On July 10 2012 15:19 Ver wrote: Do whatever you want pregame but remember once the game begins the bureaucracy will strike down your spam!
Sorry, but you need to make some papers and get the signature of the majority of the players playing this game, plus all hosts/co-host with their approval of your spam policy before you are allowed to strike down spam.
After that, you need to go over to mafiascum.net and other mafia sites, get into a meeting with their administrators to determine the current spam regulations applied universally to all mafia games. After that's done, you have to meet with the administrator of TL, give him the signed paper with all the signatures from players/hosts, and get him to sign a form indicating that they allow you to strike down spam in this site. After that, you need to go back and meet all other mafia sites' administrators, give them this signature and get them to sign a new form giving you permission to enforce their new spam policy in your games.
After that's done, you need to come here again, wait 2 weeks for all proceedings to resolve, and meet with the TL administrator and get him to agree for you to use the spam policy on this particular game ("Bureaucracy Mafia"). After that's done, you need to meet in person with Foolishness and those other guys so they can agree on you enforcing the spam policy in a game that follows the Ban List. If they disagree, you need to go meet the TL administrator again and get him to overrule their disagreement so you can enforce the spam policy. If he's on vacation you need to meet with the administrators of the other mafia sites so they can overrule it; however you need to wait 1 month so they have their schedule free to do so. After this matter is resolved, then you are free to strike down spam once this game begins (following the universal rules of spam-strikedown of course)
On July 12 2012 03:17 gonzaw wrote: Considering usual smurf play these last few games he'll most likely just smurf-fail and post from his real account soon after the game starts, so we'll get to know who he is.
or you're like me and you smurf in a game only to realize no one cares what you think until you claim who you are, then you get called scum based on identity
no really
Hey now.
On July 01 2012 22:44 austinmcc wrote: NoSmurf, initially I read you as one of the more sensible and townie folks in the thread. However, this caught my eye somewhat:
On July 01 2012 10:23 NoSmurfHere wrote: You seem to sincerely believe in such terrible logic, so you're probably town. However I'm not voting BKE just because it's day 1. I don't think anything he's done or said is so far particularly scummy. At no point have I agreed with that terrible case, so why bother acknowledging that the rest of you are idiots for bandwagoning him?
On the other hand mafia lurk to shake suspicion ALL the time. mK seemingly has done exactly this, and if he's mafia certainly it's working.
So, in this case, obviously I'm far more inclined to believe that the guy who is actively trying to stop a bad lynch is town whereas the scummy lurker is not. If mK is town he has a huge incentive to address the votes on him and make a case on his scumreads rather than disappear immediately after voting. Also speculating about his status is pretty stupid when I voted for him fairly quickly after he posted.
On July 01 2012 06:40 EchelonTee wrote: Hey Adam, remember my first game? When sephirothag or whoever crucified himself for no reason? This is the MrZentor variety of it.
I do remember that game, one of my favourites. The difference between sephirotharg and casualman is that sephiroth was trying and making errors, casualman is not even trying at all, just acting obnoxiously.
Vigs, shoot him tonight. Lets not waste a lynch and a full day cycle worth of discussion on someone who is trolling us.
On July 01 2012 10:21 Mandalor wrote:
On July 01 2012 06:25 layabout wrote:
On July 01 2012 06:10 Mandalor wrote:
On July 01 2012 01:46 MajuGarzett wrote:
On July 01 2012 01:42 Mandalor wrote: ##VOTE: BKE
I expected this game to start in like a week or sth. I'll promise to catch up with the thread and be more active beginning tomorrow.
If you're not caught up why did you vote?
I had read the first ten pages and it seemed to be the best option. Haven't changed my mind now that I'vve caught up. It's day1 tho, I don't expect a 100% surefire candidate to pop up this early.
Could you maybe share some of your decision making process?
You know, so that we can see you did more than place your vote on the guy with the most votes.
sure.
On Day1, I feel like there's only two good options for town. a) kill a lurker b) kill a guy that causes trouble just hours into the game
I don't like option a). Playing as mafia is fun. You hang around in a chat channel and make your plans. You're probably more busy with the chat than writing in the thread, but still... you're less likely to lurk. If the mafia is smart, they will have a couple of lurkers, but definitely not the majority so the odds of killing a town lurker is a lot higher on day1.
