post. missed this. big deal..He also points out how he would have constantly repeated the question if he hadn't been forced to keep defending himself "unnecessarily". He points the finger at the remaining vets, says how townish he would have been had he been under less pressure to defend himself, and then martyrs himself by saying that he shouldn't have put up with the silly cases against him. All of this means absolutely nothing. Odds are, scummies will be the first ones to react negatively to this post. Keep this in mind. His entire massive post seems like a waste of time to me, but it's clear that he's trying to turn it into townie points for himself. I already said, I thought I was onto something at the time. Not going to repeat this, read my response to imallinson's caseFollowing the "vets are all suspicious now" paragraphs, he tells austinmcc to save his case against [him] for day 3, should [they] both live. He then elaborates on what he *would have thought* if austin's case *had come a little bit later.* Not only is he trying to completely stiffle a case being brought against him in order to pursue the illogical suspicions of all of the remaining vets, but, again, this entire section says nothing whatsoever. I expect fuba to react, but I have a town read on him. If this would have happened, then I would have found you scummy. Don't you think I could have found you scummy? But really, you're just thick. I still stand by what I said. Wasting time discussing me at night would prove useless. Since the odds were high that one of the vets would die, we should just have tried to get as much input from them as possible. I gave my thoughts on why I thought this was a good choice, but you choose to ignore them.Then there's his death post. Another post that I felt was unnecessary. So yea, whoever has the weakest vote on me and reacts negatively here has a very high chance of being scum. He says that he thinks Hapa is town because Hapa thought he was town, and then points out how what Hapa said could just be a scumplay trying to gain townie points. I don't even know what we're supposed to have taken from that, but all it did for me was plant the idea of Hapa swindling town points out of our pockets using ZB's sterling reputation. It feels like he's subtly boosting his own towncred while calling Hapa's into question. No. I said that hapa is almost surely townie UNLESS I die and he doesn't, and I explained why.He then says that he didn't like Toad's good-bye post. ... Why are you writing a good-bye post if you don't like that someone else did it? Yes, that's exactly what I said. I don't like good-bye posts. I didn't even say why I thought his good-bye post was scummy, and neither did hapa. We just don't like good-bye posts. What a dumb point.He follows it up by saying that if Forumite flips red, then Toad *might* be confirmed town. He also points out how very good at bussing Toad is. Again, this entire paragraph tells us nothing. As does this one. Actually, no, mine actually says that it didn't look like a bus, so if forumite was scum, toad would not likely have been scum.Finally, we get to the "Lurkers" section, where he points fingers at everyone else in the game. He also repeats the fact that the scum vigi hasn't used his shots yet. First of all, he seems too certain of there being a scum vigi. He mentions it repeatedly. I honestly thought there was guaranteed. Also, the first one to say this as an assumption was imallinsonOn top of town not knowing if one exists, there's nothing we can gain from that reasoning. There's too much wifom involved. This is another case of ZB trying to follow a line of reasoning that doesn't help town (just like his irrational obsession with the number of watchers in the game) and only wastes time. Wastes time in regards to what? Sheeping? I'm constantly trying to figure stuff out. I don't pause and think if I will look suspicious or not if I find something. I've made bad points and I've made good points. On top of that, he calls for someone who hasn't even been a part of the game yet to be the top lynch candidate for D3. What were we supposed to discuss? How Lvdr didn't post and how I had to read 80 pages to get caught up? This part is a little OMGUS-y, but it's a ridiculous claim that can't be supported in any way. It casts dispersions on me when I haven't done anything. He was attempting to find scummy behaviour where there was none, and distract the town with it. Again, I was assuming that mafia had a vig. I also said later that I was wrong for thisI apologize that this is appearing so late. I had to attend class and then ride the bus home. It takes forever <.< ##Vote Z-BosoN I urge you to read everything instead of nitpicking things that could make me suspicious in your narrow little view. Half the stuff I've already explained. Don't bother me with shit cases please. You only show you are biased when making cases and can't read He didn't vote the guy that flipped town so he is scum? Didn't say he was scum, said it made me suspicious. Also, I agree that I am playing extremely bad in a sense that you can easily find things in my filter. I don't pause and think about every little detail I write. In the sense of actually doing shit, I'm doing a much better job than you.
