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Here's why it doesn't even matter if D1 scumbuddying is WIFOM, though your point does make sense. Let's hypothetically say you and Mordanis are scum. Everyone has you and Mordanis linked in their minds because the two of you were the driving factors behind a townie lynch. We vote to lynch one of you and that player turns up scum. All lines of play for mafia after that should be traceable back to the D1 scumbuddy as long as we have decent analysis.
However, you're still ignoring the main thrust of my post. One of you is town and one of you is mafia. All I'm getting from you is that you're scared because I've made the right assumption.
Let's look at your response to my post:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 06:12 Miltonkram wrote:
I think we all need to take a step back and look at the events of D1 a little more logically and less reactively. Why would a scum team both tunnel the same player? The only thing we're sure of is that hegeo flipped town, that doesn't make his analysis correct, anymore than it makes it incorrect. That being said, since Release and Mordanis were the two to put the most pressure on hegeo, I'd like to analyze their play under all possible circumstances.
Mafia + Mafia
Why would a scum team link their names D1 of the game? I think we all agree that Mordanis and Release were the most vocal against hegeo, and that could mean they tunneled him because they saw him as a weak target that they wouldn't get much flak for going against. If they are both scum, this is the most likely explanation of their actions. However, I just don't see a good enough reason for scum to band together on D1. That's a short-sighted play that would come back to bite them in the ass later. Possibility: least likely.
Townie + Townie
If both players were indeed town, an explanation of their actions could be that they just weren't ever satisfied with hegeo's defense. Let's face it, hegeo did not do a good job of defending himself. If he had, I would be the one lynched and he'd still be alive. So far, besides their knee-jerk reactions to hegeo's post, I'd say that they both have had decent, but not great town play. The bad news is, they've both played really scummy ever since hegeo's big reveal. Possibility: still unlikely, but more likely than M + M.
Townie + Mafia
Here's how I think it happened. The townie player felt he had a good case against his percieved scum target, and was encouraged that others felt the same way. The scum player knew he wouldn't be the only one targeted when hegeo flipped town and thus pulled the trigger and kept pressure on him. Worst case scenario for the scum player is a 50/50 situation where both he and the townie player are under pressure. Possibility: most likely situation.
That is my read on last night's events. The good news is I think we have the scum player in the worst possible situation. A 50/50 lynch is still better than a 2/7 lynch. I'm going to go over both Mordanis' and Release's filters to see what kind of a case can be made against them. I've been thinking a lot about these events and I think my analysis is pretty good. Thoughts on this anyone? Just answering the last part first: 2/7? You really think that a lynch is completely random? Trying to draw the town away from doing a real case on someone like you( who already has a substantial case) so they can get that 50/50 lynch? Remember D1: we had a 50/50 lynch (in the town's eyes, it was 100/0 because both seemed scummy, but my point is that there were 2 candidates). Stop trying to trick others with the same illusions that Hegeo did; it's what got him lynched. This is so full of shit and scum. Mafia + Mafia: No. I have already posted on what the Mafia were actually doing when i was roasting hegeo: The Mafia were trying to split our attention between two cases (Hegeo vs Milton/ShiaoPi/Solstice). Then you post some WIFOM filler (not a big deal since you actually posted some analysis) Townie + Townie: Who's been playing scummy since hegeo's reveal? Mordanis knee-jerked, not me. I posted an analytical response to hegeo's post and why the new guy was playing rather poorly. Also, i was the only one to point out that Hegeo's post mysteriously did not have a #5. Townie + Mafia: Mordanis and i both had our own separate cases against Hegeo. There was a small overlap, but we had our own ideas, just against the same person. When that happens, it tends to look bad for that person. Note that i am not refuting either of TT or TM yet, just pointing out the misinformation you are posting. And so what if we pressured him? He seemed scummy. We're supposed to pressure scummy players. If we didn't, we would have your dream random lynch scenario where a townie is more likely lynched. You would love that wouldn't you? Your case was the alternative to Hegeo's case. We chose him and we seemed to have forgotten about you. I haven't. If i'm still alive after the day post, you better watch yourself. ##FOS: Milton
It seems you mistook my analysis for a post that was directly pressuring you, which it wasn't. There are a few possible explanations for that: 1. You're mafia and my line of thought is causing you to panic or, 2. you're town and you misunderstood the point of my post. Everything you've been posting seems like a delaying tactic to me. Just give me some time to look through you and Mordanis's filters and let me make my case. Unless you're mafia, then you can keep trying to delay my analysis post, but I'm going to ignore you until the town has my scumread.
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So having read hegeo's final post/accusations and the responses from the accused, here are my thoughts, arranged in order of hegeo's points. This took a looooot longer that I thought it would.
1) + Show Spoiler +As far as their early interplay is concerned, Mordanis appears to be the one affected by Release's gravity, and not vice versa. In the early game I see there exchanges as just generating discussion, nothing more. Release and Mordanis both mention this in his defense and I agree that it doesn't look scummy. The "us" that Hegeo mentions I think was meant by Mordanis to mean 'us citizens of liquidia,' as in all players. Why did you not address this in your defense Mordanis? Lastly, I feel the argument that Release and Mordanis, as scum, wanted to be super active to fool people who think that scum aren't active really is definitely WIFOM. I assign no value to it.
2) + Show Spoiler +Hegeo points out a very obvious contradiction in Releases statements. He is spot on here; it is a contradiction, and looks scummy. Can you address this Release? I didn't see it in your defense. The rest has little weight to it in my eyes.
3) + Show Spoiler +I just don't see anything here, except for Release being guilty of some OMGUS. He has been aggressive all game, so I kind of expected it. Release's mistake of 3 mafia, is just that: a mistake. Recognize it for what it is, it's not scummy. If anything, Mordanis may be guilty of a little buddying. Buddying is at worst scummy, and at best detrimental to town. Here I just see it as slightly bad town play. Concerning the two of them not orchestrating their attack on Hegeo, Release and Mordanis both correctly addressed this in their defenses. They both could see what the other was doing, no need to ask.
4) + Show Spoiler +The switch to sciberbia isn't much of a point. Both Release and Mordanis were of like mind on Hegeo, so if someone comments on the case, they will of course both comment on it as they must defend their reads. The name mispelling is weird, to be sure. That said, I know I have almost mispelled it myself. I for one believe the accused explanations here.
5/6) + Show Spoiler +this is a summation of sorts of his argument. He continues on the theme of buddying, but I dont feel he has built an overly strong case for it. Again, Mordanis kind of buddies Release? He accuses Release for being angry at his inactivity. I see this as Release continuing to be aggressive, as he has been all game. There's just not really anything compelling here.
I wont address 7, because it is instructions to people who believe his case, which I dont. What I honestly see is aggressive, opinionated, and overtly critical play with Release, and emotional, pack mentality play from Mordanis. Neither is painted as dead red scum to me by hegeo in his accusation post.
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I'm going to be reading the filters for a while, so no posts from me for a bit. Right now my top scumreads are:
-ShiaoPi: I think he excuses his scummy play by calling it play style. He came into the game with lurker/defensive play in mind, and only after he realized such play wouldn't cut it did he really get active.
-Release/Mordanis: I'm not sure which one of these is scum, but I'm convinced that one of them used the other to cover their scumminess.
