TL Mafia LVII
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BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
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BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
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BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
On August 28 2012 00:02 marvellosity wrote: but this name is a pile of crap compared to DrH :< they're both shitty usernames, i'm not very creative | ||
BlackMamba24
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BlackMamba24
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On August 30 2012 07:43 goodkarma wrote: lol I'm not saying I expect that everyone playing this is going to be a mafia superstar. But getting a chance to play with some of the best players in TL mafia should be a great learning opportunity . you won't learn anything as long as me and bill murray are in this game together | ||
BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
On August 31 2012 15:29 Bill Murray wrote: lord, please let me be mafia with doctorhelvetica thank you just do what i say i hate it when people don't let me have 100% control over everything | ||
BlackMamba24
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I'm joking | ||
BlackMamba24
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BlackMamba24
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BlackMamba24
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On September 03 2012 13:46 Bill Murray wrote: completely disagree with this. town circle in this setup? OpZ and I had one, as did rasta/foolishness... and that's how town won this setup previously It's been a major failure every game I've been in that had it and it (like policy lynches) just gives mafia something to talk about to appear useful when it actually isn't useful | ||
BlackMamba24
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If a town plan arises I'm not gonna be a part of it but I advice blue players to use their own judgment. Never lynch someone just because they wouldn't claim to the town leader or whatever, that's asinine, asiten, asieleven, asitwelve, etc. Don't bother asking me for my reads because I will never post a list of reads and I hate it when other people post "reads". Thanks. | ||
BlackMamba24
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yeah, no town circles or everyone claim to/protect/check "this guy" blue roles be on your own or everyones gonna get blown the fuck up, that's a very powerful role | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 04 2012 07:59 slOosh wrote: What do you mean by "reads"? Are you talking specifically about general lists opposed to focused discussion on a certain player? Yes, reads as opposed to cases | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 04 2012 08:09 DoYouHas wrote: Well, as per usual I like lynching lurkers day 1 if a scummier option doesn't present itself. Blues should do as they see fit. Discussion in that area only gives scum more points of reference for blue hunting. In the past L has assured me that this is always the correct course of action, sooo ##Vote: Bill Murray Why Bill Murray as opposed to any other lurker? Because he posted 20 minutes before the game started? I checked the thread 5 minutes before it started then went downstairs to do something else. I just don't see the point of voting this early when a scummier option is pretty much sure to present itself. Meek and apologetic tone, parroting posts other people have already made, etc. ##Vote DoYouHas That'll do for now. | ||
BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
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BlackMamba24
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BlackMamba24
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On September 04 2012 09:27 Forumite wrote: Sorry, I should have been more specific. I wondered about this phrase: What is there to explain? There's a difference between lynching someone for not backing themselves up after they're caught lying or whatever and lynching someone because they don't trust the town circle. | ||
BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
On September 04 2012 11:03 goodkarma wrote: Hey all A couple general observations for what I've just read: -I don't follow some of the voting that's already taken place in this thread. I don't get why some of us feel the need to vote for each other this early with little to no information to back a vote up. Imho, we should be working to establish a strong, pro-town atmosphere just as much as we are to find a lynch candidate for today. -I remember Hapa saying this once before: lynching one of the most vocal members day one is typically not the best idea. Looking back at how NMM XXIV turned out (Shady's lynch), others here should agree with me that there's at least some evidence to support this. Town loses so much more from a mislynch of a vocal town than of a semi-lurker, and, at least in my experience, you're much more likely to lynch a town than a scum when you target the most vocal day one player. I'm not going to assume that sloosh is town at this point, but the effort he's taken to pressure others with his posts is definitely conducive towards a pro-town atmosphere. Along those lines, I feel that Z-Boson's early vote on sloosh could very well be scum motivated. I disagree that sloosh's discussion is unhelpful. Maybe scum or town could pressure people like sloosh has, but he's pushing for more information so he's not stuck making a weak case against others, as Z-Boson has with sloosh: ##FoS: Z-Boson Can you explain why it's scum motivated? Why does scum want sloosh out of the game when all he's doing is arguing with Toadesstern and asking dumb questions | ||
BlackMamba24
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BlackMamba24
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Nosy Neighbor makes a lot of sense as a scum fakeclaim it's probably what I would claim if I had to and thinking about SNB from Death Note mafia I have no reason to implicitly trust mattchew but the fact that you're throwing suspicion on him this early and this stupidly is completely consistent with your scum meta so bye | ||
BlackMamba24
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If BC can point out how he knows 100% Mattchew is lying then he'd have a case but he won't even say it it's just a bad scum play, lynch him | ||
BlackMamba24
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BlackMamba24
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2. whether or not it makes sense as a fakeclaim does not indicate his alignment whatsoever. your case is that you know 100% he is lying, ok and on what grounds can you support that? you haven't shown any so far bad bc | ||
BlackMamba24
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so no it is not 100% accurate, that's just your guess based on knowledge of past games. 2 easy solutions to this question: 1 . someone ask palmar 2. other nosy neighbors claim | ||
BlackMamba24
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if you're so right just point out the thing in the setup, go ahead, make a quote don't play this bullshit "haha just figure it out for yourself and you'll see im right!" | ||
BlackMamba24
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The role PMs will only include your role name. Refer to this post for information on how your role works. Vanilla Townie You are a regular townie, your only weapons are your voice and your vote. Nosy Neighbour You are a Nosy Neighbour. This means that you are basically vanilla town, except every night you will visit a random player in the game. You will not know whom you visited. go ahead point it out | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 04 2012 11:57 Mattchew wrote: he's trying to say he pm'd palmar now he's making up fake scum motivations for your claim not even really reading your post just cherrypicking and trying to push his fake case. hes scum. | ||
BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
