Newbie Mini Mafia XVI

On June 09 2012 11:51 Release wrote:
... he clearly isn't.

On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote:
(What case?)
Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours.

On June 09 2012 11:00 grush57 wrote:

Yeah, but absolutely nothing to talk about right now. There is no mayor vote so really nothing to talk about right now.

On June 09 2012 11:51 Release wrote:
grush57 must be scum because one of the rules of this game is "play to win" and well, he clearly isn't.

On June 09 2012 12:02 grush57 wrote:
Also, do you really think that I'm scum? Why the hell would a scum even post right now when 80% of people didn't even post yet.

On June 09 2012 12:05 grush57 wrote:


That was when there were 2 posts? 3?

On June 09 2012 12:07 grush57 wrote:
Yeah, but I'm not a lurker.

On June 09 2012 12:12 grush57 wrote:


Yeah but I want scum lynched not necessarily a lurker. However, if there are no clear scum then a lurker lynch would be best.

On June 09 2012 12:22 grush57 wrote:


So you don't want to lynch a scum. You want to lynch a lurker that will give no information. Ah, that isn't scummy.

On June 09 2012 12:26 grush57 wrote:

How would I know if it was a typo or not. And find me a post that said that.

On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote:
Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.

On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote:
Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.

On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote:

Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?

On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote:
I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen

On June 09 2012 12:56 grush57 wrote:


Oh and I think like 4 people posted so far(including me). You are just flooding the thread with 1 liners tunneling me, solstice has just been talking about lynching policy like me, and the same with KtheZ.

On June 09 2012 13:19 grush57 wrote:

I posted before them and I answered their questions of what I said, I'm not just blindly echoing their thoughts. Plus, with all the lurkers the only thing to talk about is lynching policy and the lurkers.

On June 09 2012 13:31 grush57 wrote:
You just posted exactly what I posted 2 pages ago. Seriously, stop saying stuff every townie sais.

On June 09 2012 11:51 Release wrote:
Depending on how many people are lurking and how many people appear scummy, we have to adjust our strategy.
Right now, Grush is appearing incredibly scummy, but we can't let the lurkers off the hook.

Grush, pick up your game. To be honest, grush57 must be scum because one of the rules of this game is "play to win" and well, he clearly isn't.

On June 09 2012 12:08 Release wrote:

There are many things to talk about though and your defeatist, lets-not-talk attitude does not help town.
Those 2/3 posts at least had content in them. Yours was simply trying to discourage discussion.

On June 09 2012 13:11 Release wrote:

Less than 50% of my posts against you have been 1 liners. 1 liners are not necessarily useless if the point is clear. My points are pretty obvious. And instead of responding to my analyses, you are attacking my posts literally, and not the content. Stop avoiding the content.

Hardly; you have been echoing their thoughts and providing useless "lynch scum > lynch lurker."

I don't think i'm tunneling. It's only 4 hours in, there's a good chance that the other 5 are working/sleeping. But you have been here and because of that, i feel that it is more useful to be focusing on you, rather than people who will take hours to respond to my posts that will have been buried in the thread by non-related posts.

I haven't forgotten about the lurkers, if that's what you're getting at. We just don't need to deal with the lurkers right at this moment. When 24 hours comes and goes, i'll start dealing with what to do with the lurkers, but right now, dealing with you is much more important.

On June 09 2012 13:19 grush57 wrote:

I posted before them and I answered their questions of what I said, I'm not just blindly echoing their thoughts. Plus, with all the lurkers the only thing to talk about is lynching policy and the lurkers.

On June 09 2012 13:40 Release wrote:

"Yeah, and that's why i haven't posted until this moment. But since you insist to not read what i have already said, i feel that you need to read this in order to see how i want to lynch
"

You told me to write that did you not? I told you that everyone (who wants to appear townie) will post the same thing did I not? That why i included the bolded phrase, to show that only you wanted to read what i wrote. That only you wanted me to make the extra post that would inevitably clog up the thread.

Answer me this: Why is it only you who wants me to make a post to answer a question that has already been answered?

On June 09 2012 13:31 grush57 wrote:
You just posted exactly what I posted 2 pages ago. Seriously, stop saying stuff every townie sais.

On June 10 2012 05:21 grush57 wrote:


LOL, my answer was the sarcastic remark...

On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote:
Allright, I've read this boring discussion between grush and release and I hope I can give some insight as to what my opinions are.