Lastly, I've defended my play here:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 19:02@ Golden- You raise several good points, and I will do my best to explain my line of thinking. First you stated about me: Show nested quote +Just to state the facts. His first few points were very summary-esque. I'm wary of these sorts of posts early in game as it means a player can conceal their views and reveal them at a later date when real discussion is happening. It gives the impression that he is contributing whereas he is actually delaying input so to clutter later on. The intention of my posts was to generate pressure and discussion. This being my first game, I felt that things such as the list I made and the pressure on sciberbia would be viewed as more threatening than they were actually taken. I believe s0Lstice used the term "weaksauce" to describe them, and looking back, I'm going to have to agree with him. In short, I think you're making a big deal out of some town play of mine that was admittedly less than stellar. The next part of your post states: Show nested quote +he moves to pressure s0lstice. (after s0lstice posted, then removed his #FOS) in what i see as a defensive measure under the "rationale" that s0lstice should have continued with his pressure.
it is my opinion that he did this to cement his 'innocence' by 'promoting' a more thorough pressuring in future.
next.
after his accusation of s0lstice (FOR ALTERNATING HIS #FOS TO QUICKLY) do you know what he does? His next post in his filter is moving his defensive #FOS against s0lstice (quite hypocritically i might add) onto another player (ShiaoPi). This next part is actually kind of funny, it was a reading comprehension error on my part, a reading comprehension error of his reading comprehension error. I thought it was crazy how flimsy his FOS was, I feel a bit stupid now that I realize what he was saying. Essentially, I did the exact same thing to him that he did to me. As for the last part of your post towards me: Show nested quote +he avoids his next suspicion (ShiaoPi) and jumps on a bandwagon of voting against Mufaa. (which i'm fine with, except for the context its in)
I feel that Miltonkram's play is quite scummy. I want you to know that I am still gunning for ShiaoPi. I hope we don't have to lynch Mufaa, but he needs to know that my vote for him will stand until he starts posting or I think he'll get modkilled/replaced. Right now, I'm going to continue pressuring ShiaoPi. Even if we don't lynch him today, our late game will be much better if we can get him to post something other than his wishy-washy defensive play.
If you still have a problem with my defense that's fine. Quite honestly, I'm kind of expecting to get lynched tonight anyway. Maybe when/if I get lynched it will be for the best and people will actually take my accusations seriously, but I'm going to continue to play the best I can no matter what. I'll be back in a little while.
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Now to respond to sciberbia's comment on me. See below:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 08:29 sciberbia wrote:One of s0lstice's posts really caught my attention. I just want to point it out now in case I'm dead in 10 minutes. In the minutes leading up to the deadline yesterday, hegeo made his final post: a giant, well-formed accusation of Release and Mordanis. At the time, me, milton, mordanis, shiaopi, and solstice were online. Everybody but solstice seemed a bit taken aback at the situation. Hegeo's post made him look town, but none of us were really sure what to think. Here are our reactions: me: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:27 sciberbia wrote:
This is either just bizarre townie play or a really really desperate mafia move.
Miltonkram: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:33 Miltonkram wrote:
Good night hegeo, if you flip town at the very least we can take your last post and it's accusations seriously. Mordanis: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:33 Mordanis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 08:29 s0Lstice wrote:On May 24 2012 08:27 sciberbia wrote:
Dude worst timing ever. You realize the deadline is in 5 minutes? This is either just bizarre townie play or a really really desperate mafia move. Seeing as I can't even read your post in the next 4 minutes, there is no way we are lynching Release or Mordanis. He says right in the header that he's been working on this the entire time, and presumably wanted to get it in earlier. I wish he would have dropped a quick note to that effect, but it seems like he was pretty engrossed. But don't you have to copy the code from the thread for this type of thing? This is such a weird situation......... ShiaoPi: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:37 ShiaoPi wrote:
Anyway, really waiting for the flip now... On May 24 2012 08:46 ShiaoPi wrote:
townflip, even blue.....
Mordanis and Release you should better prepare a damn good defense now s0sltice: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:41 s0Lstice wrote:
lol. if you think he is going to flip anything but green now you are nuts. posturing by you. On May 24 2012 08:55 s0Lstice wrote:
I guess that explains his mostly soft pressure. He sounded like a politician up until that last post, not sticking his neck out. My #1 newb fear was confusing blue for red. I find it suspicious that s0sltice was so sure hegeo is town, and had a quick explanation for hegeo's behavior. Only the mafia actually knew for a fact the he was town. I looked through solstice's filter and didn't find anything else I had an issue with, so I'm not prepared to say he is definitely scum, but it really strikes me as something suspcious. Again, just wanted to put it out there in case I die.
He says a few times throughout his final accusation post that he sees the deadline approaching as he's writing. He says it again after he posts it. It was clear to him that the lynch was going to happen, but he kept going. He even posted a quick rebuttal against Mordanis just before the lynch happened. There is zero motivation for scum to behave like he did here, knowing that they are gonna flip red in a matter of minutes (even seconds...his final rebuttal was after the deadline had passed). I thought this was pretty obvious...
Also, farewell and gg to sciberbia.
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response to solstice #2:
You have to realize how early in the game i posted that first comment about "focus on this game." I wanted to get us talking. Besides that, he seemed to make a point independent of the reference, and tell a story with his reference to the other game.
I use my reference as a support for my statement; to clarify something that was otherwise considered insignificant or unclear. People had started to suggest that a mistake=Scum and i wanted to prove that wrong.
will continue reading because i haven't finished solstice's entire post yet.
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Okay this sucks. 2 team members down. I have been following but wok is super busy so I have to quickly duck in here during my lunch break on my phone. In going to write a large analysis this afternoon so about 5hours from thi post. Im not going to address sciberbias final post yet though I think it has credence.
The most heated debate at the moment is between 3 candidates.
Release, Morsanis and miltonkram.
Here's my read on the events at the moment.
Hegeos got smashed, and his final post carries the most weight of anything in this entire thread.
Since this time both Morsanis and release have been scrambling to defend themselves and appear least scummy. By the fact that they are both quite defensive I feel that miltonkram is right in saying one of them is most likely scum. However miltonkram by posting this opinion in relationship to his former situation makes me feel like he's using this as a great opportunity to avert attention from himself over to shiaopi.
It is my opinion so far that miltonkram is mafia, and one of either Morsanis or release is also.
I also think that his repetition about the 50/50 things makes him look very scummy as there is little content for so much taking. I'll quote it in my big post this arvo if it's still relevant.
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Don't want to submit something half-finished and rushed like I did D1. I'm exhausted after work and heading to sleep. See you all in the morning.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Sorry for the lack of activity before but as it is life happens.
We just lost sciberbia so we probably should take a closer look on his filter:
It mainly consists of pressure against Milton and some rebuttals with Mordanis and to a lesser extent release. Just before getting shot he also has a slight suspicion of solstice.
What does mafia stand to gain from eliminating him?
-Silencing a good and contributing townie, who was pretty much a high townread (at least in my opinion)
-Removing Pressure off his targets
-Making people suspicious of his targets
Looking at it only the first point is a given the rest is probably close to WIFOM, but something to keep in mind following the discussion.
Regarding our choice of lynch for day we now have as reasonable candidates Release/Mordanis/Milton and myself (I guess). I'll share my thoughts on the whole Release/Mordanis issue later, just wanted to say that we should not forget sciberbias contributions even though he got shot (maybe it should be even closer scrutinized because he was shot)
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Hey all, I've been going through the entire thread, and I'm in the process of posting a fairly comprehensive analysis. You should be able to expect its completion sometime in the next few hours.
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4 promised posts. I hope you all deliver. However, i can't help but feel that at least one of these has the purpose of clogging up the others. I won't judge yet, but i will be reading the posts very carefully.
Also, Milton is confusing me right now with his play + Show Spoiler +not calling him mafia at this point but literally just confusing
Also, Milton has made a sudden reappearance into the suspicion list. This feels like bandwagoning even though i have asked numerous times for people to think for themselves. The more i read into this, i more i feel like Milton is being put into the same situation that Hegeo was put in.
For milton: Present me with a solid case about why you think Mordanis or I (or someone else if their filter shows something) is a scum. I don't want to see any more of the light pressure that got you suspicious in the first place. I don't want to see any of the half-hearted shit Hegeo pulled on us. If you want me to firmly believe that you are town material, you will do as a i ask. I'm giving you what Hegeo wanted but didn't receive: The benefit of the doubt. Don't betray this sentiment.
