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Just a quick housekeeping post.
Mordanis: I think you have the right idea going back to the drawing board. Release has also encouraged this, and so do I. I read what you have posted so far, and what I see is you being suspicious of everyone basically (having refreshed just before posting this, I see Release has just said the same). I think this is caused by the front to back thread read. This is causing every player's worst moments to stick in your head and little else. My suggestion is to look at each person individually, via filters. A front to back thread read is useful, but should be secondary to this.
SciaoPi: Day 1 has been over for awhile. I've been going over and over your filter. Your final response to me was confusing, in that it stood in stark contrast to everything else you posted. It was crystal clear, well thought out, and humble. It also took some big brass balls to unFoS me when I was still actively pursuing you. This showed self-awareness and also a healthy measure of trust. I said I wanted to continue our interaction, but had a change of heart after mulling over this:
On May 24 2012 07:57 ShiaoPi wrote:
--snipped
I lacked and probably still lack according to some people content but it really is hard to get some content in, if I have to defend myself all the time.
I wanted to see what you could contribute with a little space to work with. I see you posted that you've been busy, but you're credibility will suffer the longer you go without utilizing this space. My read on Golden is currently stronger than my read on you, and as such...
##unFoS: ShiaoPi
##FoS: O.Golden_ne
Miltonkram: I spelled out my views on Mordanis and Release in my post concerning hegeo's final accusation. The framework you are basing your analysis on seems sound enough. With everything else I've been doing, I haven't gone through Mordanis' filter by itself in a little while. I plan to do this so I can add/comment to your analysis post.
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EBWOP: I cant believe I screwed up you're and your
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@ s0Lstice- spoilered because it's all fluff, forgive me for the terrible joke
+ Show Spoiler +Their their s0Lstice, don't be too hard on yourself, their their.........hehehe
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This is part two of my analysis. The subject today:
Mordanis
Analysis of his D1 play:
The back and forth between Release and Mordanis at the start of D1 has been well documented. It ended well, pushed through discussion of town policy pretty quickly, and got us scumhunting about as fast as could be hoped. The only thing people may have missed was this little gem.
---snip
First off, let me say that I'm glad for your early FOS. I was trying to think of a way to get the ball rolling and I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Let me try to clear up any confusion now though ^^
The reason I mentioned the last game I played is because it was the only game I've ever played before. To me it seems that referencing my only experience is quite logical. If it doesn't seem logical, I apologize! My reference was only a way for me to explain what I thought and why.
Note the weak tone he takes with Release. He first thanks Release for the FOS. I see possible townie and scummy motives for this move. Scummy because he thinks overtly welcoming suspicion will lessen the pressure on him, or townie because the FOS really did help move forward discussion. Either way it's a weird play. The really good part is his apology. Let's think, what does he have to apologize for? Why would he apologize for this?-->+ Show Spoiler +So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks
Next let's take a look at the times Mordanis's emotions come into play:
What were the circumstances of Mordanis's first emotional response to something? Sciberbia had posted this
+ Show Spoiler +My thoughts on Mordanis's accusation of hegeo:
Your primary accusation and most tangible peace of evidence is that hegeo's first post was 10 minutes after Milton called out the three people left to post. I don't find this very inciminating. If hegeo was mafia and worried about looking like a lurker, he'd just have posted a fluffy sorta "hi all" first post, similar to Milton, solstice etc. If he's mafia and not that worried about looking like a lurker, why would he panic so much? It just doesn't make much sense to me. If you were mafia, would you watch the thread, wait until someone calls you out as lurking, and then post 10 minutes later? Seems dumb. I see where you're coming from, and I agree it's a bit fishy, but I guess I'm just more willing to believe it's a coincadence than you are. And I liked the actual content of his first post.
Mordanis, your statement about working with Golden struck me strangely as well. I was expecting someone to comment on it. And it makes sense that he would criticize you because you had just accused him. Doesn't seem odd to me. His defense is a litte weird, but I don't find it particularly scummy.
I'm really not quite sure what to make of his post about Release. I could see him posting it as either town or mafia.
Also, you say that he isn't helping scumhunt, but he just assembled some evidence against shiaopi.
Personally, I would be willing to vote for hegeo if it was between that and no-lynch, but I think we have better options. I don't really have a read on hegeo. I'll think about it more tomorrow if he's still in contention for lynching.
