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Bugs to the rescue! Snarfie mac snarfs, I expect us to finally be townies together, and I expect that luck number 7 will be my first win. I am setting up preparations for the victory celebration. Humming this is just so much fun This is C9++ setup no? | ||
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One day I will lead my growing horde of losers to Victo... Um. One day I lead my growing legion of merry men to a great and glorious triump... One... Ah shit  | ||
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On June 20 2012 13:45 VisceraEyes wrote: Also I'm /in to LVI, so feel free to nix me if demand...demands it. I'll be a replacement instead, if needed. This would make me sad. I want to be completely wrong/right about you again and unsuccesfully try to persuade the thread to lynch/save you. | ||
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On June 21 2012 02:30 VisceraEyes wrote: Oh my god....TL Mafia would never recover. Ive been in a town whitewash before (in fact the original C9++) so at least the game would be over quickly  Ill have to crack open some champagne if I win this one. | ||
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Don't encourage him, if he doesn't even bother to read the OP, he won't bother to read the thread. Given it looks like he will be in the game, I am going to put on my nostradamus hat and ##Vote grush57 | ||
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I'm sorry but I am town this game. Snarfs, that's mean and I thought we were friends @VE, your vote makes little sense what happened to Marv? Actually, where is Marv, he owes me my alimony? | ||
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It is worth noting that Bugs has altered this a little so we cannot rely on these as concrete rules. However the most important thing to remember is that in this setup, it is possible to have weird things such as two medics. In short, be wary of claims. | ||
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On June 22 2012 08:29 VisceraEyes wrote: Votes = Tools. Not going over this again this game. Fair enough, I forgot who I was asking. You did back off Marv pretty quickly though. Why? I mean this is terrible and you pointed it out On June 22 2012 07:31 VisceraEyes wrote: The point of the self-evaluation was to see if you left anything out - obviously we can go and look for ourselves Marv, and we'll have our own opinion...but for you to turn the question around and ask for his answer first is incredibly scummy and immediately forces me to not trust you. He still hasn't responded adequately. He is around note On June 22 2012 08:17 marvellosity wrote: VE, prplhz last played with Zentor in WoF. Enough said really. But is he isn't bothering to actually answer Mattchew's question. So yeah, why the let up? Marv, I want that alimony! | ||
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On June 22 2012 08:44 marvellosity wrote: Probey, you'll have to get in touch with my lawyer. And I have at least partly answered the question, you're just not on the ball enough to have worked it out yet. count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat compare to current situation Why are you so cryptic? It's your job to prove you're town so you should want to provide information to us. ##Vote marvellosity This time it's personal @Mattchew, you have nothing to say  | ||
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Masons can wait, unless they are up for lynch, they should be quiet for today. Everyone else keep your mouth shut. We play this game based on posting, claim when you absolutely have to and not before then. The less opportunity we give to WIFOM us the better. | ||
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On June 22 2012 09:38 slOosh wrote: It's absolutely imperative that we resolve this miller claim issue. If we aren't all on the same page then scum can use the miller business to screw us over later. It has to be clear. Late-claiming millers will be policy lynched on the basis of it is purely anti-town. Scum can also "look VT and pro-town", so that is just foolish Zephirdd. How about we just ignore Millers? I mean no-one has claimed, they are just a possibility and even then, for them to have any influence on the game, they have to be checked by a DT. Like I said earlier, beware any claim in this setup. So let's drop the issue. If we get screwed because someone plays scummy, gets checked red and turns out to be miller, well so be it. Can you do something other than go on about Millers? Where the fuck is Mattchew? He is the one that asked Marv the original question and has nothing to say about Marv's response or the push on Marv? | ||
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On June 22 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: I think he's pushing me dodgily. Haven't worked out if it's scummy or VE just being VE yet. See here is what I don't understand.
Why haven't you answered the original question? You admitted it's a good question, you claim VE is misrepresenting you but isn't scum so surely the best way to clear your name would be to outline exactly what you intended when you briefly referenced those games. I mean you seem to be saying that VE is mistaken but don't bother to actually take the time to thorughly correct the mistake. Why? Because you don't want to answer the question. Townies want to provide data and clarity and you just wanted to move onto other things. Has Matt just left the thread then? >< | ||
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In this game, unless you underestimate me which I think you do not, you should be aware that I know making a sidestep to Mattchew's question could be viewed scummily, and I'd avoid it like the fucking plague if I were scum. So by not answering his question you were proving you're town? | ||
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On June 22 2012 07:16 marvellosity wrote: you may quiz me and i will answer your questions. 2) Then you dilberately obfuscate and avoid answering the question On June 22 2012 07:29 marvellosity wrote: I like this question a lot. I think there are a couple of possible tells. But tell me what you think first. On June 22 2012 07:32 marvellosity wrote: lol, ok dear. If people could look for themselves, then maybe just one person in the whole of LV and the obsQT might have had a tingling suspicion, no? No. 3)You explain that this was not a mistake but instead part of an elaborate plan to do something no scum would do and so therefore prove you are town On June 22 2012 10:05 marvellosity wrote: "The similar thing, VE, is that I wasn't afraid of saying something that was scummy in that game. In this game, unless you underestimate me which I think you do not, you should be aware that I know making a sidestep to Mattchew's question could be viewed scummily, and I'd avoid it like the fucking plague if I were scum." If you are town, you are saying that you deliberately avoided answering Mattchew to cause a shitstorm to prove you're town? You don't say it was a mistake, or a joke but rather a calculated plan. You give yourself too little credit Marv. I think you're scum who tried to joke off a difficult question and didn't expect people to latch onto it. Now you are backpedalling as fast as you can. | ||
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On June 22 2012 10:19 marvellosity wrote: wrong way of looking at it Prob if I were scum I'd have thought more before answering matt's question. even if this conversation has been quite interesting So it was a mistake then | ||
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On June 22 2012 10:00 slOosh wrote: VE I think you are paranoid town right now. Yes, Marv could be scum. But I really don't see it right now and it's dominating the thread in a bad way. Zephirdd, the benefits of a "possible blue" is nothing compared to the possible headaches caused by miller claims. That's why we make any miller claim D1. So who is scum then slOosh? | ||
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On June 22 2012 07:43 MrZentor wrote: I'm not scum; I'm just busy playing LoL. On June 22 2012 08:04 MrZentor wrote: Everybody's so aggressive. On June 22 2012 10:57 MrZentor wrote: Anything I can do?  I'm starting to agree with prpl  How about you find us some mafia? Who is top of your suspicion list? | ||
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How about we write limericks instead There once was a scum called Sloosh Who prowled the town on the loose He lurked all day With nothing to say Until we lynched him at dusk with a noose Eh, Foolishness has more talent. | ||
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On June 22 2012 08:25 slOosh wrote: Could you guys please cut back on the chatter / one liners? It may be harmless now but later on its really going to hamper thread legibility. Downer man, downer  I think Snarfs is suspicious for taking prplhz too seriously. Nice little cast of suspicion with no response once Snarfs points out how serious Prpl looked. On June 22 2012 10:00 slOosh wrote: VE I think you are paranoid town right now. Yes, Marv could be scum. But I really don't see it right now and it's dominating the thread in a bad way. Zephirdd, the benefits of a "possible blue" is nothing compared to the possible headaches caused by miller claims. That's why we make any miller claim D1. Sloosh says marv could be scum but he isn't scum Also downer again.On June 22 2012 10:02 slOosh wrote: Alright Prob summarized it nice and concisely for me. This is something I'm interested in. This is where I was pushing Marv as scum, I still have my vote on him so why Sloosh thinks that I think Marv is town is beyond me. He is coasting which is really really bad. He is taking uncontroversial positions and soft accusing people. He has also disappeared when asked about his scum reads. I would be happy to lynch him if marv comes back with something good. | ||
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On June 22 2012 11:21 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually that last Prob I read as him finally seeing our point where Marv is concerned...ymmv Ive got that tingly feeling about him. He is being really careful which is not something I expect from townies. He didn't mention Marv at all until you forced him too and then marv is "possibly scum". Very diplomatic and very neutral. If you don't know, then just say that you don't know. He is hedging there and it doesn't look right. | ||
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Right now my main suspicion is Snarfs. I brought it up before about his question of prplhz. I believe it reveals a(n intentional) lack of comprehension. Prplhz never said Zentor was stifling discussion. He made it pretty clear that he just didn't like playing with him. I find Snarf's particular way of questioning "off". I know it's no 3 point case, but it's what I have right now. His follow up post doesn't inspire anything either - he calls out Zephirdd for weak contributions yet he himself is guilty of the same thing thus far. Contrast that to his clearly excited pre-game chatter. On June 22 2012 08:10 prplhz wrote: Hey zentor you don't get to say shit like that and you know why. Anyway, zentor is actually complaining that he is being focused and cracking under pressure but he is not providing anything else we should talk about, just trying to stifle ongoing discussion. On page 2. On June 22 2012 08:24 Snarfs wrote: @prplhz: Zentor realized the errors in his ways and has attempted to correct them (see wbg's last game). Could you show me where you believe he is stifling discussion? His response seems genuine to me. Especially since prpl really did look like he wanted to lynch Zentor. Pre-game doesn't matter to me and he normally doesn't post diatribes (ala me or VE) but smallish incisive posts. I like the decisiveness slOosh but I disagree on the Snarfs thing. Right now he is a null to me. If he wasn't contributed more by tomorrow then we can talk again. | ||
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Honestly that is how I feel when I read his filter. He comes out blazing for Zentor which could just be pent up rage from previous games. I know I feel that way about Bluelightz. He says he was contributing in the iGrok game but he looked like he didn't care. Could be similar here so really he is still a fat null for me. Urgh, so many null reads, oh well it is early day 1, we can make progress when these people start posting. | ||
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On June 22 2012 12:47 MrZentor wrote: It's still stupid to lynch somebody who you know to be a blue. Are you willfully not scumhunting? Is there nothing in this thread that you find suspicious? | ||
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On June 22 2012 13:09 VisceraEyes wrote: Mang, I've never seen this side of slOosh before. Prob, you take back what you said right now! Sometimes you really confuse me. | ||
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He seems useless to me, he seemed useless in iGrok's game and was town. I won't get in your way if you want to lynch him I just can't tell if he is scum or not right now. Convince me | ||
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I will pop into the thread every now and then but I am afraid I am relying on you guys to pick up my slack for the next day or so. I'll be back to form on Monday. We aren't in a bad position with most people commenting on something and some nice back and forth. The guys who haven't posted need to make themselves heard. Good luck! | ||
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In amongst the washing and doing dishes I have found some time to catch up on the thread which has a grand total of two new posts. Rastaban, nice to see you join the game with some sound logical advice. Now who is your top scum read and why? Actually, these people need to stop commenting and start contributing (ie stop telling me who isn't scum and tell who is) Snarfs Zephirdd Rastaban MrZentor Mattchew Prplhz risk.nuke marvel and the other lurkers who haven't posted anything (Shraft and von Klaust II). I hate to be a prick about it but we need reads. Stop playing nice and get your hands dirty  PS if I missed you don't take it personally. | ||
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Keep your panties on. Marv, where is that scum hunting you promised me? Put together your case on VE and let us decide. Shouting and insulting each other gets us nowhere. | ||