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Since people in this town apparently thought that Hegeo's argument was solid, I am going to go through the entire thread and then analyze everyone's filters. Unlike him, my main accuser is dead, so I will not be biased. One last thing: throughout my readthrough I've noticed that people have been quite lazy in their play. I really think that eveyone needs to read through again, to gain some perspective on what's happening right now. I was surprised.
+ Show Spoiler [Full thread 1st read] +As has already been talked about for ages, the thread begins with Release going batshit crazy. He puts FOSs on the only people who say anything of substance (Solstice begins with the typical "Liquidia! down w/ mafia", which Release ignores). It is during this time that Mufaa makes his first and only post. + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 09:25 Mufaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:10 Release wrote:
Also, i'd like to hear everyone's opinion on lurkers. I was Mafia in XIII and the amount of lurkers in a 12 person game ruined it. We won after a misread by the vig n3 because 2 of the mafia lurked all 3 days and so did 2 townies and he guessed wrong. If we want to find the scum we need as much content out of everyone as possible. More content means more room for mafia mistakes while townies can't make a mistake if they're being honest. I think everyone will find this quite ironic. Up until this point, the only people who had any real activity were Release, Sciberia, Me, and somewhat Mufaa. This group did something startling for a newbie mini: they got the game rolling virtually instantly. Therefore, I will contend that these players are less scummy due to the activity in this part of the game. In the next section, we get some activity from Milton and Hegeo to kick things off. I respond to the topics from the last section, and then Golden and ShiaoPi come in. Milton, Golden and ShiaoPi take pretty safe stances: + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 16:02 Miltonkram wrote:
Hey all, just got in from work. I'll wait on pressuring people to see who is a lurker or inactive, but I'm hoping that won't be a big issue.
People who still haven't posted since the Day 1 post:
-Golden
-hegeo
-ShiaoPi
I'd really like these three players to check in at the very least, if not start to put some information out there. On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote:
Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
First post: ezpz way to come off as pro town without any effort or risk. He just lists the players who haven't done anything yet. Could be scummy, could be lazy, could be paranoid. Second post: Same type of play as the first post. He repeats what others have said, but nothing that would be immediately risky. My evaluation of these posts is that he starts off as either incompetent/lazy town or mafia. Definitely worth more looking into. On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Good evening all, Well i've been following everything today via iPhone at work, but i'll be most active in the evenings. Such as now! Okay to start things off, Release has taken a very aggressive stance. This seems standard, someone always needs to shake things up. That being said, it was fairly amusing watching him post #FOS at anyone posting. I had a LOL at my desk. While it is good to shake things up, which he is doing. I do feel like he sort of shut down several good points that both Mordanis and Sciberbia have made, and is picking on some very minor problems with their posts that would be expected so early in the game. Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
I think take a bit to absorb what everyone is saying. Please remember that there are 7 of us Town and while discouraging fluff is essential in dissecting the mafia from the pack you need to keep in mind that the majority of us are town and we WANT to promote discussion. Pointing the finger at everyone that talks, for semantics OR their opinions is perhaps not the best way to encourage people to engage in a profitable discussion. To add my 2 cents on the DayOneLynch (D1L) I agree with hegeo, Release and Mordanis. It is my opinion that on day one we need to lynch someone, it provides a lot of information and in the optimum situation we can get lucky and hit a mafia. I'd rather mislynch one of our own, then wait a day and one of us get sniped. Ending up in a similar circumstance to the start of D1 just minus a player. Ugh. Also, i consider lurkers to be quite scummy. So unless a lurker posts some seriously good content every day, they will be under some scrutiny from myself. @Miltonkram, what is your on opinion on hegeo's statement: Show nested quote +Furthermore, I think it might be a good idea to not share your town reads early on, since this will make "weaker" town reads an easy target for scum and will give scum safety when they see themselves being seen as strong town reads. By doing so, they will need to justify their posts/opinions and it will be easier to keep the pressure high and find inconsistencies. On May 22 2012 20:45 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@Miltonkram. good point. this early in the game it IS unlikely anyone will have a solid town or mafia read.
I think it's crucial everyone establishes a list of who they suspect to be town and mafia.
However, it might be wise to only publicly question, accuse and point suspicions once you've got several points of reasoning. As i don't want people to have to be defending themselves against 'scummy' accusations due to poor semantics and one-off poor wording. I think people's overall playstyle is a much greater indicator of their allegiance then a one-off slip (or mistake).
Obviously other's may have a much more reactive play style where they will prefer to isolate single remarks. Though i want to take a look at a larger picture before casting my votes. Note that if other peoples reads on single-posts match with my overall read of a player i'll pay it attention. (and if someone makes some high level analysis of a post)
TL;DR
1. Unlikely to have solid town/mafia reads this early.
2. Keep a personal list of reads.
3. Only post accusations when you've got some good reasoning rather than pointing the finger willy-nilly.
4. IMO. A players overall style should have a more considerable weighting than a one off post. I will vote accordingly unless there is a good analysis of why a players post may be a scum-slip.
My intention for this post is to try add a little structure, so that when deadlines start looming we're not left flailing in the deep.
Also, just reading Hegeo's recent posts. I didn't even notice Mordanis's comment about me. He was in my first (and last) game and i enjoyed his play style as he was fairly active. I however was not, and had to pull out of that game due to personal reasons. I plan on being quite active and want to keep my posting fairly succinct, my posts in the previous game became large walls of texts and i want to avoid this. So i have and will be including TL:DR's wherever applicable.
Let me exactly communicate what Golden's first post was in 3 short sentences. Release should stop posting FOSs on every post with content. We should lynch D1. Lurkers are suspicious. Why would you post such a massive post to communicate this little information? It would have been confusing and weird to have posted it in as few words as I did, but maybe a short paragraph each would have sufficed. And he broaches no new ground. His second post features a handy dandy summarization. Of his four topics, one was already mentioned by Milton, the second was a derivative of the first, the third was basically "Release needs to cool down", which had already been mentioned several times, and the fourth was actually a decent argument. The fourth point is, however, of questionable value to town. If individual posts are not important, what is? Subjective feelings? To me this seems fairly suspicious. Golden did almost exactly what Milton did, he just wrote more words. And the whole town didn't see it. Hell, the mafia didn't even see it. I think that Golden deserves a fair amount of suspicion based on these posts. On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote:
Just came back from university.
First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense.
Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game.
I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied.
The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it. On May 22 2012 23:22 ShiaoPi wrote:
Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia:
I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now.
On May 23 2012 00:21 ShiaoPi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:
---snipped---
ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
If you reread my first post on sciberbia I would have assumed that it was easily visible that I had a bit of concern regarding him but not really a suspicion. Regarding my small filter, yes I did not post much until now, but how come that you with the exact same amount of posts (since the daypost) can claim that my filter is small. This strikes me as odd. Why complain about my filter if yours is not that much as well? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. More of the same. As already pointed out, he just follows the same "safe" opening as Milton and Golden. Not much else to say. It seems suspicious that one player would try to do this shit, but 3 players did it at the exact same time. I'm sorry, but this is just embarrasing for us as a town. Release did a good job to get the thread moving, and 4 hours later these 3 have mired the conversation in repetitions of repetitions of repetitions. Come on guys. (Note: after this point I took a sleeping break) At this point Solstice makes his return. he posts this + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:
We lynch day 1, period. Debating about whether or not to lynch only happens if we have no reads to go off of, which to me makes the debate a non-factor.. We've heard from everyone now I believe, solid reads will come with a little time.
Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now.
I'm looking first to sciberbia. I'm not sure if Release reads you as green, but I currently do. More fluff and I'll change my mind though. Your stated purpose was to generate discussion...mission accomplished. I'll be looking for you to make something out of it.
ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton.
##FOS: Miltonkram , which is sort of contradictory when his only post before this was + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 08:41 s0Lstice wrote:
WE MUST PROTECT THIS HOUSE
Be on notice mafia members, I will defend our town's honor to the last. Anyway, just wanted to say hi before bed. I'll be back in the wee hours of the morning, checking this thread when I should be working. . Anyways, back to the semi-present, what did he mean by sciberia generating discussion? Release basically started the discussion by stopping the "policy" debates and getting down to scum-hunting. And all Sciberia did was ask what our policy was going to be. And the whole thing doesn't really make sense to me; Solstice says that Sciberia did a good job, but still said that Sciberia was suspicious. Then he moves on to ShiaoPi, whom he criticizes for not being very active. Before this point he himself only had one post with 0 content! He mentions that scum make "quasi-useful posts" to look pro-town, but his own post is contradictory and somewhat illogical. After that he places a FOS on Milton because Milton said that sharing town reads were a bad idea. Sharing town reads benefits only mafia, so why would he pressure Milton and the rest of Liquidia to post town reads. This post strikes me as very suspicious. People agree with each other, and at this point there is no real pressure on anyone. Release has calmed down, and the hunt has regressed into a sort of lackadaisical mockery of effort. Everyone plays the game of "(I need to 'hunt scum' so people won't be suspicious of me) Uhh, I think people need to be more active and I'm especially concerned about X. Would X please defend himself" At which point everyone agrees that X isn't very suspicious. Finally someone puts out a weak case + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 01:01 sciberbia wrote:However, MILTON is currently one of my top two scumreads based on his posts:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:02 Miltonkram wrote:
Hey all, just got in from work. I'll wait on pressuring people to see who is a lurker or inactive, but I'm hoping that won't be a big issue.
People who still haven't posted since the Day 1 post:
-Golden
-hegeo
-ShiaoPi
I'd really like these three players to check in at the very least, if not start to put some information out there. Here is his first post. In his first post, all he basically does is pressure other people to post and also say nothing. He also expresses disdain for lurkers/inactives, which is about the least controversial thing he could do. Seems a bit scummy. Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote:
Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
In his second post, he first tries to compliment the most active player at the time. He also tries to support the accusation against me, basically just repeating what Release said. Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 19:55 Miltonkram wrote:
This'll be my last post for a little while seeing as getting sleep is kind of important.
ShiaoPi- While sciberbia's posting content was a bit suspect, I wouldn't read too much into his absence. He did state in his post that he was about to get some sleep. Let's hear what he has to say.
Golden- This early in the game I think any town reads are going to be weak, so I don't see much value in posting them. We have to remember that mafia have 90% of the information here. Posting town reads can just cut into the 10% that they don't know. If there is a time when it's important that we post such information (e.g. we think we're about to die, we think the town is about to mislynch) then by all means post it, but right now is not one of those crucial times. In this post, he continues to try to build suspicion against me, but he just says my post was "a bit suspect". Aside from the fact that before he said he seemed "quite scummy to him", he tries to not take too harsh a stance. Also, his statement to golden is bascially just a rehash of what hegeo said earlier and isn't too controversial. IN SUMMARY:I think milton is scummy: - he hasn't posted a ton but enough not to be lurky - he tried to pile supsicion on me but was wishy/washy about it - he isn't sticking his neck out on anything I say this is a weak case because it describes what most of the players had been doing. To this point, ShiaoPi, Golden (but with more words), Milton, Mufaa (although more on the lurky side), me (Although I was the first to post things, and then everyone else repeated them ad infinitum nauseamque), even Sciberia, had all fit every one of the criteria upon which Sciberia call Milton scummy. Except, Milton was the only one who cast even slight suspicion on Sciberia (I know Release did as well, but I think we can all agree that his first two FOSs were just a method of starting the scum hunt). I know Sciberia flipped town, but I have to take his last-minute accusation with a grain of salt because I just don't get why he chose Milton. Mercifully, there is little content left on the fifth page, so its on to the sixth. The 6th page starts out with Hegeo noticing that ShiaoPi is posting repetitions, missing (IMO) Milton and Golden (at this point Mufaa has disappeared, so he is more of a lurker than a repeater). One thing that he misses, however, is the fact that ShiaoPi has actively tried to stop the scumhunt. With only a weak amount of suspicion on Milton making up the entire fruits of the hunt to this point, ShiaoPi posts this + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 03:00 ShiaoPi wrote:
@Sciberbia: The main thing about your suspicions on Milton is that nothing of the tidbits you gathered really struck me as: "well that's scummy"
Since it is Day1 pretty much everyone's postcount is relatively low (although Mufaa really stands out here), your second argument on piling suspicion on you, while being wishy washy about it seems like a typical day 1 accusation/FOS to me. There simply is not enough material for solid cases against others. I believe solid ones will only appear well into the 2nd half of day 1 when there is more information. Not sticking someone's neck out is in my opinion understandable. Although it may be a scum trait it could also be a blue role. In terms of getting people's attention, nobody besides you, has really done something to get everyone on it. So in regards to that everyone would be suspicious.
All in all I think that your case is just not "solid" enough without further information. Let's just wait for Milton's response, as that is something that will give us more info. . The only purpose of this post that I can find is that Shiao is trying to stall the hunt (which the rest of the town was doing a good enough job of already). I find this suspicious. The next post with content is mine. This is where I first accuse Hegeo. I feel it would be unfair to everyone to post my own thoughts at the time, so I will analyze it as objectively as possible. If you want my personal thoughts, just ask me and I'll be more than happy to share. I write + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 04:05 Mordanis wrote:First off, let me clarify my earlier statement to Release. He was being too frightening, and discouraging posting, so I told him to be slightly more trusting. Since his two FOSs, we've regressed to a community of trust. The way people have been talking, there just seems to be no urgency. I feel slightly responsible for this, so I'll do my best to mend the situation. Hegeo has been very suspicious. To restate what I've already said, he did not post in the first 5 hours (in and of itself harmless), but then posted 5 minutes after someone called him out for not posting. He offered an excuse, but the most obvious explanation is that he was watching the thread, and had a knee-jerk reaction to being called out. To believe he began writing before he was called out, and posted after a few minutes is, frankly, well, let's just say its not a very high order of probability. The next question is why he would watch the thread without posting. I can think of no reason a Townie would do this. Then he posts this + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 19:54 hegeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote:
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks Do you know more than the rest of us? Why couldn't Golden be mafia (and you)? Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:
I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there.
