EPTAnd thanks wbg for hosting all these, you're awesome!
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And thanks wbg for hosting all these, you're awesome! | ||
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On June 20 2012 12:36 Probulous wrote: /in. Replacement is for whimps. Bugs to the rescue! Snarfie mac snarfs, I expect us to finally be townies together, and I expect that luck number 7 will be my first win. I am setting up preparations for the victory celebration. Humming this is just so much fun This is C9++ setup no? Haha sounds good man, love the song too :D. Let's crush some scum! | ||
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On June 21 2012 02:11 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm going to continue accepting signups for 24 hours, and then I'll take 13 players randomly out of the signup pool. The remaining will be made replacements. The game will then start at 22:00 GMT (+00:00) tomorrow (29 hours from now, roughly) If you end up a replacement and don't want to be, make sure you let me know. If I get drawn as a replacement and you still need a cohost, I'd rather do that  . Just let me know! | ||
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On June 21 2012 04:48 wherebugsgo wrote: I exit class at 19:30 GMT (+00:00) so when I enter the thread then I'll assign roles and send PMs. f5f5f5f5f5f5 | ||
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Edit: Screw it! I'm gonna go play soccer! | ||
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Let's lynch Probulous so that we immediately know which team is going to lose, then whoever is on that team can just forfeit and we all save a ton of time! ##Vote Probulous! | ||
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On June 22 2012 07:58 VisceraEyes wrote: I prefer to have a reason for my policy lynches...such as lurking or lying. However even then, I have to have a lack of scum candidates before I'll even consider it. Snarfs......that's ingenious. But if he's town, I'd wouldn't want to forfeit because I want to try and give the poor guy a win. Therefor, I'd rather wait to see if I think he's scum first. Ahh right, pity. I forgot about that human emotion. I suppose I can give some time to be awake... ##Unvote | ||
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On June 22 2012 07:22 Mattchew wrote: I want MrZentor dead. Care to explain this statement, good sir? | ||
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Oh scratch this, I see it was just in response to MrZentor anticipating you coming in here and wanting him dead  | ||
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On June 22 2012 08:25 slOosh wrote: Could you guys please cut back on the chatter / one liners? It may be harmless now but later on its really going to hamper thread legibility. I think millers should auto claim (cf. WBG's Emergency Mini Mafia) I think masons should auto claim (cf. WBG's 1st C9++) I didn't like Zentor's play (cf. Hesmyrr's SoaF) but I don't know how he currently is so I'll leave it at that. I think Snarfs is suspicious for taking prplhz too seriously. Did you not find the tone of this post very serious: On June 22 2012 07:41 prplhz wrote: Okay whatever the fuck. I joined this game because I thought zentor had outed by meh. zentor is the default lynch for today because he's an unpleasant person just to have around. In case we don't find anything better then he should die just because of how destructive he is when he's town. I played with it once and I don't want to play with it again. ##Vote: MrZentor ? | ||
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On June 22 2012 08:41 Zephirdd wrote: This is a semi-closed setup. If there are 13 players, it's possible that 12 are medics and 1 is a scum. Of course that's retarded as fuck, but nothing is concrete and we shouldn't think "but it's not common to 2 of X" exist ever. at all. In fact, we can't even confirm the existence of a SK until after the night phase. I'm not sure about Millers instaclaiming. While it clears path for cops(as it's pretty obvious that they will show red), it also reduces the number of possible blues, making it easier for scum. At least what I understood from the setup is that Millers can't be blues. If anything, Millers should be breadcrumbing and claiming in case a cop calls them guilty. For all other purposes, they should be *Vanilla*(unclaimed, aka. possible blue) to make it harder for mafia to shoot into blues. I find this post entirely underwhelming zephir. You have basically reiterated what Probulous and slOosh already pointed out, then proceed to suggest something completely asinine (millers breadcrumbing). Do you have nothing else in the thread to comment on? | ||
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I'm actually interested in hearing marv explain exactly what his little shitstorm has revealed: On June 22 2012 10:24 marvellosity wrote: Depends what you classify as a mistake, really. I'm not really unhappy with the conversation it's caused. I'll call it a mistake if I get lynched, which shouldn't happen Apparently it's given him some useful information and I wouldn't mind hearing what exactly he thinks that is. For now, I'll reserve judgement. As for the question asked of marv itself, I'm not entirely sure I understood the purpose. Mattchew, you claim that you had hoped that marv would write down some things that he does as mafia so that you can hold him accountable, yet it just appears as though the most likely thing that will happen is, if marv is scum, he will become more cognisant of his flaws as mafia and be more likely to attempt to avoid them. It seems like you didn't fully think that question through. Just trying to fit in by posting stuff? slOosh, I'm not sure how you think me pointing out people not contributing to finding scum (i.e. doing scummy things), is, in itself, not contributing. zephir still hasn't commented on anything in the thread of importance and I may continue pestering him until he does. zephirdd: Let's just drop the "optimal play" argument until postgame and maybe reach a gentleman's agreement that for this game millers must claim by the 24 hour mark of day 1. We have seen this work in the past and this absolutely prevents mafia from trying to claim that a red check is due to them being a miller later on. As far as blue-sniping being a problem: Check out the last wbg mini. VE was a claimed miller and he played so damn townie that the scum team I was on had to shoot him over attempting a blue snipe. Moral: If you're a miller, claim then play a damn good town game. Now, thoughts on scum? | ||