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Prplhz, Im sorry you are right. Calling you useless was not nice and I apologise. FrOm phone | ||
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On June 22 2012 11:03 MrZentor wrote: I really don't think either one of VE/Marv is scum. On June 23 2012 11:20 Zephirdd wrote: Holy shit. Look at pages 16 and 17. I just solved this game. VE, marv are both scum bussing the F* out of each other. When was the last time this happened? I remember someone saying it was an "OP strategy". Wasn't it Toad/VE doing it? I don't quite remember. Someone said LI, is that it? Either way, if one of them flips scum, I'm sure as hell attacking the other. I thought the initial "attacks" were terrible for both parties, but at this point this all feels fabricated to me. On June 23 2012 12:09 MrZentor wrote: I don't know Zephirdd....it got pretty intense, but I do agree that we should kill one of them. ##Vote: marvellosity ##Vote MrZentor He doesn't mention the other person who has two votes already (Rastaban) and just plonks down his vote on his earlier town read with no explanation. This makes no sense from a townie POV. If he wanted to waste his vote he would put it on someone who has 0 chance of getting lynched but instead he puts it on the highest vote getter who isn't himself. He wants marvel lynched but provides no reasoning. Worse he doesn't want Rastaban lynched but provides no reasoning for that either. Why did he vote for his town read over all the other possible candidates? Maybe it was a joke vote. Well as of now he hasn't moved it and given his lack of reasoning for anything I cannot assume he is joking. Zentor is playing the fool and hoping to slide by with minimum effort. He can play better than this and is putting in no effort. I am more confident of a Zentor mafia flip than a Rastaban flip and hence my vote. I also think there is a possibility they are both scum. Goodnight and Goodluck | ||
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MrZentor (5): prplhz, VisceraEyes, slOosh, marvellosity, Probulous marvellosity (2):vonKlaust II, MrZentor von Klaust II (1): risk.nuke risk.nuke (1): rastaban rastaban (2): Snarfs, Mattchew, Not voted yet (2): Zephirdd, Shraft, Come on guys, participate please. | ||
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On June 25 2012 07:05 rastaban wrote: Wow, that's good. Nice work Jailer! I have a case incoming in a bit, going to eat supper before I finish it. How do you know it was a jailer Sorry guys, Sloosh especially, for my limited play over the weekend. Will be more active today. Ony my way to work. From phone | ||
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If so, is the notification the same as if they have been roleblocked? | ||
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On June 25 2012 08:12 risk.nuke wrote: I can't imagine having a jailer that doesn't inform a person he's been roleblocked. Altough the role specifices that neither the Jailer or the target will be notified by a sucessfull save. That's why I asked the question. It is possible that someone gets jailed and doesn't get notified unless they have an action which fails. | ||
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On June 25 2012 08:34 marvellosity wrote: just gonna assume for now mafia shot VE and the jailer saved him by jailing him For someone who thought VE was scum this is an odd position to take. | ||
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On June 25 2012 08:49 Zephirdd wrote: Let me tell you what I think happened. VE was jailed. Then scum KP didn't happen. Then you thought "fuck, our goon was jailed." and then you posted that. Zephirdd, if scum's shot was blocked because the shooter was jailed they would get a roleblock notification. | ||
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Remember I have to make my mind hours before you do. There was no way I was going to be able to argue for my lynch and it didn't seem to be going anywhere so I switched to my next scummiest candidate. I hope that is enough for you to see the light but if you have more questions I will gladly answer them. Still working on Marv's filter. Something is wrotten in the state of Britain. | ||
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If you are roleblocked, claim it. It is that simple. It gives town more information that scum would already have. If the roleblocker or jailer claim, they are giving mafia more info which needs to be weighed up. | ||
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On June 25 2012 09:32 marvellosity wrote: slOosh, where have you gone? He's clearly putting together his case on me. I would if I was in his position. I haven't played well over the weekend and I know it. Oh well, we can see what he comes up with. Why did you change your read on VE? | ||
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I guessed that was what made you change your mind. I think you'll agree that your day 1 was less than spectacular so how are you planning on doing better? Who are your top scum suspects and why. You haven't pushed anything substantial and I am inclined to keep pushing you. I just don't want to tunnel. Urgh so confused right now >< | ||
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Hungover are we? | ||
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 OK, that's enough banter. I hope you feel better tomorrow. | ||
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On June 25 2012 07:05 slOosh wrote: Finally, something interesting. This also probably means no SK. On June 25 2012 07:32 Zephirdd wrote: Also, the lack of a second kill(assuming the scum KP was blocked) means there is no SK... or he was jailed/roleblocked too. This is so annoying >< The only two people who mention the removal of SK as a possibility end up dying at the new deadline. The fact is, unless someone claims a night 1 vig shot, there is a SK. If either of these guys were alive, they would be pretty much guaranteed not to be the SK. Fate, why do you laugh at me Zephirdd looked more scummy than slOosh by a country mile. So by my logic it is reasonable to assume it was mafia who shot slOosh, not the SK. Mafia shooting Zephirdd would make no sense. slOosh my man, sorry that we have let you down. We can chat after the game. | ||
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You started the whole Marvel thing and given his incredibly vague response why is this all you have to say about him On June 22 2012 13:42 Mattchew wrote: I dislike this answer greatly. The entire reason I asked was because of how strong your scum play has been recently, and that seemingly no-one (especially in this game) could finger you as scum. I was looking for an answer that would leave me with things to hold you accountable for. Instead, you dodge the question completely. I don't like your grasping at straws to use "im smarter than doing something so scummy" as a defense. If you knew it would look scummy, why would you do it? It serves no town purpose to act willfully scummy. On June 23 2012 04:10 Mattchew wrote: I figured that of all people he would have more insight as to his differences and tells in his scum/town play, he would have the most information. It was extremely early in the game and was what I thought a good time to go into a self meta analysis that if he were town, he would gladly bestow upon us the things that he would use to set himself apart from scum. Instead, he sidesteps the question completely, not leaving us with anything to hold him accountable or help us get a read on him. Then he says that he knew this answer would be viewed as scummy, which if something is scummy, it is anti-town. I don't see why he would post like that knowing it would not help town. From my reading it sounds like you think he is scum. You are certainly not happy with his reply. Which begs the question, if you are unhappy with his response but don't bother writing up a case, why ask the question? In fact you have nothing else to say about marvel at all. Then when you do push a case it is this terrible excuse for a vote on rastaban On June 23 2012 04:10 Mattchew wrote: (big post by post case on Risk.Nuke that I am not quoting) This all feels extremely middle of the road, I am ready to jump on a bandwagon but don't want to commit to anything scum play. He also contradicts himself about the talks about Marv, then contradicts his we have 48 hours post, by posting a case that he is pretty deadset on, about risk.nuke. Overall I just feel like Rastaban's posting has been flaky and his case on Risk is bad. To answer his question to the thread, I read his vote switch that he was not confident in a Marv lynch, and that he wanted to pressure a lurker with no content. Also, his first 30ish hour case doesn't take into account that Risk.nuke has played many many games before. ##Vote: rastaban Wishy washy and bad cases do not a scum make. Rastaban may be scum but if all he has done is be wishy-washy and push a bad case, he may be bad town as well. Of course you then jumped back onto your policy lynch of Zentor. What really confuses me is this On June 24 2012 06:04 Mattchew wrote: what exactly are you trying to do with this? save your scum teammate zentor with a no-lynch? When prpl was the guy who started the whole thing. Your play is substandard mattchew. The only case you have pushed has been Rastaban which is not revealing at all. What happened the crazy bastard who fake claimed a hit in LV? | ||
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On June 24 2012 06:41 prplhz wrote: i kind of want to lynch mattchew just because of that post he just made prpl, your thoughts on my Mattchew post please | ||
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On June 25 2012 15:07 Mattchew wrote: Can I say "the weekend happened" (work into happy hour into NYC debauchery friday, graduation BBQ party saturday, NY Red Bulls game sunday)? Also, I fail to see how my thoughts on Rastaban are bad? Those reasons help push a scum agenda while showing a fear of posting in the thread. I have known many a player who is wishy-washy and posting a bad case that turned out to be town. Your case didn't really contribute at all. I am still null on Rastaban. I can't work out if he is dumb town or mafia. He has said some blatantly scummy things but he has been open and transparent about them. He has also been passionate about the game which indicates he wants to contribute. The case may be bad but he is clearly intent on pushing it. Anyway, maybe I was a little harsh on you for that. Prplhz's post on zeph came at a really suspicious time. He may as well have asked for a no-lynch because if his case had actually gained traction, thats what would of occurred considering the time and players available. This is terrible, terrible reasoning. You are basically giving Prpl free licence to tunnel until the lynch and not consider other candidates. It's not like Prpl showed any intention of changing his vote. I answered Snarfs question because it was asked of me. The discussion I believe had shifted away from Marv and he was no longer a lynch candidate. I don't believe that posting anything further about Marv would have helped town at that time. I will however be posting more on him in the next 24 hours while we discuss lynch candidates. I look forward to it. I am attempting to post more concisely and be less annoying this game then usual due to complaints in past games. When I wake up tomorrow I want to do a big post explaining my scum reads. You may all hold me accountable for doing so and the reads that I present. For now I am going to sleep after a long weekend. Don't listen to the naysayers, I like your crazy style. Same as VE. It makes the thread interesting to read and it provides controversial points to consider. It forces a reaction which helps determine not only your alignment but others as well. + Show Spoiler [PS] + If I understand your post correctly, congrats on the graduation! Sleep well | ||
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On June 25 2012 15:18 wherebugsgo wrote: xsksc replaces von Klaust II. Discussion about the replacement will take postgame. Boo! I liked von Klaust Just kidding I like xsksc too, if you're town that is. Just in case people think I like talking to myself, I don't. But there is no-one around and I get lonely when I can't talk to people. So here you are reading my words that primarily written for me. Bored? Well serves you right for not being here. Come on town, pull your socks up and lets kill the bastards already! | ||
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Marv how is VEs response any different to your response to Mattchews question? | ||
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On June 26 2012 07:38 marvellosity wrote: No, because he shit up the thread and just look at prplhz's response - he said 'stop all this shit' or whatever. So instead of reading and responding to my case, he just saw me and VE arguing, when I was trying to present a case. Clearly then he was successful in deflecting. And again now you're asking me about this, and you haven't actually commented on my case at all. Proof is in the pudding of how things are turning out. I have just gotten into work, so give me a moment to actually read your case thoroughly and provide useful insight rather than just a fluff response You deflected as well remember. The only difference is that VE and I kept at you to ensure you couldn't just drop it. VE has since responded so that point is now moot. All I am trying to point out is that hiding behind "A scum marvel is too smart to not take time to answer Mattchew" is exactly the same as saying "A scum VE is too smart to not take time to respond to Marvels' case". It is not a defense and my thoughts on you are not entirely based on your decision not to answer, it is the manner and subsequent indignation you displayed, that we were somehow being ridiculous is pressing you for your response. I'll give my thoughts on your case and then present my thoughts on you. I have 30 pages of relevant quotes to sift through so it may take some time. | ||