On September 04 2012 12:00 goodkarma wrote: @BlackMamba: First, I'd like to specify that asking questions that get others to discuss their reads on other players, or to defend themselves for something suspicious said in their posts, is not "dumb." I in fact find it suspicious from a townie perspective to call many of the lines of questioning recently presented in this thread as "dumb," since so far most of it has produced productive discussion. From a scum perspective, though, a statement like this does make sense. Scum has the knowledge of who is and isn't scum, so to them watching people they know to be town attacking each other could look pretty "dumb." Second, at the time I posted that sloosh was one of the most outspoken people in the game. From a scum perspective, it would make sense to remove an outspoken person day one. Especially if said person was furthering discussion by poking and prodding others with a lot of questions. While we're at it, I'd like to ask about this: What's with the vote for BloodyCobbler? He's pretty much a lurker at this point, but you're voting him for non-policy reasons... This feels like a scum getting behind a safe lurker lynch vote, at least at the time you wrote it (it just came to my attention as I'm about to post this that another page of postings have taken place, and cobbler has just made another post...)... My guess is this is a pressure vote, but I would appreciate a bit more of an explanation if you could provide it. because BC is full of shit and also making up stuff mattchew never said i'll never policy vote, i hate even reading the words next to each other i respectfully disagree about sloosh and how productive he has been but i'm not going to argue about it. i won't say anything about my read on him or toadesstern right now. hope that satisfies you | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 04 2012 12:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Yes, the liar is town and the not liar is scum. Drh Logic ftw. Now people know why I play less, because logic doesn't exist here. You are right, I did misread his post for that I apologize, i skimmed saw what I thought was bs and posted on it. He still clearly lied. Give me a town motivation for lying at this stage in the game drH. Please tell me what a townie gets from lying about his role this early into the game. here we go prove he's lying or shut up and get lynched if it's so obvious why have you gone this long without providing any evidence or any information from the setup at all that proves he is lying 100% as you claim why is it that no one believes you if it's that obvious. we must just all be "stupid" right. stop pretending to be frustrated, if we're dumb explain it to us and play to win. | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 04 2012 12:05 BloodyC0bbler wrote: No mafia will shoot a nosy neighbor and any vig who does is stupid, blue trying to look vanilla would claim vanilla. You don't claim miller. Miller is a mafia claim to explain why they do shit at night. Pre claiming is to add "legitimacy to it" i agree with this i'm surprised you didn't point out why this was the good mafia claim instead of making stuff up about how he's trying to draw out blue claims can you prove he's lying now or are you done making a fool of yourself | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 04 2012 12:17 Mattchew wrote: this is what BC is trying to say are you all this dumb? right, so if he gets the information from the mod we all should be able to do that as well i mean if i pm the host and get the answer that nosy neighbor isn't aware then i'll be voting for you too so | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 04 2012 12:17 DarthPunk wrote: Well Then, Provide evidence that is not based on assuming this game operates in the same manner that previous games have. @BlackMamba I think that BC is wrong to misrepresent something as factual when it clearly is not. But that is not alignment indicative necessarily. He seems more like a townie than anything. If this is scum BC trying to get a Mislynch day one it has backfired spectacularly and would even more so when Mattchew flipped. It would be an extremely short sighted play. he's misrepresenting him intentionally, that's scummy | ||
BlackMamba24
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BlackMamba24
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On September 04 2012 12:47 DarthPunk wrote: Conversely what would a townie gain from lying about Being a Nosy Neighbour? This argument works both ways and thus has little value. If NN are not self aware it looks pretty bad for Mattchew. and vice-versa. Town is actually in a great spot now because there has been a major split and the fact that no one is backing BC up by now has made me feel suspicious. If we can confirm this objectively in a matter of time, I think quite a few scum will be getting the noose. | ||
BlackMamba24
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BlackMamba24
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On September 04 2012 13:01 DarthPunk wrote: Vice versa somewhat. I think it looks worse for Mattchew to be caught lying than for BC to have pushed for a lynch he obviously 100% believes in. One of them is lying. I've come to suspect it's probably Mattchew but there's no grey area for either of them at this point. | ||
BlackMamba24
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BlackMamba24
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no one needs to know your "reads". no one cares or should care. | ||
BlackMamba24
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But usually players that come out of newbie games seem to always do this same thing so idrk i'm just waiting until this mattchew/bc gets some objectivity on my end. anyway don't post anymore unless you have an actual argument or some pressure to apply. can you explain how a giant list of empty reads and summaries is helpful to anyone | ||
BlackMamba24
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some vigilante hit this dude tonight | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 04 2012 13:17 Maverick32x wrote: Hey guys- got a chance to catch up and I have a couple thoughts. First- Not totally comfortable voting Mattchew at this point.. I understand the potential for lying about the role claim.. and I'm not a big fan of role claiming in general... HOWEVER- I'd like to reiterate BlackMamba's post that said something to the tune of "ITT- Townies arguing with Townies" because I find that people are so quick to blame each other for stupid stuff that we end up wasting the first couple days with literally zero reason for voting someone besides "They drew a picture".... That being said- I'd like to draw a little bit of attention to the first voter for whom I feel like I can make an actual observation on- Toadesstern. The reason I want to focus on that is just because of the speed at which he strikes out just makes me wonder why that's beneficial from a town perspective? And I'm just wondering if he just wanted to try to promote chaos right away?? Also- consistently attacking other posters seems to be a trend.... this kid is scum if mattchew is | ||
BlackMamba24
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BlackMamba24
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On September 04 2012 18:52 imallinson wrote: Morning all. Just finished reading through the thread. I was thinking about whether Matt or BC were scum but Palmar answered that question for us. Obviously ##Vote:Mattchew. So now we know Mattchew is scum we go onto his scumbuddies. BlackMamba is a fairly obvious target because he defended Matt pretty hard and went after BC who, barring a crazy scum tactic, is town. I'd like to hear from him now that we know Matt's claim was fake. The other person I thought was really suspicious was Rewok because his one real post was the most useless shit I've ever seen. There is no point in posting reads on everyone if that read is, in all cases, null. He even goes out of his way to explain away the uselessness of his post: I would like to see him say something actually substantial on someone. hear what? I rescinded my vote and was basically waiting for palmar to pm me back to let me know whether nosy neighbours know their role or not. i assume BC knew about it from asking palmar privately in the first place. i was never defending mattchew anyway, only saying that i had no reason to believe BC until he could prove mattchew was lying which didn't happen until just now anyway so it's nice of you to pop in after the fact and throw some suspicion on me for it don't be silly | ||
