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Oberyn
United Kingdom508 Posts
If Fulla gives 1 mana to WBG, I can give them to WBG so he can summon his 4/4 creature. I want to hear from Promethelax and Mattchew to see if they have other creatures to summon that require <=3 mana. @Nova: What would you think about attacking S&B with the 8/8 next turn? I want your thoughts on him | ||
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Zealos
United Kingdom3575 Posts
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Fulla
United Kingdom519 Posts
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Oberyn
United Kingdom508 Posts
On June 30 2012 02:19 Fulla wrote: Sending from my phone so can't read the board thread right now. Dow anyone need my mountain? If there's 2 spare mana between us with no better options I can still cast elecropence You could give me the mana, that way I can instantly give either you the 3 mana or WBG the 3 mana without having the need to wait for 2-3 players to be around to give mana to each other | ||
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Oberyn
United Kingdom508 Posts
Well...yeah still, I'd prefer giving it to WBG or someone else so they get a monster out, and you cast Electropotency 1-2 turns later when you have more lands/mana out. | ||
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Fulla
United Kingdom519 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
if you are considering attacking me or supporting an attack on me because of Oberyn's "case", please read the whole thing. I think it's worth it. + Show Spoiler [oberyn's big post on me] + On June 30 2012 00:41 Oberyn wrote: I get the feeling you are Grey's buddy, and you are just trying to "justify" your "target" for today's attack by grasping at straws. I get this feeling mostly because of these reasons: -S&B's posts "seem" town....however he isn't "obvious town" as Prome, WBG or maybe even Nova...he just "seems" townie; but doesn't do much with it. That appears to be the case of scum trying to "appear" townie, but not doing anything that actually benefits town (which is what makes those other people "obvious town"). Not only that, but like I said, he doesn't really do anything to contribute to town. Just like Greymist, his filter consists of commenting on several issues, but not trying to scumhunt himself. The first "opinion" on a player comes when I basically ask him for it: He also avoids trying to make a stance on Greymist; first he says he's not sure, and now he's still not sure about him, even with all the things me/WBG/prome/etc said about him. [green][1][/green I find him suspicious as well for this: kita told me that scum would most likely "think" we are town but oppose our plan, which is basically what s&b did. Not only that, but this makes me suspicious as well: He immediately tapped all his lands/mana to summon a "weak" 2/2 monster, even though the Board card was already up and discussion about using it was already made. Yes, he may have "planned" to do that play....but Fulla planned on playing Electropotency and others planned other things....yet they didn't instantly reduce all their mana, and play them without previously talking about it. He could have done it as town....but it's still odd (again considering the circumstances) About his attack on Zealos: He's basically grasping at straws and using whatever he can to justify his suspicion on Zealos. I shouldn't need to state why this is a shitty reason for thinking someone is scum (tip: the "if you don't include yourself in "town" you are scum" scumslip doesn't exist and is done by townies more than by scum). So....that's his only reason for attacking Zealos? Nothing else? I don't buy it. Other players have mentioned other reasons for being suspicious of Zealos. Grey, Nova, Promo, and others posted reasons of their own about it (and good reasons); but s&b's reason is just shitty and I don't believe he'd think someone is scum based on that if he was town. The thing that doesn't make me be sure he's scum is that "I want everybody to attack each other!" plan he basically pushed down our throats on D1. It seems like a plan that would benefit mafia, but his execution didn't seem mafia, at least not what I would expect. He was very aggressive about it, and even when told it was a bad plan he kept pushing it, like if he was actually a townie that was convinced it would work. Sadly it's the only thing that makes me think he could be town, everything else makes me think he's Grey's buddy. What do you guys think? I'll be using spoiler tags in this post because it's pretty long. First, I've already explained my play this turn, so I'll tl;dr it for you. 1. I agreed with my brother what to play before anyone had proposed the "town beast" plan. He then posted it. 2. I don't know whether that was the right decision, but I think I still like it. I think we shouldn't invest so much into these two creatures when we could be investing in distributed KP. 3. If you think nantuko husk isn't worth playing or doesn't increase my KP significantly then you don't know what you're talking about. Which you actually don't. Now, about