TL Mafia LVII

On August 28 2012 00:02 marvellosity wrote:


but this name is a pile of crap compared to DrH

:<

On August 30 2012 07:43 goodkarma wrote:



lol

I'm not saying I expect that everyone playing this is going to be a mafia superstar. But getting a chance to play with some of the best players in TL mafia should be a great learning opportunity .

On August 31 2012 15:29 Bill Murray wrote:
lord, please let me be mafia with doctorhelvetica
thank you

On August 31 2012 16:17 DarthPunk wrote:


Dear Lord...

On September 03 2012 13:46 Bill Murray wrote:

completely disagree with this. town circle in this setup? OpZ and I had one, as did rasta/foolishness... and that's how town won this setup previously

On September 04 2012 07:59 slOosh wrote:

What do you mean by "reads"? Are you talking specifically about general lists opposed to focused discussion on a certain player?

On September 04 2012 08:09 DoYouHas wrote:
Well, as per usual I like lynching lurkers day 1 if a scummier option doesn't present itself.

Blues should do as they see fit. Discussion in that area only gives scum more points of reference for blue hunting.

In the past L has assured me that this is always the correct course of action, sooo

##Vote: Bill Murray

On September 04 2012 09:27 Forumite wrote:
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I wondered about this phrase:

On September 04 2012 11:03 goodkarma wrote:
Hey all

A couple general observations for what I've just read:


-I don't follow some of the voting that's already taken place in this thread. I don't get why some of us feel the need to vote for each other this early with little to no information to back a vote up. Imho, we should be working to establish a strong, pro-town atmosphere just as much as we are to find a lynch candidate for today.

-I remember Hapa saying this once before: lynching one of the most vocal members day one is typically not the best idea. Looking back at how NMM XXIV turned out (Shady's lynch), others here should agree with me that there's at least some evidence to support this. Town loses so much more from a mislynch of a vocal town than of a semi-lurker, and, at least in my experience, you're much more likely to lynch a town than a scum when you target the most vocal day one player.

I'm not going to assume that sloosh is town at this point, but the effort he's taken to pressure others with his posts is definitely conducive towards a pro-town atmosphere. Along those lines, I feel that Z-Boson's early vote on sloosh could very well be scum motivated. I disagree that sloosh's discussion is unhelpful. Maybe scum or town could pressure people like sloosh has, but he's pushing for more information so he's not stuck making a weak case against others, as Z-Boson has with sloosh:

##FoS: Z-Boson

The role PMs will only include your role name. Refer to this post for information on how your role works.

Vanilla Townie

You are a regular townie, your only weapons are your voice and your vote.

Nosy Neighbour

You are a Nosy Neighbour. This means that you are basically vanilla town, except every night you will visit a random player in the game. You will not know whom you visited.

On September 04 2012 11:57 Mattchew wrote:
he's trying to say he pm'd palmar

On September 04 2012 12:00 goodkarma wrote:
@BlackMamba:




First, I'd like to specify that asking questions that get others to discuss their reads on other players, or to defend themselves for something suspicious said in their posts, is not "dumb." I in fact find it suspicious from a townie perspective to call many of the lines of questioning recently presented in this thread as "dumb," since so far most of it has produced productive discussion. From a scum perspective, though, a statement like this does make sense. Scum has the knowledge of who is and isn't scum, so to them watching people they know to be town attacking each other could look pretty "dumb."

Second, at the time I posted that sloosh was one of the most outspoken people in the game. From a scum perspective, it would make sense to remove an outspoken person day one. Especially if said person was furthering discussion by poking and prodding others with a lot of questions.


While we're at it, I'd like to ask about this:




What's with the vote for BloodyCobbler? He's pretty much a lurker at this point, but you're voting him for non-policy reasons... This feels like a scum getting behind a safe lurker lynch vote, at least at the time you wrote it (it just came to my attention as I'm about to post this that another page of postings have taken place, and cobbler has just made another post...)... My guess is this is a pressure vote, but I would appreciate a bit more of an explanation if you could provide it.

