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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
Look, the reason I was so confident the RB would claim today is that as the SK nothing is different from being a Vigi mechanically regarding what happened N1. Scum must have RBed me and shot the SK (me), as I explained. The town RB must have RBed Hyaach-- so he knows that scum RBed me N1, and that I didn't deliver the scum kp. It's PLAUSIBLE that scum blocked Hyaach and the townie RBed me, but why would scum RB Hyaach and shoot me? They obviously shot me.
Like, wtf, town RB. Way to not save me. Unless you figured out it was in fact me who was the SK.
But seriously, only one claimed RB today? I didn't fakeclaim the RB N1, and neither did Hyaach. Like, we can agree 100% that I was RBed N1. And there's NO WAY Hyaach fakeclaimed his RB.
So there are two RBErs.
Why is there only one RB from last night? Did the RBer
oh
ohhhhhh
Scum RBed VE and shot him! they stacked RB and shot, just like they did N1.
ok so this means the town RBer RBed Artanis. OR ARTANIS IS THE SCUM RBER.
WHY IS THERE ONLY ONE RB CLAIM FROM LAST NIGHT? Think about it.
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On June 12 2012 01:47 Snarfs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 09:08 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Ah, so we'd need 4 roleblockers to solve the puzzle then. One to block Hyaach, one to block scum KP, and one to block you, the fourth being Hyaach himself as JK. That or 3 roleblockers and an SK. Both sound unlikely. I hate voting based on setup speculation given our 'success' with it so far. If you're speaking the truth, I urge the RBer to come forward. I've had a change of heart regarding not revealing my blue read as I feel there's a strong possibility he's red. I present to you: Snarfs. On June 05 2012 15:54 Snarfs wrote:@VE, In one sentence you claim that: Town's aim needs to be lengthening the game, not shortening it. That's why we aim for scum every single lynch, because every scum lynch increases the number of days the game lasts. Yet you follow it up with this: Also I'm going to suggest we policy-lynch Katina if she doesn't prove her worth to town by providing us with some sort of content to be held accountable for if we are unable to find a suitable scummy candidate. Care to explain? Is Katina really that unhelpful as town? It was pretty clear to me that this was pressure on lurkers to make them post more rather than actually trying to get her lynched. For the rest he also posted a bunch of questions yet didn't really chime in much until figuring out where people stood. Joined the BH bandwagon until BH started posting seriously, and suddenly went full on against Hyaach, whose case he had against him was very weak. Just trying to get 2 things here: 1) More information about Katina 2) Some sort of reaction from VE, even if it was just in the form of more information on Katina. Obviously, I was provided neither.
I can see that as a viable town reason, though the viable scum reason also remains intact.
Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:32 Snarfs wrote:
I've reread the thread and I still believe that Hyaach is the best lynch tomorrow.
Look at what he's done:
a) He hasn't contributed to any scumhunting. He hasn't asked questions and he hasn't used his vote to pressure people.
b) His vote on Pandain seemed very forced, as Navillus and I have both mentioned.
c) He blames his lack of content on the time zone difference. There were a ton of things he could have talked about when he was online. Not being online at the same time as others is not an excuse for not commenting on things that have happened in the game. a) That's not a mafia trait, that's a lazy player trait. b) A townie being pressured also does strange things. His vote looked a bit sheepish but not that strange. c) He never blamed his lack of content on the time zone difference. He he looked sheepish with his vote on Pandain because he woke up when the case already took off, which is a legitimate argument. It was the combination of the three things that made me think he was scum. His vote on Pandain encouraged me to look back through his filter and when I didn't see anything that indicated to me he was trying to find mafia, he jumped to the top of my scum list. The fact that he kept stalling in providing analysis on players was enough for me to keep my vote on him and remain convinced that he was scum.
His vote on Pandain was one of many. Did you feel it was neccesary to look back at all of them? It seems weird to me that it just so happens that Hyaach is the one to make you look back at it. As an experienced Mafia player, you should be well aware by now that people not scumhunting doesn't equal being scum, especially newbie townies. It's hard to provide analysis when your English isn't that good as his clearly wasn't. I find your reasons for calling him scum meek at best.
And yes, I'm aware I did vote for him at the end too. However, that's a lot later and based on different things.
Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 15:22 Snarfs wrote:
So just gave the thread a reread/skim through certain parts.
Sticking with my plan of not wasting an entire day cycle, assuming furer doesn't even come back, I'd like to hear some opinions on ghost_403. Then fails to name any examples of why Ghost is scummy or anything with his own opinion, despite claiming he just read the thread again. How come you didn't provide any reasoning here yourself? I try to get people to place their thoughts on players I find suspicious down in the thread. Ghost was a null read for me at the time (still is and I think there are higher scum targets for us to be going after) and by gauging other players' thoughts I work my opinion of both the player I'm interested in and the players who respond. Often town players respond well to such statements as it gives them an opportunity to try and find scum and I can usually cross people off my scum list. If I lead with my own thoughts then I just give the other players on opportunity to say, "Hmm yea, I agree with you, he is looking suspicious" which is often a null tell, as opposed to someone actually coming forward and being willing to offer thoughts on a player.
Wait, first you find Ghost suspicious, then you find him a null read? You can't cut the pie and eat it, too. By only posing questions and not giving your own opinions you make it very hard for other people to read your intentions, something that's good for mafia. Scum doesn't know who people think other people think are town and would love to know so they can kill that person. By not sharing your own opinion first you give yourself an opening to which you can adapt your opinion before you've ever given it. Townies usually aren't that cautious. Townies will give their own opinions, and people that sheep your opinion should be treated with extreme caution and can be a scumtell on its own.
Show nested quote +His defense on BH is absolutely damning with only ONE clause out. That being that he's the town RBer. On June 11 2012 06:15 Snarfs wrote:
First thing, I agree that we need to resolve the blazinghand situation and the furerkip/Palmar situation.
Here is how I see it (I've already stated this multiple times):
If blazing is the SK, then claiming vig is really dumb because he's gonna be shot by mafia later in the game. Almost guaranteed.
If blazing is scum, again I think it's really dumb to claim vig. However, multiple people have pointed out that he could be playing on our belief that mafia wouldn't do that, blah blah wifom.
That being said, something I don't understand is why he would be banking on a town RB to claim if he's not town. Like, if you're scum or SK why aren't you trying to control your own destiny? He's basically relying on another town member to save him or he knows he's going to be lynched.
Conclusion: Probably vigilante. This defense makes absolutely no sense. He's basically saying it's dumb for Blazing to claim vig unless he's town because anything else is wifom. Given the amount of roleblock roles available in the rolelist, it's not a stretch that he could claim being roleblocked, especially since vigis only get one shot and don't get their shots refunded even if they get roleblocked makes it very easy for him to claim it as scum. Calling someone like Blazinghand who loves to do funky stuff town simply because he claimed vigi is incredibly shortsighted. I also don't see how him claiming vig is going to get him shot if he's sk. He said he fired his only shot so mafia would think he's just a VT now, which would be great if he's SK. Given the amount of suspicion town still has it'd make sense for mafia not to shoot him. If he's SK he could've still been roleblocked too, and he could've expected that his kill on furer would go through. The claims on this last post show me you're incredibly convinced BH is town, meaning you know things I don't. Given your play so far I'd expect you to be smarter than this. Therefore you are scum or you're a RBer, in which case now is the time to claim. ##Vote: Snarfs Sorry to say I'm not the roleblocker. TL towns lynch people for dumb reasons all the time and I've been on those wagons a few times in the recent past. See MrZentor in Wheel of Fortune for a good example of what I'm talking about. See Pandain this game for another example. That's not to say they might not be mafia, but people need to stop assuming that just because someone does something stupid/suspicious that they must be mafia. In fact, often doing something stupid/blatantly suspicious is a town tell. I'm trying to be better than the average TL mafia player. My reads have actually been half decent the last few games I've played. From now on, if I think we're going to mislynch then I'm going to tell you that I think it's a mislynch. Especially if I'm in a game where we haven't nailed scum once yet. I'm also going to provide who I think is a good lynch instead (in this case, Katina), and reasons why (as I gave at the night post). Show me a game where someone has actually been dumb enough to claim vig night 1 and has then survived and gone on to win the game in a situation where the killing power of mafia was messed up on the night he claimed vig. I don't think people are that stupid. I mean, look at this game, people are already ready and willing to lynch him. Do you not think that he would have thought, if he was mafia, about the fact that people would probably want to lynch him?
