On July 10 2012 15:19 Ver wrote: Do whatever you want pregame but remember once the game begins the bureaucracy will strike down your spam!
Sorry, but you need to make some papers and get the signature of the majority of the players playing this game, plus all hosts/co-host with their approval of your spam policy before you are allowed to strike down spam.
After that, you need to go over to mafiascum.net and other mafia sites, get into a meeting with their administrators to determine the current spam regulations applied universally to all mafia games. After that's done, you have to meet with the administrator of TL, give him the signed paper with all the signatures from players/hosts, and get him to sign a form indicating that they allow you to strike down spam in this site. After that, you need to go back and meet all other mafia sites' administrators, give them this signature and get them to sign a new form giving you permission to enforce their new spam policy in your games.
After that's done, you need to come here again, wait 2 weeks for all proceedings to resolve, and meet with the TL administrator and get him to agree for you to use the spam policy on this particular game ("Bureaucracy Mafia"). After that's done, you need to meet in person with Foolishness and those other guys so they can agree on you enforcing the spam policy in a game that follows the Ban List. If they disagree, you need to go meet the TL administrator again and get him to overrule their disagreement so you can enforce the spam policy. If he's on vacation you need to meet with the administrators of the other mafia sites so they can overrule it; however you need to wait 1 month so they have their schedule free to do so. After this matter is resolved, then you are free to strike down spam once this game begins (following the universal rules of spam-strikedown of course)
On July 12 2012 03:17 gonzaw wrote: Considering usual smurf play these last few games he'll most likely just smurf-fail and post from his real account soon after the game starts, so we'll get to know who he is.
or you're like me and you smurf in a game only to realize no one cares what you think until you claim who you are, then you get called scum based on identity
no really
Hey now.
On July 01 2012 22:44 austinmcc wrote: NoSmurf, initially I read you as one of the more sensible and townie folks in the thread. However, this caught my eye somewhat:
On July 01 2012 10:23 NoSmurfHere wrote: You seem to sincerely believe in such terrible logic, so you're probably town. However I'm not voting BKE just because it's day 1. I don't think anything he's done or said is so far particularly scummy. At no point have I agreed with that terrible case, so why bother acknowledging that the rest of you are idiots for bandwagoning him?
On the other hand mafia lurk to shake suspicion ALL the time. mK seemingly has done exactly this, and if he's mafia certainly it's working.
So, in this case, obviously I'm far more inclined to believe that the guy who is actively trying to stop a bad lynch is town whereas the scummy lurker is not. If mK is town he has a huge incentive to address the votes on him and make a case on his scumreads rather than disappear immediately after voting. Also speculating about his status is pretty stupid when I voted for him fairly quickly after he posted.
On July 01 2012 06:40 EchelonTee wrote: Hey Adam, remember my first game? When sephirothag or whoever crucified himself for no reason? This is the MrZentor variety of it.
I do remember that game, one of my favourites. The difference between sephirotharg and casualman is that sephiroth was trying and making errors, casualman is not even trying at all, just acting obnoxiously.
Vigs, shoot him tonight. Lets not waste a lynch and a full day cycle worth of discussion on someone who is trolling us.
On July 01 2012 10:21 Mandalor wrote:
On July 01 2012 06:25 layabout wrote:
On July 01 2012 06:10 Mandalor wrote:
On July 01 2012 01:46 MajuGarzett wrote:
On July 01 2012 01:42 Mandalor wrote: ##VOTE: BKE
I expected this game to start in like a week or sth. I'll promise to catch up with the thread and be more active beginning tomorrow.
If you're not caught up why did you vote?
I had read the first ten pages and it seemed to be the best option. Haven't changed my mind now that I'vve caught up. It's day1 tho, I don't expect a 100% surefire candidate to pop up this early.
Could you maybe share some of your decision making process?
You know, so that we can see you did more than place your vote on the guy with the most votes.
sure.
On Day1, I feel like there's only two good options for town. a) kill a lurker b) kill a guy that causes trouble just hours into the game
I don't like option a). Playing as mafia is fun. You hang around in a chat channel and make your plans. You're probably more busy with the chat than writing in the thread, but still... you're less likely to lurk. If the mafia is smart, they will have a couple of lurkers, but definitely not the majority so the odds of killing a town lurker is a lot higher on day1.
BKE qualifies for option b). Whether or not he's mafia, I personally don't like people in my game that use words like "scummy" judging people's first post in the game. Noone has posted enough in this game that I could possibly have built a good enough opinion on them, but apparently he can do that. I'm not even going to address his newbie-theory.
I'm not saying I'm sure about BKE whatsoever, but he's our best option in my book.
This post stinks. You seem to be ignoring the obvious third choice for town on day 1: we lynch someone acting scummy. You're recommending we lynch BKE on the basis that you don't like people casting early judgments. This is encouraging a passive game, are you afraid of a little bit of heat?
You seem to want to punish BKE for playing badly rather than lynch him for being scum, a scum's bread-and-butter move. In addition, your vote just looks like a blatant bandwagon on the guy currently leading the vote count, you only justified it afterwards when MajuGarzett questioned you about it 5 hours later.
I think you are scum.
##Vote: Mandalor
this is a good case and these are all things I picked up on myself when I read mandalor's posts.
I am completely fine with Mandalor and mKmKmK being lynched today. Anyone else will take some serious convincing. For now I'm going to keep my vote on mK, but in the interest of consolidation and actually lynching someone I have a scumread on, if that lynch doesn't fly I'll push Mandalor with you.
Care to explain your train of thought? Over the course of 2 hours, you went from "probably town" to "completely fine with Mandalor lynch/scumread on Mandalor." Would like for you to articulate why you changed your read there.
Granted, one of your posts got ninjaed and so that contradiction wasn't there, but I was paying attention to what you said.
On June 11 2012 18:19 Palmar wrote: Supporting an RNG lynch is not a bad idea. It's a net gain for town, as long as you settle the target early enough. It will actually help a lot trying to figure out what really is going on in the game. It creates an unusual situation that most people aren't sure how to react to, and it's in an unstable environment it's easiest to catch mafia. The point is that you can't really explain that in the thread (hence why I didn't) because as soon as everyone realizes you're meant to argue about whether you actually follow through with the random lynch, instead of just executing it, everyone will start thinking about it like a normal case based on analysis, and the advantage will have been lost.
I'm hoping some of you remember this for future games, I've yet to successfully push through the idea of a RL because of it's inherent flaw that you can't explain it. It's like why arguing about LAL is dumb as shit. As soon as you argue about it, you've given people an excuse to lie. You just shut your stupid face and say that it's a 100% solid policy and liars WILL be lynched, while secretly keeping yourself in check and being ready to go against that position.
Anyway, enough about how to play mafia.
The %s may be higher here, but a random lynch still isn't anything but a discussion-generator. That game was 2 scum 1 SK 8 town, 3/11 or 27% chance to hit non-town on a random lynch. This is 9/27, 33% chance. Not higher enough to really matter.
I like the discussion of causing chaos to mess with mafia, to some extent. Just like with the Sleeper Cell games, this isn't normal mafia. Town have the numbers advantage, and, for now, are more or less on even footing information-wise. Scum don't have an advantage UNTIL they get organized. Some forms of being chaotic would be equally harmful to both factions, other forms would be more harmful to town (higher numbers).
However, I don't support trying to cause chaos, because we don't know (and can't know) when mafia will get organized. We can speculate all we want about how many cycles it could take, and how each of us would communicate with mafia underlings were we CEO (see sleeper cell...II? for message speculation), but, especially given the vague comments about censoring messages made by hosts, we just don't know whether mafia can get fully organized, or how long that would take. At some point, IF they can organize, any chaos we cause only hurts town and no longer hurts mafia. Not good.
You can. But you shouldn't. That's right, I'm claiming killable.
On July 16 2012 22:17 austinmcc wrote: [b]I like the discussion of causing chaos to mess with mafia, to some extent. ... However, I don't support trying to cause chaos
As in, QbertZ's bringing it up wasn't a bad idea, but I don't think we should try and make things chaotic.
On July 16 2012 22:30 austinmcc wrote: You can. But you shouldn't. That's right, I'm claiming killable.
On July 16 2012 22:17 austinmcc wrote: [b]I like the discussion of causing chaos to mess with mafia, to some extent. ... However, I don't support trying to cause chaos
As in, QbertZ's bringing it up wasn't a bad idea, but I don't think we should try and make things chaotic.
I imagine you have an opinion on MZ/BH that you'd like to share then if you thought that was good discussion?
I do not have an opinion worth sharing on them atm.
But I'll share something else. Roleplaying sounds like it would be fun in this game. It also sounds like it offers the ability to send extra messages or plans, intelligible only with clues from mafia communications.
Matt, your case on Katina is wrong, regardless of what alignment she is.
I posted that bit from iGrok's game. Some of the players in this game played in that game. At least one of the players here read that game closely. If a random lynch is pro-town because it generates information until you pull back the curtain, then it functions differently here, because the curtain is already pulled back (it took all of like 30 seconds to find that post). Can't assume that he's throwing out the random lynch idea for he same reason as normal.
Katina may be wrong about some bits of her case on Palmar, but I think you're also wrong about her.
Good lord you guys post too much. Read through, need to look closer at the syllo and BH stuff, but first I want to ask this:
Does anyone actually know what sandroba's power is?
On July 17 2012 06:08 sandroba wrote: I can msg people.
I want sandroba to reveal his role. He seems sure that mafia is going to kill him
On July 17 2012 06:08 sandroba wrote: Meh I think mafia is going to kill me anyway so no harm doing this.
... The repercussions of my claim is that even after mafia kills me they can't know for certain there is no other abilities like mine in the game so all their communication is no longer safe. Have fun mafia =P
so there's no harm in revealing.
1-shot? 1 message per half cycle? 1 message per cycle? Please reveal more about your actual power, sandroba, because it's not sitting well with me right now. More than anything else in the thread, I'm curious about this.
On July 18 2012 02:17 VisceraEyes wrote: I believe in sandro's catch on Kurumi. Most of us do, right? So we're operating under the assumtion that scum minion A (Kurumi) has Power A (Nuclear Missile). By my estimation, a power that directly opposes a scum minion's power would, logically, be a town power. The scum team aren't in different factions, they're one BIG faction that don't know each other. So why in the dicks would scum minion B (BH) have scum power B (Anti-Missile) when Power B directly opposes Power A? It makes much more sense to logically assume that BH is town if we're accepting via behavioral analysis that Kurumi is scum.
Am I crazy here?
RoL has also launched a nuke at Kurumi. If Nuclear Missile is mafia-only, that means 2/6 minions had the nuclear missile power (assuming the top 3 don't have powers themselves). That seems like a stretch. I find it more likely that nukes were given to both town and mafia, or only town (although mafia probably has SOME kind of extra kp, given that they only get 1 per night?).
So I think you're wrong in assuming that all nukes are mafia, although if both Kurumi and RoL flip mafia maybe so. If not all nukes are mafia, then mafia might have a minion that can block.
I have no name cache here, that's fine. But read this with an open mind. Seriously read point (1). Consider whether it makes sense.
(1) Sandroba's role is way, way, way too powerful Not a single person here knows how sandroba's power works. Mafia, town, 5th party, whatever. Nobody is curious?
Nobody is thinking, jeez, in a game where mafia cannot communicate except through 2 messages per day cycle, 2 messages per night cycle, and there are NINE of them. A game where they might lynch each other, NK each other, use powers on each other. Nobody is going, holy balls, the ability to SEND FAKE MESSAGES is an incredibly, incredibly powerful role?
Think about it. The way sandroba used it, he's a cop. You ask someone to do something, if they do, they must have assumed it was from a mafia higher-up. So if they obey, they're mafia, you got this game's equivalent of a red check. Moreover, you're a cop that cannot be affected by any kind of framing power. Normal cops can be balanced out by gfs, millers, frames. A red check from a normal cop may or may not indicate scum. Saying "Hey use these 3 phrases in your next post to identify yourself" CANNOT be balanced by any mechanic at all. If they obey a message they received, when they had no idea anyone other than mafia could send messages, they must be mafia. Name a single other explanation, because when kurumi tried to give one, it sounded dumb and everyone agreed it sounded dumb.
Moreover, he's not just a cop. He can check people with that power, AND direct their actions. Not only does he know they're red when they follow orders, he can actively direct mafia action because messages are anonymous. He gets a red check AND gets to direct the actions of a mafia member, tell them who to go after, who to defend, etc.
Oh man, austinmcc, that DOES sound pretty powerful now that I think about it. He's a supercop that can't get false checks in a game where mafia have limited communication? (2) Sandroba has played scum IN a sleeper cell game in which a powerful role fakeclaim helped win the game Well, surely he wouldn't claim such a powerful role, right? He'd wait to use it a few more times. I mean, checks AND mafia action disruption, you'd want to keep that secret. Unless, of course, you'd played in another game where a ridiculous check helped win you the game. You know, like, say, Sleeper Cell Mafia. The game where sandroba rolled mafia with Ace as cell leader and Ace claimed the following role:
On May 02 2011 02:28 Ace wrote: I'm an undercover Agent with 1 shot and get parts intercepted messages from the CL. So I have no more shots anyway and I'm pretty sure we're close to winning this especially seeing how panicked you are. If you are a townie you should be glad I chose correctly because if I missed I'd be automatically killed also. Something tells me you aren't though.
Ace skated by after claiming this, with the only person who was suspicious of his claim being another cell member. In the postgame, there was a decent bit of discussion about how town should have questioned Ace's claim given that he could (1) intercept messages and (2) shoot. Sandroba's claimed power is basically on about that level, because he's a combination cop and...disruptor? There's no name for that other role as far as I know. It's basically a townie who gets to sit in mafia QT but isn't mafia. (3) Sandroba showed balls as a sleeper agent in that same game Ace claimed to have shot GGQ N3. There was only one kill. Sandroba, as scum, claimed vet on D4 in order to account for the missing KP. So we KNOW he's got the balls to fakeclaim as scum in this style of game. We know that having those balls won him a game, as scum, in this style of game. Maybe I'm being paranoid. But maybe that role is a little overpowered to be in a balanced game. Maybe sandroba can play ballsy as scum in this sort of game. Maybe, even if the role isn't overpowered, Sandroba should be smart enough not to out himself because he caught 1/9 of the mafia team with a role that friggin' powerful. Wouldn't you keep that to yourself and catch more? Wouldn't you catch more and actively disrupt mafia communication/actions?
THAT is why I wanted Sandroba to claim. That is why I find him scummy. Get offa mah nuts, because if you actually think about his role, you should be questioning it too. Either scum have RIDICULOUSLY powerful roles to balance things out, or town simply cannot have a guy who ends up being an uncounterable cop PLUS can actively plant fake mafia communications.