On September 04 2012 12:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:



Yes, the liar is town and the not liar is scum. Drh Logic ftw. Now people know why I play less, because logic doesn't exist here.

You are right, I did misread his post for that I apologize, i skimmed saw what I thought was bs and posted on it. He still clearly lied. Give me a town motivation for lying at this stage in the game drH. Please tell me what a townie gets from lying about his role this early into the game.

On September 04 2012 12:05 BloodyC0bbler wrote:



No mafia will shoot a nosy neighbor and any vig who does is stupid, blue trying to look vanilla would claim vanilla. You don't claim miller. Miller is a mafia claim to explain why they do shit at night. Pre claiming is to add "legitimacy to it"

On September 04 2012 12:17 Mattchew wrote:

this is what BC is trying to say are you all this dumb?

On September 04 2012 12:17 DarthPunk wrote:


Well Then, Provide evidence that is not based on assuming this game operates in the same manner that previous games have.

@BlackMamba

I think that BC is wrong to misrepresent something as factual when it clearly is not. But that is not alignment indicative necessarily. He seems more like a townie than anything.

If this is scum BC trying to get a Mislynch day one it has backfired spectacularly and would even more so when Mattchew flipped. It would be an extremely short sighted play.

On September 04 2012 12:47 DarthPunk wrote:


Conversely what would a townie gain from lying about Being a Nosy Neighbour? This argument works both ways and thus has little value. If NN are not self aware it looks pretty bad for Mattchew.

On September 04 2012 13:01 DarthPunk wrote:


Vice versa somewhat. I think it looks worse for Mattchew to be caught lying than for BC to have pushed for a lynch he obviously 100% believes in.

On September 04 2012 13:17 Maverick32x wrote:
Hey guys- got a chance to catch up and I have a couple thoughts.

First- Not totally comfortable voting Mattchew at this point.. I understand the potential for lying about the role claim.. and I'm not a big fan of role claiming in general... HOWEVER- I'd like to reiterate BlackMamba's post that said something to the tune of "ITT- Townies arguing with Townies" because I find that people are so quick to blame each other for stupid stuff that we end up wasting the first couple days with literally zero reason for voting someone besides "They drew a picture"....

That being said- I'd like to draw a little bit of attention to the first voter for whom I feel like I can make an actual observation on- Toadesstern.

The reason I want to focus on that is just because of the speed at which he strikes out just makes me wonder why that's beneficial from a town perspective? And I'm just wondering if he just wanted to try to promote chaos right away?? Also- consistently attacking other posters seems to be a trend....

On September 04 2012 18:52 imallinson wrote:
Morning all. Just finished reading through the thread. I was thinking about whether Matt or BC were scum but Palmar answered that question for us. Obviously ##Vote:Mattchew.

So now we know Mattchew is scum we go onto his scumbuddies. BlackMamba is a fairly obvious target because he defended Matt pretty hard and went after BC who, barring a crazy scum tactic, is town. I'd like to hear from him now that we know Matt's claim was fake.

The other person I thought was really suspicious was Rewok because his one real post was the most useless shit I've ever seen. There is no point in posting reads on everyone if that read is, in all cases, null. He even goes out of his way to explain away the uselessness of his post:
I would like to see him say something actually substantial on someone.

On September 05 2012 07:19 Hopeless1der wrote:


The whole point of his case is that you pushing DP wasn't a real scum read, it was errant Day 1 bullshit. Which most of the thread was at that point. I still think he's scummy because that's a shitty case at the time it arose, but it's reasonably consistent, despite the misinformation.

On September 05 2012 09:11 BloodyC0bbler wrote:


the biggest change I would make to this is. If its day 1 (like today) and your options are sure kill on assassin or random lynch on someone who could flip town (day 1 reasoning's for lynches usually aren't the best) then I'd take the assassin.

Only reason for this is if you aren't sure on your lynch choice and the option is deff not a townie I would opt for that.

I also think I know what game you are referencing.

What do you think of the last page or two's worth of posts? There has been some moderately decentish talking compared to last night.