I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:
One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences. Admittedly, it is. But if I really wanted to defend myself at that time (against what I might add?), I would have mentioned the post. Truth is I read Miltonkram's post after I posted mine, from now on I will always refresh the thread before I post then. . This is right after I first state my misgivings about his timing. Do you see the passive aggressiveness? He defends himself in a strange way. He says virtually nothing save a small excuse for the the timing of his post. First statement is the most absurdly WIFOM I've ever seen. It was hilariously passive aggressive. Second statement was just agreement with someone else (which he stated), and the third was basically just an excuse. I have a hard time reconciling his behavior with being town. Then he posts this gem: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. If anyone wants my comprehensive analysis of this, I'll post if if I must. To me though, what I want to say is fairly simple. He praises Sciberia for "bringing the heat", and then spends the rest of the post explaining why Release's play has been suboptimal. In his next post, he even outright chastens Release: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 01:35 hegeo wrote:EBWOP: I forgot to say that I added the a),b) etc in italics and Mordanis already said that this kind of aggressiveness is not helping + Show Spoiler +(I was merely rephrasing this and putting it into my context). I have no idea what he is trying to accomplish. He has only posted shallow analysis in which he deflects attention from himself. He hasn't really helped at all in the scum-hunt. He has very suspicious activities. I'm very willing to change my mind, as we aren't even halfway through the first day. That being said, we need to have more and better analysis if we're going to find scum. I think it is wrong to assume that everyone is innocent just as it is wrong to assume everyone is innocent. We need to cultivate a healthy distrust of everyone, but at the same time we need to be able to work together to hunt scum. We need balance. We began too distrustful, we are now too trusting. We must find a middle ground to be successful. . The timing thing may have been overstated, but it is still supicious. And I prefer a case based on facts, which is exactly what the timing thing is. You can't dispute that he posted some filler content about 10 minutes after Milton mentioned that he hadn't posted. In my emotion, I overestimated the emotion in his post, leading to a certain level of suspicion. That being said though, I wasn't really committing to my accusation (evidenced by the fact that I didn't vote for him). There was still plenty of room for Hegeo to come out of the day unlynched, by contributing to the scumhunt. This early on, and with the last paragraph saying that my motive was to keep the town moving forward, I can't help but feel that there should be little scumminess to be found in this post. The next post is Release's first accusation of Hegeo. He writes + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... On May 22 2012 14:36 Release wrote:
EBWOP: ##FOS: Sciberbia ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo . My main problem with this post is when Release talks about blatant lies and that paragraph in general. This is the very essence of WIFOM. Unless I missed something, Hegeo never really accused Release of scumminess, just of bad town play. Release responds by saying that Hegeo is scum and afraid of the agressiveness? I don't understand where that came from. It is as if Release is afraid of any suspicion cast against him. Why would he respond with this paragraph? Because of that small paragraph, I'd rate this post as just slightly suspicious. After this we all bicker a bit about the various active cases (Milton, Shiao, Hegeo). The next post that really caught my attention is this one + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:14 O.Golden_ne wrote:@Sciberbia: RE: Miltonkram. I was getting exactly the same read. I have found all his posts to date fairly inline with what i have experienced as mafia in the past. I have wanted to hear more from him since his first post, that's why i directed my question to him. His answer has a good point about us not having much information currently to make any solid stances, however he DOES side with all the safest views and DOESNT put anything ground breaking or new into the public arena before sidelining and going to bed. Definitely need to hear more from him before the day is out if he plans on having a leg to stand on, as i can see at the very least a case forming on him for being fluffy lurker. @Mordanis: RE: Hegeo. You raise some good points, but like i said earlier i can't base a vote on just a single incriminating post. Sometime people only have a short amount of time to zip into the thread and post. and in my experience ALL rushed posts come off with a scum vibe. So i for one am going to let the "coincidence" debate slide on this one, and try read a little further into other statements today before casting my vote. Show nested quote +One final thing: I think the whole passive-aggressive thing needs to end. I understand that you don't want to be lynched (neither do I), but just being angry at one person for the sake of being angry doesn't help anything. This is very important to establish early on also, for everyone. If you're town, you've got nothing to worry about other than posting as much info as you can before you die. We all don't want to be lynched because playing is fun, however its more important to play WELL than to play for a LONG TIME. Play for the team, not for yourself as thats how scum play. @Hegeo. I'd love to see your response to Releases accusation. As his is the most tangible accusation to date. Because he's acctually got a vote behind it! Please rebut. I'll be posting more in my lunch break in 5 hours. c u soon . This is exactly like what I said earlier about Golden. He posts a lot of words, but behind what he says is just an agreement with what two players have said earlier. Zzzzzzzzzz. I'm doing this chronologically, so right now I'm going to officially (hope you read this and count this Marv ^^) ##FOS: Golden My reason for this is that to me this is the most logical way to play scum: ignore attention. Has anyone really thought of putting any suspicion? My fear is that we've been self-destructing while the mafia watch and laugh. (note) This is the last post on pg. 6 worth analyzing.
Alright, so this is taking a lot longer than I thought it would. I'm going to have to go to work in a little bit, but hopefully this (small) segment of the whole will be enough to spark some activity for the rest of the night, until I get back.
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And to clear up my statement about work, I'll be around for about an hour, but I need to start getting ready now. I really need a break as well. So I may check in again once or twice, and I'll hopefully finish my D1 analysis before sleeping tonight.
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About the section on me: I said blatant lies and backed it up with his intentional misquote of my phrase.
Next sentence is absolutely WIFOM. Completely useless i can't disagree with you there. But i do this to give people a sense of how i'm feeling. A bit emotional, if you will.
I attacked him after this because his reasoning was poor (and false in c).
+ Show Spoiler +dont' look into the timing and say "oh, you replied 10 minutes after he wrote." I stated prethread that this is when i get home.
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What do you think of the rest?
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My case on Golden
He's got two big problems in my eyes: scumhunting and accountability.
He's got 10 posts, so let's see what he has been doing to find scum. Instead of including all of his quotes, I thought it would be better for you the reader to open his filter and follow along with me.
Scumhunting
+ Show Spoiler +Posts 1 and 2: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Good evening all, Well i've been following everything today via iPhone at work, but i'll be most active in the evenings. Such as now! Okay to start things off, Release has taken a very aggressive stance. This seems standard, someone always needs to shake things up. That being said, it was fairly amusing watching him post #FOS at anyone posting. I had a LOL at my desk. While it is good to shake things up, which he is doing. I do feel like he sort of shut down several good points that both Mordanis and Sciberbia have made, and is picking on some very minor problems with their posts that would be expected so early in the game. Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
I think take a bit to absorb what everyone is saying. Please remember that there are 7 of us Town and while discouraging fluff is essential in dissecting the mafia from the pack you need to keep in mind that the majority of us are town and we WANT to promote discussion. Pointing the finger at everyone that talks, for semantics OR their opinions is perhaps not the best way to encourage people to engage in a profitable discussion. To add my 2 cents on the DayOneLynch (D1L) I agree with hegeo, Release and Mordanis. It is my opinion that on day one we need to lynch someone, it provides a lot of information and in the optimum situation we can get lucky and hit a mafia. I'd rather mislynch one of our own, then wait a day and one of us get sniped. Ending up in a similar circumstance to the start of D1 just minus a player. Ugh. Also, i consider lurkers to be quite scummy. So unless a lurker posts some seriously good content every day, they will be under some scrutiny from myself. @Miltonkram, what is your on opinion on hegeo's statement: Show nested quote +Furthermore, I think it might be a good idea to not share your town reads early on, since this will make "weaker" town reads an easy target for scum and will give scum safety when they see themselves being seen as strong town reads. By doing so, they will need to justify their posts/opinions and it will be easier to keep the pressure high and find inconsistencies. On May 22 2012 20:45 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@Miltonkram. good point. this early in the game it IS unlikely anyone will have a solid town or mafia read.
I think it's crucial everyone establishes a list of who they suspect to be town and mafia.
However, it might be wise to only publicly question, accuse and point suspicions once you've got several points of reasoning. As i don't want people to have to be defending themselves against 'scummy' accusations due to poor semantics and one-off poor wording. I think people's overall playstyle is a much greater indicator of their allegiance then a one-off slip (or mistake).
Obviously other's may have a much more reactive play style where they will prefer to isolate single remarks. Though i want to take a look at a larger picture before casting my votes. Note that if other peoples reads on single-posts match with my overall read of a player i'll pay it attention. (and if someone makes some high level analysis of a post)
TL;DR
1. Unlikely to have solid town/mafia reads this early.
2. Keep a personal list of reads.
3. Only post accusations when you've got some good reasoning rather than pointing the finger willy-nilly.
4. IMO. A players overall style should have a more considerable weighting than a one off post. I will vote accordingly unless there is a good analysis of why a players post may be a scum-slip.
My intention for this post is to try add a little structure, so that when deadlines start looming we're not left flailing in the deep.
