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On April 29 2012 07:26 VisceraEyes wrote: Anyone who I feel lies in round A will not get my vote to survive round B. SO LET IT BE WRITTEN!!!
I suspect this is going to turn into a lie. Anyway, this should be a very interesting game, certainly looking forward to this to start...
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On April 30 2012 05:26 Palmar wrote: I need a volunteer to read the OP and figure out the rules for me so I don't have to.
No need, I already broke the system, gg.
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Sheth+Gonzaw+Me scumteam winning, calling it now, deja vu! :D
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On April 30 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote: One thing I was thinking is, for instance to scumhunt normally this round, and have EVERYBODY claim what their answer will be in the thread (YES or NO) We force the "scummy" players to vote for the mayority, and the most townie ones vote for the minority to save them from Round B.
And how would that be useful? As nice as it would to believe people will vote for something co-operatively in a game of this size, it just won't happen. If you somehow manage to gather and confirm all townies, and ensure they vote in a certain pattern, that still enables scum to do whatever they want, and even if they outed themselves, they may still be able to get in the minority constantly. It's just not gonna work in a game where votes are hidden until the results. (Where it will be obvious who voted for what)
I'm not expecting to see gamebreaking strategies (especially ensuring as making them work flawlessly is quite hard), so please concentrate on finding the scum instead of trying to come up with some epic plan. And don't get greedy. If we find someone that we are sure to be scum, then do everything possible to get that person killed or lynched. If we try to get greedy and be smartasses and try to lynch three scum at once, it'll most likely bite ourselves in the ass.
Regarding PMs... anyone can PM me and say/ask anything they want, but I promise nothing to no-one as of yet.
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On April 30 2012 13:11 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Well, I agree with gonzaw's statement that a strategy for Round A is also necessary. Scum are able to coordinate their votes, so they can always split themselves so that only half end up in the lynch pool ever if we let people just do whatever. So, we need some kind of strategy to make sure that we can get a decent amount of scummy people in the majority, that we can actually hold people to it, and that's feasible.
Obviously, an optimal strategy for lynch choice would be for every person to vote the same way. Then, everyone makes it into Phase B, and no one is safe from being able to be lynched. This makes Phase B more complicated, but I think it's worth it for the choice. What do people think? Results are revealed afterwards, so we should know if someone's lying and made it into the minority. Anyone who does, we can lynch. I don't see a reason townies need to worry about being immune to lynch this early in the game. Perhaps in the later stages, where it's feasible scum rig the votes to kill them, but not now. If someone tries that now, we'll know about the ninja bandwagon, because again, the results are revealed. We should try to force scum to play by our rules. They'll be a lot more careful, because there's two scum teams, so I don't see them trying anything too ballsy. Any disadvantage going into the late-game will translate into the other scum-team having more influence than them.
Scum can do whatever they want, as far as I know. Of course it may be possible that there is some sort of vote-controlling/eliminating power-role, but we should not speculate about the setup and concentrate on working what we have. We will not be able to direct scum onto a certain vote unless we manage to fool them of town's intentions, which won't be easy. The thing is, most likely the scum will be splitting their vote to some extent to lessen their lynch candidates.
Also, are you joking about the optimal strategy? I don't really hope you are even imagining that to happen. Let's assume some fairy-tale scenarios about your "optimal strategy".
1) Everyone votes for the same option -> Everyone is able to be lynched (What are you trying to gain by this? The town can also benefit from not being lynched.) 2) The majority votes for the same option -> Well, what are you going to do about those who didn't? They are safe from lynch, and unless you possess a KP role you won't be able to do anything about it, but have to wait for the next day and try to manipulate votes in such a way that the person will end up in a majority. 3) Clusterfuck of votes on both options -> Most likely to happen
Considering 2), it is highly unlikely that only scum would try to achieve the minority. I do not see it beneficial at start, even for a townie, to try and gain trust by "voting with the majority". I just don't see it happening, and in the case all townies happened to vote for the majority, then there's just a huge bunch of townies (And maybe a scum or two), in line for getting lynched.
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On April 30 2012 20:55 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 13:11 Cephiro wrote: Regarding PMs... anyone can PM me and say/ask anything they want, but I promise nothing to no-one as of yet. Can you clarify what you mean by this? You don't promise to answer questions in private or what kind of promises are you exactly talking about here?
I mean exactly what I said. I promise nothing to no-one as of that moment. Try and gain my trust if you want such to happen.
I've caught up on the thread.
