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On August 24 2012 09:45 WeeTee wrote:Hey Lvdr. I might elaborate that I disagree with the Lurker policy in part because it establishes a guideline for the scum to act upon, this is a Newbie game so as long as people are trying to participate I will not be basing any votes on Lurking at least for the first day. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:14 Shady Sands wrote:
Ok Lvdr, you were the last one in, and I know you're an experienced player, so I'm going to ask you for a scum read now. Who do you read as scummy based on their posts so far, and why? Shady mentioned that you had experience in the game already so could you analyse some of the content at a better standard than 'you didn't write much'.
Help us all get the ball rolling!
Ok that definitely sounded suspicious to me. You shouldn't act like you are relying on other players to scumhunt for you. Shady expressed the same sentiment but he has been very active so far but all you did was agree with Shady. You gotta contribute more than that!
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should read:
On August 24 2012 09:51 thrawn2112 wrote:
Ok that definitely sounded suspicious to me. You shouldn't act like you are relying on other players to scumhunt for you. Shady expressed the same sentiment but he has been very active so far and all you did was agree with Shady. You gotta contribute more than that!
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On August 24 2012 09:51 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 09:03 Lvdr wrote:
Shady this is like the third game I've played with you in the last few days. If you don't know my lurker policy you must be thick as a brick.
Policy: LYNCH LURKERS. Hopefully there are no lurkers and we can vote scumreads. If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan. FWIW I think what happened last game was that you got me lynched when I rolled town, in spite of me being the most active D1 poster by far, so I'm not sure how you could say that your focus on lurkers caused you to play poorly in the last game.
you know... my whole obsession with archrun and the vig shot on him N1 thing
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On August 24 2012 09:56 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:54 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 09:51 Shady Sands wrote:On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 09:03 Lvdr wrote:
Shady this is like the third game I've played with you in the last few days. If you don't know my lurker policy you must be thick as a brick.
Policy: LYNCH LURKERS. Hopefully there are no lurkers and we can vote scumreads. If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan. FWIW I think what happened last game was that you got me lynched when I rolled town, in spite of me being the most active D1 poster by far, so I'm not sure how you could say that your focus on lurkers caused you to play poorly in the last game. you know... my whole obsession with archrun and the vig shot on him N1 thing Ah, I wasn't around for that.... being dead, thanks to you. j/k I tunneled you just as hard that game, no hard feelings.
yeah of course.. it was a case of extremely active townies yelling at each other with bad results for both
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On August 24 2012 09:58 Lvdr wrote:
Lets leave previous games in the past.
For what its worth I think Shady is Town, he's doing a good impression of his town meta.
By that you mean examining and questioning everything he possibly can? I gotta agree with that.
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On August 24 2012 10:23 WeeTee wrote:
I hear on the grape vine that posting lots makes you look like town....
But then damn you meta comes into play!
In my opinion Shady is neither town or scum.
Could you give your best guess and reason why? You gotta give us something to work with. It is difficult when you think about meta but you should at least try to make a read. After what I thought of your other post it's looking like you aren't eager to contribute.
On August 24 2012 09:51 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:45 WeeTee wrote:Hey Lvdr. I might elaborate that I disagree with the Lurker policy in part because it establishes a guideline for the scum to act upon, this is a Newbie game so as long as people are trying to participate I will not be basing any votes on Lurking at least for the first day. On August 24 2012 09:14 Shady Sands wrote:
Ok Lvdr, you were the last one in, and I know you're an experienced player, so I'm going to ask you for a scum read now. Who do you read as scummy based on their posts so far, and why? Shady mentioned that you had experience in the game already so could you analyse some of the content at a better standard than 'you didn't write much'.
Help us all get the ball rolling! Ok that definitely sounded suspicious to me. You shouldn't act like you are relying on other players to scumhunt for you. Shady expressed the same sentiment but he has been very active so far but all you did was agree with Shady. You gotta contribute more than that!
I also wanna hear what mkfuba, kush, alsn, Spaghetticus, and Dandel Ion are thinking. More so mkfuba kush and spaghetti because dandel is sleeping and alsn already promised a post.
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On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 10:23 WeeTee wrote:
I hear on the grape vine that posting lots makes you look like town....
But then damn you meta comes into play!
In my opinion Shady is neither town or scum. Im agreeing with the other noob here. Number 1, I don't think looking at the meta is an effective way of determining anything. Therefore, like weetee i have no idea what shady is. If i had to suspect someone its speghetticus, who is the perfect combination of bandwagoning and being quiet to remain off the radar. Also thrawn...this dude is just appointing himself town leader with his epically long posts with quotes etc, also intiating all topics of discussion.