Zealos and Greymist. Yes, that is my reason for attacking Zealos. I think that post was a scum slip. I also think that post demonstrates that he isn't playing from a townie mindset. The obvious town reasoning is that increasing town KP is good, regardless of whether it's directed at you in the shorter term. The answer isn't "no I won't help town increase its KP", it's "you fucking moron I'm town don't kill me, but here's how we can increase town KP." Yes one really bad post is enough to change my mind about who to attack. Next let me explain a bit more what I think about greymist. I know whatever I say I'm either going to be accused of "soft defending" or "distancing," so I'm going to go the whole fucking nine yards and do an analysis on his filter. I reread his filter and noticed that he's been on the defensive ever since you started attacking him for his response to the "i don't like this sliver" post. + Show Spoiler [greymist's response to that attack] + On June 26 2012 02:54 GreYMisT wrote: Why should his post concern me? I read it as someone, mafia or town, who is afraid of a shitton of flying creatures, which is a mechanic actually not seen alot in the standard play these days. In addition, Nova is running green, which traditionally does not have a lot of flying creatures unless he has spiders with reach. The fact is there are any number of reasons that a town player or a mafia player would react that way. What is important is to watch his actions. He has expressed concern over my future power, but hasnt commited to rallying people against me. because his post could be interpreted in so many different ways, including as scared comment from a old magic player familiar with slivers, I choose not to read too much into it until I have more information. In light of Nova's other posts he reads town to me at the moment. he is being a fairly positive communicator. Here is how I will be approaching this game, knowing I am a fairly big focus atm just due to my deck choice. I will play a sliver each turn if able, and I will not hold them back "for the good of the town". why? because think of it this way: by not playing slivers and just building my lands, Town does not know what powers I have in my hand, and it increases my potential of dropping 3 in one turn, surprising the town. I am against withholding information that could be useful to the town, so this is the way I will proceed. This is different than my stance on others deck claiming because deck claiming is not useful for people whose decks have not been revealed. Slivers, unfortunately, don't have much capability to help others, however I do have one in my deck that can. If I have the ability to play Cautery Sliver, I will above any other. I think wb-g's attack was dumb. Straight up dumb. The "I don't like this sliver" post is something that anyone who is more experienced than you are at magic would post, because we know how fast slivers snowball; anyone who didn't have flying creatures or mass removal in their deck would also be scared of the flying sliver. I also agree with this post by Greymist: On June 27 2012 13:40 GreYMisT wrote: Thats really all it took for your opinion to change on him? Seems to me you just tried to placate him when his attention focused on you. What makes you worried about Matt? i find that he is making far more sense than zealos Seriously, why isn't anyone worried about the fact that Promethelax attacked me pretty strongly, then when I responded in a way that was specifically designed to aggravate him, he just backed off instantly? I say "cool story bro" and he responds with "you know what, your sarcasm has made me realize how uncool that story really was also you're town"? Looking through your filter, the extent of your case on Greymist seems to be the following post: On June 26 2012 06:46 Oberyn wrote: Yeah Toad, this setup is very interesting, and I basically joined this game because of it, so I want to make the most out of. So far, Fuller and Zealos have unimpressive filters, but I don't want to get hasty in making a call on them yet. I get the feeling in the back of my head that Fuller is just a newbie and is acting like one, and Zealos is just an uncaring townie. Basically, I'm leaning on 2 sets of players as "suspicious" for different reasons: 1)Fulla and Zealos 2)Greymist and S&B 1)Because they are either lurking and not commenting on anything at all (in Zealos case) or is just neutral, throwing "safe" opinions that have already been discussed (like saying "yeah Grey's deck is dangerous", "yeah Obe and Pro seem town", etc), in Fuller's case. However, if Fuller's noob town, I can see him posting just for the sake of posting (like you said), and is trying to find something to post, anything at all. This happens most of the time with noobs, they don't want to lurk and be called out because of it, but don't really have an interesting opinion themselves. Because of the tone of his post I think this may be the case, but I won't assume anything for now 2)Because of the way they seem to be posting. I don't see them posting to contribute too much, but either to post just for the sake of posting