Also, just reading Hegeo's recent posts. I didn't even notice Mordanis's comment about me. He was in my first (and last) game and i enjoyed his play style as he was fairly active. I however was not, and had to pull out of that game due to personal reasons. I plan on being quite active and want to keep my posting fairly succinct, my posts in the previous game became large walls of texts and i want to avoid this. So i have and will be including TL:DR's wherever applicable.
These are mostly fluff and policy discussion. In post 1, he criticizes Release on his play style, talks lynch policy, and says lurkers are bad. Pretty lightweight stuff. He also directs a softball of a question to Milton, which in his third post he attributes to wanting to get Milton to talk. It's fluffy, but his stated goal makes sense. Post 2 is really more policy discussion and "advice." His general tone is wait until you can craft a solid case on someone before pressuring them. His advice is not helpful at all. Of course everyone is going to be making reads for themselves. Early posts will naturally be content light, still it's something to keep in mind as you continue reading. The comfort level is very high early on, so it's easy for scum to post without fear. Post 3: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:14 O.Golden_ne wrote:@Sciberbia: RE: Miltonkram. I was getting exactly the same read. I have found all his posts to date fairly inline with what i have experienced as mafia in the past. I have wanted to hear more from him since his first post, that's why i directed my question to him. His answer has a good point about us not having much information currently to make any solid stances, however he DOES side with all the safest views and DOESNT put anything ground breaking or new into the public arena before sidelining and going to bed. Definitely need to hear more from him before the day is out if he plans on having a leg to stand on, as i can see at the very least a case forming on him for being fluffy lurker. @Mordanis: RE: Hegeo. You raise some good points, but like i said earlier i can't base a vote on just a single incriminating post. Sometime people only have a short amount of time to zip into the thread and post. and in my experience ALL rushed posts come off with a scum vibe. So i for one am going to let the "coincidence" debate slide on this one, and try read a little further into other statements today before casting my vote. Show nested quote +One final thing: I think the whole passive-aggressive thing needs to end. I understand that you don't want to be lynched (neither do I), but just being angry at one person for the sake of being angry doesn't help anything. This is very important to establish early on also, for everyone. If you're town, you've got nothing to worry about other than posting as much info as you can before you die. We all don't want to be lynched because playing is fun, however its more important to play WELL than to play for a LONG TIME. Play for the team, not for yourself as thats how scum play. @Hegeo. I'd love to see your response to Releases accusation. As his is the most tangible accusation to date. Because he's acctually got a vote behind it! Please rebut. I'll be posting more in my lunch break in 5 hours. c u soon He comments on two active cases. In the Milton case, he says it looks scummy to side with the prevalent moods in the thread, and to not add any new content while doing so. Note that he does exactly this in post 3. He catches a ride on these two building cases, and doesn't add much of consequence to them. Commenting on Hegeo, his ideas can be summed up as 'let's wait.' This reads as very cautious/non-commital. Post 4: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:05 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@Release. Sorry, i am here don't stress, it 6:00pm and i finished at 5:00pm l logged on the moment i got home!! It's hard to make time except for after work. I am catching up on all the happenings and will post a more in depth post in a moment.
this is an explanation of why he missed the deadline he set for himself. I'll return to this in the accountability section. Post 5: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 18:14 O.Golden_ne wrote:
I want to post a few of my reads so far in the public arena, hopefully my separation from todays events will give me a different perspective and perhaps help in focusing from the 4 or so cases down to a smaller number.
1. Mufaa.
Obviously useless. I'm more than happy to give him the boot, however before we do i'd like to look into some other avenues of lynching because if he keeps up his current style and fails to post a vote before the day is out he will be modkilled. Why waste a lynch on someone who is most likely to get killed by moderators! haha. That being said if he posts intermittently just to hang into the game. then we instantly should usher him from the game as it's fairly obvious he's just hanging around to get his Mafia night kills in.
2. Miltonkram (open his filter in another window for this, it should be easy to follow and not too long.)
Just to state the facts. His first few points were very summary-esque. I'm wary of these sorts of posts early in game as it means a player can conceal their views and reveal them at a later date when real discussion is happening. It gives the impression that he is contributing whereas he is actually delaying input so to clutter later on.
next.
he moves to pressure s0lstice. (after s0lstice posted, then removed his #FOS) in what i see as a defensive measure under the "rationale" that s0lstice should have continued with his pressure.
it is my opinion that he did this to cement his 'innocence' by 'promoting' a more thorough pressuring in future.
next.
after his accusation of s0lstice (FOR ALTERNATING HIS #FOS TO QUICKLY) do you know what he does? His next post in his filter is moving his defensive #FOS against s0lstice (quite hypocritically i might add) onto another player (ShiaoPi).
next.
he avoids his next suspicion (ShiaoPi) and jumps on a bandwagon of voting against Mufaa. (which i'm fine with, except for the context its in)
I feel that Miltonkram's play is quite scummy.
3. Hegeo
I pretty much agree with Mordanis on this player, but i will reserve voting.
4. ShiaoPi
This player has been very defensive the whole game. It's hard to get a read from someone when they are being defensive. He does a good job of trying to avert suspicion from him. The problem with defensive play is that you start to get suspicious of the person accusing you.
Thoughts & Comments
Obviously i need to read a little more into the other players but these are some i have focussed on so far. Miltonkram sticks out to me the most out of the non-lurkers however.
I urge everyone, both people being defensive and offensive. To have a re-read over the person they are accusing/defending and try to see their other posts that arent aimed to you. Perhaps you will get a bit more insight into their position as remember there is 7 of us trying to figure this out!
##FOS Miltonkram This one is important. This is the first real meaty post he makes. He starts with Mufaa. Pressuring a lurker; yes, sometimes necessary, but also very safe. This is like 99% lean meat. His thoughts on Milton is where it gets interesting. First, have a look at Milton's post before he FoS' me and then ShiaoPi: On May 23 2012 06:16 Miltonkram wrote:
--snipped
With the discussion generated I think there is finally enough info for me to start making cases. I'm currently reading through people's filters and making notes on them. I'll post again soon with my scum reads. I'm getting more and more confident that I have a couple solid cases to make. He states his intention to lay out a couple of cases he has been building. He starts with me. I feel he had justification here, as I didn't really explain my mistake in reading comprehension as well as I could have in regards to an earlier post of his. When he FoS' me, I realize that what I thought was a satisfactory explanation in fact needed more. I flesh it out so we are on the same page, and he drops his FoS. Make what you will of the double derp fest that we had, but the takeaway message here is that Milton in the end was satisfied with my explanation. Now, with that resolved, he immediately moves on to his second case against ShiaoPi. He said he had a couple, so we should be expecting two, no? There is also no reason to wait between posting the case between me, and the case between ShiaoPi. If he does, he could be dinged for guaranteeing two cases and only being forthcoming with one. Following his ShiaoPi case, he places a cursory vote onto Mufaa. I see this as good thinking. If you are going to pressure a lurker, this is the way to do it. You can vote for them with a very simple case of: you are not talking, please do so. We as townies have many tools to apply pressure. We can use words, FoS, and our votes. Milton uses his words and FoS' against me and ShiaoPi, and pressures a lurker in an efficient and fluff-free way. I see this as good play. This is the major point that Golden has against Milton...that he is flighty and indecisive with his suspicions. Reading what you just read, do you think he has this right? I feel he got a fair amount of town cred with his point here, because he put words to the thoughts going through many people's heads on Milton. Looking back, it is undeserved. I think this is why he has avoided any serious scrutiny yet. Next he gives his thoughts on Hegeo. Actually it's just a single thought: I agree with Mordanis, but I'm not going to vote right now. No reasoning for why he agrees, or why he doesn't agree enough to vote. Lastly he gives his read on ShiaoPi. Here is his read: I have no read, he is playing defensively. Pure filler. In his thoughts and comments section, he admits that he needs to spend more time on his reads. Ok, I'm glad he is addressing this. When I saw this I am inclined to cut him some slack. We will return to this later. He finishes with an FoS on Milton. This is coincides with his post and is expected. Post 6) + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 19:27 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@ShaoPi your #FOS of s0lstice seems to be more in retaliation to his argument against you that of any solid evidence.
