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I'll drop my own cases...for now, for the purpose of getting a lynch I rather believe to be good instead of the BKE lynch.
Gonna repeat the unanswered questions to VE after day1, I'm not gonna stop until you spit it out, dude.
I think ET proposed some interesting alternatives. The Kenpachi rule deserves some discussion imo, cause it can also be subject to mistakes/manipulation from scum knowing that it will be applied.
If scum posts the role pms VT rolename, then there will be only one group of players that can answer in disbelief/discomfort to that:
Blues.
Using the kenpachi rule is a double edged-sword with a much sharper edge on the side designed to kill townies.
In regards of this specific case about mKmK:
I fear lynching him for the possibility that he's just a blue role trying to keep his head low.
That said, I think ET should not jump on him so easily based on a policy formed through previous games.
Mandalor caught my eye now. His posting style rings scum to me.
Tell me more, friend.
##Vote Mandalor
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oddly enough I don't think I've ever seen the kenpachi rule fail in all the games I've read
it must've worked at least 6 or 7 times in a row from what I remember.
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On July 01 2012 20:19 Vivax wrote:
I fear lynching him for the possibility that he's just a blue role trying to keep his head low.
That said, I think ET should not jump on him so easily based on a policy formed through previous games.
.........................................
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Ok, ET. Looks like I'll have to do the talk for you: "Why the hell is Vivax using that argument when I've already posted 2 others for a scum mK being an option?Does he want to say that the policy is the only reason I'm doing that?"
1. The scum claim you adressed.
I guess with it you meant that he says VE used good arguments against BKE, but then considers him to be scummy for one line of text than really says nothing about VE's alignment.
Then he suspects kurumi for 'mafiavibes', that's all.
I agree that his arguments are terrible and contain zero information. From this point of view he's actually scummy or bad townie.
2. His low activity after that post
I don't know how experienced it is, but that behavior would also fit a blue role.
That would also be the argument made by you I consider to not be decisive, yet you treat this as a strong argument against him.
3. His wishywashy post regarding the VT roleclaim.
A blue role could react like that, too.
___________________________________________
I'm kind of changing my opinion regarding him after writing this. Mainly because of point 1 .I still think that point 2 and 3 wouldn't be enough for me to vote for him. But 1 is a good argument to vote for him.
Sorry if I don't have as much faith in the kenpachi rule as you do, but I didn't see it successfully in action through multiple games, and I also see the downsides.
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Can someone tell me what the kenpachi rule is exactly? Must've come up after my mafia activity.
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On July 01 2012 21:46 Mandalor wrote:
Can someone tell me what the kenpachi rule is exactly? Must've come up after my mafia activity.
On July 01 2012 00:12 EchelonTee wrote:This is the case on mKmKmK. Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 10:12 mKmKmK wrote:On June 30 2012 10:06 NoSmurfHere wrote:
I am a Role Name.
how quaint. vague post is vague... Kenpachi rule. Wishy washy reaction towards VT claim while trying to paint it in bad light.
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ET, don't you think that a scum mK would also imply a scum BKE?
Since mK started by suspecting VE, I guess he might have been trying to cover BKE with it while not explicitly saying that BKE might be town.
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Can we try not to make connection cases until we actually flip a scum and are sure we're connecting to scum? Connections don't work until you flip someone.
Catching up on the thread now.
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I'm not comfortable with a Broodking lynch right at this point, although it looks like that wagon has passed somewhat. For one thing, from what I remember, he's been mislynched a few times (out of a small sample size).
- Newbie XIII, D1 mislynch
- Student Mafia, D3 mislynch
- "Area" LIII, modkilled after D3, so no mislynch. Anyone in that game remember him looking scummy?
I'll admit that I don't find "BKE often looks scummy as town" to be strong reasoning, but for D1 it's enough that I don't want lynch him. I also thought BKE had played in another game or two, but didn't see more in his profile.
However, I'd love for him to clarify his first post, given all this discussion. Broodking, you say that you don't consider those with 4 or 5 games newbies. The rest of the players seem to disagree, and I know that I do (no more newbie games allowed =/= not a newbie in my mind). IF you accept a much more broad definition of noob, like the thread seems to want, would you alter your first post? Should people with something like 4-8 games be treated like the noobs in your post, or treated like more seasoned players?
I'm alright with adding my vote to mK right now. The whole "role name" thing is actually what I thought Mattchew was referring to earlier when he said a previous poster looked super townie to him, and that was my dumb "don't think you should be trusting that" post. It's in VT pms, it's in the OP, if scum received the VT pm then they had it too, etc. Worried that mK's reaction is a blue who didn't read vs. scum who didn't read (those are the obvious options, so don't get on my junk about possibly revealing blues), but if so, he can defend himself if he ever returns to the thread. The absence in the face of votes doesn't look good to me from that standpoint.