and discuss random things and appear active (in S&B's case), or only playing defensive and posting to defend/explain himself, and to post tiny bits of things that at first glance don't seem to contribute to town (in Grey's case). However, it's D1 of a complete clusterfuck of a game with unknown mechanics and shit, so it's possible for them to feel bewildered or disoriented, even if they are players with more experience than say, Fuller. At least this is the first impression I get from them so far. I think our attention should be on these 2 sets of players, and I'd like people's opinions on them. I'd also like people's opinions on the "take target moster to owner's hand, attack him directly but let him have his creature just in case" plan of mine (yeah more setup talk, but whatever) /gonzaw So I think your case may be valid (more on that later) but it's nowhere near as strong as you act. Your case boils down to "guys he has been posting a lot but he hasn't shared his opinion on things". Well, about the middle third of his filter is taken up by defending himself against attacks that are dumb, so I consider that a mitigating circumstance. HOWEVER, I also don't think he's done nearly enough to establish himself as town, rather than just get frustrated at the fact that the attacks were stupid. You see the following post from his brother as scummy. I see it as null between scummy and someone who knows a lot more about multiplayer magic than they do about mafia. On June 28 2012 08:22 GreYMisT wrote: greymist's brother Dangeresque here Oberyn here pretty much calls me out and says that me and grey are purposely playing things before we discus things so that i can "claim to help people and then not do it" thus making me scum. this is however extremely ignorant and untrue. im all for helping out people who need lands, its a great advantage for the town. but also it is a great advantage for the mafia. we don't have a way of knowing if the lands that im giving you (that would have made it impossible to further my own progress, as they are my lands after all) are going to go towards helping us or killing us. dont just go giving away lands away to someone just because he asks for it, sure 2 extra lands wont make that much of a difference but it will help to unset a balance in how we determine who is scum and who is town. on another note, the particular deck that i am using requires me to make the most of every turn and every mana so that i can actually make a difference in the game. don't call me scum because im playing my deck the best way possible with the cards in my hand and not giving away charity to those who i don't trust I agree with the bolded in the following post: On June 28 2012 14:23 GreYMisT wrote: Im not, Im frustrated because you accuse people of inactivity, where all it is is you post so freaking much back to back, than we are all drawfed by comparison. Imagine in real life if we were at a table and you ran around talking like this. I would slap you. Some of us like to sit back and think about things going on before we start polluting the thread. Anyway, Don't you think its a bit weird that he only logged on for a bit and discussed pointless stuff? In my eyes he is a lurker, and a scummy one at that. And why on earth would scum waste their KP on a person who is inactive and at low life? you arnt really putting much thought into this zealos thing are you? I'm done dealing with this for tonight. be on tomorrow afternoon. Seriously, do you see how many posts your smurf account has? Does it not cross your mind that if you post constantly like that it might dampen discussion? SO: I think your case against Greymist is dumb and you're acting as if he's claimed scum or something. You're even building a case on me based on the assumption that I'm greymist's scumbuddy, which is pretty absurd IMO. That said: I still think Greymist is scummy. Here are some examples from his filter: He comes right out of the gate and says this: On June 25 2012 15:58 GreYMisT wrote: I don't think there is any inherent advantage that deck revealing will give us. Our decks will be revealed in the first 2 turns, or this one just by the colors played. in addition, mafia don't need to have good decks at all to win this game. That being said I do not think that "planning out a card playing strategy" is a good idea at all. Treat this like a normal magic multiplayer game with a subgroup of mafia members (lol). If im in a game and my enemies lay out a strategy, I now know its weak points. While we lose coordination, I feel that is a good price to pay for not allowing the mafia to screw us. The above goes for the town as a whole. I understand the fear that my deck causes, and I am willing to accomidate a "soft claim" of my hand as the game progresses. The sliver strat really doesnt vary based on what knowledge my opponent has. Everyone can be rest assured that I'm not going to go wacko on everyone, I'm not dumb enough to play a sliver deck and make everyone an enemy. He even continues pushing this paradigm later: On June 25 2012 22:48 GreYMisT wrote: Where did I put that heart sliver... A few pages back someone asked