As a first time player I probably would have made the same mistake grush did (I don't know if this is his first time but w/e) and say that there is nothing to talk about on the first day, but as Release said that obviously puts us in a bad situation when no one is posting at all. Also the content of grush's posts has been pretty lackluster but again, seeing as this is a noob-game I think that's something we have to expect. The

This being said I think Release is being way too hard on the guy, just after a couple of posts by grush he says "grush is appearing incredibly scummy" which I think is very harsh to say this early on in the game.

After this discussion ended we tasted some new blood in the thread - Lazermonkey and Zen man. While not being able to get a good "read" on any of you two (you not having posted much yet) some of Lazermonkey's comments on the Release-grush discussion seemed strange to me.



He does not say that it is "fine if people lurk". My interpretation of the sentances is that he does not know what to post about and then proposes the subject of why people are not posting and offers his explanation (being that the game just started, people might not be by the computer and even if they are they may be watching MLG).


In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.

Lastly, I like the way Lazermonkey explained his stance on lurkers (two different kinds) however I don't think you can justifiably apply the one about posting stuff with no actual content so early on in the game and I ultimately agree that grush has been changing his stance on whether it is good or not to lynch lurkers.

On June 09 2012 19:21 Lazermonkey wrote:
grush57 you are confusing the hell out of me atm. Yes, your comment about ''Nothing to talk about'' is scummy but that's not all. You're filter is already 1 page long, but all your posts are very short one or two liners. Literally you don't have a singel post that's more than 2 lines. Most of your filter is in fact quotes which makes it look longer than it is in fact.

Your second post is this:

So this doesn't add anything to the discussion really. If I understand this correctly, you think that because you are posting (which at the point isn't true at all because you only posted once before but w/e) it makes you look townie and that s0Lstice and Release should instead focus at the people that havn't posted yet. Long story short: you think that lurkers are scummy.

So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.

Some hours later you post this. You clearly don't want to be viewed as a lurker. Still you post only very short posts, wouldn't it be more effective to post longer posts with better content if you wanted to apear non-lurker? Instead of telling everyone that you aren't a lurker?

Even later, Unless you find a clear scum(this is on D1, aka hard to find clear scum) you are fine with lynching lurkers


Once again you change your mind. Lurkers gives no information. I take this as lynching lurkers are terrible I guess.
The last post before you are off.

So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?

You are all over the place atm. You don't take a clear stance with your opinion on lurkers but flip your opinion like 4 times. And you also seem very concerned with the possibilty of being a lurker. It's really simple. If you post good stuff, you will not be considered a lurker. There is no point in trying to convince us wheter oor not you are one.

FoS: grush57

On June 10 2012 05:47 s0Lstice wrote:
Grush, the best way to defend yourself is to hunt scum. Spend your time doing that, not wasting all of your time responding to Release.

On June 10 2012 04:54 s0Lstice wrote:
Very happy to see that the discussion has picked up.

Now I want to talk about ha236

Let's look at his post on grush and LazerMonkey.



This is a soft defense of grush, based on the sentiment that a first time player makes mistakes, yet you don't care enough to check if this really is his first game? How is that 'w/e' when your defense of him relies on qualifying the mistakes he is making as first time player mistakes?

Then you talk about LaserMonkey..


Very loud contradiction. If Lazermonkey's comments are strange then why are you agreeing with them? Why did you defend grush if you think Lazermonkey has something there?

##FoS: ha236

On June 10 2012 06:08 grush57 wrote:

That post was useless. Don't give information to the enemy? Wow, never thought of that.

On June 10 2012 06:16 ShiaoPi wrote:
Oh wow, thread got really active while I was cheering on the Germans.

What I would suggest right now is to stop tunneling grush for the time and add some pressure to ha236. I am still waiting for answers regarding my question and his post is basically the statement that he is ready to jump on grush if he gets to be the primary lynch candidate.

Not saying that I am clearing grush from the suspicions but he cannot contribute that much if he keeps defending, give him some leeway until we really have to consolidate on a lynch and see what he can cook up.

On June 10 2012 06:42 grush57 wrote:
I'm not even going to bother with you anymore.
I don't think you are scum though, a bit bold for scum.
Hyaa and the one lurker left for scum team!

On June 10 2012 08:04 ha236 wrote:



I feel like you're that implying starting the bandwagon (coming up with a argument that other people seem plausible) is a bad thing. If so, what's the meaning of talking at all?

On June 10 2012 08:52 s0Lstice wrote:
ha236,

sharing your opinions is fine, even if that opinion is "i'm not sure on him yet."

You however did a play by play of Lazermonkey....kicking it off with how you felt his posts looked strange, continued to build a sort-of case?, and then agreed with his findings.

Your thoughts are a problem because they contradict themselves. I'm pretty much convinced that you are the perfect candidate for us to lynch D1.