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On June 22 2012 20:39 Shraft wrote: I'm not fine with lynching marvellosity at the moment. From what I gather, he is a good player and the case against him consists mainly of meta and him not responsing straight to Mattchew's question. I agree that it's a bit scummy, but not enough to warrant lynching a good player. I'd rather lynch someone like rastaban: His post a huge ball of fluff. The miller issue has already been argued to death, and everyone except Zephirdd agrees that millers should claim during D1. The second section consists of him arguing that it's dumb to tunnel players (marv in particular). In the end of it he says "Remember we have 48 hours, half that time hasn't even passed yet so I don't like the band wagoning on Marv so quickly." which initially makes him appear pro-town, but in reality it's just bullshit. What do you mean with the band-wagoning on marv going quickly? He just had 3 votes on him by the time you were writing this (2 now) and the only guys who seems very intent on lynching him is VE and Probulous (risk's vote looked more like a pressure vote). I mainly see scum posting unnecessary advice like this where they encourage everyone to be calm and collected when voting and not to rush things, especially when there isn't even any real bandwagoning going on. I agree, this post is very scummy. Also notice how the general feeling of the second paragraph is that we should back off marv a bit so that we can get some better reads and not waste the entire 48 hours, but then the third paragraph is him coming right back to marv and pushing him? Now, granted he does appear to be trying to ask more "nicely", but why not try focusing on someone else if you feel too much time is being wasted on marv? Pre-Edit: Noticed rastaban has posted a "case" on risk.nuke after slOosh also commented on his post. I really don't like rastaban's case as it is quite exaggerated. It feels to me as it was a quick case he made as he noticed he was getting flak for not commenting on anyone besides marv. risk.nuke's actions have been quite clear as marv and shraft explained here: [click] On June 22 2012 20:43 Shraft wrote: EBWOP: @Snarfs What do you mean On June 22 2012 20:44 marvellosity wrote: Well, in WoF he self-voted at least twice and basically actively tried to get himself lynched as a townie. From there the only way is up. Pretty much this. Unfortunately, being mafia in the last game I had a bit of a biased perspective of Zentor and naturally couldn't help but try to justify his actions from a town point of view. I didn't like how Artanis's reasoning for thinking he was town was that he wasn't trying to act townie (basically implying that all scum try to blend in) since if Zentor knows that, he can just act like he doesn't give a crap as scum. Unfortunately, I think he does know this and probably plays very similar as both town and scum because of it. I'd be absolutely okay with Zentor lynch, as I'm starting to see prplhz's point about him being perpetually null. He'll probably refuse to show any analysis unless absolutely pushed to do it and I'm pretty certain scum won't kill him for us. I don't think we should lynch marv today. He's been attacked the entire day and hasn't had a chance to do anything but react to other people's pressure. People I'd be fine lynching today, at this point: rastaban, MrZentor. I think rastaban is more likely scum so that's where my vote is going. ##Vote rastaban Why MrZentor and not risk.nuke given they both have a similar playstyle? Because, MrZentor has shown in the past, that as town he is capable of actually making towny posts, yet refused to do so his last town game which looked very similar to his most recent scum game: [towny post] risk.nuke is risk.nuke. Also, I'm still waiting for Mattchew to come back and explain this: On June 22 2012 15:23 Snarfs wrote: Mattchew, you claim that you had hoped that marv would write down some things that he does as mafia so that you can hold him accountable, yet it just appears as though the most likely thing that will happen is, if marv is scum, he will become more cognisant of his flaws as mafia and be more likely to attempt to avoid them. It seems like you didn't fully think that question through. | ||
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On June 23 2012 03:08 rastaban wrote: Wow, really surprised no one sees the vote switching without any reason at all not scummy. My case is misconstrued as "risk.nuke has not yet posted anything of value." That would be a case against Also I never saw Sloosh's post as it took me far longer than 30 minutes to work up a case against risk. You know why ,because I don't throw accusations around wildly until I have convinced myself. Last game as a doctor I had no gun and so I had to mafia reads and a town read but since it was my first game in a year and I was afraid that without a gun if I pushed too hard they would want me to shoot and out my role. Well no one seemed to care about my cases but me but in the end I was correct. Day 1 of Bang Bang I posted this: "Meapak_Ziphh, your filter looked really bad last night tons of filler and no posts contributing to discussion, but you seem to be posting more like your normal self today. Mind explaining what was going on?" I actually had an entire case typed up like I just did for risk and yet I decided to go easy and let him slide, well guess what he was GF. If I had pushed for him like I thought I should have day 1 we might have outed GF immediately. This game I am trying something different since I don't worry about having a gun, I am going to push my scum reads and try and save my town reads. If I get lynched for that, at least town gets a trail votes to follow that led up to it. Sorry but this is so similar to bang bang's Gonzaw fiasco where everyone clamored about him being red while I thought the case against him was awful, he gets shot flips blue and since it was almost all townies pushing the lynch we started the next day clueless as to where to begin which is why I had to post the Cephiro case linked above to begin with. So yeah, I stand by thinking risk is our best candidate and want him lynched. I am putting forward someone who is actually scummy instead of the marv case where half of it is based on his reaction to a leading question. Why risk.nuke and not MrZentor? Can you demonstrate the differences you see which makes risk.nuke the more likely scum, in your opinion? Because I feel they have played a similar game up until now. | ||
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On June 23 2012 03:47 rastaban wrote: When I review MrZentor I see someone who hasn't contributed much, which, while scummy, isn't enough to lynch yet in my opinion.,Especially when he commits to delivering something tomorrow. I have seen players like Foolishness say the same thing so I am inclined to give him till tomorrow before I make my Judgment on him. I feel like Nuke hasn't just been a null, like MrZentor, by not contributing, but that his actions further scum agendas. There are legitimate reasons a town player may not contribute day 1, but I can't find legitimate town reasons for Risks actions. His "lol, ok #1 scum response ##Vote: marvellosity" Seems like such a cop out to get a vote on marv, instead of finding for a reason himself or even investigating it. It is the combination of not contributing but still trying to push a lynch that I find very questionable and seperated him from MrZ. What does town gain by him voting Klaust later, but not mentioning why he is doing it? The huge time gap, is so strange as well. I can see not being caught up and posting a quick one liner, but to be aware enough that one of the players still needs to post, to take your vote off someone you said was scummy, and yet not take even a moment to say something seems strange to me. I would like to hear from him on these actions and why he did it, maybe I am missing something but I feel that his actions make him extremely suspicious. This honestly seems like standard risk.nuke play. I wouldn't call it a scum tell to come in and vote with no or little reasoning - it draws way too much attention. On the flip side though, it is that type of behaviour which scum often attempt to pick up on and make a case out of. Hence why I, and a couple others, find your case scummy. | ||