I will not be agreeing with this whole "Palmar for King"-thingy.
I am already suspicious of a few people.
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On May 01 2012 06:17 syllogism wrote: Well that is a completely pointless statement then but okay
Who are you suspicious of and why? Why did you find it important to point out you have suspicions and then didn't bother to name any?
At the moment I am afraid to tell you I have no reason to share my reads with you.
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EBWOP: Oh, also anyone that has claimed to Palmar (or even more, syllo), should get their heads checked.
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On May 01 2012 06:58 VisceraEyes wrote:I wanna learn how to scumhunt without peoples' reads! X( I still new at this
Thou shall empty your mind and look at each post objectively, find the hidden connections between them, or the lack of aforementioned.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 01 2012 07:41 Radfield wrote: Also, to everyone talking about how scum will just blatantly hop onto the minority side of any plan, that's silly. The whole goal of the game is to figure out who the mafia are. Honestly, killing mafia is not going to be a problem.
Imagine this, Protactinum publicly proclaims all the members of one team. Do you honestly think we'll struggle to get them killed? It might not happen all at once, but they'd be dead pretty quick.
Likewise, if we all co-operate and form a list of likely townies, then put said townies on into the minority, scum are unable to just cross the line en masse. Townies should have no fear of getting lynched. Even if you are worried about being on the chopping block, it's far better for the town as a whole for you to just vote with the majority and try to defend yourself instead of jumping to the minority. Jumping ship only ensures that you will waste our vig shots. Shots we will undoubtedly need.
We're a team, lets act like one. The problem with having so many experienced players is that everyone wants to measure their penis, and no one wants to back down.
I guarantee this game is designed to punish poor play. Over-reliance on voting schemes, mass claims, comparing role names, role=alignment, low activity, refusal to co-operate, etc. That doesn't mean none of those things can be helpful, we simply need to keep it in mind.
You should never take killing mafia for granted. The more mistakes you make, the harder it becomes. That's why I wrote what I wrote as a reminder, I've seen such happen way too many times.
On May 01 2012 07:41 Radfield wrote: Why are you writing things that are blatantly obvious?
Could be said about your post also. Fact is, what someone considers obvious may not be obvious to everyone. It's better to bring it out and make sure everyone gets it, rather than assume everyone knows.
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On May 01 2012 08:00 Katina wrote: The mafia team will always be voting in the 2 to 1 method.
Most likely, yes. Always, no.
I can very well see all 3 mafia members voting for the same option, especially in the early game. A vote or two from a few random townies that have been deceived in PM-Land (or even worse, publically in thread), tadah. No worries.
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On May 01 2012 08:01 prplhz wrote: Ace likes the hypothetical "what if everybody is an asshole?", well then this game is lost already now isn't it?
Please don't tell me you're saying you don't know how to make reads on assholes? :p
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On May 01 2012 08:07 VisceraEyes wrote:I'm against anyone "telling" me who should be in the minority. Round A has a built in randomization factor in the votes being revealed after the deadline - in this way it's impossible for scum and town alike to just "jump into the minority". I feel like everyone should just honestly answer their interpretation of the question and then we'll decide out of the minority that's created who gets to live and die come Phase B. In fact, FUCK IT I'M KING NOW! Your King Hereby Decrees:- Honestly answer your interpretation of the question in the minority round this and every following day
That's....that's it. Do it. And town will PROFIT! It will allow us much more time for finding scum every day (because there's no talk in Phase A about who should be "king" or who should be "in the minority" or whatever the fuck. We can spend our time looking for scum...by SCUMHUNTING!:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FOR THE TOWN!!!!!
I approve. Make me prince will you?
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On May 01 2012 08:10 gonzaw wrote:Cephiro:Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034&user=183812http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=5#84http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=5#87I found this odd, because you started very aggresively. There were some good plans (mine) floating around, and you behemently opposed them. The point is that you didn't come up with any of your own or try to generate any other discussion. You inserted doubt into plans and just bickered about them, you didn't come up with content of your own. Well, maybe honestly you thought those plans were bad, so that in itself wouldn't bother me. However, you post this: Show nested quote +I'm not expecting to see gamebreaking strategies (especially ensuring as making them work flawlessly is quite hard), so please concentrate on finding the scum instead of trying to come up with some epic plan. And don't get greedy. If we find someone that we are sure to be scum, then do everything possible to get that person killed or lynched. If we try to get greedy and be smartasses and try to lynch three scum at once, it'll most likely bite ourselves in the ass. You are giving the usual "People stop discussing policy lynches/plans/shit and start finding scum!", yet I don't see you following your own advice. When someone asked you for your reads, you said "At the moment I am afraid to tell you I have no reason to share my reads with you.". What? You said we should try and find scum, but you don't want to contribute your reads? You started very aggressive and "keen" to find scum, but you were inactive for some time later and when you came back you didn't put any effort into doing so. I know how you can play as town Cephiro, I observed Death Factory and you were contributing and making plans like crazy. Being this aggresive and indifferent to plans is unlike you.