I encourage everyone to weigh in as we have have quite a few accusations.
which amounted to questioning the reasoning behind Mordanis's pressure on hegeo, to which Mordanis responds
@Sciberia
IDK how many games you've played, but this is not a very high level game. It is not even remotely inconceivable that an inexperienced mafia could panic, and then make an excuse for why he acted that way. I also included a fair amount of analysis of his posts, which seemed scummy to me. Compare my post to Hegeo's accusation of ShiaoPi. I have one solid fact and a lot of solid analysis. Hegeo just points out that ShiaoPi has a lot of filler content. Usefull information, but not very deep analysis. Also, I was posting that as much to generate discussion as much as to gather support for a lynch. It's early on in the game, but if we don't start throwing some accusations around then we'll be mired in inactivity, while the mafia picks us off one by one. And I don't see anyone you are considering lynching in your post.
About Golden, I played with him in our last game. It's nice to see a familiar face. That's the only reason why. Basic human needs and such.
The last four lines are jumbled between what I said and what other people said. I didn't understand them. If you'd clarify I'd love to comment on them as well.
One final thing: I think the whole passive-aggressive thing needs to end. I understand that you don't want to be lynched (neither do I), but just being angry at one person for the sake of being angry doesn't help anything.
with a decent, but not great rebuttal of sciberbia's points. How did he perceive anger in sciberbia's post? What does calling the post "passive-aggressive" accomplish him? One thing it does is draw attention away from the actual content of sciberbia's post (calling Mordanis's case on hegeo based too much on coincidence) and brings it onto the emotional elements of the two players posting. The second case of Mordanis's emotion is in response to hegeo after hegeo (badly) tries to defend himself. Still hegeo's defense wasn't completely terrible. I think Mordanis once again saw information in a post that didn't fit in with his plan and thus distracted from it by simplifying the offending post and calling it passive-aggressive. This does two things, in the mind it amplifies the passive-aggressive parts of what hegeo had written and lessens the importance of any logical points hegeo may have made.
Final point on Mordanis's play:
This point may be circumstantial, and I believe Release may have already made it. Forgive me if that's the case, I'm incredibly tired and I want to get some sleep. Mordanis pointed out hegeo's play first, but Release was the first to actually vote for hegeo. Think about it from a scum's perspective, pointing out a non-contributing or suspicious player is great to gain townie cred, but being the first to vote for a townie seems like it will bring intense scrutiny. This may be approaching WIFOM, but at this point I'm so tired I just hope my points make sense. Thoughts on this town? Any explanations for your play Mordanis?
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##Vote: Release
Going to sleep/work probably wont be back til after the vote
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EBWOP: Obviously the knee-jerk after hegeo's big reveal seemed pretty scummy. The one thing that's causing me pause about my case after all this is Mordanis's last big post. You all know the one, the really, really long one with all the spoilers. Skimming it I didn't think it was very good. Actually reading through it, I think Mordanis makes some damn good points, and I'm not sure whether they fit in with the picture I have of him. Maybe the picture will fit together in the morning when I have my head on straight. Night all, I'm finally going to sleep.
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Hold the phone. Seriously skware? You actually think Release is mafia after everything we've been posting and you've just lurked all day JUST LIKE YOUR PREDECESSOR?!! I'm so pissed and confused right now my brain is literally going to melt.
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@s0lstice.
1. Scumhunting: You're saying that i havent been searching for scum? I've read as much of this thread as you have. Are you saying that i'm not scumhunting because i have focussed on a single player instead of flipping between several all the time. Accusing everyone? It's my opinion that there are different roles of town, and not every town needs to be flinging shit at everyone. Whether or not Release is a town, he's been doing this just fine. I initially got a town vibe from him but because of the Mordanis/Release link i'm still uncertain of his loyalty. I digress.
2. Accountability: yes i must admit i did plan on posting a more in depth post on the issue. And in hindsight its very stupid i didnt because now my case i easily tainted if i was on the right track. eg. if YOU s0lstice and milton were mafia this is a perfect deflection, "omg, where is your argument on milton.. you must be making filler"
if you were to pick me for accountability can i point you to this filter:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337671&user=154712
if anyone should be accountable it should be Mufaa's replacement. he has a total of 4 very small posts. perhaps there is a reason mufaa wasn't modkilled.
my argument on Milton still stands. i should be online for a little longer.
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i just refreshed and saw Miltons post on skware. which makes me want to re-read his filter.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
It has taken quite a while for me to finally get to posting this, but sorry I was busy.
