EPTPlease evaluate other aspects of his play than just his attacks on you. Self-centeredness is sometimes a scum trait and sometimes a trait of shitty play (I know, I've done it myself) but it's never a sign of a good town player.
Mad Men Mafia - Page 44
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
Please evaluate other aspects of his play than just his attacks on you. Self-centeredness is sometimes a scum trait and sometimes a trait of shitty play (I know, I've done it myself) but it's never a sign of a good town player. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
He gets added to the scummy noob/lurker list with BioSC, BroodKing, and Glasse. The thing is, they're probably not all going to flip scum, and I don't know which one to kill  | ||
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MrZentor
United States1648 Posts
I then get into a big debate with them about why I'm not mafia and why somebody else is. But since that hasn't happened and this game is so large, I have no idea what to think. :/ | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
you have posted once lol | ||
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MrZentor
United States1648 Posts
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CountDropula
United States61 Posts
This post is not me bashing you as a player. I'm picking up on general trends in your play and and using our interaction as an extended example. It's written in the second person because I'm confident you will crack under the pressure. You know this too, don't you?  Zeph. You don't think I read your previous games before our confrontation on d1? You were all about facts and concrete arguments in normal mini mafia 2. So when I tried acting level-headed and nooby (the profile of someone I think your town-self would be comfortable with) to gauge if you were the same town Zeph from that game, you acted in the exact opposite way town Zeph would have. Everything you have against me is against me personally. On August 04 2012 08:59 Zephirdd wrote: I just noticed this gem. Finally that paid off. Let me explain it to you. It was 5min into the game. I didn't even bother casting those votes on the voting thread. Why? Because they didn't matter, and I'd change them later anyway. It's not that I don't care, it's just that by creating a stupid vote, you take reactions from people. People like you, who is trying to take something as silly as that as an excuse to vote me, when in fact there is nothing there that makes me scum. I'm not afraid of having opinions change, as no town should be. My opinions did change quickly - and that's pretty damn common for a town player. You are creating bullshit reasoning to jump into the wagon easily. Nice first post scum. ##unvote (talismania) ##vote CountDropula Little did you know, I was the one baiting YOU. Your first posts looked suspicious, but I wasn't sure yet, so I tried to elicit some kind of response. You then validated my suspicion. You blinked first and outed your "plan" to the thread. You weren't being patient. Your goal was not to build a case. Your goal was to make an excuse for the sake of your appearance. This whole game, all your posts have done is feed the chaos. You don't focus. Examples. On August 05 2012 08:59 Zephirdd wrote: Hm, thats a lot of shit to skim through since my last post. Holy shit. erandorr/wbg logs are just a crapload of fuckity fuck. ghost_404(I see wat you did ther rastaban) was replaced by the one guy that I found to be scum last game. then there is both talismania and prplhz cases, but nobody cared enough about CountDropula I guess. talismania's filter - summarized nicely by BKEXE - is terrible. He was helpful during the "discussion that everyone can take any instance and still be town" phase, but not after. I am not sure about prplhz... I guess he is a decent lynch tho, he did go afk out of nowhere, and last time I saw him doing that he was scum. He's not the kind of guy who just "goes" away. Well, consolidating votes won't hurt, right? I still want to go back to CD on the future. You are saying nothing. Ok now this is interesting. Calling town reads a scummy move, yet posting town reads. On August 04 2012 05:43 Zephirdd wrote: So I decided to actually read stuff properly now. Talismania first post containing "Glasse" is: (That was after hopeless1der voted him) His second post is exactly the same. The next instance is asking toad his instance on 4 people including Glasse Then he mirrors a player that has shown a case, throw a bunch of unnecessary town reads(nobody asked that, why do it) and after some fluff he says Glasse was "hilariously obviously scummy" without giving true reasoning(ie. giving a post and explaining why that was a scum post). Then he is rolefishing "for his own amusement". Hmm maybe people weren't wrong about questioning his plans on the beginning. On August 04 2012 04:45 Zephirdd wrote: "not contributing"? What do you want me to do, pull bullshit out of my ass the way you are