BKE qualifies for option b). Whether or not he's mafia, I personally don't like people in my game that use words like "scummy" judging people's first post in the game. Noone has posted enough in this game that I could possibly have built a good enough opinion on them, but apparently he can do that. I'm not even going to address his newbie-theory.
I'm not saying I'm sure about BKE whatsoever, but he's our best option in my book.
This post stinks. You seem to be ignoring the obvious third choice for town on day 1: we lynch someone acting scummy. You're recommending we lynch BKE on the basis that you don't like people casting early judgments. This is encouraging a passive game, are you afraid of a little bit of heat?
You seem to want to punish BKE for playing badly rather than lynch him for being scum, a scum's bread-and-butter move. In addition, your vote just looks like a blatant bandwagon on the guy currently leading the vote count, you only justified it afterwards when MajuGarzett questioned you about it 5 hours later.
I think you are scum.
##Vote: Mandalor
this is a good case and these are all things I picked up on myself when I read mandalor's posts.
I am completely fine with Mandalor and mKmKmK being lynched today. Anyone else will take some serious convincing. For now I'm going to keep my vote on mK, but in the interest of consolidation and actually lynching someone I have a scumread on, if that lynch doesn't fly I'll push Mandalor with you.
Care to explain your train of thought? Over the course of 2 hours, you went from "probably town" to "completely fine with Mandalor lynch/scumread on Mandalor." Would like for you to articulate why you changed your read there.
Granted, one of your posts got ninjaed and so that contradiction wasn't there, but I was paying attention to what you said.
On June 11 2012 18:19 Palmar wrote: Supporting an RNG lynch is not a bad idea. It's a net gain for town, as long as you settle the target early enough. It will actually help a lot trying to figure out what really is going on in the game. It creates an unusual situation that most people aren't sure how to react to, and it's in an unstable environment it's easiest to catch mafia. The point is that you can't really explain that in the thread (hence why I didn't) because as soon as everyone realizes you're meant to argue about whether you actually follow through with the random lynch, instead of just executing it, everyone will start thinking about it like a normal case based on analysis, and the advantage will have been lost.
I'm hoping some of you remember this for future games, I've yet to successfully push through the idea of a RL because of it's inherent flaw that you can't explain it. It's like why arguing about LAL is dumb as shit. As soon as you argue about it, you've given people an excuse to lie. You just shut your stupid face and say that it's a 100% solid policy and liars WILL be lynched, while secretly keeping yourself in check and being ready to go against that position.
Anyway, enough about how to play mafia.
The %s may be higher here, but a random lynch still isn't anything but a discussion-generator. That game was 2 scum 1 SK 8 town, 3/11 or 27% chance to hit non-town on a random lynch. This is 9/27, 33% chance. Not higher enough to really matter.
I like the discussion of causing chaos to mess with mafia, to some extent. Just like with the Sleeper Cell games, this isn't normal mafia. Town have the numbers advantage, and, for now, are more or less on even footing information-wise. Scum don't have an advantage UNTIL they get organized. Some forms of being chaotic would be equally harmful to both factions, other forms would be more harmful to town (higher numbers).
However, I don't support trying to cause chaos, because we don't know (and can't know) when mafia will get organized. We can speculate all we want about how many cycles it could take, and how each of us would communicate with mafia underlings were we CEO (see sleeper cell...II? for message speculation), but, especially given the vague comments about censoring messages made by hosts, we just don't know whether mafia can get fully organized, or how long that would take. At some point, IF they can organize, any chaos we cause only hurts town and no longer hurts mafia. Not good.
You can. But you shouldn't. That's right, I'm claiming killable.
On July 16 2012 22:17 austinmcc wrote: [b]I like the discussion of causing chaos to mess with mafia, to some extent. ... However, I don't support trying to cause chaos
As in, QbertZ's bringing it up wasn't a bad idea, but I don't think we should try and make things chaotic.
On July 16 2012 22:30 austinmcc wrote: You can. But you shouldn't. That's right, I'm claiming killable.
On July 16 2012 22:17 austinmcc wrote: [b]I like the discussion of causing chaos to mess with mafia, to some extent. ... However, I don't support trying to cause chaos
As in, QbertZ's bringing it up wasn't a bad idea, but I don't think we should try and make things chaotic.