On September 05 2012 09:28 Hapahauli wrote:
@ BM24

Does Ottoxlol's defense of Mattchew make him likely-mafia? While I consider his arguments insane (at best), I'd imagine that mafia are in full-bus mode on Mattchew no? I just don't see the mafia motive in going against the entire town to defend a guy who's basically confirmed scum.

Regarding MiltonKram - I think the key difference between his case and your case in DN Mini (tunneling you for that long was a horrible play on my part) is the presence of misleading evidence. In the DN Mini, your case wasn't good (D1 Caveats of course) but it wasn't misleading. MiltonKram not only tried to point out a third party, but used false evidence. I think there's a high chance he's mafia.

Now he could be a townie who made a bad play, but I find it unlikely given the content and timing of his suspicions. I also find it amusing that every time someone calls him out, he seems to fly into the thread, but is hush-hush otherwise.

On September 05 2012 09:32 Ottoxlol wrote:


why would they get out of any lynch if someone they visited died?

On September 05 2012 09:27 goodkarma wrote:
I would agree with Hapa that Mattchew is almost a 100% scum read. He's done a good job of highlighting why.

But there is more than one scum. We need to move past Mattchew onto pressuring other people. A scum lynch day one puts us in an excellent position going forward. Looking at others' filters I couldn't help but notice that there still are a considerable number of people that need to participate more to help ensure a strong pro-town environment going into day 2.

Grush is at modkill-threshold. I don't expect he's going to be around all that much longer. Until he makes his first post, I consider any time spent pressuring him as a waste.

On the other hand, Gravan, Lvdr, austinmc, maverick, ShadySands, and ShioPi all stand out to me as semi-lurkers. Some of them seem to have legitimate reasons (such as ShadySands), but that doesn't mean they aren't scum with legitimate reasons.

As for things that have stood out to me:

-Obviously, Ottoxlol made a rather out of place vote after it was apparent Mattchew was lying. I don't feel this is a scum tell, as from a scum perspective Mattchew is pretty much "confirmed scum" at this point. Scum would be dumb to not bus him. It doesn't guarantee he's innocent, but it feels like his vote is too out of place to have been made by scum.

-BlackMamba's early vote against Cobbler still stands out to me. Cobbler started the initiative to get Mattchew lynched, convincing me that he's "confirmed town." I just don't see any scenario where Cobbler as scum aggressively buses his partner day one.

Yet BlackMamba voted him with little reason, then turned around and tacked on more of an explanation a little later. BlackMamba's play here makes sense from a scum perspective, as he could have been trying to avert attention away from Mattchew. Also, he isn't transparent with his reads. As town, I see no reason why he'd withhold them, as he does here:





I don't understand why it is that he can't share reads on sloosh and toadstern if he has them. Refusing to be transparent does not help town.

##FoS: BlackMamba

I look forward to hearing BlackMamba's reply, especially regarding his reads on sloosh and toadstern that he refused to share.

1) never outright accuses BC of lying and doesn't OMGUS at all, takes passive role in defending himself. result of implicit guilt?

2) hints at the fact that he might be blue without outright claiming. if he has reason to suspect BC is right he knows he's getting lynched and needs to claim right away. scum, unlike someone who is actually blue, need a considerable amount of time to think about a second claim and plan with the mafia, his posts during the time i was arguing with BC read to me like he was stalling while trying to think of something

3) by saying that BC must have PM'd Palmar he's basically admitting that BC is right that he was lying but yet does not actually defend himself for it which seems tbh really strange to me from both a town and scum motivation. he says "devils advocate" when he comes up with a town motivated scenario for lying as though he's trying to just tell BC what he is doing so he will drop it

On September 05 2012 09:47 Ottoxlol wrote:


Watcher see 2 ppl over a dead body, one of them claimed noisy. lynch the other, if he flips not red vig/rb the fake noisy

On September 05 2012 09:52 Hapahauli wrote:


The strange thing is that he buddied up to me and not to BC. Hell it's pretty clear from his post that he didn't read the thread, given his stances on Grush and lvdr.