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On June 26 2012 00:33 marvellosity wrote: [--snip] Ok, so we've established he thinks I'm totes amazing scummer. It makes absolutely no sense to me how he thinks someone as good at scumplay as I am would get myself into this situation. xscsc summarised it quite nicely: This is the crux of it, and xcksc hasn't even seen my scumplay, but he understands. Yet VE who saw me trash town in LIV and LV as scum does not see it. So a scum marv would put effort into answering the question whereas a town marv wouldn't because it draws attention. I have come to realise that your initial response is probably a null tell but it certainly isn't a town tell. Anyway, I will get to this when I present my case but this has no indication on VE's alignment. He simply disagrees. This doesn't add up. Clearly sidestepping Matt's question WAS NOT the correct scumplay. Just look at what's happened. There's a mental disconnect going on. I thought this was your plan. Weren't you the one who deliberately wanted to look scummy so you could draw reactions from people? You are the one being contradictory, VE is paying you a compliment. The way I read it, he is saying that you could make this play as scum and possibly get away with it. You missed the day 1 lynch, so far he has been correct. You took a risk (I think an accidental one) and VE called you on it. First paragraph is just trite, it says nothing. He's just explaining the wincon for a townie and scummer. I commented before on the 2nd part. Calling me out for finding him scummy, calling himself town. It's manipulative. Yeah it is a shitty response but it is a typical VE response. How exactly is it manipulative? He is dismissing your case and claiming town, I doubt anyone is going to go "Oh look at that, VE is saying he is town, well I better not vote for him". You could call it spamming the thread to hide your case, but manipulative? When I accused him before, I wasn't calling him scum because I was town. I'd said I had the perspective of 100% knowing I was town that others did not. I simply did not say he was scum because he was accusing me. Twisted my words. Here is what you presented as your case when I asked for it yesterday On June 23 2012 07:07 marvellosity wrote: I don't know how to push my VE read because a lot of it is based on the fact that I know my alignment 100% and no-one else does. Basically he picked up on something that shouldn't have been *that* important, and crusaded/tunneled on it ad infinitum. He hasn't paused to look for the alternative explanation, he's just blindly going down the same alley. I think a townplaying VE would be more actively considering the idea that I was town rather than pushing me like he is. Gonna get a bit egotistical for a minute - it feels like he's trying to get rid of me at an opportune moment on the back of something that he's exploded out of proportion. I got tunneled into oblivion by Blazinghand in LI and I get a totally different feeling about it now. There I had a clear townread on BH because of the nature of it. Every time I see VE post I see him try to twist my words a little. I said this about meapak in bang bang - it's either weak ass townie play or it's scummy play, and I think it's scummy play. So yes, it was not an OMGUS. You were saying he decided to tunnel you for a small reason and this is scummy because you know you are town. OMGUS is not the right word but the intention is similar. Your case against him makes no sense if we don't know you're town. You even say that in your first line. The point of twisting your words would be to discredit your case and make you look scummy, correct? Well you discredited your own case with your own words and I found you scummy for my own reasons. Minor point against VE here. Maybe you can expand on how his twisting of your words was making you look more scummy than him straight up calling you scum. On the day 1 lynch: Realising he's not gonna get me through, he turns his attention to Zentor. Subsequently: This is where it all gets odd. He doesn't want to lynch Zentor, and lists 3 other people. Who doesn't he name? The other leading candidiate, rastaban. He is realistically the only alternative, but nothing. Compare - slOosh was trying really hard to get people to switch from Zentor to rastaban, but VE? nothing. This is a good point. One that could easily be made against me as well. Let's see if VE ever talks about rastaban: This is it. Nothing else. He never lets us know what he thinks of the alternative lynch candidate, despite promising to, and despite saying he didn't want to lynch Zentor. It's a half-assed, not-real attempt. True. So you are thinking of a rastaban + VE scum team then? Right, so we have a VE who promised to post about Rastaban and didn't. He offered to push a Zephirdd lynch but didn't. This is your strongest point I feel. I also feel like his pushing of prplhz is a sham. He came straight from LV where two townies pushed hard for a policy lynch on a player they disliked. He should know this isn't a scumtell. But it looks good to push someone on wanting a policy lynch like that, doesn't it? He pushed him early and then backed way off. I don't think he wants to lynch Prpl today. It looked like a pressure play to me to ensure that prpl contributes. He voted for prpl really early and never voted for him again. He mentions him as the last person on his list of possible lynches which I guess supports your point but it is weak at best. Conclusion: All his scumhunting is a sham. He knows and states I'm an excellent scum player, but somehow then thinks I would come into this game as scum and play scummily. He twists my words. He never talks about rastaban despite promising to, despite saying he didn't want to lynch Zentor and rastaban being the main alternative. In fact he never pushes any alternative. Pushes prplhz because it's an easy thing to do. I think VE is scum (or SK :D) Ultimately VE has tunnelled you hard this game so your case has to be presented in that light (as does his). I don't agree with your premise that you are too good at scum to make this play (it is possible it was a deliberate play that got out of hand. Hell you even suggested that.) Yes he twisted your words but you need to expand on the effect of this because he was outright calling you scum. I agree his evasiveness around Rastaban is bad but he has since explained he was posting from his phone. I know weekends get busy, mine did too and it forced me to not have the time to comment on everything. Given the rest of his play I am giving him the benefit of the doubt though I can understand if you don't. | ||
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On June 25 2012 21:09 marvellosity wrote: Don't understand this line of reasoning at all. Just seems completely naive. OK still working on my case on you and I am still confused. Marv if you are scum then congratulations on giving more grey hair in the last few days than in my previous 27 years on this earth. Some of you have missed my reasoning for this post. Since we had two day posts with different night actions I wanted to see if I could glean some information from reactions between those two posts. Remember scum and the SK would be expecting night kills. If I was an SK and my shot didn't go through I would know I had been roleblocked but with no notification. Hence I would be completely confused, expecially given the shot was likely Zephirdd (explained previously). So I would have to assume that either the host got the night stuff mixed up, or they forgot to send me my PM, or I don't get a notification of a blocked hit. There would be a big chance that someone roleblocked me preventing my kill and that could be town or mafia, so coming out and saying anything about the SK would be risky. Especially immediately after the night. No I would expect the SK to be much more cautious after possibly being blocked, hence my statement. It doesn't matter since they are both dead but if they were alive, it would be a nice little bit of info to store away. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler [Relevant Marvellosity Quotes] + On June 22 2012 07:19 marvellosity wrote: well, that part of the figuring out bit I thought I'd leave to you. On June 22 2012 07:29 marvellosity wrote: I like this question a lot. I think there are a couple of possible tells. But tell me what you think first. On June 22 2012 07:31 VisceraEyes wrote: The point of the self-evaluation was to see if you left anything out - obviously we can go and look for ourselves Marv, and we'll have our own opinion...but for you to turn the question around and ask for his answer first is incredibly scummy and immediately forces me to not trust you. On June 22 2012 07:32 marvellosity wrote: lol, ok dear. If people could look for themselves, then maybe just one person in the whole of LV and the obsQT might have had a tingling suspicion, no? No. On June 22 2012 07:34 marvellosity wrote: here's a clue count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat compare to current situation profit On June 22 2012 07:42 marvellosity wrote: not policy lynching zentor, he's posted vaguely sensibly in more recent times On June 22 2012 08:40 Probulous wrote: Fair enough, I forgot who I was asking. You did back off Marv pretty quickly though. Why? I mean this is terrible and you pointed it out He still hasn't responded adequately. He is around note But is he isn't bothering to actually answer Mattchew's question. So yeah, why the let up? Marv, I want that alimony! On June 22 2012 08:44 marvellosity wrote: Probey, you'll have to get in touch with my lawyer. And I have at least partly answered the question, you're just not on the ball enough to have worked it out yet. On June 22 2012 08:51 VisceraEyes wrote: Yeah let's lynch marv. Prob you down? ##Vote: marvellosity Hubris does NOT become you sir. On June 22 2012 08:54 Probulous wrote: Why are you so cryptic? It's your job to prove you're town so you should want to provide information to us. ##Vote marvellosity This time it's personal @Mattchew, you have nothing to say On June 22 2012 08:55 marvellosity wrote: it's not cryptic, it's blindingly fucking obvious. jesus christ On June 22 2012 09:20 VisceraEyes wrote: :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Anyways look what I found guys! This was his defense in LV, the Zim themed large we were just in. Marv DOMINATED that game as scum, and look at what his first act of the game was (upon replacing in)! It was using his "meta" as a personalized defense against my accusations. Look at his defense this game! Oddly enough, it's a personalized "meta" defense again! Marv, your response? On June 22 2012 09:23 marvellosity wrote: I'm supposed to talk about someone else in my defence? And in the nested quote it states quite clearly there weren't any accusations... that's twice this game now you've misrepresented something, wilfully or not. i'm watching you On June 22 2012 09:34 VisceraEyes wrote: STOP TALKING ABOUT MILLER CLAIMS Now, Marv, my accusation was that you were being defensive when I wasn't attacking you. That's the accusation. I accused you of being overly defensive. What part about that is 'misrepresenting' what happened in that game? On June 22 2012 09:37 VisceraEyes wrote: Bolded is a strawman argument that was designed to discredit my accusations. Italicized shows MARV blatantly misrepresenting the situation, as the nested quote WAS the accusation. He's trying to use the fact that the context is not there to fool everyone, but don't worry guys...VE is here. Underlined is an empty accusation with no evidence and an empty threat. Keep on watchin Marv, I'm sure you'll see something you like.  On June 22 2012 09:38 marvellosity wrote: what are you talking about? in LV I was being defensive when you weren't actually attacking me? so what? you are attacking me here, so what's that got to do with this game? On June 22 2012 09:42 marvellosity wrote: This is the second misrepresentation. Trying to compare a 'defence' in a game where I wasn't accused to my defence this game where I am in fact accused First misrepresentation: I clearly said what I was referring to in Magic and yet you try to pretend that you went and looked and didn't find anything. Despite the fact I said exactly what I was referring to. On June 22 2012 09:44 VisceraEyes wrote: Marv, I find myself to be terribly entertaining, so you're going to have to surround that statement with some sort of context if you want me to understand what you mean. Now, my argument isn't about you defending yourself for the same reason. My argument is that you're defending yourself in the same fashion...using meta. You're encouraging everyone to leave the thread and go read other games. Why? On June 22 2012 09:46 marvellosity wrote: one was a defence, one was not. do you see yet? i didn't encourage people to leave the thread to read other games. i said i never said anything scummy in LV and I pointed out explicitly the scummy thing I was pressured for in magic. the whole original question was on meta, and now you're pushing me for defending on meta? really? On June 22 2012 09:47 VisceraEyes wrote: I "pretend" that I went and didn't find anything? I went and looked and I said EXACTLY what I found. I don't care about you wanting to shoot NT, nothing similar has happened this game to compare it to. When I went back, I found what I was looking for - you acting like a townie. You haven't done that this game. When I went and looked at your scum game, I found something there too - you defending yourself needlessly with meta. You HAVE done that this game. These aren't misrepresentations, they're observations I'm making. If you don't like it, STOP TELLING PEOPLE TO GO READ YOUR PREVIOUS GAMES. On June 22 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: I think he's pushing me dodgily. Haven't worked out if it's scummy or VE just being VE yet. On June 22 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote: I've quite clearly stated I am not, stop it. The similar thing, VE, is that I wasn't afraid of saying something that was scummy in that game. In this game, unless you underestimate me which I think you do not, you should be aware that I know making a sidestep to Mattchew's question could be viewed scummily, and I'd avoid it like the fucking plague if I were scum. On June 22 2012 09:52 marvellosity wrote: Don't be an idiot. Why would I let myself in for this (fairly predictable, even if how long and hard it has continued was not) when I didn't have to? Use your noggin. On June 22 2012 09:54 VisceraEyes wrote: See, the funny part is that you could ask yourself the same question. Why would you put yourself in this situation as town? It doesn't make any fucking sense. On June 22 2012 09:56 marvellosity wrote: a) because i'm unafraid b) because i get information from who and how i'm pushed On June 22 2012 09:58 Probulous wrote: See here is what I don't understand.