Let me make some things clear here if we want to win this. First off: THOU SHALT NOT SHEEP! Forumite's case was brought by toad and hopeless. Toad's was a meta read. The rest was just stupid dumb sheeping. I hope that at least his death can make you realize why sheeping is bad. What did we learn with this lynch? absolutely nothing. Why? Because Forumite's case was extremely weak. You guys overlooked real standing cases on mav, Bill Murray, and some pre-existing ones on gravan and ShiaoPi, which actually had real arguments, and not the "He looks suspicious and doesn't make reads" garbage I've ranted so much about. As much as you felt Forumite was scum, it couldn't have been more than a "feeling" he was scum, just how forumite, despite all I've said, had a dumb "feeling" I was scum and would not let it go, despite there being much better lynches. Now we are still stuck with the BM case, with an increasingly suspicious Toad, and with tons of lurkers just reading and having fun in the scum QT. Scum are having the time of their lives with this, they don't even have to bother with making cases. And are just laying back and chillin. So I will propose the following. Some of you haters will not like this, but think about it one bit and see it makes sense. THOU SHALT NOT LYNCH ACTIVE PLAYERS! Of course, this being namely me. We're starting to get into a bad position where we cannot afford to make baseless lynches. I'm posting a lot, and I don't think whether a post will make me look suspicious or not, but either way I'm actually trying to scumhunt. If I indeed am scum, then keeping me alive is actually great, because I will make interactions with a bunch of people, with my scumbuddies, and blues will eventually find out later on. And once that happens my filter will become a pool of gold. I am not scum, however, and I would like to focus on actually making decent reads and going after decent targets with real evidence on them, not just the superficial crap I'm getting handed to me and the weak of a case that foru had. Keep in mind that scum want me dead, and will support making cases on me, so don't get easily swayed in this regard. I've given good reason to stop with these "cases" against me, considering both me being scum and me being townie. Why am I doing this? As townie, it's because I want to scumhunt without having to keep defending myself. If I am scum, I'm playing very stupidly, as it is much much easier to sit and lurk, and I will also be giving extra evidence through my filter, the more I post. Mafia gains nothing in stalling my death. And once again, as this bears repeating: THOU SHALT NOT SHEEP! Keywords: LOGIC. REASON. ARGUMENTS. MAKES SENSE. Taboo: SEEMS. SCUMMY. SUSPICIOUS. WAY HE'S BEEN ACTING. Now please let us get our heads straight.
Of course this doesn't mean much, but, again, better than nothing. Also, I felt Toad's response was incredibly townie. If he's scum, then he's sure fooled me... consider him town.
Anyways, it's close to the deadline, whatever happens, at least this shitty boring game is more fun now
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GG
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Henceforth, I will strive forevermore towards a BM/grush day one policy-lynch.
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Well played DP, and well played Shiaopi Shiaopi's endgame was incredibly fantastic, great job!
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Reading the scum qt, my mad hatter idea was not that bad actually As I had suspected, I was gonna get shot anyways. At least my death would confirm toad town/assassin, and in case a medic did indeed save toad, I would have gotten saved.
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only downside is wasting trackers/watchers on me so I dunno if I'd do it again lol
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On September 24 2012 07:39 Bill Murray wrote: I was obviously voting DP, but I thought I'd need to convince him I would vote you, which I spent hours doing. lol
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problem with darthpunk saying he was too lazy to make a case is because everyone was too fucking lazy to make a case... I don't see how he could have been pegged as scum up until day 3.
o that's right, I can edit now
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Well, I probably wouldn't have, but shiaopi did >.<
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