BlackMamba24
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Why would anyone feel the need to justify not voting for someone that basically no one was voting for unless they knew he was guilty? He's defending himself for not voting for Mattchew, but why? There's no bandwagon. BC was railing on about it but no one believed him because he was the only person at that time with mod confirmation about the nosy neighbor which the OP was vague about. Then after all that, all that business of me and BC arguing, Mattchew's claim coming under suspicion, he only has one sentence to say about it and then wants to talk about Toadesstern of all people? And he doesn't even make a commitment to a read or a vote or anything it reeks | ||
BlackMamba24
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BlackMamba24
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1) never outright accuses BC of lying and doesn't OMGUS at all, takes passive role in defending himself. result of implicit guilt? 2) hints at the fact that he might be blue without outright claiming. if he has reason to suspect BC is right he knows he's getting lynched and needs to claim right away. scum, unlike someone who is actually blue, need a considerable amount of time to think about a second claim and plan with the mafia, his posts during the time i was arguing with BC read to me like he was stalling while trying to think of something 3) by saying that BC must have PM'd Palmar he's basically admitting that BC is right that he was lying but yet does not actually defend himself for it which seems tbh really strange to me from both a town and scum motivation. he says "devils advocate" when he comes up with a town motivated scenario for lying as though he's trying to just tell BC what he is doing so he will drop it i guess it comes down to what mattchew claims now if he flips blue then that doesn't tell me anything about anyone else here really except for people who didn't say anything about mattchew until after palmar confirmed the bit about the nosy neighbor so i guess we will just have to take it as a lesson for blues from now on to be a bit more careful i really just don't understand #3 but i have seen scum kinda give up when they get caught in lies before or martyr themselves so maybe it isn't so strange after all | ||
BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
1. Mattchew is an assassin and the scum are the people who came in after the fact or way after the fact and voted without saying a lot. They didn't think critically about the situation and say things like "well he lied....so ##vote mattchew". 2. Mattchew is scum and people who defended him today (post-Palmar) and people who come in way way way after the fact with more empty posts and bullshit (cough...grush57...cough) need to be tracked or vig'd. If Mattchew flips red then Ottoxlol needs to die tonight and so does either Miltonkram or Maverick. The chances that the whole scum team is pinned Day 1 doubtlessly? Pretty slim. In a situation like this, I think at least one will go rogue or try to buddy up to me. I am pretty wary of Bill Murray so there's that. Not really useful but: I think Rewok could be an assassin, there are no town motivations to his posts whatsoever but not really any scum ones because they are too bad. I don't feel he has any town motivations but I also sense little to no direction in his posting. Assassins you might want to hit him. Same thing with any super lurkers or people like Gravan. By the way: NEVER LYNCH ASSASSINS IF YOU"RE SURE THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE. One of the most frustrating games I've ever played was one where everyone wanted to lynch a confirmed assassin because "we lynch anyone not pro-town". No, we lynch SCUM and ONLY SCUM. I've read a little while writing this post so as an addendum, ottoxlol's early defense of mattchew basically comes down to some weak conditional things that I already said like "yeah he could be a tracker or something trying to blah blah blah" but the simplest answer is more often than right one. Maybe he is a dumb tracker or a dumb assassin, but the simpler answer is better. The fact that he isn't here defending himself well either speaks volumes. the less information he gives us, the better, right? Of all the things you could have said to defend him, the fact that he chose some weak hypothetical that I had already considered when voting for him is bullshit. Kill this kid if Matt flips red. | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 05 2012 07:19 Hopeless1der wrote: The whole point of his case is that you pushing DP wasn't a real scum read, it was errant Day 1 bullshit. Which most of the thread was at that point. I still think he's scummy because that's a shitty case at the time it arose, but it's reasonably consistent, despite the misinformation. Just like my early premature vote on Hapahauli in Death Note made me scum? It's not scummy. What's scummy, hapa, isn't his case, it's that he's avoiding talking about the relevant happenings in town and pointing out something completely different. Here's what happens when one scum has heat on him or one scum is majorly involved in some sort of town argument/drama: Little scum come out and say "oh, yeah this is interesting what's going on but look at random poster X, he did something kinda a little weird so we should lynch him instead!" And maybe it was a little weird. I personally don't like hapahauli's playstyle and it gave me the wrong impression of him in Death Note. A lot of people auto-assume I'm scum because I say policy lynches are stupid, I'll never vote for someone for lurking, I'll never post "reads", I don't answer peoples questions if I think they're dumb, etc. I think that Milton made a mistake worth looking into and if you couple that with the fact that he posted it how he did and when he did, yeah it's suspicious. I think vigilantes or trackers should take a serious look at this dude tonight. If Mattchew does flip blue or black or whatever though, then that means there isn't much of a case beyond someone made a kinda bad case or a mistake and that doesn't totally indicate alignment. Not enough to lynch him over all the shitstorm that will occur whenever mattchew flips what he does. | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 05 2012 09:11 BloodyC0bbler wrote: the biggest change I would make to this is. If its day 1 (like today) and your options are sure kill on assassin or random lynch on someone who could flip town (day 1 reasoning's for lynches usually aren't the best) then I'd take the assassin. Only reason for this is if you aren't sure on your lynch choice and the option is deff not a townie I would opt for that. I also think I know what game you are referencing. What do you think of the last page or two's worth of posts? There has been some moderately decentish talking compared to last night. Something seems really off about BM to me and it's giving me a bad feeling but I can't really justify it. I think he might be third-party. | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 05 2012 09:28 Hapahauli wrote: @ BM24 Does Ottoxlol's defense of Mattchew make him likely-mafia? While I consider his arguments insane (at best), I'd imagine that mafia are in full-bus mode on Mattchew no? I just don't see the mafia motive in going against the entire town to defend a guy who's basically confirmed scum. Regarding MiltonKram - I think the key difference between his case and your case in DN Mini (tunneling you for that long was a horrible play on my part) is the presence of misleading evidence. In the DN Mini, your case wasn't good (D1 Caveats of course) but it wasn't misleading. MiltonKram not only tried to point