I honestly think all the plan discussion in D1 has been stupid. I do not see people agreeing in as quickly as 24-48 hours, and it serves as a great cloak for scum, as it derails the conversation to people jabbing at each other about an optimal way of trying to game the game with voting strategies, instead of hunting the scum.
Lets say someone finally came up with a plan that everyone magically agreed on. Now, what will you do with it if you've found no scum?
Just because I did not publicly share my reads with syllo does mean I haven't done it with anyone else. PM Land is a wonderful place to be in. If I don't trust syllo, why should I give him my reads? And making up false reads in the threads is just something that someone would point out as an contradiction by PMs later, and then bad townies would be jumping all over the fact and be distracted from the actual work that needs to be done.
As I've said a trillion times before, do not try to metagame me. If you try, you've already lost.
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On May 01 2012 08:20 prplhz wrote: Who said anything about it being determined by 1 player? It's always been Palmar, syllogism and Radfield and I doubt anybody would complain if you wanted Foolishness in there instead or whoever really.
What does "give up their individual brilliance" even mean?
So, if your way of playing TL Mafia is sheeping Palmar, syllo and Radfield whenever they are in the game, cool. Mine isn't.
On May 01 2012 08:20 Katina wrote: There's no reason for Mafia to take that chance. You really think they can decieve people in PM's like that? Have you been deceived in PMs like that? People are flipping coins to decide votes, and I doubt anyone is actually listening to Palmar. Three votes for the same option is to obviously, especially so early where people are extra paranoid. They would try to leave a little of a connection as possible to each other. With that said, there is no reason mafia would take that chance.
Thus we can always expect the 2-1 split. Then it's just a matter of looking at who is voting for whom and matching people up.
Lets assume there are gullible players like you that "know" there is a 2-1 split coming. Lets assume that the mafia may take a very minor early risk, and all vote themselves to the majority to look better in the long run.
Then these gullible players that are sure of the 2-1 split have already been mislead. Win.
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On May 01 2012 08:28 gonzaw wrote: So why not create discussion about something else? Why not contribute in other manners? Why not doing anything productive other than bickering against every single plan being discussed and then disappearing from the face of the earth?
Also like I said, I don't see you being this "opposed" to plans. I read Death Factory and you were making plans all over the place. I don't believe you when you say "I honestly think all D1 plan discussions are stupid".
Just because I am not doing something productive in your opinion, _in the thread_, does not mean I wouldn't actually be doing productive stuff. Everything I do has a reason. As for "disappearing from the face of earth", as much as I like mafia games, even I have a life to live.
I am not opposed to plans if they are good. So far I don't like what I see, and I have no game-breaking plan to offer either. Just because I was doing some "super-mega-epic-plan" in an earlier game does not mean I would do it in this game. Just stop trying to metagame, you are shooting yourself in the head. Whatever I have done in any games before does in no way relate to what I do now. I do not say that "All D1 plan discussions are stupid", but that statement is true to my opinion when we are talking about the D1 of this game in this thread.
On May 01 2012 08:28 gonzaw wrote: How about BOTH making a plan and finding scum? I'm trying to find scum and I think I found 2, so how can you tell me I'm doing otherwise?
You can't seriously oppose plans because you think nobody will find scum. The plans come 2nd in finding scum, they've always been, so you can't seriously use that to justify your hatred against plans.
I have no hatred against plans, you are just overthinking and confirmation biasing your own thoughts. You think you found 2 scum, well good for you. Now come up with enough evidence so that the town believes you, and then we'll see if we can get them killed?
On May 01 2012 08:28 gonzaw wrote: You should give reads in the thread. You may not trust syllo, but surely you trust all townies right?
If you post your reads in the thread you are 100% guaranteed THAT ALL TOWNIES WILL READ THEM. Even so, if you are doing this all in PM land, why did you say before that you will only use PMs to answer questions and stuff?
Why would you make up "false reads" in the thread? Wut?