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On June 23 2012 06:00 slOosh wrote: No, that's not quite it. Something about his approach seems off. I'll clarify after giving people some opportunity to contribute on this point. Aside from that, compare his filter to mine, taking note of timestamps. Notice something? Where exactly are you going with this, slOosh? If you could be more clear I could address your concerns. | ||
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On June 23 2012 06:11 slOosh wrote: Oh hey Snarfs, you are here! Could you explain to me why rastaban is specifically scummy rather than a poor town player? I'm actually still trying to figure out if he's just a poor town player. Hence my engagement with him in dialogue. My thoughts so far on his opening post and his case are here: On June 23 2012 02:36 Snarfs wrote: Also notice how the general feeling of the second paragraph is that we should back off marv a bit so that we can get some better reads and not waste the entire 48 hours, but then the third paragraph is him coming right back to marv and pushing him? Now, granted he does appear to be trying to ask more "nicely", but why not try focusing on someone else if you feel too much time is being wasted on marv? Pre-Edit: Noticed rastaban has posted a "case" on risk.nuke after slOosh also commented on his post. I really don't like rastaban's case as it is quite exaggerated. It feels to me as it was a quick case he made as he noticed he was getting flak for not commenting on anyone besides marv. risk.nuke's actions have been quite clear as marv and shraft explained here: [click] On June 23 2012 06:03 Snarfs wrote: This honestly seems like standard risk.nuke play. I wouldn't call it a scum tell to come in and vote with no or little reasoning - it draws way too much attention. On the flip side though, it is that type of behaviour which scum often attempt to pick up on and make a case out of. Hence why I, and a couple others, find your case scummy. | ||
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On June 23 2012 07:05 slOosh wrote: Hrrmph. Alright I'll just lay out my suspicions. I wanted to hit two birds with one stone by getting reads on other people via their opinions on the matter (since I have too many null reads). Dear townspeople: step it up. If you are blue then scum know it and will snipe you, and we think you are scum and mislynch you. That's the only explanation I can think of at the appalling lack of effort by most of town right now. Anyway, here are my Snarf This is a terrible reason not to lynch someone. You don't lynch someone only if there is a scummier candidate or if he looks town. Snarf's reasoning why we shouldn't lynch marv is that he has been busy defending himself. He didn't say "there isn't enough here to lynch marv" - he said "I don't think we should lynch marv today", and this is before even the D1 halfway mark. The reason and the conclusion does not match. And when things like that don't match it indicates anti-town agenda. I guess you're right. I should have said that I don't think marv should be the lynch currently as he hasn't had a chance to do anything but react to other people's pressure. People can react similarly to being constantly grilled whether they're town or scum and I want to give marv an opportunity to post where he isn't under constant pressure. Snarfs fricken doctored his own quotes in the post above me. The heck make sure you see this. I cut out the parts of my quotes I thought were irrelevant... The part you just quoted does not show any of my reasoning and you asked for my reasoning. Please don't misrepresent me like this. He isn't considering that rastaban could be bad town or scum - he makes it very clear that he originally thought he was scum, and now that I've called him out on why, he backtracks and says he is debating, when it is clear that his words say otherwise. Again, a mismatch of words and actions. Where have I said that rastaban is most certainly scum? I said that he has made some scummy posts and that he was my strongest scum read. Then I proceeded to vote him and question how he came up with the posts that he did in order to determine if he came up with them from a town point of view or a scum mindset. I still have plenty of time to figure out if he's scum and I'm not afraid to change my vote if I change my mind and decide that someone else is more likely scum than rastaban. He says here he will reserve judgement. However, this post precedes the quote that I used in point one. Again, his actions and words misalign. He reserves judgement on the basis of he wants to hear what marv's reads / conclusions from the scrap he had were. That's fine. Yet when he says we shouldn't lynch marv, it isn't because marv's findings were legit / useful. It's because he has been "under attack", and portrays marv as a victim. Contradictions. I'm still not sure what to make sure of the whole marv / VE interaction and imo they could both very well be town going at each other. Neither seems afraid to speak their mind or be the centre of controversy, which is why I suggested giving marv some breathing room. In case you missed it, marv actually rescinded his comment about gaining a bunch of useful information from the interaction. He said that if he could go back he actually would have just answered the question promptly from the beginning. On top of that there's some blatant plagiarism, which is a cheap way to look like you are contributing without actually doing so. Blatant plagiarism is a bit of a stretch, slOosh. I went through the thread this morning and as I read posts I copied down my thoughts into a separate window. When I saw that you pointed out something similar, my first instinct wasn't to go back and erase what I'd already written. | ||
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On June 23 2012 08:17 marvellosity wrote: alright, but if we put me aside for a moment would you rather have risk or zentor with you day 2 to smoke out scum? I think risk.nuke's more likely to get passionate when he thinks he's caught a scum. Based on Zentor's recent play, he is more likely to just post filters and not actually tell us he thinks that person is scum. | ||
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On June 23 2012 08:42 VisceraEyes wrote: Sum of All Fears Mafia He's clearly capable, but he's just not. It could be scummy, but with everyone calling for his head, if he's town I can't fault him for not wanting to post in that kind of environment can you? Risk.Nuke I'm basing on my interactions with him in IRC Mafia and one of my first games back here, Election Mafia. Immediately I thought he was scum because of how he was pushing his reads, but he was PUSHING HIS READS ya know? Hard, too...like, scummy hard is what I thought, but I was wrong. Wow, I've actually never seen risk.nuke come out that strong in recent games. I'd be interested in hearing him explain why that is. | ||