out a third party, but used false evidence. I think there's a high chance he's mafia. Now he could be a townie who made a bad play, but I find it unlikely given the content and timing of his suspicions. I also find it amusing that every time someone calls him out, he seems to fly into the thread, but is hush-hush otherwise. You'd be surprised. I've told scumteams to bus me before and then some dude just defends me out of nowhere. It could be bad town but the arguments are too bad to just ignore based on an argument like that. anyway @ottox Scum motivations for claiming miller/nosy neighbor - excuse for tracker checks. See: strongandbig in Death Note Mafia. It's simple. Also, like someone else said, scum have a survival instinct that other town players don't have. You're free to think whatever you like but combine that with the fact that he isn't here defending himself and never even defended himself from his initial accusation, what's town about what he's doing? If he really is a tracker, he should be going nuts trying to save himself. Scum give up because they don't want to give the town more information to go off of later. | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 05 2012 09:32 Ottoxlol wrote: why would they get out of any lynch if someone they visited died? because if people believe the claim they can say "i'm nosy neighbor so it was just a random visit" it's preemptive defense read: strongandbig in death note mafia. scum that claimed self-aware miller (a role that didn't exist) essentially in the same fashion that Mattchew did. | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 05 2012 09:27 goodkarma wrote: I would agree with Hapa that Mattchew is almost a 100% scum read. He's done a good job of highlighting why. But there is more than one scum. We need to move past Mattchew onto pressuring other people. A scum lynch day one puts us in an excellent position going forward. Looking at others' filters I couldn't help but notice that there still are a considerable number of people that need to participate more to help ensure a strong pro-town environment going into day 2. Grush is at modkill-threshold. I don't expect he's going to be around all that much longer. Until he makes his first post, I consider any time spent pressuring him as a waste. On the other hand, Gravan, Lvdr, austinmc, maverick, ShadySands, and ShioPi all stand out to me as semi-lurkers. Some of them seem to have legitimate reasons (such as ShadySands), but that doesn't mean they aren't scum with legitimate reasons. As for things that have stood out to me: -Obviously, Ottoxlol made a rather out of place vote after it was apparent Mattchew was lying. I don't feel this is a scum tell, as from a scum perspective Mattchew is pretty much "confirmed scum" at this point. Scum would be dumb to not bus him. It doesn't guarantee he's innocent, but it feels like his vote is too out of place to have been made by scum. -BlackMamba's early vote against Cobbler still stands out to me. Cobbler started the initiative to get Mattchew lynched, convincing me that he's "confirmed town." I just don't see any scenario where Cobbler as scum aggressively buses his partner day one. Yet BlackMamba voted him with little reason, then turned around and tacked on more of an explanation a little later. BlackMamba's play here makes sense from a scum perspective, as he could have been trying to avert attention away from Mattchew. Also, he isn't transparent with his reads. As town, I see no reason why he'd withhold them, as he does here: I don't understand why it is that he can't share reads on sloosh and toadstern if he has them. Refusing to be transparent does not help town. ##FoS: BlackMamba I look forward to hearing BlackMamba's reply, especially regarding his reads on sloosh and toadstern that he refused to share. this is dumb, ask BC why also no i'm not giving you my reads, reads are fucking stupid any other questions | ||
BlackMamba24
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Here: 1) never outright accuses BC of lying and doesn't OMGUS at all, takes passive role in defending himself. result of implicit guilt? 2) hints at the fact that he might be blue without outright claiming. if he has reason to suspect BC is right he knows he's getting lynched and needs to claim right away. scum, unlike someone who is actually blue, need a considerable amount of time to think about a second claim and plan with the mafia, his posts during the time i was arguing with BC read to me like he was stalling while trying to think of something 3) by saying that BC must have PM'd Palmar he's basically admitting that BC is right that he was lying but yet does not actually defend himself for it which seems tbh really strange to me from both a town and scum motivation. he says "devils advocate" when he comes up with a town motivated scenario for lying as though he's trying to just tell BC what he is doing so he will drop it Thinking back on it, he had made excuses/hinted at town-aligned scenarios for his lie before Palmar confirmed he was lying. Defense before-the-fact is almost always a sign of scum. | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 05 2012 09:47 Ottoxlol wrote: Watcher see 2 ppl over a dead body, one of them claimed noisy. lynch the other, if he flips not red vig/rb the fake noisy Which is the same thing that would happen if he was a blue fakeclaiming nosy isn't it? Unless he has a visiting role there's no reason to claim nosy neighbor like that and your scenario still applies. No one is denying that what he did was stupid but I've seen scum do much dumber things than this | ||
BlackMamba24
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GoodKarma is scum for this reason - he says that mattchew is confirmed scum but then doesn't vote for him and tries to push suspicion onto me instead, appeals to BC (buddying up to a vet, classic newbie scum) basically the same as treehugger or whoever in tl mafia xxx who says "yeah youngminii is scum for sure but im not gonna vote for him and instead make a case on this random dude" | ||
BlackMamba24
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So where's the vote. You put an FoS on me which says you're unsure enough that you're too scared to vote. So if you are basically 100% on Mattchew, there is zero reason for you as town to have not voted for him already. There aren't any town motivations whatsoever for this post. You could have at least weighed in on the arguments surrounding Toadesstern/Hapahauli. If mattchew is 100% scum you don't FoS the guy defending him? Sorry, no matter how you look at it there isn't any town reasoning behind this post. Even if Mattchew flips bluer than the sky it doesn't absolve you because I don't ever see a townie posting "yeah this guy is 100% scum but instead of voting for him check out my weak ass FoS on this other guy based on some posts at the beginning of the game from which I was mysteriously absent and didn't apparently notice it when it happened" | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 05 2012 09:52 Hapahauli wrote: The strange thing is that he buddied up to me and not to BC. Hell it's pretty clear from his post that he didn't read the thread, given his stances on Grush and lvdr. and ignoring ottox by buddying to BC I mean he's taking his side in a sense post comes off as totally constructed and edited like BC said, this dude is scum | ||
BlackMamba24
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The setup in that game is also very similar so there you go. Rewok, seriously, I do believe you to just be new town but your summaries and reads are doing nothing to help. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147475 On September 05 2012 10:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Eh? If he flips blue I am going to rip him a new one after game. If he flips black I will be surprised as hell but could understand taking that risk. However his reaction since being proven a liar suggests red. I cannot believe a townie or third party would just give up at this point. We'll see what happens. On September 05 2012 10:09 Ottoxlol wrote: Yet you are not answering my response about why would a scum claim And I have to repeat the same crap over and over again because no one is answering. Everyone is on Matt. No one can say why is it more likely that hes scum than blue or assa, no one voted on him with some case explaining it. Scum planted it in the thread that it is so and new players doesnt want to discuss it fearing a lynch? I have no idea. People have actually answered your question multiple times. You just refuse to believe that a scum would make such a bad play, a block that will prevent you from catching many scum in the future. | ||
