EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXIV
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
After catching up with the latest Mafia (XXIII), I feel like we can do a good job on catching the scums using similar policies. Even with warnings, scums always tend to be passive and go for the safer routes. Let's pay close attention to this. Last game, GK wasn't the most lurky player, it wasn't the sole motive for Hopi's last-minute call. It was his unwillingness to take risks, and going for the most obvious cases, and overall passiveness that led to his demise (and a little bit of bad luck, I'll admit.) I will be using similar rationale to try to locate the scummiest players, and hope you guys do the same. Lurkiness will be a factor, and a very strong one, but not the sole factor, let's keep this in mind. @Shady Sands Lynch all lurkers. That's how town caught scum in XXIII. But don't overly rely on this, scum can fake D1 activity pretty well. Observe, observe, and observe. If someone acts strangely, lynch them. This includes checking everyone's metas from previous games. All players here--please list all the games you have played previously, as well as which roles you played, along with filters for your posts. Here are my links: My XXIII Filter, where I was scum My XXII Filter, where I was Mason with Keirathi Regarding meta. As mentioned in earlier mafias, metas are good to keep in mind, but they are weak to base your arguments on. What we want to look at people's earlier games are their reasoning, their ferocity in detecting and attacking suspicious behavior, and their general ability to detect flaws in arguments. Even with equal roles, one player will most likely not post in the same manner or the same tone as in past games. If someone isn't forthcoming with information ("I have a read but I'm not going to share it because of blah") lynch them. If someone isn't actively pushing new cases with their posts, press them on it. Stop OMGUS wars. They're not productive. If two people are OMGUSing each other, tell them to stop, don't just sit there and let them keep yelling at each other. The only ones who win off mass OMGUSing are scum. Agreed, with a small remark on the bolded part. While I wholeheartedly agree we shouldn't be passive, I don't think we should jump too fast to conclusions. In all the mafias I have read, there were many bad townies (and blues), that were unclear and illogical, and ended up dead because of it. In XXIII, Hapahauli identified this very well. However, we should always strive for clarity and activeness. From my readings, these are the two master traits we must have if we want to win as townies. This being said, I will strike with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy these virtues! | ||
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On August 15 2012 10:55 Solarsail wrote: O WOW IM BEING PAID ATTENTION TO ITS ALL I DREAMED OF Let's go with the meta-meta-analysis of tiny comments without adding anything new, that's sure to help. When Shady Sands stops the 'thing' he has going I'll vote for who you're "paying attention to" because that's an objective measure appreciated by town players everywhere. Solarsail, I do not like this "why is everyone against me" attitude of yours. Initially I thought you were genuinely feeling injustice being attacked so early, most likely due to inexperience, but now I feel your tone is a little too insistent and exaggerated. You are not contributing to finding scum, and are playing the "boohoo" card a little too heavily. I have a feeling this is intentional, as a normal and inexperienced person by now should have realized that this would not be the way to go as a townie. On August 15 2012 10:55 Solarsail wrote: Hey Shady this guy is VERY SUSPICIOUS for saying exactly the same as me and I think you should get right on questioning him into the ground. I feel very strongly about this, and will certainly defend it. You, however, don't seem to do so. Why would you say this: the most important thing I saw is that the town needs to stay active and stay on point. And immediately afterwards fill this thread with: Because I've played one game of Mafia in my life, it was on another forum and that happened. But I forgot that "Newbie" in the title means that everyone is a fucking veteran and doesn't need to be told anything. On August 15 2012 10:20 Solarsail wrote: If you don't stop I will vote you. On August 15 2012 10:36 Solarsail wrote: To get you to stop quoting me. It's NOT HELPING ANYONE. Go post about someone else. And many other posts which I will not bother quoting. Please explain, granted you feel strongly about what I've reiterated, how your posts are "on point" and how they are contributing to finding scum. Scum or townie, this play of yours is horrible, and will not help anyone but scum to achieve their goals. | ||
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Why are you so insistent in people posting their filters? Three clicks and I've found yours in XXIII: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874&user=270373 It makes you seem like you are trying too hard to be pro-town... why would a regular townie bother to be this strict about something so easily obtainable? | ||
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First off, I have to say that Shady Sands seems scummy to me. My main arguments are: 1) The way he tries to appear a pro-town cop + Incoherence + Show Spoiler + a) In his first post, he already starts declaring everyone to post their filters from previous game. He, later, pressures people to put it up, multiple times, as if he is already assuming authority. This gets reiterated in later posts, where he urges people to do something that is clearly helpful for analyzing the town. This also implies that he is willing to read these threads and carefully pin out what everyone's meta is. I'm sure you all can agree on this. Why would he insist on something that he is not willing to use? So after this post, I painted in my mind the image of someone who would be very precise with his research. However, he incoherently fails to address some points and forgets some minor details in his writings. He fails to address my first and third posts entirely, which established some small (and I will concess, not too significant) discrepancies in his policy. He forgets to mention his attempt on JHyut in: I explicitly stated that I'm moving to YH because I find his behavior even scummier than Thrawn's or Solar's When, a couple of posts above, he had just made a direct anti-town accusation over him. This may seem small, but it seems odd to me that someone who gives out the appearance of a pro-active researching townie would miss out on this and send a huge amount of one-liners, point fingers and make accusations against 5 different people and not committing to them, constantly letting go and bringing up new cases. To me, he is simply trying to stir discussion in a very mafia-like way. b) His tone of authority. He immediately urges people to post, with less than two hours after the beginning of D1, reminding people to post their introductions. I don't think that is necessary, and is an empty statement which reeks of anxiety. He attempts to tunnel Solar Sail hard, then YH: Great job keeping up the pressure on Solarsail. (...) This is what I want everyone to focus on. Why would Solarsail do this? (...)Current town focus is on YH. He also further channels a sense of security with: Once the whole town has gotten a chance to talk and we have a full day's worth of posts to go off of, then I think we can say for sure who is scum and who isn't. Which is clearly not true, in this game we can never say for sure. 2) His impulse to quickly start being aggressive, and the insistence of this being due to "trying to start some discussion" + Show Spoiler + a) He immediately kicks it off with attacking Solar Sail, with lacking arguments already mentioned by DarthPunk. He dismisses it later as "trying to start some conversation". He also restates this argument numerous times, alongside with his "pro-town approach": + Show Spoiler + (...)If you look near the end of the XXII game, you'll see me doing now what I was doing then--prodding people with questions and keeping the town's posting rhythm extremely high. First, since it's only 12 hours into D1, there's not much material to work off of. That's why most of the posts have consisted of throwing around questions rather than 400 word case posts. Second, evoking responses, at this stage of the game, is critical. Without a solid base of accusations and counter-accusations in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. (...)I stated why I think pushing on Thrawn or Solar when they're not in the thread and can't respond won't generate the sort of discussion that ends up helping the town. (...)But I do want those sorts of filters conveniently laid out, since that does help town. (...)I'm doing this because town benefits when players formally commit to reads and are as explicit as possible. Also, in a few pages, he has already made cases against five different people. This seems too forced, These two points, in addition to DarthPunk's discussion with him, have led me to raise some eyebrows regarding Shady Sands' attitude in this game. He just seems to be trying too hard to look townie, which was one of the first things I caught on, in my third post. My suspicions on Shady Sands is fairly high, and will warrant a FOS should he keep up this boisterous behavior. HOWEVER, he is by far the one who has the most content, and thus the easiest one to find suspicious behavior and inconsistencies. I will not be so quick to judge him as there are many people who are simply not posting, and being very lurky. This is horrible for the town and, in my view, is much more troublesome than my suspicion of Shady Sands. Nevertheless, my biggest scum reading right now is YourHarry. His over-confidence in making bad one-liner posts and his nonsensical argument-lacking statements is truly mafia-like. The only argument he bothers to explain regarding GK's statement on Solar Sail is mediocre at best, since three people were on top of Solar Sail and attacking his emotional and damaging play for most of an entire page, and it is fairly agreeable that this was starting to become non-productive. I also don't like this meta YH's employing. He starts off by acting irreverent and confident, and only when he realizes people are starting to suspect him and attack him is when he starts bothering to add plausible arguments and defenses. He might just not be taking this game seriously, but I certainly sniff scum. ##FOS YourHarry | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + So far I haven't really been able to get much of a read on him. While he was posting one-liners at the beginning, as he said he was actually able to get his point across in them, granted that his point wasn't always a great one to get across (ie Oh I have a secret read but I'm not sharing it). But since his explanation, which to me seems to be entirely understandable, he too is giving off a town feel. Why would you not share a read you have? And if you aren't willing to share it, why would you even mention that you have a reading you won't share? What could you gain by saying you have a reading that you won't share? I can only speculate that someone else knows what you are referring to, because to me, this make no sense. At all. Please, explain yourself. | ||
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Im referring to the bolded part, where he says (Oh I have a secret read but I'm not sharing it). He also makes it a point to mention this earlier on, which seemed to go unnoticed: (...) I feel like the general consensus is that shady was reading too much into Solar's first post, as to any motives behind that I can't yet speak. And along the same lines everyone seems to feel that Solar is now playing a pro-town style be this scummy or not I feel it is something we need to watch for as even if he isn't scum I think it will sidetrack a lot of discussions and hinder the scumhunting in general. On one instance he mentions this when he is talking about YourHarry, and on the other, when he's talking about SolarSail. I took a wild guess in my last post, because I cannot fathom any reasonable explanation of why one would mention "I have a little secret but I'm not telling!" in a mafia game, and not once, but twice. Unless someone can think of a reasonable explanation, I'm calling him out to explain this. | ||
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On August 16 2012 09:04 thrawn2112 wrote: Yes, NH = YH, my bad. So to clarify since you didnt actually answer the question, were you saying that ochrow had a town or a scum read on yourharry? The "as to any motives behind that I can't yet speak" quote is a little ambiguous but I understood it as ochrow being suspicious of shady for shady focusing on solar's first post, but having nothing else to go on he was just leaving it at that, suspicion. What you have accused him of implying is a stretch. I have gone through ochrow's filter and can't a case of him keeping secrets about his read on solar. Could you find/quote/explain that one too? I do not think your case against Ochrow is very convincing and I believe that you are reading too much into his posts. First off, I don't have a case against him. I have inquiries about the contents of both his posts. After reading your reply, however, I understand the room for ambiguity. In his latest post, he uses (ie Oh I have a secret but I won't share). Initially I thought he was misusing the meaning of "ie" and was actually saying he has a secret he won't share. This was my only problem with his post, which is why I called him out. After reading his first post "as to any motives behind that I can't yet speak", I thought he was insisting on saying he knows something he cannot say (which is backed up by my initial though of him saying he had a secret he wouldn't share). However, after reading your post, your interpretation of his ambiguity makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clearing that up. | ||
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However, I now have a strong suspicion against you. 1) MAIN ARGUMENT: Why ArchRun? + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On August 16 2012 07:11 thrawn2112 wrote: FOS Archrun Archrun, you have made 3 posts so far and none of them have had anything directly to do with scumhunting. Can you tell us what you think about shady's claims concerning solar, myself, and newharry? You made an FOS on Archrun by saying that he only had made 3 posts and had no scumhunting. However, you completely ignored Golbat, who only has 2 posts with one-dimensional scumhunting claims, being that the FIRST thing he says is that you are the scummiest player, to which you respond with: Is this something I need to defend myself on? I am not sober right now so I don't think I could type a clear response till I wake up. Going to sleep now, I hope to wake up and see some more posts. And you don't mention it again. This seems to me to be a clear, 100% dodge. You give IRL excuses and forget about it, even hinting that you don't feel the need to answer it. You ignore Golbat not once, but twice. A townie thrawn would definitely bother defending himself to a direct attack such as that, and would try to policy-lynch both Golbat and ArchRun. However, you also didn't call JHyut, who also has 2 posts and even worse in quality than both the mentioned posters. Why mention only ArchRun and not Golbat, who called you out or JHyut? Either this is incredibly sloppy play, or you have a scum partner. If we assume the latter, then I can only think of: 1) You are trying to distract people from Golbat by making other accusations, and completely ignored JHyut. 2) You are trying to bus your partner ArchRun so as to draw away suspicion from yourself in case he comes up red. And, you completely ignored JHyut and Golbat. 3) You don't want to call out three people at once for whatever reason and chose someone other than your scum partner. I find this Highly Suspicious. SUPPORTING ARGUMENTS: 2) Your initial posts + Show Spoiler + You keep playing the new card, and adding newbie questions that will show other people that you are not very good at this game: + Show Spoiler + All snippets: seeing as this is my first mafia game, how much should i prepare? i'm already planning on reading as many guides as i can but should i read through completed mafia games as well? from what i've read in the other games your post count is something everyone really pays attention to how long do these generally take to start? in the rules where it says 'pms are not allowed in this game' does that mean we aren't allowed to send a tl pm to any other player? if so are there any other 'allowed' means of communication between 2 or more players outside of this thread? ok thanks. that's what i assumed was true but i just wanted to confirm it so i dont accidentally break any rules or miss out on a part of the game that i was assuming was not allowed. Does anyone have experience playing in a game where a serial killer was a possible role? If there did end up being a serial killer, how big a role did they play and how high would you rate the importance and achieveability of sniffing them out early? In other words, would it be a worthwhile use of the town's time and investigation to try to figure out who, if anyone, is the serial killer? I can see how it would be very important to find out who is SK early on, but I also can see how it might be way more difficult than figuring out who is mafia, and thus not a good use of time. One distinction between the serial killer and the mafia is that the mafia are in communication and will be working together while the serial killer is separated from both town and mafia. Any player who is suspected to be not of town affiliation could either be mafia or SK, so while in either case they are a good target for lynching, having knowledge of their actual role would be way more valuable than just an uninformed hit on a supposed non-town player. If there isn't an SK, then this line of discussion is a complete waste of time and we would be doing the mafia's job for them, which is why I asked if anyone has experience in games with an SK so that we all can get a better idea of what the risk/reward anaylsis should be on determining whether or not and when to focus on a potential SK. Concerning shady sand's post, this is my first game so I have no previous history to reference. I am not really worried, but am trying to learn from other people's experiences if there is any reason to worry. I thought I was pretty clear that I was undecided on the importance of SK, and that if SK is unimportant in D1 it's a complete waste of time to worry about it. My current opinion is that it is something to worry about, but not on D1. Therefore I'm not going to continue posting about it until something happens along the lines of way too many unexplained town deaths. Sorry for the bother, but could you describe what OMGUS means? It's one of the several expressions I see used in the mafia forums of which I have no idea what they mean. This by itself is basically meaningless, but granted that my suspicions in my main argument rely on you "forgetting (or pretending to) people", I can only think that your initial posts were paving the ground for you to not be taken seriously and not have such motives questioned. 