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On June 23 2012 14:37 slOosh wrote: It's like he wants to be lynched or something ... ##Unvote: Snarfs ##Vote: MrZentor Snarfs, I don't see how you can deem that the bolded strikethrough as irrelevant when referring to your thoughts on rastaban. How is it irrelevant? Because without the full context it doesn't make sense? I was just trying to condense my quotes so that I didn't have a giant wall of text.... I don't really see how you're trying to make a case out of this. On June 24 2012 00:53 slOosh wrote: This lynch feels ... wrong. MrZentor, I need your full thoughts on rastaban and Snarfs. I'm having suspicions that you are a foolish town player and as much as I would like to lynch you for poor, poor play, we don't lynch bad players, we lynch scum. So quickly, your thoughts on rastaban and Snarfs. And also Probulous. If you put in effort I'll help take the lynch off you. Snarfs I'm still waiting; just because the bandwagon on MrZentor is rolling doesn't mean we all take a reprieve. For God's sake, I can't even take a Friday night off? You're just going out of your way to make me look bad! Hmm RE: MrZentor lynch, I get what slOosh is saying about it feeling wrong. Something seems off about prplhz and how he sort of spearheaded this lynch by first starting with a vote on MrZentor and then his case just kept getting stronger and stronger. Normally when you're hunting scum you: 1) Find evidence that someone might be scum 2) Vote said person 3) If you're really sure, try to convince others that he's scum However, what I'm seeing here from prplhz is: 1) Vote said person 2) Try to convince others to vote said person 3) Find evidence that he might be scum I would appreciate some others looking over prplhz again and telling me what they think. | ||
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In the meantime though, like VE, I'll be around for the next hour or so so if anyone has any questions feel free to ask. | ||
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I actually like prplhz's case on zephirdd and I'm having a hard time justifying his response from a town point of view because of how purposefully vague it appears to be: On June 24 2012 05:48 Zephirdd wrote: Maybe I should have explained it better. I said it was "the most glaring scum tell" because there wasn't anything else at the time. In the same post, I say that it's probably just a bad case. From what I've read, he is looking similar to his BangBang2 meta. similar. First off, zephir appears to be saying that he is reading rasta as town. However, the italicized "similar" indicates to me that he is not committing to this stance at that point in time. It shows a person who wants to be able to backtrack on their words later on so that they can claim that they never felt one way or another about their reads. A town player should have no worries saying that they have a town read on someone if they truly do, but zephir is trying to cover his tracks. Notice how this is a theme in his entire response to people calling him out: What do you expect me to do? Push for a no-lynch? That's essentially what I would do at this point. I disagree with a rastaban lynch right now. I agree with a MrZentor lynch right now. I disagree with both marv or VE lynch right now, but I will come back to this later. The problem about their lynch is that one is connected to another, but if one flips town then there is nothing to back up for the other lynch. tbh, a vigilante could use a shot on one of them(here vigis in this setup?) [--snip--] Again, he responds in a manner that never actually reveals his opinions on people.
Even in his recent posts, it appears that he believes marv and VE are a scum team, but rather than actually attempting to prove that they are scum by finding real evidence, he makes crazy guesses which seem downright silly (as in, what information can be gathered from positing such wild ideas?) and doesn't actually show any commitment to pushing either marv or VE: On June 25 2012 08:49 Zephirdd wrote: That's not the thing. There is Probulous, Mattchew, prplhz, Snarfs, you, sloosh(...) who would be viable night shot targets. Why would they pick VE out of them all, considering most of his actions day 1 was to fight you and that's it? When there are so many targets out there, why would they shoot VE of them all? Let me tell you what I think happened. VE was jailed. Then scum KP didn't happen. Then you thought "fuck, our goon was jailed." and then you posted that. Overall, zephir's entire play this game has shown a fear to commit to any particular line of thinking; a fear I don't believe a town player would have, which is why I believe zephir is scum. Now, another person who's been avoiding the spotlight and also caught my attention recently is Shraft. This one I'm a little less sure about and I think the fact that I have a town read on risk.nuke might be influencing my opinions. However, something about this post just seems off: On June 25 2012 10:30 Shraft wrote: risk.nuke you need to step up your game. Wanting to lynch lurers and then lurking hard yourself makes you look bad. On top of that your only substantial post is the one where you defend yourself (you never followed up on that post either, despite saying that you would). Why would you even bother defending that hard when nobody agreed with his case anyway? You ask for the other lurkers to share their reads and to contribute, but you do nothing of the kind yourself. Aside from lurkers, you're only suspicious of rastaban (but you haven't really shared much thought on him either, it looks more like OMGUS to me). And what the fuck is this? He would've tried to dodge the lynch regardless of his alignment, why do you act as if it is a scum tell? I'm not sure exactly what it is about this post that gets me, but it just seems like he's trying too hard to make something out of nothing. I don't even think risk.nuke mentions wanting to lynch lurkers. And asking why someone would bother defending themselves? I can imagine why a towny would want to defend themself.... It's certainly not a case on Shraft, more just a feeling at this point, but I'm definitely keeping my eye on him. For now though, my vote goes on zephir. ##Vote zephirdd | ||
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On June 25 2012 22:40 Shraft wrote: @Snarfs I'm not trying to make something out of nothing. The issue with that post is that he takes something that is a null tell and says that it makes rastaban look even scummier. The reason that I brought up that he unnecessarily defended is because he mentioned it in bypass in this post where he said he wanted MrZ to explain himself. He says "He spends half of his posts unnecessarily defending himself and the other half is useless 1-worders.". You're right on the lurker lynching part, he never explicitly says "I want to lynch lurkers". I took it for granted that he had said something along those lines after reading someone else's post about risk, quite likely this post by VE, but now, after looking through his filter, I realised that he hadn't. The closest thing he's said would be that he was too lenient on lurkers before, which clearly isn't the same thing. risk.nuke is a null tell for me right now. Can you explain why you have a town read on him? Hmm that makes sense. I'd actually missed the part where he mentions that MrZ spends half his posts unnecessarily defending himself. It was actually this quote here that gave me a towny vibe on risk.nuke: On June 23 2012 10:15 risk.nuke wrote: So my first thought is what two players are yelling the loudest at eachother. It's Vicera and Marv. So naturally my first assumption would be to remove both of those from my day 1 lynch pool. While Vicera doubtlessly seems like the towniest townie ever towned marv seems a bit scummy. Partly because how his inabillity to see how Vicera is town. If one of VE or marv are scum, then risk.nuke is tying himself closely to the lynch and that seems like bad scum play given we would surely come back and notice that risk.nuke didn't want to lynch into them during day 1. If VE and marv are both town, I don't think that mafia would immediately think to remove two loud players from their lynch pool, but would rather be looking to see which one appeared weaker or had a bandwagon form on them in order to eliminate the more vocal members. Either way I wouldn't see a scum player wanting to make this statement. I'm going to go through VE and marv's back and forth again today. I think I also need to go over Probulous again given slOosh's suspicions, but I probably won't have time until this evening as I've got a pile of work to do today. | ||