In order to look at the Release/Mordanis issue I chose to start reading through the filters again, especially their defense against hegeo's last post. I assume that everyone still has hegeo's case in mind while reading this.
Reading through Release's filter, I believe everyone sees the aggressive stance he has since the beginning of the game. Nothing wrong with that initially. He is the first to actually cast a vote as a response to some soft pressure of hegeo. This seems a bit of like an OMGUS move especially considering that he pushes one of hegeo's arguments away as "blatant lies" (+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... On May 22 2012 14:36 Release wrote:
EBWOP: ##FOS: Sciberbia ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo
So for now Release seems to me like a case of zealous townie, who sadly went after the wrong target.
On Topic of Mordanis:
In his filter his posts against hegeo often included the accusation of "passive-aggressiveness". I still have no clue what he means with it and I certainly do not see it in hegeo's posting. Seems like a case of adding up arguments when he ran out of things with solid backing to point out. Concluding from that you could say he found somebody easy to attack to maybe get a mislynch happen. Adding weight to that train of thought is his post in which he calmly claims to ignore hegeo. This is stupid for the simple reason that town wants to get information via pressuring or lynching. If you ignore your tunneltarget, how can you gather information from it? For that the following quote is also useful:
+ Show Spoiler +And finally, I think that Release has pretty much posted a refutation of your rebuttal.
Once he has begun actively pushing the case against hegeo, he pretty much ignored his responses and found a way to even not need to answer hegeo at all.
The strongest point against him is the ridiculous "knee-jerk" we got from him right after hegeo's post: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:29 Mordanis wrote:"Also, no interaction between these two in the thread" + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 15:08 Mordanis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote:
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks You say that you are for a vote, but you state that your other vote was luck based. Considering you said "very luck based", doesn't that mean to say that we are not going to experience the same luck? If we don't experience the same luck, we will very much end up lynching a townie, which makes your "for a vote" seem like you want to lynch a townie. Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this game and find out ways for pointing out scum rather than ways not to. This seems more like filler. The useful part of your post can be summarized by: We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental. ##FOS: Mordanis First off, let me say that I'm glad for your early FOS. I was trying to think of a way to get the ball rolling and I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Let me try to clear up any confusion now though ^^ The reason I mentioned the last game I played is because it was the only game I've ever played before. To me it seems that referencing my only experience is quite logical. If it doesn't seem logical, I apologize! My reference was only a way for me to explain what I thought and why. The reason that I said that I'm for a lynch today is this: I think that in 99% of cases, a D1 no-lynch only ends badly for the town. There's no real information that is gained, All we really find out is that the player who dies during the night was town. If a vigi shoots during the same night, it really doesn't give us much info either (all we know is who died, and probably only a slightly over 1/4 chance of hitting mafia). However, if we do lynch, then we pressure the mafia to either defend their scumbuddy or let one of their own die. It puts pressure on the mafia, and we have a chance to get out to an early lead. Also, I look at it in a risk/reward way. If we lynch D1, our risks are (1: mislynch). That's basically it. That would put us in a 5vs2 against the mafia. Our reward however, would be (1: information, 2: potential scumlynch). We would have solid input from everyone, from which we could at least begin to unravel who the mafia is, who the town are, and who the lurkers are. On the other hand, if we start without a lynch, we have to stat virtually from the beginning, only we know concretely one person who is (read was) town. As to your concern, I do think that we got lucky in my last game. We lynched one of the lurkers who seemed only somewhat scummy, and he flipped scum. This time, hopefully, we will have begun the hunt for scum early enough that we will have a much better target than last time. My hope is that we will have a good candidate to lynch. If however, we get sidetracked and have no solid reads, I prefer a lynch of the strongest scumread who is also a lurker. That way, if we are wrong, we won't lose a critical part of the team. If only a couple of people are active today and we lynch one, that's sending a clear message that we'll lynch the people who are participating actively. I think its pretty obvious to see where that path leads. That being said, there is not nearly enough activity yet for me to decide whom I would support lynching. As to the questions Sciberia asked: I'd really support a lynch for anyone that could get a majority of the votes. In some weird situation where everyone decided to lynch the best, most logical player, I'd try to get a no-vote. In reality though, I trust my fellow townies to be rational enough to lynch someone who is fairly likely to be scum. + Show Spoiler [written after Release's second FOS] +Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention.