On July 18 2012 04:48 syllogism wrote: It's exactly the kind of role I would expect to be in this setup. You know basically nothing about the setup other than the fact the fact town:mafia ratio is extremely abnormal and the immediate conclusion you draw is that this role is too powerful to be town? Why is your focus on the fact that mafia has limited communication instead of there being one mafia for every 2 townies? What exactly would mafia sandroba's motivation here be? Do you think he is CEO or how exactly do you think he communicated with kurumi?
If he actually communicated with kurumi, then he's either a mafia higher-up or some sort of messaging power DOES exist. But he won't tell us exactly what, despite having an incredibly powerful role and thinking he's going to die. Why, as town, if you've got such a powerful role (and are apparently known for good scumhunting) and think you will die, would you not share that information with town?
If kurumi flips red tonight, we don't actually know if he communicated or not.
Even if you think that role is in the game and isn't game-breaking, do you think that sandroba would out himself, as that role, on D1, with a single red check? Does that make sense?
On July 18 2012 04:54 rastaban wrote: But see someone has that role, Kurumi confirmed she received the PM. Mafia can't just PM whoever they want, they get it 1x a night to specific minions. So this powerful role has to exist OR he is scum bussing mafia. Either way we should kill the target (The nuke is doing that for us) and continue to evaluate him. Mafia will need to kill him if he is town, as he has incredible power. If he ends up living for a few nights then yeah lets go back to him and see if he needs lynched, but for now there is no reason to try and do anything about it.
Should he have claimed, I don't know, I think his argument that it makes mafia doubt all PMs is a legit reason to do so, more so when he is outing scum at the same time. Lets make mafia sort this out for now.
You seem to think Kurumi is actually mafia:
On July 17 2012 23:26 rastaban wrote: Don't you think though as town he would have blocked the one on RoL when he learned Kurumi was mafia?
Why are you trusting Kurumi's confirmation of the PM if you think he's mafia? (he, right?)
Bugs
On July 18 2012 04:54 wherebugsgo wrote: Why the hell would mafia need powerful roles when sandro's power can only be considered a oneshot use?
The games setup is designed so that mafia cannot explicitly identify others (no communication to higher ups as it's designed in the OP). Thus , a town role that, if used correctly, PUNISHES mafia for doing so is in line with the setup.
You can't compare it with a full fledged cop because it would only work once. Sandro's not gonna catch a scum with it tomorrow, for example.
Lastly, why do mafia need powerful roles in a setup in which they comprise half of the playerbase? They could kill themselves multiple times and the setup would still be balanced.
Why is sandro's power a oneshot use? He never said it was. If you think it's one shot because mafia will now doubt all messages, then isn't this game broken? The ONLY communication mafia have is these messages, top to bottom. If messages can no longer be trusted, mafia basically has no communication. They've always got to worry whether it's a legit message or town checking them out, and they have to just...guess as to what anonymous source it came from?
The ONLY reason Sandro can't catch someone with it tomorrow is because he claimed it after finding one single scummy player. Before he announced that, he could have caught every last scum with it. You're not looking at his power the right way, because you're looking at it only after he claimed. And even when known, it's still game-breaking.
On July 18 2012 04:59 HiroPro wrote: I can't tell if austin really believes this or not...
austin, can you give me a scum read based on behavior and not just on setup speculation.
austin actually believes this.
You want a scumread based on behavior and not just setup speculation, and you've asked me before, so I will oblige. I'm worried about GGQ
He's posted almost nothing. He's barely been involved in any topics that thread has been discussing (But austinmcc, you've been doing those same things. Yup). He, also has played in a sleeper cell game before (as scum). It's not a perfect match to this style of game, but it's the closest we have. People that played in those games before, even a long time back, are valuable and have insight we should be trusting. But does he really provide that insight? No.
On July 16 2012 19:13 Probulous wrote: So in essence I should have kept that to myself?
I find it highly unlikely that mafia will be pushing strong reads day 1 given the setup. For two reasons, one they may be pushing one of their own, two they will be held accountable. So my thinking was to out to the thread so people are aware of it. Yes mafia are too but all this does is limit their options. How exactly does this help me further my agenda if I am mafia?
My experience playing scum in two Sleeper Cell games tells me that this is the opposite of true. If you aren't burdened by knowledge of your teammates, it's much easier to come out strong on day 1.
See, this is helpful. This is probably a truthful statement. This is someone who has been in those 9 people's shoes, saying how he felt, and it's good to know that.
On July 16 2012 18:59 risk.nuke wrote: Holding people accountable to their day 1 reads is dumb. As always you will want to question people who change their reads drastically or oddly. This however completely-100%-absolutely-have-nothing-in-common-with holding people accountable for their day 1 reads.
Chaos and rockin the boat is equally dumb. I don't know to what effect scum can use their communication but it seems to be very limited. Destroying the atmosphere and towns sense of direction to slightly damage the scums abillity to communicate seems like shooting a mosquito on the foot with a bazooka.
Blazinghand is the one who's spot on.
On July 16 2012 15:32 Blazinghand wrote: @Prob: I think that's Chezinu you got quoted there.
In any case, in this setup it seems pretty straightforwards to me. Analyze like normal, hold people to their views like normal, look for weird unsubstantiated cases like normal. There's more scum and they're less organized, but I don't see why we need to do our D1 or D2 anything different than what we typically do. Just keep an eye open for people doing shit without legit town motives and you're good to go as always.
@Chezinu: Chaos bad
##vote: Chezinu
The only difference between this game and a normal game is everyone needs to scumhunt.
Wait, how is that different from a regular game again?
Just an offhand remark, a little joke, when the topic is one that he could actually contribute something useful towards.
A nothingpost upon getting called out for lurking:
On July 16 2012 19:13 Probulous wrote: So in essence I should have kept that to myself?
I find it highly unlikely that mafia will be pushing strong reads day 1 given the setup. For two reasons, one they may be pushing one of their own, two they will be held accountable. So my thinking was to out to the thread so people are aware of it. Yes mafia are too but all this does is limit their options. How exactly does this help me further my agenda if I am mafia?
My experience playing scum in two Sleeper Cell games tells me that this is the opposite of true. If you aren't burdened by knowledge of your teammates, it's much easier to come out strong on day 1.
On July 17 2012 03:09 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: so mattchew lemme get this right, I'm scummy because I "seems to be trying to look sensible and not shitstorm causing." Umm... duh so basically I'm scum because I'm playing protown? That's some pretty wicked logic there.
cause you are playing an easy to fake pro-town without actually doing anything pro-town
That's bullshit and you know it lol.
you have said the word "chaos" or talked about town stability in almost every post you have made. Did you elect yourself town peacekeeper? Because basically every one of your posts has extremely little to do with actually finding and lynching scum
Actually I'm playing smart and waiting until I have a solid case before I go after someone. In contrast, you have your idiotic crusade against katina and that's it. Discussion should be currently centered around Palmar for his inability/refusal to play. BH should be a secondary consideration for his random wild play. And of course I still haven't forgot chez and the smurf, I'm interested to see if they start playing as well.
This may come as a shock but it's not always a good idea to shit up the thread with random cases. My lack of a formal "case" is way better than your little spat with Katina.
What? Why? What would that accomplish? How would that help us find scum? Palmar does that shit all the time. It's stupid and unhelpful but arguing about it has never changed him before and it won't now.
##vote blazinghand
He comments on palmar, gives 0 reasoning why he likes BH as a candidate. Never has. Never has mentioned BH.
Layabout's first contributions were basically the same thoughts I had. Thoughts that I think everyone should have had.
On July 17 2012 06:32 layabout wrote: If sandroba can message people why did he reveal his power after outing a single player that he could have pushed without revealing his power?
On July 17 2012 07:00 layabout wrote: Sandro why did you claim that you could trick mafia into revealing themselves when you had only tricked one player?
PSA: No talking to kurumi and spamming up the thread!
What separates RoL is that...he's being nuked? Why would anyone make a case on RoL, when he's almost guaranteed to flip tonight? He's not worth looking at, considering, anything, unless he (1) posts something (hasn't) or (2) doesn't die tonight (we'll see).
I think sandro's other conduct isn't outright scummy. He's on BH for a bit during the initial flurry of discussion. He's pushing BH hard. After he catches kurumi, we see votes on kurumi. After kurumi gets a nuke sent his way, all votes leave kurumi for syllogism and BH. Sandro returns to give some minor comments on BH, but he's not pushing for BH's lynch with the same vigor as before. Why is Sandro, who was pushing BH relatively hard early, not pushing even HARDER now that people think he's confirmed town? Especially given that he finds syllo, the other top candidate, odd but doesn't want to kill him yet.
To be fair, I think sandro is fine for feeling that way about syllo. I got no problems with that argument this game, that we can leave certain players alive a few days, watch their hunting, and then reevaluate come D3-4. But I don't love that it doesn't feel like he's pushing BH quite as hard after he caught kurumi, more like he's sitting back going, "Yeah, I look so mothereffing townie right now, time to chillax."
We can. I don't want to. Syllo hasn't made up a ridiculous role (I know some people don't agree, I still see the role as ridiculous). The main reason I'm pushing Sandro is because his role is ridiculous, and when offered a chance to reveal it (maybe it turns out his role is 1-shot, then it becomes believable and doesn't cripple mafia's only source of information once he reveals), he doesn't, despite thinking he's going to get shot.
Because my read isn't based on his demeanor, his posting style, something off about his reads (something you can check on for a day or two), I don't want to leave him up.
On July 18 2012 05:47 sandroba wrote: Because right now I'm reading the thread and actually trying to figure out who has the most chance of all people I think are scum to flip scum. It is likely, since most people believe me to be near confirmed status, that my input will likely decide whoever gets lynched, so I need to think about this carefully before making my move. Before I didn't have this much influence so I could afford to be wrong and produce information by pushing someone hard. Now if I'm wrong it's likely to be way more damaging so excuse me while I weigh my options.
I will say that I like this explanation. That's a valid reason to push less hard. It doesn't sit 100% right, because you still slightly pushed BH and were asking about BH, but not pushing as hard because you're going to carry more weight is legitimate.
On July 18 2012 05:50 austinmcc wrote: We can. I don't want to. Syllo hasn't made up a ridiculous role (I know some people don't agree, I still see the role as ridiculous). The main reason I'm pushing Sandro is because his role is ridiculous, and when offered a chance to reveal it (maybe it turns out his role is 1-shot, then it becomes believable and doesn't cripple mafia's only source of information once he reveals), he doesn't, despite thinking he's going to get shot.
Because my read isn't based on his demeanor, his posting style, something off about his reads (something you can check on for a day or two), I don't want to leave him up.
This post in retarded as fuck I'm sorry. Why wouldn't I as town opt to cripple mafia's only source having a role capable of doing so or not. Why would I opt to give mafia certainty instead of doubt?
The role itself already cripples mafia. You can plant false messages. You can direct their targets. It's not a choice between giving mafia certainty and giving mafia doubt. Here's the super important distinction. It's actually a choice between giving mafia certainty that they shouldn't have (they are certain any directions are coming from scumbuddies, when in fact they are being directed by a townie) vs. giving mafia doubt. Insert some philosophical line about the enemy you don't see being more dangerous than the enemy you do see.
If I were mafia why would I not BS claim fully?
Why not fully claim as any alignment? You think you're going to get shot.
You realize that even if I'm mafia I'm fucking my own team by doing this, since if I have this power as a minion only one person on the mafia team knows that I'm mafia as well.
Why would you actually have this power if you're mafia? I'm not claiming you have this power and are mafia, I'm claiming you're mafia and have made it up.
If you can explain me how I profit as mafia by doing what I did and how it is more likely for me to be mafia then town, you are free to keep yapping about your insane conspiracy theory. However if you insist on trying to force the situation into your own mold of reality I must conclude you have an agenda behind your posts.
What's mafia's main advantage in this game? Large numbers. What's mafia's main disadvantage this game? Less information, can't confirm each other.
BOTH of these lead to it being more likely mafia will kill each other. Accidentally, or on purpose (the cost of bussing a member of a 9-man team is less than the cost of bussing a member of a 3 or 6-man team). Since you don't know each other's identities, you don't get much town cred from just voting a guy. But making up a role to trick scum into outing themselves, now there's some town cred. Normal bussing = less cred this game. So you've just figured out a creative way to bus to get yourself cred.
Okay, sorry. Had to finish up some stuff for Can't Believe, so I haven't been around an hour. Took a glance, see I'm still a focus. So here's my response based on what was flying around an hour ago. Spoilering my defense/response, because if you absolutely aren't going to believe me at this stage, then I don't want to take up room, already done that enough in a thread that's way oversized.
(2) Marv is correct about this, and Bugs is slightly off:
I have posted conspiracy theory crap before, in LV, as town. If you want specific posts, you can check out whatever pages bugs pointed you to. If you want choice posts, look at - This, This, This. There's a sample.
I pushed that theory hard enough that I was "tinfoil hat guy" for a while. Toad called me that, a few players called me that at the start of LVI I believe.
When I was confirmed wrong, I dropped it hard. Once it wasn't possible, done. If Kurumi flips green, I drop this idea here. I'll even include a pic like this one - Better than BH's pics.
(3) Marv is absolutely wrong about me not doing this as scum. I would probably try and get my scumbuddies to pull ridiculous plans, because those seem to win if you pull them off, and they seem like they'd be fun. This, however, is not that.
(4) I haven't played enough games for this to be legit, and it shouldn't convince anyway. But I'm throwing it out here anyway. Games where I've had a weird suspicion early on, they've been good. I found Forumite odd in LV, when other people had him really town - Here. He flipped third party assassin, so not scum. I found talismania odd in Can't Believe, where I just got shot. I don't want to own up to making the posts where I called him scum, so you can go get those yourself. He flipped scum. My two weird ass early suspicions have been correct. NOBODY went "oh man, nice case on forumite." NOBODY went "oh man, nice case on talismania." But they were both off, and I was correct, despite getting votes and being called scummy for suspecting forumite (and playing retardedly D1 in Can't Believe)
(5) Sloosh brings up a good point. I'm getting attacked, by some, for not pointing out a decent enough reason for scummy Sandro to do what I say he's doing. Fair enough. All I can say is that it was for cred, that's the best scummy motive I have from Sandro. Me wanting to find out sandro's role is a good reason for me to ask him to claim. Me wanting to find out sandro's role is NOT a good reason for the rest of the day. If I don't get a role, if I don't get any support, I'd back off of it.
(6) Specific to Marv. I haven't done much hunting. I've been busy with Can't Believe. Anyone here can go check my posts. Anyone here can see that I flipped mason, which means not only was I posting in thread, but I was active with my mason buddy. That means I was pulling MORE than a normal game of activity, keeping active in 2 threads for 1 game, while this game filled up like 40 pages. Note what I HAVE done this game though:
When Palmar throws out the RL idea, I've seen this before. I go grab the specific post where he discusses why he throws out RL, bring it to thread's attention. In my mind, I'm contributing by doing this, because town can stop discussing the RL, which Palmar knows is bogus, and which Palmar has told some townies in this game is bogus.