Why haven't you answered the original question? You admitted it's a good question, you claim VE is misrepresenting you but isn't scum so surely the best way to clear your name would be to outline exactly what you intended when you briefly referenced those games. I mean you seem to be saying that VE is mistaken but don't bother to actually take the time to thorughly correct the mistake. Why? Because you don't want to answer the question. Townies want to provide data and clarity and you just wanted to move onto other things. Has Matt just left the thread then? >< On June 22 2012 10:02 Probulous wrote: So by not answering his question you were proving you're town? On June 22 2012 10:05 marvellosity wrote: ok, VE. you're top of the pile ^^ Yeah Prob. After 2 pages discussing the same thing I'm doing a bang up job of moving on to other things. What I was alluding to is further up on this page ^ "The similar thing, VE, is that I wasn't afraid of saying something that was scummy in that game. In this game, unless you underestimate me which I think you do not, you should be aware that I know making a sidestep to Mattchew's question could be viewed scummily, and I'd avoid it like the fucking plague if I were scum." re: 5) - just because i find something suspicious, doesn't mean I leap into thinking someone is scum. it means it's marked down, to be accrued or otherwise with further evidence. On June 22 2012 10:17 Probulous wrote: 1) You proactively ask people to question you so you can prove your alignment. 2) Then you dilberately obfuscate and avoid answering the question 3)You explain that this was not a mistake but instead part of an elaborate plan to do something no scum would do and so therefore prove you are town If you are town, you are saying that you deliberately avoided answering Mattchew to cause a shitstorm to prove you're town? You don't say it was a mistake, or a joke but rather a calculated plan. You give yourself too little credit Marv. I think you're scum who tried to joke off a difficult question and didn't expect people to latch onto it. Now you are backpedalling as fast as you can. On June 22 2012 10:19 marvellosity wrote: wrong way of looking at it Prob if I were scum I'd have thought more before answering matt's question. even if this conversation has been quite interesting On June 22 2012 10:24 marvellosity wrote: Depends what you classify as a mistake, really. I'm not really unhappy with the conversation it's caused. I'll call it a mistake if I get lynched, which shouldn't happen On June 22 2012 10:37 VisceraEyes wrote: Wait wait. This is his plan. His plan is to do something so oblique and scummy that I tunnel him to death. It's my meta, and I can depend on TL to not listen to me when I tunnel. Prob, this was part of the plan. What do we do now that we've figured it out though? On June 22 2012 13:42 Mattchew wrote: I dislike this answer greatly. The entire reason I asked was because of how strong your scum play has been recently, and that seemingly no-one (especially in this game) could finger you as scum. I was looking for an answer that would leave me with things to hold you accountable for. Instead, you dodge the question completely. I don't like your grasping at straws to use "im smarter than doing something so scummy" as a defense. If you knew it would look scummy, why would you do it? It serves no town purpose to act willfully scummy. Off to another game making me not want to play with you again. Seriously you /outted which is why I stayed in this game ugh. Is this your first game? Cause only noobs who know nothing about hunting scum say shit like this. People find day 1 scum all the time. We have no counter-claim to his medic claim. I don't think we can lynch him yet because of this. I have seen recent posts about prpl.. i will read his filter and context now and post about that in a little bit On June 22 2012 19:17 marvellosity wrote: lol love risk's posts, short and to the point Since you asked so nicely... I'm not really sure. I'm more careful as scum. Don't get myself into situations like these I try to play similarly as scum as to town, so meh. More carefree with my thoughts as town I guess.I still think VE is dodgy. Probably overestimating him as usual, but I feel like he should have been able to get a better grasp on me than this, and it makes me suspicious that he hasn't. Don't really blame Probulous so much. Not particularly moved by the pressure on slOosh, from what I've seen of him he's usually cautious like this, especially on day 1. Unsure where to place Zeph because of his dumb posting on millers, will wait for further content. Lack of relevancy at the moment. Somewhat suspicious because of the number of posts --> 0 content. Zentor is abdicating responsibility for providing reads until tomorrow which isn't acceptable. It feels like he's trying to whimper his way into day 2. Response to pressure pretty poor (i momentarily took off my hypocrite hat). At the moment I would favour him to be lynched. On June 22 2012 22:30 vonKlaust II wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 22 2012 09:54 VisceraEyes wrote: See, the funny part is that you could ask yourself the same question. Why would you put yourself in this situation as town? It doesn't make any fucking sense. On June 22 2012 09:56 marvellosity wrote: a) because i'm unafraid b) because i get information from who and how i'm pushed On June 22 2012 19:17 marvellosity wrote: Since you asked so nicely... I'm not really sure. I'm more careful as scum. Don't get myself into situations like these I try to play similarly as scum as to town, so meh. More carefree with my thoughts as town I guess.I don't really like this play from Marv. One of the textbooks examples of trying to separate scum from town is to try to figure out how they post. If they are very deliberate and seem a little scared of posting it could mean they are more likely to be mafia, and if they seem more spontaneous and carefree in their posting then it could mean they are more likely to be town. Normally this is far from a proper clue, more just something to keep in back of your mind, but the way Marv keeps saying that he is just so darn carefree with posting makes me spider sense tingle. It also fits conveniently well with his defence. + Show Spoiler + On June 22 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote: I've quite clearly stated I am not, stop it. The similar thing, VE, is that I wasn't afraid of saying something that was scummy in that game. In this game, unless you underestimate me which I think you do not, you should be aware that I know making a sidestep to Mattchew's question could be viewed scummily, and I'd avoid it like the fucking plague if I were scum. This one is the same thing, just a little more tricky. He's pretty much saying: If I was scum, I would be much more careful in my play and since I'm not careful in my play it hints to me being town. The same thing over again. I'm carefree - therefore I'm town. Other than this I pretty much agree with this ---> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15183090 <--- post which I thought was excellent and got this ---> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15183132 <--- very underwhelming answer. And this also quite excellent post ---> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15183197 <--- which got an equally underwhelming reply ---> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15183210 <--- Eeeeeasy now buddy! We're all just friends here OK? Also, today is midsummer celebration which is one of the biggest holidays here in Schwedenland so It's not impossible that I won't post anything more today. Happy midsummer! On June 22 2012 22:33 marvellosity wrote: when someone is specifically asking me about my meta and my style of posting, what would you rather I said? On June 22 2012 22:49 vonKlaust II wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 22 2012 09:54 VisceraEyes wrote: See, the funny part is that you could ask yourself the same question. Why would you put yourself in this situation as town? It doesn't make any fucking sense. On June 22 2012 09:56 marvellosity wrote: a) because i'm unafraid b) because i get information from who and how i'm pushed This was where you started going on about being carefree as town. This had nothing to do VE asking you for your meta as town/scum. He just asked you why you put yourself in this situation in the first place if you know that it would put you at risk. And not only did it start all the talk about being care free. It's also nonsensical. It doesn't matter how afraid our not you are, putting yourself in a bad situation is BAD. Making people think you are scum because you wanted to "get information from who and how you're pushed" is not worth the trade of making people suspicious of you and putting the focus on you and hence taking focus off others. And sure, you kinda answered the question but I don't think that "I play more care free as town" really counts as a proper answer. Escpecially not after all that slithering. Most people are more careful as scum and your answer pretty much doesn't say anything about your actuall play. On June 22 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote: That's because my scumplay is so fucking awesome no-one ever suspects me, and so I have very few tells to differentiate my play (as far as I'm aware!). I agree it wasn't ideal and if I had my time again I'd just answer the question the first time. Also don't blame me for taking the focus off others. I didn't force you to make your entire post about me, you could have commented on anything else, yet you chose not to. On June 22 2012 23:03 vonKlaust II wrote: Ofc i would blame you for taking the focus from the real scum if you would happen to flip town. Do you expect us to just ignore the weird stuff you've been writing? Yes, I chose to because I think you have been playing scummy, and you aknowledge that yourself in this post. 1. You agree with the statement that sidestepping Mattchews question could be viewed as scummy. 2. You would avoid doing that as scum i.e. it would point to you being scum. You agree both that it would seem scummy and that it actually is scummy. Still you did it. It doesn't make point from any perspecive and makes me think you're just trying to fill holes you made with bad play. On June 22 2012 23:05 marvellosity wrote: I didn't make a conscious decision to go 'lol gonna appear scummy now'. I read Matt's post and made a reply to it without giving it that much thought. The point being I give every post I make as scum due thought. On June 22 2012 23:06 vonKlaust II wrote: I think this says it all. On June 22 2012 23:13 vonKlaust II wrote: You start of saying that you think that there are "A couple of possible tells" that could be used against you. Then you keep saying that you don't know any differences between your scum and town play. Then you claim that there are very few of them as far as you are aware. I interpret this post. As saying that you don't know anything about what differentiates your scumplay and your townplay. I know you say "very few" and that could indicate that you know of a few, but since you haven't actually posted what those would be and for the fact that you have once and once again given very diffuse answers about your scum and town play(i.e. "I play more carefree as town) I don't think that would be a proper interpretation. I interprate this as two statements about what you know about your play that is contrary to one another. On June 22 2012 23:17 marvellosity wrote: how is 'very few' different from 'a couple'? I've posted my little heart out on what they are/might be (how i'm more impulsive as town, less scummy as scum) and yet you find these answeres unacceptable. From one of the forum's most prolific observers in LV So basically you attack me for not posting an answer that you find acceptable even though it is true: And now you attack me for saying I have very few differences. Right, I have very few differences, and having elaborated on the ones that exist, you don't like them. Keep trying On June 23 2012 00:21 VisceraEyes wrote: There are differences marv. For instance, townMarv is interested in finding scum. scumMarv is interested in lynching townies. Also, both townMarv and scumMarv are good enough to realize that I'm very obviously town in this game, so the fact that you're calling me "dodgy" still (not scummy, not scum, not suspicious, not suspect....."dodgy") just confirms that you're not interested in finding scum today. For that, you're gonna die friend. Sorry. *shrug* On June 23 2012 00:38 marvellosity wrote: This is insidious, confirming/calling yourself as town play, while calling anyone who is suspicious of you scummy. Buddy 'friend' 'sorry' justification at the end. Extremely weak. That is not town play. "Also both townVE and scumVE are good enough to realise that my defence is clearly townie this game, so the fact that you persist in tunneling me just confirms you're not interested in finding scum today. For that, you're gonna die friend. Sorry. *shrug*" SEE WHAT I DID THAR On June 23 2012 04:48 VisceraEyes wrote: Marv do you think I'm scum? Because your last post is very sarcastic and I honestly can't tell what you're actually thinking. This is what I'm talking about when I say you're not playing a townie game this game sir. Obviously, I still love where my vote is, and I encourage anyone who hasn't to go read over Marv's filter and join me in lynching him for the good of the town! On June 23 2012 07:01 marvellosity wrote: Yep, you're currently my #1 read re: rastaban - he posted rather fluffily in Bang bang and gonzaw caught him being flippity floppity about him (i agreed with gonzaw's case in hindsight... having shot him first of course :/) he was a scumread for me then but as the game went on he became more townie. Not really comfortable lynching him at this stage On June 23 2012 07:07 marvellosity wrote: I don't know how to push my VE read because a lot of it is based on the fact that I know my alignment 100% and no-one else does. Basically he picked up on something that shouldn't have been *that* important, and crusaded/tunneled on it ad infinitum. He hasn't paused to look for the alternative explanation, he's just blindly going down the same alley. I think a townplaying VE would be more actively considering the idea that I was town rather than pushing me like he is. Gonna get a bit egotistical for a minute - it feels like he's trying to get rid of me at an opportune moment on the back of something that he's exploded out of proportion. I got tunneled into oblivion by Blazinghand in LI and I get a totally different feeling about it now. There I had a clear townread on BH because of the nature of it. Every time I see VE post I see him try to twist my words a little. I said this about meapak in bang bang - it's either weak ass townie play or it's scummy play, and I think it's scummy play. On June 23 2012 07:11 VisceraEyes wrote: Having a preference for the lynch is not the same as tunneling into oblivion. Just thought I'd throw that out there. I'm looking at other people, and you're presently more scummy than any of them by far Marvel. The crux of your case, as you stated it, is "that it's based on the fact that I know my alignment 100% and no-one else does." LOL Like, honestly. Marvel is much better than this. He knows that me targeting him if he's town does not automatically make me scum. This is literally the DEFINITION of OMGUS. He literally just said "I know I'm town, so because VE is targeting me, he's scum" and has fabricated some kind of fantasy to justify calling me such. Marv is definitely my preference for lynch. He knows better. He's acting like he doesn't, but he does. On June 23 2012 07:13 marvellosity wrote: No, see you're doing it again, you're misrepresenting what I'm saying. I'm clearly saying that the manner you've gone about going after me is what I find bad, not the fact taht you've gone after me. For example Probulous I see only honest motivations logically explained. This post is once again you twisting what I'm saying, and hopefully people can see this. Try considering I'm town, yes? On June 23 2012 07:14 marvellosity wrote: like, where did I say the fact I was town and therefore you are targetting makes me scum? I said that I have the unique perspective of knowing my alignment where others do not. Just that subtle little twisting of my words into negative connotations. On June 23 2012 07:18 VisceraEyes wrote: I have marvel, you're not giving me any other outs here. You're scummy as fuck, there's nothing I can do about that. Your response to Mattchew was terrible. You didn't correct that and actually answer his question, you defended how terrible it was. When I've accused you, you've laughed it off like "lol oh VE". It's called discrediting Marvel, and it's fucking scummy. I've explained why I find you scummy, logically. I've tried considering that you're town, but I can't think of a single reason why you'd act the way you are. Like, you know me. You know my town play, and you KNOW this is it. I'm trying to figure shit out, and you're just attempting to discredit it by calling it "tunneling to oblivion" and dismissing everything I'm saying. That's fucking SCUMMY SIR! You haven't