On September 05 2012 10:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote:



Eh? If he flips blue I am going to rip him a new one after game. If he flips black I will be surprised as hell but could understand taking that risk. However his reaction since being proven a liar suggests red. I cannot believe a townie or third party would just give up at this point.

On September 05 2012 10:09 Ottoxlol wrote:


Yet you are not answering my response about why would a scum claim And I have to repeat the same crap over and over again because no one is answering. Everyone is on Matt. No one can say why is it more likely that hes scum than blue or assa, no one voted on him with some case explaining it. Scum planted it in the thread that it is so and new players doesnt want to discuss it fearing a lynch? I have no idea.

As such you have defended a confirmed liar and are scum with him.

On September 06 2012 08:01 Maverick32x wrote:
Why am I being casually FoS'ed? I don't think I've ever seen a solid case against me, but I keep seeing people just drop my name into the list as an add-on without any reason?

I find THAT a bit suspicious.

On September 06 2012 08:29 Toadesstern wrote:
Btw I'd agree Ottox really has to die. Even if he's town he's probably the most anti-town player in here. He'll continue derailing the thread and mafia is he's either a mafia (in which case lynching seeing him dead is a good thing, duh) or he's someone who will be pushed for a mislynch.

Having him pushed for a mislynch however is way worse than having him die because it wastes a complete cycle if he really flips green. So yeah, if you're a town-vig feel free to shoot him.

I'm feeling somewhat uneasy about most of the vets. All of them have their minor issues except for BC right now.

BM looks a little to opportunistic and I can't stop thinking that he's buddying me.
Foru's posting a little to cautios for my taste
Dr.H's posting feels just off. Can't really put my finger on it though. Like that post when he asked BC wether or not he understood why he didn't trust BC. That probably was the most odd post of the vets I've seen this game.

However, those are all very minor things not worth a damn on their own and frankly I doubt that more than one of them is going to flip mafia. I guess you could call this a "don't treat them as town warning" although I don't want them to be shot. Just pay attention in case I'm dead by tomorrow.

If either BC or I end up dead tonight something's wrong with our medics or we don't have medics lol.
Watchers are, as already mentioned, also incredible good for us as we're unlikely to be visited by something like town trackers / vigs / mad hatters. So if someone visits us and we end up being roleblocked or shot that's Jackpot for the watcher.

On September 06 2012 08:28 Hapahauli wrote:


I'm having second thoughts about ottox. He reads to me like a horrendously deluded townie.

Think about it - he hard defends Mattchew. That's absurd from a scum perspective - especially AFTER Mattchew was confirmed. It doesn't read like ottox really was playing with the extra information (knowing allignments), he would have STFU long ago.

Combined with the fact that he seems genuinely upset and has been pretty active, I'm going to retract my suspicions on him.


I think he's a bad bad bad townie. I'd much rather vigi-shot MiltonKram at this point, I'm wondering why you thought he wasn't scummy in your earlier post after the lynch.

On September 06 2012 09:04 DoYouHas wrote:
Now that we are sure about Matt, I think I have found scum in Hopeless1der.

Hopeless and Broodking are the two people who posted cases on people other than Mattchew (Forumite and Toad, respectively) in the time period between when BC's attack and Palmar's confirmation. This I think is a very important period of time because the uncertainty of the town on how to deal with BC and Matt makes it the best time for scum to try and divert the wagon of their scumbuddy. Both Hopeless and Brood's cases could have been made with that intent, but I see Hopeless as scum easier than I see Brood. Brood had expressed his distaste for Toad earlier in the game and just doesn't fit the reluctant busser as well as Hopeless.

I have already taken issue with some of his case on Forumite Here. But when you combine his case with the post he made a page earlier. You have to admit that it looks awfully like he is attacking BC (the main proponent of a Matt lynch) and then trying to divert to another target. Not convinced this is what he was doing? Here is the first line of his case on Forumite:

---

Moving on to his "voteswitch"

1. - He never did vote Forumite. this reads to me exactly like he was trying to use his case to divert the Matt bandwagon, and after Palmar confirmed the fakeclaim, is trying to save face. (Funny how nobody seems to call him out for this voteswitch despite searching for defenders of Matt.)