I contribute this Sandro theory. You guys may think it's balls. You may think it's the most ridiculous thing you've heard. But I do contribute, instead of sitting on my ass. I could have given a half-assed reason for voting BH or syllogism. I wouldn't have stuck out at all, lots of players have done that. There was no reason for me, as scum, in a game where you really don't want to stick your neck out as scum (because you don't have the scumbuddy support of a normal game), to not just sheep a case on BH or syllogism. They were out there. I'm newer and less well known. Nobody would have thought twice.
I haven't scumhunted a ton. But I've presented sandro which you don't agree with, and GGQ, which some people do. While that's not too much, realize that I've basically made three contributions - the Palmar RL post, the sandro theory, a dinky post on GGQ. Even with the GGQ post being dinky, that's more than plenty of players have done this game. If you want to hunt non-scumhunters, go after someone who's done less than I have. I was busy with another game's deadline yesterday AND being a mason in that game. Still busy in that game, mason QT, and work today. I've contributed where I thought I could.
Was waiting around to see Can't Believe's flip, and then wanted to stay and post that. Now that I'm done with those two things, I'm headed home. Gonna rest a bit and eat, will return in an hour and a half or so. If people are still on my jock, I'll keep responding. But you guys should knock it off with voting me.
On July 18 2012 09:13 austinmcc wrote: Votes, which should be good as of Prob's 9:03 vote, and nothing posted since then. Don't take em as gospel though.
Some of the tags are messed up. Some people have voted me in the main thread, but not the voting thread. I think zealos and layabout may have done that?
Before you get on my case about counting votes. It's way easier than defending oneself. It's also helpful to me, because I'm sitting here kind of interested in how many votes I have and WHO is voting for me.
I'd prefer to vote for GGQ (or Sandro), but those aren't lynch options. Gonzaw looks like the candidate on the block now, and I'm okay with a gonzaw vote
On July 18 2012 04:17 gonzaw wrote: @Palmar: Could you post why you think me, GGQ and others are scum? I agree about syllo and Foo, but that's not news at all.
...
I haven't read MZ, GGQ, austin, and other's but I will after I come home in a few hours.
Besides the other stuff that's been mentioned, here's Gonzaw giving some specific filters that he's going to read.
Gonzaw comes back from reading those with:
On July 18 2012 08:31 gonzaw wrote: About austin:
I don't get why he's obsessing so much with sandro's role. I'd understand having that first suspicion if he actually believed something was wrong (like in that post I mentioned), but he spent posts and posts and posts dealing with sandro's claim and ability and it clogged up the thread too much. I don't get why he'd do that as town, specially since his doubts of sandro's claim were dealt with by other people, he didn't need to keep cluttering things up with it. There are little things that don't make me confident in him being scum, like some of the confidence he seems to have in his posts, and the fact that he "overposts" like this as town. I'm not that confident in lynching him, but I think he has more chances of flipping scum than BH.
##Unvote: Foolishness ##Vote: austin
I don't see MZ being scum after skimming his filter. Damn I don't have much time for this, this game is huge :/ After I come back from the gym I'll post more thoroughly
So he skimmed MZ, finds him townie. Looked at my filter, had mixed feelings, but still voted me. It feels a little off to me that he doesn't mention GGQ, the third player he was going to look at.
If GGQ is such an easy target, why not add GGQ? Why not mention you found him scummy? Does Gonzaw have feelings so mixed on GGQ that he looks better than me? That's a little hard for me to believe. I'm know I'm a topic of conversation at this point, but he still finds time to mention that he read MZ and give his read on MZ. Sort of makes it seem like he didn't read.
It ain't much, but it's something that stuck out to me beyond me just saying "I like non-austin targets, sheeping dat vote"
If kurumi flips green, I 100% drop it. If kurumi flips red, I'll continue to think that Sandro's power doesn't exist, that it's a fakeclaim, and that he's scum. I won't be as vocal about it for a while, because clearly that isn't going anywhere.
I guess if nothing else this shows that I seriously believe what I'm saying?
My issue is mainly that I don't think such a role exists in this game. If kurumi flips green, whether he was stupid for going along with the message or not (and I think not is out, because he would have told us if the message were something different), the message still CAME to him. My problem is that the power to send messages anonymously to anyone in this game doesn't feel right. The green flip would show that that power exists. My problems with sandro's alignment stem from not thinking the power exists and that it's a fakeclaim.
60 pages of D1 and we take up another half a page with discussion about mattchew's hypothetical genie wish...
GGQ still looks bad to me. He returns with:
On July 18 2012 11:24 GGQ wrote: Why did I vote BH without mentioning even a single word about him? To see what would happen, of course!
Most people's responses were good; just asking me why or making little noises of disgust. The only one who tried to construe it as scummy was Austin the squirming mafia.
Why did I vote BH at all? Because he was being active and throwing his vote around without doing anything and seemed very concerned with his own activity, as if it was justifying something. I believed and still believe he is scum.
I get very bad vibes from HiroPro. His posts all feel like he's just putting in his time.
There's a bunch of other possible mafias in my mind, but another day another noose.
The case on gonzaw feels weaker than the one on austin to me. I prefer to lynch BH or austinmcc, but I'll switch before deadline if it's necessary to get a lynch.
GGQ voted BH 32 hours before this post. He explains his naked vote by saying he wanted "to see what would happen." Yet he waits 32 hours, until right before a lynch, to tell us what he learned, what wisdom he gained in those 32 hours. And all we get is that "most people's responses were good." That means some responses WEREN'T good. He doesn't say who gave those no-good responses (except me).
Everything else he posted in his recent post is bland. HiroPro gives bad vibes. There are other possible mafia in his mind (seriously? We know there are NINE mafia. There better be other possible mafia in his mind). Case on gonzaw is weaker, but again, no real specifics.
I also still feel like, given that he's played scum in both previous sleeper cell games, he's being way too lurky and passive, when he could be a serious asset to town given that he knows better than anyone here how scum may act this game. The one comment about how it's easier to come out strong on day 1 is all that he's given us.
Anyone else really liking this idea, or some form of it?
On July 19 2012 02:22 VisceraEyes wrote: We should have had 1) our target and 2) his/her counterwagon decided at least 12 hours before deadline...but it's D1 and we didn't, so there you have it.
For all the talk about how votes were swapped/the deadline sucked/no lynches suck, I think this was really the only suggestion that proposed a decent way of dealing with those problems. It's not perfect, but I feel like it's certainly better than all the swapping last night, and despite Foolishness's admonitions about vote swapping leading to no-lynches, we've got so many different reads being thrown around that the thread is clogged with options and I don't really see us doing a great job consolidating through that early on future days.
Maybe the deadline change helps with a few players, but as long as we enforce it, does anyone think that shaving off...maybe even 8 hours from the day cycle is going to lead us to a much worse lynch than a full 48 hours' discussion?
On July 19 2012 06:24 HiroPro wrote: VE/austin, please read pages 73-74 and tell me what you think of Zealos.
This one is just silly. You're asking me what I think about a guy who replaced in, made roughly one post wherein he voted for the guy that "seemed to have a decent case on him"/"seemed most scummy recently," never voted in the votethread, never returned during the day, and, upon returning, has called kurumi an "influential town player."
Nobody can look at that and go - #1 town read!
If he goes with his stated plan:
On July 19 2012 05:26 Zealos wrote: I'll just go ahead and vote for BH at the start of day2 then leave you guys to it. bb,
then that's just pretty terrible and I'd love to see him lynched or shot.
But tbh, all his scumminess seems to come from doing absolutely nothing. Like, less than minimal effort. Not posting. Not reading the thread. Not voting. That's a LOT of attention to call to oneself, to not vote. So even those his lack of contribution is scummy, I'd rather he's not up for lynch this cycle. We've already got scum in Kurumi, who we thought would die so didn't lynch yesterday, so there's 1 kill. I still think GGQ looks incredibly scummy, and i haven't seen anyone (there may have been one post in which someone just said "GGQ always plays like this") defend GGQ or call him town. So I don't see why that isn't kill #2. Just because he's "obvious" or "easy to build a case on," doesn't mean we shouldn't lynch him...
That leaves Zealos, at the very least, third for me. So for now I'll find him scummy, but want to lynch others over him, and see if he actually contributes/reads thread/does anything.
I am very confident that GGQ is scum. His filter is not even one page long. (Actually 5 in-game posts.) "How can you say anything about the guy then, Kurumi?" Some of you have pointed out that Mafia's biggest objective is to survive. You can do it vanilla style - try to blend in during the discussion. You can do it lurker style - just avoid the fire and appear when everything's a little more silent... There's always false townie style, where you basically try to forget about your role and go with the flow while trying to keep in mind who's good target and who's not. As we've seen so far, being a lurker in this game is a GREAT option. We've been attacking each other like mad. If it wasn't an in-game attack, it was an attack on person her/himself. We've got a good player lurking like mad for no reason. It's already Day 2. If he was really occupied, guess what - he'd get replaced, just like two guys already, but he has no reason to ask for one. When I call him out that he is actively lurking(I am going to count how much it takes you to respond to this GGQ by the way)
On July 17 2012 03:36 GGQ wrote:
On July 17 2012 03:27 Kurumi wrote:
On July 17 2012 03:25 GGQ wrote:
On July 16 2012 19:13 Probulous wrote: So in essence I should have kept that to myself?
I find it highly unlikely that mafia will be pushing strong reads day 1 given the setup. For two reasons, one they may be pushing one of their own, two they will be held accountable. So my thinking was to out to the thread so people are aware of it. Yes mafia are too but all this does is limit their options. How exactly does this help me further my agenda if I am mafia?
My experience playing scum in two Sleeper Cell games tells me that this is the opposite of true. If you aren't burdened by knowledge of your teammates, it's much easier to come out strong on day 1.
Why are you active lurking?
wtf are you talking about?
How does that answer sound to you? It's strict denial. He sees nothing wrong with his play. He feels no guilt. Why would he? There's a post by him in this quote too. He shares... a little of his knowledge... HE HAS PLAYED TWO DAMN SLEEPER CELL GAMES. Everything he has to tell us is that Mafia do whatever they please on Day 1. Solid advice here man.
On July 17 2012 03:42 GGQ wrote:
On July 17 2012 03:36 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On July 17 2012 03:27 Mattchew wrote:
On July 17 2012 03:21 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On July 17 2012 03:13 Mattchew wrote:
On July 17 2012 03:09 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: so mattchew lemme get this right, I'm scummy because I "seems to be trying to look sensible and not shitstorm causing." Umm... duh so basically I'm scum because I'm playing protown? That's some pretty wicked logic there.
cause you are playing an easy to fake pro-town without actually doing anything pro-town
That's bullshit and you know it lol.
you have said the word "chaos" or talked about town stability in almost every post you have made. Did you elect yourself town peacekeeper? Because basically every one of your posts has extremely little to do with actually finding and lynching scum
Actually I'm playing smart and waiting until I have a solid case before I go after someone. In contrast, you have your idiotic crusade against katina and that's it. Discussion should be currently centered around Palmar for his inability/refusal to play. BH should be a secondary consideration for his random wild play. And of course I still haven't forgot chez and the smurf, I'm interested to see if they start playing as well.
This may come as a shock but it's not always a good idea to shit up the thread with random cases. My lack of a formal "case" is way better than your little spat with Katina.
What? Why? What would that accomplish? How would that help us find scum? Palmar does that shit all the time. It's stupid and unhelpful but arguing about it has never changed him before and it won't now.
##vote blazinghand
He tries to shift focus off from Palmar. He is defending him telling people that Palmar is just like that. That's what Palmar should've probably said, right? Look at how this post ends "has never changed him before and it won't now" it's a decisive NO. And this BH vote. He did explain it, right?
On July 18 2012 11:24 GGQ wrote: Why did I vote BH without mentioning even a single word about him? To see what would happen, of course!
Most people's responses were good; just asking me why or making little noises of disgust. The only one who tried to construe it as scummy was Austin the squirming mafia.
Why did I vote BH at all? Because he was being active and throwing his vote around without doing anything and seemed very concerned with his own activity, as if it was justifying something. I believed and still believe he is scum.
I get very bad vibes from HiroPro. His posts all feel like he's just putting in his time.
There's a bunch of other possible mafias in my mind, but another day another noose.
The case on gonzaw feels weaker than the one on austin to me. I prefer to lynch BH or austinmcc, but I'll switch before deadline if it's necessary to get a lynch.
TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN? Sounds like someone doesn't freaking care about the lynch? Wait, he does care, look at the last line!
Why would a person with no thread presence try to defend Palmar? GGQ has NEVER said anything about Palmar. Never EVER. If you were searching for a guy trying to survive - here you go. Why would you lurk as Town in this game? With 1KP, Mafia has little power to do anything to stop you from acting. Sure, they might have roleblockers, maybe politicians or anti-nukers, but it's the cases which should win games. Palmar and Bill Murray are playing similar style, where they mostly post one-liners or troll material. Palmar just now started pushing layabout hard (without proper case, just some meta to back it up). GGQ has a lot of knowledge. It is Day 2 and he hasn't shared ANY of it. He is denying us information. No cases made, no activity in the thread, NOTHING. He is trying for his survival. If he comes guns blazing at any point in the game... I think you'll get it that he's scum. I am voting GGQ. ##vote GGQ
Surely all these points can be made against me. So what makes him any more scummy than me?
(1) GGQ has played in both sleeper cell games. GGQ has been scum in both sleeper cell games. GGQ has particular knowledge of both similar setups AND how mafia play in similar setups. He has not been vocal at all with any of this information. All we know is that in his experience, it's easy to come out strong D1 as mafia (and, if it does anything for you, then plays the EXACT OPPOSITE of how he says he plays mafia D1). Nothing more.
(2) Your reason for voting me D1 was you were just sheeping town sentiment at the time you looked at thread. GGQ's reasoning for his no-reasoning-in-thread vote on BH was:
On July 18 2012 11:24 GGQ wrote: Why did I vote BH without mentioning even a single word about him? To see what would happen, of course!
Most people's responses were good; just asking me why or making little noises of disgust. The only one who tried to construe it as scummy was Austin the squirming mafia.
He doesn't say who "most people" are that looked good. He doesn't say who didn't look good, except me.
Overall, he's ... more useful? to town because of (1) than you are, but hasn't been giving any effort to help. So that's worse than you. And his reason for his vote D1 was worse than yours. You claim to have basically done no work to place your vote. He claims to have voted for a reason, to get information, then doesn't seem to have any specific information.
(Also because he's been scum in both sleeper cell games. For those that like speculation for vets, GGQ is the most experienced player in this game at playing scum under similar conditions, although he was not cell leader in either one)
On July 20 2012 06:13 Blazinghand wrote: austinmcc you still think Zealos is scum though right?