And please, everyone, get active. We need a healthy discussion if we are going to lynch scum today. If we have 4 lurkers though, I don't think we'll do very well. Note the spoiler.... Normally I wouldn't post much content between day cycles, but this seemed a little too not-factual.
This post makes no sense at all. Even if we believe him: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:37 Mordanis wrote:
No, I just opened a few spoilers, and that stuck out at me. It was so wrong I couldn't help but correct it. It is the equivalent of me saying that Hegeo never mentioned Mufaa. I couldn't help but post that in case people review that in the night and take his statements at face value without reviewing the thread. At least that one was a bald-faced lie. So remember that everyone, when you read it. He accuses the 2 people who were on him from the start, you can expect some bias.
It is nonsensical to build up his defense around this tiny tidbit, when there is a lot of other (and weightier) argumentation in that post. Seems like a total panic move on being called out.
Now taking his more "collected" response into focus:
He points out several weak points in hegeos case (e.g.the whole sciberbia/sciberia thing) and does an overall good job of defending. Nevertheless the "knee-jerk"-first-reaction is still incredibly scummy. He defends it by quoting emotion, which he before used as one of his arguments for the lynch on hegeo. Weak defense regarding that in general. To be honest if he had not had that reaction I would have probably discarded hegeo's case now as "bad townie play", in which I had put him anyway.
Going on to Mordanis' post on day 1. Basically he just posts a giant repetition of the sequence of the events. He nudges in a point here in there (an fos on Golden, with a weakly outlined suspicion, some suspicions on me, which I will answer later and some more counterpressure against Release), but overall it is a useless summary of know events, which make him seem contributing without doing much in reality.
Conclusively I would say that Mordanis has been the more suspicious part of the Release/Mordanis case and therefore should be pressured to talk more about his reasoning as he has already offered. So ##FOS: Mordanis.
@Mordanis:
You said that I was trying to stop a scumhunt. From your point of view this might have seemed reasonable if you ignored the fact that he flipped town. I stated my reasons for not joining the pressure on hegeo, I read him as weak/bad Townie (which he was), so I really do not understand your suspicion here. Grasping at straws to deflect attention?
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Okay i'm not sure how this is going to sit with everyone, but since i need to get a little more active than i have been AND its the weekend i'm going to say that i re-read over Mordanis's entire refutation of the Hegeo's final post.
I think that Mordanis and Release are victims of circumstance in this situation.
Mordanis's posts strike me as well thought out and very analytical, especially in his rebuttal of his link to Release.
Release; i've got a new-town vibe from him from the get go. Not afraid to get his hands dirty for the sake of the town. I'm however usually a little more reserved, i think town has places for both our kinds of players.
I also find it strange that 2 people have posted their cases on Mordanis so swiftly. Shiaopi and Miltonkram. I don't think that it's too far of a leap to presume that Mordanis is a very easy case today. It's worth a little thought.
Also, if there isn't a solid unified case today then Mufaa/Skware is a must-lynch. This is a useless player =/
thoughts? the deadline approaches.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
I posted my case on Mordanis (or more my read since I am only applying pressure, not calling for a lynch outright) as I finally had the time to do so. That it coincides with Milton is getting annoying to me. I said I lacked time and now that I have posted it, it again looks like I am mirroring him....As I do not have a timemaschine to get more freetime whenever I want to I cannot do anything about it right now.
Just putting it out for now: Milton is a really unsure read for me now. His posts on Release and Mordanis were good, his play has improved from day 1, but I still cling to my earlier pressure on him, regarding weak cases etc. etc. So his day 2 has given him some cred in my eyes but not enough to swipe away the suspicion.
Furthermore I actually believe that solstice has gotten quite some good points on you golden. In your response to him you acknowledge most of the problems he pointed out in your play, but there is no explaination going on and then you go in with a simple vote on Milton? I would like to get some more reasoning for that.
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@ Golden
Is that your defense? If I may, let me sum it up. You think your scumhunting style is simply different than everyone else. Apparently you don't see the point of pressuring multiple people. Everything else is wishy-washy filler in your first statement. In your second statement, you claim scum is taking pressure off themselves by focusing on you and calling your content filler.