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- I agree that marv's case on VE was entirely a stretch. To reference his conclusion: On June 26 2012 00:33 marvellosity wrote: Conclusion: All his scumhunting is a sham. He knows and states I'm an excellent scum player, but somehow then thinks I would come into this game as scum and play scummily. He twists my words. He never talks about rastaban despite promising to, despite saying he didn't want to lynch Zentor and rastaban being the main alternative. In fact he never pushes any alternative. Pushes prplhz because it's an easy thing to do. - It's all WIFOM for us to guess what you would do as scum - You're exaggerating to say that he twists your words - Yes, he never talks about rastaban, but that is a null tell - both scum and town can get busy and/or forget to respond to certain things - He pushes you and prplhz and at least mentions his suspicions of zephir, plus you're clearly his biggest scum read On June 26 2012 11:42 Probulous wrote: marvellosity [--snip--] TLDR: marvel was caught off guard by Mattchew's question and chose to throw it back to the thread. This in itself could be a town response but when he told us that his scummy behaviour made him town, he hit on a plan to ensure he wasn't lynched. He knew his initial response was inadequate but chose to use his scummy response as a tool to cause confusion and shit up the thread. By never taking the multiples chances he had, to clarify his original position, he ensured that the mess continued for as long as possible. Whenever VE or I pushed him to contribute he could just reply with his meta defense that he cannot be scum because scum would never do this. If we believe that, then we would never lynch anyone. If he had just stated the truth, that he responded rashly and would take the time to provide a proper answer, I would have dropped this case. But his insistence that it takes up as much of Day 1 as possible makes me believe he is mafia. ##Vote marvellosity - Why would town continue to be vague and confusing in their responses after seeing that people thought it was scummy? I have to agree with Probulous's case here and Shraft's own recently posted opinions. marv consciously played an anti-town day 1 and I just don't believe that he would do that as town after being mislynched so recently in a similar game. ##Vote marvellosity @Mattchew: You list marv as one of your scum reads; yet for some reason you think that rastaban is a better lynch today? You even say that "Either way [marv] eventually needs a noose." So why bother prolonging this if you're that sure he needs to hang? Protecting your scumbuddy? | ||
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On June 26 2012 03:43 rastaban wrote: @Snarfs But notice how even after he says to remove both of them he follows up with "marv seems a bit scummy. Partly because how his inabillity to see how Vicera is town." which leaves it open for a future vote and still throws suspicion on marv. As for removing VE from the lynch pool, marvs recent vote on VE was the first this whole game. Despite the back and forth it was only ever 1 way, VE was not in any danger of being lyched at any point so all he really states is: don't vote marv yet, but he is a bit scummy. Also a lot of people had come out in defense of marv by that point saying we need to hold off on lynching him. If this had been the one to help get the votes off marv I would be more inclined to think it town aligned but as it is, it just seems regurgitated to me. I think I might have had the timings wrong on that one. For some reason I thought that both VE and marv were viable candidates at that time so if risk.nuke wanted to move the vote one way or the other he could have at least attempted to do so. Looking back though, you're right, VE was never really a candidate. | ||
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On June 25 2012 08:07 Probulous wrote: If a person is jailed are they notified? If so, is the notification the same as if they have been roleblocked? On June 26 2012 09:46 Probulous wrote: Some of you have missed my reasoning for this post. Since we had two day posts with different night actions I wanted to see if I could glean some information from reactions between those two posts. Remember scum and the SK would be expecting night kills. If I was an SK and my shot didn't go through I would know I had been roleblocked but with no notification. Hence I would be completely confused, expecially given the shot was likely Zephirdd (explained previously). So I would have to assume that either the host got the night stuff mixed up, or they forgot to send me my PM, or I don't get a notification of a blocked hit. There would be a big chance that someone roleblocked me preventing my kill and that could be town or mafia, so coming out and saying anything about the SK would be risky. Especially immediately after the night. No I would expect the SK to be much more cautious after possibly being blocked, hence my statement. Anyone else notice this? Looks like Prob slipped and claimed SK. | ||
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On June 26 2012 15:15 Probulous wrote: ROFL, I love you Snarfs. No I am not the SK. Yes I was roleblocked. I guess my strategy of playing blues roles just like plain VT roles is finally paying off! Come on mafia, I dare you to block me again, am I a VT or am I blue If you have any questions about that post, let me know because no-one has commented on it. @VE, that is my only concern as well. The only motivation I can find is that it causes mayhem and he clearly felt he was never going to get lynched, so why not make the entire first day about him? It gives cover to other scum and I have no doubt that a scum marv would have the balls to pull it off (bad image I know). I also want to know why people are happy voting for him now and not yesterday. Well, I don't fully follow your reasoning for why an SK would not want to assert that there must not be an SK in the game, but that seems more like post-game discussion material. | ||
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On June 27 2012 00:17 marvellosity wrote: His argument is thusly: He's played this was as town before, so he can't be town! He's not played this way as scum, so I'm going to ignore that fact and say he must be scum! Logic fail. Actually, my argument is thusly: Premiss 1: He was recently mislynched as town Premiss 2: If he's town he'd be more worried about being mislynched because of (1) Premiss 3: He is not acting like he's worried about being mislynched Conclusion: Not town. Premiss 1 is verifiable Premiss 2 is hard to dismiss on the basis that your mislynch contributed to us losing the game and I don't think that you like losing games. Premiss 3 is reflected in your "I'm actually playing a scummy town game" defense. @risk.nuke: You say VE is the towniest town that ever towned. Marv says he's going to kill VE if you let him live. You say that marv should be left alive. What? Now that's a logic fail. | ||
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On June 27 2012 01:33 marvellosity wrote: This game is fun. Premise 1: I never play scummily as scum Premise 2: I therefore never get lynched as scum Premise 3: Therefore I would not put myself in this position Premise 1 is verifiable Premise 2 is verifiable Premise 3 is reflected in this game. BUT, you dismiss the scumplaying marv argument, and only stick to the townplaying marv argument. Scum. But if nobody expects you to play scummily as scum, then that's the perfect scum play T_T. | ||