That being said.
@s0lstice, i can't see any reason why you're going for ShaoPi.
both of you seem to be tunnelling eachother for knee-jerk voting the other. could each of you please write in dot points your arguments. I just need a simplified summary of your cases as i'm having trouble following them.
@Miltonkram. Thank you for your swift reply. I understand that you can now see the holes in your play and it looks like you're ready to get into the swing of posting a bit more content. To get that started.. can you clarify your stance on ShaoPi for me in dot points also.
i'm still waiting to see the community's response to my post on you and i'd like some discussion before i remove or act on my #FOS. your comments have been noted.
This post is filler, and creates more filler. He says me and ShiaoPi are tunneling eachother. The presumed intent of saying this is to stress: stop tunneling! Except after this he encourages us both to restate our entire argument against eac hother. This seems like a contradiction, and as said, encourages the creation of more filler (rehashed arguments). He also cuts Milton some slack, saying he recognizes that Milton has realized some holes in his play, and is ready to contribute more. For further slack, Milton is to post his views on ShiaoPi. He leaves his FoS on Milton until he gets more input from the community, and presumably from Milton himself. Post 7) + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 19:35 O.Golden_ne wrote:I'm liking that concise post sciberbia. Goodluck in exam. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 19:13 sciberbia wrote:
It's obvious to me that those people under suspicion will push for a Mufaa lynch, just because they view him as an easy lynch and not too controversial. I'm not really going to hold it against you for pushing Mufaa, but let's face it (sorry for the hypothetical Release), if mufaa isn't mafia, who do the mafia have a really easy time getting mislynched? I agree with this point. Mufaa is a very easy option for us to lynch day one. Consider that he may be used as an escape option for the Mafia in day one. I personally think he will be modkilled. If Mufaa isn't modkilled i'll be super suspicious of him. BECAUSE, the only thing that can him from a modkill is a vote. Lurking that hard, followed by a vote is good grounds for a vig snipe or a day 2 lynch. I'm out for while. Lurker talk. The message he is conveying here is that if Mufaa swoops in and votes at the last minute, he will be super suspicious of him. Obvious...useless filler. Post 8) + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 06:32 O.Golden_ne wrote:
thank god i didn't miss the deadline. I went to sleep and forgot to vote.
I'm going to stand by my earlier posts about miltonkram.
but before i vote i want to say that i will change to Hegeo in the case that we dont get enough votes for a lynch, i like Mordanis and Releases argument on him.
In the case the miltonkram flips town, i'm going seriously question ShiaoPi however.
@Hegeo can you please swap your vote of Mufaa, he is most likely modkilled.
##Vote: Miltonkram
He casts his vote for the lynch, and it's Milton. He says he's going to stand by his earlier statements. Remember he said he was going to withhold judgement until he gets new info. Yet, he makes no reference to any info that affected his decision. Also, note that Milton has obliged his earlier request and shared his thoughts on ShiaoPi: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote:My top scumread is still ShiaoPi. Essentially, he plays scum exactly how I would. His entire D1 posts have been pretty wishy-washy and noncommittal, allowing him freedom later in the game because he hasn't actually tied himself strongly to the information or accusations in any of his posts. With that in mind let's look at his first post. + Show Spoiler +Just came back from university.
First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense.
Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game.
I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied.
The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it. Here's what he does, he compliments the most active player early on (Release) and talks about playstyle. Then he adds some weak suspicions toward sciberbia. Suspicion that he can easily back down from, and that certainly isn't breaking any new ground. Wait, doesn't this sound a lot like another early post? + Show Spoiler +Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary. That's right, his entire first post is a rehash of one of my first posts. A post I made before him. If my first post wasn't breaking any new ground, his certainly wasn't. It seems a good way to blend in with the crowd without sticking his neck out there. He goes on to immediately back down from his pressure with this post. + Show Spoiler +Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia:
I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now. Here we get the first taste of ShiaoPi's tactic. He pressures someone and then states, "Oh, I wasn't actually pressuring you." It seems like a good way to blend in while also "contributing" as scum. This is just the first instance of his noncommittal aggression. Golden pays no attention to this either, except for an indirect reference in that he will be suspicious of ShiaoPi of Milton flips town. We still have no idea if he even read what Milton wrote. Post 9+10) + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 19:00 O.Golden_ne wrote:woah, Doctor killed. we're really behind now  i'll mull over hegeo's final post before day two, it's really hard to draw links between players so early. but alot of what he has said works out. also Release, i dont think there was much of fiasco at the end of day one. the voting was fairly logical and it didnt seemed too rushed from anyone. people just switched over the the mis-lynch of hegeo. On May 25 2012 12:26 O.Golden_ne wrote:
Okay this sucks. 2 team members down. I have been following but wok is super busy so I have to quickly duck in here during my lunch break on my phone. In going to write a large analysis this afternoon so about 5hours from thi post. Im not going to address sciberbias final post yet though I think it has credence.
The most heated debate at the moment is between 3 candidates.
Release, Morsanis and miltonkram.
Here's my read on the events at the moment.
Hegeos got smashed, and his final post carries the most weight of anything in this entire thread.
Since this time both Morsanis and release have been scrambling to defend themselves and appear least scummy. By the fact that they are both quite defensive I feel that miltonkram is right in saying one of them is most likely scum. However miltonkram by posting this opinion in relationship to his former situation makes me feel like he's using this as a great opportunity to avert attention from himself over to shiaopi.
It is my opinion so far that miltonkram is mafia, and one of either Morsanis or release is also.
I also think that his repetition about the 50/50 things makes him look very scummy as there is little content for so much taking. I'll quote it in my big post this arvo if it's still relevant.
Post 9 is a hegeo reaction post. It's neutral. Post 10 is a summation of his thoughts on current events. He captures the general mood that release and mordanis are in a little hot water, and the rest is mostly WIFOM on Milton. The complete picture...I see the summation of everything he has done, and I certainly do not see a dedicated scum hunter. His only real try was on Milton, and when dissected, it doesn't seem like much of a try at all. What I see is a creator of filler, and someone who is neither hot nor cold, but always lukewarm. Someone who seems unaffected by the ticking clock, counting down to the death of the town. All together it seems very, very scummy.
Accountability
+ Show Spoiler +I add this now. Accountability creates trust. It makes it easier for other townies to read you as green A good townie feels accountable for his own actions, only makes promises he can keep, and makes the most of the time he has to play. Golden does none of this. Lets start here: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:14 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@Hegeo. I'd love to see your response to Releases accusation. As his is the most tangible accusation to date. Because he's acctually got a vote behind it! Please rebut. I'll be posting more in my lunch break in 5 hours. Five hours comes and goes. Here is his next post: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:05 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@Release. Sorry, i am here don't stress, it 6:00pm and i finished at 5:00pm l logged on the moment i got home!! It's hard to make time except for after work. I am catching up on all the happenings and will post a more in depth post in a moment.