##Vote:ha236

On June 10 2012 09:03 s0Lstice wrote:
Now as far as grush is concerned...

The only thing in his filter that raises my eyebrows is the 'nothing to talk about' post. The rest is neutral mostly, because it's OMGUS tit for tat defense against Release.

I want to see what he does when he doesn't spend every free minute defending himself.

On June 10 2012 09:17 ha236 wrote:




What's the deal with some of the players only caring about the opinions of a few others? It's kind of cute though.

On June 10 2012 09:27 s0Lstice wrote:


Really? Because it seems like every time I refresh the thread you have a new post going after him. You are pressuring him pretty hard. He feels the need to respond to every single post, with OMGUS or something else mostly useless. I grant this is bad play, as he should have disengaged from you a lot sooner than he did.

The point is the read on him is not strong, as his filter is full of garbage. This can be a scum-tell, yes, but there is also town motivation for his behavior. As town, he is incredulous that you are pursuing him so hard...this explains the sarcasm, the snippy remarks etc. He erroneously feels his best move is to match you hit for hit, and this will help confirm him as a town read.

He's been told to post something that contributes, and what he does will be good information. It will certainly be better than what we have on him now. If it's not, then hell yea let's lynch him.

On June 11 2012 02:31 grush57 wrote:

K, we all know ha is mafia and that post pretty much tells who the scum team is.
Besides defending a suspicious player and being very suspicious, he isn't scummy to me.
Random ass numbers. He isn't making a bold move and a clear opinion on things. Very scummy. As town you have to stick to your guns like Release.That's why Release is my only 100% town read. Also, all the people somewhat defending me right now are town as well, as I know I'm town. The mafia are going to push me as I'm the most suspicious and somewhat defending Ha like KtheZ is.

On June 10 2012 21:56 ha236 wrote:


This part stands out to me. You're basing your suspiscion on the fact that solstice and Release have said so?
I might have misunderstood this but the reason people think I'm suspicious is because I've softly defended grush. If I havn't allready let me go over it again; I don't think grush is scum. In my opinion there is not enough information to decide this, basically the only thing grush has posted about is trying to defend himself against Release's relentless nitpicking of his posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you overestimate the value of that conversation. Anyone in their right minds understands that encouraging the rest of the players to not post (not exposing any information) so you're stuck at square one for the whole game pretty much labels you as mafia instantly. It's way to simple to lynch him because of this. He felt obligied to defend himself since he didn't want to end up in the situation (that he's in now anyway) where he's look suspicious because he hasn't answered peoples questions.

On June 11 2012 04:20 ha236 wrote:


Your ignorance is hilarious, I've said countless times that I agreed with him on that one point but thought the rest of the post was strange. Why is it you continue to bring this up? Who are you trying to fool?

Perhaps you should read what you just quoted/wrote. I said that I cannot decide anything based on that discussion because it doesn't provide enough information for me which is exactly what I've allready said.

About the voting... At this my attention is on Release and solstice sseeing as they insist on allways bringing up my post on Lazermonkey, how I contradict myself (which is wrong), and instantly after this I'm #2 on the scum meter? I might be missing something here but the logic behind their decisions are to me very lacking.

Also it annoys me when people are stating that others are 100% town because they stick to their opinions? This is the pinnacle of ignorance, there's an expression that goes "Don't judge a book by it's cover" which aplies nicely here. "Sticking to your guns" is what tunneling someone is all about, an informed decision is made by taking information from many sources and analyzing and compiling them to a well thought-out thesis.
Ex. Having one source on the source-reference page in an essay will most definately net you an F.

On June 10 2012 06:03 Release wrote:

To check if this really is Grush's first game is a tremendous waste of time. There are far too many game to check. (i believe we have 55 regular mafias and 15 newb ones.)
To me it looks like he is trying to buddy up to grush but i can't be sure of that.
I agree; playing the noob card as reasoning is too much assumptions.

It looks more like the two quoted posts are strange (and putting words in grush's mouth) but the agreement is that grush has been wishy-washy.

I think ha is setting himself to jump on the bandwagon if there is one, or to avoid starting one if there isn't.

On June 11 2012 05:29 Vivax wrote:
Here's an inofficial vote count somewhat including the order.

grush: Release
ha236: s0lstice, Release
The_Zen_Man: Lazermonkey
grush57: KTheZ
s0lstice: ha236
Release: ha236

Guys, we're at close danger of a no-lynch. I'm not very satisfied with ha236 as option cause I find his first posts regarding Lazermonkey and Release to be true, but on the other hand he didn't make a single case except for OMGUS ones now in the end and instead only spent time defending grush and himself.