commented at ALL on my case on prplhz, do you realize this? I've spent a fair amount of time discussing prplhz, but are you interested in looking? Ya? No? You haven't mentioned it - and for someone saying that all I'm doing is tunneling you "ad infinitium", I'd think you'd be interested in ANYTHING I say that isn't about you. But nope, you're content to just shovel shit my way and it's FUCKING SCUMMY SIR. So whatever, call it tunneling. I prefer you for lynch. Deal with it. I still like you, I just really really dislike your play this game. I think you're scum. Hang, bro. On June 23 2012 07:27 Probulous wrote: Hi guys. Just woke up and wow VE and Marv Keep your panties on. Marv, where is that scum hunting you promised me? Put together your case on VE and let us decide. Shouting and insulting each other gets us nowhere. On June 23 2012 07:27 marvellosity wrote: I already put my thoughts down on VE. On June 23 2012 07:32 marvellosity wrote: that's because for once you need to learn to put your emotions to one side, which you're completely failing to do here On June 23 2012 07:36 marvellosity wrote: fuck you're probably town On June 23 2012 07:41 marvellosity wrote: Snarfs, I'd like to clarify - 1) i think useful information is to be had from the furore that was caused 2) i'd still not prefer for it to have been the case, because actually i don't revel in stuff like this On June 23 2012 07:58 marvellosity wrote: *nonaggression pact* why risk over zentor? On June 23 2012 08:17 marvellosity wrote: alright, but if we put me aside for a moment would you rather have risk or zentor with you day 2 to smoke out scum? On June 23 2012 08:26 VisceraEyes wrote: @marv First of all, we weren't even talking about you so I don't know where the "put me aside for a moment" came from. Secondly, I've already answered the question you just asked me. You even questioned me on it - so what was the point of that post? I prefer a risk.nuke lynch to a Zentor lynch if we're talking about lynching lurkers. On June 23 2012 18:07 marvellosity wrote: Also, Zephirdd, don't be ridiculous. Especially as it made me back down from my read on VE. On June 24 2012 03:00 marvellosity wrote: VE, I need to put my mind at rest. Other than LI, could you please tell me a couple of scum games you've played recently? On June 24 2012 04:54 VisceraEyes wrote: Marv do your own meta research. On June 24 2012 05:31 marvellosity wrote: tell me what you think of rastban VE On June 24 2012 05:46 marvellosity wrote: all i see on other games is that late vote switches are almost always completely disastrous. I don't have high confidence in any of rastaban/zentor/zephirdd who i'd want to be lynching into. I don't see what vote switching would achieve at this stage. pfft On June 25 2012 08:34 marvellosity wrote: just gonna assume for now mafia shot VE and the jailer saved him by jailing him On June 25 2012 08:41 marvellosity wrote: huh? I came to the conclusion eventually VE was probably town, and other people in the thread have said VE was playing pro town and I was suspicious for being suspicious of him. Fairly obvious why mafia would shoot him thusly don't understand the final question On June 25 2012 09:31 marvellosity wrote: why don't you ask questions that make sense the point was that if several people had expressed a townread on arguably the strongest scumhunter in the game, then assuming he was both shot and saved isn't very much of a stretch On June 25 2012 09:42 Probulous wrote: He's clearly putting together his case on me. I would if I was in his position. I haven't played well over the weekend and I know it. Oh well, we can see what he comes up with. Why did you change your read on VE? On June 25 2012 09:44 marvellosity wrote: his emotion while arguing with me seemed spontaneous and not faked | ||
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On June 26 2012 09:09 marvellosity wrote: As I've clarified before, I should have just answered the question straight the first time, but I didn't. Having done that, I could make the best of the situation by assessing the responses to it. It wasn't me purposefully being scummy. I didn't take a risk, your view of the event is simply incorrect. How it happened is what I said in 1) in my VE defence. Were you surprised by the question? | ||
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On June 26 2012 10:01 marvellosity wrote: As much as any particular question is surprising I guess? ROFL, you should be a politician man. You know what I mean when I ask that question. I thik you responded rashly without taking the time to think about your answer. Is this true? | ||
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On June 26 2012 10:16 marvellosity wrote: There's not a lot else I can say on the matter by this stage. If that's really enough to lynch me then whatever. Yeah VE is right. The problem I have is that I can't really add anything to what I have said already and that doesn't seem to be enough. I mean I can explain it in a different way but the facts are the same and they weren't enough yesterday and no-one seems to be changing their mind today. Do you guys want me to complete this monster or should I give up for now and look elsewhere? VE, prpl, your thoughts on this. | ||
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Btw, WHERE THE FUCK IS EVERYONE???? | ||
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marvellosity Marvel started this game in an open manner by offering to answer any question asked of him but he was suprised by Mattchew's question and responded rashly. This in itself is not a scum tell, an off balance townie could do the same. But his subsequent insistence on not responding is damning in my eyes. + Show Spoiler [Marvs initial reaction] + On June 22 2012 07:19 marvellosity wrote: well, that part of the figuring out bit I thought I'd leave to you. On June 22 2012 07:29 marvellosity wrote: I like this question a lot. I think there are a couple of possible tells. But tell me what you think first. On June 22 2012 07:31 VisceraEyes wrote: The point of the self-evaluation was to see if you left anything out - obviously we can go and look for ourselves Marv, and we'll have our own opinion...but for you to turn the question around and ask for his answer first is incredibly scummy and immediately forces me to not trust you. On June 22 2012 07:32 marvellosity wrote: lol, ok dear. If people could look for themselves, then maybe just one person in the whole of LV and the obsQT might have had a tingling suspicion, no? No. On June 22 2012 07:34 marvellosity wrote: count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat compare to current situation profit This is the key quote and one I keep coming back to. He has turned his initial confused response into a positive proof he is town. Why? This was very early day 1, VE had labelled him scum but VE always does this early and changes his position regularly. The simplest way to clear your name would be actually answer the question. Instead he uses the fact that he is acting scummy to try and clear his name, thus avoiding the work. Again, I can see a flustered scum here not sure how to respond so early in the game to this kind of pressure. So he decides to try and use that pressure to clear his name rather than doing the hard work and answer the question. It isn't easy playing a different meta than you are used to so if he could deflect the question he could continue to play his normal game. I am not marvellosity so I can't say whether he would respond the same way if he were scum or if he were scum, simply because I think he was caught off guard. All I can do is compare him to what I would expect a town or scum would do. I would expect a townie to say something like "Shit that's a hard question, give me some time to think about it" if he was thrown off balance. + Show Spoiler [My first response to Marv] + On June 22 2012 08:40 Probulous wrote: Fair enough, I forgot who I was asking. You did back off Marv pretty quickly though. Why? I mean this is terrible and you pointed it out He still hasn't responded adequately. He is around note But is he isn't bothering to actually answer Mattchew's question. So yeah, why the let up? Marv, I want that alimony! On June 22 2012 08:44 marvellosity wrote: Probey, you'll have to get in touch with my lawyer. And I have at least partly answered the question, you're just not on the ball enough to have worked it out yet. By now he is adamant that he won't respond to the question. It has not become a case of being flustered but a concious decision. When I join in the questioning, he dismisses me. He fobs me off with a "go read the thread" response. This attitude of not wanting to contribute and making others do the work is scummy. It's sarcastic and designed to rile me up. He did a similar thing to VE. Why would you respond in this manner if you were town? The tone is designed to piss people off. Remember marvel has chosen to act this way. He believes that by playing a scummy game he can appear town. That is his whole exlpanation at this point, so if he is scum it makes sense to piss people off. He can create confusion and a massive shitfest which ruins day 1. He clearly doesn't think he will get lynched, he say so later. VE, picks up on the tone issue in his next post. + Show Spoiler [VE] + On June 22 2012 08:51 VisceraEyes wrote: Yeah let's lynch marv. Prob you down? ##Vote: marvellosity Hubris does NOT become you sir. and I point out the ridiculousness of not answering the question + Show Spoiler [Probulous] + On June 22 2012 08:54 Probulous wrote: Why are you so cryptic? It's your job to prove you're town so you should want to provide information to us. ##Vote marvellosity This time it's personal @Mattchew, you have nothing to say By now Marv's play is clear, refuse to answer clearly and then use his scummy play as an excuse. He has already gained two votes which would normally force a townie to actually contribute but he doesn't. Why? because this is his plan. He wants to look scummy and then go "hey look I always look scummy as town". On June 22 2012 08:55 marvellosity wrote: it's not cryptic, it's blindingly fucking obvious. jesus christ Why the indignation here? Why is he is pissed off at both VE and myself for not realising that he is town because he looks like scum. It is a ridiculous premise so of course we want further explanantion. Then VE comes up with the defensive nature of marvel's posting which marvel used as his defense. the way I read this, VE is simply stating that Marv is using his defensive posting as an excuse for palying scummy. + Show Spoiler + On June 22 2012 09:20 VisceraEyes wrote: :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Anyways look what I found guys! This was his defense in LV, the Zim themed large we were just in. Marv DOMINATED that game as scum, and look at what his first act of the game was (upon replacing in)! It was using his "meta" as a personalized defense against my accusations. Look at his defense this game! Oddly enough, it's a personalized "meta" defense again! Marv, your response? On June 22 2012 09:23 marvellosity wrote: I'm supposed to talk about someone else in my defence? And in the nested quote it states quite clearly there weren't any accusations... that's twice this game now you've misrepresented something, wilfully or not. i'm watching you Whether there are accusations or not is irrelevant. The point is you were using your defensive behaviour as a way to prove you're town. We cannot know this is true, there is no way of verifying it. Just because you were defensive in your last townie game does not mean if you are defensive here you are townie. ESPECIALLY if you use that as your defense. Again, surely a townie would just answer the original question clearly and transparently at this point. I mean both VE and myself were "obviously mistaken", but you didn't bother to clear that up did you? No the confusion was good, it was serving its purpose. + Show Spoiler [back and forth] + On June 22 2012 09:42 marvellosity wrote: This is the second misrepresentation. Trying to compare a 'defence' in a game where I wasn't accused to my defence this game where I am in fact accused First misrepresentation: I clearly said what I was referring to in Magic and yet you try to pretend that you went and looked and didn't find anything. Despite the fact I said exactly what I was referring to. On June 22 2012 09:44 VisceraEyes wrote: Marv, I find myself to be terribly entertaining, so you're going to have to surround that statement with some sort of context if you want me to understand what you mean. Now, my argument isn't about you defending yourself for the same reason. My argument is that you're defending yourself in the same fashion...using meta. You're encouraging everyone to leave the thread and go read other games. Why? On June 22 2012 09:46 marvellosity wrote: one was a defence, one was not. do you see yet? i didn't encourage people to leave the thread to read other games. i said i never said anything scummy in LV and I pointed out explicitly the scummy thing I was pressured for in magic. the whole original question was on meta, and now you're pushing me for defending on meta? really? I think VE got sidetracked here. Marv using meta is not a problem. As he states, the question was about meta. The point is that stating that "when you look scummy you are town" is not a useful use of meta. It doesn't answer the question and allows you to just refuse to answer. A useful meta point would be "when I am scum I tend to ..." not when I am scum I look like town. Anyway, I want you to note that he has now created a case against VE based on him being misrepresented twice. This will come up later. This is a pretty good post from VE which is clearer than his previous ones. On June 22 2012 09:47 VisceraEyes wrote: I "pretend" that I went and didn't find anything? I went and looked and I said EXACTLY what I found. I don't care about you wanting to shoot NT, nothing similar has happened this game to compare it to. When I went back, I found what I was looking for - you acting like a townie. You haven't done that this game. When I went and looked at your scum game, I found something there too - you defending yourself needlessly with meta. You HAVE done that this game. These aren't misrepresentations, they're observations I'm making. If you don't like it, STOP TELLING PEOPLE TO GO READ YOUR PREVIOUS GAMES. The point being, answer the original question clearly and transparently if you don't want people to misunderstand your reply. At this point it is clear that marv has achieved a few things. He has the thread focused on him, he looks scummy but is using this to try and prove he is town, he has created some suspicion on VE. So I call him out on it. On June 22 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: Which is a nothing answer. I guess that is fair enough at this point. This next post is another key one.I think he's pushing me dodgily. Haven't worked out if it's scummy or VE just being VE yet. On June 22 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote: I've quite clearly stated I am not, stop it. The similar thing, VE, is that I wasn't afraid of saying something that was scummy in that game. In this game, unless you underestimate me which I think you do not, you should be aware that I know making a sidestep to Mattchew's question could be viewed scummily, and I'd avoid it like the fucking plague if I were scum. On June 22 2012 09:52 marvellosity wrote: Don't be an idiot. Why would I let myself in for this (fairly predictable, even if how long and hard it has continued was not) when I didn't have to? Use your noggin. So now the plan becomes clear. He was caught off guard early and made a response he would not normally make as either town or scum, but here he is saying the he would avoid it like the plague is he were mafia. But apparently not as town? It makes less sense from a town perspective to not answer a straight up question than it does from a mafia point of view. Mafia get away with causing a shitstorm knowing they are unlikely to be lynched. Why? Because he can fall back on his meta showing that he is careful as mafia. On June 22 2012 09:52 marvellosity wrote: Don't be an idiot. Why would I let myself in for this (fairly predictable, even if how long and hard it has continued was not) when I didn't have to? Use your noggin. On June 22 2012 09:54 VisceraEyes wrote: See, the funny part is that you could ask yourself the same question. Why would you put yourself in this situation as town? It doesn't make any fucking sense. On June 22 2012 09:56 marvellosity wrote: a) because i'm unafraid b) because i get information from who and how i'm pushed Here we have the reveal that this was all a townie plan by Marvel to gain information on those pushing him. Really, well what has he gained so far? That VE may or may not be scum...That's it. In the process he has caused the whole thread to be entirely focused on him. Worse he doesn't regret it. He thinks it is a good idea. At this point we have had no other cases presented, no other scumhunting. Nothing. How is that a positive for town? Anyway I outline my position here + Show Spoiler [probulous position] + On June 22 2012 09:58 Probulous wrote: See here is what I don't understand.