BlackMamba24
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BlackMamba24
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Anyway, reads are useless because it doesn't lead to anything. It doesn't pressure anybody and it won't get someone lynched. Why should I make a post with just a list of people and then my best guess to their alignment? Who does that help? I think it's stupid. Like your whole thing about Hapa is just worthless. You think maybe he's town maybe he's scum but you don't really see it either way and have no strong read. What the hell is the point of that? How does that help us lynch scum? It doesn't. Therefore it's worthless. The only reason reads would be useful would be as part of pressuring a suspected scum, you want to know what they think and find inconsistencies. I think I've made it fairly obvious what my general stance is this game without making any kind of ridiculous post full of reads and bullet points. I just don't like that. Anyway, BloodyC0bbler just explained to you why his actions were scummy. Basically he called out a player out on a lie to start a bandwagon and failed to provide proof. This means, at least to me, that he must have had privileged information and generally people with privileged information Day 1 are scum. He kept going on and on about Mattchew but couldn't provide evidence. No one believed him, I was the only person to be aggressive about it but then I realized he just couldn't say how he knew since he knew from a mod PM and that's when I backed off. Does that make sense? I still think BC might be scum though. | ||
BlackMamba24
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Mafia can post their "reads" all game and blend in without ever taking a real stance of pushing anyone. People who just come in every day to say "Hey guys, all caught up now. Anyway here's my thoughts: Player x - Has a good argument but at the same time so do other people...hmmm not really sure leaning scum/town Player y - Leaning scum. Kinda lurky. Lurkers need to post. Blahblahblah Player z - Has been really aggressive but could be scum disrupting but also sometimes townies are aggressive and fearless so I'm not really sure" It's rarely as obvious as that ^ but TL towns are stupid as hell so mafia can post useless bullshit like that all day and get away with it and I want to discourage people from posting thoughtless tiny summaries of their "reads" and actually try even though I say that I am probably the laziest player ever, I almost never reaad the rules/setup of any game I'm in and rarely look at peoples filters and I react really prematurely to stuff. I should point out that it's consistent with my town meta, mafia that know me well usually make plans to distract me by attacking me or playing badly because it throws me off so bad that i can't scumhunt well | ||
BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
and new players have all been taught by other bad townies that posting a lot and posting your reads is good when it's trash so i'm not surprised i drop the fos on him completely, goodkarma isn't scum or at least if he is he hasn't revealed himself yet | ||
BlackMamba24
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ffs, just because claiming miller is a bad move as scum doesn't mean it wouldn't happen. it's a bad move regardless of his role so you can't really justify it better by town or black alignment. there are other factors that others have pointed out, mainly his complete lack of defense and implicit guilt when BC first accused him stop arguing with ottox because if that doesn't answer the basic question of "why people are voting for him" then he's belligerent, has really high standards or is actually dumb enough to believe no one ever makes misplays | ||
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i figure BC is probably mafia target #1 or #2 if he actually is town so it shouldn't matter if i say he's pretty much guaranteed to be either scum or a tracker | ||
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BloodyC0bbler - Changes his opinion of m and then lies about it. . First accuses me of being Mattchew's scumbuddy, then later claims he knew I was town all along and would have done the same thing. When he first claimed Mattchew was lying, he was belligerent toward other townies and even claimed I was Mattchew's scumbuddy. As such you have defended a confirmed liar and are scum with him. One question on my mind was "why is it that BC knew Mattchew was lying before anyone else?" e also used his first post to call him out. Nothing before that. Scum would of course be the first people expected to ask any role/setup questions along with blues, but blues usually only ask about their own roles. If it weren't for the inconsistency in his perception of my alignment (softly accusing me, unnecessary if he is town who thinks i'm town, then goes to "yeah I knew you were town from the beginning") I would assume he was a tracker. If he's a tracker, I've just outed him to the scum now but he's going to be hit target #1 regardless so it doesn't really matter tbh. I just want BC to answer to this. We know how he got the information, it seems an awfully strange question to ask before posting unless you saw his claim before you entered the thread and wanted to make sure. But surely you'd have something else to comment on? If it's a bus, it's a good bus. So consider that just pressure. I don't think BC or anyone is cleared by this flip. I've seen scum do buses like this and in fact I've orchestrated them myself. If mafia planned on bussing Mattchew previously it makes sense that BC's first post would be a call out. I really just want BC to answer about that inconsistency with regards to my alignment. | ||
BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
1. People who went actively or softly against the Mattchew lynch: Ottoxlol/Gravan 2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts 3. At least one active person, probably Bill Murray. He's seemed to focus a lot on people like MiltonKram/Hapahauli neither of whom are scummy at all and meanwhile his rhetoric/language seems very much an attempt to buddy up with me or other people. "Well that settles it...##Vote: Mattchew /disappear from thread" Ottoxlol is scum. If he isn't, he needs to read Ver's guide 100 times before he signs up for another game. He didn't present an alternate target. His only clear motivation was to defend Mattchew NOT to lynch scum. He says Hapa and Toad tried to silence him and lied, but he never pushed either of them as a lynch target. Worthless vote on Toad who isn't even remotely scummy. Vig's absolutely hit this guy tonight. This is the only time you're gonna get general reads because I could die tonight. Town players, serious scumhunters, take another look at sloOsh and Shady Sands. sloOsh was absent for the majority of the thread, asking a lot of questions in the beginning (not alignment indicative in and of itself, scum do it for cred town do it to pressure) and being very very invested in everyones opinions, disappearing when mattchew is 100% getting lynched, then pops up at night "Hey guys who do we kill next?" That's scum behavior through and through. Shady Sands was far more FARRRR more active in Death Note Mafia. I think Assassins should hit both of these targets tonight because I believe them to be either black or red. If you're unsure if someone is scum/assassin but have good reason to think they are scum, broadcast their case as an assassin so that assassins will hit the scum at night and help us win faster. I'm gonna read over Bill Murray's filter a couple times and doublecheck everything since I don't want to make the same mistake I made with GoodKarma again and if something comes of it, I will post a case just before the day comes. Or before I go to bed. | ||
