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Forum Index > TL Mafia
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JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 04 2012 23:13 GMT
#107
I couldn't care less how many games you've played on mafiascum. As it turns out, in newbie games on TL, D1 bandwagons have a tendency to be lethal, particularly if there's no substance to the case to defend against. As such, it's better to target someone who's being either actively or passively useless, not somebody who's at least jumping into the deep end.

In particular, compared to his play in a different game, where he seemed painfully scummy, Hopeless1der seems like he's heading for direct contribution.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 04 2012 23:14 GMT
#108
Or, of course, a read. Even a minor one, since it can at least be debunked by good play. Just avoid something that shows a vote that was never defended against.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 04 2012 23:18 GMT
#110
Oh, and bear in mind, I won't do this if a case gets made. I let people make their own counter-claim. I only stepped in because I see random D1 votes as so dangerous in our newbie games.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 04 2012 23:24 GMT
#113
I assume as long as you don't reference stuff from QTs, it's just the risk of multiple games. As you pointed out, there's a slight risk in using it for meta purposes, so it goes both ways.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 04 2012 23:29 GMT
#116
And I made a very strong read against him and another player in XIX, the reads being linked, and was promptly shot N1, after which, when I wasn't pushing at them, they ignored the attacks completely, pointed to WIFOM, and started trying to direct the town. Mislynch #2 ensued.

Hopeless's play is different enough from D1 there, where I won't be convinced he's town unless he flips, that I'm convinced he's town here.

In particular he doesn't seem scared of prolific posting in the early game.

And I prefer substantial pressure. If there's nothing to refute, there's no argument to give off an odor. And the odds of hitting a townie with random votes are way higher than the odds of hitting scum.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 04 2012 23:35 GMT
#118
Well then, consider yourself under pressure, and unconvincing, since you just basically admitted to being disinterested in making substantial cases, and said
maybe I got the scum by chance


Funny, when it's 3/13... 23% chance. That's not good odds in my book. You sound scummy.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 04 2012 23:41 GMT
#121
On July 05 2012 08:38 TMG26 wrote:
It's a 13 player game, and only 3 mobsters, so there is still a room for a litle mistake on day1

With a random vote on day 1 the probability of hitting scum is low, but missing wont be that dangerous, the question that i want to make is: With this low ratio of scum, does the nolynch becomes more or less viable?

I'm still a newbie in mafia games, thats one of the reasons of asking this questing


And sorry about my bad english, i'm not a native speaker

About what being happening here..
Lazer was not clear on what he said, Hopeless stated that, and yourHarry immidiatly voted Hopeless for that

So, in my opinion if we want to catch the scum we have to confront them, so i Hopeless did the right thing...But so did yourHarry, what i find funny was JingleHell jumping in to declare FoS on yourHarry

In my opinion Hopeless and yourHarry did almost same same thing

My main suspects right now fall to yourHarry and JingleHell, because your acusations seammed more like a counter acusation after a "scum teammate" being acused

But is all still too light, a lot of people still havent spoken


Wait, so my actual reasoning is supposed to be an OMGUS, and Harry's suggestion that 23% is gambling odds is only equally suspicious as my case?

When my case was based purely off of suspicious behavior, and my defense was based on the lack of substance, which was the grounds for my accusation? Not only does that not make any logical sense, it also feels like exactly what you just accused me of doing.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 05 2012 01:19 GMT
#134
I can't decide what to laugh at first, but at least now people are explaining votes.

If you want to see what showed me that early voting with no rationalization at all is bad, go see D1 XIX. Ridiculous mislynch, because of votes with zero substance.

I won't bother demonstrating what's the difference between my vote on Harry and his vote on Hopeless, because if enough people can't figure it out for themselves to avoid a mislynch on me, I think it'd be the preferable alternative for my sanity, and for the resulting information.

By the way, from within the same post:

BTW, I am not OMGUSing Jingle.


##Vote Jingle


It's like Harry is a stand-up comedian.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 05 2012 01:41 GMT
#137
On July 05 2012 10:34 Lazermonkey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2012 10:19 JingleHell wrote:
I can't decide what to laugh at first, but at least now people are explaining votes.

If you want to see what showed me that early voting with no rationalization at all is bad, go see D1 XIX. Ridiculous mislynch, because of votes with zero substance.

You clearly are not getting the point here. Noone has even been close to getting lynched yet.


Plurality Lynch must be completely confusing.