Less scummy than GGQ, but yeah. To me, GGQ is scum, and that read seems unlikely to change. Zealos is scummy, but with a possibility of that read changing? They're entering the game with different experience, and so even though they're both contributing about equally this game, I'm getting slightly different levels of scumread on them.
On July 20 2012 08:50 marvellosity wrote: I would not be surprised. I could easily think of a townie being obstinate and saving their nuke on the basis that Kurumi was going to die anyway. And there's probably other silly reasons too.
Well we will know by the end of the day. If there is no nuke sent at Zealos then we have no nuke. This is why I want to know if there are still people who think BH is scum. Either I can explain my logic to them and save them the hassle of tunnelling a likely town, or they can point out to me why I am being stupid, or they are scum. It's a win-win-win.
What is your logic?
Why would scum need a nuke blocking ability? Kurumi is the only person who had a nuke (assumption but lack of other nuke so far makes me confident on this), he is likely scum from his actions. Ergo, why would mafia need a nuke blocking ability. Bare in mind they only have 6 power roles, one of which is apparently a nuke. So that leaves 5. Giving them a useless role would be really detrimental to them.
Protactinium posted that Kurumi shot a nuke and that RoL shot a nuke. We know they shot nukes. We do not know if anyone else has nukes, but are assuming they do not.
BH has claimed to be able to block a nuke. We do not know if he actually has this power. VE has (fakeclaimed, for funsies?) to be able to block a nuke. We do not know if he actually has this power.
- Kurumi's PM said to do something, which he did - Zealos didn't say anything about his PM
The responses are different. Kurumi obeyed a PM when we didn't know anyone but mafia could send messages. Zealos didn't mention his PM, and either hasn't read thread or is pretending not to read thread and know about Sandroba's claim, and either didn't understand that the message sounded like mafia orders or is pretending not to understand what it sounded like.
On July 21 2012 03:18 austinmcc wrote: - Kurumi's PM said to do something, which he did - Zealos didn't say anything about his PM
The responses are different. Kurumi obeyed a PM when we didn't know anyone but mafia could send messages. Zealos didn't mention his PM, and either hasn't read thread or is pretending not to read thread and know about Sandroba's claim, and either didn't understand that the message sounded like mafia orders or is pretending not to understand what it sounded like.
the natural response, as a townie, if you received a PM that looked like orders, is to post it to the thread. why would you do anything but that? The only reason you wouldn't is if you were scum and you thought those orders were for you.
So he is either pretending not to understand that the message sounded like mafia orders OR he actually didn't interpret it that way
On July 21 2012 03:46 sandroba wrote: And by the way, 2 people messaged kurumi. Me on day1 and someone who is not chezinu on night 1 (chezinu messaged wbg).
No. Chezinu said that he did NOT message WBG
On July 20 2012 14:41 Chezinu wrote: For instance, I knows I didn't write no message to WBG.. and sand no wrote a message to WBG... so who R did?
Chezinu, as far as I can tell, has claimed to message:
D1 - ? N1 - BH D2 - VE
I think? Slightly unsure of the timing on the BH message.
On July 20 2012 16:44 Chezinu wrote: FYI, the message I sent on day 1 was never posted... Muahhahaha I control the minionz muahhahaha.. I wonder if the person I messaged was a chairman... I wonder if he still is following my orders... orders that will reveal to me all of the mafia!!! muahahhahaaha
On July 21 2012 05:45 Kurumi wrote: You are getting this all wrong syllogism. If I flip mafia (which I won't) then sandroba's actions are nullified. Then you need to back your actual reads with analysis. When I flip Town, then it becomes transparent that sandroba's Town(there is a chance he's a minion with a wonky power, but... that'd hurt my head.) Sandie, I've never asked: Why did you pick me to send this message?
Sandroba would never sacrifice two minions (remember, Zealos also confirmed being messaged by him) to earn himself some town cred when the most likely result of that town cred would be getting shot by mafia ceo n1. Even if we knew nothing else, that is enough to consider him pretty much confirmed town.
You're entirely wrong...
If Sandroba had the option to "sacrifice two minions" then you're saying he's the President of Marketing or Chairman of the Board. Those are the two roles with minions to be sacrificed.
If Sandroba were either of those roles, then the CEO would know him, because CEO knows the identity of those two roles.
On July 21 2012 05:58 syllogism wrote: You are right about the CEO part, but you can ignore that part and it still makes no sense at all.
You are relying on the fact that Sandroba would not sacrifice minions for town cred, because it would lead to him getting shot by the mafia CEO.
On July 21 2012 05:49 syllogism wrote:
Sandroba would never sacrifice two minions (remember, Zealos also confirmed being messaged by him) to earn himself some town cred when the most likely result of that town cred would be getting shot by mafia ceo n1. Even if we knew nothing else, that is enough to consider him pretty much confirmed town
That is untrue. The CEO knows the identity of both players in the position to sacrifice minions. He would not shoot them. There is ZERO risk of getting shot by the CEO for the two sub-bosses, he knows who they are.
If you "ignore" the CEO part and claim that scum Sandroba makes no sense, then what you're left with is ... "scum would never kill other scum for town cred." Which is false. Sandroba is not confirmed. We do not know his alignment. We do not know his power. We do not even know Kurumi and Zealos's alignments.
You are coming to wrong conclusions by assuming some things that we don't know yet AND misunderstanding the setup.
On July 21 2012 06:11 rastaban wrote: Austin stop please, this is an argument you can not win. Just send his name in tonight and let the CEO take care of. Trying to get him lynched or power stolen is not the way to go,.
Kurumi, I believe you. Will review your posts when you flip blue. Don't take it too hard, this happened to gonzaw a few games ago in bang bang. Sometimes a slip up, even when town is too much and it there is nothing that can be done about it.
Do you even understand what the argument is? Read the posts. Syllo states that a sub-boss would not bus two minions for town cred, because it would make him a target for the N1 shot. The CEO determines who gets shot, and knows the identity of both sub-bosses. Syllo is entirely wrong about a bussing sub-boss being a target for the N1 shot. Read my posts, read VE's post above.
I've not said anything about BM and power stealing, because that's all nonsense right now. That's a discussion between matt and others that is going on at the same time.
On July 21 2012 06:16 rastaban wrote: @austinmcc, We kill them, then who does he message? well now he has to buss his last team mate since thats the only guy to message. now what? oh my power quit? no he has to message someone else. so all that bussing for nothing.
I'm not saying it's the best plan ever. But let's see, if you want to play that game:
(1) Sandro: "Heavens to betsy, it appears my power has been stolen/blocked today" (2) Sandro: "I lied, my power is actually x-shot" (3) Sandro has a minion who can message town. Sandro is down 2/3 minions, so he is messaging the remaining minion every half cycle. Each half cycle, Sandro sends the minion a prepackaged message and a target to send it to. The minion sends the message, townie confirms that he received a message, Sandroba claims he sent it, and also can give the content of the message to confirm himself as the sender. Ta da. Messages every half cycle, confirming Sandroba. (Done off top of head, but I think this works?)
Guh, I'm now involved in another pointless discussion. Here's the root of it all:
We don't know nearly as much as we keep assuming we do.
We jump to conclusions about Kurumi's alignment, Sandroba's power, what powers exist and don't, blah blah blah. Then we spend time and pages arguing about the conclusions that we've jumped to.
Frankly, Foolishness looks townie to me for pointing out how much energy we've spent discussing D3 lynch targets and other crap. He made some good points today that he didn't spend 8 hours debating back and forth, just dropped them and left.
On July 21 2012 06:31 austinmcc wrote: Guh, I'm now involved in another pointless discussion. Here's the root of it all:
We don't know nearly as much as we keep assuming we do.
We jump to conclusions about Kurumi's alignment, Sandroba's power, what powers exist and don't, blah blah blah. Then we spend time and pages arguing about the conclusions that we've jumped to.
Frankly, Foolishness looks townie to me for pointing out how much energy we've spent discussing D3 lynch targets and other crap. He made some good points today that he didn't spend 8 hours debating back and forth, just dropped them and left.
I said the same before Foolishness! Why are you voting me? Null tell at best.
Nobody's claimed that they sent foolishness a message with orders which Foolishness followed.
On July 21 2012 06:31 austinmcc wrote: Guh, I'm now involved in another pointless discussion. Here's the root of it all:
We don't know nearly as much as we keep assuming we do.
We jump to conclusions about Kurumi's alignment, Sandroba's power, what powers exist and don't, blah blah blah. Then we spend time and pages arguing about the conclusions that we've jumped to.
Frankly, Foolishness looks townie to me for pointing out how much energy we've spent discussing D3 lynch targets and other crap. He made some good points today that he didn't spend 8 hours debating back and forth, just dropped them and left.
I said the same before Foolishness! Why are you voting me? Null tell at best.
Nobody's claimed that they sent foolishness a message with orders which Foolishness followed.
Tell me, if someone were to forge a pm and we'd get into crossfire of who's lying and who's not, who'd you lynch first? The Messenger or The Messenged?
There's no issue of forgery with the PM you received. I had to go back and check your filter, you've never said Sandro didn't send you that message.
why do you guys even want to eleminate executives. I thought they have no powers?!
You're quoting me, so I assume I'm part of "you guys"
(1) I didn't move my vote. I want to lynch kurumi (conditional sorry, if you're town, kurumi!) (2) We are the 99% (3) I'm unsure yet if I like the idea of focusing executives or focusing minions. There's definitely a tradeoff between powers and communication. I've not been part of this Operation: CEObliterate.
On July 20 2012 14:22 Chezinu wrote: can anyone here guess my abilities?
Say you got fired from your current job. Would your updated resume say you had expertise working in the mail room, or would you be more experienced with HR and hiring?
Sloosh, the person who suggested mirrored roles was Chezinu - + Show Spoiler +
On July 20 2012 14:16 Chezinu wrote: hmmm 3 executives that can message...3 workers in the department of communication for town.. 1 mafia nuker... 1 dud nuker town...
so.. 1 town Judge (pardoner) ... one mafia..... oh noes!!@! kurumi might not die!
but then there is the ninja mind controlling vote stealing thief...
On July 20 2012 14:44 Blazinghand wrote: Wait so did Chez message me? or was that some other guy? Sandro says it wasn't him.
Isn't it funny how the CEO has the names of the roles of the mafia and like there is possibly a townie who could have a list of them be roles? if the mirror is true.. if and only if kurumi is mafiaz. then as nuke to dud rocket... list of roles is to...
- Those posts are off slightly because Kurumi was town, so we weren't actually looking at mirrored nuke/dud roles, and we probably don't have mirrored roles overall. Unsure yet whether he actually believed what he was writing.
In light of you bringing up the mirroring posts, prob saying Chez knew his role, and VE voting Chez, gonna throw out a little Chez role speculation.
On July 20 2012 14:22 Chezinu wrote: can anyone here guess my abilities?
Say you got fired from your current job. Would your updated resume say you had expertise working in the mail room, or would you be more experienced with HR and hiring?
He's claimed to be the director of communication and to have messaging powers (mail room) but it also seemed like other bits pointed towards a role cop (HR, I wanted to play along and be half-cryptic)
In favor of a role-knowing role
Isn't it funny how the CEO has the names of the roles of the mafia and like there is possibly a townie who could have a list of them be roles? if the mirror is true.. if and only if kurumi is mafiaz. then as nuke to dud rocket... list of roles is to...
made it sound like he was letting on that there was a rolecop, or a townie with a list of town role names to mirror the scum having a list of role names or powers. Prob's statement kind of confirms that.
However, Chezinu seemed to think that Blazinghand's ##block was real, and that BH could protect him - + Show Spoiler +
On July 20 2012 14:44 Blazinghand wrote: Wait so did Chez message me? or was that some other guy? Sandro says it wasn't him.
wait a minute! I just realized... are you saying it is possible for me to message you even though you blocked me? or is your role solely nuke block?
There are a couple other quotes elsewhere but I'm lazy
- so he's either scum acting, doesn't have a full role list, or someone IS a blocker and it wasn't BH, but chez assumed it was BH because of the ##block
Also pushing towards Chezinu having a town role list are his references to a role that could see mafia communications - + Show Spoiler +
On July 20 2012 08:00 Chezinu wrote: They get their messages extremely late. The Chairmens wait for the CEO to message one of them. Then the chosen chairman copy pastes the CEO's message and includes an additional message for himself. They get long messages that take forever to get to them. If someone recieves a short message they will likely post it in the thread as WBG and Blazing has done. The faster the post it the more likely they are either town or CEO. The CEO shouldn't get any messages from his minions unless one of the minions has the ability to message people and figures out who the CEO is and copy pastes a portion of the CEO's pm to prove he is a minion. Then the CEO will send a message to for everyone to will hint and clues indicating such a person is part of the mafia team. Maybe he might mention that such and such person need to be protected or for everyone not to vote for such and such person. By now, if the mafia CEO is somewhat disciplined and smart and not impulsive, he would have a trademark signature in his message.
The goal:
Let's drive them crazy. Someone with a role that can wiretap into The System needs to get hold of a message from the CEO or the chairmans. Then you will have the trademark. Exposing this trademark to the public will force the CEO to create a new signature.. but by the time this happens he can just reiterate a previous pm message to prove who he is.. The Director of Communication seeks an employee who is capable of retrieving these messages.
Come on Company, Its Time to Take the Company Back!
On July 20 2012 15:06 Chezinu wrote: If I could read other people messages.. why would I have asked for an employee would could read other people's messages or for someone to bus me earlier in the thread? (since I'm the crazy guy, you have to look up my quotes). I'm totally bossing you arounds!
- so, if he has a list, then there's something on it that sounds like it can intercept messages
In favor of messaging powers He's claimed them. Claimed messages to ?, BH, and VE, although I don't think we have actually 100% confirmed that he sent any messages. I believe BH and VE just posted messages which Chez claimed, but there was never a situation where Chez gave information that confirmed himself as sender?
Of course, there's a chance he's got access to both powers. Either as a mafia underboss, with a messaging minion and a rolecop/town role list minion, or perhaps as a mason-type role, with those roles inside his circle? If "director of communication" is a real role name, a mason-type role would fit with that. A mason circle Chez could still be mafia or town. VE, are you voting Chez based off Foolishness/BH flips, or is this because of the chat you guys had?
On July 21 2012 01:22 Q-bert-Z wrote: Am I missing something or did Mr Murray say that he also steals the power of the person he votes for? If so, that makes him more or less a role - checker... Why not have him steal sandroba's vote, and see if he gets a messaging power?
Or does that not count as a thread action? (Which, now that I think about it, seems likely)
BM, what kind of information do you receive when you steal someone's power? How do you know what power they have?
I haven't gotten to find that out yet. I'd imagine something like this
[logout] : Bill Murray [1 NEW PM]
"OH JOY" "You now have the ability #Daykill/Execute/BangBang" "HOLY MOTHER OF AFSDAJHAKL"
I don't think he's actually claiming he got a dayvig.