a question that missed, and it was along the lines of would mafia attack each other in the early game. I would agree. Mafia applying pressure to each other in the form of "kp" would be very dangerous the later the game goes on. One thing to remember is this is a magic game. I for example cannot go crazy and attack someone, because it would leave me open to be attacked by 8 other players. My deck will get very strong with time yes, but it's strength is weakened by the number of players that are against me. I do not see the advantages of a deck claim at this time. Would someone for it please enlighten me? And he also uses this logic when he's trying to rebut my everyone attack everyone plan. The thing is, if we treat this like a multiplayer magic game, we will lose. As I've said above, multiplayer magic games tend to be defensive. Greymist even acknowledges this, when he says that he will get attacked by too many other players if he gets too aggressive. That's how multiplayer magic games often go, for you who don't play much magic: when there's a lot of people they tend to gang up on whoever looks like they are "winning," and they try and build alliances by attacking people who initiate aggression on other players. That's a winning strategy when only one person can win; try and get the majority on your side and slowly whittle down the number of players. That's not a winning strategy when there's a time limit on the game, which the mafia monster effectively is. It's also not good strategy when you can win despite dying in the magic game, which is the case here. I also think this post is suspicious, but not for the reasons that you guys found it suspicious: On June 26 2012 02:54 GreYMisT wrote: Why should his post concern me? I read it as someone, mafia or town, who is afraid of a shitton of flying creatures, which is a mechanic actually not seen alot in the standard play these days. In addition, Nova is running green, which traditionally does not have a lot of flying creatures unless he has spiders with reach. The fact is there are any number of reasons that a town player or a mafia player would react that way. What is important is to watch his actions. He has expressed concern over my future power, but hasnt commited to rallying people against me. because his post could be interpreted in so many different ways, including as scared comment from a old magic player familiar with slivers, I choose not to read too much into it until I have more information. In light of Nova's other posts he reads town to me at the moment. he is being a fairly positive communicator. Here is how I will be approaching this game, knowing I am a fairly big focus atm just due to my deck choice. I will play a sliver each turn if able, and I will not hold them back "for the good of the town". why? because think of it this way: by not playing slivers and just building my lands, Town does not know what powers I have in my hand, and it increases my potential of dropping 3 in one turn, surprising the town. I am against withholding information that could be useful to the town, so this is the way I will proceed. This is different than my stance on others deck claiming because deck claiming is not useful for people whose decks have not been revealed. Slivers, unfortunately, don't have much capability to help others, however I do have one in my deck that can. If I have the ability to play Cautery Sliver, I will above any other. First bolded: His reason for building up and playing a sliver each turn is "to not keep information from town." That's bullshit. What is in our decks or hands doesn't tell us crap about alignments, since decks were submitted before knowing alignments. The real town reason for building up and playing creatures each turn would be "I want to build up my power because I'm town and I want to fucking kill scum." It's that simple. That's why I have been playing and will continue to play zombies. Second bolded: also BS. Cautery sliver is freaking terrible. It sacs a sliver, thus removing an ability from all his other slivers, to prevent one single damage. That doesn't do crap for town, but it makes it easy to seem town because you're sacrificing your own power to help others. I'll say it again: giving up your own powers to help other townies is NOT automatically a town action. It is ONLY town when the power you help other people gain is GREATER than the power you're giving up to do so. That's because the whole town has the same objective (to kill scum) and is equally confirmed / non-confirmed at this point. It's the total power that matters, more than the distribution. So here's what my re-read and analysis of Greymist's filter has gotten me. First, your case is somewhat correct insofar as he hasn't done much to establish himself as town. Second, your case is mostly bullshit because you're pushing it as far stronger than it actually is, because you're ignoring a lot of the real things that make greymist scummy, and because it's a self-fulfilling prophesy; as long as greymist has to keep responding to content-less attacks on his lack of content, his filter will grow without gaining more content. If