Why haven't you answered the original question? You admitted it's a good question, you claim VE is misrepresenting you but isn't scum so surely the best way to clear your name would be to outline exactly what you intended when you briefly referenced those games. I mean you seem to be saying that VE is mistaken but don't bother to actually take the time to thorughly correct the mistake. Why? Because you don't want to answer the question. Townies want to provide data and clarity and you just wanted to move onto other things. Has Matt just left the thread then? >< On June 22 2012 10:17 Probulous wrote: 1) You proactively ask people to question you so you can prove your alignment. 2) Then you dilberately obfuscate and avoid answering the question 3)You explain that this was not a mistake but instead part of an elaborate plan to do something no scum would do and so therefore prove you are town If you are town, you are saying that you deliberately avoided answering Mattchew to cause a shitstorm to prove you're town? You don't say it was a mistake, or a joke but rather a calculated plan. You give yourself too little credit Marv. I think you're scum who tried to joke off a difficult question and didn't expect people to latch onto it. Now you are backpedalling as fast as you can. To which I get this enlightening response On June 22 2012 10:19 marvellosity wrote: wrong way of looking at it Prob if I were scum I'd have thought more before answering matt's question. even if this conversation has been quite interesting WHY? Better yet why would you not do this as town. Especially after everyone starting piling onto you. Saying you are careful as scum is not a perfect defense that excuses you from participating. Note up till now he has provided nothing else. He hasn't pushed a case or done anything of value except defend himself with I am smart as scum so I wouldn't do that. I give you the perfect marvel plan. Play badly and then claim you have perfect scum play so you cannot be scum. TLDR: marvel was caught off guard by Mattchew's question and chose to throw it back to the thread. This in itself could be a town response but when he told us that his scummy behaviour made him town, he hit on a plan to ensure he wasn't lynched. He knew his initial response was inadequate but chose to use his scummy response as a tool to cause confusion and shit up the thread. By never taking the multiples chances he had, to clarify his original position, he ensured that the mess continued for as long as possible. Whenever VE or I pushed him to contribute he could just reply with his meta defense that he cannot be scum because scum would never do this. If we believe that, then we would never lynch anyone. If he had just stated the truth, that he responded rashly and would take the time to provide a proper answer, I would have dropped this case. But his insistence that it takes up as much of Day 1 as possible makes me believe he is mafia. ##Vote marvellosity | ||
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If you have any questions about that post, let me know because no-one has commented on it. @VE, that is my only concern as well. The only motivation I can find is that it causes mayhem and he clearly felt he was never going to get lynched, so why not make the entire first day about him? It gives cover to other scum and I have no doubt that a scum marv would have the balls to pull it off (bad image I know). I also want to know why people are happy voting for him now and not yesterday. | ||
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On June 26 2012 15:07 VisceraEyes wrote: If marv flips SK, it's going to open a whole new can of worms...because scum are able to scumhunt when there's an SK involved in the game - so that means that anyone who's been on marvel's case since early on gets, literally, zero town-cred from marvel's flip. Especially myself. One lynch at a time my good friend. If he is a SK then we have immediately halved night KP. This is good, we cannot guarantee that the SK will shoot scum (last night is a clear example of that). Plus we eliminate one way of us losing. I don't care if people don't give me credit for him flipping SK. I'll continue to scum hunt and find the other scum. Assuming someone is scum because they found the SK is completely nuts. | ||
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Anyway, I will take a closer look and then post my thoughts on Rastaban. He just seems like a confused newb to me but maybe there is something more sinister. He said some stuff that seemed quite townie actually. Let me find it. On June 24 2012 02:51 rastaban wrote: I already posted my thoughts on Zentor, Zephirdd is Pretty likely town, when he asked about by previous games he followed up by looking into the case and linked my previous case so others could review as well, that is a pretty town aligned action in my opinion and his last comment isn't something scum would say. It invites attention, but a townie just wants to find the truth and not be played. I liken it to my statement last game where I jokingly said that ace had rigged the game so that all lurkers were scum. It was half a joke but also out there to get people to think in that direction if things started getting fishy. Why scum would say that about a possible alternative lynch candidate is beyond me. It is a geniune point in Zephirdd's favour which no-one else had brought up. Now we know he flipped green and I doubt mafia shot Zephirdd, so if rastaban is mafia he was defending a townie with new data for no reason. It is small but it put him in the townie basket for me. Plus whilst crazy he has been pretty open about his thoughts. | ||
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On June 26 2012 15:26 VisceraEyes wrote: I mean, slOosh wasn't really emanating blue by any means. On June 23 2012 07:05 slOosh wrote: Hrrmph. Alright I'll just lay out my suspicions. I wanted to hit two birds with one stone by getting reads on other people via their opinions on the matter (since I have too many null reads). Dear townspeople: step it up. If you are blue then scum know it and will snipe you, and we think you are scum and mislynch you. That's the only explanation I can think of at the appalling lack of effort by most of town right now. It's small but I picked up on it so scum could too. Why mention blues specifically here? It shows he was thinking about power roles which makes more sense if he was one. | ||
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On June 26 2012 15:50 xsksc wrote: My read on rasta is far stronger than my read on marv, here's my first thoughts on marv after I replaced in - I mean, what does he gain from the whole exchange, as a scum player? Some WIFOM, and he avoids a rather simple question that I'm sure he was quite capable of answering. What does he gain from it as town - well, not a lot...he used some of VE's play there in his case, the rest just seemed to shit up the thread and bring him lots of negative attention. I could buy SK, perhaps, as his actions don't make sense from either perspective, but I'm not nearly close enough to a scumread on him to warrant a vote. I'm more confident on my rastaman read + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2012 18:21 xsksc wrote: Well, first of all - since my predecessor went AWOL and I don't know what his thought process was, I might as well answer this instead. I'll try to keep this short - I don't like rastaban's play on day 1. His case on risk was pure filler, and this early post definitely stood out to me. I don't like this at all. His opinion is extremely safe - he puts himself in a position where he could safely vote for Marv in the future, but he doesn't actually commit to anything. He doesn't really tell us anything, he just says marv COULD be scum. He also says he feels there's been "too much" discussion on the subject of Marv, but then he goes on to ask Marv some more questions, and he doesn't try to raise another subject, which completely contradicts what he just said. What I find more concerning though, is his vote switch to MrZ. Here he says MrZ is null, and wants to give him more time. So he continues to push his #1 scum-read, fair enough. This is his post between that and his vote-switch. So MrZ has gone from being null to LYNCH HIM, because he changed his mind (changing your mind =/= scum), and the absurd theory that he's scum or a blue because he didn't /out. If he's so sure about his scum-read on risk, he should ABSOLUTELY push it, instead of taking the easy out on MrZ. For reference, I think this is why MrZ changed his mind. + Show Spoiler + On June 23 2012 11:20 Zephirdd wrote: Holy shit. Look at pages 16 and 17. I just solved this game. VE, marv are both scum bussing the F* out of each other. When was the last time this happened? I remember someone saying it was an "OP strategy". Wasn't it Toad/VE doing it? I don't quite remember. Someone said LI, is that it? Either way, if one of them flips scum, I'm sure as hell attacking the other. I thought the initial "attacks" were terrible for both parties, but at this point this all feels fabricated to me. TLDR I don't like Rastaman's day 1 play, I think it's downright scummy. Have you read my marv case? | ||
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On June 26 2012 15:57 VisceraEyes wrote: I mean, that looks more like claiming VT obliquely than a blue-slip...but I see what you're saying. At any rate, I really don't think rastaban is scum and slOosh was pushing rastaban for lynch. What do you make of that? He was pushing Snarfs and me too, I don't see your point? | ||
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No, not really but it is lacking in motivation. | ||
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On June 25 2012 18:21 xsksc wrote: His case on risk was pure filler, and this early post definitely stood out to me. I don't like this at all. His opinion is extremely safe - he puts himself in a position where he could safely vote for Marv in the future, but he doesn't actually commit to anything. He doesn't really tell us anything, he just says marv COULD be scum. I actually don't mind his case on Risk. It is on someone that people were ignoring and shows willingness to add to the information pool. Anyway playing safe early on Day 1 is not unreasonable. slOosh took exactly the same position and was blue so it is hardly alignment indicative. He also says he feels there's been "too much" discussion on the subject of Marv, but then he goes on to ask Marv some more questions, and he doesn't try to raise another subject, which completely contradicts what he just said. Meaning? That he probably isn't thinking straight but hardly that he is scum. What I find more concerning though, is his vote switch to MrZ. Here he says MrZ is null, and wants to give him more time. So he continues to push his #1 scum-read, fair enough. This is his post between that and his vote-switch. So MrZ has gone from being null to LYNCH HIM, because he changed his mind (changing your mind =/= scum), and the absurd theory that he's scum or a blue because he didn't /out. If he's so sure about his scum-read on risk, he should ABSOLUTELY push it, instead of taking the easy out on MrZ. Yes, push your read if you think you can get your target lynched. From what he said, he didn't think he could his target lynched so he gave up. Scummy? Yes, enough to lynch, no. Especially with the crazy blue/red thing. That kind of thinking is almost always coming from town. Why would mafia bother to come up with that stuff? Look at Zephirdd, same crazy, flipped green. Finally, despite what slOosh and you think MrZentor changing his vote like that was scummy. He gave 0 indication as to why he did it other than responding to Zephirdd's bizarre case which he disagreed with? It makes 0 sense and looked to me like an attempt to get rid of his vote. rastaban voted for Zentor based on that is certaily not enough to get him lynched in my books. Compare his reasoning to the other voters and you will see it isn't as bad as you think. | ||
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It's a shitload of WIFOM, but maybe I just have a different opinnion about this than you or VE, but I really don't see why he did NOT stop the mess if he was scum - it was just making him look worse, and he could, like you said, just answer the question and you would have dropped the case. The fact that he didn't just baffles me, but I don't think it makes him scum. Because the mess is good for scum. It is that simple. He was deliberately prolonging the confusion, he even admits to that. He was the entire focus of Day 1 and yet he felt sure enough to say he would not get lynched. If so, then he was intentionally keeping VE and myself from scumhunting elsewhere. This impares town's ability to have a succesful Day 1 lynch. There is no way a townie would do this on purpose, accidentally maybe. Like I said, I think his initial response was geniune, but his choice to prolong the chaos was scum motivated. | ||
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On June 26 2012 16:22 risk.nuke wrote: VE you think rastabans scumread on me is genuine? Anyway I don't know if I want to lynch rastaban because when scum have attacked me with a bad case in the past they generally back of. And townies are more prone to do the kind of moron tunneling rastaban is doing. (Given though, in the past the ones who were townies kept making tunnelingcases and tried to get me lynched. Rastaban is just calling me his #1 which is lazy and seems more mafia-aligned. So is he mafia, town, SK or null? This post says he is tunelling like a townie but he is acting mafia aligned. Clarify please. | ||
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On June 25 2012 10:48 risk.nuke wrote: Well shraft I have feelings about people. I've just been to lazy to share them with you. Also there is the bandwagon to analyze (which I still haven't done - probably have to do tomorrow) before I feel good posting thoughts. This should be interesting, it is afterall tomorrow now. | ||
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On June 23 2012 09:12 risk.nuke wrote: To explain my absence, yesterday was midsummer which is a huge festival and we have some old celebration traditions in Sweden. I intended going to go to sleep now and not make an appearance untill tomorrow morning but since there is already 5+ pages about lurker discussion I thought I might need to dive in tonight and fix this. Be back when I read the thread properly. On June 25 2012 10:48 risk.nuke wrote: Well shraft I have feelings about people. I've just been to lazy to share them with you. Also there is the bandwagon to analyze (which I still haven't done - probably have to do tomorrow) before I feel good posting thoughts. ... And why I never followed up which I said I would. Well read paragraph one again. I'm been to lazy to really look into why I feel like I do about some people. On June 26 2012 16:30 risk.nuke wrote: Leaning mafia but I will be able to tell with alot more certainty tomorrow so I'll try to find someone better to lynch. What is with everything being clearer tomorrow? We don't play this game in the future, we play it now. | ||