doing? wbg outing masons is a town move because he believes there is scum in the masons; He is outing them in order to pressure them. VE is town because his posting lines up with cautious blue that wants to protect his supposedly powerful mason role. Erandorr is dumb, but I'd say he wouldn't be that dumb as scum. Talismania's posts made sense for me when he posted them, and I still see them as possible town opinions. prplhz has been baiting scum with certain actions, while making sense with others. He hasn't caused chaos and is doing a good job in keeping the pace of the thread. Everything else is a null tell. I hate defending other people. That's their job. I only defend someone when I feel I have someone better to lynch. I don't. Deal with it. Your play is getting worse. This last post is swiss cheese. Full of holes. On August 06 2012 23:37 Zephirdd wrote: 'sup folks. Busy sunday yesterday. Didn't read much, so I didn't post. I'm still re-reading some stuff, but I'll post some of my thoughts right now. The obvious one, CountDropula: 1. Uses terrible arguments to jump into my bandwagon: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=22#436 He is using my random votings from 3-5minutes into the day as reasoning to vote me. He is using my change of instances based on someone's else opinion as reasoning to vote me. Neither of these are scum traits, nor do they push scum agendas. It's entirely reasonable that a town player would change opinions within two posts, given that someone gives the proper arguments. Random voting someone for the sake of random voting, 5 minutes into the day, is pretty much a bait for scum. A real town would look at that and realize it's not a reason to push someone; It means NOTHING action-wise. Yet, he uses it to make my wagon gain strength. Granted, he never voted me; which is even worse: if you have a suspicion on someone, why would you not vote him? 2. Appeal to emotion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=23#459 (From Ace's thread on how-to-play-scum: a good scum trait is provoking emotion out of town) I don't know where did he pull that I had a burst of emotion. Besides, why bring it up at all? Again, it's one of these traits that don't determine someone's alignment - in fact, I'd argue it's much more likely that a town player show a burst of emotion than a scum player. Then he pulls some bullshit "You never answered XXX" when I answered everything. And I even said more a few posts later. He never counter-argued. Then he calls for some "concrete defense" when he nevers says what about my defense is not concrete. Simply put, he is throwing loaded(and VERY loaded) sentences to try and break me down. How the f* does someone give a "concrete defense" on this game? Fucking no one can do that without being an Innocent Child or confirmed-town-dayvig. There is also these posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=40#800 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=41#802 These posts have no purpose except bringing emotion into the table and - hopefully for him - numbing people's judgement. This is pretty much a scum move. 3. Hypocrisy, blending in: This makes him look good right, he is calling for people to post... He has two freakingly terrible posts that only talk about one subject and is calling for people to be active That's trying to blend in without putting effort into the game. He is a lurker himself and is calling lurkers out. The more he post, the scummier he looks to me. Well, his first post is red as fuck already, but he is just being worse over time. So yeah, I'll keep reading stuff but my vote is on him already. ##Vote CountDropula Please don't ignore this guy. This is such a complete contradiction of your town play that it's absolutely ridiculous. Here is a post from normal mini mafia II. On July 07 2012 13:12 Zephirdd wrote: As I said, I posted an awfully lot. Point me what is scummy specifically, and I'll point out why it is not scummy. Additionally, I added reasoning for stating things with certainty. That alone should show why it's a bad argument to vote me for that. Also, I just realized I kinda read your third paragraph wrongly. I thought you were complaining that I was posting with certainty, but you're complaining that I am mostly stating "facts" instead of "speculation". Guess what, speculating stuff is terrible =_= Oh I think you are mafia oh maybe you are town! No. I look at what people post, and define scum or town according to what they do. Then, I state a FACT and use it to prove that someone is SCUM. In fact, my spreadsheet right now only has facts, and these facts help me determine an alignment. Playing under speculations is a bad way to play imo. Won't even bother rebutting then :| No compulsion to go crazy in response to suspicion because you are town in this game. In Mad Men, you say that nothing is concrete because you don't want it to be. You thrive on chaos. And another one from normal mini. Note the importance he places on