3) Your lack of reading + Show Spoiler + I've noticed that you have skipped on a few details due to not reading previous posts. a) First instance, from the OP: If there is any sort of issue, you are unsure about some mechanic, or you are just wondering if your devilish scheme is even allowed, feel free to PM me, or ask in-thread with green text. Don't feel shy; these games are meant to be a place to learn and be open. Yet you ask all your questions normally, so you didn't read this or you pretend you don't know this. b) Second instance, questioning Solar: On August 15 2012 11:09 thrawn2112 wrote: What did you two say that was "exactly the same?" It was fairly clear what he meant, since he quoted the specific bolded part. c) Third instance, your latest discussion with me. Confusing YH with NH, heavily misinterpreting my quote saying that "I had a case", and then making another post once I had already retracted my inquiries on Ochrow (you might have been sniped, I don't know). With these arguments, I can conclude that either your play is very very sloppy, or you are trying to paint a picture of yourself as being completely oblivious to the gameplay of Mafia, so as to divert attention and giving a plausible explanation for these "slips" I mentioned. For now, I stay strongly opposed to having three extremely lurky players, and a fairly lurky one (Stutters695). I am inclined to dismiss you as just being sloppy, because my deepest concern is the very VERY high level of lurkyness in this town. Nevertheless, ##FoS thrawn2112 @Shady Sands Why have you suddenly disappeared? Why haven't you answered my post against you? We should start discussing our lynch candidates. I am inclined to lynch a lurker on day one. This will: 1) Give us a good chance of catching scum. During at least the last 3 newbie games, there was always a lurking scum or more. With 3 lurkers, we have a 1/3 chance of hitting the mark, instead of 1/4 (assuming that the lack of discussion in D1 will give us a random lynch) 2) Make the other lurkers be more active. 3) Give participial players more time to defend themselves. Is this agreeable? | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
bah, 1/4 ~ 3/13 =p | ||
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1) thrawn2112 2) YourHarry 3) Shady Sands Due to all of my previous reasoning, and the fact that none of them have given me reason to retract my suspicions. However, I am very firm on my decision to execute lynchers. Day one is filled with circumstantial evidence and is very easy to make wrong conclusions, and the probability of a miss-lynch is very high. What we DO know for CERTAIN is that lurkers are way more prejudicial to the town, because we cannot have decent reads on them. This is a game of reasoning and deduction, but for that, we need DATA, INFORMATION, which lurkers fail to provide. For this first day, since I don't think any of the suspicions so far are conclusive, I will vote for a lurker. We have Golbat , Stutters, and JHuyt who have been balls-out lurkers. I say we should lynch one of those. Now, speaking for myself, how will I choose? Let's take a brief look at their history: Golbat Has said nothing. Has two posts. He is lurker number one. He briefly accused thrawn with little evidence, threw some dirt on Shady, YourHarry and Solar. If we lynch him and he turns out townie, we will not have any new leads from that information, but will be down a useless townie. If we lynch him and he turns out scum, that will be great for us, but we will still have no leads. His accusations could just as easily be his scum buddies due to the fact that he hasn't done any sort of analysis on anybody. I would go even so far as to think that he will be mod-killed, due to not voting. If he suddenly posts now, we will have VERY strong reason to lynch him the next day, because posting some crap early on and disappearing until close to the deadline is a Strong Strong indicator of SCUM. Onward. Stutters He begins by agreeing that the discussion regarding SK is a waste of time he doesn't raise suspicion, doesn't do any investigative move, just says that and goes on to tell Solar to post better. Then he makes a longer post, telling Solar once again to stop with the trolling (which is fine, he was getting annoying), and making a small, non-compromising case against Shady. States some facts, then moves on, without taking an aggressive stance. Asks why getting filters is necessary (I had already mentioned this...). And just like that, he's gone. Basically he is on the same boat as Golbat. If we lynch him and he turns out townie, we will have lynched a semi-useless townie. If we lynch him and he turns out scum, great! But still no real info. So that leaves... JHyut Who begins with similar obvious cases against Solar, Shady, and YourHarry. Escapes having to post anything else saying "I'm sorry, but I don't think I can be of any more use until new evidence is posted.". Then goes on to FOS thrawn, not using any original evidence. Without explaining anything, says that Archrun was not scum, says that thrawn is not scum, then votes for Shady Sands, without explaining, and just like that he's gone. If we lynch him and he turns out townie, then thrawn will have some weight off his shoulders. He would have ignored accusing a greenie based on his lack of observation. Golbat will look about the same, because he was ignored alongside an innocent and we may figure something out on ArchRun as well (I still have to read more carefully his posts). If we lynch him and he turns out scum, Archrun and thrawn2112 will not look so good. He INSTANTLY dropped his suspicion of both these players, and this is resonated by my case against Thrawn, where I note a fishy situation between thrawn and either golbat,archrun and/or jhuyt. Here is a snippet so you guys don't have to go all the way back: + Show Spoiler + You made an FOS on Archrun by saying that he only had made 3 posts and had no scumhunting. However, you completely ignored Golbat, who only has 2 posts with one-dimensional scumhunting claims, being that the FIRST thing he says is that you are the scummiest player, to which you respond with: Is this something I need to defend myself on? I am not sober right now so I don't think I could type a clear response till I wake up. Going to sleep now, I hope to wake up and see some more posts. And you don't mention it again. This seems to me to be a clear, 100% dodge. You give IRL excuses and forget about it, even hinting that you don't feel the need to answer it. You ignore Golbat not once, but twice. A townie thrawn would definitely bother defending himself to a direct attack such as that, and would try to policy-lynch both Golbat and ArchRun. However, you also didn't call JHyut, who also has 2 posts and even worse in quality than both the mentioned posters. Why mention only ArchRun and not Golbat, who called you out or JHyut? Either this is incredibly sloppy play, or you have a scum partner. If we assume the latter, then I can only think of: 1) You are trying to distract people from Golbat by making other accusations, and completely ignored JHyut. 2) You are trying to bus your partner ArchRun so as to draw away suspicion from yourself in case he comes up red. And, you completely ignored JHyut and Golbat. 3) You don't want to call out three people at once for whatever reason and chose someone other than your scum partner. I find this Highly Suspicious. That being said, I think right now the general lurkyness of JHuyt + the lack of quality of his posts + this weird switch of votes + his affiliation with Golbat and the amount of information we can make out if he is lynched, I will go with ##Vote JHuyt PS: I noticed I got sniped. Dangerous timing there, Stutters. I will not bother changing my post, because I have to head out, but I think I will be able to log on near the deadline. Hope I sounded reasonable enough. Great job increasing the discussion in this eery end of D1! | ||
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**eerie | ||
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Your death will not be in vain! I will make sure your death will catch some mudblood scum! Thank you for your attempt, Shady Sands! May you rest in peace. I will think hard on the situation, and see what we can learn from his lynch. | ||
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Am catching up atm, should be hearing from me soon. I already read the whole thread, and now will start going more carefully through the filters, especially thrawn's, who was already my top suspect before Shady's lynch and now just seems to be in an even worse spot. I don't think I'll bother with shady's filter because he was just attacking everyone left and right, with few good points. However, Archrun's filter and especially mkfuba's filter should provide more information. Assuming that the vigi shot Archrun (doesn't make sense for vigi to shoot mkf), why did mkfuba get shot? This topic is generally overlooked, but I don't think we should ignore the reasoning behind mafia's NK. I'll see what I can find out, one sec guys! | ||
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Please take some time to read this post as it took quite a while to write and has many ideas in it. Reasoning behind mkfuba07's NK + Show Spoiler + Only major things that mkfuba did were defend solar, and defend thrawn2112. His mostly significant point about his defense of thrawn was: I don't see any real evidence of Thrawn and Ochrow coordinating their posts. The entire thing feels contrived to me. This makes me feel that this bandwagon that's started on Thrawn is at least partially supported by scums. This, in turn, gives me an even stronger townie read on Thrawn. However, the date of this post is August 17, at 3:30. Ochrows "lie", came at August 17, at 5:54. Then, later, at 8:58 of the same day, he says: I still believe that Thrawn would be a mislynch. Too much of his play has a townie feel to me. As for Shady... so much of his evidence against Thrawn feels so inadequate and contrived to me... Unfortunately, I'm now at a point where I have to decide between switching to someone I've made it clear I feel is town, and keeping my vote on someone who has tunneled that person for most of the game. Perhaps he didn't read in too much into Ochrow's post, granted that he was townie. So this gives me two options on the NK: 1) Some scum leading the thrawn2112 bandwagon wanted him dead so as to successfully lynch thrawn, who is indeed innocent. This is kinda weird, because there are many innocents, and blue's are not the most talkative ones, they don't like to stick out. No reason to think thrawn was a blue, in my opinion. I don't find this very likely, unless the whole scum team had some weirdass reason to think thrawn was blue, which I just don't find plausible. 2) Scum thrawn, thinking that this would be a possibility, killed mkfuba to relieve some pressure off of him. For this to happen however, he would have to be a very unobservant player and not note how weird this would be. But what's great about this is that thrawn ADMITS he is a blue player. So, according to him, he is a blue player that sticks his neck out and draws suspicion to himself. I find this much more likely. (option two, not the fact that he's vigi) 3) Random blue-sniping attempt. I don't think mkfuba showed some display of being blue though. He stick his neck out to resist the horde attempting to bandwagon thrawn, and sticks with it. A blue would just not want to draw that kind of attention. I don't find this likely. Reasoning behind ArchRun's NK + Show Spoiler + This here is what irks me. Either we have a serial killer, who wanted ArchRun dead, which I don't buy... I can't think of a reason for a SK to go after him. So, for me, it's either a vigi kill or a Mafia kill. 1) vigi kill? If thrawn is indeed vigi, it would make sense for him to make a vigi kill on Archrun. Being that the whole town is now onto him, killing someone he was sure was scum would make sense. What doesn't make sense, however, is how he could have been so sure that arch is scum, and WHY would he waste his ONLY vigi shot based on lame D1 speculations. I find this unlikely 2) mafia kill? If thrawn were mafia here, killing archrun would be outright stupid. The real mafia, imo, would also have no reason I can fathom to kill Archrun. He does not fit the profile of a blue, and he had some fire on him. He was in the thrawn bandwagon, so this just doesn't make sense. I find this VERY unlikely goodkarma's major post + Show Spoiler + He connects Thrawn and Ochrow with evidence on a shared QT. First, I’d like to bring to everyone’s attention the evidence that both Thrawn and Ochrow are sharing a QT. Shady has brought this up before, and so have I, but I don’t feel everyone has looked back on their filters to determine how obvious this is. Listed below, for your reference are the two posts that show this most clearly. Notice the timestamps, as they are identical. There is zero chance that one came in and later “copied” the other: SO WHAT? This is a horrible argument. You should know how long it takes to write posts, and mafia have nothing to gain by posting two equal ideas at the same time. You are thinking they both decided at the same time to post the same things so people would follow them? Now look also at the nature of the posts. What is discussed is almost identical. Both talk about Solarsail, and both conclude that he is not currently suspicious. Both also conclude that YourHarry is town. This point should bring up red flags on everyone’s radars, as this is simply not the prevailing viewpoint of the thread at the time, and they both give pretty weak reasoning for their conclusion. Both also discuss policy lurker lynching. Here, Ochrow FoS’s Archrun (in the same post), and thrawn FoS’s Archrun about two hours later. What are the odds that that many different topics were discussed by two people randomly at the exact same time without the help of a QT? I’d say pretty much none. I partially agree. SolarSail's defense seems reasonable, as does policy lynching. But the bit on YourHarry is just ridiculous. suddenly, out of the blue, YourHarry gives off a "town feel"? Their argument is based that YH's theory on gk and solar being masons makes sense, which, as I've stated earlier, I disagree, I think it's a stupid point which does not help (GK also agrees on this weakness later on in the post). The FOS on ArchRun is also equally suspicious. As I've stated before, there were equally suspicious lurkers, and Thrawn's arguments that "ArchRun's text was too suspicious" is even worse. ArchRun had three posts until that time, let's see what they were: + Show Spoiler + This is my first time playing, but I did read XXIII in preparation for this game and the policy seemed effective, because even if the scum is being active everyone has a a good sample of posts to analyze and hopefully make more accurate reads. As a Townee, I promote any policy that helps us catch scum, but we must back accusation up with evidence (which this policy should provided) and reason. On August 15 2012 10:20 Archrun wrote: To follow that point up, I feel like the scum threat is a lot stronger than SK because they are organized and know who to attack. A SK in my eyes is like a scum with only one person in it that can attack other scums independently. So if any exist in this game they shouldn't become an issue until later in the game. On August 15 2012 10:44 Archrun wrote: I think that the loss of articulation is inherent with any emotionally charged post, because it is harder to be swayed by emotional appeals when arguments are in written format and there is sufficient time to think about them. I don't think this point by thrawn has anything to do with knowing Solarsails meta. All he does is talk sillyness and make useless posts. Like I've said, Golbat and JHuyt ALSO makes useless posts. The only difference, is that Golbat and JHuyt bother making slight accusations, sheeping the lame and obvious arguments other people, especially Shady Sands, were also using (i.e. Solar Sail is not helping, YourHarry posts weird, yata yata). To me, however, those are equally useless posts, and you have to indeed be very very biased (or very very bad) to think the margin between what ArchRun was posting and what the other lurkers were posting would suffice to tunnel Archrun and not the other two. As you can see, he claims that Thrawn “copies him.” This is literally impossible as their post that was similar was posted at the exact same time. In other words, Ochrow is lying. He also makes a few interesting points here about how YourHarry is still not scum, and also some wishy-washy stuff (that I have snipped out for clarity… I meant to put it back in but I have 8 mins to post this look at time stamp you can find the rest sorry guys…) about how he doesn’t think Shady is scum but wouldn’t mind voting him anyway. He also comments on a few lurkers, which is a pretty value-less thing that is easy for scum to do. In other words, he is not actively involved in the scum hunting. But let me say this again, as it’s the most damning evidence against Ochrow: OCHROW LIED TO US!!!!!!!!! Another very good point. I've read before to see if there was any indication of Ochrow's point of view before that 5:27 post, and there wasn't. He either quickly dismissed saying the most obvious thing that came to mind, or this was a scumslip. I'd like to hear what he has to say, regarding this careless mistake. A townie Ochrow might have also made that mistake, by being careless, but like you said, the coincidence between him and thrawn is just too much. There is no doubt in my mind at this point that both Ochrow and Thrawn are scum. They associated with each other far too closely to not have shared a QT. On top of that instead of coming clean about it (or just not saying anything), as I’d suspect masons would, they turn around and lie about it to try to cover it up! f before now you were to tell me I could get all three scum pegged in one day like this, I would never have believed you. With this evidence, I am confident thrawn, Ochrow, and YourHarry are all but “confirmed scum.” GG. Watch out buddy. This could very easily be considered a scumslip. Since I agree that your evidence is pretty strong, I will just interpret this as an use of expression. But only scum can say something like that for certain. Be careful when saying stuff like this... My take on thrawn2112's situation My certain conclusion, based on the rest of this post is this: By golly, thrawn is a very very VERY bad player. If you read my analysis on the NK's and on GK's post, you'll see that no matter if he is scum or vigi or just regular townie, he is playing this very badly. I just can't pinpoint with extreme certainty whether he is a very bad scum or a very bad townie. I have a very strong inclination on a bad scum, because a scum thrawn who would kill mkfuba to try to escape in some WIFOM manner would seem to me less stupid than a Vigi thrawn, who with already so much pressure on him (before the nk i mean), would waste his ONLY bullet on such a CRAPPY hunch with so LITTLE evidence. What I'm going to do now is read more carefully the DarthPunk x Thrawn exchange, which seemed to me a little edgy, and will see what sort of conclusions can come from this with a thrawn lynch. I haven't gone through DarthPunk's filter yet and I try to see if his conviction on thrawn is as clear as goodkarma's. First, however, I will update my D1 suspicions on YourHarry, because his posting, however more frequent and more detailed, still seems to be filled with trashy talk and crappy arguments. Anyways, due to what I have stated earlier, I think the best option right now is: ##Vote thrawn2112 | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