NoSmurf, initially I read you as one of the more sensible and townie folks in the thread. However, this caught my eye somewhat:
On July 01 2012 10:23 NoSmurfHere wrote:
You seem to sincerely believe in such terrible logic, so you're probably town. However I'm not voting BKE just because it's day 1. I don't think anything he's done or said is so far particularly scummy. At no point have I agreed with that terrible case, so why bother acknowledging that the rest of you are idiots for bandwagoning him?
On the other hand mafia lurk to shake suspicion ALL the time. mK seemingly has done exactly this, and if he's mafia certainly it's working.
So, in this case, obviously I'm far more inclined to believe that the guy who is actively trying to stop a bad lynch is town whereas the scummy lurker is not. If mK is town he has a huge incentive to address the votes on him and make a case on his scumreads rather than disappear immediately after voting. Also speculating about his status is pretty stupid when I voted for him fairly quickly after he posted.
On July 01 2012 12:38 NoSmurfHere wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 11:47 Adam4167 wrote:On July 01 2012 06:40 EchelonTee wrote:
Hey Adam, remember my first game? When sephirothag or whoever crucified himself for no reason? This is the MrZentor variety of it. I do remember that game, one of my favourites. The difference between sephirotharg and casualman is that sephiroth was trying and making errors, casualman is not even trying at all, just acting obnoxiously. Vigs, shoot him tonight. Lets not waste a lynch and a full day cycle worth of discussion on someone who is trolling us. On July 01 2012 10:21 Mandalor wrote:On July 01 2012 06:25 layabout wrote:On July 01 2012 06:10 Mandalor wrote:On July 01 2012 01:46 MajuGarzett wrote:On July 01 2012 01:42 Mandalor wrote:
##VOTE: BKE
I expected this game to start in like a week or sth. I'll promise to catch up with the thread and be more active beginning tomorrow. If you're not caught up why did you vote? I had read the first ten pages and it seemed to be the best option. Haven't changed my mind now that I'vve caught up. It's day1 tho, I don't expect a 100% surefire candidate to pop up this early. Could you maybe share some of your decision making process? You know, so that we can see you did more than place your vote on the guy with the most votes. sure. On Day1, I feel like there's only two good options for town. a) kill a lurker b) kill a guy that causes trouble just hours into the game I don't like option a). Playing as mafia is fun. You hang around in a chat channel and make your plans. You're probably more busy with the chat than writing in the thread, but still... you're less likely to lurk. If the mafia is smart, they will have a couple of lurkers, but definitely not the majority so the odds of killing a town lurker is a lot higher on day1. BKE qualifies for option b). Whether or not he's mafia, I personally don't like people in my game that use words like "scummy" judging people's first post in the game. Noone has posted enough in this game that I could possibly have built a good enough opinion on them, but apparently he can do that. I'm not even going to address his newbie-theory. I'm not saying I'm sure about BKE whatsoever, but he's our best option in my book. This post stinks. You seem to be ignoring the obvious third choice for town on day 1: we lynch someone acting scummy. You're recommending we lynch BKE on the basis that you don't like people casting early judgments. This is encouraging a passive game, are you afraid of a little bit of heat? You seem to want to punish BKE for playing badly rather than lynch him for being scum, a scum's bread-and-butter move. In addition, your vote just looks like a blatant bandwagon on the guy currently leading the vote count, you only justified it afterwards when MajuGarzett questioned you about it 5 hours later. I think you are scum. ##Vote: Mandalor this is a good case and these are all things I picked up on myself when I read mandalor's posts.
I am completely fine with Mandalor and mKmKmK being lynched today. Anyone else will take some serious convincing. For now I'm going to keep my vote on mK, but in the interest of consolidation and actually lynching someone I have a scumread on, if that lynch doesn't fly I'll push Mandalor with you.
Care to explain your train of thought? Over the course of 2 hours, you went from "probably town" to "completely fine with Mandalor lynch/scumread on Mandalor." Would like for you to articulate why you changed your read there.
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Why is everybody forgetting about BM? Lets look at another gem of his!
On July 01 2012 08:25 Bill Murray wrote:
Acrofales FoS on BKX is fishy as fuck
if BKX flips scum, will you all listen to me on acrofales?
It's a JEEP tell for a FoS with a vote on someone else
Acrofales did that, lets test BKX
##Unvote
##Vote: BKX
He thinks I am scum (lets not forget the marvel of a case he made on me), but we should lynch BKE instead! Because I FoS'd BKE without voting for him, which is a clear sign of that if BKE is scum, then Acro is scum.