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- Why would town continue to be vague and confusing in their responses after seeing that people thought it was scummy? | ||
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On June 27 2012 02:06 marvellosity wrote: And why would scum continue to be so vague and confusing when people thought it was scummy? To make themselves look more scummy? What? Fuck, it doesn't make sense from either perspective. The only explanation is that you were either scum not thinking or town not thinking. | ||
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On June 27 2012 02:19 marvellosity wrote: I think risk nuke is town Can you elaborate on this? I don't see much towniness between where you said you were having trouble reading him to this position. | ||
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Like, when you said this: On June 26 2012 22:44 marvellosity wrote: I'm fairly sure I know what risk's explanation is, but I want to hear it from him. xsksc, can you work out what it might be? What were you expecting? | ||
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On June 27 2012 04:36 marvellosity wrote: I thought I'd explained this. I had a scumread on you prior to our big argument but took that argument as a town tell. Having had another look at LI I decided it could no longer be a town tell. Also Radfield and I, at the start of Redux, talked about WoF and his case on you. He told me that it wasn't so much his case that made him truly believe you were scum, but your response to it. It's funny because in WoF you originally made a joke to Radfield about it (basically your whole case is just a gut read) and then you backed down from it and said (paraphrasing) "lol only joking I'll answer your case properly later". The similarities are striking. VE's biggest scum-tell in WoF (from the guy who shot him in the face) was his lack of caring towards who got lynched. I think this game he clearly cares (see his anger directed at prplhz and his questioning of Mattchew's vote on rastaban). | ||
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I honestly don't know what to think about marv right now. It's illogical for either scum or town to be in the situation he's in right now. If he's scum, like prplhz said, he had to have known that he was likely to lose the 1-on-1 with VE by bringing up his case again today, and he'd be taking a huge gamble that a fake claim would save him. If he's town, we just have to believe that he was dumb and/or cocky enough to not answer a couple questions straight up... and that he actually believes VE is scummy.... But again, scum would want to push easy lynches, not someone who everyone else thinks is town. Like, it's bad town play but it's got to be even worse scum play. | ||
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On June 27 2012 07:29 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Vote Count - 5 Hours to go risk.nuke (0): Zephirdd (RIP) (0): rastaban (1): xsksc VisceraEyes (0): marvellosity (4): VisceraEyes, Probulous, Shraft, Mattchew xsksc (1): risk.nuke Shraft (1): prplhz Mattchew (1): Rastaban Not voted (2): Snarfs, marvellosity This is wrong. My vote is currently on marv. | ||
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On June 27 2012 08:59 marvellosity wrote: Snarfs, as town or scum the fact is I got embroiled by my own arrogance/bad play day 1 with not answering the questions. Those are the common things. Your only other thing you mention there about if I'm town is that I think someone you have a strong town read on is scum. Is that really so hard to believe? But if I'm scum you have to accept that I went after VE originally, and having dropped it, I then fucking did it again. That is just INSANE. Absolutely insane. And that's ignoring my meta defence which I won't restate but nonetheless exists. I know it's insane, I'm just debating whether I'm sure enough that you're not insane - and that the rest of the town can come to a similar conclusion - that I'd prefer a no lynch (which I've stated in the past usually favors scum because scum fucking love denying information) since that's what seems pretty damn likely if we don't lynch you. | ||
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In the hopes that my vote is useful: ##Unvote ##Vote Mattchew I can add some more explanation why Mattchew over risk.nuke tonight when I get home but that's my general feeling right now. | ||
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It was mainly these two things that really stood out for me: a) His asking marv a question at the beginning, then not checking back 7 minutes later to see the answer nor comment seemed like it was a really easy way to fake a contribution. b) The way he voted when he made his group of cases. If marv was one of his primary targets and marv was the clear vote leader, why vote rastaban? He claims that rastaban was his strongest scum read and he was willing to switch to marv, but he made it quite clear that he was almost certain marv was SK: On June 26 2012 12:05 Mattchew wrote: [--snip--] I actually should maybe color Marv black, because I think his play just feels very off. I think I lean him being the SK more than I do him being scum. Either way he eventually needs a noose. His filter is long and fluffy. A ton of arguing with VE but even more deflecting of actual answers... instead he resorts to inane arguments full of WIFOM and fallacys, like in all these filter enhancing posts. Can someone pick me out anything pro-town from these? [--snip--] "Either way he eventually needs a noose." That doesn't sound like someone on the fence to me. marv was clearly the more likely lynch and it would have made more sense to vote with others in order to ensure your reads are lynched. As for risk.nuke, my read isn't as strong: I really disliked how he didn't seem to care if marv shot VE. Especially after he said he was leaning slightly scum on marv for not seeing how townie VE could be. risk.nuke gives me this sense of not really caring who gets lynched or who gets shot, which has me leaning SK on him. risk, why you were willing to let marv shoot VE? Do you think VE is scum? | ||
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How does that compare to your seeming lack of care about what marv's answer to your own question was? Hell, you claimed not to like his answer and that he was grasping at straws, and then you never pushed him further, you switched to MrZ and rastaban... | ||
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##Vote Mattchew I think this is an obvious lynch today. Both Probulous and VE were suspicious of him and it's just reaffirming my beliefs. I'm going to read over the thread again tonight after work and try to get my other reads down. Since there were two RB's night 1, unless someone else comes in and claims another RB risk.nuke is clear. Also, SK had to be shooting for scum last night since he can't win with all scum left - I assume that means he shot xsksc so we're looking for someone who was probably showing suspicions of him (Mattchew and risk.nuke immediately come to mind, again another point against Matt). | ||
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So if we lynch SK we lose, right? ##Unvote I definitely need to think about this more. Mattchew's probably our best bet for anti-town but I'm not so positive he's mafia over SK. | ||