Voting palmar, but a little perplexed by his claim. Closed setup on town side, so his role doesn't indicate towniness. Plus it's an odd role to choose. If it worked like copycat in PYP games, RoL died at the end of D1, so Palmar would have become Macedonia. He's not claiming that, so he apparently got to choose what role he picks up, and he chose pardoner, rather than waiting around to see other flips.
Was looking through his filter, because it seems like so much of his scumminess is coming from Foolishness. Like, before Foolishness (and BH) died, the lynch today was discussed as a BH/foolishness/zealos option mainly. So before the Foolishness flip, Palmar was scummy to lots, but as a 4th or 5th choice. Heavily, heavily tempered by the fact that 2/3 that short list is dead and flipped scum, but I just wanted to look over Palmar more to convince myself.
On July 17 2012 23:24 marvellosity wrote: Ok. Why are you voting Kurumi when he's getting nuked?
a day 1 correct lynch is great. There is no reason to risk that being fucked with. I have no idea if mafia can bus/heal/block this shot from rol or not.
I say we take what we have. If kurumi is mafia, which he most likely is, we're ahead, no matter what else happens. The lynch is our safety net, you can't fuck with the lynch.
In hindsight, now that we know Kurumi didn't die D1, maybe it would have been nice to lynch him D1 and not waste D2 like that. But at that point, Palmar was suggesting we use D1's lynch on someone we thought was going to die, in order to guarantee the kill.
Again, sounds good in hindsight. But with very little planning for mafia D1, the best thing for them after a no-lynch would be to get a lynch on someone who was already going to die. If kurumi was really mafia, he was a goner, and lynching him ensured that only one mafia died. Pushing for that doesn't feel outwardly scummy, but a lynch on Kurumi or RoL would have been mafia's best option D1.
The kurumi wagon D2 isn't important. BH was almost lynched D1, so it's reasonable to think that he would have been lynched after Kurumi.
Still finding it odd to grab that role. Palmar said he found BH towny early, and I guess there wasn't a NEED to bring it up D2 or D3 since Kurumi was going to be lynched D2 and BH got VE-lynched without full votes. But it was clear that Palmar's arguments for town-BH D1 didn't fly and town still found BH scummy.
So the result of a pardoned BH in that case would be what? Wouldn't we just lynch BH the next day? Unless Palmar could convince town that BH was town, a pardon would just negate a lynch that would happen again. No gain for town.
On July 24 2012 00:04 syllogism wrote: Of course it's important. He can't "grab" the role before the role has flipped, so he is claiming that it was a day action and he took it on day 2 to save BH.
I'm saying it's not important because it was still apparent that BH was going to get lynched. Didn't matter that Kurumi was the D2 lynch, BH almost got lynched D1, nobody had come around and said "Wow I find BH town now." So while he wouldn't have pardoned BH D2, BH was looking like one of the main D3 and beyond candidates.
Actually, has anyone been copycat/mimic before? I was thinking that you'd have to choose a role shortly after a flip. If that's the case, then Palmar (if he's truthful here) would have had to go ahead and grab pardoner for a later BH lynch. If you can choose any dead player's role at any time after their flip (so long as you haven't chosen a role yet), then yeah, the Kurumi wagon would matter because he could have held off on picking up pardoner until the lynch was actually going to occur.
On July 24 2012 08:04 gonzaw wrote: I expected someone to answer me by now :/ @Prob: Will you answer what I posted before?
*sigh*
You guys better be right, I don't have a good feeling about this
##Unvote: Zealos ##Vote: Palmar
I'm going to the gym now and I think I'll be back right before the deadline.
At the time this was written, Palmar had 17 votes. Zealos had 3. I can understand wanting to lynch someone only if you find them scum. But I can't really understand complaining that nobody will answer why Palmar might have put in effort D2 if he were scum. If you don't find him scummy or don't want to lynch him, don't.
He doesn't need extra consolidation votes, and you're miffed that nobody answered "Why would scum Palmar put in effort D2?" There are any number of reasons, but the answer to that question is pure speculation unless Palmar flips scum and you want to ask him after the game.
We've got BM claiming to control someone else's vote/power. Don't believe we've seen multiple votes off in a count, or any kind of secret second-vote/vote negation. Perhaps balanced by Palmar getting 2 pardons, but it's not exactly even.
Plus a lot of the KP roles have been weird. BH wasn't just a vigi, he was like...reverse self-conscious (that's the term, yes?). If he vigs town, he dies, so he was less a vig and more a superbusser. Foolishness had KP to kill mafia too. And you can add Kurumi's America role to the town side of that equation.
On July 20 2012 07:30 Blazinghand wrote: Just received this PM:
Hello my minion,
I need you to follow orders unlike the previous minion. You must protect Chezinu Isunizech, aka Mr. Walton, aka Power ranger, aka The Brown, aka Unizehc. If you cannot protect Chezinu, you must destroy his enemies. If you follow my orders, I can arrange protection for you.
From, The Boss Man
On July 18 2012 09:17 Chezinu wrote: VE, my first impression was to look up the OP for something I recalled. "However, there will be no word limit either. So there will be plenty of room to dictate strategy."
You see, minions can receive an enormous amounts of information. Can you find a pattern of illogical behavior among the members?
If I had minions... would I be rash and command them to do my impulsive bidding or would develop an epic long trilogy of the adventures of Chezinu Isunizehc renamed that contains complex and hard to follow strategies for my minions. I wonder what would be censored...
VE, you said that this would not take long.. maybe in terms of read all of their posts...
If I was mafia, would tell my minions to go for the no lynch and if that fails, I would tell them 3 targets that they could possibly kill. I would reiterate all the rules in the OP. To make sure everyone has read the rules. I would not take my pm's lightly. For PMs are Powerful..
I live you with food for thought and inconclusiveness in order to maintain my undercover identity...
so with regards to this, the theory is that someone else picked up on what Chez wrote and made it into a PM for BH??
BH flipped mafia. So mafia including fake PMs in their messages (whether they came from Chez or from another party, saying "Someone will be claiming messenger in thread. Confirm he can message by posting this: ") could explain the PM.
Really the only troubling PM is the one that VE got, as far as I can tell? WBG got that weird one that hasn't been identified but that chez claimed not to send, BH's flip makes his message untrustworthy, leaving us with the message Chez claimed to send D1 and the message VE received.
On July 22 2012 18:34 syllogism wrote: How is that delayed?
I can only shoot when no mafia have died for 1.5 cycles, so basically I can only start shooting night 2. Didn't bother clarifying beyond "delayed" because it's 1 shot and it went off, apologies if I worded it ambiguously.
I explained my shot because it was the natural thing to do?
The oddness of the 1.5 cycles as a condition for shooting has been discussed. But the time delay on the claim hasn't. It's just weird. Why claim delayed vig as scum, then come back after 12 hours and claim a really odd delay restriction? You can even speculate on multiple levels--does the delay show townie filling in missing information, or does it show scum receiving a message about how to fakeclaim the shot? If a boss wasn't sending messages right at the start of the cycle, but waiting for the flip to write a message, then the delay could have a scummy explanation, boss writes the message, gets it to sloosh, who then claims that specific role.
(2)
On July 22 2012 14:05 slOosh wrote: Lastly, I think that the traitorous employee should claim. As I understand it it's like a self-aware miller who wins with town but numbers count with scum. Since mafia have to kill all town they are torn having a "confirmed town" alive and wasting their 1 KP on a useless kill (doesn't count to their wincon), and have lost their means of instantly killing him, plus the possible additional benefits of seeing scum strategies and redacted knowledge through outed PMs can be huge.
At this point, foolishness had flipped, so mafia KNEW that there was a traitorous employee. However, BH had also been killed, so it's not like mafia was trying to draw out the traitor in order for for BH to pop him (BH's role PM doesn't indicate whether his kill is night-only, as far as I read it). So either this is town wanting that guy to claim and let us know what messages he received, or this is scum finding out one of his buddies is a traitor, and can't help but add thoughts on that because it's a topic of serious concern.
On July 22 2012 14:05 slOosh wrote: Lastly, I think that the traitorous employee should claim. As I understand it it's like a self-aware miller who wins with town but numbers count with scum. Since mafia have to kill all town they are torn having a "confirmed town" alive and wasting their 1 KP on a useless kill (doesn't count to their wincon), and have lost their means of instantly killing him, plus the possible additional benefits of seeing scum strategies and redacted knowledge through outed PMs can be huge.
Additional musings on the traitor: (1) Foolishness's PM said he didn't actually have any powers. Scum only has 3 minions with powers left. (2) Scum could know who the traitorous minion is, as the bosses might have been able to figure out who doesn't actually have the power they supposedly have. (3) IF you subscribe to the magical mirror theory, which I still don't like, then we may have a town traitor as well.
On July 25 2012 02:14 slOosh wrote: Anyone have thoughts on this? Only austin sort of addressed this:
On July 22 2012 14:05 slOosh wrote: Lastly, I think that the traitorous employee should claim. As I understand it it's like a self-aware miller who wins with town but numbers count with scum. Since mafia have to kill all town they are torn having a "confirmed town" alive and wasting their 1 KP on a useless kill (doesn't count to their wincon), and have lost their means of instantly killing him, plus the possible additional benefits of seeing scum strategies and redacted knowledge through outed PMs can be huge.
Additional musings on the traitor: (1) Foolishness's PM said he didn't actually have any powers. Scum only has 3 minions with powers left. (2) Scum could know who the traitorous minion is, as the bosses might have been able to figure out who doesn't actually have the power they supposedly have. (3) IF you subscribe to the magical mirror theory, which I still don't like, then we may have a town traitor as well.
3 minions?
Game starts with 6 minions /w powers
minus BH minus Palmar minus the traitor
On July 22 2012 09:12 Protactinium wrote: Be warned: one of the above minions is a traitorous employee who wants to sell you out to your fiercest competitor and doesn't actually have a power.
4 minions left, one being the traitor w/o a power. So only 3 with powers.
VE, how much of your scumread on chez rests on roles being mirrored?
I agree that it's an odd time to change behavior and stop trolling. I agree that he's not really pushing his lynches hard (Except for cheerleading the D1 BH lynch attempt).
But when Chez initially proposed mirrored roles, a lot of it was based upon RoL/Kurumi being town/mafia nukes, or town dud/mafia real nuke. + Show Spoiler +
On July 20 2012 14:16 Chezinu wrote: hmmm 3 executives that can message...3 workers in the department of communication for town.. 1 mafia nuker... 1 dud nuker town...
so.. 1 town Judge (pardoner) ... one mafia..... oh noes!!@! kurumi might not die!
but then there is the ninja mind controlling vote stealing thief...
On July 20 2012 14:18 Chezinu wrote: what if kurumi was one of us? what if kurumi was one of us?
On July 20 2012 14:44 Blazinghand wrote: Wait so did Chez message me? or was that some other guy? Sandro says it wasn't him.
Isn't it funny how the CEO has the names of the roles of the mafia and like there is possibly a townie who could have a list of them be roles? if the mirror is true.. if and only if kurumi is mafiaz. then as nuke to dud rocket... list of roles is to...
On July 21 2012 05:44 Chezinu wrote: If kurumi is innocent.. then the mirror roles could be false.. if kurumi is pardoned.. or "vetoed" then.. yeah... If mafia.. then mafia is going to die..
if kurumi is innocent:
town has 3 communicators, a nuke, a dud rocket, and a judge.
Given that, I don't know how much sandroba flipping town and Chez backing off the mirror theory gets you. The mirrored roles bit was already untrue, based on Chez's reasoning for proposing it, when Kurumi flipped town, so there was no reason for him to keep pushing it. I also didn't see him pushing it between Kurumi's flip and Sandro's flip.
- His early stuff does look like he's not around to play. - While he's defended BH and Palmar, they were on opposite sides of the mafia heirarchy, and he was finding them both town relatively early, so it's not like he's been caught defending 2 or 3 minions that all fell on one side of the tree. - He went after Foolishness with some decent content. - His vote yesterday still strikes me as off. Complaining that people won't answer your one question when there's already a majority and you've not been a driving force this game (could see high-activity Gonzaw feeling like people should answer his questions) doesn't sit well with me.
Yesterday's post right before his vote, where he complains that nobody will answer his question and he doesn't feel good about the lynch, is the scummiest part of his filter for me. Worse than the late vote and sheeping. But it's not as bad as MZ.
MZ
I'm not even looking at the Palmar crap on MZ. MZ looks bad all by himself.
D1 -
On July 17 2012 03:36 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Actually I'm playing smart and waiting until I have a solid case before I go after someone. In contrast, you have your idiotic crusade against katina and that's it. Discussion should be currently centered around Palmar for his inability/refusal to play. BH should be a secondary consideration for his random wild play. And of course I still haven't forgot chez and the smurf, I'm interested to see if they start playing as well.
This may come as a shock but it's not always a good idea to shit up the thread with random cases. My lack of a formal "case" is way better than your little spat with Katina.
When I first read this, I liked it. We had so many cases and suspicions flying around early that our D1 was massive and it's tough to pick out the good from the bad. 2/3 the thread probably got accused of being scum on D1.
MZ gives what I think is a variation on that train of thought in his response to VE - + Show Spoiler +
On July 25 2012 09:33 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: D1 the lynch should have been BH. If you go back and read the end of the day I was working very hard to try and ensure that we even had a lynch. D2 Kurumi was obviously the best option because of the Sandroba PM, I'm still astounded he flipped town. D3 Palmar was easily the best option because of the foolishness situation. Note a theme here, I fully agreed with the person who was getting lynched. The guys who was under the gun was acting scummy and I wanted them to die. It would have hurt the town and been very nonconstructive if I had pushed for rastaban say on the day we killed Palmar. It's just dumb to accuse me of not going hard after rastaban when I agree with the guy up to die. I've brought up rastaban because at some point we're going to run out of obvious lynches (since we have zealos that day hasn't arrived). My rastaban case has actually started to pick up some steam which I'm glad to see, as soon as there isn't a better obvious lynch I'll take my turn and get him killed.
I can get someone killed when I want to VE, you of all people should know this. However the time isn't right for a rastaban lynch. It would have been completely idiotic if I had tried to get him lynched in place of any of the others who have died so far, and further more I have no incentive to do so when I agree with the guy getting lynched. All the other people to die have been in my opinion, the scummiest person in the thread. The day we try and lynch someone who I don't think isn't the scummiest will be the day I jump up and start screaming bloody murder. Until then I'll wait my turn to get rastaban killed.
- No reason to push extra cases, no reason to interfere with good lynches and drive things off track.
Yet, here's MZ on D2 during the Kurumi lynch
On July 20 2012 03:55 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Everyone should be taking this time to post their various cases that they have. Since we already have our lynch for today, let's not waste it by voting and chilling. Let's still try and garner some use out of the day.