Just wait till things start getting interesting if you wanna see some epically long posts with quotes
It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him. Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking.
Hmm you must not have read all the posts I made disagreeing with people who said a lurker lynch is the only way to go. What you said I said and what I said are almost the exact opposite.
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On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote:
This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!"
I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here:
@kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations.
I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads)
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On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way.
What do you think about my read on lvdr?
On August 24 2012 11:27 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote:
This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!" I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here: Show nested quote +@kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads)
On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide.
Arguing about what you would have done if you were mafia is not the best way defend yourself, I get a null read from that.
On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
You're 85% sure? First you open the game with "I dont wana lurk but I got nothing to say TT." Then you suspect me of being scum because of a reason I already pointed out was flawed:
On August 24 2012 11:09 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote:
It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him. Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. Hmm you must not have read all the posts I made disagreeing with people who said a lurker lynch is the only way to go. What you said I said and what I said are almost the exact opposite.
And now you are 85% sure that Lvdr is mafia because of a reason someone other than you came up with? If you're going to assign such a high probability to someone being scum you should make your own case against them instead of borrowing someone else's.
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On August 24 2012 12:54 Lvdr wrote:
Shady has been accused of intentionally misinterpreting things before, but it has happened a lot when he is town. However, def is a point worth paying attention to.
Kush is my #1 scum read right now based on his 85% sure post. There is no real evidence and so it only spreads suspicion without anything to back it up. Please make better reads and use evidence.
##FOS: MKFUBA
##FOS:Kushm4sta
I agree with the FOS on kush and your meta read on shady but I really want to get some actual reads from mkfuba before deciding on him.
As far as kush goes, my suspicion on him goes beyond the "85% sure" post. I want to see his answer to this:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 12:50 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him. Could you clarify what you mean by this? It strikes me as odd that you would say this since no townie should know who the other townies are. So the argument you use against Lvdr can be turned against you as well. What makes you think that the players Lvdr is targetting aren't scum?
and this:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 12:06 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. What do you think about my read on lvdr? Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:27 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote:
This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!" I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here: @kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads) Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Arguing about what you would have done if you were mafia is not the best way defend yourself, I get a null read from that. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him. You're 85% sure? First you open the game with "I dont wana lurk but I got nothing to say TT." Then you suspect me of being scum because of a reason I already pointed out was flawed: Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:09 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote:
It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him. Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. Hmm you must not have read all the posts I made disagreeing with people who said a lurker lynch is the only way to go. What you said I said and what I said are almost the exact opposite. And now you are 85% sure that Lvdr is mafia because of a reason someone other than you came up with? If you're going to assign such a high probability to someone being scum you should make your own case against them instead of borrowing someone else's.
Also, I'm sure we're all eagerly awaiting dandel lon's 2nd post.
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@kush
something I learned D1 of my first game was just because someone is wrongly accusing you doesn't mean that they're scum
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On August 24 2012 13:21 kushm4sta wrote:
Everyone is focusing on how I said 85 percent... That was just a completely arbitrary percentage based on how convinced I was from Alsn's post. Maybe I'm easily swayed but I feel like Alsn truly revealed lvdr's mo.
What is your read on me? I'm questioning you quite a bit, does that make me scum? If you post some, as you said, "dumb shit" then people are definitely going to wonder about it.
Did you read my thoughts on alsn's description of lvdr? I think my explanation makes sense given that the point of the game is scumhunting, and asking people for their reads is part of scumhunting.
On August 24 2012 11:27 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote:
This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!" I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here: Show nested quote +@kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads)
If you're town just know that it's no hard feelings in any way.... sometimes in this game people will accuse you of stuff and then you will have to defend yourself. You just gotta make sure and not do stuff like assign "arbitrary" percentages to your reads because people will want to know the reasons behind the arbitrary numbers.
I'd still like you to give a response to what you think about my read on Lvdr.
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On August 24 2012 13:49 kushm4sta wrote:
thrawn:
What i think about your read on Lvdr is possibly you are also mafia and you are protecting him.
So in other words, you didn't think about my read because I am guilty by association with Lvdr, who is guilty for accusing you. Guilt by association is a pretty weak accusation to make with the limited interaction that's happened so far, and calling someone guilty because they accused me is a path I went down my first D1 in a mafia game and I ended up lynching a townie.