I did not say I will use PMs to only answer questions, you've misunderstood once again. Also, I just explained the thing about false reads. Read it again.
Basically: If I have information that I do not scum want to know, why on earth should I make it public for them? I'll gladly share my reads which do not involve information scum can benefit about in such a manner, but certain things are best kept secret, or shared with only a few chosen ones.
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On May 01 2012 08:41 Ace wrote: You gonna let him just talk to you like that? If it was me there is no way that would happen. Stand up for yourself.
Does it look like I am not replying to him? I stand by what I said. And as I already explained to him via PM, he is wasting his time on me at the moment. Most of his case is purely out of metagame, which is useless. It just won't do.
I feel like I've explained anything I needed to, if you disagree, feel free to continue in thread or via PM, I am fine with either.
Funny that you talk about standing for oneself when your play in-thread so far does not look much more impressive either. But I have my beliefs of why you are doing what you are doing, which is why I do not see a reason to pressure you about it, yet.
If you want to pressure me for somewhat the same to an lesser extent, feel free to. I am always ready to defend myself and improve my play. Just not necessarily to fit the format of play you consider optimal.
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On May 01 2012 08:51 Ace wrote: I don't need to stand up for myself though - people know I'm invincible to being lynched. #FinalBossStatus
Doesn't matter, guns still exist... they do the job quite well too. :p
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On May 01 2012 08:58 gonzaw wrote: Yeah, I think you are not doing anything productive in the thread, why wouldn't you? I don't know what "reasons" you are talking about, how am I supposed to believe you? What "reasons" are they?
If you want me to stop "wasting my time" (thing from PM), then why don't you post in the thread something productive? You are just telling me "I'm doing an awesome pro-town job in PM land, you just have to believe me. Oh I won't do shit in the thread, but believe me I'm dominating the game in PM-Land *wink* *wink*"
How the fuck am I supposed to believe you? Or even if that was true (that you are PMing with people and shit), I still won't know what you are doing, so I still won't know if what you are doing is pushing a scum agenda or not.
Are you scum trying to make me look bad or are you just that thickheaded? If you want me to be more productive in-thread, then how about you stop making these horrible cases I have to keep responding to.
I'll post something productive when I think it is needed. I'm not gonna start posting fluff-productive crap just for the sake of making you smile.
So where have I claimed I am dominating the game in PM-Land? You keep exaggerating my claims all the time on purpose, either you are unconciously using confirmation bias to convince yourself you are right, or then you are just scum doing it on purpose.
If you need to know what I'm doing in PM-Land, then ASK instead of crying aloud in the thread. Or maybe you could try to earn my trust and I could reply you like anyone else I trust. Doesn't sound that hard no? For all you know I am not necessarily even pushing an agenda, but only sharing opinions and reads, yet you make it look like I am pushing for some epic plan via PMs?
On May 01 2012 08:58 gonzaw wrote: I made a post pointing out the evidence I found. The only way to get scum killed is for them to be in the majority, and have nobody else vote for them.
I want people to post their opinions on what I posted, and let them decide if they will vote for you/chaoser or not. If they don't, then yes I'm "trying to get them killed".
That's good. Now just think a bit more before you post, at the current state your cases are in my opinion easily scrubbed off, which is something you don't want to happen, whether you are town or a scum making a fake case on a townie.
So tell me how are you going to ensure you get the scum in the majority? And then ensure no-one votes them?
On May 01 2012 08:58 gonzaw wrote: So let me get this straight:
The only way to lynch scum, is to have other townies not vote for them in Round B The only way other townies won't vote for them in Round B is if they know they are scum The only way they will know they are scum is if you post your scumread in the thread and post a convincing case against them
Reciprocally, if you don't post your scumreads in the thread you won't be able to get scum lynched. So please, post your scumreads, thoughts about chaoser and other players.
Bolded is false, although it is one of the best methods for doing so. I will share my reads when I feel it contributes to the thread. At the moment I do not possess a completely pre-made case on anyone, and I'm not currently making one either. If you want to hear very vague opinions about why I think someone is leaning a certain way, sure. Or if you want me to make some super-complex-game-saving theory which busts all 6 scum to you right now, then you're best off looking elsewhere. No-one does such with certainty at this stage of the game.
On May 01 2012 08:58 gonzaw wrote: Why am I best off "dropping it"? Why do you want me to "concentrate on others"? If I think you are scum, why would I concentrate on somebody else? By the same reasoning, I concentrate on someone else, and that player will tell me to "concentrate on someone else" as well.