When I say: Watch out buddy. This could very easily be considered a scumslip. Since I agree that your evidence is pretty strong, I will just interpret this as an use of expression. But only scum can say something like that for certain. Be careful when saying stuff like this... Understand, of course, that when I say "something like that", I mean saying that only scum can have so much conviction in a making a remark on peoples allegiances. Not that they are true, but I refer more to the tone in which it is said. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
This part (which I quoted from goodkarma's case against you... if you want to even begin to defend yourself, at LEAST read the main accusations against you carefully...): As far as the combined case claiming that we are both scum and are working together goes it is based almost entirely off of the timing of our post and the fact that Thrawn copied what I said. He said you copied what he said, when your post was simultaneous to his. Unless Ochrow, before 3:57, mentioned or hinted at your ideas, that statement is completely unjustified and untrue. How would you have copied him if there was nothing to copy from? | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
@Goodkarma What? From this: (...)I'd be happy to see any of them lynched as I'm certain they're all scum. This: (...)With this evidence, I am confident thrawn, Ochrow, and YourHarry are all but “confirmed scum.” GG. and this: (...)A cornered scum would have no problem lying about his role to get out of a lynch, and that's what I see is the case with Thrawn. You go to this: On August 19 2012 07:45 goodkarma wrote: Regarding Thrawn: I know that now about half of us have voted for him, but consider this: as of now he has provided both a reasonable defense and his own scum reads. While some may feel he has made "scumslips" in his choice of words, remember that Shady was guilty of the same thing and he was town. What I'm looking for is a town motivation, which speaks far louder than any one "scumslip." "Scumlips," quite honestly, can be made by town or scum. When I look at Thrawn's most recent play today, he started off quite poorly. He made some WIFOM argument about why he would never kill Mkfuba as scum, and used Mkfuba's defense of him in place of any real defense of his own. However, since then, he has made a post that directly addresses everything I brought up about him in my case post. He claims that the post timing for both him and Ochrow I pointed out is merely coincidence. While I still find that a little hard to believe, I'm looking at his actions too. He has made constructive, pro-town posts even when facing the strong possibility of a lynch. He has presented his own case against YourHarry, and has encouraged others to present their own reasonings behind their posts and not sheep behind a lynch bandwaggon. And then there's the matter of the vigi claim. While I stand by what I've said about a vigi claim being just as plausible for a scum to make, and that there's no certain way of knowing if his claim is true outside of a lynch, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here. It is plausible he vigi killed Archrun. It would be consistent with his actions. An important component of my case against him is that I believe him and Ochrow have a shared QT, and that their views are eerily similar as though aligned via said QT. If either Ochrow or Thrawn flips red, it gives my "shared QT" case point that much more validity, but I'm not willing to send one possibly innocent player to death just to see if my case is right. First and foremost, we hunt scum, and thrawn's most recent actions feel significantly pro-town to me. As it is, they're both unflipped, and, imho this makes this case point much weaker, and my case in general not the "sure-fire thing" I claimed it to be at the time. I was super-excited with my findings at the time, as putting everything together you get a very neat theory going where everything seems to nicely fit together. But players often will post on similar things at the same time, and that's plausibly the case with Thrawn and Ochrow. However, I do still feel that Ochrow and Thrawn posted so much that was similar at the exact same time my case can't be completely disregarded, and these two individuals should be looked at with extra suspicion. I definitely got a little ahead of myself, but going forward, as always, I'm going to vote for the player who I feel has the strongest scum read. If my shared QT case is to be true, Ochrow is just as important a component. He is my focus for the time being. While Thrawn still could be scum, I can't help but feel that we could be losing a strong town presence if he is telling the truth with his vigi claim. With Ochrow, on the other hand, we would lose pretty much nothing (as I will be discussing shortly). For now: ##Unvote Thrawn Regarding Ochrow: I've already presented much of my case against him, and I'm still waiting for his response. But let's look past that for now, and assume he's just another player that we need to get a read on. Looking through his filter, the first thing you'll see is that it's rather sparse. The second thing you'll see is he hasn't really had a firm stance on anyone. He even tries to defend this.: Even if my shared QT case point doesn't hold water, looking at Ochrow's actions, he is distinctly scummy. He is pretty lurky, and hasn't stuck his neck out on any case argument, spending much of his efforts on a safe "policy lurker vote" against Archrun. His favorite stance on others is pretty much a wishy-washy "I don't know." My read on him is he's a lurky scum with no interest in actively participating in scum-hunting. This alone is enough merit to earn my vote. That his flip will provide valuable information on my shared QT case point is an added bonus. ##Vote: Ochrow So I wonder, you say that thrawn has made great pro-town posts, made cases against YourHarry, and encourage everyone to be good little townies? Can you be more specific as to what made you make this HUGE leap of faith? Because, as far as I read, thrawn barely read MY attack on him, didn't respond to any of my major points and just seems elusive with his posting. Perhaps you wanted to bus your scum partner just a little bit, then changed your mind as soon as you saw it was going to get him lynched? Also, wasn't your "certainty" based on the fact that thrawn and ochrwo were scum? If you deem it unjustified, it seems very very weird that you still consider ochrow (now obvious) scum. Now your main line is that thrawn has proved himself town, obvious hasn't, and even though in your theory they were intrinsically connected, one of the is all good, and the other isn't? This is a typical inconsistency found in scums, and to me it can't be so simply ignored. @thrawn2112 Oh. Great. The first part was to explain why I voted for shady. Look at that bolded part in context with the rest of the sentence and it makes sense. The second part was based on the true statement that archrun and I shouldn't be the only people investigated. It isn't good for town to limit investigations to only two people, and because I accidentally mislynched a green player (shady) I realized that I was being too focused on my reads and not bothering to give a hard enough look at other players. So now you come with: First I want to point out that Jhyut only has 9 posts, and has not posted in the last 24 hours. That's not damming evidence but it is pretty shady. I'm going to quote his posts and bold the parts I want to talk about. I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks of how I'm interpreting his posts because I may just be biased against him because of his low post count. Remember this? We should start discussing our lynch candidates. I am inclined to lynch a lurker on day one. This will: 1) Give us a good chance of catching scum. During at least the last 3 newbie games, there was always a lurking scum or more. With 3 lurkers, we have a 1/3 chance of hitting the mark, instead of 1/4 (assuming that the lack of discussion in D1 will give us a random lynch) 2) Make the other lurkers be more active. 3) Give participial players more time to defend themselves. Is this agreeable? And this: On August 17 2012 05:14 Z-BosoN wrote: My current lists of suspects stands as: 1) thrawn2112 2) YourHarry 3) Shady Sands Due to all of my previous reasoning, and the fact that none of them have given me reason to retract my suspicions. However, I am very firm on my decision to execute lynchers. Day one is filled with circumstantial evidence and is very easy to make wrong conclusions, and the probability of a miss-lynch is very high. What we DO know for CERTAIN is that lurkers are way more prejudicial to the town, because we cannot have decent reads on them. This is a game of reasoning and deduction, but for that, we need DATA, INFORMATION, which lurkers fail to provide. For this first day, since I don't think any of the suspicions so far are conclusive, I will vote for a lurker. We have Golbat , Stutters, and JHuyt who have been balls-out lurkers. I say we should lynch one of those. Now, speaking for myself, how will I choose? Let's take a brief look at their history: Golbat Has said nothing. Has two posts. He is lurker number one. He briefly accused thrawn with little evidence, threw some dirt on Shady, YourHarry and Solar. If we lynch him and he turns out townie, we will not have any new leads from that information, but will be down a useless townie. If we lynch him and he turns out scum, that will be great for us, but we will still have no leads. His accusations could just as easily be his scum buddies due to the fact that he hasn't done any sort of analysis on anybody. I would go even so far as to think that he will be mod-killed, due to not voting. If he suddenly posts now, we will have VERY strong reason to lynch him the next day, because posting some crap early on and disappearing until close to the deadline is a Strong Strong indicator of SCUM. Onward. Stutters He begins by agreeing that the discussion regarding SK is a waste of time he doesn't raise suspicion, doesn't do any investigative move, just says that and goes on to tell Solar to post better. Then he makes a longer post, telling Solar once again to stop with the trolling (which is fine, he was getting annoying), and making a small, non-compromising case against Shady. States some facts, then moves on, without taking an aggressive stance. Asks why getting filters is necessary (I had already mentioned this...). And just like that, he's gone. Basically he is on the same boat as Golbat. If we lynch him and he turns out townie, we will have lynched a semi-useless townie. If we lynch him and he turns out scum, great! But still no real info. So that leaves... JHyut Who begins with similar obvious cases against Solar, Shady, and YourHarry. Escapes having to post anything else saying "I'm sorry, but I don't think I can be of any more use until new evidence is posted.". Then goes on to FOS thrawn, not using any original evidence. Without explaining anything, says that Archrun was not scum, says that thrawn is not scum, then votes for Shady Sands, without explaining, and just like that he's gone. If we lynch him and he turns out townie, then thrawn will have some weight off his shoulders. He would have ignored accusing a greenie based on his lack of observation. Golbat will look about the same, because he was ignored alongside an innocent and we may figure something out on ArchRun as well (I still have to read more carefully his posts). If we lynch him and he turns out scum, Archrun and thrawn2112 will not look so good. He INSTANTLY dropped his suspicion of both these players, and this is resonated by my case against Thrawn, where I note a fishy situation between thrawn and either golbat,archrun and/or jhuyt. Here is a snippet so you guys don't have to go all the way back: + Show Spoiler + You made an FOS on Archrun by saying that he only had made 3 posts and had no scumhunting. However, you completely ignored Golbat, who only has 2 posts with one-dimensional scumhunting claims, being that the FIRST thing he says is that you are the scummiest player, to which you respond with: Is this something I need to defend myself on? I am not sober right now so I don't think I could type a clear response till I wake up. Going to sleep now, I hope to wake up and see some more posts. And you don't mention it again. This seems to me to be a clear, 100% dodge. You give IRL excuses and forget about it, even hinting that you don't feel the need to answer it. You ignore Golbat not once, but twice. A townie thrawn would definitely bother defending himself to a direct attack such as that, and would try to policy-lynch both Golbat and ArchRun. However, you also didn't call JHyut, who also has 2 posts and even worse in quality than both the mentioned posters. Why mention only ArchRun and not Golbat, who called you out or JHyut? Either this is incredibly sloppy play, or you have a scum partner. If we assume the latter, then I can only think of: 1) You are trying to distract people from Golbat by making other accusations, and completely ignored JHyut. 2) You are trying to bus your partner ArchRun so as to draw away suspicion from yourself in case he comes up red. And, you completely ignored JHyut and Golbat. 