Here, MZ encourages EVERYONE to throw out "their various cases." It's not 100% contradictory to his past stances, but it doesn't mesh with them. If MZ thinks that adding cases on people other than the main lynch target(s) is a bad idea for him, then why is it a good idea for everyone to throw out every case? Maybe because it worked so well D1. Not only did we no-lynch, but there are also so many cases and suspicions D1 that it's difficult to wade through. If D2 looks the same, with everyone calling out everyone, then that's another day that will be very difficult to sort back through later on.
That's the main reason I'm finding him scummy - doesn't want to spam/derail thread with cases, asks everyone to do that D2. Little other points, some of which others have pointed out (I think?):
- Minor: MZ active N1 pushing consolidation onto Gonzaw, then pushing consolidation onto BH. Foolishness may have been CEO, but he wasn't bullshitting when saying that a couple mass switches late is a recipe for a no-lynch. MZ helped push switches, mafia wants no-lynch. This point only minor because BH flipped mafia and we aren't sure of Gonzaw's alignment. - MZ tells us he pushes his scumreads hard. He's been bringing up Rastaban over and over, but never really pushing him. Fine. But other reads have just entirely fallen off the table. D1 he found Chez scummy for trolling, mentioned Chez had trolled in past scum games, FoSed him, didn't seem fond. See:
On July 16 2012 15:49 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Either he continues to play scummy and we kill him, or he shapes up and plays nice. Obviously he could still be scum even if he shapes up but it'll be much harder for him to cause chaos if he's playing nice and we catch him later on.
Chez has continued trolling. MZ's response? Nothing. No mention of Chez. No wanting to lynch Chez. In fact,
On July 25 2012 15:23 supersoft wrote: stop. we are definetely not lynching Chezinu. wtf :D
Everyone hold your shit for a second. VE don't go all conspiracy theorist yet, that's austin's job iirc.
I propose we lynch zealos today. It's long overdue and it'll whittle down scum numbers even more.
Again: If Chezinu continues trolling, we kill him. Chezinu continues trolling. No desire to kill, no scumread, doesn't want VE's chez-is-mafia conspiracy. Also, for the record, VE, I'm worried about Chezinu as well. I'm hoping that he's serious about making sense, but even if he explains and stops trolling, I don't think I'm going to fully trust him.
On July 26 2012 00:56 rastaban wrote: Chezinu is more town than anyone else this game. How can people want to kill him when his reads have been so accurate this game?
I didn't remember him pushing many reads, so I went back and looked. You are right, he's got a lot of correct reads. As far as I can tell:
D1 he wants to kill Gonzaw (unknown) and BH
D2 his posts on Kurumi seem to indicate he's leaning town, but it's not clear. He votes for Sandroba D2, but puts him down as townie in lists at night (perhaps scum because of mirror theory, town at night because mirror theory no good with Kurumi town).
come on... you suppose to listen to me cause I'm the boss. And you wonder why you have no authority!
look.. this is how you do it. You copy the list and make the names full of color. The best method is to color each name a full color. unless you are very confused. In this case I asked you to color the green and blue ones. Let's say I asked you to color the red ones. You do something like this:
We know that so far, that list is 4 correct, 1 incorrect, 4 unknown
D3 - Votes sloosh, who he seems to find scummy throughout day, unknown. Votes palmar later, correct.
You're right, his reads have been good. Very good, and better than I was thinking. But I'm worried about some of the things he has said, and I want to know whether they are the result of a particular power(s) or not.
Okay, when I was spouting off about Kurumi I didn't listen to him telling me Sandroba was town and just "stupid." Been going back through filters. Kurumi red on both Gonzaw and MZ, pushes MZ a few times (early pushes not in spoiler), Gonzaw less so - + Show Spoiler +
On July 17 2012 23:31 Kurumi wrote: I think Meapak is scum.
- His other reads not as relevant. Scum on GGQ, was town on layabout, seems minorly scummy on Katina at the end.
WBG, before dying, had his one post of reads and a small one agreeing with Palmar - + Show Spoiler +
On July 19 2012 06:49 wherebugsgo wrote: That seems like a message Foolishness would send me. He's probably scum. The other possibility is Chezinu or someone who wants me to think Foolishness sent me that message.
As for scum given how blatant their behavior seems I think the simplest route is to kill the confirmed ones first and then the scumreads that multiple people agree upon.
Right now ignoring Zealos and Kurumi that looks like:
Foolishness GGQ Meapak Layabout
And potentially: Katina
These are among my strongest reads as I've gone back and reexamined things. I was likely wrong about both BH and Austin (or they've been given ample warning into changing their play -_-).
I personally would also consider killing BM and Qbert because they're useless, but all of the named above are likelier to flip scum IMO (katina included; I lean scum but not confident)
On July 19 2012 09:16 wherebugsgo wrote: I agree with syllo and sandro about Palmar. His play this game reminds me of Liar Game.
Also seemed to have been leaning town on Gonzaw? - + Show Spoiler +
On July 18 2012 10:49 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm not confident gonzaw is scum, but I don't have time to argue this. I have a HW deadline in 5 hours and I'm about to head out to finish it.
Since it's extended majority, voting for BH is probably not a great idea, even though I want to keep him on the table -_-
Takes 14 to lynch, yeah?
##unvote ##vote gonzaw
On July 18 2012 12:02 wherebugsgo wrote: ##unvote
##vote Blazinghand
I don't like the gonzaw lynch. Last minute switch to BH anyone?
Both had MZ scummy. Kurumi scum on Gonzaw, WBG town on Gonzaw but willing to vote him at one point due to lack of time, although unvoted for BH later. Figured it's worth raising their reads again, even though we all killed Kurumi, not just mafia, and Bugs looked so friggin' towny that I'd imagine a few mafia sent his name to Foolishness N1 to be sure they didn't accidentally kill off a scumbuddy.
Gonzaw, calm down and consolidate. Lot of day left, and if it's actually Can't Believe all over again it ends in us lynching scum.
At least some of your suspicion of Katina rests on her play in Liar Game. Do you feel that it transfers 1:1, given that Liar Game had PMs and odd lynch mechanics? I just don't know how far comparisons between the two games get you.
On July 19 2012 10:21 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: I have had my vote stolen for the entire cycle.
Also I really don't like the idea of not killing kurumi today. The last thing we need to do is give up an easy scum kill.
It doesn't matter if your vote was stolen, just vote.
Why would we give up an easy kill? It will narrow down the scum count, that's what we need to win as town. If Kurumi doesn't die people are just going to derp around and be unfocused because he IS still alive. With him dead that's one less distraction and we can focus on the other scum such as:
Mattchew Foolishness Palmar Blazinghand Syllogism Bill Murrary
- including the CEO, a minion who reported to marketing (Palmar), and a minion who reported to the chairman of the board (BH), so it's a nice variety of scum in that list.
Wants D2 thread not shit up, people staying on Kurumi, which I read townie. BH sort of trying to get a Zealos push going, Katina doesn't budge.
Chez has a decent point about why would mafia put their pants on their heads
On July 22 2012 00:47 Palmar wrote: if you can shoot tonight kill foolishness, syllo, katina, BM, zealos etc
I'll be around later
(although he also wants Foolishness shot there)
The only thing bugging me about her is Kurumi asking for her reads, and Katina responding that she has no town reads. Hopefully that isn't still the case. Post heavily edited to get question/answer
On July 21 2012 08:34 Kurumi wrote: Katina, mind listing your mafia and town reads? Im going through your filter and there's a lot of mafia lists but you never seem to call anyone town... You are trying to control the chaos in the thread, but you simply don't have the presence or authority to do so. Why not pursue it harder? Why not pursue it more gently? Do you really care?
You want my reads? Okay:
Mafia: Foolishness, Mattchew, Palmar, Blazinghand, Syllogirm, BM (as clearly stated) Those reads have no changed.
Town: I have no idea... Once I get a good town read that I'm confident in I will let you know.
I'm also more likely to compare her to LVI, since I played there and only read Liar Game. Some stupid comparisons:
In LVI, her first page of filter has 10 !s. Here it has 5, and only in two playful posts. In LVI, she deflected Bugs and I, but no OMGUS. Here, after more pressure from Mattchew, she's finding him scummy (Not conclusive of anything)
On July 24 2012 23:40 Chezinu wrote: hey everyone,
From this point on wards, I think it is in the best interest for town that I stop talking in a troll-like manner. Tomorrow (game time), I will reveal my role and provide my analysis of the players in this game. Now that we have a strong group of confirmed town, I find there is a less need to be conspicuous. My confessions of all my actions will be included.
On July 26 2012 04:31 VisceraEyes wrote: Chezinu, Lord of Communication. I'd like to welcome you, formally, to the game. I trust you've been folliwing along and have quite a lot to say about what has been happening! I have "clearly" given reasons for wanting to lynch you in spite of working closely with you in the apprehension of Blazinghand. I would very much like ypur thoughts on the matter.
Oh yeah, almost forgot about that post. Will do it later when I'm not busy. I only have time right now to right troll comments and questions as I pop in and out of thread.
Also, if the commuter role is present, that's another reason for the lack of NK last night.
(1) some form of protection (2) scum didn't send in a kill (missed it OR thought all targets sent were mafia) (3) kill sent in on a commuter who was gone that night (4) roleblock on the chairman of the board, IF that would stop the NK in this setup
One regard that I think is at the top of preserving is keeping the town as chaotic as possible. Since mafia don't know each other, there's no way to correlate things between votes or between members (at least very little obviously). At any opportunity necessary we (the mafia) need to call out anyone as soon as they make a mistake, make a bogus case or give bogus reasoning. Anything that can be nitpicked at should be nitpicked at
The chaos in the town needs to ensue for as long as possible. Right now there is no organization; just everyone is spewing out random cases against people. This cannot change
Keep the posting up. Keep the town unfocused. Don't let the big names run around freely.
One of the quotes I found scummy about MZ, on D2 when Kurumi was going to be lynched:
On July 20 2012 03:55 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Everyone should be taking this time to post their various cases that they have. Since we already have our lynch for today, let's not waste it by voting and chilling. Let's still try and garner some use out of the day.
On July 27 2012 02:34 VisceraEyes wrote: For the some reason someone types "BOOOM Headshot" like I do when I nail scum.
I don't know, that's pretty null itself...but the fact that "something big" was coming and Foolishness died does seem to indicate that scum were shooting Foolishness.
:/
I'ma digest this some more. So are you of the opinion that town doesn't have a vig then?
Knock it off Supersoft. You are not confirmed town. Nor are you confirmed scum.
I would still rather lynch MZ. He starts the game off speaking negatively towards throwing suspicion around everywhere, wants to only vote folks he wants to die and will push his cases hard. D2 he wants everyone to post their various cases while Kurumi is getting lynched, again, here it is:
On July 20 2012 03:55 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Everyone should be taking this time to post their various cases that they have. Since we already have our lynch for today, let's not waste it by voting and chilling. Let's still try and garner some use out of the day.
After saying that, MZ proceeds to not post any cases (has been on rastaban for a while, but doesn't post anything new here), despite being around and doing some minor questioning and answering.
The messages that Sloosh received point towards scum wanting to clog up the thread and create chaos. Everyone posting "their various cases" does that to a tee.
On July 27 2012 04:22 syllogism wrote: I think we should probably believe meapak and lynch sloosh, although I'm quite convinced Gonzaw is mafia as well.
we already know sloosh is scum, mole or otherwise
how is this new information?
I think he is essentially counterclaiming sloosh traitor claim, but has a posting restriction that prevents him from claiming. I can't think of any other reason.
At least you've got the right idea that sloosh is scum.
We sort of already knew that. The alternative is a townie fake claiming traitor and posting fake messages.
I will move my vote to sloosh. Either we lynch scum or we confirm him as the mole.
Other assorted crap so I don't make a bunch of little posts:
- The posts Syllogism found from Q-bert-Z certainly fit what the message's requests. - I still want to hear from Chez, both the clarity he was promising and thoughts on the claims today. If he actually has knowledge of roles, that could potentially confirm we have an alignment cop.
Eh, whether sloosh faked them or not, the messages aren't 100% reliable anyway. Foolishness KNEW that one minion was the traitor and did not have a role. Could have asked each subboss to throw in fake minion roles, see if any minions claimed those roles by their thread actions. If nothing else, he KNEW that his messages were going to be seen by someone who was playing against mafia.
On July 27 2012 07:10 rastaban wrote: If Slooshes posts are correct then it means that the mirror theory doesn't hold up. The mirror theory says Chez and Prob or VE are scum. One of the minions is either the Snoopy role or the Commuter
That leaves one role left, meaning we have at least 2 of a certain role and also as of yet our real nuke has no mafia counter part.
Commuter is active I think, I don't know what Snoopy does...any idea?
I interpreted it as something out of seeing people taking night actions, seeing what the night actions were, and seeing targets for night actions.
If it's a real thing, could have been useful to find town messengers? Use a list of targets to determine who received a message that wasn't from mafia, but it'd be difficult to make your teammates aware of your role and get information out, so that seems far fetched.
Last we knew, PMs could include names, but not alignment:
On July 06 2012 09:28 Protactinium wrote: Not 100% on this atm but currently the rule is they can't give absolute statements, just orders. i,e no 'players x y z are not mafia, get them killed,' just, 'harass player x.' If they are blatant about trying to give out teammates then they'll be censored. Given enough time executives might figure out ways to smuggle information past the censors but it won't be without risk. There may be other mechanics in place to interfere with such play if it is tried.
There are redundancy factors in place for communication once someone dies but they will be less than normal. In normal games the town wants to prioritize certain mafia to eliminate powers (especially in PYP games) or reduce kp. As eliminating mafia will not reduce kp here, the focus should be geared at disrupting communication by removing the executives.
Protact said he wasn't 100%, but "harass player x" sounds like about what that message says. Even the people it says to attack, it says "attack these 4" and not "attack these 4 players that aren't mafia." Besides, Palmar is in there so we know it's not 4 town names.
On July 27 2012 02:00 austinmcc wrote: Also, if the commuter role is present, that's another reason for the lack of NK last night.
(1) some form of protection (2) scum didn't send in a kill (missed it OR thought all targets sent were mafia) (3) kill sent in on a commuter who was gone that night (4) roleblock on the chairman of the board, IF that would stop the NK in this setup
Subtle implication that Syllo is mafia.
Austin what do you think this actually means? Syllo was shot but here you suggest a way the block would happen with him being mafia. It seems unlikely that scum would shoot their commuter unless they are on opposite sides of the hierachy which would mean mean Syllo is working for the department of marketing. It's possible but unlikely given how he has played so why post this here?
Why did you post this without explaining the implications...
THere have been a lot of instances this game where we've leapt to conclusions. There have been a lot of things that we thought we knew, but didn't (Kurumi was going to get nuked D1, Kurumi was mafia, you thinking Chez knew your role, Foolishness shot claims, mole crap, etc.).
I'm assuming (1) is the most likely, (2) maybe second-likely. But I think it's worth pointing out all the possible options. Like, I didn't even put "Syllo is scum and commuter," because IF (3) were the case, we don't know that commuter is mafia. Town could have a commuter, mafia could have the name of the role through a fake claim, and have been adding it to the list of possible roles hoping that the traitor breadcrumbs himself as a commuter and outs himself.