Dude, wtf is that all about? If there is some "hidden" info you have that will destroy the world if revealed, then I don't care don't post it. But contribute, post reads, thoughts, care about the game in the thread if you are town; if not you'll only make me tunnel you more.
Tunneling in any case is retarded and just makes you look bad. Concentrated pressure while still being open for other options however is not. You can keep tunnelling me on all you want, but all you are doing is waste time of at least one townie effectively. I like how you keep up the pressure, but even if I was scum your current case is not enough, or then I've overestimated the level of our co-players.
You're best of dropping it because you are currently hardcore tunneling an useful townie. Why do you think I am open and even giving you tips of making a better case on me later if I was mafia?
Why do you bring up some "hidden" info shit up again? Especially about anything that would destroy the world? Are you trying to make your post look more dramatic on purpose?
Now, are you finally done and ready to move to something useful, or are you going to keep tunneling?
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On May 01 2012 09:27 Ace wrote: pro shit. I would have come up with this an hour from now so I'll just take credit for this.
If you want, you can just copypaste all my arguments if gonzaw starts pressuring you and take credit for that too. Saves you a lot of effort that would be wasted otherwise.
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On May 01 2012 09:34 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Hey Cephiro, if you yourself say you aren't doing anything productive, then how are you a useful townie? Also, why are you so quick to call gonzaw out as tunneling you when he's only been talking about you for two pages of the thread? That's hardly tunneling, it's pressure, and you're reacting very badly to it. Why don't you want to be talked about so badly? Do you have some secret reason for needing to avoid scrutiny?
... Really, I'll make sure the next game I join has a reading and english comprehension test before entering.
As for trying to answer more seriously, you are right, I am probably not the most useful townie right now. Does that make me scum? No, it doesn't. There are many others that are not being useful in the way you want them to. Are they also all scum as well? I say tunneling because he admit he would be happy to tunnel if so needed, and tunneling is something you shouldn't do in any circumstances.
Although, I guess each and every one of us have our own opinions and limits about what is pressuring and what is tunnelling.
You can make cases on me every single minute for all I care, I'll respond each of them if that's what is required to get the fact I am a townie into those thick heads of yours. Why I don't want to be accused with bad cases one after another that are further continued with confirmation bias and exaggeration? Because it's a waste of good town (or scum) effort that could be directed to something useful.
As for having secret reasons, sure, I'll come out of the closet since you all keep asking for my secret reasons. I am a vigilante, I breadcrumbed it when I was talking to Ace about how guns still work. Satisfied?
You don't think I'm being serious about claiming vig? Why not? Standard D1 play no?
+ Show Spoiler +If you take the claim seriously, do me a favour and get yourself lynched.
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On May 01 2012 09:44 gonzaw wrote: The "dominating PM-land" and the "hidden shit that will end the world" are obviously hyperboles. The thing is that you seem to think that you can abstain from posting in the thread just because PMs exist, and that makes it impossible to do anything for people not in the PM-loop (whether it exists or it doesn't exist and you are bluffing).
I made the "horrible case" because you weren't contributing, you refused to give out scumreads when asked, and you were very aggressive against all plans being mentioned (and of course, because you weren't "productive").
Okay then: what are you doing in PM land? Are you pressuring people? Asking for reads, or giving them yourselves?
Why don't you want to post anything in the thread? Why won't you post reads in the thread? Why won't you pressure people in the thread? Why do you want to be "excused" and want me to "concentrate on someone else" and let you live til lategame just so I can "analyse your play later"?
If you are trying to make a serious case, then stop using hyperboles. Does it look like I am abstaining from posting? When I am online I am constantly responding to anything going on as I read it, how about you try to blame some of the real lurkers of that? And yeah, sure, I'm just bluffing about everything. In reality I am here sitting on my ass, trying to make a record on how many cases I can get on myself as townie without dying.
You are twisting my words AGAIN here. You keep exaggerating and lying, if you keep doing it I see no reason to respond to you anymore. You claim I have refused to give out my _scum_reads when asked. That is false. All I have refused is that I did not give any of my reads to syllo. Do you have a problem with that? If you think I've been aggressive so far, then you clearly don't know my play at all, which is why your metagaming arguments are even more useless than they ever could be.
I am doing several things in PM-Land, which of certain are none of your concern. I can say I am both asking and giving opinions and reads, but I see no reason to tell you more.