On August 24 2012 13:49 kushm4sta wrote: I don't like the leadership role you took in the beginning and I think it reeks of mafia. You are playing the role of the townsperson in order to protect yourself except you are going overboard and acting as if you are the super townsperson. Fact: you are the best townsperson so far, in terms of questioning people and intiating discussion. That in itself should be suspect.
"Fact: you are the best townsperson so far, in terms of questioning people and intiating discussion" therefore I'm probably mafia? I don't see how that is the most logical explanation and I think it's confirmation bias caused by your unfair association case against me.
On August 24 2012 13:49 kushm4sta wrote:Your read on alvar is essentially that he is doing the same thing as everyone else. But he is making new people write stuff so that he can accuse them. What do I think about this random complicated meta? How the hell should I know. I dont even know how to check that stuff. Oh and who agrees with his meta theories, it's you.
Good cop bad cop type thing going on here. Except you're not cops your mafia.
##FOS:thrawn2112
##FOS:lvdr
And please don't think that Im mafia beaucse I'm spreading confusion or whatever. I know no one is going to agree with me but I just want to be able to say I told you so when these two guys who are clearly working together end up being the mafia.
Ok think about what lvdr said... he asked people who hadn't given a single read yet for their reads. How is this unreasonable and not a vital part of scumhunting? I see why you think he might be bullying on the new people because his post specifically called them out, but to be fair it was mostly the new people who weren't contributing at that time.
Your accusation of lvdr is very similar to a bad lynch I caused for a townie in NMMXXIV so I can accept your motivation as being similar to my own during that game. I'm going to back off for now because of that, but don't expect me to allow you to make cases you are certain about without giving good reasons supporting them.
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On August 24 2012 14:16 Dandel Ion wrote:Alright, I'm back. Very pleased with the activity levels so far  Gonna read the thread in detail now. But first: @thrawn: Concerning this post of yours: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=5#88Do you still want my answer? I can clarify what I meant np, but the topic of lurkers seems almost redundant judging by the amount of posts. Just toss me a quick yes or no.
Yeah go ahead plz, but I'd rather hear your thoughts on everything else that's happened. Just to clarify my stance on the lurker policy... I'd rather vote for a scum candidate but if there are none or we can't agree on a good one then a lurker lynch is the next best option.
And yeah, the activity so far has been a lot better than my first game so I'm optimistic that hardcore lurking won't be an issue as long as we don't start slacking on pressuring people to post.
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On August 24 2012 15:06 WeeTee wrote:Hi all, sorry for not regularly posting I have Uni commitments and such. I have read through the current content, and every ones filters. It seems to me that everyone has taken a disliking to kushm4sta's quote "Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him." Even for a newbie like me I was like .... But I think that a real scum wouldn't reveal information in this clumsy manner and I know i'm not directing any suspicion there as kush is too easy of a target to pick off. I did however notice that Alsn did put a FOS on Kush; to me this seems like Alsn nibbled at the bait, sensing his opportunity to take a weak player down. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote:
Also thrawn...this dude is just appointing himself town leader with his epically long posts with quotes etc, also intiating all topics of discussion. It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him.
Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. (Emphasis mine) I like that you are starting to contribute to the discussion. I don't, however, agree with your conclusion. If you look at the following post(long, so spoilered it): + Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:03 Lvdr wrote:
Shady this is like the third game I've played with you in the last few days. If you don't know my lurker policy you must be thick as a brick.
Policy: LYNCH LURKERS. Hopefully there are no lurkers and we can vote scumreads. If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan. Your experience of how mafia players lurk during newbie games is something I don't have so I don't share your commitment to a flat out "only lynch a lurker during D1" plan. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 08:55 Spaghetticus wrote:
@Thrawn
If the worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched, I don't see how town can possibly eventuate victorious. Lurking is an aspect of scum behaviour, or of poor play, and should be treated as such. You seem to propose it as some sort of tie breaking mechanism, but I believe this to be an over-simplification.