I imagine you have an opinion on MZ/BH that you'd like to share then if you thought that was good discussion?
I do not have an opinion worth sharing on them atm.
But I'll share something else. Roleplaying sounds like it would be fun in this game. It also sounds like it offers the ability to send extra messages or plans, intelligible only with clues from mafia communications.
Matt, your case on Katina is wrong, regardless of what alignment she is.
I posted that bit from iGrok's game. Some of the players in this game played in that game. At least one of the players here read that game closely. If a random lynch is pro-town because it generates information until you pull back the curtain, then it functions differently here, because the curtain is already pulled back (it took all of like 30 seconds to find that post). Can't assume that he's throwing out the random lynch idea for he same reason as normal.
Katina may be wrong about some bits of her case on Palmar, but I think you're also wrong about her.
Good lord you guys post too much. Read through, need to look closer at the syllo and BH stuff, but first I want to ask this:
Does anyone actually know what sandroba's power is?
On July 17 2012 06:08 sandroba wrote: I can msg people.
I want sandroba to reveal his role. He seems sure that mafia is going to kill him
On July 17 2012 06:08 sandroba wrote: Meh I think mafia is going to kill me anyway so no harm doing this.
... The repercussions of my claim is that even after mafia kills me they can't know for certain there is no other abilities like mine in the game so all their communication is no longer safe. Have fun mafia =P
so there's no harm in revealing.
1-shot? 1 message per half cycle? 1 message per cycle? Please reveal more about your actual power, sandroba, because it's not sitting well with me right now. More than anything else in the thread, I'm curious about this.
On July 18 2012 02:17 VisceraEyes wrote: I believe in sandro's catch on Kurumi. Most of us do, right? So we're operating under the assumtion that scum minion A (Kurumi) has Power A (Nuclear Missile). By my estimation, a power that directly opposes a scum minion's power would, logically, be a town power. The scum team aren't in different factions, they're one BIG faction that don't know each other. So why in the dicks would scum minion B (BH) have scum power B (Anti-Missile) when Power B directly opposes Power A? It makes much more sense to logically assume that BH is town if we're accepting via behavioral analysis that Kurumi is scum.
Am I crazy here?
RoL has also launched a nuke at Kurumi. If Nuclear Missile is mafia-only, that means 2/6 minions had the nuclear missile power (assuming the top 3 don't have powers themselves). That seems like a stretch. I find it more likely that nukes were given to both town and mafia, or only town (although mafia probably has SOME kind of extra kp, given that they only get 1 per night?).
So I think you're wrong in assuming that all nukes are mafia, although if both Kurumi and RoL flip mafia maybe so. If not all nukes are mafia, then mafia might have a minion that can block.
I have no name cache here, that's fine. But read this with an open mind. Seriously read point (1). Consider whether it makes sense.
(1) Sandroba's role is way, way, way too powerful Not a single person here knows how sandroba's power works. Mafia, town, 5th party, whatever. Nobody is curious?
Nobody is thinking, jeez, in a game where mafia cannot communicate except through 2 messages per day cycle, 2 messages per night cycle, and there are NINE of them. A game where they might lynch each other, NK each other, use powers on each other. Nobody is going, holy balls, the ability to SEND FAKE MESSAGES is an incredibly, incredibly powerful role?
Think about it. The way sandroba used it, he's a cop. You ask someone to do something, if they do, they must have assumed it was from a mafia higher-up. So if they obey, they're mafia, you got this game's equivalent of a red check. Moreover, you're a cop that cannot be affected by any kind of framing power. Normal cops can be balanced out by gfs, millers, frames. A red check from a normal cop may or may not indicate scum. Saying "Hey use these 3 phrases in your next post to identify yourself" CANNOT be balanced by any mechanic at all. If they obey a message they received, when they had no idea anyone other than mafia could send messages, they must be mafia. Name a single other explanation, because when kurumi tried to give one, it sounded dumb and everyone agreed it sounded dumb.
Moreover, he's not just a cop. He can check people with that power, AND direct their actions. Not only does he know they're red when they follow orders, he can actively direct mafia action because messages are anonymous. He gets a red check AND gets to direct the actions of a mafia member, tell them who to go after, who to defend, etc.