facts. On July 07 2012 13:50 Zephirdd wrote: WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT WHAT WAHT AWHTAW THAW HT ATA THSDDS What the fuck. How. What. I need a break. Look. Can you define a fact in simple terms? I can: it's something that can't be denied. I posted facts. I literally pointed the obvious. Things that cannot be denied. These things made me infer that someone is scum - scumhunting I have not seen you pointing out facts about me. I have not seen you pointing out things that can't be denied, specifically, the way I'm doing to an actual candidate. Do you think your vote on me has any chance of gaining any traction to form into a lynch? If you think so, I think you are wrong because your case is substantially weak when compared to what I point out about the actual candidate. If you don't think so, then why are you even bothering with me? I need a break. I'll grab some beer. Watch EVO. and go to sleep. Don't wait my answers until tomorrow at ~00KST(which should be noon for me). Day and night. All you are posting in this game is speculative, your case against me is not complete and irrefutable - actually it's the opposite since its based on so little. Town Zeph would never have done this. This is expected from a lazy scum case. Same thing with that "minicase" on talismania. It's well below the standard of your previous town game. You voted me at 8.59 August 4. I had one post at the time. one. Ever since then you've been pushing me as scum. How can you draw a conclusion like that from nothing? You know something we don't, and you were trying to create a distraction from more relevant issues. If you respond with a crazy belligerent post you just lynched yourself. Honestly you are dead with any response you make, because you are so irredeemably bad at playing scum that you will make a mistake and I will pick you apart with it. Now who's the noob scum? Guys, don't bury this post. Please give it serious thought, cause I've got a really strong read on this guy. If I'm wrong about this, I deserve to be lynched. Get this guy into the spotlight and he will crack. Please. Lets lynch Zephirdd and start killing mafia. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On August 05 2012 10:27 talismania wrote: Medics protect sloosh tonight. If I were mafia I would kill him. He's always Captain America with the town, gathering votes together, keeping things on track. He's active and has generally solid analysis. Plus he's on me, so him dying makes it easy to push my lynch, and then boom two active townies are down the drain. So protect him. He pushes this action to confuse town. If Sloosh dies in the night, it gives Talis tons of town cred because he said that medics should protect Sloosh. A little reverse psychology action too by claiming he would kill Sloosh if he were mafia. A hit on Sloosh appears to be be only negative for him and thus making him look innocent by association. On August 06 2012 02:47 talismania wrote: Forget WBG. If he wants to play, he'll play and we can go from there. If he wants to die, he'll vote for himself again and get modkilled. DTs! Please strongly consider checking into one of VE/Hassy. Or if you don't agree with me, at least check one of the masons He reflects heat off of his scum buddy and himself with this line. Many times throughout the thread, Talis gives WBG a onceover with a "probably town" read and then accuses someone new. Talis is scum with WBG and is trying to protect him. He also wants DTs to check other players other than himself/WBG to avoid being caught. On August 06 2012 17:16 talismania wrote: They roleblocked me as insurance in case I was medic. If I were medic, I would definitely have guarded sloosh. Mafia doesn't know how many medics there are. They may have thought I was medic and was trying to tell another one to guard with me because I was wary of a doublestack. Yes I still think it was a doublestack and I think grush was vig'd. We'll see when other people post if it gets claimed or not. On the last point I'm talking from the perspective of the mafia team trying to call me mafia so I'm talking as if I'm mafia. It's convoluted sounding but really pretty simple: mafia can RB a member of their own team, say a goon or mason or whatever. Then that person can claim RB'd, for some weak towncred. Mafia in RBing me knew I would be notified, but weren't worried about it making me look townie because they knew they would be able to argue that there was just an intra-mafia RB on me because I would want towncred. They pair that argument with all my stuff about protecting sloosh as further evidence that I want towncred. etc etc. He defends himself before anyone has even pointed a finger at him. This post feels like mafia bait to me, but is instead used so he can point fingers at the person who will make the argument and deflect heat off of him. With the death of Sloosh, it gives him an extremely concrete defense as a townie. Mafia team-roleblock him to make him look like a medic, then