2. - He doesn't seem to happy to be switching to a guaranteed fakeclaim that is very likely scum right here, odd.

---

After Hopeless' vote has settled onto Mattchew I note 2 more things that read scummy to me.

First, in these two posts (1)(2) Hopeless jumps at the chance to be the information provider, a very easy way to 'contribute' and with someone as inactive as Hopeless a definite scumtell.

Second, This waffley statement is definitely something I would expect from scum.

---

To sum up, I think Hopeless1der fits a reluctant busser that is trying to slide by extremely well and I want to lynch him ASAP.

On September 04 2012 07:34 Ottoxlol wrote:
so many lurkers, no wonder scum is skewing the thread their way

On September 06 2012 10:20 BloodyC0bbler wrote:



Which game are you referring to. I would like a reference so I can get an idea of his town playstyle.

On September 06 2012 12:45 Hapahauli wrote:
Another point: I find it strange that DrH is willing to see "bad townie" in MiltonKram, but is completely unwilling to see any "bad townie" motivation in Ottoxlol. From my perspective, I think it's pretty clear that Ottoxlol is a deluded townie, and DrH really hasn't even considered the other side of things. He's been incredibly aggressive at getting Ottox vigi-killed - and this was all before BC brought up the 5-man team "scumslip" (which I still believe is a misinterpretation, but we've argued enough of that).

On September 06 2012 13:04 Bill Murray wrote:
weird interaction between kobe and austin there, too, and coupled with him slipping in his wording? potential scumteam

On September 06 2012 13:41 Hapahauli wrote:
@ DrH - I'll drop it, that's pretty much all I needed from you - same type of defense as in DN + I'm willing to chalk an inconsistency up to active play. Might be something worth looking into if somehow you're alive on Day 4, but otherwise, I'm satisfied.

Still think you should reconsider ottoxlol, or atleast try to look through his filter through a townie perspective once. What you call "not pushing his reads" looks a lot like him getting lost and frustrated in an argument.

Lastly, I still want miltonkram to get shot up by a vig tonight. No changing that.

On September 06 2012 13:50 slOosh wrote:

You are right with the lurking - I got caught up with my little thing with DYH and haven't been lucid with my full reasonings behind each accusation. I do not however think it warrants misinterpretation or discrediting like that. There is nothing wrong about questioning BC's alignment, but you flat out said the Mattchew thing is alignment-inconclusive. This is beyond what I consider "healthy" paranoia, but that may be because you know what scum BC is capable of.

Additionally I still don't see where you say "my read of Maverick was a misunderstanding", nor how that is the logical flow of reading the related posts.

On September 04 2012 20:46 BlackMamba24 wrote:
Oh, some suspicious notes about Mattchew before I go to bed

1) never outright accuses BC of lying and doesn't OMGUS at all, takes passive role in defending himself. result of implicit guilt?

2) hints at the fact that he might be blue without outright claiming. if he has reason to suspect BC is right he knows he's getting lynched and needs to claim right away. scum, unlike someone who is actually blue, need a considerable amount of time to think about a second claim and plan with the mafia, his posts during the time i was arguing with BC read to me like he was stalling while trying to think of something

3) by saying that BC must have PM'd Palmar he's basically admitting that BC is right that he was lying but yet does not actually defend himself for it which seems tbh really strange to me from both a town and scum motivation. he says "devils advocate" when he comes up with a town motivated scenario for lying as though he's trying to just tell BC what he is doing so he will drop it

i guess it comes down to what mattchew claims now

if he flips blue then that doesn't tell me anything about anyone else here really except for people who didn't say anything about mattchew until after palmar confirmed the bit about the nosy neighbor so i guess we will just have to take it as a lesson for blues from now on to be a bit more careful

i really just don't understand #3 but i have seen scum kinda give up when they get caught in lies before or martyr themselves so maybe it isn't so strange after all

filter
Good case, I can understand your reasoning.

On April 24 2012 20:48 Ottoxlol wrote:
From "area mafia":
And insulting the other instead of arguing will help a lot, good tactic. Next you will claim JK right?