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yeah, i was wrong about assassins, i messed up thinking they were like ninjas from other games, i rarely read the full setup of any game im in because the setup/mechanics is always the least important part of any given game so i just skim them @sloOsh voting before the announcement means nothing. anyone who was scum with mattchew would know it was only a matter of time before palmar confirmed the nosy neighbor stuff to other people so that isn't gonna buy anyone town cred with me at least | ||
BlackMamba24
United States277 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:01 Maverick32x wrote: Why am I being casually FoS'ed? I don't think I've ever seen a solid case against me, but I keep seeing people just drop my name into the list as an add-on without any reason? I find THAT a bit suspicious. because scum are parroting Bill Murray who started looking at you after I FoS'd you but then I retracted it and they're not paying enough attention to have caught up to that fact yet BM retracted it as well I think SloOsh might be ninja actually because it would be really really fucking weird for scum to say that people who dropped a vote and then left are scum despite having done the exact thing themselves. in fact, i would figure scum to at least come in after palmar and make some half assed attempt at looking town ninjas are probably paying the least attention to the game out of everybody because their win condition is so narrow so that would explain a lot | ||
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I provided more reasoning than anybody regarding Mattchew and even reposted once or twice so he could see it but he continues to ignore all argument/reasoning and repeat the same lie that nobody ever explained why they voted for Mattchew, no one ever explained why he is scummy besides that he lied, etc. all untrue false bullshit that can be easily demonstrated Let's say you are town adn you think town is about to mislynch. What do you do? A) Repeat the same arguments, when you get answers for your questions, ignore them and attack/insult people responding to you. Vote for someone else but never really push the case. When the person flips scum continue to act as though your arguments were brilliant somehow even though you are now objectively wrong about everything. Attack everyone voting for this player. B) Explain why you think they are innocent. Find someone you think is scum and push them as much as you can. Listen to and consider the responses to your questions about the Mattchew lynch. After the lynch, try to see where your argument went wrong and reconsider your point of view. Yeah town players can be bad. They can be assholes. But there are clear scum motivations and tells in ottox's behavior. 1) Defends only by assaulting and attacking other players 2) Avoids real argument/discussion by ignoring other peoples posts, misrepresenting them (for instance, saying I never provided reasons for my vote when I was the first to do that) and insulting others. 3) Doesn't push an alternate case with any commitment. 4) Behavior/arguments have a clear conclusion that was determined beforehand and will never change. Suggests that he has objective knowledge of something or a clear agenda. There you go. That's enough. If Ottoxlol is not hit by a vigilante tonight which he should be, he is the absolute best lynch target for tomorrow. Period. | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 06 2012 08:29 Toadesstern wrote: Btw I'd agree Ottox really has to die. Even if he's town he's probably the most anti-town player in here. He'll continue derailing the thread and mafia is he's either a mafia (in which case lynching seeing him dead is a good thing, duh) or he's someone who will be pushed for a mislynch. Having him pushed for a mislynch however is way worse than having him die because it wastes a complete cycle if he really flips green. So yeah, if you're a town-vig feel free to shoot him. I'm feeling somewhat uneasy about most of the vets. All of them have their minor issues except for BC right now. BM looks a little to opportunistic and I can't stop thinking that he's buddying me. Foru's posting a little to cautios for my taste Dr.H's posting feels just off. Can't really put my finger on it though. Like that post when he asked BC wether or not he understood why he didn't trust BC. That probably was the most odd post of the vets I've seen this game. However, those are all very minor things not worth a damn on their own and frankly I doubt that more than one of them is going to flip mafia. I guess you could call this a "don't treat them as town warning" although I don't want them to be shot. Just pay attention in case I'm dead by tomorrow. If either BC or I end up dead tonight something's wrong with our medics or we don't have medics lol. Watchers are, as already mentioned, also incredible good for us as we're unlikely to be visited by something like town trackers / vigs / mad hatters. So if someone visits us and we end up being roleblocked or shot that's Jackpot for the watcher. Because he accused me of being his scumbuddy earlier and I wanted to see if he remembered doing that and can explain it (indicates he is genuine town) or if he's rewriting history so to speak. Ofc he could have just forgot but if you were paying attention I kinda pointed out what I thought was weird about BC earlier and that was the reason I asked that question. | ||
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On September 06 2012 08:28 Hapahauli wrote: I'm having second thoughts about ottox. He reads to me like a horrendously deluded townie. Think about it - he hard defends Mattchew. That's absurd from a scum perspective - especially AFTER Mattchew was confirmed. It doesn't read like ottox really was playing with the extra information (knowing allignments), he would have STFU long ago. Combined with the fact that he seems genuinely upset and has been pretty active, I'm going to retract my suspicions on him. I think he's a bad bad bad townie. I'd much rather vigi-shot MiltonKram at this point, I'm wondering why you thought he wasn't scummy in your earlier post after the lynch. because there are clear and very mafia-aligned motivations behind what ottoxlol is doing that make zero sense from any other perspective "too scummy to be scum" is a BS argument dude, ottoxlol needs the noose | ||
BlackMamba24
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Vigilante, hit Ottoxlol. I have a feeling Gravan is going to die but I think we should hit Ottox and push to lynch someone else tomorrow, we'll probably get more productive discussion out of that and thus catch more scum. | ||
BlackMamba24
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I just read MiltonKram's filter. He made a simple mistake regarding timing with DarthPunk, he voted for Mattchew, put a little pressure on you and you overreacted. Sound familiar? I've made worse mistakes in this game. Completely overlooking Goodkarma's vote which was the whole point of my case on him, etc. but you never called me out for that? Take the blinders off. You remind me a bit of youngminii, a player who was otherwise okay but as soon as anyone questioned him or FoS'd him he'd flip his lid. He actually shot me twice (once as dayvig once as nightvig) when I was town because I was suspicious of him. Good times. | ||