doublestack Sloosh in case of a medic. Talis' reasoning to medic sloosh was good, but other players like Toad, Erandorr and SnB come off as town to me and good candidates to be protected over sloosh in the night. There could have been two medics on Sloosh last night, but obviously that was not the case as Sloosh is dead. With that, Talis has everything to gain defensively and gives him a really powerful position to manipulate town as Mafia. His aggressive finger pointing without concrete evidence is his way of appearing town. I'm not buying it. ##Vote Talismana | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On August 07 2012 00:37 MrZentor wrote: Apparently that's suspicious. who do you think is scum | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
I don't know why we're assuming slOosh was double-stacked - while I don't think it's likely that grush was a priority scum target, the way he was playing and posting felt kinda blue to me, so I can imagine it would feel blue to scum too. Plus, considering Bugs is among the only voices who was speaking out in opposition of grush, it makes even less sense to assume that a vig killed grush (because Bugs was under such heavy suspicion himself.) Until we get a vig claim, I'm assuming that both scum shots have been accounted for here. Bugs, our masoning is over sir. If you want to discuss with me, do so in the thread guy. There's some interesting stuff going on - I'll comment after my reread. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On August 07 2012 02:01 VisceraEyes wrote: the way he was playing and posting felt kinda blue to me what movin' on up the scum list ladder train | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On August 07 2012 00:56 CountDropula wrote: Zephirdd, it's time. I'm calling you out. This post is not me bashing you as a player. I'm picking up on general trends in your play and and using our interaction as an extended example. It's written in the second person because I'm confident you will crack under the pressure. You know this too, don't you? Zeph. You don't think I read your previous games before our confrontation on d1? You were all about facts and concrete arguments in normal mini mafia 2. So when I tried acting level-headed and nooby (the profile of someone I think your town-self would be comfortable with) to gauge if you were the same town Zeph from that game, you acted in the exact opposite way town Zeph would have. Everything you have against me is against me personally. Little did you know, I was the one baiting YOU. Your first posts looked suspicious, but I wasn't sure yet, so I tried to elicit some kind of response. You then validated my suspicion. You blinked first and outed your "plan" to the thread. You weren't being patient. Your goal was not to build a case. Your goal was to make an excuse for the sake of your appearance. This whole game, all your posts have done is feed the chaos. You don't focus. Examples. You are saying nothing. Ok now this is interesting. Calling town reads a scummy move, yet posting town reads. Your play is getting worse. This last post is swiss cheese. Full of holes. This is such a complete contradiction of your town play that it's absolutely ridiculous. Here is a post from normal mini mafia II. No compulsion to go crazy in response to suspicion because you are town in this game. In Mad Men, you say that nothing is concrete because you don't want it to be. You thrive on chaos. And another one from normal mini. Note the importance he places on facts. Day and night. All you are posting in this game is speculative, your case against me is not complete and irrefutable - actually it's the opposite since its based on so little. Town Zeph would never have done this. This is expected from a lazy scum case. Same thing with that "minicase" on talismania. It's well below the standard of your previous town game. You voted me at 8.59 August 4. I had one post at the time. one. Ever since then you've been pushing me as scum. How can you draw a conclusion like that from nothing? You know something we don't, and you were trying to create a distraction from more relevant issues. If you respond with a crazy belligerent post you just lynched yourself. Honestly you are dead with any response you make, because you are so irredeemably bad at playing scum that you will make a mistake and I will pick you apart with it. Now who's the noob scum? Guys, don't bury this post. Please give it serious thought, cause I've got a really strong read on this guy. If I'm wrong about this, I deserve to be lynched. Get this guy into the spotlight and he will crack. Please. Lets lynch Zephirdd and start killing mafia. Ok so this stuff doesn't quite add up. If I follow, what you're saying is that in reading Zephirdd's posts, you thought he might be scum early on. You then went to research previous games of his. After researching it, you noticed that zephirdd was "comfortable" with people that acted "level-headed and nooby". So first question, 