Oh man, austinmcc, that DOES sound pretty powerful now that I think about it. He's a supercop that can't get false checks in a game where mafia have limited communication? (2) Sandroba has played scum IN a sleeper cell game in which a powerful role fakeclaim helped win the game Well, surely he wouldn't claim such a powerful role, right? He'd wait to use it a few more times. I mean, checks AND mafia action disruption, you'd want to keep that secret. Unless, of course, you'd played in another game where a ridiculous check helped win you the game. You know, like, say, Sleeper Cell Mafia. The game where sandroba rolled mafia with Ace as cell leader and Ace claimed the following role:
On May 02 2011 02:28 Ace wrote: I'm an undercover Agent with 1 shot and get parts intercepted messages from the CL. So I have no more shots anyway and I'm pretty sure we're close to winning this especially seeing how panicked you are. If you are a townie you should be glad I chose correctly because if I missed I'd be automatically killed also. Something tells me you aren't though.
Ace skated by after claiming this, with the only person who was suspicious of his claim being another cell member. In the postgame, there was a decent bit of discussion about how town should have questioned Ace's claim given that he could (1) intercept messages and (2) shoot. Sandroba's claimed power is basically on about that level, because he's a combination cop and...disruptor? There's no name for that other role as far as I know. It's basically a townie who gets to sit in mafia QT but isn't mafia. (3) Sandroba showed balls as a sleeper agent in that same game Ace claimed to have shot GGQ N3. There was only one kill. Sandroba, as scum, claimed vet on D4 in order to account for the missing KP. So we KNOW he's got the balls to fakeclaim as scum in this style of game. We know that having those balls won him a game, as scum, in this style of game. Maybe I'm being paranoid. But maybe that role is a little overpowered to be in a balanced game. Maybe sandroba can play ballsy as scum in this sort of game. Maybe, even if the role isn't overpowered, Sandroba should be smart enough not to out himself because he caught 1/9 of the mafia team with a role that friggin' powerful. Wouldn't you keep that to yourself and catch more? Wouldn't you catch more and actively disrupt mafia communication/actions?
THAT is why I wanted Sandroba to claim. That is why I find him scummy. Get offa mah nuts, because if you actually think about his role, you should be questioning it too. Either scum have RIDICULOUSLY powerful roles to balance things out, or town simply cannot have a guy who ends up being an uncounterable cop PLUS can actively plant fake mafia communications.
On July 18 2012 04:48 syllogism wrote: It's exactly the kind of role I would expect to be in this setup. You know basically nothing about the setup other than the fact the fact town:mafia ratio is extremely abnormal and the immediate conclusion you draw is that this role is too powerful to be town? Why is your focus on the fact that mafia has limited communication instead of there being one mafia for every 2 townies? What exactly would mafia sandroba's motivation here be? Do you think he is CEO or how exactly do you think he communicated with kurumi?
If he actually communicated with kurumi, then he's either a mafia higher-up or some sort of messaging power DOES exist. But he won't tell us exactly what, despite having an incredibly powerful role and thinking he's going to die. Why, as town, if you've got such a powerful role (and are apparently known for good scumhunting) and think you will die, would you not share that information with town?
If kurumi flips red tonight, we don't actually know if he communicated or not.
Even if you think that role is in the game and isn't game-breaking, do you think that sandroba would out himself, as that role, on D1, with a single red check? Does that make sense?
On July 18 2012 04:54 rastaban wrote: But see someone has that role, Kurumi confirmed she received the PM. Mafia can't just PM whoever they want, they get it 1x a night to specific minions. So this powerful role has to exist OR he is scum bussing mafia. Either way we should kill the target (The nuke is doing that for us) and continue to evaluate him. Mafia will need to kill him if he is town, as he has incredible power. If he ends up living for a few nights then yeah lets go back to him and see if he needs lynched, but for now there is no reason to try and do anything about it.
Should he have claimed, I don't know, I think his argument that it makes mafia doubt all PMs is a legit reason to do so, more so when he is outing scum at the same time. Lets make mafia sort this out for now.
You seem to think Kurumi is actually mafia:
On July 17 2012 23:26 rastaban wrote: Don't you think though as town he would have blocked the one on RoL when he learned Kurumi was mafia?