It was a pretty bad day 1 imo, and it can get even worse if we will have to further lurk in the dark, you'll have my vote on ha236 for the sake of the lynch, but be aware of the fact that I'll gladly switch it for any other majority.

##vote ha236

@ s0lstice

odd analysis? To me town play seems to be messed up atm and you should actually thank me for getting a bit of transparency in here. Every single and good player would make such a summary in a case before going on and accusing single persons. I doubt one would want to play with a narrow sight.

On June 11 2012 06:51 ha236 wrote:
Oh well guys, looks like I'm done for. When you realize you've made the wrong decision consider my posts about Release and s0Lstice and their flawed logic trying to trick you all.

On June 11 2012 07:08 s0Lstice wrote:
We do have an hour or so. I'm not loving my vote on ha236 anymore If we want to vote for Zen_Man I will switch.

Something that has been bugging me about ha236 is that he has been constant in his defense of Grush, he even doubled down. I find it difficult to believe that a scum ha236 would attract attention by tying himself to one of the most controversial people in the thread. He could have just as easily went after a grush57 lynch, it would have been easy.

Very few other people have agreed with me on him as well. I think it would be prudent to go elsewhere.

## Unvote

On June 12 2012 07:39 KtheZ wrote:


To address what struck you as weird:
I was originally willing to switch my vote to ha if there was a no-lynch potentially in sight. However, when I left there were 5 votes on ha, which was enough majority to create a ha lynch.

On June 09 2012 11:08 s0Lstice wrote:
If everyone played with that logic, the thread would be empty forever.

People not talking is something to talk about, obviously.

What do you think of my comments on tunneling?

On June 09 2012 12:28 s0Lstice wrote:
Lynching all liars is dicey. In a newb game I'm betting any lies we find will be unintentional. If you are referring to a blue claim, there will be plenty of context to interpret it if/when it happens. There is no need for a policy application there, just reasoning.

Lynching lurkers is still risky, but the chance of hitting scum is definitely there. As I said, the stakes are high, as every mislynch is painful. If the lurker in question flips green, then at least we have rid ourselves of a useless townie. This is why I still advocate it. People who are talking give us content to work with, and in the absence of a compelling case, we could do a lot worse than lynching a crappy townie/maybe get lucky hitting scum.

That said, it's a worst case scenario. The onus is on us to smoke out the scum so we don't have to resort to the policy lynch.

On June 09 2012 12:50 s0Lstice wrote:
I'm out for the night.

There has been some stuff said on policy. People who haven't posted yet should post their thoughts on what was discussed. I want to be done with this policy stuff sooner rather than later.

Also, I want to hear what others think of Release and grush.

My opinion is that Grush's comment on having nothing to talk about was weird as hell. Release has done the talking here so I won't repeat. Grush, I will be watching to see what you do when there's more content to work with.

On June 10 2012 04:54 s0Lstice wrote:
Very happy to see that the discussion has picked up.

Now I want to talk about ha236

Let's look at his post on grush and LazerMonkey.



This is a soft defense of grush, based on the sentiment that a first time player makes mistakes, yet you don't care enough to check if this really is his first game? How is that 'w/e' when your defense of him relies on qualifying the mistakes he is making as first time player mistakes?

Then you talk about LaserMonkey..


Very loud contradiction. If Lazermonkey's comments are strange then why are you agreeing with them? Why did you defend grush if you think Lazermonkey has something there?

##FoS: ha236

On June 10 2012 04:56 s0Lstice wrote:
Also Vivax, I've seen your town play, and lurking is not it. Your silence is extra suspicious.

On June 10 2012 08:52 s0Lstice wrote:
ha236,

sharing your opinions is fine, even if that opinion is "i'm not sure on him yet."

You however did a play by play of Lazermonkey....kicking it off with how you felt his posts looked strange, continued to build a sort-of case?, and then agreed with his findings.

Your thoughts are a problem because they contradict themselves. I'm pretty much convinced that you are the perfect candidate for us to lynch D1.

##Vote:ha236

On June 10 2012 09:03 s0Lstice wrote:
Now as far as grush is concerned...

The only thing in his filter that raises my eyebrows is the 'nothing to talk about' post. The rest is neutral mostly, because it's OMGUS tit for tat defense against Release.

I want to see what he does when he doesn't spend every free minute defending himself.

On June 10 2012 09:12 s0Lstice wrote:
I think ha236 is a better candidate. That one post flashed red big time. Lots of words that started on one end of the opinion spectrum and ended on the other. Trying to appear useful, but really the conclusion is errr I dunno.