1) Can you give us an example from that game of someone acting "level-headed and nooby" and then zephirdd reacting by being "comfortable" with them? You then decided to lay a trap for him. You yourself would act level-headed and nooby by making a case against him, to see how he would respond. He then snaps back at you, and you call this scummy because he didn't wait to build a case on you with other information. Ok I follow that even though it's kind of a stretch. But this is where things go off for me You've laid a trap based on eliciting a particular meta-response He falls for it You... vote for wbg, ninja switch to me, ninja switch to prp, meekly say "oh my votes were kind of rash and jumping the gun. It's a mistake but is it really suspicious?" (paraphrase). Well ok let me think this through. Perhaps it still holds consistency. After all you are accusing zeph for being scummy by springing a trap too early. You had yours, but you didn't want to spring it yet because you wanted more time to build a case. I can sort of buy that. You then accuse him of "feeding the chaos". Personally I don't really see this at all. Has anyone else felt that zephirdd has made this game chaotic? I haven't. The point about calling town reads scummy and posting town reads is a stretch. He's talking about me being scummy because I posted several town reads without explanation. That's different from saying that it's outright scummy to post a town read at all. I think this is confirmation bias looking for more evidence. Next, you can't just say "this post is swiss cheese. Full of holes" and not point out what the holes are. I mean you should give his case an honest response, not just dismiss it out of hand. The last part you should also spell out more. Like you're stating a meta-difference from NMM II to now but you're sort of stating it and going "here, see?" but I'm too obtuse to figure out what exactly is different. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
So you're scum too!? The excitement/activity test strikes again :-) Seriously though I can't be certain I'm just OMGUSing but the case you just made against me is bad for almost the same reasons VE's was bad. + Show Spoiler + On August 07 2012 01:07 Synystyr wrote: Talismania is scum. He pushes this action to confuse town. If Sloosh dies in the night, it gives Talis tons of town cred because he said that medics should protect Sloosh. A little reverse psychology action too by claiming he would kill Sloosh if he were mafia. A hit on Sloosh appears to be be only negative for him and thus making him look innocent by association. He reflects heat off of his scum buddy and himself with this line. Many times throughout the thread, Talis gives WBG a onceover with a "probably town" read and then accuses someone new. Talis is scum with WBG and is trying to protect him. He also wants DTs to check other players other than himself/WBG to avoid being caught. He defends himself before anyone has even pointed a finger at him. This post feels like mafia bait to me, but is instead used so he can point fingers at the person who will make the argument and deflect heat off of him. With the death of Sloosh, it gives him an extremely concrete defense as a townie. Mafia team-roleblock him to make him look like a medic, then doublestack Sloosh in case of a medic. Talis' reasoning to medic sloosh was good, but other players like Toad, Erandorr and SnB come off as town to me and good candidates to be protected over sloosh in the night. There could have been two medics on Sloosh last night, but obviously that was not the case as Sloosh is dead. With that, Talis has everything to gain defensively and gives him a really powerful position to manipulate town as Mafia. His aggressive finger pointing without concrete evidence is his way of appearing town. I'm not buying it. ##Vote Talismana 1) The NK and my alignment is nothing but WIFOM. I mean, help me out other people in this game, but on the outside I wouldn't look at sloosh dying and go "yep that must have been talismania he was doing it for towncred". It could have been, but it just as easily could not have been. It's literally pure WIFOM. So why is this a central plank in your case? By the way - raise your hand out there if you saw the night kill and gave me a ton of town cred. Anyone? 2) Are you really making the argument that I'm scum because WBG is scum, and you're not voting for WBG because you think I'm more likely to be scum yet some of that is predicated on WBG being scum and and and That's why connection cases don't work until you have a flip. For the record, I don't really know what to make of WBG. At the moment, I'm nursing the idea (which you conveniently missed me posting) that actually be scum just trying to get away with as much as possible as a test. Then he can be all superior and yell at us in the endgame. Your DT point also shows you didn't seriously make this case. It's like VE all over again. Yes I said (for good reason) that I would like DTs to check VE and hassy, two of my strongest scumreads at the time. Then I realized after sloosh posted that DTs were just rolecops, not alignment cops so I rescinded everything I said about DTs. But you ignore that completely. And come to think of it my ignorance of how DTs work (as well as toad) is kind of an unintentionally strong town tell. Scum would all know exactly how DTs work because their GF gets to pick what role he appears to DTs, so they would have discussed that somewhat (or at least read the role description) amongst themselves. 