Why are you trusting Kurumi's confirmation of the PM if you think he's mafia? (he, right?)
Bugs
On July 18 2012 04:54 wherebugsgo wrote: Why the hell would mafia need powerful roles when sandro's power can only be considered a oneshot use?
The games setup is designed so that mafia cannot explicitly identify others (no communication to higher ups as it's designed in the OP). Thus , a town role that, if used correctly, PUNISHES mafia for doing so is in line with the setup.
You can't compare it with a full fledged cop because it would only work once. Sandro's not gonna catch a scum with it tomorrow, for example.
Lastly, why do mafia need powerful roles in a setup in which they comprise half of the playerbase? They could kill themselves multiple times and the setup would still be balanced.
Why is sandro's power a oneshot use? He never said it was. If you think it's one shot because mafia will now doubt all messages, then isn't this game broken? The ONLY communication mafia have is these messages, top to bottom. If messages can no longer be trusted, mafia basically has no communication. They've always got to worry whether it's a legit message or town checking them out, and they have to just...guess as to what anonymous source it came from?
The ONLY reason Sandro can't catch someone with it tomorrow is because he claimed it after finding one single scummy player. Before he announced that, he could have caught every last scum with it. You're not looking at his power the right way, because you're looking at it only after he claimed. And even when known, it's still game-breaking.
On July 18 2012 04:59 HiroPro wrote: I can't tell if austin really believes this or not...
austin, can you give me a scum read based on behavior and not just on setup speculation.
austin actually believes this.
You want a scumread based on behavior and not just setup speculation, and you've asked me before, so I will oblige. I'm worried about GGQ
He's posted almost nothing. He's barely been involved in any topics that thread has been discussing (But austinmcc, you've been doing those same things. Yup). He, also has played in a sleeper cell game before (as scum). It's not a perfect match to this style of game, but it's the closest we have. People that played in those games before, even a long time back, are valuable and have insight we should be trusting. But does he really provide that insight? No.
On July 16 2012 19:13 Probulous wrote: So in essence I should have kept that to myself?
I find it highly unlikely that mafia will be pushing strong reads day 1 given the setup. For two reasons, one they may be pushing one of their own, two they will be held accountable. So my thinking was to out to the thread so people are aware of it. Yes mafia are too but all this does is limit their options. How exactly does this help me further my agenda if I am mafia?
My experience playing scum in two Sleeper Cell games tells me that this is the opposite of true. If you aren't burdened by knowledge of your teammates, it's much easier to come out strong on day 1.
See, this is helpful. This is probably a truthful statement. This is someone who has been in those 9 people's shoes, saying how he felt, and it's good to know that.
On July 16 2012 18:59 risk.nuke wrote: Holding people accountable to their day 1 reads is dumb. As always you will want to question people who change their reads drastically or oddly. This however completely-100%-absolutely-have-nothing-in-common-with holding people accountable for their day 1 reads.
Chaos and rockin the boat is equally dumb. I don't know to what effect scum can use their communication but it seems to be very limited. Destroying the atmosphere and towns sense of direction to slightly damage the scums abillity to communicate seems like shooting a mosquito on the foot with a bazooka.
Blazinghand is the one who's spot on.
On July 16 2012 15:32 Blazinghand wrote: @Prob: I think that's Chezinu you got quoted there.
In any case, in this setup it seems pretty straightforwards to me. Analyze like normal, hold people to their views like normal, look for weird unsubstantiated cases like normal. There's more scum and they're less organized, but I don't see why we need to do our D1 or D2 anything different than what we typically do. Just keep an eye open for people doing shit without legit town motives and you're good to go as always.
@Chezinu: Chaos bad
##vote: Chezinu
The only difference between this game and a normal game is everyone needs to scumhunt.
Wait, how is that different from a regular game again?
Just an offhand remark, a little joke, when the topic is one that he could actually contribute something useful towards.
A nothingpost upon getting called out for lurking:
On July 16 2012 19:13 Probulous wrote: So in essence I should have kept that to myself?
I find it highly unlikely that mafia will be pushing strong reads day 1 given the setup. For two reasons, one they may be pushing one of their own, two they will be held accountable. So my thinking was to out to the thread so people are aware of it. Yes mafia are too but all this does is limit their options. How exactly does this help me further my agenda if I am mafia?