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On June 28 2012 08:17 marvellosity wrote: Snarfs, I trust your judgement. Make your reads and I will discuss them with you. But you pretty much need to pin the entire team and then choose the SK between them somehow. I appreciate the confidence, but we should both come up with our own reads separately and then compare. Just imagine we're back in PYP. I think we soundboarded well off each other there and we can do it again here. | ||
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Besides, how can you list risk as SK if he had to be faking an RB claim? | ||
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Why I don't think he's mafia (and what gave me a townie vibe on him): - He has contributed to scum hunting and has not been afraid to push his reads (see his pushes against marvellosity, zephirdd, risk.nuke, and most recently, rastaban) - His thought processes have been clear and easy to follow and he consistently responded well to people's cases against him - He genuinely appears interested in lynching scum over townies. Why I think he's SK: - The biggest tell for me is that he got overly emotional in his case against risk.nuke after the flip when it was revealed that there was no deaths: Compare his attack against risk.nuke: On June 25 2012 10:30 Shraft wrote: risk.nuke you need to step up your game. Wanting to lynch lurers and then lurking hard yourself makes you look bad. On top of that your only substantial post is the one where you defend yourself (you never followed up on that post either, despite saying that you would). Why would you even bother defending that hard when nobody agreed with his case anyway? You ask for the other lurkers to share their reads and to contribute, but you do nothing of the kind yourself. Aside from lurkers, you're only suspicious of rastaban (but you haven't really shared much thought on him either, it looks more like OMGUS to me). And what the fuck is this? He would've tried to dodge the lynch regardless of his alignment, why do you act as if it is a scum tell? With his one against zephirdd just a day before: On June 24 2012 09:01 Shraft wrote: This much I already get. What I am interested in is what made you jump from glaring scum tell to town. If it's a meta argument it must be something very indicative so that you can be sure of his alignment, right? I mean, how can you be so sure of him being town just because of some similarities? I believe that every player acts in a (somewhat) similar way in every game, regardless of alignment. I'd like you to elaborate more on what made you think rastaban is town, if you please. Something more specific than just the general "there are some similarities". It just seems so much angrier against risk.nuke. We would expect him to be angry because he's probably thinking at this time that mafia KP was blocked and his KP didn't go through because he made a stupid mistake of emailing the wrong mod. Mafia in that situation though, would probably just assume that their KP had been jailed. Also, looking at the night 1 kill: Night 1: slOosh + zephirdd. zephirdd was looking scummy and Shraft was expressing his suspicions of zephirdd: On June 24 2012 05:10 Shraft wrote: @prplhz Good post. I am growing suspicious of [zephirdd] as well. That's why I questioned him here. I don't know if we have enough time or enough people to lynch him, but I think I'd rather have him lynched than rastaban or Zentor. Conclusion: Shraft SK Which leaves us with: rastaban, Mattchew, and prplhz I have to agree with Shraft in that rastaban has looked the scummiest of them all and I'm pissed off at myself for not pushing that read harder earlier in the game. Also one more thing to notice in his giant fluffy post at the beginning of the game is the comparison to Bang Bang mafia. Notice in Bang Bang how short and to the point it is: On June 11 2012 22:33 rastaban wrote: While I agree that Toad's plan was inherently flawed, I think there were some good points.. Millers should claim, and we should force them to shoot. Later we can sort out any false claims etc... but it gets us started in the right direction. I agree there could be more than 1 miller so the self shooting is a bad thing and will have us ending up with 2 wasted lynches. I am worried that our day 1 shot is going to happen within 5 minutes of daytime as people try to make a point to get themselves remembered for shooting X as soon as the game started for teh LOLz. Lets step away from this, while anyone can kill I think we need to at least start off with in-thread voting before the shot is fired, and if we can have the millers doing it until they have all shot so much the better. If we can get the miller claims into the open (assuming there are some) and then have them do our designated shooting for us for the first cycle or two we not only gain some information on them, but also on the discussion about who they should be shooting. Now compare that with his opening this game: On June 22 2012 16:46 rastaban wrote: Just caught up on what is the "haps", here are my thoughts. First, I agree with the Millers claim day one, and policy lynching all Millers after today. In a game where they are self aware it is a huge boon for town. The benefits far out way the negative of less people with possible blue roles. First and most importantly it guarantees our checks. Detectives know any red checks from non-mafia get lynched, since sanity isn't an issue in this game. Any Mafia will always claim miller if checked and we don't force a day 1 reveal. It will cause a lot of confusion, it is best to eliminate this by forcing day one claims. It also forces Mafia's hand, if they want to claim they have to do it now before they are in too much water. This is hard for mafia to do, they don't want to be scrutinized and that is why they claim miller as a last resort. While it is argued that Millers make it easier to snipe blues it also makes our blues more effective. Look at Bang Bang where I, as a doctor, pushed strongly for a miller claim night one. Second, the focus of Marv makes me think of karma after seeing him do it to Gonzaw in our last game together. We need to be careful with tunneling though, when you push someone so hard day1, they will often come across as scum no matter what since the only content you have is them trying to defend themselves against accusations. He could be scum but I just want to say that we need to be cautious, as I feel the case against him is a bit biased. Now his day 1 "meta" is to spam 1 liners so I personally wouldn't mind him getting lynched if there isn't a better candidate but I feel like there is too much discussion on him this early in our day. Remember we have 48 hours, half that time hasn't even passed yet so I don't like the band wagoning on Marv so quickly. That said I have a hard time getting anything from his filter right now. Some people analyze best when their quarry is under pressure but for me that introduces too many variables so I like to read posts where they aren't defending themselves. So marv would you mind answering the original question ( as leading as it may be) about what you feel are your tells, and second who do you feel is most likely scum? The first paragraph in either says exactly the same thing and look how much he's fluffed it up. It's such an obvious difference. marv, what do you think of my assessment of Shraft's play? And what about risk.nuke vs rastaban? I think this makes more sense than from a risk.nuke is scum fake-claiming RB standpoint. ##Vote rastaban | ||