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On September 06 2012 09:04 DoYouHas wrote: Now that we are sure about Matt, I think I have found scum in Hopeless1der. Hopeless and Broodking are the two people who posted cases on people other than Mattchew (Forumite and Toad, respectively) in the time period between when BC's attack and Palmar's confirmation. This I think is a very important period of time because the uncertainty of the town on how to deal with BC and Matt makes it the best time for scum to try and divert the wagon of their scumbuddy. Both Hopeless and Brood's cases could have been made with that intent, but I see Hopeless as scum easier than I see Brood. Brood had expressed his distaste for Toad earlier in the game and just doesn't fit the reluctant busser as well as Hopeless. I have already taken issue with some of his case on Forumite Here. But when you combine his case with the post he made a page earlier. You have to admit that it looks awfully like he is attacking BC (the main proponent of a Matt lynch) and then trying to divert to another target. Not convinced this is what he was doing? Here is the first line of his case on Forumite: Moving on to his "voteswitch" 1. - He never did vote Forumite. this reads to me exactly like he was trying to use his case to divert the Matt bandwagon, and after Palmar confirmed the fakeclaim, is trying to save face. (Funny how nobody seems to call him out for this voteswitch despite searching for defenders of Matt.) 2. - He doesn't seem to happy to be switching to a guaranteed fakeclaim that is very likely scum right here, odd. After Hopeless' vote has settled onto Mattchew I note 2 more things that read scummy to me. First, in these two posts (1)(2) Hopeless jumps at the chance to be the information provider, a very easy way to 'contribute' and with someone as inactive as Hopeless a definite scumtell. Second, This waffley statement is definitely something I would expect from scum. To sum up, I think Hopeless1der fits a reluctant busser that is trying to slide by extremely well and I want to lynch him ASAP. we should lynch doyouhas too, this is a post that was definitely posted in the scum qt a few times my intuition is flaring up like crazy over this | ||
BlackMamba24
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Ottoxlol jumped on you immediately when you posted a picture like 10 seconds into the game before anything happened. On September 04 2012 07:34 Ottoxlol wrote: so many lurkers, no wonder scum is skewing the thread their way He's unreasonable and negative from the beginning. His case on Toadesstern consists of Toadesstern ignoring his questions but he did answer the questions. "Since no one made a case other than he's lying therefore scum. " This is untrue. He keeps repeating things like this that are false. Multiple people came up with other reasoning, especially me and BC. Later he lies and said I never explained my reasons even though I did, directly to him. He continues to get more and more belligerent. This is very odd behavior for someone who is simply defending "another townie". His only other attack on Toadesstern is "nice scum slip there". You think that counts as pushing? Sure, he was caught up in his argument but his argument was almost all straight up lying and ignoring people. He continues to say that no one has any reason and ignores me and BC saying over and over about Mattchew's lack of defense, lack of analysis, lack of any town actions behind his fake claim. You don't just look at a lie or a slip and lynch someone, but Mattchew had NOTHING that indicates a pro-town attitude behind it. Who gives up that quickly before the mod even confirmed the lie? Scum. It didn't make sense any other way but instead of finally responding to reasons beyond "he lied" he just ignores it and continues to say no one provided any. | ||
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@DYH | ||
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On September 06 2012 10:20 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Which game are you referring to. I would like a reference so I can get an idea of his town playstyle. I was in Death Note Mafia with him and he was very active and aggressive in the early game. Could be blue/ninja though so it's best left until actually actively scummy people are all dealt with before we start looking at no-shows. | ||
BlackMamba24
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i tried talking to you before in death note mafia hapahauli and it didn't work because you are stubborn and horrible at scumhunting so im going to actually ignore everything you said you're obsessed with milton your whole case hinges on the fact that my reads seem to be changing which is something that happens to everyone. get a grip. | ||
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On September 06 2012 12:45 Hapahauli wrote: Another point: I find it strange that DrH is willing to see "bad townie" in MiltonKram, but is completely unwilling to see any "bad townie" motivation in Ottoxlol. From my perspective, I think it's pretty clear that Ottoxlol is a deluded townie, and DrH really hasn't even considered the other side of things. He's been incredibly aggressive at getting Ottox vigi-killed - and this was all before BC brought up the 5-man team "scumslip" (which I still believe is a misinterpretation, but we've argued enough of that). yeah scum me, is incredibly afraid of ottoxlol the guy that doesn't push his cases and just attacks everyone and creates chaos your little thing about how miltonkram lurked after voting for mattchew, yeah that is bad, yeah he should be considered, but i don't think over ottox right now. basically, miltonkram is a lurker who falls in a group of players where scum is likely hiding. however, that is not enough to lynch or kill right now because a lot of people fit that description. first lynch actively scummy people then look into lurkers and pressure them when there's nothing better to do go ahead and keep pressuring miltonkram,t hat's a pro-town thing to do but i'm by no means defending him and going after people for not worshipping your case is egotistical but not in a helpful way. im not gonna validate you with responses anymore, people might think you're worth listening to | ||
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On September 06 2012 13:04 Bill Murray wrote: weird interaction between kobe and austin there, too, and coupled with him slipping in his wording? potential scumteam uhhhhh do you know anything about basketball lakers starting 5: Steve Nash PG Kobe Bryant (#24, nickname is the black mamba) SG Metta World Peace SF Jordan Hill PF Pau Gasol C until dwight howard gets off injury at least he's jjust making cute basketball references. steve nash and kobe are literally on the same team. | ||
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What's wrong with questioning BloodyC0bblers alignment, do you know his alignment? Because I don't. | ||
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Anyway, are you gonna push to lynch me now? It's funny so many people are sour on me attacking BC (back when no one believed him lol) when he says himself he would have done the same thing. | ||
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On September 06 2012 13:41 Hapahauli wrote: @ DrH - I'll drop it, that's pretty much all I needed from you - same type of defense as in DN + I'm willing to chalk an inconsistency up to active play. Might be something worth looking into if somehow you're alive on Day 4, but otherwise, I'm satisfied. Still think you should reconsider ottoxlol, or atleast try to look through his filter through a townie perspective once. What you call "not pushing his reads" looks a lot like him getting lost and frustrated in an argument. Lastly, I still want miltonkram to get shot up by a vig tonight. No changing that. I did and it's a lot harder to justify as town than scum Even if he is caught up in his arguments, there is no town-aligned explanation to how he intentionally ignores the answer to his own questions to continuously push his agenda. That indicates, to me, that he has a forgone conclusion and is not interested in actually thinking about it. I even sat for a moment cause some of his first questions seemed pretty pro-town to me but it's not like scum don't try their hardest to sound pro-town when they can. | ||
BlackMamba24