3) You don't want to call out three people at once for whatever reason and chose someone other than your scum partner. I find this Highly Suspicious. That being said, I think right now the general lurkyness of JHuyt + the lack of quality of his posts + this weird switch of votes + his affiliation with Golbat and the amount of information we can make out if he is lynched, I will go with ##Vote JHuyt PS: I noticed I got sniped. Dangerous timing there, Stutters. I will not bother changing my post, because I have to head out, but I think I will be able to log on near the deadline. Hope I sounded reasonable enough. Great job increasing the discussion in this eery end of D1! Of course, NOW that you have a boulder on your shoulders, you suddenly start playing the pro-townie let's lynch lurkers role, because you can't find any other active townie to go ahead and try to lynch. As you have been doing, you completely IGNORED my reasoning as to why a Jhuyt lynch would have been best for town. When there was shady sands, who was a completely active player who was even less suspicious than you are now, you didn't even hesitate to join his bandwagon, with weakass arguments: On August 17 2012 00:00 thrawn2112 wrote: Just to show you how absurd of an argument this is, I'd like to point something out. You said that you saw both ochrow and I, within 30 minutes of each other were "trying to get a train on archrun going." Well, you and Archrun both voted against me within 3 minutes. If I use the reasoning you used to link me with ochrow as both scum, I must also link you with Archrun as scum. Really shady, your arguments against me have been quite a stretch, and over and over you have ignored my responses to your accusations. I do not think that if you are thoroughly reading my posts that you would still have the belief that I am scum. I will go over our conversation and try to figure out if I have been unclear in my responses to you, and I urge you to go through the conversation to see if you might have missed out on what I was trying to say. If we can't figure this out, then my only options are to think that you are scum and trying to set me up, or that you are town and making weak reads and terrible arguments. I think it is the former so I am going to vote for you. If it is the latter, I won't feel TOO bad about lynching a town player who makes bad arguments. Whatever happened to your campaign to get everyone posting their previous game filters? Based on what you have done since demanding filters from everyone, I don't see a pro-town motive for your request. Your reasoning in asking for them was that having filters can be very useful in getting reads on people's posts that are made in specific circumstances, such as what a player usually acts like when accused of being scum. After asking for everyone's filters, you haven't even brought the subject back up. What was the point of asking in the first place if you are not going to follow through with analysis? If you wanted to view the filters for your own sole benefit, it would have been way easier for you to just find the filters yourself. If you wanted the group to view the filters so that the town can make better reads, then why haven't you provided any analysis of a player's posting within this game to their posting within previous games? I can't figure out why you asked from them in the first place, which leads me to the conclusion that your filter requests were fluff. ##Vote Shady Sands Which is in DIRECT contradition to your so called stance on policy: Policy? A few people started talking about policy at the beginning and we never actually came to an agreement on that because of solar's trolling. Can we say whether or not we are going to FOS lurkers? Of course this doesnt not mean an automatic lynching, but it will help to keep everyone posting so that we can all get better reads. My vote is that yes, this policy should be put in effect, even though we have almost wasted the opportunity to do so. My conclusion is this, thrawn is mafia, he's shown so much evidence on and on, and he's simply trying to squirm his way out. And until goodkarma can better convince me of why he suddenly had a enourmous change of heart, ##FOS goodkarma | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On August 20 2012 04:56 thrawn2112 wrote: Z-Boson, a good town player wouldn't dismiss my case against Jhuyt. Even if you think that I am for sure scum, ignoring any case is not pro-town. Wait, did I dismiss it? I said: Of course, NOW that you have a boulder on your shoulders, you suddenly start playing the pro-townie let's lynch lurkers role, because you can't find any other active townie to go ahead and try to lynch. As you have been doing, you completely IGNORED my reasoning as to why a Jhuyt lynch would have been best for town. I didn't discuss it. I'll be honest, I haven't read it. Just as I haven't read as of yet YourHarry's, which as I skimmed through the pages, seems to be quite troubling. That is quite different from dismissing it. I will most definitely read your case on him, you can be sure of that. I think you greatly misrepresented how I've responded to people's cases against me. I've not responded to a small number of posts, but they were a few posts out of the many I've had to respond to. I've spent more than enough time responding to people's cases against me and I don't think most of the people that voted for me are likely to change their vote. I consider myself to have one of the biggest cases against you. Yet you still have not bothered to respond to it in a satisfactory manner. On my first post against you, had a fairly innocuous point, that was mainly to be intended as a "heads up" so you could better defend yourself. Refer to my point "your lack of reading". + Show Spoiler + On August 16 2012 10:46 Z-BosoN wrote: @thrawn2112 However, I now have a strong suspicion against you. 1) MAIN ARGUMENT: Why ArchRun? + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On August 16 2012 07:11 thrawn2112 wrote: FOS Archrun Archrun, you have made 3 posts so far and none of them have had anything directly to do with scumhunting. Can you tell us what you think about shady's claims concerning solar, myself, and newharry? You made an FOS on Archrun by saying that he only had made 3 posts and had no scumhunting. However, you completely ignored Golbat, who only has 2 posts with one-dimensional scumhunting claims, being that the FIRST thing he says is that you are the scummiest player, to which you respond with: Is this something I need to defend myself on? I am not sober right now so I don't think I could type a clear response till I wake up. Going to sleep now, I hope to wake up and see some more posts. And you don't mention it again. This seems to me to be a clear, 100% dodge. You give IRL excuses and forget about it, even hinting that you don't feel the need to answer it. You ignore Golbat not once, but twice. A townie thrawn would definitely bother defending himself to a direct attack such as that, and would try to policy-lynch both Golbat and ArchRun. However, you also didn't call JHyut, who also has 2 posts and even worse in quality than both the mentioned posters. Why mention only ArchRun and not Golbat, who called you out or JHyut? Either this is incredibly sloppy play, or you have a scum partner. If we assume the latter, then I can only think of: 1) You are trying to distract people from Golbat by making other accusations, and completely ignored JHyut. 2) You are trying to bus your partner ArchRun so as to draw away suspicion from yourself in case he comes up red. And, you completely ignored JHyut and Golbat. 3) You don't want to call out three people at once for whatever reason and chose someone other than your scum partner. I find this Highly Suspicious. SUPPORTING ARGUMENTS: 2) Your initial posts + Show Spoiler + You keep playing the new card, and adding newbie questions that will show other people that you are not very good at this game: + Show Spoiler + All snippets: seeing as this is my first mafia game, how much should i prepare? i'm already planning on reading as many guides as i can but should i read through completed mafia games as well? from what i've read in the other games your post count is something everyone really pays attention to how long do these generally take to start? in the rules where it says 'pms are not allowed in this game' does that mean we aren't allowed to send a tl pm to any other player? if so are there any other 'allowed' means of communication between 2 or more players outside of this thread? ok thanks. that's what i assumed was true but i just wanted to confirm it so i dont accidentally break any rules or miss out on a part of the game that i was assuming was not allowed. Does anyone have experience playing in a game where a serial killer was a possible role? If there did end up being a serial killer, how big a role did they play and how high would you rate the importance and achieveability of sniffing them out early? In other words, would it be a worthwhile use of the town's time and investigation to try to figure out who, if anyone, is the serial killer? I can see how it would be very important to find out who is SK early on, but I also can see how it might be way more difficult than figuring out who is mafia, and thus not a good use of time. One distinction between the serial killer and the mafia is that the mafia are in communication and will be working together while the serial killer is separated from both town and mafia. Any player who is suspected to be not of town affiliation could either be mafia or SK, so while in either case they are a good target for lynching, having knowledge of their actual role would be way more valuable than just an uninformed hit on a supposed non-town player. If there isn't an SK, then this line of discussion is a complete waste of time and we would be doing the mafia's job for them, which is why I asked if anyone has experience in games with an SK so that we all can get a better idea of what the risk/reward anaylsis should be on determining whether or not and when to focus on a potential SK. Concerning shady sand's post, this is my first game so I have no previous history to reference. I am not really worried, but am trying to learn from other people's experiences if there is any reason to worry. I thought I was pretty clear that I was undecided on the importance of SK, and that if SK is unimportant in D1 it's a complete waste of time to worry about it. My current opinion is that it is something to worry about, but not on D1. Therefore I'm not going to continue posting about it until something happens along the lines of way too many unexplained town deaths. Sorry for the bother, but could you describe what OMGUS means? It's one of the several expressions I see used in the mafia forums of which I have no idea what they mean. This by itself is basically meaningless, but granted that my suspicions in my main argument rely on you "forgetting (or pretending to) people", I can only think that your initial posts were paving the ground for you to not be taken seriously and not have such motives questioned. 3) Your lack of reading + Show Spoiler + I've noticed that you have skipped on a few details due to not reading previous posts. a) First instance, from the OP: If there is any sort of issue, you are unsure about some mechanic, or you are just wondering if your devilish scheme is even allowed, feel free to PM me, or ask in-thread with green text. Don't feel shy; these games are meant to be a place to learn and be open. Yet you ask all your questions normally, so you didn't read this or you pretend you don't know this. b) Second instance, questioning Solar: On August 15 2012 11:09 thrawn2112 wrote: What did you two say that was "exactly the same?" It was fairly clear what he meant, since he quoted the specific bolded part. c) Third instance, your latest discussion with me. Confusing YH with NH, heavily misinterpreting my quote saying that "I had a case", and then making another post once I had already retracted my inquiries on Ochrow (you might have been sniped, I don't know). With these arguments, I can conclude that either your play is very very sloppy, or you are trying to paint a picture of yourself as being completely oblivious to the gameplay of Mafia, so as to divert attention and giving a plausible explanation for these "slips" I mentioned. For now, I stay strongly opposed to having three extremely lurky players, and a fairly lurky one (Stutters695). I am inclined to dismiss you as just being sloppy, because my deepest concern is the very VERY high level of lurkyness in this town. Nevertheless, ##FoS thrawn2112 @Shady Sands Why have you suddenly disappeared? Why haven't you answered my post against you? We should start discussing our lynch candidates. I am inclined to lynch a lurker on day one. This will: 1) Give us a good chance of catching scum. During at least the last 3 newbie games, there was always a lurking scum or more. With 3 lurkers, we have a 1/3 chance of hitting the mark, instead of 1/4 (assuming that the lack of discussion in D1 will give us a random lynch) 2) Make the other lurkers be more active. 3) Give participial players more time to defend themselves. Is this agreeable? And whoops, you did it again: On August 19 2012 07:44 Z-BosoN wrote: @thrawn2112 This part (which I quoted from goodkarma's case against you... if you want to even begin to defend yourself, at LEAST read the main accusations against you carefully...): He said you copied what he said, when your post was simultaneous to his. Unless Ochrow, before 3:57, mentioned or hinted at your ideas, that statement is completely unjustified and untrue. How would you have copied him if there was nothing to copy from? I've hinted at you again and again and again that I was not satisfied with how you were ignoring my posts against you, how poorly you were reading them, and how badly you were responding to them, if at all. It's ridiculous when you take over two hours analyzing someones play, then they answer "um, what exactly do you mean by this?" and don't respond again. You see how I'm responding you here? I'm taking every single comment you made and answering them. Why? Because I disagree with them. These people are so convinced I'm scum that they just ignore most of what I say and twist the rest of it into evidence against me. That's a poor excuse not to defend yourself. I am convinced you are scum, but I am willing to listen to your defense. But yea, this defense doesn't exist, the one against MY main posts. Hence, I will continue thinking you are scum. And the quotes you referenced only look bad when you take them out of context like you've done; they were made days apart and the town atmosphere and conversations were very different. So if one day you say "I agree with policy lynching. Let's kill them lurkers." and then the other day you say: "Shady Sands has damning evidence on him. Let's kill him.", I am taking it out of context? The only reason for this to happen is if Shady Sands indeed had some mind-boggling damning evidence against him. But ok, you did say: (...)I think shady should get the vote, because I'd rather vote for someone who seems scummy after posting a lot than someone who seems scummy but might actually be a town lurker. So I won't nag too much on you there, even though I think your case against him was weak as shit. Keep your vote on me if you want but for the sake of scumhunting could you read my case against jhuyt and tell me what you think? l will. Right before the deadIine even. Your case on Him, and DarthPunk's case on YourHarry. If I find either to be stronger than the one I have on you, I certainly will reconsider my vote. Hope this time you have read my post, and hope this clears some things up. | ||
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Ok, just so I can see if I understand you correctly. You still find both thrawn and obvious scum (will say obvious from now on), but you find Obvious more scummy than thrawn, since thrawn is actually contributing and bothering to defend himself (at least against your arguments), you will go for Obvious? | ||
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On August 20 2012 06:17 thrawn2112 wrote: Zobalt Many of the accusations you made against me other people also made, and I responded to those. On the point of my reading abilities and me proclaiming newbie (which I admit is something I have not responded to until now) I want to point out that a lot of my newbie questions were things I posted in the thread before the game even started. And saying that I'm scum because I didn't (green /green) a question I asked before the game even started (which other people did as well) to me seems about the weakest reason you could use to call me scum. Having not ever played mafia before a lot of what was in the OP and guides didn't make sense because I had no experience of what context to apply the stuff I was reading, so just because I read a guide did not mean I could have understood everything I read. IS THIS WHY I SAID YOU WERE SCUM??? What a pathetic fucking attempt. In my last post, I clearly stated that it was an attempt to give you a head's up for you to play better. Right now you are just trying to waste my time, because no, you didn't respond to my post, because you probably skimmed through it and never read it again. I'm not gonna further waste my time on you, because it is completely counter productive. It's like talking to a child. I give up. | ||
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I simply can't process what YH is saying. His posting is utter garbage, his explanations make little sense... This behavior is quite scummy and has been like this since day one. Right now I tend to agree with DarthPunk, YH's posts about thrawn have been especially messed up. I'm sticking with thrawn, because I'm pretty damn sure he's scum, I find it extremely hard to think he is vigi, and I agree with the YH + thrawn scumteam. | ||
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On August 20 2012 08:32 goodkarma wrote: @YourHarry: But still if you have any thoughts on Obvious I'd love to hear them. @Z-Boson: I've asked you before, but I'll ask you again.: Can you please share your current thoughts on the Obvious/Ochrow case. What? I read your filter, where did you ask me? Why are you so pushy that we say this? To be honest, my main scumteam is: 1) thrawn 2) Yourharry 3)??? I haven't thought too much into the ??? but I have the following suspicions: ??? = Obvious, due to Ochrows suspicious play earlier on and general lurkiness ??? = You, I have yet to figure out if your "I am sure thrawn is scum" to "let's not vote on thrawn" has sufficient backing by thrawns posts. ??? = Someone else I've been spending most of my time so far figuring out if I am not exaggerating on the thrawn vote, which I've already concluded I'm not, and also trying to get a read on YH, which has been hard because his posts are amazingly confusing. | ||
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I seriously thought you were scum due to the way you were posting =/ GL in XXV  | ||