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On June 26 2012 16:43 risk.nuke wrote: I can tell you that rastaban genuinely feels like he's been looking for reasons why I am scum rather then looking for clues IF I am scum which is moronic tunneling and is one of the easiest ways for scum to appear like they are doing something OK Risk, what about my Rastaban's townslip regarding Zephirdd? Here I'll think my post for you (Klicky) | ||
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Had a brief skim of the happenings and will take a closer look. Marvel claiming vig is a null thing to me. We can never know if he is telling the truth because scum will just roleblock him so we end up in the same position tomorrow. I even think that you having the same scum read today as yesterday is not relevant to your claim because vigs hardly ever shoot night 1. Changing your read just before the lynch however is an interesting point. I will take another look at the early interactions between you two because VE got quite emotional early in the day before you two got into each other again. Why marv changed his read the second time and not the first is a question I would like answered. If we are going to make a decision n marv, we make it now. Otherwise we waste another day and lose more townies overnight. | ||
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On June 22 2012 08:53 VisceraEyes wrote: LOL OKAY!! On June 22 2012 09:20 VisceraEyes wrote: :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Anyways look what I found guys! On June 22 2012 09:48 VisceraEyes wrote: The original question that was posed you never answered Marv, wtf? You told everyone to go look for themselves! There was a massive argument between VE and marv a fair while after these posts. It was way more intense though so maybe that is why he changed his mind. | ||
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On June 27 2012 08:51 marvellosity wrote: I'm not playing anything. I'm inviting town to have a field day by asking me anything they want, and hopefully it will help give them a townread on me. That's all I want right now. Marv would you consider not shooting VE? I doubt we have enough time to reread your filter and VE's filter and change the whole town situation before the deadline. You're being obstinate again for no reason. I am going to read the game again from the start of day 2 and see what I come up with. If you don't look townie as all hell, then my vote stands. | ||
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On June 27 2012 09:00 risk.nuke wrote: Well we got roleblockers I assume in case he absolutely refuse and we still don't want to lynch him. Who is the we here? Our jailer was shot overnight | ||
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On June 25 2012 09:01 marvellosity wrote: You need to stop doing this. You keep asking people about Probulous and telling him you're suspicious, but all you're willing to say is that you didn't like his Zentor vote oversight. Either make a case or don't. Stop expecting others to answer for you, or telling Probulous he's suspicious with no way to make a defence as you won't actually make a case. Which is correct. Bare in mind I am one of the main people pushing his wagon. He has no need to call out slOosh here. He could let slOosh sow the seeds of doubt and eventually post his case. Clearly someone thought slOsh was town enough to get "saved" (this was before the new day post). If marv is scum, he would know their shot was "blocked" and so know that slOosh has enough town credit to pick up a save. Surely it would make more sense for scum to just keep quiet and hope slOosh pushes his case against me. Marv could then join the wagon and possibly get one his main threats lynched. By calling slOosh out he is forcing him to allow me to defend, which is really townie. Then he responds to my question about notifications etc. I was telling rastaban to take some time to think before he posts because he was spouting illogical nonsense. On June 25 2012 09:19 marvellosity wrote: mm. we need us some wbg action On June 25 2012 09:21 marvellosity wrote: Probulous, no unwarranted prodding rastaban was just saying we currently don't know what ppl are told Marv calls me out to stop prodding rastaban based on the idea that rastaban was just telling people that we don't who was told what. This is wrong and is not why I was prodding him but then marv writes this. On June 25 2012 09:21 marvellosity wrote: oh, he wasn't saying that. i'll be quiet then. Which was completely unprovoked. He went back, reread that section and then corrected himself without me having to ask. Why would scum do this? It is extra effort and doesn't make them look townie. It just clears things up, which is the opposite of what scum want. On June 25 2012 20:54 marvellosity wrote: Tried to find what you were talking about, did not. Care to enlighten? I am still waiting on the answer for this too. If anything it would make sense for slOosh to jail me given his suspicions of me. I can see scum blocking me as well but to assume that slOosh had no reason for blocking me is weird. He never explained this. The only thing that makes sense for me would be that scum would probably not block prpl over me (my guess) but this has nothing to do with slOosh's filter. Anyway, back to marv. This is a question which actively adds information to the thread. I missed it yesterday but it is a really good one and should have been followed up. It could be scum casting doubt on prpl, but marv never follows it up. He never pushed a prpl case. It is just a good stand alone question. Why would scum do this? On June 25 2012 21:40 marvellosity wrote: Indeed. I've replaced in to games a few times, always as town, and never felt the need to justify my predecessor's play or fulfil promises on what they did. I understand you're not me though. Given you're around. What do you make of me? as slOosh died, what do you think of Probulous? Compare this to his earlier post calling slOosh out on his casting of suspicion. When slOosh was alive he wanted to clear the air, now that slOosh is dead he is following up on slOosh's non-case to see if there was something missing. It could be that he wants to push a miss-lynch on me, but if that is the case, why call out slOosh in the first place? It is contradictory in a town way. Plus he has never pushed me as a possible lynch target. I am not going to vote for marv today. His day 1 play caused terrible terrible damage but he has been much more forthright and open since then. | ||
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On June 25 2012 19:49 prplhz wrote: If you guys read the thread then it should be pretty obvious that slOosh jailed me last night. Nevermind, slOosh was suspicious of the both of us. | ||
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On June 27 2012 09:54 rastaban wrote: Hey guys guess what both marvellosity and VisceraEyes have in common! + Show Spoiler + HINT: On June 27 2012 08:13 marvellosity wrote: you shouldn't lynch me because i'm town. and fingers crossed my vigi shot should mostly confirm me as town and mafia will have to kill me off at some point. and hopefully if i am alive i'll be able to find scum, because i'm not too bad at that. On June 27 2012 08:18 VisceraEyes wrote: Meh - you didn't really think that through. You're never ever going to get a vig-shot. Ever. If you're town, scum are going to roleblock you until the cows come home (which is a long ass time, for those not familiar with American colloquialisms.) You're going to keep on living each night, and each morning you'll be saying "Guys I swear I'm a vig...it's this damned ROLEBLOCKER!" Town isn't going to have any choice but to lynch you because not only have you had myself and Probulous on your shit since D1, but you're going to look even worse if/when I get nightkilled and flip town. Town is GOING TO HAVE to kill you. It's just a matter of when. The correct answer was "Tomorrow if I get Roleblocked". On June 27 2012 08:20 marvellosity wrote: Just because you're on my shit doesn't make me any less town. Town either believes I'm town now and that I got roleblocked or they don't. You're pushing the idea that I have to be lynched now because it could cause trouble later. No, you only lynch me now if town is convinced I'm scum. That is the correct answer my friend. + Show Spoiler + Neither has read the Vigilante role text You are the most conservative member of town, and as such you really enjoy exercising your 2nd Amendment rights to shoot criminals in the face. You have a gun with X bullets and you may shoot if you so wish at night. You are never refunded a bullet under any circumstances. You win when all the mafia have ceased to breathe. If they had they would know the bullet didn't get refunded and so he only needs blocked 1 night. AMAZING CATCH! What does it say? Like seriously how is this useful? The whole point of the discussion is that there is no way marv can confirm himself. How does this help us clear that up? | ||
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risk.nuke (0): Zephirdd (RIP) (0): rastaban (1): xsksc VisceraEyes (0): marvellosity (6): VisceraEyes, Shraft, Mattchew, Rastaban, xsksc (1): risk.nuke Shraft (0): Mattchew (1): Snarfs, Not voted (1) robulous[/QUOTE]Is this correct? | ||
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On June 27 2012 10:40 Probulous wrote: Vote Count - 5 Hours to go risk.nuke (0): Zephirdd (RIP) (0): rastaban (1): xsksc VisceraEyes (0): marvellosity (6): VisceraEyes, Shraft, Mattchew, Rastaban, xsksc (1): risk.nuke Shraft (0): Mattchew (1): Snarfs, Not voted (1): Probulous Is this correct?[/QUOTE] Fucked up format. Thank god, because I am still reading and don't want to be modkilled for missing the deadline. | ||
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I don't want to vote for you marv. I think you are town who screwed up his first day with a goddawful plan and then got snarky about it. I have to back down on my main everytime I role town. First it was the cat guy (lol forgot his name), then kitaman now you. If VE jumps we can get four on Mattchew but where are the other two going to come from? | ||
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On June 27 2012 11:03 VisceraEyes wrote: ...like, how AM I supposed to fucking respond? Realise he is pissed off and that poking him doesn't help. Make your own mind VE. If you think he is scum, then vote for him. It's that simple. | ||
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On June 27 2012 11:04 marvellosity wrote: i'm sorry. you were right though. i don't get lynched today and what happens tomorrow? no-one trusts me. my reads are probably completely fritzed because i'm not used to this situation. We are making a decision today. I trust you as much as I trust anyone in this game Seriously though, post your cases, post your reads and they will get the same treatment as anyone else. Flip it round, if you weren't lynched today than clearly what you are doing to day it the right thing to do, so keep on doing it. As VE said, find me scum. | ||
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On June 22 2012 14:17 Mattchew wrote: Maybe I am being blinded by something, but I do not see how you can get a read off of Prplhz's posts so far. I can't judge him on the MrZ policy cause I completely agree with it, and I don't see anything in his posts that has an agenda. That being said, his posting is not helping town either, so that needs to shape up immediately Terribly flaky post. On June 23 2012 04:10 Mattchew wrote: This all feels extremely middle of the road, I am ready to jump on a bandwagon but don't want to commit to anything scum play. He also contradicts himself about the talks about Marv, then contradicts his we have 48 hours post, by posting a case that he is pretty deadset on, about risk.nuke. Overall I just feel like Rastaban's posting has been flaky and his case on Risk is bad. To answer his question to the thread, I read his vote switch that he was not confident in a Marv lynch, and that he wanted to pressure a lurker with no content. Also, his first 30ish hour case doesn't take into account that Risk.nuke has played many many games before Which is ironic since that was his whole reason for voting for rastaban. Being wishy-washy is really a null tell for crazy newbs. I don't understand what not including risk's meta has to do with anything. On June 25 2012 15:07 Mattchew wrote: Prplhz's post on zeph came at a really suspicious time. He may as well have asked for a no-lynch because if his case had actually gained traction, thats what would of occurred considering the time and players available. This is terrible terrible reasoning. Why prpl would push for a Zentor lynch all day long and then offer alternates is completely reasonable. We want people to offer their thoughts on more than one person but Mattchew finds that scummy. I answered Snarfs question because it was asked of me. The discussion I believe had shifted away from Marv and he was no longer a lynch candidate. I don't believe that posting anything further about Marv would have helped town at that time. I will however be posting more on him in the next 24 hours while we discuss lynch candidates. Given he started the mess this is the biggest cop out ever. On June 26 2012 12:05 Mattchew wrote: I find this tone (throughout the game) when in conversation with Marv to be strange. He has not ever given a reason for thinking Marv or VE is town, yet constantly lumps them together as townies arguing. All in all, I find the tone of Rastaban's posts to be hesitant and a little off. I find that his lumping of townreads on players suspicious, and he has never really responded to a single case brought up. Instead he has just safely tunneled his forced case on Risk. I want scum Rastaban dead. He barely even defends himself even though he was extremely close to being lynched which shows me he's more scum than bad town (for you prob... <3) This is a really careful case given Mattchew has been pushing rastaban all game. There is nothing new since his first case and it is weak as hell. The language is also really soft. Using pharses like "I find", "never really", "a little off" but suddenly he wants him dead? Never mind how this play with his other reads it is an excuse for a case. | ||
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On June 27 2012 11:42 VisceraEyes wrote: Wow, you're really gonna come in a matter of minutes before the floor drops and criticize the wagon? Get a life Matt. :/ Don't be mean. Man you can be really spiteful when you want to. Matt, take a look at my post. Your play has been underwhelming despite you excusing your lack of posting as a new "consolidation" style. If you play that style, your contributions should matter. You posted your cases and then disappeared to pop back in 15 minutes before the deadline. Hardly pushing for a lynch. | ||