7. Whomever has the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched!


Unless that means something entirely different than what it says, we aren't running majority lynch.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 05 2012 02:00 GMT
#139
On July 05 2012 10:49 TMG26 wrote:
Even if it is Plurality Lynch, there's still 40 hours left

And its again funny to see that Hopeless jumped on your defence... After you had already voted harry after harry voted hopeless

In my mind, you and harry are the prime suspects..but only a few hours have passed, and i dont want to jump into bad conclusions


Hopeless is pointing to the meta, feel free to check it, unless you prefer to bandwagon on a case made out of paper mache.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 05 2012 02:11 GMT
#142
Yeah, you pretty much nailed my point, Release. I actually already explained it, but they're ignoring it and burying it with more of this nonsense, so I'm not feeling particularly inclined to get into a shouting match with them. If the town has the slightest chance in hell this game, then people will see the sense in the responses I've already made.

My light commitments and obvious easy comments are mostly because there's little to discuss without stooping to their level. If I don't play their game, and I don't want to get the bandwagon rolling violently over a towny, then the best thing to do is observe and respond, rather than letting myself get dragged into some OMGUS shouting match that only benefits scum.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 05 2012 02:13 GMT
#143
EBWOP: Did you watch the rest of XVIII after you got killed, Release? If you did, you know how much it benefits scum to get into large, drawn out, chaotic, tunnel-vision shout-fests.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 05 2012 02:29 GMT
#146
On July 05 2012 09:18 YourHarry wrote:

Here, someone may question whether my initial vote against Hopeless also makes me scummy for above reason. But as I explained, I don't particularly find him scummy and my initial attempt to incite responses from him and others did partially succeed - mostly in the forms of accusations toward me.


You didn't even begin to answer them sufficiently, all you did was repeat yourself. You want to gamble, based on all your anecdotal experience playing with completely different people. That's great and all, but I consider it scummy. Now, considering that you seem to think votes are "just pressure" or some such, if you're really town, and think you can defend yourself adequately, why are you so concerned by my vote?

Unless there's something to what I said, which you didn't seem to acknowledge, as you and lazer have made it into the basis of a "case" against me, then you shouldn't be bothered in the slightest. And if you do admit that there's something to what I said, you probably should have unvoted Hopeless instead of trying to start attacking me because of "just pressure". That would make sense, right?
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 05 2012 02:30 GMT
#147
On July 05 2012 11:29 YourHarry wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2012 11:13 JingleHell wrote:
EBWOP: Did you watch the rest of XVIII after you got killed, Release? If you did, you know how much it benefits scum to get into large, drawn out, chaotic, tunnel-vision shout-fests.


What we want is a substantial discussion. But in order to get there, we have to start somewhere. Some random votes or some FOS on evidence that may seem trivial at first allows us to start up such discussions. Personally, I like to apply pressure - it usually works well for me in the past.

And this is why I am questioning you now. You can answer my questions, in a logical manner. At this time, the only reason I am voting you is because I cannot understand the basis for your thinking that I am scum. While townies also do make mistakes during lynches and can sometimes be stubborn at times, in average townies tend to be more logical.



Damn it, should have refreshed. I've already outlined my logic. See my previous post, then decide if you really want to discuss logic, when it's very much against you.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 05 2012 02:41 GMT
#150
So a me too post that contributes nothing while taking me out of context is supposed to make me nervous? Yawn.

The day1 voting reference was talking about people bandwagoning onto any case built on nothing, as I actually discussed. Which you completely ignored. It's like you dug through 20% of my filter and ignored all the inconvenient parts. You sound like Lazer's pet parrot.

Like I said, if people D1 lynch me based off bad jokes like you and lazer's posts, the town is doomed anyways.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 05 2012 03:03 GMT
#154
On July 05 2012 11:55 YourHarry wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2012 11:29 JingleHell wrote:
On July 05 2012 09:18 YourHarry wrote:

Here, someone may question whether my initial vote against Hopeless also makes me scummy for above reason. But as I explained, I don't particularly find him scummy and my initial attempt to incite responses from him and others did partially succeed - mostly in the forms of accusations toward me.


You didn't even begin to answer them sufficiently, all you did was repeat yourself. You want to gamble, based on all your anecdotal experience playing with completely different people. That's great and all, but I consider it scummy. Now, considering that you seem to think votes are "just pressure" or some such, if you're really town, and think you can defend yourself adequately, why are you so concerned by my vote?

Unless there's something to what I said, which you didn't seem to acknowledge, as you and lazer have made it into the basis of a "case" against me, then you shouldn't be bothered in the slightest. And if you do admit that there's something to what I said, you probably should have unvoted Hopeless instead of trying to start attacking me because of "just pressure". That would make sense, right?


I never said I wanted to gamble. I said in the worst case, IF my voting based on less than substantial evidence actually DOES leads to a lynch, it may still be not the worst thing in the world because there is some chance that I might have picked the scum. It was a supporting evidence to my argument why it is OK to random vote in the beginning of day 1 (in fact, I think we SHOULD start voting light in the beginning, just to start reasonable discussion. Again, I have never advocated random voting.