I'm all for lynching BKE, he looks scummy. However, my vote only goes so far and BM looks like a better candidate: he is using a terrible excuse to hop on a bandwagon. He's not saying why BKE is scum. In fact, his reason for thinking BKE is scum is that I (scum in BM's eyes) FoS'd him (something scum clearly do).
I know BM always uses bad reasoning, but this time I think it's scummy bad reasoning. Lets lynch him
Regarding Katina. I feel Katina is a bit like Mattchew this game. Both are rather good players and neither have put any effort at all into playing. Both of them should be clearer reads when they start posting. Atm I'm null on Katina: she reads like someone who has put no effort at all into reading the thread, sheeped VE and went afk again. This could be scum, but could also be a lazy/busy townie who is putting no effort into the game and sheeps a veteran. Seems like a bad lynch candidate atm.
mK is basically a lurker lynch with the addition of Kenpachi rule. Seems decent to me.
In my opinion the lynch should be between mK, BKE or BM. There are other blips on my scumdar, but these three are topping the scumometer. Out of these three, BM is the scummiest, but if votes are needed for consolidation, either of the other 2 work for me.
Other comments:
@adam: I don't see what is scummy about that post by mandalor. I read it as being a lurker lynch policy unless we find someone who acts scummy (that was his point b) imho). The wording he uses is strange, but "someone doing scummy stuff at the start of D1" is generally a pretty decent way of finding scum. Ask Maju how well it works 
@kurumi: I am really tired of you trolling every game you play in. Yes, I could decipher your first two posts, but it took 3 times as long as it should've and putting that much effort into understanding one player is just not worth it. I still don't have a clue what the fuck you mean with bears in eastern russia.
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On July 01 2012 00:02 Vivax wrote:Shiao, maybe that vote was weak for the case to start, but the follow up matters too, just cause a case starts based on a weak claim doesn't mean that the information obtained from the reactions is useless. VE, can you enlighten me on this one? Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 23:00 VisceraEyes wrote:
BM is another story and if you guys wanna get a bandwagon going on that guy, I'm all about it. I'm on BKE until further notice, though.
You are very consistent in your case against BKE. On the other hand it's a way of looking townie without having to post more information regarding other players. You have been asking people THREE times for opinions regarding BKE, I gave you mine. If you can't find your three questions 'what do you think of BKE?' then I will gladly post the links to your posts. To make it short: VE, why would you support a bandwagon on BM without posting the reasons for it?
I would support a bandwagon/lynch on BM, and I've given reasons or it, here.
On June 30 2012 19:47 VisceraEyes wrote:
Actually, after giving it some thought - I don't. I think he might be our first lynch today.
It looked to me at first like he was trying to get reactions. However, his turn came WAY too soon. I mean, even if he thought your reaction was "scummy", at least if it were me, I'd want to get others' reactions too before cracking the facade. I mean, limiting his "reaction test" to people who are active presently seems...less than optimal.
I think he was trying to get an early BW started on me, saw that it wasn't going to work, and used the fact that Acro defended me to switch his focus without "looking scummy".
Now, this is the ONLY question you've asked me Viv (that I can see), and you've TWICE now accused me of ignoring questions...which is funny because I answer the question in my filter BEFORE you ask it.
So I guess the question becomes: instead of accuse me of "evading your questions" or whatever, why didn't you just look in my filter for the answers you sought?
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I prefer a BM lynch to BXE at this point. BXE I can believe is acting this way as town. BM I'm not so sure.
##Unvote: BXE
##Vote: BillMurray
Skidoosh. Let's get it done.
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On July 01 2012 23:50 VisceraEyes wrote:
Now, this is the ONLY question you've asked me Viv (that I can see), and you've TWICE now accused me of ignoring questions...which is funny because I answer the question in my filter BEFORE you ask it.
So I guess the question becomes: instead of accuse me of "evading your questions" or whatever, why didn't you just look in my filter for the answers you sought?
On July 01 2012 00:29 Vivax wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 30 2012 10:39 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 10:03 BroodKingEXE wrote:
I want to start out discussing newbies. How are we as a town going to deal with players that are not as strong (as we do have a couple in the game)? Personally I think that these players need to be examined for the intent of their posts more than the evidence that they provide. Newbies still need to figure out what types of evidence are valid for examining a person, and we need to look at whether they are trying to draw out info from nothing or if there was actually a scummy read behind it. In the last few games I have played newbies have been lynched from poor evidence when they in fact were legitimately trying to help the town. I want everyone to take this in mind as we deal with newbies. .......I'm kinda having a hard time accepting that you don't have an agenda considering all these factors. FoS: BKE
The case against BKE also started based on a weak claim. How the hell is one supposed to have an agenda when he's taling about policy? Should BKE have posted all lurkers and newbies or what did you expect him to do, VE?