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YourHarry Extremely weird player. My main theory against him was that he was trying to do a lame bus on thrawn. Granted as thrawn was indeed vigi, this is not the case. However, his posts and comments generally are inconsistent, lack explanations, and keep changing. His posts are a diarrhea of WIFOM that I've decided are only here to confuse us with its vagueness, lack of clarity, and lack of purpose. Observe: I am having second thoughts about Thrawn. First thing that doesn't make sense if Thrawn is scum: If Thrawn is indeed scum then he left that "bread crumb" post so that he can use that as evidence to mislead the town that he is vigilante. But Thrawn denied this post as the "bread crumb" post, and in his initial claim, he never even referenced this post in the first place... Mega power WIFOM. Second thing that I am not sure about is that, claiming vigilante is so dangerous for scum. One weak point in this line of thinking is that Thrawn did ask the mod to confirm that there could be more than one vigilante. I think it is possible that scum Thrawn DID ask the moderator in private prior to asking publicly that there could be more than one vigilante. What is this supposed to implicate? Useless garbage. STILL, whether or not there could be two vigilante... a counter vigilante claim would definitely have made Thrawn look suspicious. Would it not? I am not sure scum would have taken this risk. He keeps babbling, and doesn't make a point. How in anyway is this post helping town? And we keep going: But I am scared to unvote, because I will be the next person to be lynched after Thrawn What is this supposed to mean? Is he a scum that wants us to think this or is he a townie that wants us to think that he is thinking... oh wait, WIFOM. This statement means CRAP. ... and more .... I am not super confident in my scum read. Upon my reading just now, I found Jhyut case's scummy. Sheeping Thrawn's case here, but Jhyut did not care whether I am town or scum - he wanted to lynch me. I thought he was something else, but I guess I was wrong again. HE is also lurking pretty hard, so he may turn out to be scum Crappety crap crap CRAP. He is randomly throwing around suspicions and not committing to anything. This in no conceivable way helps town. My case against Golbat and Darth was based on my scum read on Thrawn. Not sure anymore. Scumslip? How does he suddenly know that thrawn is not scum? Oh, that's right, he decided thrawn isn't scum with his brilliant and well thought-out argument, quoted above. I'm sure we can agree that his posts don't help the town and scream scum. Even though there was strong evidence that thrawn and YH were scum, due to the way they were playing it D1, I am still inclined to think he is scum. This requires much more thought, as we will have to be certain that we lynch a scum in the next day. Jhuyt He is a quiet and lurky player. He mentions possibilities, without compromise, and doesn't take a stance on anything. The more I think of it the more I find that either Shady or Thrawn is scum. But since my basis of suspicion against Thrawn is basically gone I really can't vote for him. I think this post + Show Spoiler + coupled with Thrawn's reason to accuse Arch is enough for me too consider Shady as scum. ##Vote: Shady Sands I have to go for the next couple of hours so I won't be here for the conclusion of the day, see ya later. Bases himself off completely off of someone else's arguments, and announces he will have to leave. He then makes complains about how wishy-washy YourHarry is, says it is urgent that we lynch him, and starts to make shallow arguments on GK: When I looked at the case GK made in this post I got the feeling that you might be scum, but I wasn't sure. When I couple that with your scumslip it makes more sense that he's right and therefore I think you're scum. The benefit of the doubt line was one that I was considering to cut out of the post because it doesn't add anything and I'm pretty sure I misused the expression. I should have said that while I do think you're scum I think that YH's behaviour is way scummier and so much more anti-town that a lynch on him is necessary so that we can have a clearer discussion. But still considering YourHarry's wishy-washyness more scummy. Gets attacked by thrawn, who basically states the same things I'm saying right now, and is defended with weak and contentless posts. He simply doesn't take a solid stance on anyone (except maybe for YH). He's generally much more lurkier and gives off too few to work with. Golbat Beastly Lurker. Joined on the thrawn bandwagon and disappeared. We should have lynched him a long time ago. This makes me understand why lurker policy needs to be so strong. If he was a civilian before, then we would be down a lurking civilian who was not helping at all. Now, however, we cannot afford another misslynch, and have to be more careful. But since he has barely any posts, it will be very hard to determine for sure what he is. goodkarma and DarthPunk I wanted to make sure that I wasn't skipping any details on the non-obvious choices. I've noticed some weird behavior on GK, which I've already mentioned. Since I've already gone through thrawn's filter, I can understand where GK could have found some reason to back off of thrawn. I don't think he is scum, as I can't think of why a scum would go ahead and say I'M SURE HES GUILTY, to backing off entirely. Scum generally take hesitant postures that lack commitment and conviction. I've read DarthPunk's filter carefully and wasn't able to detect anything too suspicious or compromising, as he has been making accusations and backing them up with well explained arguments. Also, both him and goodkarma have been making tons of pro-town and meaningful accusations. If one of them is mafia, it is not in this round that we will be able to lynch them unless we can pick up on something not yet noted. Stutters and Obvious to come. I'm sleepy and have to wake up early tomorrow. Please, be active, let me know what you think of this post and contribute your own ideas and suspicions as well. | ||
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and SolarSail of course. I've been ignoring him ever since his childhood days. | ||
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Well that was quick. Let me see if I understand. Now, in day 3, in a MYLO situation, you propose to. On August 21 2012 09:16 goodkarma wrote: Okay then. We need to be active today, and I'm wasting no time in getting started: @Golbat: You have a lot of explaining to do for your lurking, so please start there. Also, if you would kindly explain this quote: I've already explained what I felt was scummy about this, but in case you need a reminder: You seem more interested in staying alive right now than in actually scumhunting. "Not posting uselessly" is not an excuse for not posting at all. Even one one-line post explaining your absence would have been useful at this point, and you wouldn't even contribute that. You argue to not be lurking intentionally, but I would argue that yes, lurking for 48 hours is rather intentional. There's no way that you haven't thought up anything worthwhile in that time unless if between then and now you have forgotten altogether about this thread. And why would you do that if you want to "make a big contribution" that leads to the lynch of a scum? One more question: Why did you tunnel Thrawn so hard? ##Vote: Golbat Wait a minute. This is do or die for the town. You plan to consolidate your vote on someone who barely has any information on him and has been a hardcore lurker since day one? Because he tunneled thrawn, as if you didn't? Oh wait, that's right, you had a very sudden change of heart. But then, you go on and say that: (...)And finally there's the final vote count for day 2. I currently believe the Thrawn mislynch had heavy scum support. One reason scum would have for getting behind a candidate would be if one of their own also had strong support. If you look at the votes, and see where those who have established themselves as town have voted, I'm sure you'll agree the YourHarry lynch had some reputable town support behind it. And all of the current scum suspects are on the Thrawn mislynch.: Well that's a very convenient argument, to go along with your name not being on that list. Drop in the bomb, wait for people to sheep you, then escape, no compromises. It's also ironic you didn't think of it before, when everybody wanted Shady Sands dead, who was the top poster at the moment. I'll go ahead and post the day one votes. ShadySands (5): SolarSail, thrawn2112, SolarSail, mkfuba07, Jhuyt, YourHarry, YourHarry SolarSail (0): YourHarry thrawn2112 (4): YourHarry ShadySands, Archrun, DarthPunk, Golbat goodkarma (0): YourHarry Jhuyt (2): goodkarma, Z-Boson Archrun (2): Ochrow, Stutters695. Ochrow, YourHarry Same argument you used. Look at that, everyone on ShadySands list must be quite the suspects of being scum. Because, "One reason scum would have for getting behind a candidate would be if one of their own also had strong support." Except that he wasn't scum was he? This is because this argument is very weak. It only becomes suspicious when one target has a LOT of scumminess on him and a LOT of posts against him while the other looks so innocent and barely has anything substatial on him. This is not the case, because thrawn had a huge wall of text against him, not only the one you posted, but also the one that I did as well. DP also thought he was scum, and I will agree that the case against thrawn was fairly powerful. DAY ONE should have been the time we should have lynched lurkers. DAY TWO, maybe. Not day 3, with a do or die scenario, against someone who, as Obvious pointed out, is clearly not giving a rat's ass about this game. This day will be the target with the greatest case against him. I really don't like how quick it was for you to vote on golbat, and how quick some people seemed to sheep you. Regarding YourHarry, you went from him possibly being your third suspect to him being your main suspect with this post: On August 21 2012 17:59 goodkarma wrote: Regarding YourHarry: Sometimes the most obvious scum is the hardest to spot. YourHarry has a "meta" for sporadic and unpredictable play. But however strange, or different, or unpredictable his play is, if you were to look at the motivation behind his play, you can determine his alignment. With YourHarry, actions speak louder than words: -First, YourHarry is fond of withholding information from us. YourHarry starts the game by making a weak WIFOM case on me, claiming if I'm not a mason I'm scum. He withholds his read on me for a long time until pressured to provide it, and while here maybe you could argue he had some justification, this is a recurring theme. Over and over again he's done this. With this "mason case," with vote swapping history, with providing reads on certain people (most recently, Golbat). This behavior is clearly anti-town. Obviously withholding information would be advantageous for scum as it could make it harder for others to get a good read on him. Could a townie also do this? Maybe, but this is just the tip of the iceberg. -YourHarry is a fan of last-minute vote swapping. He has now twice last minute switched his vote to secure the mislynch of the top candidate. This behavior simply can't be ignored anymore. There is clear scum motivation here. -The use of WIFOM first, actual use of reasoning when pressured later. He already did that today with Golbat. He started today with soft defending him, and then decides he will actually "read his filter." I'll say that again: only after defending Golbat with WIFOM does he decide it's a good idea to read his filter. Then, finally, he decides to actually present a case which is in fact against Golbat. In other words, he's demonstrated a lack of interest in actually contributing meaningfully to scumhunting. -On top of this, today he has focused a large degree of effort on getting people to role claim. If my theory on scum's motive for the night kills is to be believed, YourHarry is trying to draw important town roles out of hiding as easy scum targets. There's loads of scum motivation to be seen behind YourHarry's actions, and there are several cases that have already been made against him. Yet somehow he seems to have avoided getting lynched. My biggest issue with lynching him, and why he hasn't been higher on my "scum reads," has been that his play is consistently bad, and it would be easy to mislynch a town YourHarry. But if you look at his actions, they fit a scum agenda. And finally there's the final vote count for day 2. I currently believe the Thrawn mislynch had heavy scum support. One reason scum would have for getting behind a candidate would be if one of their own also had strong support. If you look at the votes, and see where those who have established themselves as town have voted, I'm sure you'll agree the YourHarry lynch had some reputable town support behind it. And all of the current scum suspects are on the Thrawn mislynch.: Directly from the official end of day 2 post (minus the blue text): thrawn2112, as VisceraEyes, vigilante, was lynched! [spoiler=Final Vote Count] Final Vote Count: Thrawn2112 (5): Obvious.660 (1): goodkarma, YourHarry (3): DarthPunk, Jhuyt, Stutters695 goodkarma (0): Jhuyt (1): thrawn2112, YourHarry, right now you're my top scum read. ##Unvote ##Vote: YourHarry I encourage everyone to put together their reads, as there's still time for you to express your viewpoints before we consolidate our vote in the last 24 hours of the day. And obviously supporting or dissenting case points towards this case would be much appreciated. Your arguments are nothing new, it's what has been stated on YourHarry since the beggining of time. The only thing new that you add is that he is suspiciously wanting everyone to roleclaim. But why do you focus on him, and blatantly ignore DarthPunk's same remark: On August 21 2012 13:49 DarthPunk wrote: Sorry I am kind of busy and am not following the thread right now. but I agree with a mass claim. we are at the stage of the game where we need as much info as possible because we cannot afford a mistake. I feel really out of my depth here, scum are either afk winning or playing really well. The same guy in which you solemnly confided your trust in your "will": (...)I have played with DarthPunk before, and I’ve seen his scum play. He has been 10 times more proactive than he was in that game about sharing scum reads and I am convinced he is legitimately searching for scum this time around. Add to that that he’s come independently to similar reads as myself, and I feel he is my strongest town read right now. So all of you get behind him as your leader and consolidate your vote under him. There is a small (note: slim) chance that he’s scum, but you’re going to have to live with that. To have a chance of winning town needs to consolidate its vote and this is the best way to do this. Come the next night, I leave it to Darthpunk to leave his successor in a will similar to this one should he also get NK’ed. Also, you say these incredibly serious accusations: (...)There's loads of scum motivation to be seen behind YourHarry's actions, and there are several cases that have already been made against him. Yet somehow he seems to have avoided getting lynched. My biggest issue with lynching him, and why he hasn't been higher on my "scum reads," has been that his play is consistently bad, and it would be easy to mislynch a town YourHarry. But if you look at his actions, they fit a scum agenda. And you don't bother explaining what you mean. You just sheep around with the main case that has already been made, add something meaningless (if you want to give it meaning, please go ahead and attack DarthPunk as well), then hint at the most serious accusations you can possibly make and don't go ahead and explain what you mean. I agree wholeheartedly that YourHarry is scum, you can go ahead and check that in my filter , but the way you write this and the arguments you use make me feel very suspicious that you may be scum as well. Now I see that the only reason I had lifted my suspicions of you were mainly WIFOM, but your latest actions have definitely raised my eyebrows. Right now is the easiest time for a scum to slip, because any small mistake now will not slip by so easily. One more thing, you say that the night kills were not discussed in detail. Read my filter, if you will. Actually this night's night kills is what is giving me additional ammo on YH. That soon to come. ##FoS goodkarma | ||
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Wait, what??? On August 21 2012 17:42 DarthPunk wrote: Golbat did not post during the night cycle. and his last post was 2 days ago. will golbat be modkilled or replaced? To be honest I am feeling pretty demoralised about this entire situation. This game is incredibly difficult with the amount of lurking/ inactivity that has gone on. Not to mention losing 5 townies in the first 2 cycles. I am not sure if lurkers are even the right place to look at this point. I am going to sound out my thoughts on the page and be transparent as possible. At this point denying information to the mafia is less important than revealing Information to the last 5 townies. I know you guys are reading this I just wish I knew who you were. I have a strong town read on Goodkarma, but even with him/her I am not sure. I can see GK being scum. and if so I both applaud you and say WTF?!?! to the rest of town for being so shit. Z-boson has appeared town like and active but has just sheeped cases and not been proactive in pushing them. Pretty much a neutral read. Your Harry has been mental all game. Impossible to make out his motivations he is bad town (which is his meta) but this allows him to hide beneath this if he actually was scum. I read through XXI and I thought he was scum in that game. I was wrong, but this at least gives me something to think on. Everyone was pushing the Obvious/ Your Harry/ Thrawn train. Too easy. Something was wrong. I had a lingering doubt in the back of my mind but I did not argue against the Thrawn lynch at all because he was so scummy in my eyes. At this point I have no clear reads and anyone could be scum which doesn't help at all. Like you said yourself, please read through the filters. After my heavy attack on thrawn, actually being the first one to put up a formal and well explained case against him (with the archrun bit), and, as far as I recall, doing the same with YourHarry? Explaining while ShadySands shouldn't be regarded with THAT much suspicion and why Jhuyt should have deserved the day one lynch? After sticking with thrawn after you and goodkarma pointed your pitchforks at different directions? After I continued my case against YH even after you, for some reason, ignored all the "scumslips" and "hinting at external information" against YH once thrawn was innocent? And ALL of this after me taking hours reading everything and trying to make my posts as reasonable as possible, giving a detailed explanation regarding all of my decisions? You will say that I am sheeping? That's insulting. Please do like you said you would and read everyone's filters. I will do the same on the remaining people I have not yet attacked. Guys, we have to read and reread and read yet again EVERYTHING. The more we read, the less we have to guess and the better we can communicate with each other to find these scums That goes to everybody else, because right now it's only half the people discussing the most important read we have to make. This will basically guarantee our loss if there is not more contribution... | ||