And I can point to you plenty of games where scum do stupid stuff too. See TL Mafia LI where VE claims DT with a scum check on Toad who claims Veteran. Both were scum. See BH this game, claiming SK. My problem with your defense of BH is that you seem so sure of him being 'probably vigilante' that I feel you have to have information that we don't. This means to me that you're either scum or a roleblocker (with a slight chance of irrational townie). Since you just claimed you're not the roleblocker, that leaves scum.
I don't need to show you a game where vig claims Night 1 and wins. People like to claim, that doesn't mean that they're successful with them. And he didn't know the KP was going to be messed up before he claimed, so that didn't affect his claim at all. I don't think BH thought that much about his claim, just thought "hey let's claim vig since I have a KP role, yeah that sounds cool let's do it and see what happens!".
Also, I'd like to hear your case on Katina, rather than have you ask other people what their opinion is again. If it's a really good case I might reconsider my vote.
@Blazinghand if you're serious about helping town start putting together some cases.
@Palmar then stop being lazy and read the damn case.
@Shraft I used the posts that I found relevant to the case. The first post was relevant to me because it put him on the map as a questioning player mostly. He waits to find out where other people stand so he can make a safe choice. That post on its own is a null read, but it provides to the rest of the case.
@Ghost_403 You said you're happy to discuss the lynch, yet you haven't discussed anything about it yet. What do you think about the case?
@Zelblade, Katina, MrZentor, Navillus: Contribute. You're not saying anything (very useful). Also want to hear your opinions on Snarfs.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
OK so seriously though, N1:
Hyaach was RBed, he wouldn't lie, he was the JK, and VE, the town Miller, didn't claim getting RBed.
As SK OR SCUM I clearly must have been RBed. My called shot on Furerkip didn't go through.
So what's the deal with the N2 RBs? Why isn't there a second RB claim?
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Blazinghand, I've got it: Furerkip is the second RBer, and he was afk during the night.
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But wait, that wouldn't explain the lack of a second KP in the case of you being SK. Strange. Perhaps Scum's messing with our minds.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
What I'm getting at is the reason there isn't a second RB claim is that scum must have shot VE, stacking the RB on top of their NK. It explains the one NK from last night.
I'm gonna spend some time looking at Snarfs' previous games to see if there's a meta case to support my general suspicion of him.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On June 12 2012 04:00 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
But wait, that wouldn't explain the lack of a second KP in the case of you being SK. Strange. Perhaps Scum's messing with our minds.
In my mind, here's what scum is doing: they're putting their RB on the same dude their NKing to hide the RB.
They did it N1 with me.
They did it last night with VE.
That's the only reason I could think of for their not being a second RB tonight, other than that perhaps scum RBed you and you're the town RB, or town RBed you and you're the scum RB, or scum RBed you and the town RB RBed VE.
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Or the person that got RBed as well isn't telling us because he's scum.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On June 12 2012 04:04 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Or the person that got RBed as well isn't telling us because he's scum.
So in this case, scum RBed you, and whoever the town RB RBed is scum, and the town RB can claim in the last hour of N3 and reveal the scum. That would be good. He COULD ALSO CLAIM NOW AND SAVE ME, AND WE COULD LYNCH THIS GUY, BUT NOOOOOO
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Alternatively, both Town and Scum RBed me and both Mafia and SK hit VE. I PMed WBG if I'd get notified twice if I get RBed twice, he said no.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
So basically we don't know anything
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Yes, so let's go back to scumhunting based on behavior. Care to start making some cases to prove you want to actually help town?
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On June 12 2012 04:25 MrZentor wrote:
Artanis, BH is scum.
Technically, as scum includes both SK and Mafia in its definition, this is a true statement.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On June 12 2012 04:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Yes, so let's go back to scumhunting based on behavior. Care to start making some cases to prove you want to actually help town?