On July 27 2012 08:41 slOosh wrote: Coolios. Just reread my filter and think through it, we are in a great position. Hopefully this vacation isn't a janitor thing or whatever, that would be ultimate sucks. Good luck guys!
This post screams too much information. If you get janitored, I think it's still likely that you aren't the traitor and I am going to proceed based on that assumption.
Of course you are. FUCKING OF COURSE
I wouldn't worry about it anyway, they would have janitored palmar, I think.
They can't have a janitor - that would imply minions knowing who other scum are wouldn't it?
Could fire it off at random, as with stuff like BH's shot. But yeah, I think you're right here. If scum had a janitor, he would have been guessing, and I would think he'd use it on an earlier flip.
You are the bully of the office! Although you have no official titles, you like exercising power. Your fellow coworkers become terrified with your mere presence. Once per half cycle, you may attempt to boss around any employee of your choice. To use this power, you must PM me with whatever message you wish to send, along with the name of your target employee. Your target will not be informed of your identity, and is under no obligation to comply with your orders. I reserve the right to censor your message if deemed inappropriate. Feel free to clarify anything with me if you have any questions. You win with the town for some reason.
The role doesn't say one message, the role is 2 messages per cycle...
Multiple messages fits his role perfectly. Don't know if fakeclaim or outted self because of bad math.
Rasta to confirm his role (but then we lose our streak), Chez, or QbertZ.
Also, I still think the mirror rule is stupid. Really stupid and wrong. But for those that like it, even though it's wrong, if Chez is a mafia messenger then he matches up with Sandroba, and the possibility of one of the remaining mafia being one of our kingmakers is back on the table.
Rasta to confirm his role (but then we lose our streak), Chez, or QbertZ.
Also, I still think the mirror rule is stupid. Really stupid and wrong. But for those that like it, even though it's wrong, if Chez is a mafia messenger then he matches up with Sandroba, and the possibility of one of the remaining mafia being one of our kingmakers is back on the table.
I take it you have not missed the irony in you calling a theory like that stupid, dearest
Never let it be said that I don't propose stupid theories myself. Just not that one.
Wait...what? Can we get the text of the first message?
You say it fits into the context but didn't give it out before:
On July 27 2012 23:19 rastaban wrote: I will give you the second message, the recipient of the first message can reveal it if they would like but as it has nothing game relevant and was merely trolling I will ignore it:
---Message Partially Censored--- I'm lonely. Figure it out.
I don't know what it means, but really the fact that their was another message is the incriminating part. So Chez will you deny that you got two messages or will you come up with a reason for it?
Could we get the full message, given that you're a likely shot target tonight?
On July 26 2012 05:36 gonzaw wrote: Fuck it's Can't Believe all over again
Had to pull this up, ended up being too true. A lynch on you turns into a scum lynch and the game mostly wrapping up, with only one unknown scum remaining, and you, I guess, being town.
On July 27 2012 10:31 gonzaw wrote: I actually think it's something like this:
Executive:Katina Minions:QBertz Zealos
Which of your two minions would you replace with Chezinu?
Hey guys, I'll knock it off with the poor play and the games. I too, am a nosy employee. Rastaban explains the role the way mine is, I can choose one person every full cycle to snoop, and I see PMs that they sent/received. I chose different targets than Rastaban did, and have been lightly poking Rastaban and Gonzaw to make sure that I had things nailed down, because, if not, I knew the identity of the president of marketing and could just snoop him tomorrow to get more messages.
In the interest of keeping things simple and on the slim chance I could get killed tonight, I will reveal everything, and I can sort of explain everything, including the two chezinu messages, in a way that makes some sense. Gonzaw, risk.nuke, and most likely, Q-bert-Z are the remaining scumteam.
(1) austinmcc, did you breadcrumb? can you prove it? blah blah? + Show Spoiler +
I did not crumb, because I'm dumb. But my play should back up my claim.
In LV, I went conspiracy theorist and I was noob town, and survived until endgame. When I saw I had a power role, I decided I wanted to set myself up to live until endgame, because that meant more chances to get messages and hold onto them, feeling out the scum team. Marv especially can back this up, he left me alive in LV because I was not clearly scummy, but nobody cared what I had to say given the conspiracy theories. He knows I'm not an idiot though, so hopefully this makes sense - I posted conspiracy theory stuff early hoping for the same effect, to get ignored and survive til endgame. For that I'm sorry, because that decision kind of hurts town and it puts me in a mindset where I'm playing to survive and not win. I didn't contribute nearly as much as I should have, sorry guys.
I haven't been scumhunting as much as normal, because I got complacent with my role. My role scumhunts for me, so I just wasn't as engaged this game as I have been when I was vanilla.
My suspicions of Chezinu, the thing I couldn't explain earlier, should become apparent when I explain my checks.
My minor defense of Foolishness, which Marv and VE mentioned, can be explained by my checks
D1 I snooped Foolishness, trololol. Turns out snooping is a "malevolent night action" and so he was immune, otherwise this game would have gotten silly. I defended Foolishness later on because I'd seen no messages, and assumed that either (1) he would have been in a position of power or (2) his boss would have sent him a message D1 or N1
D2 I snooped supersoft. Seemed town but was making some assumptions I didn't love, wanted to make sure he wasn't scum, and he didn't seem like a NK candidate for N1, so I'd get information. No messages.
D3 I snooped Marv. Was concerned about Marv being scum, wanted to be assured that he wasn't.
D4 I snooped risk.nuke. He was flying so far under the radar, with a tiny tiny filter but not getting lumped into anyone's scum lists. I figured he might be scum, and also figured that, if he wasn't, he was going to survive a while and would be a good target to determine the alignment of. See below
My targets should (1) explain my defense of Foolishness, saw no messages to/from him; and (2) explain my wariness of Chezinu. Chezinu had those posts where he wanted someone to get into the system and find a message from the CEO and then get it to Chez so Chez could screw with mafia. When I saw the part of Foolishness's PM that read -
Any malovent night action on you fails (besides vigilante shot) and you are notified that someone attempted that action but not who.
I thought that Foolishness had informed his minions that someone used "snoop" on him, but didn't know who, and that Chez was trying to draw out the person with that power. I couldn't explain that without giving away my role, thus the suspicions without explanations
(3) What message did risk.nuke send/receive? During D4, risk.nuke either sent or received this + Show Spoiler +
lololololol
hahaha seriously this game cracks me up, I think you should know what makes it funny by now knowing all the info I gave you
lol the hosts must be laughing their asses out. I know were are very likely to lose so I don't really have much hopes, so I'm laughing too.
So, we are on the verge of losing, so I think we may need some drastic actions. And this is all what I can think of: I think you should use your Broadcaster ability today
Why? Because once sloosh flips scum, I don't really want people to believe his PMs were real, which heavily incriminates some of us when it actually doesn't (since he's not the real mole, you should know that by now....or he is and is very stupid and everything here is a giant coincidence, whatever).
I'm saying you should use your ability since I doubt there is something we can do in the thread to change the tide of things. Mostly because: -Most people think I'm scum and nobody listens to anything I say, so I can't do shit -Nobody listens to anything you say either, and you trying to do something "unexpected" will turn all eyes on to you and maybe even out you and get you lynched sooner or something.
So, I want you to use your ability to prove to people that there is a scum minion with another ability other than "Commuter" or whatever sloosh said, or at least that there is a hidden ability nobody has seen before. It may likely not work, and we may likely still all die horribly in consecutive lynches or something, but it's worth a shot. If it also confuses people it'd be great as well. Hmm, a message that's proven to come from scum but confuses people, that should be hard to make. Anyways, I'll try to come up with something, but if you don't find it acceptable (remember I suck at this kind of stuff), come up with your own message such that it follows these rules:
It shows the message was sent by scum, meaning scum have a remaining power left
It confuses people and creates more chaos
It shows sloosh's PMs are not reliable, but doesn't make it obvious that it's the purpose of the message sent
The 2nd one should be a priority. If it can confuse people, make them doubt things, make them waste time discussing it, etc it would be better than just proving it came from scum. Hell, maybe you can prove it came from someone else with its content but still creating confusion, that would be better
As the Chairman of the Board's life was fleeting away, he muttered his last words: "Et ita est .... .. nunc vobis sunt in crimen Praeses vulgaret In emendator communicationis ... ire quaerere eum"
Now the conquerors should rise, as it was destined they would. The power of the bureaucracy was meant for them, not for the common proletariat. Rise from the ashes, rise from the fields. Deliver to this world the justice it deserves
Yeah I dunno I suck at this kind of thing I also don't know if making it obvious the message is from scum would have many benefits, opposed to the benefits it could give us if people think the message is from the hosts as a clue or something, or maybe as a last will from sloosh or something to confuse them even more. Like I said I'm not good at this, so I'll leave you to think of something that may change the tide of the game (as you can see that message doesn't change the tide of the game >_> You could include it in a bigger message though, I dunno)
I also added a bit of latin that if you put on google translate incriminates Chezinu. Don't do that yourself (post the translated message), let other paranoid people (like VE) do it and accuse Chezinu later or stuff like that. If you can come up with better ways then great, but don't make it too obvious or something. Info you can use on the message: As you know, if both sloosh/MZ claimed mole, and MZ's claim is true, then sloosh has to be mafia. MZ is not my minion, and I hope this doesn't get censored....but if it does: come on guys! Could you let this little tiny detail pass your censors? We are in a tough spot here :3 So, MZ is not my minion, I'm not sloosh (yeah this is obvious whatever CENSORED or not I don't care). MZ is a mole, therefore he has to be the Chairman of the Board's minion, therefore sloosh is Chairman of the Board. I guess MZ could be real BAD cop or something and sloosh is stupid mole, meh maybe you could leave out the "Chairman of the Board" thing in the message in case we fuck up and sloosh is the real mole >_> (that would be embarrasing <_< )
You can use that to your advantage in the message as well to spread doubt. I won't tell you the name of the remaining minion but it should be pretty apparent using the info I told you before and by the request I'm doing right now.
Also, I knew none of you were the real mole No lovely minion of mine would back-stab us, I know that :3
inb4 one of you really are and I'm getting this whole thing backwards....just in case <_<
Message makes clear that most people think the sender is scum and so he can't do shit. Therefore, risk.nuke is the receiver. Also, towards the end of the message, there are 8,000 "<_<"s and ">_>"s. That's what actually gave it all away, lol. Search the TL mafia forums for that, and you'll quickly see who uses those a lot. Our buddy, who everyone thought was scum, Gonzaw.
Therefore, Gonzaw is the President of Marketing. You can back that up with his reads. He was pushing Zealos like the other scum we've flipped. He was pushing Katina, now Katina implicated. risk.nuke is one of his minions, and has the Broadcaster power. The message also shows that they wanted to use that power to (1) cause chaos and (2) cast doubt on Chezinu.
I'm assuming risk.nuke got to plant a fake PM somewhere. Look at the message. It's clear they want to throw people off of SlOosh's PMs, which were apparently real. They want to cast doubt on chezinu. Somehow, the broadcaster can send out a message, and I guess the power is to fake a message between A and B? Still not entirely sure on that, but we can flip risk.nuke to find out
This is why I didn't reveal immediately, figured I was guaranteed to survive another day, and could snoop Gonzaw and put his messages together. But we've got such a nice streak going and I shouldn't overthink this, so I'm claiming.
I think the last scum is Q-bert-Z. risk.nuke's message confirms that SlOosh's PMs were real, and that the real scum team was implicated by the messages. Q-bert-Z both called out lurkers, mentioned chaos, AND had that mole message. He is the most likely candidate.
Read this over. I would like to flip risk.nuke tomorrow. When he flips broadcaster, we can see his power. If it explains the other message Rastaban saw, then Rastaban is most likely town. If it doesn't, Rasta could be the last scum.
On July 28 2012 05:15 syllogism wrote: That "pm" makes it sound like broadcaster is an ability that just makes host post the message they want in the thread, not an ability that fakes PMs.
There's that too, and I think I remember an old game where someone was a Broadcaster and could post a message with the day post?
If Broadcaster doesn't explain the PMs, then Rastaban is lying and is the third scum, not Q-bert-Z.
On July 28 2012 05:35 syllogism wrote: Katina/Gonzaw/Q-bert-z is still possible if they knew someone would be intercept that message due to their ability. There is something off about that message.
I agree, which is why I was going to wait a day. I'm with you that it doesn't explain the extra PM, but possible explanations now are:
(1) Broadcaster somehow accounts for it (2) Rasta lying (3) There is a third town messenger and he hasn't claimed?
One way or another, all of these claims should end up outing at least 2/3 the scum team.
On July 28 2012 05:35 syllogism wrote: Katina/Gonzaw/Q-bert-z is still possible if they knew someone would be intercept that message due to their ability. There is something off about that message.
I agree, which is why I was going to wait a day. I'm with you that it doesn't explain the extra PM, but possible explanations now are:
(1) Broadcaster somehow accounts for it (2) Rasta lying (3) There is a third town messenger and he hasn't claimed?
One way or another, all of these claims should end up outing at least 2/3 the scum team.
So you do think that message to WBG was real???
Well, WBG had no reason to lie about it.
I'm not really worried about that yet. I'd rather see what Broadcaster is, or make sure Gonzaw is the Prez. of Marketing, and THEN we can see if there are still pieces missing.
On July 28 2012 06:00 austinmcc wrote: If Chezinu is scum, then responding with PS the order is backwards would be a rather odd response.
Yeah i agree, but we still end up with who is the other person with messaging powers.
Either a third who hasn't read yet (We've had a few people not say anything about all this), it's part of Broadcaster, or another option, if you want to get paranoid, the remaining minion is a mafia messenger.
We've got fake nukes, trapdoors, moles. If we're only kicking around POSSIBLE explanations, the third messenger could be mafia and not want to reveal himself because past PMs were sent to other mafia members so he can't really prove his role, then he just poked at Chez yesterday.
I'm leaving work and might not be back before the night post. Rasta, just for kicks, please snoop Gonzaw tomorrow.
I wouldn't trust any information we get out of that (potentially has the option to not send a message and look townie if he knows we are snooping him), but I'm near-certain he's the president of marketing and I want to lock him down from sending anything else out.
He WILL be able to send a message out tonight to the other minion, however.
On July 28 2012 06:11 rastaban wrote: Austin, you can message Prob and tell him who you want to snoop next cycle before it happens if you are delayed. Apparently we miss anything sent before we start snooping so that is what I do. I will take gonzaw then, feel free to take someone else in case you live through the night. I don't think either of us were on the mafia hit list, even more you since you have been suspected quite a bit.
I was already set to snoop Gonzaw since the start of the night. Dem >_>s. But on the off chance they kill one of us and flip our role, I want to make sure the other person is on him.