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He has been fishing roles all game? I don't remember this, can you please find where? The only thing I can recall is him interpreting a dubious thrawn quote to say why he thinks thrawn is blue. You basically said what's been said all game. YH uses WIFOM, is inconsistent, keeps changing his mind without specifying why. This to me is very scummy, as I've made clear for quite some time. But I will one-up this argument, I think I found something that, in my opinion will give a strong case against him. Case against YourHarry I will not go over again how stupid and confusing and useless his posting is, how that looks scummy, etc. Ladies and gentlemen, the first thing YH says: On August 15 2012 11:48 YourHarry wrote: My meta: My first game, Mafia XX, where I was vanilla town My second game XXI. Again, vanilla townie. My third game. First half of the game, I am mafia goon. The game restarted and I drew vanilla townie. To summarize my meta, in the first 2.5 games, I am quick to make accusations and switch my vote players with little explanation. I decided to change my meta in game 3 where I drew vanilla townie. I played more conservative to avoid suspicion. I am not sure which meta I will choose this game I am not sure which meta I will choose this game .I am not sure which meta I will choose this game .I am not sure which meta I will choose this game .He clearly indicated that he wants to follow a certain meta. Apparently, he has already decided which one it is. He is thriving on confusion. Look at some of his quotes from previous games: + Show Spoiler + Release, I am not Grush. I didn't particularly find lazer monkey's post scummy. This is a newbie game. He is simply providing some guidelines on what townies should avoid - since (I assume) that his previous games have been tainted by vanilla towns claiming power roles. BTW, I am not OMGUSing Jingle. I just find it difficult to understand why he finds me scummy, since I think I explained myself and answered all of his questions. When someone is focusing his accusation on a player based on reasonable evidence, that someone could be town or scum. But when someone is stubborn about his accusation on a player, even after the accused player adequately explained himself, I think that someone is likely to be scum. Maybe he is not satisfied with my answers. If so, Jingle, please tell me what you still think I am scum. Here, someone may question whether my initial vote against Hopeless also makes me scummy for above reason. But as I explained, I don't particularly find him scummy and my initial attempt to incite responses from him and others did partially succeed - mostly in the forms of accusations toward me. ##Unvote ##Vote Jingle Release: I maintain that it was not an OMGUS battle, at least from my perspective. I had valid reason, at least from what little was available at the time, to suspect Jingle. And if Jingle is scum, my quick reconciliation is not necessarily scummy. At best, it's WIFOM. One can argue that scums would be hesitant to dismiss each other's scuminess, in fear that 1) obvious buddying may make both of them suspicious, exactly how you are suspecting both of us 2) other's scum flip will incriminate them. Either way, my actions on end of day 1 to place the one of the deciding votes on Hopeless (especially when I previously expressed my opinion that I didn't think hopeless was particularly scummy, I could have easily justified my vote against someone else) and my willingness to vote against Jingle now should make me unlikely to be scum. Also, in regards to miller providing a difficulty for town victory: miller counters mafia role cop and detective is soft countered by miller. Mafia role cop is gone and detective is still alive. So, miller's value to town is at extreme minimum. Of course, if detective was nonexistant, miller would be as good as vanilla townie. The reason why medic shouldn't claim is obvious. Night2, the scum would roleblock medic and nightkill the detective. Medic role claiming does not allow us to gather any additional information on alignment of other players. However, this means that we must come up with a consensus on who we want to lynch way prior to the deadline so that medic does have a chance to roleclaim if somehow he gets picked to be lynched. The reason for power role claiming immediately if they received the positive result is also evident. This is because what we will do today would be clearly decided: lynch whoever received the positive result. This also allows medic to anonymously protect the powerrole who got the positive result. The reason for claiming in order is because we don't want two power roles to reveal their identity unless it gives us additional information. This prevents second power role role claiming just in case they targeted the same player at night. I think detective claiming first makes sense, because it is a more important role - so this allows medic to protect him at night. This is some quotes from his previous game as townie. Notice the difference? He still throws information around a bit, but notice how it is toned down and how much more reasonable he seems. One of the first things I have said in this game is that analyzing meta is weak and doesn't constitute arguments. However, YourHarry has been constantly playing the meta game, and even said so himself in the beggining of the game. He has decided he wants to be as confusing as possible, as random, as wishy-washy as he can. Another thing that I noticed is generally not done is analyzing the nk's. Oh, Jhuyt just died, but he was such a strong scum suspect. O well, WIFOM, scum wants us to think that blah blah blah. Not in YourHarry's case. The only consistent thing he's done is be confusing. I'm sure we can all agree with that. I raise now two points: 1) Why would this be the meta to go for a town YourHarry? Isn't it weird how much better his play was as townie in past games? Why would town Harry want to be as confusing as possible? 2) Jhuyt nk was confusing as hell. This entirely fits YH's profile this game. I cannot for the life of me come up with a better reason to kill JHuyt other than just try to confuse town. Since YH right now is confusion in person, this raises an uncanny coincidence. But Z-BosoN! 2) is WIFOM and analyzing meta is weak! Well, imaginary doubting friend, I don't think that this applies here. YH is strictly playing a meta game, and not ONCE did he abandon it. He's drowning in WIFOM, but I doubt that he would have considered this when deciding who a scum YH would want to kill, because up until now, all we've done is analyze the garbage he jams on his keyboard, but not the overall picture. Let's stop wasting time trying to think what a scum Harry would do, and think more about how a scum Harry would act. So there it is folks, I think this makes a lot of sense, and should give you one more powerful reason as to why YH is SCUM!. Think about it and tell me what you guys think. I think this is the best option right now, I can't think of a stronger reason to lynch someone else. ##Vote YourHarry | ||
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On August 22 2012 09:55 DarthPunk wrote: I have reconsidered and am now FIRMLY AGAINST a role claim. I am still reading filters and trying to find something. But I want everyone to look closely at those who have sheeped cases and not actually scum hunted whilst appearing to be pro town. I think that is where we can find scum. Mind explaining why? | ||
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I was about ready to start my post when I read yours, so I mostly skimmed over it. I've read it though, and thank you for contributing. But my point about analyzing his intentions and such still stands, I still think it's useless. I don't think any of his posts have any intentions or any purpose at all other than just being random. @Obvious Well, he might just be not visiting this thread anymore, I dunno... whatever his reasons, he's insanely inactive and hopefully will just get modkilled... | ||
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@goodkarma Are you gonna bother defending my accusations against you since you are an "established townie"? @DarthPunk You cite a post you don't answer to. You say me attacking GK, an "established" townie is suspicious. Do you think my arguments are bad? Do you disagree with them? You say I then established him as townie despite my arguments. This is untrue, this is not what the "FOS GoodKarma" at the end of my post means. You raise some good points on your attack on Solar, but it is the first to come from you on him since day one, and yet you feel free to accuse me of not attacking him since day one? Most important of all, why did you invent the argument "he was a bit too defensive on SolarSail when I didn't include him as townie."? If it is indeed true, can you please quote it, because I cannot find anything that remotely comes close to this in my filter. Please, improve your arguments or at least explain them better. Just because you and gk are so sure of each other, doesn't mean that whatever you guys say is law and therefore doesn't demand explanations. This is a game of deception and observation, not feelings and trust. Oh, speaking of trust, you also suddenly, again without explanations , decide YourHarry is a better choice than SolarSail in a span of 10 minutes. After your talk with GK. Is your main argument to this decision based on your 100% trust on him? @Solar Sail Dude, it doesn't bode well for you to explicitly say you are going to sheep the leader. Make your own conclusions. This is just an excuse for not reading, and it's a very lame one. You also didn't even bother to retort to DarthPunk's arguments. This is very suspicious behavior. Read the filters of those you think are suspicious and make up your own damn mind Also, one thing that I do agree is that you have been too much under the radar. Will start reading your filter and see what I think, because you certainly don't look too good. | ||
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On August 23 2012 05:06 goodkarma wrote: @Z-Boson: I’ve been pretty busy scum-hunting as of late, so I haven’t really had much extra time to spare focusing on your specific accusations. Honestly, I didn’t feel they were substantial enough to warrant much of a response. But I will briefly address your case directly. Well, I only made them because I felt they were substantial, because if a non-town person assumes (like Hapa did in XXI), then it is pretty much over. First you are upset about me looking at voting history. Voting history indeed can be fickle evidence, but if you were to closely read what I wrote, instead of just making a general assumption on a scum being the other major candidate in the case of a mislynch, I was also seeing where the people with “town reads” had cast their votes. Voting history alone from days one and two, as I’ve already mentioned, will not be a strong argument in this current game. As far as Darthpunk’s “mass claim” support: Yes, I did find this a bit suspicious but I didn’t really grill DarthPunk on it at the time. If you are to look at DarthPunk’s actions up to this point, they fit those of a town much better than they would those of a scum. This one action wasn’t enough for me to change my read on him. And DarthPunk has since explained why he did this, and while the explanation could be considered a little weak I still find it believable. As for YourHarry, YourHarry brought this mass claim policy up out of nowhere, and then continuously pushes it. Only after it’s clear the idea won’t gain momentum does he go back on it as a “bad idea.” This is a very different circumstance. Well, he brought it up, and DarthPunk agreed. Then it was clear that the idea would not gain momentum, and both disagreed. I honestly don't see much difference. And as far as my case points, specifically: My case was looking moreso at motive. Other cases about YourHarry have focused more on his anti-town tendencies, which I’ve also touched upon. But that his actions would serve a scum agenda well, and are inconsistent with what a town would conceivably do, was the focus of my case. I disagree with you here. I highly doubt that he has any motive, due to his randomness. And my argument establishes that it's his tendencies that would be stronger at deciding he is scum. I don't think there is such a thing as a "random wishy-washy" good guy and a "random wishy-washy" bad guy. There is just "random wishy-washy", which to me is clearly scum-motivated. Regarding Z-Boson: I don’t find you inherently suspicious for making case points against me as DarthPunk might. However, I do find the timing of your case highly suspicious. If you look at the timing, it would seem you are going out of your way to try to invalidate the + Show Spoiler + (arguably) We still had more than a day, and to me, you were acting very suspicious. The worst thing that could happen is you actually being scum during MYLO, which is why I was worried and didn't hesitate to FOS you. But I'll concede that at least for now, it's best to focus in who will be lynched, as a whole. I don't find Stutters that suspicious, so right now, I'll focus on deciding whether we will go through with the YH lynch or if Solar and Obvious have stronger cases on them. | ||
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First you are upset about me looking at voting history. Voting history indeed can be fickle evidence, but if you were to closely read what I wrote, instead of just making a general assumption on a scum being the other major candidate in the case of a mislynch, I was also seeing where the people with “town reads” had cast their votes. Voting history alone from days one and two, as I’ve already mentioned, will not be a strong argument in this current game. I am not upset by looking at your voting history. I'm upset that you used it as an argument to find scum. I agree entirely on the bolded part. | ||
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On August 23 2012 05:41 Obvious.660 wrote: I think it's relevant to point out that Golbat, whom we probably shouldn't expect to show back up, has placed his vote on Solarsail. In the event that Golbat both (1) does not return, and (2) is town, doesn't that essentially mean town either rallies under Solarsail or goes along with the YH vote now that YH is at 4? What are the implications that a YH vote was so easy? Do you guys have any thoughts about why the easiest guy to vote for (inconsistent behaviors, confusing meta) was the last guy we're voting for? I'm not saying that YH isn't scum. I came into this game with an open mind and an understanding that his play-style is very unique to him, so I didn't hold it against him at first, yet he's still difficult to get a solid read off of (to me) even taking his style into account. I guess I can defer to the wisdom of others when it comes to YH at this stage. I'm fine with either of the leading candidates. YH is a stronger option since it allays any need to decide what his musings allow us to infer and we're left with the more straightforward Solarsail to deal with later if he's still a candidate. This is a pretty good point, actually. YH in a lot of ways resembled thrawn. Confusing answers, weird meta, weird decisions, and I felt as sure about him as I do on YH now. Solar also had some "problems" in the beginning of the game, but unlike YH, has never made any real attempt at being protown. So right now we have a somewhat confusing sheepy player vs. a balls-out confusing random player. And we can't miss. | ||
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I suggest we all unvote, discuss, and vote again, as we still have 40 minutes. If the scums don't follow suit and don't unvote, it will be clear who they are, they would certainly not risk it. I don't necessarily agree with this choice. YourHarry has a ton of shit, but he has a lot of pro-town posts. I read Obvious' case and DarthPunk's case on him, and I have to agree, he certainly looks scummy as hell. His play is even more ridiculous than YH. Then I read my case on YourHarry, and your case again. What obvious said made me retrospect, because the type of evidence YH is getting lynched for is almost identical the type of evidence that thrawn was, happenstance arguments. YES WE DO HAVE TIME. I propose this, all of us here now unvote, and if, at 8:50, not all of us are unvoted, we go ahead and vote for YH. By 8:55 all our votes are made, to the same person discussed. Essentially it is up to you, GK, because without you we won't be able to switch votes, and I strongly feel taht we should. Think about what has been said, and think quickly. Is YH the right choice?? ##Unvote | ||
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Please be present and send your opinion before the deadline! | ||
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Obvious and DP, please confirm... | ||
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Or am I being unreasonable here... | ||
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I tried... ##Vote YourHarry | ||
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YourHarry is an excellent case. I just think right now SolarSail's was better. Just pray now. @DarthPunk I was going over other people's cases. Didn't think I'd find Solar to be a serious candidate. | ||
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that was too godamn close lol <3 gk! | ||
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I noticed it looked suspicious, me trying to change vote at the last minute, but I did so because I did quite a bit of thinking and thought I had enough reason as to why Solar Sail would be a better candidate then YourHarry. The timing really looks suspicious, because I was busy doing other things and my focus was not on Solar when it should have been. As soon as I decided that Solar was a better candidate, I tried doing a switch, when we still had around an hour to go. I have school in a couple of minutes, but when I get back, I'll explain in detail as to why I think Solar was a better candidate than YourHarry and still is a strong one. Also, what exactly is so incriminating me trying to vote-switch at the very end? Now that YH is guilty, it doesn't look nice, but how was I supposed to know? I had a hunch, had my reasons, and I followed them as best I could, because I honestly thought we were going to lose. | ||