he's town, I believe that part of the reason that his posting doesn't show it is because he genuinely got frustrated defending himself against your constant posting and bad attacks. If he's scum, you've given him cover to play less town because he can act like a frustrated townie (see above.) Third, he hasn't posted enough reads or interaction with other peoples' cases for me to tell from that information whether or not he's scum. Fourth, his posting about theory and actions in the magic game has been consistently wrong, from his opposition to my awesome protown attacking plan to his explanation of his own actions to his interpretation of how we should play the game. So let me be perfectly clear: Yes, I think Greymist is most likely scum and that he is a valid attack target. However, because of the damping effect caused by your and wb-g's crappy case against him, I can't be 100% sure. Therefore, Zealos's scumslip, combined with his generally crappy filter, make me MORE CERTAIN he is scum than I am about Greymist. Therefore, I want to attack Zealos. | ||
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Oberyn
United Kingdom508 Posts
On June 30 2012 02:23 Fulla wrote: Shall I just give it you then? Yeah, or give it to WBG and I'll give it to him later But it's the same, I'll have to give someone 2 mana so the action of me giving someone mana will still be present, so might as well give the 3 mana in once piece So yeah give it to me (nom nom nom I'm eating all you guys mana  ) | ||
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Zealos
United Kingdom3575 Posts
On June 30 2012 02:24 strongandbig wrote: Yes, that is my reason for attacking Zealos. I think that post was a scum slip. I also think that post demonstrates that he isn't playing from a townie mindset. Saw this. Didn't bother reading the rest. Stop being retarded please you scummy scum scum. | ||
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Oberyn
United Kingdom508 Posts
I've only caught a little bit of one thing: Seriously, do you see how many posts your smurf account has? Does it not cross your mind that if you post constantly like that it might dampen discussion? I have 9 pages of filter....but there are only 33 pages of the game and it's freaking Day 2-nearing Night 2. If I don't post almost nobody will. Also I'm not trying to dampen discussion but creating it, for instance by posting my case on you and seeing what other people think. Also this game is awesome and I'm pretty excited about it | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On June 30 2012 02:30 Oberyn wrote: Holy wall of text. I've only caught a little bit of one thing: I have 9 pages of filter....but there are only 33 pages of the game and it's freaking Day 2-nearing Night 2. If I don't post almost nobody will. Also I'm not trying to dampen discussion but creating it, for instance by posting my case on you and seeing what other people think. Also this game is awesome and I'm pretty excited about it I hope you read the rest :p But I agree the game has gotten off slow. I've been posting about the same amount as I normally do, I think but that seems like on the low side for most mafia players. What you have to remember are: -this is a much smaller game even than a normal mini, and -so far we haven't had any votes or actions to analyze except for the one night attack. That's why I still think my everyone attack plan is good, it would have given us so much more to analyze. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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Oberyn
United Kingdom508 Posts
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Fulla
United Kingdom519 Posts
##tap mountain. ##Cast helpfulness. ##Give mana to obe | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On June 30 2012 02:39 Oberyn wrote: What do you think of Zealos suddenly changing his mind and giving me 3 mana? He did it after you said you would attack me or grey, not him. Risky if he and grey are scum together, but null otherwise since it would be the right move either as scum or town, given that he's under pressure. | ||
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
On June 30 2012 02:39 Oberyn wrote: What do you think of Zealos suddenly changing his mind and giving me 3 mana? Is that enough for you? Wow, me and my scumbuddies have this game in the bag, we just need to give you things! | ||
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Oberyn
United Kingdom508 Posts
On June 30 2012 02:51 GreYMisT wrote: Is that enough for you? Wow, me and my scumbuddies have this game in the bag, we just need to give you things! It's certainly a step in the right direction. Also hi there Greymist! Nice of you to do something so useful as discrediting my read on Zealos. | ||
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
On June 30 2012 02:57 Oberyn wrote: It's certainly a step in the right direction. Also hi there Greymist! Nice of you to do something so useful as discrediting my read on Zealos. Thats becuase its a bad read. | ||
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
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