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On September 06 2012 13:50 slOosh wrote: You are right with the lurking - I got caught up with my little thing with DYH and haven't been lucid with my full reasonings behind each accusation. I do not however think it warrants misinterpretation or discrediting like that. There is nothing wrong about questioning BC's alignment, but you flat out said the Mattchew thing is alignment-inconclusive. This is beyond what I consider "healthy" paranoia, but that may be because you know what scum BC is capable of. Additionally I still don't see where you say "my read of Maverick was a misunderstanding", nor how that is the logical flow of reading the related posts. I've been thinking about it. It's inconclusive and BC isn't cleared by any means. Mattchew could have been an intentional bus. I was very sure that it was when the night started but since I've thought about it more I don't. The reason I no longer think it was a bus was because Mattchew did lightly defend himself early on but was passive about it, as though he were setting up for others to defend him later. If they were scumbuddies together, they would have put on more of a show than that. The Maverick thing went like this. 1. Night is over, I'm convinced ottoxlol is scum 2. Can't believe how many people are saying ottoxlol shouldn't get lynched or hit/etc. 3. Had my suspicions earlier about Bill Murray and remember him going in on DoYouHas and Maverick32x (specifically after I did, on both of them iirc) 4. Saw other people say the same stuff about Maverick. 5. Assume they are parroting BM (I overlooked his post where he retracted his accusation against Maverick) and I feel this may be a way of defending ottoxlol. Hopefully that clears up my train of thought a little more. I'm all over the place and rarely take it upon myself to ever explain to town why my reads change when they do or when I change my mind. Whoever it was that came out with a case against Maverick did so fairly convincingly and I'll have to reread Maverick's meta to be sure. Basically, I think Milton/Maverick/Gravan/etc. all deserve a good look but there is such a thing as priorities. @Haupa, You're prioritizing Milton because he attacked you and argued with you. Take the blinders off. You misread me in Death Note Mafia and made a terrible terrible case against HiroPro and you never seem to know when to drop it or prioritize. I understand you think ottox is just too bad or too disruptive to be scum but other people have come in and explained it pretty adequately. If I were scum, I'd advise him that he has to roll with it. Since no one besides me really and BC are pushing him, he could easily get out of it. If BC/BM someone who knows me well is scum, they know I can't stand it when people attack me. It always throws me off majorly. I feel like Ottoxlol is an agent of disruption. And I know I'm a broken record here but LISTEN. When townies make arguments or ask questions, they are curious. They are looking for answers or trying to get responses from people that indicate a certain alignment. That is not ottoxlol's intention. His intention goes far beyond "I think Mattchew is town so we shouldn't lynch him." He provides very shaky reasons for Mattchew not being able to be scum that had already been set-up for him by others who speculated that Mattchew could be making a bad town aligned or third-party play. I thought he sounded pro-town when he brought up how other lynches like this gave little to no information but he kept on saying something very key (and I'm paraphrasing) "You're lynching Mattchew for lying. However, no one has provided reasons as to why his lies or behavior are actually scummy." Now, this isn't true. I provided them personally here: On September 04 2012 20:46 BlackMamba24 wrote: Oh, some suspicious notes about Mattchew before I go to bed 1) never outright accuses BC of lying and doesn't OMGUS at all, takes passive role in defending himself. result of implicit guilt? 2) hints at the fact that he might be blue without outright claiming. if he has reason to suspect BC is right he knows he's getting lynched and needs to claim right away. scum, unlike someone who is actually blue, need a considerable amount of time to think about a second claim and plan with the mafia, his posts during the time i was arguing with BC read to me like he was stalling while trying to think of something 3) by saying that BC must have PM'd Palmar he's basically admitting that BC is right that he was lying but yet does not actually defend himself for it which seems tbh really strange to me from both a town and scum motivation. he says "devils advocate" when he comes up with a town motivated scenario for lying as though he's trying to just tell BC what he is doing so he will drop it i guess it comes down to what mattchew claims now if he flips blue then that doesn't tell me anything about anyone else here really except for people who didn't say anything about mattchew until after palmar confirmed the bit about the nosy neighbor so i guess we will just have to take it as a lesson for blues from now on to be a bit more careful i really just don't understand #3 but i have seen scum kinda give up when they get caught in lies before or martyr themselves so maybe it isn't so strange after all Here I provide 3 odd behaviors of Mattchew that tell me he does not have a town aligned role. This is what Ottox was asking for. Other people gave other reasons, how the claim makes sense as scum because he's preemptively defending himself from a tracker whereas blue gains nothing from it except maaaaaaaaaaybe a tracker, but a tracker would defend himself, claim he was tracker, and try his best not to get lynched. There were always other reasons. Other people kept telling him. But he never listened. He ignored that, insulted everyone who responded to him. THEN Mattchew flips red. And instead of admitting he was wrong, he acts as though his shit doesn't stink and we're all a bunch of idiots. Not to mention misrepresenting me as a lurker or a person who voted without reason. I am if I'm not mistaken the person who went the furthest out of their way to justify the vote for Mattchew because simply lies are not enough. SIMILARLY Lurking is NOT a scumtell. Lurkers who behave scummily or with clearly mafia-aligned intentions are probably scum. Who else lurks? Blues Ninjas Scared Newbies People who are actually just busy Be careful that you're not lynching one of those people. Yes, I think there are quite a few lurking/low post count scum. Look at the meta and more importantly, the content of the posts. Someone could just be busier than they were in a previous game or trying to post less but look at the way they attack people, they way they build their cases, etc. look for differences in psychology and behavior. Post count is just a number. | ||
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I see a clear attempt to be helpful and constructive here, at least over the first couple pages. Not belligerent, listening to other players, pressuring people, making a real effort to help the town. Seems very different to me. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128&user=124671¤tpage=5 He's at least nice about it. "I'm frustrated that no one seems to be reading my posts." The attitude is way different. filter Good case, I can understand your reasoning. He actually tries well and immediately to defend himself when he comes under suspicion. In this game he deflects it with insults and goes absent. The gameplay and meta is totally way different. How can you not see that? | ||
BlackMamba24
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As town ottoxlol is not very aggressive, tries to be helpful and defends himself very actively. In this game he is very aggressive and extremely negative, gets caught up in arguments with a completely different attitude/tone. In Area Mafia he asks questions, seems to listen to other peoples posts, makes a lot of posts addressing general points rather than picking people apart and discrediting them. Ottox has done nothing to defend himself in this thread. On April 24 2012 20:48 Ottoxlol wrote: From "area mafia": And insulting the other instead of arguing will help a lot, good tactic. Next you will claim JK right? Interesting. Anyway, vig hit ottox. | ||
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