He addresses why he wasn't around to fulfill his promise. A good townie does this. He also deserves some slack for the first occurance. A good townie would also note to themselves here that maybe I should be more careful about when/what I promise to post, considering how busy I am lately. He should be cautious about putting himself in a position to break another promise. He doesn't do this: + Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 12:26 O.Golden_ne wrote:
Okay this sucks. 2 team members down. I have been following but wok is super busy so I have to quickly duck in here during my lunch break on my phone. In going to write a large analysis this afternoon so about 5hours from thi post. Im not going to address sciberbias final post yet though I think it has credence. It's been 7 hours and counting at the time I'm writing this. He could have legit gotten too busy to post, but this is strike two, and it's worth noting. There are other occurances, and I've covered most of them in my first section. He promises to be most active in the evening in his first post. He was on the first evening, but on the eve of the first lynch, he popped in to vote and then dropped off the face of the earth. He says he will consider additional info on Milton before making his decision to vote for him, but then votes without saying why other than trusting his original read. He claims interest in Milton's opinion on ShiaoPi, then has no reaction to it when Milton obliges him. He asks myself and ShiaoPi to restate our cases against each other, then ignores them completely. In Post 5, he admits to needing more info to flesh out his opinions, but then doesn't refine his opinion on really anyone but Milton (and to what effect? his refinement was to cut him some slack, and then he retracted it wordlessly when he voted for him). This is a trend. He does not hold himself accountable for his actions.
Conclusions:
+ Show Spoiler +The portion on scumhunting stands on it's own. He isn't really trying to find scum at all, because he is the scumdog millionaire. The section on accountability does not stand on it's own. It can be explained as bad townie play. Here is the crux of the argument, the thing that links to two together. A townie who is flaky, and is never around when he says he will be, would still make his best effort to find scum with the time he DOES have available. I think I have clearly shown that Golden does not do this.
There you have it folks. Thoughts?
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EBWOP: Regarding you all opening your filters and following along, I ended up taking the time to include Golden's posts in my post, so this is not necessary if you don't want to.
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Alright town, this is the first of my two reads on the players that were gunning for hegeo:
Release
He started the game fairly aggressive out of the gate. He showed he was willing to pressure people, almost too willing, because I was starting not to take his pressure seriously. Other than that he did his best to cut through the generic fluff questions that sometimes bog down early newbie games (Lynch v. no-lynch? Should we roleclaim early? etc.). True, some of the stuff he posted was fluff, such as this,
+ Show Spoiler +First bold: Logical, a bit obvious, but should be stated.
Second bold: Are you saying that townies will always show townie posts? This is certainly not the case. Townies can and do make mistakes, which is probably the cause of 99% of mislynches in mafia. Honest =/= True. For example, if you are being "honest" in this post, you have clearly made a "mistake." Is that to suggest that you are Mafia?
A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
but almost all his other content early D1 seems like aggressive townie play to me.
Moving on to N1/D2:
There are two scummy actions from him. First, he brings attention back on me. If he's mafia, it's because I'm an easy target that he won't get much flak for targeting. If he's town, it's because he doesn't want the town to forget my case in the commotion. There's no sense reading too much into it. Everyone thinks I'm scum and a healthy town environment shouldn't let me crawl between the floorboards. His second scummy action was in response to my post
+ Show Spoiler +I think we all need to take a step back and look at the events of D1 a little more logically and less reactively. Why would a scum team both tunnel the same player? The only thing we're sure of is that hegeo flipped town, that doesn't make his analysis correct, anymore than it makes it incorrect. That being said, since Release and Mordanis were the two to put the most pressure on hegeo, I'd like to analyze their play under all possible circumstances.
Mafia + Mafia
Why would a scum team link their names D1 of the game? I think we all agree that Mordanis and Release were the most vocal against hegeo, and that could mean they tunneled him because they saw him as a weak target that they wouldn't get much flak for going against. If they are both scum, this is the most likely explanation of their actions. However, I just don't see a good enough reason for scum to band together on D1. That's a short-sighted play that would come back to bite them in the ass later. Possibility: least likely.
Townie + Townie
If both players were indeed town, an explanation of their actions could be that they just weren't ever satisfied with hegeo's defense. Let's face it, hegeo did not do a good job of defending himself. If he had, I would be the one lynched and he'd still be alive. So far, besides their knee-jerk reactions to hegeo's post, I'd say that they both have had decent, but not great town play. The bad news is, they've both played really scummy ever since hegeo's big reveal. Possibility: still unlikely, but more likely than M + M.
Townie + Mafia
Here's how I think it happened. The townie player felt he had a good case against his percieved scum target, and was encouraged that others felt the same way. The scum player knew he wouldn't be the only one targeted when hegeo flipped town and thus pulled the trigger and kept pressure on him. Worst case scenario for the scum player is a 50/50 situation where both he and the townie player are under pressure. Possibility: most likely situation.
That is my read on last night's events. The good news is I think we have the scum player in the worst possible situation. A 50/50 lynch is still better than a 2/7 lynch. I'm going to go over both Mordanis' and Release's filters to see what kind of a case can be made against them. I've been thinking a lot about these events and I think my analysis is pretty good. Thoughts on this anyone?
in which I'm explaining the assumptions for D2 lynch that I would be working from. He posts this in response
+ Show Spoiler +Just answering the last part first: 2/7? You really think that a lynch is completely random? Trying to draw the town away from doing a real case on someone like you( who already has a substantial case) so they can get that 50/50 lynch?
Remember D1: we had a 50/50 lynch (in the town's eyes, it was 100/0 because both seemed scummy, but my point is that there were 2 candidates). Stop trying to trick others with the same illusions that Hegeo did; it's what got him lynched.
This is so full of shit and scum.
Mafia + Mafia: No. I have already posted on what the Mafia were actually doing when i was roasting hegeo:
The Mafia were trying to split our attention between two cases (Hegeo vs Milton/ShiaoPi/Solstice). Then you post some WIFOM filler (not a big deal since you actually posted some analysis)
Townie + Townie: Who's been playing scummy since hegeo's reveal? Mordanis knee-jerked, not me.
I posted an analytical response to hegeo's post and why the new guy was playing rather poorly. Also, i was the only one to point out that Hegeo's post mysteriously did not have a #5.
Townie + Mafia: Mordanis and i both had our own separate cases against Hegeo. There was a small overlap, but we had our own ideas, just against the same person. When that happens, it tends to look bad for that person.
Note that i am not refuting either of TT or TM yet, just pointing out the misinformation you are posting.
And so what if we pressured him? He seemed scummy. We're supposed to pressure scummy players. If we didn't, we would have your dream random lynch scenario where a townie is more likely lynched. You would love that wouldn't you?
Your case was the alternative to Hegeo's case. We chose him and we seemed to have forgotten about you. I haven't. If i'm still alive after the day post, you better watch yourself.
##FOS: Milton
which seems like it could be a delaying tactic, keeping me from following his case based on my assumptions. Since I didn't outright state my goal with that post, (to lay a foundation for the analysis I'm doing now) I will give him the benefit of the doubt. He could very well have mistook the intention of my post. I post this now because if Release is scum, these are a few points of play that look scummy to me. It is important that we continue to keep an eye on him.
The most important part of the post I'm making now is right here: I can't make a strong case for Release being mafia, but I'm confident I can make a case against Mordanis. I've been reading through his filter for the past couple hours, and I've made decent headway into my analysis of his actions. Once again, I believe one of the duo (Release, Mordanis) is scum. I'm pretty sure Mordanis is the scum half of that duo based on what I've read in his filter. My next post will include my full accusations against him.
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Damn, I'm getting called into work on my day off.
@ s0Lstice- I think your post has merit, but I will need to re-read it a few times to make sure it holds up.
My accusations of Mordanis are only half complete. I will finish them after I get back from work and before I go to sleep. Also, where the hell is skware? I hope we didn't replace a lurker just to get another one.
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@ mordanis about the rest of that post:
You pointed out an interesting problem: We have way too many people suspect because they are not posting useful information.
This goes back to my earlier post which i said: If you're not going to post anything useful, why feel obligated to post?
This seems like a dead end because Hegeo was the one who refuted this, but i need to look more carefull to see who else promoted non-useful posts.
+ Show Spoiler +I was much more active earlier and i'm not going to be able to keep that up. I am on some medication and it makes me kind of high and it makes my reading comprehension low, so i need to read more carefully before posting.
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EPT