I will be pushing his lynch, but I will not do so at the expense of the majority. If I get traction, good. If not, then I will wait on ha236 to insure the day 1 lynch.

On June 10 2012 09:27 s0Lstice wrote:


Really? Because it seems like every time I refresh the thread you have a new post going after him. You are pressuring him pretty hard. He feels the need to respond to every single post, with OMGUS or something else mostly useless. I grant this is bad play, as he should have disengaged from you a lot sooner than he did.

The point is the read on him is not strong, as his filter is full of garbage. This can be a scum-tell, yes, but there is also town motivation for his behavior. As town, he is incredulous that you are pursuing him so hard...this explains the sarcasm, the snippy remarks etc. He erroneously feels his best move is to match you hit for hit, and this will help confirm him as a town read.

He's been told to post something that contributes, and what he does will be good information. It will certainly be better than what we have on him now. If it's not, then hell yea let's lynch him.

On June 11 2012 04:04 s0Lstice wrote:
KtheZ is rocketing up the scum charts.

We lynch to kill scum. Period. Factoring in what information our target will give to decide our lynch candidate is ludicrous. You suggesting it is scummy.

People have already talked about your percentage nonsense, so I won't rehash beyond saying that it paints you in a very bad light. If you are aiming to get lynched, keep doing it. We want words, not numbers.

On June 11 2012 04:51 s0Lstice wrote:


This isn't an essay. Often there will only be one big scum-tell post, a smoking gun if you will, off which to build the case. Your first post was mostly fluff, where you attack a player for a bad read, pick that read apart, and then agree with the read. You can get mad all you want, but it was a contradiction.

That said, I don't see your one post on Lazermonkey as the only thing counting against you. We are hours from the deadline, and all you've done of note is defend grush, and accuse the people accusing you.

On June 11 2012 06:24 s0Lstice wrote:
Alright so the case on Zen_Man

He is taking a firm stance on grush by voting for him, and has been consistent with his views on him as I see it. He does not provide any reasoning behind his suspicions, true. He really should have. That said, the reasons for grush's scummyness have been discussed quite a lot, and agreeing with them (parroting/bandwagoning) by itself is not dead red scummy. If he agrees, he agrees. As far as his exaggerations, I feel this is under the OMGUS umbrella as well. The bottom line is I see fledgling efforts to hunt scum, and I want to see more. As of right now, he wouldn't draw my vote.

On June 11 2012 23:52 s0Lstice wrote:
This thread is lifeless I'll be sharing something I've been working on closer to the start of day 2, in case I'm deaded shortly after.

On June 12 2012 17:41 ShiaoPi wrote:


Think hard about that "mindless blabber" and you know what he was trying to do, or go read his filter in his last game and it should be obvious. If you are trying to make a case against Release, you better post a good one and not some tidbits between each line how "flawed" his logic is.




So Vivax, grush and me are not in the townie group? O_o

On June 12 2012 17:45 ShiaoPi wrote:
@KtheZ: At least you make an effort of defending yourself, but unfortunately you are still not convincing me. Your posts still lack content and as solstice pointed out nicely you went with the flow of the thread.
Furthermore I can understand that RL keeps you from being around at lynchtime, but seeing 5 votes on ha is not really an excuse to not be there if you offer your vote to switch if needed.

On June 13 2012 04:18 ha236 wrote:


This is basically the way Release has been responding to my posts also.

On June 13 2012 02:37 KtheZ wrote:
I was waiting for grush to confirm this rather than him joking.

A reply will be provided in due time, maybe an hour or 3

On June 10 2012 02:19 ha236 wrote:


Seriously? That's the point that stands out the most to you in my post?

You highlighting it being the "first worthwhile thing" makes it seem to me as though you're implying that therefore it cannot be boring which I find hard to understand. However, it was boring because both of them were in my opinion just going around in circles throughout three pages of posts.

On June 10 2012 03:07 ha236 wrote:


This isn't the point I am making. He says he "wouldn't be surprised" if this were the case, not that he is sure that it is the case and from what I understand he isn't making this assumption based on his "readings", rather a motto that players that don't post alot are usually mafia (which, to me isn't very logical).

On June 10 2012 04:54 ha236 wrote:


I didn't say that he wasn't thinking it, I said that he wasn't sure. As for why he said it, probably for the reason of generating discussion - which everyone is so keen on doing on day one from what I've gathered.

On June 10 2012 08:04 ha236 wrote:


Because, like you said, I didn't care enough to check it, why would I want to defend anyone this early in the game. Since this is a noob game I assume noob mistakes will be made.



Obviously I meant that I disagreed with many of the points he made while agreeing on the big picture "issue".