3) This is seriously the exact same stuff VE did. I'm "defending myself before anyone has pointed a finger at me" with regards to being roleblocked and the night actions? Well I guess if you took that post in isolation and assumed it was the first post I made on the subject, then yes. But guess what? That wasn't my first post. That was a clarification post. The first post, which you must have seen is here:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=43#850 And it's pretty clearly not me "defending myself before someone accuses me". No it's explaining why I think xsebt is likely to be town, because he seemed genuinely unaware of the correct scum argument. I was aware of the scum argument from daybreak, but there was no need to post it until then, when I think it's a very critical point to make as it directly speaks to this guy's alignment. You cherry-picked this case. What do you make of my case on VE? Does it look like scum wrote it or town wrote it? How and why? If you're going to call me scum, you're going to have to do it based on my whole filter. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 07 2012 01:12 JingleHell wrote: Don't forget that Talis has also been attacking anyone who goes after Erandorr, who somehow got away with mostly dismissing the cases that were made against him while he was helping lead a mislynch. Pretty please can you get out of the erandorr tunnel for just a little bit! You talk about no one else and it's starting to concern me. It sounds here like you're setting yourself up for a vote on me later... so what's your take on me? What about toad, who also thinks erandorr is town and actually led the mislynch? Why aren't you mentioning him? | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On August 07 2012 02:38 talismania wrote: Pretty please can you get out of the erandorr tunnel for just a little bit! You talk about no one else and it's starting to concern me. It sounds here like you're setting yourself up for a vote on me later... so what's your take on me? What about toad, who also thinks erandorr is town and actually led the mislynch? Why aren't you mentioning him? You were the one under discussion at the time. Frankly, this is starting to need some tinfoil headgear, what you're suggesting. Bear in mind, I've been interested in Erandorr since the beginning. I've said my fill about the people who were trying to bully me into voting for someone lower on my scumread totem pole, I just added that so it didn't get forgotten when it was brought up. But right now, you're turning anyone who thinks you're suspicious into some giant grand conspiracy of scum, out to get you personally, come hell or high water. If we were scum, putting all our eggs in one basket that way this early would be about as stupid as it gets. Anyways, you're the one who's wanted me to drop Erandorr so many times. So what, exactly, is wrong with mentioning something to do with you? Also, I'm still not convinced Eran isn't scum, seeing as the primary defense anyone offered was "Vote for someone you think is less scummy", and that guy turned out to be town. That being the case, the only way I'd be setting you up for a vote later (assuming I got my way) would be if Erandorr flipped red. Otherwise, that potential association would go away. And, again, people flipped apeshit any time I tried to say anything about the mighty leaders of the prp lynch, so if I bring them all up at once, I'm just going to sound like you, with some inane conspiracy theory. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
I've seen a few things that make me question his motive for individual statements (don't remember off the top of my head) but overall his play has seemed consistent without being calculated. A lot of it seems to be semantics rather than motivation, and (given some mistakes I've made reading people that way before) I'd prefer to avoid making it all about that. Overall, I really prefer the stuff that started crawling around under the rock I already looked under. Since we don't have any living confirmed townies, I'd prefer to avoid trying to prove innocence, and instead try to prove guilt. Establishing innocence is difficult at best, and an easy way to distract the town, so I'd rather keep an eye out for people making statements that require foreknowledge or have no town motive. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
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