Even if we've got SOMETHING wrong, that message is a Gonzaw message. Under suspicion, <_<s. He's got to be marketing. I don't want him getting any messages out tomorrow that we don't see, even if this gives him a chance to send fake ones. If we both sit on him, we're guaranteed to intercept anything.
Chez, do you think there are 3 town messengers SOLELY because of that WBG message? Or do you have some other knowledge that there are actually 3 town-aligned messengers?
Chez either KNOWS there are 3 messengers because it's in his PM, or thinks there are because of N1 - sandro claimed to message someone, Chez messaged BH and BH confirmed, WBG received a message that didn't come from sandro or chez. 3 messages, 3 messengers.
Sandro flipped bossy. Chez says he's bossy. VE posted a message from Chez, Chez said some parts were missing. VE did you snip parts of that PM you posted out?. If there are parts missing, Chez is indeed bossy employee.
We still have one N1 message unexplained. What if QbertZ is a mafia messenger? He was trolling early game, so the trolly message to WBG makes sense. He was chatting with Chez a lot, emulating Chez, so a House Chezinu message makes some sense (and, if I'm marketing, I'm sending my first D1 message to Palmar, not QbertZ, so QbertZ had no mafia agenda from the higher-ups to push N1 and just trolled/confused the hell out of things).
QbertZ as messenger ALSO explains how we have 3 messages N1, but a TON of unclaimed messages since. QbertZ has been dealing with RL stuff, hasn't been around every half cycle, so wouldn't necessarily have sent pms each half cycle.
QbertZ also fits Chez receiving that "I'm lonely" message. QbertZ gone from thread, returns just to vote, hasn't read and doesn't know what's going on. Figures he'll send a message. Why not just send a dumb message to Chez. No information, no orders, can't do anything specific because you don't know what's been going on.
If this were the case, it would explain: (1) no use of broadcaster yet, Gonzaw orders risk.nuke to use his power, power maybe shows up with this daypost or has been cancelled. (2) QbertZ being mafia but also allowing for Gonzaw and risk.nuke to be mafia. (3) Chez having two messages snooped, one sent/one received. (4) The fact that both Rasta and I saw messages sent. Only marketing should be sending yesterday at this point, so we know there's another messenger floating around out there or an unexplained/accounted for power.
The mole thing REALLY makes QbertZ stand out as mafia VE.
I'm entertaining Gonz/Risk/x, where x is QbertZ, Chez, BM, Rastaban, maybe even Katina/mattchew/hiropro (iirc from my last check, huuuuuuge filter before Foolishness flips, lots of questions everywhere, then things start dying down and much more quiet. But I have a townread on him apart from that).
I absolutely don't think we should be lynching Katina tomorrow. Should start with gonzaw or risk, make sure that my information is good. If that PM is good, it's helpful for tracking down the remaining scum. If one of those two is scum, the other is, and that leaves a short list to lynch off of for the remainder. We have such a numbers advantage that we can basically list ANYONE that is scummy and win.
I really, really don't like Chez as the third option though, because my PM wanted to pin WHATEVER Broadcaster does onto Chez. If that message is for real, then Chez isn't mafia.
On July 19 2012 19:32 Bill Murray wrote: i also get to steal peoples thread actions when i take their vote mattchew and meapak didnt have any for me to use i wanted to use meapak's in case kurumi was nukin him and he was going to die with a power/use it improperly, under the assumption the 2nd nuke was real, but i guess it wasn't
yo foolishness is this anti town enough for you dawg
BM's initial explanation was NOT "day actions" or "day powers." It was specifically THREAD actions. If BM can only steal thread commands like nuke, pardon, etc., then he would not steal the power to PM.
On July 28 2012 08:02 austinmcc wrote: Make QbertZ a messenger. Have PMing people be a non-thread action, something that BM can't steal. Then it all works out.
Katina had pants on her head. At least so far, Katina /w pants on head = town.
unrelated to the game, does anyone realize thats not her
and that i posted that pic before she did
I have been assuming it was her. And no, didn't realize the order.
Out for at least a few hours. Going with Gonzaw, risk, qbertz for now, with qbert being a messenger.
Pretty sure rasta's claim is legit, pretty sure Chez town, and I guess Zealos is town? but they're options. I still have a townread on Katina.
If I die, please lynch gonzaw, rasta, or qbert tomorrow. Even if Katina is scum, finding out whether the PM I found was legit goes a long way towards nailing everything down, and killing one of them is a better way of making sure that PM was for realsies than killing her.
I guess if used early, one of us might have spoken up about seeing a PM to/from someone because of that. Other one might have counterclaimed that he'd seen it on someone else, and both of us out ourselves to get shot?
Going ahead and voting Gonzaw. Don't love leaving minions with powers up, but we can be more sure, given the writing, that the message came from Gonzaw, no matter who it went to.
If there's something wonky with the other stuff, we can figure it out once we've cut off mafia communication.
Sorry but you're caught. If you flip town, then we can all bow down before whoever crafted that fake.
Quotes from the beginning of the night are no good for you, see the start of my claim where I say I'll stop playing around, and see how I spent early night asking some questions of Rasta and then of you about your reads. Was feeling out the situation, because I felt it was very unlikely i would be NKed, so I could just snoop you D5, pick up TWO messages from day and then night, and probably make sure that I had all 3 of you nailed down.
But I tend to overthink things and make them too complicated, and didn't want to do that here. Q-bert-z's mole message is so off, and his other play fits that message as well, so there was no need to wait around and find the third scum through messages, and no need to stay hidden.
On July 29 2012 02:08 supersoft wrote: it's pretty easy. if we mislynch once, i change my list. that list strongy relys on the current flips and roleclaims. if austin lied, he moves all the way down to the bottom instantly.
Yeah I thought so after I said that, I wasn't really paying much attention >_>
I guess I'll get lynched anyways, so remember this once I flip: lynch austin After that Chezinu is most likely his scumbuddy, since I see no reason for scum austin to make that gambit unless it was to save his buddy from certain death (which was going to happen because of Chezinu's slip). The fake message tried to "incriminate" Chezinu, which is a great way for people to say "oh, this incriminates Chezinu, therefore Chezinu is town, no matter what he did before" and just drop the subject altogether.
We'll still win anyways, unless the scum is syllo or something an we were deceived since the beginning.
For fun, I'll humor you. Who in this game knows your posting best? Hiro says that post reads like you, and reads like you talking to yourself in the liar game QT. I searched for <_<s and you use them both in this game and in others.
If you happen to flip town, who knows your posting well enough to fake that?
Again, sorry for derping and confirming PM wording.
I enjoyed the game up until getting myself modkilled, perhaps found the setup a bit *too* interesting. Really appreciate being allowed to play this one, although I don't think I played particularly well and again...had to be modkilled. The last couple days really dragged on, but that's less to do with the setup and more to do with the mafia team not conceding.
I will say that town's power roles felt very strong. Basically 4 extra KP with the king lynches, nuke, and supersoft, a parity cop, and two message cops. Granted, we didn't, but it seemed like if either nosy employee had landed on Gonzaw or Sloosh early on, the game would have quickly fallen apart.
On August 01 2012 04:36 syllogism wrote: I really liked the setup after I got over the extended majority lynch and I agree that my role was overpowered, if satisfying. Might post more thoughts later when I have time.
To be honest extended majority lynch was a major oversight by us. I think we both assumed plurality but copied the OP from a game with extended majority and forgot about it/didn't notice until someone mentioned it some ways into day 1. At that point it felt too late to change. Sorry about that!
Extended majority may have been hard on town until we got more organized, but it felt like an advantage that mafia needed to have this game.
VE, I'll say that I thought you played well this game. Didn't consider checking you, and had you pegged as someone whose reads I was paying particular attention to.
I disagreed with you here
On July 27 2012 06:54 VisceraEyes wrote: I don't know where you got the idea that I'm a "town leader" Chez - anyone considered a "town leader" considers VE a joke. :/
but when you say something like that it basically becomes true. Apart from your spat with supersoft and the self-deprecating leader post, I appreciated the play.
On August 01 2012 05:25 VisceraEyes wrote: Thx austin.
I stand by my statement - supersoft summed it up nicely in his rage. The consensus is that I get lucky. It's good to know that's not unanimously considered to be the case.
Someone can claim that you were lucky in your lynch target, but that's silly. You seemed convinced that BH was mafia because of Foolishness's flip, and, frankly, more than half the game's players found him scummy (some of us were asleep by deadline D1 or would have swapped over), so it's not like you lynched randomly into the entire game.
You got some information out of Chezinu's posts, doing more than just trying to interpret him but actively going through all his posts and working through what he was saying and what it meant (Not always town, but I found it town here just like I found people doing that town in LVI). You looked townie enough that probulous made you king, he didn't just choose a person at random. You came out with your role, let everyone know why you were choosing probulous and also the implications of two kingmakers/his choice of lynch. All of that looked very townie, and all of that led directly to both (a) lynches of scum AND (b) a more organized town.
One reason game was so boring at the end was that town finally got organized. The kingmaker lynches and the information that came out of them was an important part in getting us all organized.
On August 01 2012 06:14 supersoft wrote: I also thought that BH role was bugged and he dies if he hits scum, is that correct? Was it a typo?
I figured it was correct and just gave scum the option of either trading 1 for 1 if needed, or letting BH snipe a few consensus scum players and gain town cred.
I know I would have had a hard time believing BH was a multi-shot scum vig, no matter how he played.
On August 01 2012 07:32 gonzaw wrote: Those 2 snoops are very strong though >_>
Like someone said, if they check an executive or minion-who-received-message on D1 they could out like 2-3 scum (depending on the message), and scum have almost no way to prevent that since they don't know any of the town roles in the game.
Considering how many "obvious mafia" (layabout, Palmar, BH, sloosh, etc) were around, I didn't think there's be a "snoop" or something like that around since they would have checked one of them and outed their PMs already, and not get something on N4.
I bought too hard into the "DTs check people who will be around later and you're going to want to know their alignment" mentality, so I avoided anyone I thought was going to get lynched. In hindsight, that was a particularly bad idea, because even when we had 2-3 clear candidates for a lynch I chose not to check any of them, fearing chance.
Also, lol dem <_<s. I was reasonably sure you sent that because of the sender saying everyone thought him mafia, but those faces just confirmed it. If you'd been sending messages like that all along, you were getting to freely out yourself to every minion that noticed.
Just because it came up in the ban thread, but I figured it should be put here, the PMs in this game were ... difficult not to game? I had to really hold back from posting more PM-related stuff after the PM business with rasta.
If anyone really looked at the mirror flips, town and mafia power roles that did the same thing had different names and different text. That's why I wanted Kurumi's flip, to compare to Layabout. Kurumi/Layabout had different role names and text, WBG/Palmar the same.
Besides that, every fakeclaim that we saw scum have was VT, which may have disadvantaged them a little. In effect, we couldn't be sure, but had decent support for the idea that, if any two people had the same power role name, they were both town. I figured rasta was town based on that, and that both VE/Probulous were as well. Mafia mirrors should have had different role names and text, and we had no evidence that scum had knowledge of roles outside of VT.
On August 01 2012 07:54 Probulous wrote: PM Cops are irrelevant. Think about it, the people who the PM cops checked were all playing like mafia. The PM cop is the same as any other cop in that if you are playing with clarity they shouldn't check you.
That "PM Cop" outed three scum when he caught my message. It's not "irrelevant" if he can catch more than 1 scum with a "check", or can know all about scum's strategies (even if he outs only 1 scum).
2 were caught by the snooping, Q-bert-Z was caught by his own posting. I agree that the role was strong, but we were also lucky in that I never caught a town message. Like, see rasta outing himself because of the double Chez message. Seemed like we would very well might have lynched Chez the next day, outing a nosy employee AND lynching a townie, just because of the town messaging roles. Honestly, in 8 checks we caught 1 scum message between the two of us. Had we caught a few town, especially town messages that were trying to fake mafia instructions...could have led to a couple easy mislynches and the outing of a few power roles. Just didn't play out that way.
On August 01 2012 10:14 gonzaw wrote: Also damn. I keep looking at the scum team, and if the game hadn't started yet I'd say the scum team would win
Also lol Zealos not only was "caught" yet was actually acting scummy. I can't believe how people didn't lynch him. Even I thought he was scum until like D4, how the hell did you guys figure out he was town?
Zealos didn't look lovely, but he was so entirely uninvested in the game before that message, and remained so entirely uninvested afterwards, that he didn't feel like a better lynch than other options. Plus, once mafia started flipping, they'd ALL been pushing Zealos. Made it really easy not to lynch the guy when every scum wanted him lynched.
On August 01 2012 10:37 gonzaw wrote: Couldn't you say the same thing about sloosh? I mean, his claim didn't "make sense from a scum perspective" either (was just bad), and his play wasn't that incriminating (compared to Zealos at least). Yet Zealos was never considered as lynch at all yet sloosh was always "almost confirmed scum" ever since he claimed. Of course, unless I'm missing something that made people think "Zealos is town" and "sloosh is scum" that didn't have anything to do with their "dumb claims/reactions".
At least in my mind, some major differences were that Zealos claimed VT, while slOosh claimed to have a sort of odd delay mechanic and have shot the CEO. Easier to think the disinterested guy is a VT than the vig who shot the CEO on questionable reasoning that had never been presented in thread.
Also, again, as the game wore on, people that flipped scum had pushed Zealos. Nobody had really been talking about slOosh from what I remember.
On August 01 2012 10:50 Probulous wrote: BTW I was tossing up between lynching you or layabout for my kingmaker hit. Both fo coming out of nowhere having done nothing of substance and then suddenly defending Palmar who had also done minimal work just screamed mafia to me.
Would have been interesting to see how the game played out had you gone for gonzaw.
On August 01 2012 23:44 Katina wrote: WOOOOOO!!!!! WE ARE VICTORIOUS! I WASN'T MISLYNCHED!!!
Hey good game madame. I know syllogism thought you were scum, but I think you did an okay job of establishing your innocence and a really good job of finding scum. ^^
Katina has ridiculously good scum instincts. I find it quite unfair.
Step 1: Put your pants on your head Step 2: ? Step 3: Find scum, guaranteed
If you want to go crazy with it, there might be some synergies between Broadcaster and the scum messenger role? Not entirely sure if it'd work, but there could be options like PMing ... say Chez here, when he thought there were 3 town messengers. PM him saying you're with a third party, and to watch the day message for more information, confirm the PM via day message and try to get him working on some side agenda? There have to be simpler ways to use the two together, but nothing comes to mind immediately.
Could have also used for just...general time wasting? When slOosh posted mafia PMs, people went slogging through to find anyone who'd used the term chaos. Can just mess with everyone's heads by asking mafia members to use certain words, or to disregard PMs that said to use a certain word, etc. Even if we know the broadcasts are from mafia and are misleading, SOMEONE is going to spend the time and effort to look back through all those pages of D1 and D2 trying to find information.