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Going to grab lunch and then take a look at xsksc. | ||
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On June 27 2012 12:20 rastaban wrote: Care to explain why? You think a no lynch is better than a lynch when unsure? Unless I was sure someone is innocent I would much rather have a lynch. The fence couldn't be farther up your ass if you tried. You agreed completely with his actions to the point that you would do the same but he could be scum Matt your only chance is to convince people that xsksc is scum. I mean your most active point in the game is right near the deadline of your lynch. Be realistic, we don't have enough people to lynch prpl, or rastaban or anyone other than you or xsksc. Unless you are pushing for a no-lynch what are you doing? | ||
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The fence thing is that you are sitting on it. In other words you are not being clear on your position with regards to prpl. You think he might be scum but would do exactly the same thing as him? That only makes sense if you are scum. Anyway, it doesn't matter because I don't think you are mafia. | ||
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I know we have Rastaban and Mattchew. VE, shraft, marv? | ||
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Posting a quote and saying the lynch is a go given he has the most votes and only ten minutes left, is incredibly insightful. Matt you haven't presented anything substantial against xsksc despite me asking multiple times. All you say is that he is bussing his team mate and is afraid to post. You can forgive me for not being overwhelmed with gratitude. | ||
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Like why the fuck you do that so close to the deadline? It has always been his question but you decide that is a valid excuse to unvote NOW. | ||
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Indeed | ||
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I mean I have repeatedly pointed out that it was Mattchew who asked the question, and I repeatedly commented that he had no response to it eventhough Marv's response was goddawful. I did this all through day 1 but you find his actions somehow townie 2 minutes before deadline? It makes 0 sense. | ||
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You guys fight it out, I'll be cowering in the corner. | ||
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Mattchew you said you pushed Marv all day long on day 1 but from what I read you only asked him the question and the pointed that you thought him suspicious. I even had to prod you for your opinion on him. Will check quotes when I get to a computer. | ||
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On June 28 2012 03:26 Mattchew wrote: I have always pushed Marv as a candidate for lynch. Day 1 did he have any chance of getting lynched? Day 2 when the votes actually mattered, where was my vote? Oh right it was on Marv. I forgot that voting Rastaban forced me to stay with Rastaban the entire day whether he would get lynched or not. I wanted to push Rastaban to get him lynched. I still think he is scum, I still want him lynched. I voiced that I would vote Marv should Rastaban not be getting the votes to get lynched. Once again, the option to type ##unvote DOES IN FACT EXIST The bold is not true. You did not push Marv as a lynch day 1. In fact you have not pushed a lynch at all. Yesterday you posted your cases and then dissapeared. Then come deadline you got all huffy survived the lynch and left. | ||
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On June 28 2012 06:46 marvellosity wrote: VE if you were still sure enough to vote for me to die yesterday, why do you even think that I would be telling the truth that I shot you? o.o You're going to have to explain that to me. VE invited you and I don't think he thinks you're mafia | ||
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I think VE, Marv, Snarfs and rastaban are town. Mattchew is mafia. | ||
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The one game that I actually didn't enjoy playing turns out to be my first win Oh well ![[image loading]](http://youcantrusttess.edublogs.org/files/2011/06/smile-dog-2dbdt8v.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.capetown.travel/uploads/legacy/Happiest_man_alive_thumb.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7HLWr.jpg) Time to change my profile Will read up on all the insanity that happened since I died. | ||
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This game for me revolved around figuring out Marvel's alignment. Normally I look at other people and try and get a better overall picture of the thread. But here the marvel thing was so dominant I had to take a position on him. I understand VE's position because marvel's reaction still doesn't make sense to me. The only thing that evers comes from not providing clear responses is a shitstorm. @Marvel, can you explain why, when you saw VE was going to tunnel the shit out of you, you didn't clarify your response to Mattchew? To me that is what sealed your fate (for a while). You knew that the only thing that would come out of being opaque would be more mess and yet that is exactly what you did. I get that people were trying to work out VE's alignment. I don't know, I have never been screwed over by a scum VE so maybe I am biased. But we all know he is liable to pressure until he gets an answer and so it is your responsibility to provide it. You can blame VE all you want but that will not prevent this from happening again. Ultimately Marv, all I wanted from you was a post that said clearly "I didn't know how to answer the question so I pushed it back. I don't want this to contiue to shit up the thread so please drop it. I will take a look at my games and give you some thoughts in a little while." and then post something clear. It was your choice NOT to do this that made me think you were scum. slOosh, you were a casualty of the marv/VE/me thing, for that I apologise. I was so focused on marv that I didn't think about other targets. I am not sure if this is the right response or not? If something like that happens, do you try and figure it out or let it be and focus on other stuff? I don't understand what happened at the end of this game. How scum lost is beyond me and rastaban should have just killed town to earn a win. Why did he no-lynch? I didn't enjoy this game, mainly because I played badly. Bugs as always you invest a huge amount of effort into your games and I really appreciate that. Your constant presence in the Obs QT and your post game stuff is worth signing up for. Thank you very much. | ||
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On July 02 2012 09:30 slOosh wrote: So where do I get confidence? Wow that is a weird question. My lack of confidence could perhaps be attributed to a pendulum effect from when I was a newbie, when I would tunnel people hard and singlehandedly strongarm mislynches. That's why I kind of asked for opinions and when Prob and prplhz gave me nulls (I think I had townish reads on them at the time) on my Snarfs case I guess I just dropped it, perhaps regardless of the marv/VE kerfuffle. I think I'm developing a good track record and that might help, but is there anything else I can do? Well I think you need to be more forthright about getting answers. You obviously had reasons for your case and when we responded with a null thing, it isn't really a response. Maybe make sure people understand your case a bit more. Tunnelling is where you approach everything with a confirmation bias, seeking clarity is not the same thing. | ||
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On July 02 2012 09:19 wherebugsgo wrote: Here's the problem though, and this is because of a failure to understand where the question came from in the first place: the question Mattchew asked marv was loaded, which meant no matter what answer marv provided, half the town would call him scum. I pointed this out in my d1 notes specifically and it worked out exactly as I thought it would. I disagree. If I don't know something, I say it. If people call me scum because of it, then they are stupid. What is the harm in straight up saying "I don't know. I haven't really thought about my meta, let me get back to you." and then saying "Well I had a read and these are some thoughts..." | ||
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On July 02 2012 09:38 marvellosity wrote: I don't really understand this line of thought. It's not alignment indicative either way. You don't think as scum I would want the noise and suspicion at me to go away? What you suggest would have been best play FOR BOTH alignments, and my failure to do so would be a failure FOR BOTH alignments. Do you see? The outcome of not clarifying was people thought you were scum. You didn't get lynched Day 1 and the whole thing continued Day 2. If I were scum in your position, I would be quite happy. Even if you were lynched Day 2 all that would have done is confirm VE and myself (which was obvious anyway) and town would have no-where to go. The people defending you were town so that doesn't help us. Messing up the thread and sacrificing yourself is a decent scum play. A townie move would be to clear the air and quell the storm. Why? Because it makes it easier to scum hunt. It removes you from the centre of attention (you're town after all) and allows us to move on. But by inflaming the situation I had not choice but to try and work out your alignment. If I was scum, I would have continued doing what you were doing until I got lynched. I would ahve got my team to bus the hell of out of me. If I was town I would have been upfront and transparent. If town had gone batshit on that, well that is their problem. | ||
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On July 02 2012 09:48 marvellosity wrote: I don't honestly see how you think people thinking I'm scum would be a good scumplay. But there we go. Well look at your defense. Um scum would never do this because it is so scummy. Should we have lynched you then? | ||
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On July 02 2012 09:52 marvellosity wrote: We've already been over all of this so many times. If you still can't see it, me explaining it again isn't going to help Thanks Look at this way, what if both you and VE were scum? Would your Day 1 play be a decent scum play? | ||
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On July 03 2012 00:51 MrZentor wrote: I knew prphlz was scum. Don't lie now. It doesn't suit you. On June 22 2012 12:01 MrZentor wrote: I don't think Prphlz as mafia would suggest something as idiotic as lynching me. On June 22 2012 22:06 MrZentor wrote: I am going to put all of Prplhz's posts in the spoiler and why each one is him making a joke, tunneling me, defending himself, talking about some other game, or some combination of those things. In summary, he hasn't done anything useful, like scum hunting. On June 23 2012 12:09 MrZentor wrote: I don't know Zephirdd....it got pretty intense, but I do agree that we should kill one of them. ##Vote: marvellosity You were wrong as were most of us. | ||
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 You're a champ mate. I agree that slOosh's point about the size of the game was crucial and it was something I missed in game and post game. I understand now why marvel's play made little sense for scum in this particular game. Sorry Marv, you were saying this but I wasn't getting it. As Bugs says, you are one of those people I know could pull this kind of stunt off which is why it was in my realm of possibility. I like the idea of going back to the source of a fight. I did a bit on day 1 but got caught up in the Marv thing. In that situation is it better to try and work out the alignments of the people throwing shit, or to just ignore it and look elsewhere for scum? I had real trouble trying to divorce myself from looking at Marv's filter because I felt the game hinged on his alignment and so I had to get a read on him. Maybe I should have just given up and looked harder elsewhere. I always thought Mattchew was suspicious but I never really pushed him until day 2. That was a casualty of my preoccupation with Marv. | ||
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It is more the principle of the thing. If two people are throwing shit around, what is the optimal play? Try and figure them out or just let them be and look elsewhere? | ||
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On July 03 2012 07:20 marvellosity wrote: I think even though you put forward a bunch of decent logical arguments against me (although as discussed, flawed a little), you weren't at all sure yourself I was scum anyway. Exactly. That is my question. I was 100% certain VE was town. He just screamed it to me. So that was why I was focused on you. Yeah maybe if I am unsure I should just move on to someone else and then come back to it later. Will keep in mind. | ||
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On July 03 2012 07:33 marvellosity wrote: go back and read wbg's analysis too, because I *did* make points that VE was twisting and manipulating my words, and you and others said I didn't. You got confirmation bias. Again, that is irrelevant because VE's case was not what my case was based on and I had a very strong town read on him. VE was going on about your meta and such things which is not alignment indicative. I was concerned with your refusal to quell the argument with clarity (which could have been a scum ploy). VE's twisting of your words was bleh to me. I agree that I was LOOKING for why you were scum, rather than trying to find out IF you were scum. It was a combination of things that lead me down that road. I didn't think you would do that as town; I did think you were capable of pulling this stunt as scum; I had a strong town read on VE; I know you are capable of pulling the wool over my eyes and so was extra cautious with you. Consider it a compliment | ||
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It feels so hollow | ||
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EDIT: To VE: I wouldn't have bloody had to shoot Matt if you hadn't unvoted him Ouch! That was a day that started with good intentions (the marv is no longer scum thing), followed by a really bad no-lynch followed by a ROFL WTF shot. When it rains it pours. | ||
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I know bugs is capable of causing a shit fest for scum, it is his style that alerted me to the possibilities. Bugs, you joining in Ver's game? | ||
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