My experience playing scum in two Sleeper Cell games tells me that this is the opposite of true. If you aren't burdened by knowledge of your teammates, it's much easier to come out strong on day 1.
On July 17 2012 03:09 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: so mattchew lemme get this right, I'm scummy because I "seems to be trying to look sensible and not shitstorm causing." Umm... duh so basically I'm scum because I'm playing protown? That's some pretty wicked logic there.
cause you are playing an easy to fake pro-town without actually doing anything pro-town
That's bullshit and you know it lol.
you have said the word "chaos" or talked about town stability in almost every post you have made. Did you elect yourself town peacekeeper? Because basically every one of your posts has extremely little to do with actually finding and lynching scum
Actually I'm playing smart and waiting until I have a solid case before I go after someone. In contrast, you have your idiotic crusade against katina and that's it. Discussion should be currently centered around Palmar for his inability/refusal to play. BH should be a secondary consideration for his random wild play. And of course I still haven't forgot chez and the smurf, I'm interested to see if they start playing as well.
This may come as a shock but it's not always a good idea to shit up the thread with random cases. My lack of a formal "case" is way better than your little spat with Katina.
What? Why? What would that accomplish? How would that help us find scum? Palmar does that shit all the time. It's stupid and unhelpful but arguing about it has never changed him before and it won't now.
##vote blazinghand
He comments on palmar, gives 0 reasoning why he likes BH as a candidate. Never has. Never has mentioned BH.
Layabout's first contributions were basically the same thoughts I had. Thoughts that I think everyone should have had.
On July 17 2012 06:32 layabout wrote: If sandroba can message people why did he reveal his power after outing a single player that he could have pushed without revealing his power?
On July 17 2012 07:00 layabout wrote: Sandro why did you claim that you could trick mafia into revealing themselves when you had only tricked one player?
PSA: No talking to kurumi and spamming up the thread!
What separates RoL is that...he's being nuked? Why would anyone make a case on RoL, when he's almost guaranteed to flip tonight? He's not worth looking at, considering, anything, unless he (1) posts something (hasn't) or (2) doesn't die tonight (we'll see).
I think sandro's other conduct isn't outright scummy. He's on BH for a bit during the initial flurry of discussion. He's pushing BH hard. After he catches kurumi, we see votes on kurumi. After kurumi gets a nuke sent his way, all votes leave kurumi for syllogism and BH. Sandro returns to give some minor comments on BH, but he's not pushing for BH's lynch with the same vigor as before. Why is Sandro, who was pushing BH relatively hard early, not pushing even HARDER now that people think he's confirmed town? Especially given that he finds syllo, the other top candidate, odd but doesn't want to kill him yet.
To be fair, I think sandro is fine for feeling that way about syllo. I got no problems with that argument this game, that we can leave certain players alive a few days, watch their hunting, and then reevaluate come D3-4. But I don't love that it doesn't feel like he's pushing BH quite as hard after he caught kurumi, more like he's sitting back going, "Yeah, I look so mothereffing townie right now, time to chillax."
We can. I don't want to. Syllo hasn't made up a ridiculous role (I know some people don't agree, I still see the role as ridiculous). The main reason I'm pushing Sandro is because his role is ridiculous, and when offered a chance to reveal it (maybe it turns out his role is 1-shot, then it becomes believable and doesn't cripple mafia's only source of information once he reveals), he doesn't, despite thinking he's going to get shot.
Because my read isn't based on his demeanor, his posting style, something off about his reads (something you can check on for a day or two), I don't want to leave him up.
On July 18 2012 05:47 sandroba wrote: Because right now I'm reading the thread and actually trying to figure out who has the most chance of all people I think are scum to flip scum. It is likely, since most people believe me to be near confirmed status, that my input will likely decide whoever gets lynched, so I need to think about this carefully before making my move. Before I didn't have this much influence so I could afford to be wrong and produce information by pushing someone hard. Now if I'm wrong it's likely to be way more damaging so excuse me while I weigh my options.
I will say that I like this explanation. That's a valid reason to push less hard. It doesn't sit 100% right, because you still slightly pushed BH and were asking about BH, but not pushing as hard because you're going to carry more weight is legitimate.