I feel like you're that implying starting the bandwagon (coming up with a argument that other people seem plausible) is a bad thing. If so, what's the meaning of talking at all?

On June 10 2012 08:08 ha236 wrote:


This was useful.

On June 10 2012 08:13 ha236 wrote:
EBWOP (this acronym correct?)



I misread, didn't see "avoid" in your post, for some reason. So I'll instead ask why you don't think I am.

On June 10 2012 08:21 ha236 wrote:


I do not know which question you are reffering to as there is no questionmark in your previous post in reponse to my post. Just out of curiousity, why do you want to "add some pressure" to me?

On June 10 2012 08:31 ha236 wrote:


Why are you not interested in everyone's opinion of the matter?

On June 10 2012 08:37 ha236 wrote:


You criticize my post for not being extremely tilted to one side, whether he is "scummy" or not. Since I did not have such an opinion I posted what I posted. You would rather I posted none of my thoughts? Because I thought mafia was about sharing your opinions and trying to work towards finding out who is who.

On June 10 2012 09:17 ha236 wrote:




What's the deal with some of the players only caring about the opinions of a few others? It's kind of cute though.

On June 10 2012 09:18 ha236 wrote:
EBWOP:

Especially Release and solstice, second time they confront one another in this manner.

On June 10 2012 21:56 ha236 wrote:


This part stands out to me. You're basing your suspiscion on the fact that solstice and Release have said so?
I might have misunderstood this but the reason people think I'm suspicious is because I've softly defended grush. If I havn't allready let me go over it again; I don't think grush is scum. In my opinion there is not enough information to decide this, basically the only thing grush has posted about is trying to defend himself against Release's relentless nitpicking of his posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you overestimate the value of that conversation. Anyone in their right minds understands that encouraging the rest of the players to not post (not exposing any information) so you're stuck at square one for the whole game pretty much labels you as mafia instantly. It's way to simple to lynch him because of this. He felt obligied to defend himself since he didn't want to end up in the situation (that he's in now anyway) where he's look suspicious because he hasn't answered peoples questions.

On June 11 2012 04:20 ha236 wrote:


Your ignorance is hilarious, I've said countless times that I agreed with him on that one point but thought the rest of the post was strange. Why is it you continue to bring this up? Who are you trying to fool?

Perhaps you should read what you just quoted/wrote. I said that I cannot decide anything based on that discussion because it doesn't provide enough information for me which is exactly what I've allready said.

About the voting... At this my attention is on Release and solstice sseeing as they insist on allways bringing up my post on Lazermonkey, how I contradict myself (which is wrong), and instantly after this I'm #2 on the scum meter? I might be missing something here but the logic behind their decisions are to me very lacking.

Also it annoys me when people are stating that others are 100% town because they stick to their opinions? This is the pinnacle of ignorance, there's an expression that goes "Don't judge a book by it's cover" which aplies nicely here. "Sticking to your guns" is what tunneling someone is all about, an informed decision is made by taking information from many sources and analyzing and compiling them to a well thought-out thesis.
Ex. Having one source on the source-reference page in an essay will most definately net you an F.

On June 11 2012 04:21 ha236 wrote:
EBWOP:

##Vote: s0Lstice

On June 11 2012 04:56 ha236 wrote:


Another show of your ignorance, anyway in the quoted post there is nothing about you agreeing with me on the topic we're talking about, rather on the grush topic.

Of course you think solstice has been helpful, you and him share the same dumb logic. I am aware that s0Lstice was the first to "raise suspicion" about me and I was sure that someone as superficial as you would comment on that instantly, further proving my point that you havn't come up with any real reason as to why I am suspicious.

Up until now my suspicion, based on your dumb logic and lacking reasoning, has been leaning toward solsice, yes, but with this last post I'll have to change my vote to you, as suggested.

##unvote: s0Lstice
##vote: Release

On June 10 2012 06:03 Release wrote:

To check if this really is Grush's first game is a tremendous waste of time. There are far too many game to check. (i believe we have 55 regular mafias and 15 newb ones.)
To me it looks like he is trying to buddy up to grush but i can't be sure of that.
I agree; playing the noob card as reasoning is too much assumptions.

It looks more like the two quoted posts are strange (and putting words in grush's mouth) but the agreement is that grush has been wishy-washy.

I think ha is setting himself to jump on the bandwagon if there is one, or to avoid starting one if there isn't.

On June 12 2012 12:09 ha236 wrote:
Still waiting for Release to make a defense for any of my posts back at the end of day 1. There's just been mindless blabber in his posts on the night, he openly declines to answer my questions and no one else seems to give a damn? Seems strange to me.