In day 1, there will be extremely little information to go by. Lurking will almost certainly be the biggest tell as to the value/alignment of a player. I don't think that "worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched" but I don't think that D1 is the time to do it. Of course there are always exceptions...such as the player who has 4 posts at the end of D1, he's sheeping the popular cases, and never offers any original reasoning for his votes. But yeah, hopefully lurking won't be an issue. I expect all this talk about lurker policy will help achieve that. And this disagreement isn't that big of an issue to me, because if I have a case worth lynching someone over then it should be a strong enough case to convince everyone else. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:27 Shady Sands wrote:On August 24 2012 09:25 Lvdr wrote:
Wait has everyone posted already? I think so. Right now I'm concerned about Kush. His post at the very best is completely useless to town. That post also caught my eye and I suggested that he comment on the current discussion but so far there's been nothing. Kush it's not too big a deal this early on but the longer you wait the worse it's going to look. In this post thrawn argues with Lvdr about the lyrker lynch policy and makes clear and concise arguments and in fact comes to the conclusion that the policy post did it's job in that it put focus on starting discussion. Something which is good for town. You then immediately jump to the conclusion that he must be scum that wants to look like town. I feel this is overly aggressive on your part and while it's entirely possible that you are just feeling attacked right now and reacting a bit emotionally, please understand that things are not personal. If you are in fact a townie trying to cast blame on someone you suspect as scum, you should use clearly articulated points with a clear explanation of the basis of your argument. So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting. FoS kushm4sta I will put a FoS on Alsn for this But it is undeniable that kushm4sta is rubbing everyone the wrong way. Let me know what you think about Alsn Fos-ing Kush, Does Alsn see an easy opportunity to take someone out? and why is he the only one that chirped up for the obvious?
Why did you pick Alsn out of the people who were supsicious of kush? lvdr put a FOS on kush after Alsn did, and lvdr's case against kush was only composed of:
On August 24 2012 12:54 Lvdr wrote:
Kush is my #1 scum read right now based on his 85% sure post. There is no real evidence and so it only spreads suspicion without anything to back it up. Please make better reads and use evidence.
##FOS:Kushm4sta
whereas Alsn's case was much more thorough:
On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
In this post thrawn argues with Lvdr about the lyrker lynch policy and makes clear and concise arguments and in fact comes to the conclusion that the policy post did it's job in that it put focus on starting discussion. Something which is good for town.
You then immediately jump to the conclusion that he must be scum that wants to look like town. I feel this is overly aggressive on your part and while it's entirely possible that you are just feeling attacked right now and reacting a bit emotionally, please understand that things are not personal. If you are in fact a townie trying to cast blame on someone you suspect as scum, you should use clearly articulated points with a clear explanation of the basis of your argument.
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta
What is your read on lvdr?
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On August 24 2012 15:35 WeeTee wrote:
Leaders be leaders.
@dandel
I'm not interested in your negativity. I'm simply making my point.
My first quote had my message
"I did however notice that Alsn did put a FOS on Kush; to me this seems like Alsn nibbled at the bait, sensing his opportunity to take a weak player down."
I see my mistake in saying "the only one that chirped up", which thrawn just pointed out.
please disregard that comment.
Still I find it amazing how instead of just answering a question we need to nit pick.
Super encouraging.
You say it was a mistake for accusing Alsn of being "the only one that chirped up," so I guess we have to leave it at that. But we don't disregard comments.
Once again:
On August 24 2012 15:20 thrawn2112 wrote:
What is your read on lvdr?
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Alright I'm tired. See you guys when I wake up, and WeeTee I still want that read from you.
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On August 24 2012 17:54 kushm4sta wrote:
Wow guys everyone wants to kill me because I'm annoying or something and everyone hates me?? Reading this thread makes me want to cry. Honestly I will try harder but if you kill me let me just say that would be a huge mistake beacuse I am no ordinary townsperson. I am the jailkeeper so yeah you really shouldn't kill me.
For now I'm going to ignore the jailkeeper claim, because it fits the idea of you being town and pissed that everyone is jumping all over you and you don't know what to do and are claiming JK from desperation. It also fits your agenda if you are mafia and trying to scare people into not voting for you. Shady thinks that the 2nd option is more likely I don't have a reason to believe one or the other. You're gonna have to show that you're town by giving some reads with well explained thought processes.
So on that point, who do you think is scum and why?
Shady, you put an FOS on lvdr so that topic's gonna be my next post.
Also WeeTee, I asked you for your read on lvdr because I think it's relevant to your post about Alsn. This is the 4th time I've asked you for that read and you've posted in the thread 4 times since I originally asked for it. Can you please provide it?
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On August 25 2012 02:06 thrawn2112 wrote:
Shady thinks that the 2nd option is more likely I don't have a reason to believe one or the other.
should say "Shady thinks that the 2nd option is more likely but I don't have a reason to believe one or the other
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On August 25 2012 02:21 Shady Sands wrote:First off, reserving judgment on Kush is bad. Lengthening the amount of time we talk about Kush is going to shorten the amount of time we have to talk about more substantial cases like Lvdr.
You would rather the town ignore kush and instead talk about lvdr yet you voted for kush and put a FOS on lvdr? Could you clarify what you meant by "more substantial?"
And yeah I'm still looking at your case against lvdr, going through his filter now.
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EPT