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But if rastaban is pushing prplhz because he thinks he's the SK then that would make either Shraft or risk.nuke scum and Shraft is pushing rastaban so that would either be a tricky bus or risk.nuke is scum. Or rastaban is now busing prplhz because mafia know they have expendable members. Or rastaban is town which means risk.nuke is scum and he really is faking the claim. There are some fucked up mind games going on here :| | ||
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On June 29 2012 03:32 marvellosity wrote: rastaban: a tidbit for you to consider. Post your thoughts as you please. When Snarfs voted for Mattchew yesterday, he was leaving the thread and it seemed like there was zero danger of Mattchew getting lynched. Except I voted Mattchew over risk.nuke in part because I felt he had a better chance of being lynched than risk did :/ - VE was willing to switch to either Mattchew or risk.nuke - Could have gone either way - Probulous had said he wasn't going to vote for you - Could maybe have gone either way - I thought for sure prplhz was going to vote Mattchew (him and risk.nuke were on a similar page about you) - risk.nuke obviously wasn't going to vote for either himself or you - rastaban was more willing at that point to vote Mattchew than risk.nuke I mean, go back and read that entire section. People were going to kill Mattchew and I would have been absolutely more pleased with that than the no lynch that VE caused. | ||
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On June 29 2012 03:48 rastaban wrote: Hmmm His case comes moments after I switch my vote to you. If he was scum bussing Matt b/c he felt he wouldn't actually be lynched at that point then there is a possibility of a Matt, Snarfs, X team. I was thinking he votted matt when I was pushing for matt as well, but I checked and it actually occurs after I switched my vote to you. Ok time to reread how that went down a few times and see what I can learn. This isn't even logical. If I wanted to bus Matt, it would make more sense to have done it while your vote was on him. I basically reinvigorated the voting on Matt! I made it so that anyone who was online at the time had to choose between marvellosity and Mattchew and people were not sold on lynching marv. Please tell me you can see that... | ||
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2 reasons. The first I've already stated: On June 24 2012 01:51 Snarfs wrote: Hmm RE: MrZentor lynch, I get what slOosh is saying about it feeling wrong. Something seems off about prplhz and how he sort of spearheaded this lynch by first starting with a vote on MrZentor and then his case just kept getting stronger and stronger. Normally when you're hunting scum you: 1) Find evidence that someone might be scum 2) Vote said person 3) If you're really sure, try to convince others that he's scum However, what I'm seeing here from prplhz is: 1) Vote said person 2) Try to convince others to vote said person 3) Find evidence that he might be scum I would appreciate some others looking over prplhz again and telling me what they think. The second is because if he was following the thread at all before he voted you yesterday he would have realized it was unlikely you were actually going to be lynched despite the number of votes on you; therefore, his vote on you does not match his reasoning at all and he should have been voting Mattchew if he wanted to avoid a no lynch. | ||
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rastaban, are you reading the same game I am? marv was not going to get lynched! Probulous said he wasn't going to vote him, risk.nuke wasn't going to vote him, VE was sitting right on the fence and prplhz's vote on him came from left field. "marv was a sure thing" lol. That is totally not true and I dare anyone to try to go back and objectively reread that section and tell me otherwise. | ||
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On June 29 2012 07:17 marvellosity wrote: ##Vote: Snarfs I believe him most likely to be roleblocker as he has been protected most. Throughout day 1 and day 2 he was less engaged than I would expect from a townie Snarfs. My point I made on day 2 earlier still stands where he dismissed my scum meta as wifom but condemned me because of town meta (this still doesn't make sense). The point you made doesn't stand because I listened to you. I had made a mistake. I missed something, someone corrected me and I listened and changed my vote accordingly. Tell me how you read scum from that. | ||
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Now look at both rastaban and Mattchew's viewpoints on today. They have basically given up their own thought processes and said something along the lines of "Okay, marv, lead us to victory!" This is scum thought. It doesn't matter to them if you end up lynching a scum or two, they just look damn good so that when it comes down to it, they can still pull off the win. Lo and behold, you point your finger at one of the last remaining townies. Sweet, says rastaban, I'll make up some reason to join the vote and hop on the wagon. I don't want to lose because the confirmed town encouraged scum to sheep him into lynching me. That's dumb as hell and you know it. | ||
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On June 26 2012 16:30 risk.nuke wrote: Leaning mafia but I will be able to tell with alot more certainty tomorrow so I'll try to find someone better to lynch. risk.nuke makes it sound like he's a cop planning on checking rastaban! What happens the next night!? risk is roleblocked! :OOOO | ||
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Look at what rastaban has done this game:
Come on marv, it's right in front of you! | ||
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I think I played better than my first scum game but I had better town against me. One thing that pissed me off was the whole "Oh, he's being protected so he must be important scum" argument. As me and Mattchew showed and VE and Toad showed in LI and others have shown in the past, relying on connections is dumb as shit. Mattchew was scum in the water on day 1 when he clearly didn't give a shit what marv's response to his question (and his question was dumb and you guys should have called him on it [look at Mini X where town calls wiggles out on his dumb question]) and prplhz was... lynching MrZ for no damn good reason and should have been called out too. I just want to play town again so I have a chance to call people out again on things like this. At the same time though, I was terrible scum myself. I was looking for easy town mistakes that I could call out on people and it fucked me because slOosh immediately recognized it. SlOosh for town mvp imo. Don't really care about the rest. I learned a bunch and I will be better for next game TL towns so watch the fuck out (except if you mislynch me when I'm town Imma be pissed). Probulous, hopefully one day we'll be on the same team. Glad to gift wrap your first win for you buddy  . Maybe next time you'll earn it :D hwehwehwe! | ||
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On July 03 2012 19:32 marvellosity wrote: So you're calling me retarded for picking you out as roleblocker for reasons *you* fail to properly grasp. Thanks bro. I'm really sorry, I was drunk when I wrote that . I didn't mean for it to come off as harsh as it did. You played well after the whole VE thing ended and deserved the win. | ||
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