On June 12 2012 23:37 ha236 wrote:
It still baffles me that people chose to be so ignorant around Release, he is openly refusing to defend himself against anything I (seeing as I'm the only one pressuring him) have said.

That being said I see you all would like some raw opinion so let's take a look at KtheZ:

Everyone is giving me crap for not having posted "cases" in a while, has no one looked as KtheZ's filter? There's one or two posts about grush in the very early stages of the game but other than that there's nothing but posts summerizing other peoples opinion's and defending himself against peoples accusations. I by no means think this is a bad thing, but it doesn't give us (or atleast me) alot to go on. There's too few 'post chains' that are actually started by you, meaning your honest, fresh opinion that people can factor in to their reads.

On June 13 2012 04:29 ha236 wrote:


Well, my case is kind of spread out over many posts and since no one even seems to care about raising suspicion towards him I see no reason to compile anything at the moment.

On June 13 2012 04:34 ha236 wrote:


Allright, I'll do it on d3 since there are more pressing matters (KtheZ vs grush) atm

On June 14 2012 12:52 KtheZ wrote:


Why would you doubt the claims?
It is quite a farfetched thought to claim that mafia made a fake DT claim and a fake roleblock claim as well.
Your post attempts to discredit the confirmed DT and townie by throwing out incredibly implausible claims, none of which are true.
Plus, in the outlandish case that both me and ShiaoPi are lying, that means my confirmation of Supermonkey would also be invalid. And thus, you would be left with nobody confirmed town.
In this situation, why would you specifically tunnel me and ShiaoPi?

The remaining scum definitely lies within you, ha, and vivax. For tomorrow I would probably lynch ha as he is the most probable scum at this point.

On June 14 2012 14:20 KtheZ wrote:
You're accusing 3 people of being mafia now; me, shiaopi, and lazermonkey

On June 15 2012 02:05 ha236 wrote:


Well, with this reasoning he would sink on your scum meter... Everything mafia do is cause confusion and this would add to the choas.

On June 15 2012 06:22 Vivax wrote:
Ok. I have analyzed ha2's posts especially concentrating on his voting behavior.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342960&currentpage=13#247

Here voted s0lstice after defending from Release, without posting any case against s0lstice.

Then he votes Release omgus style, but only after he voted for s0lstice for whatever reason.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342960&currentpage=13#247

Here that pattern repeats again. He defends from Release, and votes for grush based on something which has been repeated over and over by whole town.
On the other hand, there's really not that much to say about grush, his play was...original. The point isn't as strong, but the repeating pattern 'make cases against 1, vote 2 for no reason' is kinda suspicious.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=494&topic_id=342960

The last post.

He has been playing in incredibly inconsistent way regarding his very few votes, while mantaining a style trying to post as few as he can. He only starts engaging into discussion when there are townies pressuring him, and even then he keeps his posts as short as possible.

Please consider what I wrote just now if I die tonight. If I survive, I will reevaluate the case against him with more information.
For sure he's a lategame lurker when there is so much information available. He didn't post any lengthy cases yet, just defending and bandwagoning.

On June 15 2012 07:58 KtheZ wrote:


Release your support in the consecutive mislynches and your tunneling makes me very sad that I am in your sights.

On June 15 2012 07:36 Release wrote:

Tbh, the death will be either Kthez (DT) or myself(VT), since we've pretty much split the town into two sides

Shiaopi + lazer + kthez
myself + ha + vivax

If i die, Kthez dies the next day, understand?

Day 3: I would expect that Kthez will have another night "check" to report to everyone so pay close attention to what he says and whether or not it makes sense. I'm just going to put his out there: to whoever the real DT is, if we have one, is do not check my alignment. Check either Kthez or Ha. Those checks would provide the most information to us.

One thing that Kthez might say if he doesn't die is that he was RBed. I would look at this with suspicion because it is just an excuse to not have to substantiate his claim to be a DT.

Nowing that Kthez hasn't made a big pre-death post (yet, this one i would wait until 3:59 PST), it probably means that he is hiding / has something to hide, and is pretty much what zen_man and Grush did because we lynched them (because they were acting scummy). This would be no different.

That being said, a detailed analysis of whom you (kthez) suspect in your pre-death post may change my mind, as well as that of Ha and whoever else doubts the claims.