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I've read through the filters, and for now, this is my take on Solar Sail. SolarSail Solar's play can be categorized in three phases: phase 1) Defensive crybaby. This needn't much mention. However, it is important to note that he went under the radar for 5 days because nobody took him seriously, as everyone was so convinced that he was just a bad bad town. Also, he recently admitted to this: So I adopted a strategy to prevent that, which is to be so outrageous that I either get lynched immediately or established as pro-town for a long period of time. This is completely scummy in itself. phase 2) Sheepy Lurker. He doesn't make opinions for days on end, and the ones he does, it is always based on what soembody else said. And then suddenly admits to sheeping goodkarma. This is a very convenient move to avoid suspicion, granted your pro-town stance. Also, let us look at one of the only opinions he actually makes (and even so, based on goodkarma's suspicion against Ochrow/Obvious. It's just that this time he tries new arguments.: @Z-boson, Obvious I see we've ditched logic in favour of the impassioned rant. Obvious, that is the worst deliberate post in this thread. You still didn't respond to the thrawn case, or any ongoing case except yourself. No one is expecting you to defend Ochrow's every word, you're responding to a threat that doesn't exist and you're not even up for lynch so I can't call it desperation. You claimed town. Why would you even do that. You're actually blaming Ochrow ('maybe he banned himself'). However those bad posts form part of your record, so with the information you have you can do a LOT more than simply throw your hands up. You mentioned a QT to deny it. Everyone had given up on QT based speculation, why would you bring it back in? You continued to OMGUS attack goodkarma, when he has been asking only for the kind of info everyone needs from you as a replacement player. Firstly saying that we are being illogical, and then following it up with an attack on Obvious. Note his arguments. "He claimed town." That means nothing. "He mentioned a QT to deny it". Wrong, this is what he said: There's no QT to refer to, I'm all by my lonesome here and I can sort of see why maybe his ban could have been on purpose since this game is full of delusional people. "Everyone had given up on QT based speculation, why would you bring it back in?" Because it was one of the main arguments against him... And what does he mean with threat that doesn't exist? He was under fire from goodkarma from the start... It's clearly a failed attempt to make it appear like he is actually coming up with his own opinions, as gk was already on his tail for not making his own opinions. He then comes around making weird and suspicious comments after thrawn nk. He had very little to do with the lynch and is pretending like he is a bad player, should make his own opinions from now on and should not sheep. Then what does he do? Sheep!!, and blatantly doing so, a little too fast. This reminds me a lot of YourHarry's behavior, these inconsistencies. The fact of the matter is, he was still sheeping, up until night 3. And who is he sheeping? GK, the town leader. This, to me, is a clear attempt to rid himself of suspicion. He tries to assume the "don't take me seriously" stance, and that is EXTREMELY scummy. Saying your vote will be the same of another player without any second thoughts is completely anti-town. And of course, I didn't mention the anti-town comments he has been making all game, because DP and Obvious's posts against him already have this, posts in which I agree. I will use them in conjunction with this post to strengthen my stance against him. This is why I thought he was a better lynch than YH, and why I tried to switch at the end. This should be enough for a very strong scum tell. However: ... Now, of course, he is in phase 3 He has assumed a VERY defensive position as soon as YH was lynched: After you've finished going through the filters let me know if I've got to defend myself against anything, because tomorrow's gonna come down to me vs Obvious and I'd much rather be going through filters trying to find a third option, especially if Golbat somehow flips town and throws everything off. My play today was weak sheeping because I believed we had pretty much lost. I wasn't trying to put together a case of my own because it came down to whether goodkarma was right or not. Today I will be more active and more independent. No one had even said anything yet, and he assumes an exaggerated defensive stance. This sounds too much like a scum that is feeling cornered. What does he mean, by "if Golbat somehow flips town"? Is he expecting the nk to go on Golbat? Also, since I feel Golbat is most likely town, this could be a huge [u]scumslip He hasn't bothered making any real defenses of himself and just says that "DarthPunk" is oblivious to his post, when all he actually said was, put simply: 1) "My reads were based on my own independent D1 thoughts." WRONG. He himself admitted to be sheeping others, when he said he would stop from now on.[ 2) "All of this was of course useless information and their very activity in itself was a town tell. They were always there to respond and push cases and true mafia just cannot keep that up; this was more important than their small scumtells everyone jumped on." What the hell? No way their innocence was easy to determine. This is a really, really weak argument. 3) " I didn't even really check, which ends up giving the appearence of trying to fit in. I wasn't paying enough attention."" Also admitted not paying attention to the game. 4) " The reason I wasn't posting was that I felt I couldn't affect the outcome but it had the effect of making me look like I wasn't responding to criticism or posting my reads." Townies are not afraid to look suspicious, and focus on scumhunts. My read on him from his "explanation" is: He's telling us his exact mistakes as mafia, in hopes that we will value this new found sincerity and ignore him. In summary, he has been anti-town, has been MASSIVELY DEFENSIVE , and admitted to " trying to look unsuspicious" in his original behavior, admitted not paying attention to the game, lied about not sheeping, or at least contradicted himself later on, and admitted to being worried about looking suspicious. So far, I think he is our best lynch, as his behavior is crystal clear SCUM I have to run to the lab, I'll be back in 3 hours. Hope this was clear enough and let me know your thoughts.[/b] | ||
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I have no logical arguments for why I think Golbat is town. He doesn't care about the game, doesn't show any interest in posting, and the few posts that he has that I can analyze I deem are pretty neutral. He could just as well be scum or town, so let me correct myself: I have a neutral read on him, but think he is town because I feel Solar is scum and made a scumslip. Obvious has been under the radar, but he seems incredibly suspicious to me as well. | ||
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Ok, so it seems the MAIN thing that makes me scummy is my pressure to vote switch at the end. Let me get this straight. At least one mafia member bussed YH. That much is for certain. You think that I, fearing for my partner, would decide to wait until the last minute to unvote him and go for Solar. WHY IN THE WORLD did I not go for solar as soon as it was tied up? Why in the world did I wait for it to be 5 votes to 1 on Solar for me to start acting? Because going for Solar that early on would make me look suspicious? As if I wouldn't think that sticking my neck out to attempt a very risky Solar lynch 1 hour and a half before nightfall is not? Oh, and even better, you think that my plan, as scum, was to attack uncompromisingly my erratic and unpredictable partner all game long, bother making long and quoty posts on him, only to abruptly change my mind after I realize that all my work actually was gonna get him killed? This makes 0 sense to me. If I were scum and this was my plan, I would CERTAINLY join the Solar train as soon as it came out. It wouldn't give me 1/20th of the suspicion that my sticking my head out did (which, according to your theory, is generally what scums love to do), and would have a MUCH higher chance of working. But instead, you are naive and think that I was suddenly terrified of losing my partner in a already MYLO situation. Guys, don't be naive, this does not make the slightest of sense. The real scum is one who quietly voted for YourHarry without drawing up suspicion. Because guess what? One misslynch and the game still ends, we are not out of MYLO yet. Doing what I did, as scum, would seem like the stupidest shit anyone could do, it is completely unnecessary for a victory as scum right now. Do you HONESTLY think that is my brilliant plan? If you said yes, then wow, I don't know what to say, you must be very biased. If you said "that's what he wants us to think", then your MAIN argument against lynching someone who has been heavy on the analysis and reads on players all game long is purely WIFOM. Also, your strategy for fishing evidence that is not there is pretty horrible. "Z-BosoN, please make your reads!" THen you skim it, nitpick one meaningless quote I didn't give the slightest shit to when I was writing, because that was not even close to the main point I was making, AND that was explained later, and throw the rest of it down the toilet. How bout you go back and read my post, unbiased, pretending it was one of your town reads that made it, and tell me why you think solar is town after a HUGE STASH of HARD EVIDENCE has been thrown in your way. Also, please answer as logically and as precise as you can. I know your impulse is to go through this post and try to find something that "inequivocally" proves me scum and ignore the rest, but read it seriously and explain to me your EXACT reasoning as to why I'm most definitely scum. Point by point. | ||
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I tried to be as reasonable as possible, explaining my decisions as much as I could. I voted for Jhuyt early, because I heavily favored a policy lynch. I voted for thrawn due to the immense pile of suspicion his arguments made me. I chose him over YourHarry simply because I thought the accusations on thrawn were stronger than those on yourharry's. And the same thing for solar, I went for Solar simply because I read the cases against him and realized that he had a much better chance of being scum. If you want to target people based on votes, why not go for those who didn't bother explaining them? And, if you disagreed with my reasoning, why didn't you say so before the vote was actually made? @DarthPunk So, according to you, everyone should mindlessly base themselves on goodkarma? I don't think that's good for the town. What's good for the town is making discussions and reaching thought-out conclusions. At the end, if no compromise is made, THEN we make decisions based on gk. Am I wrong here? | ||
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On August 24 2012 08:03 Solarsail wrote: You're correct, that would be biased deduction. But that's not what happened. The arguments of the two posts against you have been: Goodkarma: "Z-Boson's scummy behavior is related to the last minute vote switch request" Obvious: "The guy who has been laying into YH the entire game has a change of heart just before the deadline." Those aren't "A scum Boson would be doing X". Those are, "Boson's behaviour here and here is scummy". Please give town motivations for the listed behaviour. Offensive, now? Of course he would be, granted that suddenly he feels off the hook. One more obvious scum tell that you can choose to ignore or not. You did not do me the honor of answering my post against you, which was 10x bigger and with much more time and thought invested. A good idea would be to do so, so people won't think you just ignored them once they realize the amount of evidence there is there. I will, nonetheless, answer you. "Boson's behaviour here and here is scummy". Is this not saying "A scum boson would likely do this?" I don't see the difference. I already gave you my town motivations. You just choose not to see it. | ||
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Please Follow GK town! The town purpose? Stimulate discussion. Force people to make their own reads. A blind band wagon will ultimately succeed based only on the choice of the leader's target... The town purpose is that the eggs choose what basket they should jump into, and not have one egg choose it for them. That way it is easier to prove that I'm innocent if I'm innocent, and harder to prove that if I'm scum. | ||
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Stop saying "this is suspicious", and say why you think it is. Explain to me the difference. Again, I will, nonetheless, answer you. "Boson's behaviour here and here is scummy". Is this not saying "A scum boson would likely do this?" I don't see the difference. I already gave you my town motivations. You just choose not to see it. | ||
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Well, most certainly one of us is scum, but as far as I know, we agreed to follow suit. I suggest we all unvote, discuss, and vote again, as we still have 40 minutes. If the scums don't follow suit and don't unvote, it will be clear who they are, they would certainly not risk it. I don't necessarily agree with this choice. YourHarry has a ton of shit, but he has a lot of pro-town posts. I read Obvious' case and DarthPunk's case on him, and I have to agree, he certainly looks scummy as hell. His play is even more ridiculous than YH. Then I read my case on YourHarry, and your case again. What obvious said made me retrospect, because the type of evidence YH is getting lynched for is almost identical the type of evidence that thrawn was, happenstance arguments. YES WE DO HAVE TIME. I propose this, all of us here now unvote, and if, at 8:50, not all of us are unvoted, we go ahead and vote for YH. By 8:55 all our votes are made, to the same person discussed. Essentially it is up to you, GK, because without you we won't be able to switch votes, and I strongly feel taht we should. Think about what has been said, and think quickly. Is YH the right choice?? ##Unvote I didn't have the time to justify myself. All I could say was what is quoted and: "this feels like thrawn all over again": However, I did justify it, later on. Do you find it wrong and lacky? But how are you so quick to talk the same thing, when you agreed with me: errr. this seemed to easy in retrospect. I expect a mislynch. anyway GG> too late now. Should have been here earlier. If you are town, then Sorry I guess. You "slept" exactly during the time I was trying to switch, agreed with me at the very end when it didn't matter, and now you are throwing the rocks? Also, stop inventing arguments. YourHarry just came last minute out of nowhere. I'm sure he would have been defending himself granted he was about to be lynched. The pressure was made by me and me alone, for a period of about an hour and a half. | ||
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On August 24 2012 08:39 goodkarma wrote: I've addressed Z-Boson's case as best I can in the short time remaining. I currently still firmly believe the evidence is there that Z-Boson is scum. My comments are in red. And let me upfront explain this too, as I'm sure it will at some point be brought up, regarding YourHarry's Golbat vote day 3: YourHarry softdefended Golbat and only made his vote after I pressured him. What's more, he called it a "pressure vote," meaning he had little conviction behind it... Look at the interactions between YourHarry and Golbat, as well as how he behaves when actually called out for defending Golbat day 3, and I'm confident you'll agree Golbat's likely the second scum. Unfortunately, due to time constraints that's all the detail I can go into right now, but the evidence is there if you look for it. Thank you for taking the time to decently confront my claims, as I have requested. I will answer this properly, after dawn. Hopefully you wont die and I can properly explain myself. If you do die, then I hope the rest of the town can make proper arguments and not blindly follow DP... If for some reason I die, which I think is unlikely, I actually think DP is the third mafia. Please read my exchanges with him carefully. GL TOWN! | ||
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Z-BosoN