My other question concerns your reasons for suspecting BKE.
Regarding BillMurray:
Your reason for suspecting him is that you think that he tried to start a bandwagon on you.
He called you out cause of your selfvote, and so did I.
You never defended yourself for your weird self-vote, others defended you instead, like acrofales with this lolpost:
On June 30 2012 17:53 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 14:23 Bill Murray wrote:
VE's selfvote shenanigans is scummy
I do not agree with faking confirmation bias I disagree. A selfvote at this point is completely null: it's the start of D1 when votes mean nothing, and who the hell knows why VE does what he does anyway?However, with all the pre-game "policy lynch VE" stuff going on (it was fun, but lets not take that shit seriously), I think scum could be pushing a VE lynch based on shitty evidence like this. ##vote BillMurray
Doesn't look like acrofales has any interest whatsoever in even considering a scum VE, and his next post:
On June 30 2012 19:16 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 18:47 Bill Murray wrote:
your selfvote does not fool me VE
VE + Acrofales scumteam
calling it now Lol. Nice OMGUS. So let me follow your thought process. 1. VE is scum because he voted for himself, which only scum would do to look townie. 2. I call the reason dumb (which I guess could conceivably be seen as a defense of VE, but was more an attack on you. I am still pretty null on VE). 3. Instead of backing up your reason for voting VE with some actual evidence, you OMGUS and conclude that VE and I must be scum together. Do I really need to point out the multiple logic fails in here?
Here acrofales says that
1. he doesn't believe that selfvote to be scummy.
2. doesn't want to look like he's defending VE and emphasizes that he doesn't have an opinion regarding him.
3. Goes so far to say that the self-vote can't be used as evidence for anything and that BM's case is OMGUS.
Then VE doesn't explain the self-vote and tries to discredit BM with this:
On June 30 2012 19:28 VisceraEyes wrote:
Acrofales, I suggest you leave BM to his insanities. I'm gonna look for scum instead of try and reason with him.
Then BM answered with this:
On June 30 2012 19:32 Bill Murray wrote:
Acrofales, it's not OMGUS when I have reasoning
You have chainsawed
You have also set up a chance for a weak ass switch to the BW on BKExe
scummy as fuck
##unvote
##vote acro
What's going on atm?A BKE bandwagon.
I didn't like acrofales and VE after this.
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Vivex is blatantly misrepresenting the facts.
I explain, pretty clearly, that I voted for myself so that the voting thread would show up on my Subscribed Threads list. This thread was already on there from me posting in this thread several times even before the game started, but I had no reason to post in the vote-thread until the game had started, and so it wasn't on my subscribed threads list when the game started.
I've explained this in two separate posts here
On June 30 2012 18:33 VisceraEyes wrote:
BM, I did that specifically to get the thread in my subscribed threads. Come on, sir.
Reverse-WIFOM? Really?
and here....
On June 30 2012 18:41 VisceraEyes wrote:
Hey I'm the first to admit that sometimes, lynching VE is the optimal play. That's not what my self-vote was intended to signify my desire for, however. I literally posted in the thread so it would auto-subscribe.
So I don't know why you're saying that I "haven't defended myself" on the matter when I clearly have. Get your facts right, seriously.
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We should all be voting for BillMurray to ensure town victory.
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On July 02 2012 00:22 VisceraEyes wrote:
I prefer a BM lynch to BXE at this point. BXE I can believe is acting this way as town. BM I'm not so sure.
##Unvote: BXE
##Vote: BillMurray
Skidoosh. Let's get it done.
Glad to see you're putting your money where your mouth is.
Lets lynch BM!
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Ok, VE. I was sloppy with that one.
But I still don't like the bigger picture when I look at acrofales' behavior in that mess.
On July 02 2012 00:46 VisceraEyes wrote:
We should all be voting for BillMurray to ensure town victory.
I'll only be voting for BM if you state in Capslock and bold text that town should lynch you if BM flips green.
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Also, for an experienced player, you seem to disregard the kenpachi rule by completely ignoring mK.
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That doesn't make any sense Vivax, I'm town and whether BM flips green or not, lynching me would be an awful idea.
You're sloppy on a lot of ones. Acrofales called out BM because his logic was terrible and didn't make any sense, in the larger picture. If Acrofales is "scummily buddying" me, then that will continue to manifest as the game progresses...but as it stands now all I see is that he's right in calling out BillMurray, who by my estimation should be dying to the lynch today.
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EPT