What i want to ask you all now, is who are your picks for the scumteam as of now? I think i have made it pretty clear that i am heavily favoring Kthez + Shiaopi, for reasons already mentioned,

Or, If Kthez's "final" post manages to convince me (it would have to be quite convincing indeed), i would have to retract my statements about him and shiaopi and go with ha and lazer (I honestly just don't believe that lazer could be town while vivax is not)

Really think about this question. I don't want half-assed answers like X and Y because OMG they Scum. Provide reasoning (not necessarily analysis, i made this post way to late in the day to have time for that) and make sure that if required, you can back it up with analysis (if questioned)

You'll only have abotu 20 minutes after i finish this post to answer the question but i really do want as many people as possible to answer it. And one more thing; read this whole post.

Kthez, you better watch your back.

On June 12 2012 21:44 Lazermonkey wrote:
The case on Vivax

Vivax post count is okay given that he he missed basically the first 24 hours or so of the game so note that I'm not actually usuing his lurking as a reason for his suspicion but rather the content in his posts.He have been playing insanely passive up untill this point. You should all check out his filter. This guy has during D1 pretty much not taken a clear stance anywhere.
+ Show Spoiler +
The first post by Vivax. Note that this is a long post. Note what he is saying. Well, what is he saying? Release is pushing grush hard but still he think it's good. grush is strange but he could very well be town. He is willing to lynch grush, at least under some circumstances. What did he REALLY say here? Remember my first post where I talked about different types of lurkers? This is the type who writes hellofapost and still very little content.
+ Show Spoiler +
So here is a summary post. Contains our opinions about grush. Not his own tho.

+ Show Spoiler +
So he does not like ha236 lynch. I'm okay with that. I'm even okay with that he says he is willing to lynch into Ha236 if he needs to, in order to archive majority. What I'm NOT okey with is that he still doesn't give an option. He is fast on on dismiss both grush and ha236 as targets but what does he think himself? Still he havn't given one scumread himself.
+ Show Spoiler +
His first real case on someone. This time he gives some actual opnions, which is good. However, why the FoS? Why not a vote? He first agrees with alot of my points about Zen_Man and also brings up a couple of new ones. All in all, the whole posts are filled with accusations yet he only FoS him. I feel like he is testing the waters here.
+ Show Spoiler +
Strange post. You said earlier that in case of majority on Zen_Man, you would vote him. Yet you don't. Contradiction here. Vivax finally decides to vote Zen_Man anyway but only after both Ha236 and s0lstice have laid down their votes.
+ Show Spoiler +
The tone is this post is sooo... I don't know, different? You finally give out reads. In the end of your post tho, you say you have no decisive scumreads tho. You still vote grush right away. Think about how hard it was for him to vote Zen_Man last night even tho he had loads of suspicion on him and compare to this. wtf. You would also fine with lynching any of theese 3. I feel you're almost wanting to lynch for the sake of lynching here. We don't lynch because of that, we lynch because we want to kill scum. At least one of these persons must be townie but you are still okay with lynching any of them. And your motivations for lynching any of them is kinda meh. Your problems with both Ha and KTheZ seems to be their activity level and not the content of their posts.

Overall, this guy has basically taken no strong stances anywhere. He makes huge posts with little to no content. All players he have put up this ''weak'' pressure on are those who are already under heavy fire. First grush, then Ha236, then Zen_Man and lastly KTheZ. With all these players(maybe not Zen_Man tho) he basically says ''I'm willing to lynch if necesary but I'm not sure he is scum''. This is classic bandwagon play.
##Vote: Vivax

On June 15 2012 08:23 ShiaoPi wrote:
EBWOP:



Release just vote him and Vivax off >_> There is only one DT in the setup

On June 15 2012 08:26 Vivax wrote:
Meh, still played well enough to get this far, and most of you weren't believing I was scum until this :d .

GG however, Lazer. Watched through both urs and ShiaoPi's posts, and ShiaoPi looked like he gave more DT tells.

The breadcrumb post Release quoted is also the post which made me think you might be DT.

On June 15 2012 08:32 Vivax wrote:
It's ironic cause without grush's weird posts KTheZ wouldn't have roleclaimed.

You should thank him, he carried you.

On June 18 2012 03:17 EchelonTee wrote:

I suppose tunneling for reactions isn't a bad idea, but to ha236 it probably looked like you were going to mislynch him into the ground. Going for reaction based plays is pretty common but you have to execute them right; it would've been tricky to explain to people how you didn't think ha was scum anymore despite being on his ass all game. Ha236 would also probably be completely demoralized and unmotivated to try and find out the final scum. And didn't you breadcrumb "Don't worry KtheZ", indicating that you thought he was town? That makes a bit more sense now, though.

I don't see the breadcrumb. Where is it? It just looks like LM made a big case on Vivax. Just because a player comes out with a big case on someone that they hadn't previously commented on, doesn't mean that it's a DT tell.