Let me refute your statements. If you only ever pressure one person, how do you know who the other scum is? Tunneling one player does not give the town all the information it needs. You also conveniently ignore the main point brought against you by s0Lstice and Mordanis. You have only pressured people who already have pressure on them. You haven't brought new information to the table. Why? If you're calling that play style, I'd say you have a pretty scummy play style. In regards to your second point, if you are town of course mafia is deflecting pressure onto you. That's an easy assumption to make and it's no substitute for a strong defense. Overall, I'd say your defense is absurdly weak.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
EBWOP: skware if you are reading, get your ass into the thread and give us reasons for your vote...
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EBWOP: This is in response to this post, in case it's not clear.
+ Show Spoiler +@s0lstice. 1. Scumhunting: You're saying that i havent been searching for scum? I've read as much of this thread as you have. Are you saying that i'm not scumhunting because i have focussed on a single player instead of flipping between several all the time. Accusing everyone? It's my opinion that there are different roles of town, and not every town needs to be flinging shit at everyone. Whether or not Release is a town, he's been doing this just fine. I initially got a town vibe from him but because of the Mordanis/Release link i'm still uncertain of his loyalty. I digress. 2. Accountability: yes i must admit i did plan on posting a more in depth post on the issue. And in hindsight its very stupid i didnt because now my case i easily tainted if i was on the right track. eg. if YOU s0lstice and milton were mafia this is a perfect deflection, "omg, where is your argument on milton.. you must be making filler" if you were to pick me for accountability can i point you to this filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337671&user=154712if anyone should be accountable it should be Mufaa's replacement. he has a total of 4 very small posts. perhaps there is a reason mufaa wasn't modkilled. my argument on Milton still stands. i should be online for a little longer.
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We need to come to a consensus on skware quickly. We have less than 5 hours until deadline. skware is a pure policy lynch at this point, we simply don't have enough information to make a case for him or against him. Since he stated that he likely won't be back until after the deadline we need to plan for the worst case scenario, that he won't make it back in time.
We don't gain much info from him if he flips either way, under that line of reasoning he could very well be scum. Thoughts?
Golden's defense does not satisfy me, and that leads me to believe he's having difficulty figuring out a way to defend his actions. With that in mind
##Vote: O.Golden_ne
If we decide that skware is the policy lynch I will switch my vote to him. Mordanis, I want to hear a defense from you, otherwise I will consider switching my vote to you.
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I've read Mordanis' filter, and I came away from it thinking the same thing I did when I was analyzing hegeo's magnum opus. He starts out polite and unsure of himself. He apologized without the situation really warranting it. I grant that this is a little strange. I think there was OMGUS with hegeo, and there are certainly moments where he gets emotional.
Milton, your read on Mordanis draws a lot on these emotions. The take home message, as I see it, is that Mordanis used emotional play to distract us from points being made against him. Yes, this is possible, but I ask you, is it more likely than this scenario: Mordanis is a newbie just like the rest of us, and started the game sure that he wanted to do his part, but was unsure on how to go about it. He waffles around a bit, tries to be pro-town and makes nice. When some early flak comes from hegeo, he becomes incredulous, and overreacts to it. He feels genuinely slighted, because he knows he's green, and hegeo's suspicions are misguided. It's like hegeo came up to him and declared that 2+2=5.
I know I felt this way the first time I was accused, and it's difficult to stay objective.
Put simply, day 1 was a lot of OMGUS towards hegeo. That said, hegeo's defense left a lot to be desired, and really only encouraged the perpetuity of Mordanis' behavior.
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Now for Golden. Your defense is seriously paltry.
Your defense on scumhunting is that you scumhunt differently than everyone else. That's correct, the difference is that you only care enough about it to form one garbagey case against one player, absent of any outside information. You basically mailed it in, voted (citing only your own weak input), and then left. You don't care because you are scum, and know who the scum are. You don't care to stick around for the lynch results, because you knew it was a win for you either way we went (milton/hegeo).
Your defense on your accountability is: yes I haven't been accountable, but what if you and Milton are scum and WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM. Also, look at this new lurker we have! Isn't he terrible?
I am thoroughly, 100% convinced.
##Vote: O.Golden_ne
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S0Lstice, I see what you're saying, and the fact that I'm a little unsure on Mordanis is why I haven't voted him until I hear a defense. Golden's case looks more concrete, plain and simple. In defense of my point though, look at the situations Mordanis's emotions come up in. They just seem a bit too strategic to me.
Also, I really want to get the skware situation decided quickly. What are your thoughts on it? Let's get this out of the way now so we can focus on solid cases again.
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EPT