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Read through this carefully, it took a FUCKTON of time to write. Finally some cold hard evidence. I find it so weird though, that no one else is bothered by this. Perhaps there are so many sheep here that they just assume what they want and don't bother thinking or even reading. First of all, a history lesson. This is XXI all over again. Since many of you didn't read it, and probably won't, here is what happened: Hapahauli basically gained town confidence in a game full of sheep and won the game. No one ever FOSed him, no one ever suspected him, even with all the evidence raked up against him (specially that post regarding the breadcrumb that mafia missed). I feel like this is XXI all over again. DarthPunk basically gained town confidence, by having all this voice, all this confidence, and suddenly became immune to public gaze. LET'S NOT LET THIS HAPPEN IN THIS GAME I've been doing my homework and look at what I've come up on DarthPunk. He and goodkarma have been trading hugs ever since the beggining of the game + Show Spoiler + First off, look through these quotes from DarthPunk: Says gk is town, but if he is scum then he is a great player who needs to be applauded. I have a strong town read on Goodkarma, but even with him/her I am not sure. I can see GK being scum. and if so I both applaud you and say WTF?!?! to the rest of town for being so shit. Needlessly mentions his certainty of goodkarma: Goodkarma is my strongest town read. I see the points that you make in your case and I can see where you are coming from but I believe you to be on the wrong track. I find it incredible that your top scum read is one of the most proactive townies in the game. And then, another disgusting non-called for indication of how much he trusts goodkarma. That being said. I am going to fully commit to my town read on Goodkarma. And I will work with him In order to secure a scum lynch. Noting this, look what we find in his filter when I search for "goodkarma": I am still eagerly awaiting this writeup GK. I 100% agree with Goodkarmas post and it fits my reads completely. I am listening to your arguments but as GoodKarma stated they don't really exist aside from your Vig claim and a truckload of WIFOM. GK especially seems to have expressed very similar reads to my own, though for slightly different reasons. I was expecting either myself or goodkarma to get shot DarthPunk ignores what's convenient for him + Show Spoiler + Let's go ahead and look through his bullshit. He says this: Z-boson has appeared town like and active but has just sheeped cases and not been proactive in pushing them. Pretty much a neutral read. And this: I blame myself for being active and building the majority of the case on Thrawn along with Goodkarma Wait a minute. I BEGIN attacking thrawn, and CONTINUE doing so even after both of them go for different targets. I make long and elaborate posts, and he still makes it a point that the thrawn killing was only their doing. So I retort, of course, and READ CAREFULLY what he says: On August 22 2012 22:53 DarthPunk wrote: I am leaning towards Z-boson as the final scum as he has cast suspicion on you whilst also stating you are town. Your harry and Z-boson both tried to cast suspicion on you today. Your harry has not voted for solar sail who is his direct lynch opponent which does not fit in to his previous play. Z-boson has also Ignored solarsail since day one and was a bit too defensive when i did not cast him as townie. Suddenly me and Harry have become much more suspicious on his eyes because we became suspicious of goodkarma? Did he even bother responding to mine or YourHarry's posts? Also, note how he quotes my post and doesn't address it. It feels a lot more like an instant reaction , as if he read my post, didn't like it, immediately quoted it and made weak arguments, basically stating that I've . Of course, he does this without being afraid because he doesn't feel like he is a target. What's even more hilarious about this is his next argument: I haven't been attacking SolarSail. Seriously guys, go to his filter and look at how many times he's addressed SolarSail since August 15th. Ok, you probably found, once in august 17th, once in 18th, once in 19th, and, from 22nd forward, a TON. And, in these days (17th,18th,19th) he didn't attack SolarSail ONCE. So how is it that he can go ahead and say that I've been ignoring Solar ever since day 1, since he has been also doing the same thing? He can't. He's not worried about that. He thinks his word is now law and in his mind he doesn't need to bother with such details, and can go spreading them like wildfire. And WHEN was I a bit too defensive when you accused SolarSail of being town? I'm not even going to search for this, so please, enlighten me. Also, make sure and see if I did so without reason or without an explanation. He's dodgy with his responses and says: "this seems very suspicious" multiple times, without explaining, always making SURE that he is sheeping goodkarma. MAJOR scumslip by DarthPunk + Show Spoiler + On August 22 2012 22:47 DarthPunk wrote: Yes I think they are forced too at this point. I think that one of them is Bussing. Solarsail is scum and voting golbat. so I view him as town. I think obvious is town also as he was so quick to drop the Golbat lynch after looking into solar's filter. I think a scum obvious would have tried slightly harder to go for the easy mislynch. That leaves either Stutters or Z-boson as scum bussing YH. Guys, read their last conversation, before they both went to sleep. Doesn't it bring up a lot of red flags? WHY IN THE WORLD would scum feel forced to bus one of their own? If scum can get a misslynch, they win, that easily. If he feels that way, why didn't he bother explaining it?. Because he finds no reason to. He feels comfortable that he and goodkarma are the "untouchables" and can go around making people believe what he wants. And this, as mafia, is exactly what he is thinking right now. He feels they can't get a misslynch train going on Solar with someone obviously scummy such as YourHarry, so they just go with bussing their scum friend, YourHarry. Most likely, they will focus on Solar next, granted his easyness to target. He makes up arguments + Show Spoiler + 1) He made up the argument that I was quick to defend SolarSail, which is UNTRUE. 2) He invented that I didn't give reason as to why I chose SolarSail over him. 3) He stated that it was me and YourHarry who did the last minute push, when YH had nothing on it. 4) He AGREED WITH ALL THE BLUES CLAIMING. When he saw that this was a bad idea, he immediately retracted. Saying he was "emotionally compromised", when it was JHuyt who had just been killed, which is an actual help for us. What kind of crap is this, and why does it go unnoted? Goodkarma, do you know why he piggy-backed off you? Because you kept making incessant remarks on how you know him as a player, how good he is, how much you agree with him, etc: And from here on out, he jumped on you like a parasite. Wake up man, your lack of suspicion on him is only meta. The evidence is THERE. Look at what he has been doing!!! I noted this ever since you began to idolize him, since day 1 or 2. I also noted that he was roleblocked twice, and that must mean that your are a [blue]JailKeeper[blue]. I've suspected this for a long time, given your affection of him, and thus, I did not KILL YOU. Why would I not do that? So I could use that right now as an argument? Finally, laying out all the cards on the table, to assure you that I'M NOT SCUM, is that I AM A ROLEBLOCKER. On the first night I did not block anyone. On the second night I blocked YourHarry. The night kill happened anyway, so in my mind his chance of being mafia were a bit small, which is why I didn't vote for him. Breadcrumb from August 20 2012, 4:56. I will. Right before the deadIine even. Your case on Him, and DarthPunk's case on YourHarry. If I find either to be stronger than the one I have on you, I certainly will reconsider my vote. Hope this time you have read my post, and hope this clears some things up. I didn't capitalize the letter b, and deadline is written with a capital i instead of undercase L. To check this, just quote and use word check. On the third night, I left this last breadcrumb indicating that I would block Solar Sail, @August 24 2012 08:56: You say you don't even need to explain why it makes me look suspicious. I say you do. Okay, here's why last minute vote switching is heavily scum motivated. As scum if you drive a mislynch you win. If Solar's town, scum would love to get the vote switched to him. And your motive for last minute switching is pretty poor. You describe YourHarry as a "strong scum Read," yet you feel compelled to last minute switch your vote... Really? I have to explain this to you??? And if you can get just enough votes off YourHarry, with even one town on Solar you could have secured a lynch because of plurality rules. Taking advantage of a potentially afk townie and last minute switching, even would have been an option. There are so many ways scum could benefit from a last minute switch, and so few that town could (assuming you actually meant it when you said YourHarry was scum...) that this is a pretty ridiculous question. Ok, so it seems the MAIN thing that makes me scummy is my pressure to vote switch at the end. It's far from the main thing. There are several things I discuss in my case, including the timing of your FOS on me day 3 and YourHarry's FOS that makes most sense as a way to distance himself from you... Let me get this straight. At least one mafia member bussed YH. That much is for certain. You think that I, fearing for my partner, would decide to wait until the last minute to unvote him and go for Solar. WHY IN THE WORLD did I not go for solar as soon as it was tied up? Why in the world did I wait for it to be 5 votes to 1 on Solar for me to start acting? Because going for Solar that early on would make me look suspicious? As if I wouldn't think that sticking my neck out to attempt a very risky Solar lynch 1 hour and a half before nightfall is not? Okay so Briefly let's get the timeline straight: 1) I vote YourHarry, 2) You FOS me, 3) Stutters votes YourHarry, 4) you vote YourHarry... Scum could and honestly probably should have bused the exact way that you did. With the YourHarry lynch gathering momentum it was better for scum to jump on it early than to just take it easy and let it happen. You would have looked even more suspicious getting on the bandwaggon late. You tried defending YourHarry at first, of course, by trying to undermine my leadership position by putting suspicion on me with an FOS. But when that wouldn't work, you HAD to get behind YourHarry as damage control. ALL THE PIECES FIT... And as for the Solar wagon, if Solar had gained momentum and you were around I'm certain you would have used that as a reason to jump on it. But the fact of the matter was there was me, and there was DarthPunk as pretty established town. If you went against either of us, you would have been under heavy suspicion, so when three vote momentum was gained on SolarSail and DarthPunk switched sides before you got back, you missed your "window of opportunity." I changed your quote of my quote in two capital letters, and underlined solarsail. R B solarsail, bolded above. You can check this later on. As with a 1/2 of a chance, no kill occurred. Solar Sail IS SCUM, AS EXPECTED. This is 100% true!! Unless you used your jail powers to roleblock someone, instead of to save someone, then it is infallible, Solar IS SCUM. One last thing. Solar and Golbat can't both be town. If they were, when golbat came and voted on Solar sail, when town had 8 people, all the scum team would have gone to solar sail and won. That can only happen if neither of them are town. Now that we are out of MYLO, I STRONGLY STRONGLY suggest going after one or both of them. One is certainly scum. I don't think BOTH of them can actually be, it wouldn't make sense for Golbat to just go ahead and bus YourHarry. So, the other, I fear, must be DarthPunk, I dug up and found too much stuff on him. Try to read my accusations as unbiased as you can. I beg of you, let's not lose this game because you all were too blind to see it. If after ALL THIS, you STILL think I'm scum, then, well, I tried. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Also, if you think that this is a last ditch attempt, look at the date in which I posted this. I couldn't have possibly written these 7 word pages this thought out in one hour. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Let's learn to count first. YourHarry, Obvious, and You. That requires one jailkeeper and two roleblockers. Unless you wish to claim roleblocker as well, lol. goodkarma jailed you. I roleblocked YourHarry. YourHarry roleblocked Obvious. Three. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I've also presented you with a perfect winning scenario: Solar and Golbat can't both be town, this is guaranteed. If they were, the whole scum team would just join Golbat's vote on Solar and win with 4 votes. So one of the two is scum. Here is what happens if you lynch solar: 1) I am roleblocker and am telling the truth. He will be scum, and will testify that I'm townie, and we will have to look for the other scum. 2) I am lying about being roleblocker, and lied about roleblocking Solar. If solar is innocent, then Golbat is most definitely scum, and I am most definitely scum, GG. Win-win. I don't understand why you are going for Golbat. ##Vote Solarsail | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
GG town. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
 Firstly, I'd like to thank all of the players. This was my first game ever in any kind of Mafia, and I had A LOT of fun in it. This game is MUCH more intense than I thought it would be. It totally screwed up my busy studying routine, as I went on hours on end writing posts and analyzing people. My recap of the game: I'll bluntly say that town started off very, very bad this game. You began with a Shady Sands lynch, with two grand master lurkers around. I looked at his posting history, and he seems to be that kind of player as town. Also, I think it is completely ridiculous to go for the most active town member, even if he doesn't make a lot of sense. Active scum, like myself, are careful not to make mistakes. Thrawn lynch was ok, he was playing very erratically. However, Your Harry should have been definitely be lynched instead of him. His meta was completely anti-town, such in a way that if he died, the town would benefit from it, in my opinion. Also, early on, I think a blue claim should get the benefit of the doubt. The YourHarry lynch was absolutely necessary. Solar looked suspicious, but not nearly as much as YourHarry, with me trying to think as townie as I possibly can. Scum, however, managed to be even worse. We were disorganized and rarely reached conclusions by talking with each other. I felt extremely alone as scum. My two biggest game-losing mistakes were: 1) NKing Jhuyt instead of goodkarma 2) Pressuring to switch up votes on Solar Number 1) was just plain lack of thought and lack of importance. YH suggested it, I said sure, whatever, I was feeling super comfortable. I didn't even read how suspicious goodkarma thought he was until too late. I should have been at nightfall, this would have been perfect for me. I seriously suspected gk of being jailer and killing him would have been absolutely PERFECT (right now I don't now for sure if he indeed is jailer, but I'm pretty sure he is). I didn't know the importance of being present at nightfall, and this definitely was a down. Number 2), well, it was a bluff, but I honestly thought that you would, in the end, decide that I was just a desperate townie. IMO what I was doing was simply too stupid and unnecessary as Mafia. Also, my FOS on you was pure townie related. It did not occur to me that attacking the most prominent town member doing MYLO is generally a stupid thing to do. Then YH proceeds to, without warning, do the same. T.T. If I had as clean a filter as I thought I had, I'm almost sure that I would have been dismissed as a desperate townie, but that didn't go so well. Had I just stayed quiet, a Solar lynch would have been much much easier, as I would have virtually no suspicion on me. This was my biggest FML moment, by far. GK's post saying that Solar was town and I was scum killed me inside. Of course, these two could have been avoided had I actually had a team to discuss the actions with. Golbat was afk for life, and YH was just random and unhelpful. When he was needed the most, that is, when you guys were on the YH/Solar fence, he was not present. I was sure that if he made townie posts, gk would sway just like he did with thrawn. In day one, I had to send all of the mafia orders 10 minutes before the deadline because none of them were present. The discussions between me and YH never reached any conclusion, I felt it was me vs. everyone and under the pressure, ended up making two bad and costly decisions. Thankfully, things didn't go so bad because both VisceraEyes and Blazinghand helped me out tremendously, so huge thanks to them. I'm writing this knowing I will die, so since this feels like a will rather than a GG post, here are my last words to the players lol: @goodkarma: Very nice and intense game. I did indeed have a hunch you were jailer (again, right now I don't know this for sure, lol. I'm just typing assuming that you were) when DP was blocked the first time. Mafia didn’t block him, so why would a townie? Then I learned that JK could save, and you were so defensive of him, I was confident it was you. I seriously thought about killing you beforehand, but your sudden defense on thrawn made me feel like you were weak to people making pro-town arguments and could use it later on. Why didn't I do it? No goddamn clue. Like I said, the JHuyt kill was just afhauisdhfaf????aegfa!??. Maybe I was distracted by writing some posts or something, I dunno. The best thing you did was sticking with YH before he was lynched. It felt so obvious to me that he was the right choice, lol. But as scum, I guess I can't make that judgement too accurately. @DarthPunk: Much about what I've said on your part is true, you arguments are exaggerated, you post only what you want to answer to, and you ignore many things, and even invent some arguments to prove a point. Be careful with that, as it makes you lose credibility. Had I a bit less dirt on me, I think you would seem like a reasonable target, if goodkarma didn’t have feelings for you . You may disagree with me, but come on bro, I'm dying =p. Congratulations on your play though, your decision to support GK was spot on. @YourHarry: Sometimes you seemed to want to contribute, sometimes you seemed to want to just screw around. You were random in the thread, and you were random in the QT. You disappeared when you were most needed. You show ability to make decent posts, but most of them were poorly thought out. Anyways, at least you didn't bail, like Golbat. It still was fun being mafia with you. @Stutters: A man of few words, but words well spoken. Very well played. @Shady Sands: Too bad man, you tried! @thrawn2112: AHahahaha poor thrawn. You had good intentions buddy, but wasting a vigi shot like that on day one was hella weird. Also, you should focus on the main arguments against you and answer them adequately. Don't feel afraid to admit you made a mistake, everybody does. Look at MY mistakes lol. @Archrun: I didn't know you too well. Stray bullet got you. My condolences . @Golbat: Why join the game if you are not gonna play? @Obvious.660: Didn't hear much from you, but you played fine. Much better than your counterpart, at least. @Jhuyt: You lurker! Why did I agree to killing you? This is all your fault! You made me kill you, somehow... @mkfuba07: You seemed such like a nice guy. Sorry for killing you. You smelled blue to me. I even roleblocked you so I would make sure you were dead. @SolarSail: Hope you learned a lot from this game! Scums are cruel little liars. I write this mostly because I am extremely bored, extremely frustrated at my loss, and don't feel like doing much anything right now. Plus I'm checking out my new FILCO majestouch keyboard =p GG. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Can anyone tell me why I was a scum read during the thrawn lynch? | ||
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