And even if this is a newbie game, people can read and discriminate bandwagon based on random vote vs. a case based on substantial evidence. You are saying that you experienced otherwise. If true, I would say that it was an exception rather than the norm. Ultimately, there is not much point in playing mafia if people you are playing with are incapable making such discrimination.

I am not bothered, per se. I wanted you to explain why you think I am scum because your response did not make much sense to me. That said, beside what seems to be unreasonable suspicion against me, I do not get a scum vibe from you.

##Unvote


Fair enough. May have just been we both didn't quite grasp each other's meanings quite as well as we thought we did. Now that you put it in those words, it actually seems much more logical.

We're probably both a bit guilty of letting ourselves get expectations based on a combination of WIFOM and what we've seen.

As for the bit I've bolded, well, we don't always get to pick the people we play with, or their thought processes. Although I think for the most part, people are demonstrating a flaw of "vote for discussion". If the lurkers end up being town, you may well end up with a light vote on someone giving scum room to make something resembling a case from small fractions of a filter.

##Unvote
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 05 2012 03:04 GMT
#155
On July 05 2012 12:01 YourHarry wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2012 11:29 JingleHell wrote:
. And if you do admit that there's something to what I said, you probably should have unvoted Hopeless instead of trying to start attacking me because of "just pressure". That would make sense, right?


I realized I didn't answer this question.

1. I vote lightly in the beginning of the game, unless a player is close to lynch. With 13 players, it requires 7 to lynch. Even with lazer's vote, which came after mine, you had total of 2 votes.



FYI, this is why you shouldn't expect everything to be the same here as at mafiascum. Not all TL games use majority voting for lynch. This game is plurality. Highest vote count gets lynched.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 05 2012 14:08 GMT
#177
I do wish we could stop looking at Lazer's first post as "contradictory". Actually, for that matter, I wish we would leave alone all the initial burst of posting, the entire purpose is to get people talking, which was accomplished. Frankly, I don't think Lazer's first post felt scummy, because while it was only very basic, it was an effort to do the same thing I accomplished by bringing up sex toys. I've just discovered that something meaningless works better.

Instead of cluttering things up, I'll just say that Bass and Lazer's analysis on TMG sounds good, and I'll be interested in seeing what he has to say.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 05 2012 15:02 GMT
#181
On July 06 2012 00:00 Release wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2012 23:08 JingleHell wrote:
I do wish we could stop looking at Lazer's first post as "contradictory". Actually, for that matter, I wish we would leave alone all the initial burst of posting, the entire purpose is to get people talking, which was accomplished. Frankly, I don't think Lazer's first post felt scummy, because while it was only very basic, it was an effort to do the same thing I accomplished by bringing up sex toys. I've just discovered that something meaningless works better.

Instead of cluttering things up, I'll just say that Bass and Lazer's analysis on TMG sounds good, and I'll be interested in seeing what he has to say.

This is kind of interesting

You defend Lazer and try to downplay the importance of first posts (despite Lazer calling his own post bad).

Absolutely not. If his post caught traction, we would waste lots of time. Your post did catch traction, but we hardly wasted any significant amount of time. Something meaningless works better than what he did because we know it's not serious. You know it, i know it, he knows it, but he chose to choose something "significant."

TMG looks rather shit, but if his english actually sucks, then we have a serious problem.

Lurkers speak up now. I will lynch you if Lazer is not a serious contender.


How is that a defense? It's my own read on it. I think it was a relatively useless post, which I've never hidden, but I don't see trouble in motive, just implementation. Same thing you're saying, less effort to saying it.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
July 06 2012 01:02 GMT
#223
On July 06 2012 08:49 Mackin wrote:
Oh and I might as well put my thoughts on Jingle since I won't be back for hours... Jingle looks like the type of Mafia player who is so good they cruise along for days without people realising he's Mafia (when he is playing as it). I'm totally not saying he is scum, I honestly just can't get a good read from checking through his posts so far. Everyone else I'm meeeh on because I'll fall asleep on the keyboard if I read for much longer


Honestly, while me saying this won't be convincing, especially because of WIFOM, I'm much more careful when I'm playing scum. I need to work on consistency, really.

Sorry I've been away, I randomly get busy with my three year old son, TKD, or books I suddenly decide to re-read. Or the tech board.

Uhm, right now, I'm going to say Jiexian doesn't look scummy based on the meta, in XVIII when he said good night in the thread, he generally used it as an excuse to get out of the thread and would stay in the QT for quite a while chatting. His "oh yeah" type posts after saying good night earlier suggest less paranoia, so based purely on meta, I'm guessing townie at this point, but the statistical sampling IS kind of small.
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