I said I'm reading snarf's stupid history, but he always plays in PM games. His most recent non PM game is DF Mafia and that was 7 whole pages filter. Give me a second, jeez. I've spent all game trying to only be marginally helpful and now I have to be actually helpful and it sucks.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
Man, and DF doesn't even have like a normal lynch mechanic. I'll take a look at Wiggles MMII instead
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On June 12 2012 04:25 MrZentor wrote:
Artanis, BH is scum.
On June 12 2012 03:54 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
@Zelblade, Katina, MrZentor, Navillus: Contribute. You're not saying anything (very useful). Also want to hear your opinions on Snarfs.
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On June 12 2012 03:54 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
His vote on Pandain was one of many. Did you feel it was neccesary to look back at all of them? It seems weird to me that it just so happens that Hyaach is the one to make you look back at it. As an experienced Mafia player, you should be well aware by now that people not scumhunting doesn't equal being scum, especially newbie townies. It's hard to provide analysis when your English isn't that good as his clearly wasn't. I find your reasons for calling him scum meek at best.
And yes, I'm aware I did vote for him at the end too. However, that's a lot later and based on different things.
Yes, I did feel it was neccessary to go back and look at all the votes on Pandain, and I did just that. I even said earlier that everyone should go back and look at the votes on Pandain.
I'm not saying the entire case boiled down to him not scumhunting. I'm saying that that contributed, along with the other points I've made (i.e. shady sheeping onto Pandain, posts which refer to not being around when things happen as an excuse not to provide opinions on things, generally avoiding commenting on other players), in him being my strongest scum read.
Wait, first you find Ghost suspicious, then you find him a null read? You can't cut the pie and eat it, too. By only posing questions and not giving your own opinions you make it very hard for other people to read your intentions, something that's good for mafia. Scum doesn't know who people think other people think are town and would love to know so they can kill that person. By not sharing your own opinion first you give yourself an opening to which you can adapt your opinion before you've ever given it. Townies usually aren't that cautious. Townies will give their own opinions, and people that sheep your opinion should be treated with extreme caution and can be a scumtell on its own.
1) If you're not a town read, you're suspicious. Null = not a town read = suspicious.
2) I understand that by not giving opinions all the time, scum can easily adapt to what other people say. I've been trying to provide a balance this game by both sharing my thoughts and trying to gather the thoughts of other players. I've been quite clear on my thoughts on Hyaach, blazinghand, furer/Palmar and Katina and if you need my opinion on any other player who you're finding suspicious yourself, just ask me. Otherwise, I will bring up players I'm finding suspicious and see what my town reads have to say about them.
And I can point to you plenty of games where scum do stupid stuff too. See TL Mafia LI where VE claims DT with a scum check on Toad who claims Veteran. Both were scum. See BH this game, claiming SK. My problem with your defense of BH is that you seem so sure of him being 'probably vigilante' that I feel you have to have information that we don't. This means to me that you're either scum or a roleblocker (with a slight chance of irrational townie). Since you just claimed you're not the roleblocker, that leaves scum.
I don't need to show you a game where vig claims Night 1 and wins. People like to claim, that doesn't mean that they're successful with them. And he didn't know the KP was going to be messed up before he claimed, so that didn't affect his claim at all. I don't think BH thought that much about his claim, just thought "hey let's claim vig since I have a KP role, yeah that sounds cool let's do it and see what happens!".
I honestly think it's dumb as hell for scum to do that for reasons I've stated multiple times. He would have been under such insane scrutiny that there's no way he could have survived until LYLO, and if he did, he probably would have been lynched at that point in time. He wasn't going to win after that claim - we were either going to lynch him or scum was going to shoot him.
Also, I'd like to hear your case on Katina, rather than have you ask other people what their opinion is again. If it's a really good case I might reconsider my vote.
I posted my thoughts on Katina at the end of the night: [click]
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On June 12 2012 04:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Yes, so let's go back to scumhunting based on behavior. Care to start making some cases to prove you want to actually help town? I said I'm reading snarf's stupid history, but he always plays in PM games. His most recent non PM game is DF Mafia and that was 7 whole pages filter. Give me a second, jeez. I've spent all game trying to only be marginally helpful and now I have to be actually helpful and it sucks.
I only played in one PM game and it sucked. I've been a mason twice though, if that's what you're actually referring to.
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EPT