Your last paragraph is a copy-paste with a few new words from earlier posts of yours. Stop making up the same lies all over and over again. I am not going to respond to the same questions five times if you haven't learned to read.
Here's a free tip: You don't make a proper case by asking same questions over and over again until they are annoyed and can't be assed to answer it for the 5th time.
On May 01 2012 09:44 gonzaw wrote: How is it scrubbed off?
Please: if someone thinks my case against Cephiro is total crap, please state so and state why
I make a case against you and you instantly discredit me, turn aggrressive against me and basically misdirect everything I'm saying.
Why don' t you thoroughly explain why my case is horrible and can be scrubbed off? Please I'm waiting.
Also wtf? (at the bolded bit) What does that have anything to do with what we are discussing?
How is it not? From my point of view you are just repeating same points over and over, exaggerating, unconciously (or on purpose but pretending not to) using confirmation bias. And you keep attacking me only when there are several other players that do many of the aforementioned things in a worse manner than I.
I don't need to discredit you. All I am saying your case on me is horrible so far, which in my opinion it is. No need to misdirect. All I'm saying is do everyone a favour and make one proper case on me once you have more material, rather than posting the same questions over and over again and pretending to be a retard and not understanding my answers, or just skipping them altogether. If you were properly reading my posts, you wouldn't even ask questions such as your confusion about my bolded part.
On May 01 2012 09:44 gonzaw wrote: So you don't have any "pre-made" cases on anyone, you are not making cases on anyone and you don't feel you have any reads worth contributing...
...then what are you waiting for?
Are you really justifying your play by saying "yep, I don't have anything to contribute so I'm not doing anything". That's scummy as shit.
And take the bolded bit, again totally misdirection and strawman. I never asked you to make a super complex plan to kill all 6 scum instantly, I (or rather other people) asked for your reads and thoughts on what's happening, and asked you to contribute more (or rather accused you of not doing that). You are going to tell me that "no-on does such at this state of the game"?
I have reads, but there is no point in it for me to share them at this point, as I do not have enough evidence to back it up. I'd rather wait a moment longer and make a proper case, rather than you who are grabbing at every single small straw and trying to make something out of it. The last part was simply the same exaggeration you keep using, I wanted to see if you'll call me out for something you are constantly doing yourself.
Also, if you didn't misunderstand my messages on purpose, you would clearly understand that the bolded sentence was refering to the exaggerated line just before it, basically: No-one provides certain all scum with certainty at this point of the game. Feel free to prove me wrong however.
On May 01 2012 09:44 gonzaw wrote: I may have chosen the word "tunneling" bad, but the point still stands. You want me to "concentrate" on someone else and "drop" this case against you...just because? You say you are an "useful townie" and use that as evidence for why my case is horrible and I should turn my attention off you. Can't you see how stupid that is?
CAN YOU PLEASE STOP TWISTING MY WORDS EVERY FUCKING TWO SENTENCES YOU MAKE? If you want a proper case, don't twist things as to how you see them, but look at them objectively. You're just wasting everyones time at the moment. Read my response to Wiggles if you still didn't find enough reasoning.
You are YET AGAIN asking me the SAME QUESTIONS for god knows how many times already.
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On May 01 2012 09:58 Mr. Wiggles wrote: So instead of having a tantrum and screaming that you're a townie, why don't you show that you're a townie by doing something useful? Your response to Gonzaw's case so far is to yell over and over that you're town. That's not going to convince anyone more than someone yelling that someone's scum over and over as a case.
Gonzaw said that you haven't done anything contributory. So, instead of doing something contributory, you waste a bunch of time having a back and forth with him. If his case is so horrible, and you're town, then why are you so worried about it? You say it won't stick, but instead of ignoring it, it looks like you're putting all your effort into fighting it. That doesn't seem like it fits to me. Instead, it looks like you feel inherently guilty and so you feel the need to address it.
Also, you say you're going to keep responding to cases to convince people you're town, but doing so does nothing to convince anyone of anything. You can refute what Gonzaw says, or show his case is bad, but that in no way shows that you're actually town, just that Gonzaw's case is weak.
So, if you want people to think you're town, give them a reason to think so! It's pretty simple, but you don't seem to get it. Crying that you're town doesn't make it so, playing for the town does. Your reactions to Gonzaw are just making you look scummy to me.
Well, since you clearly know how to prove oneself as townie, as I believe at this point of the game you are confirmed town to everyone, would you please tell me how I should respond to that case? I've done more than yell over and over that I'm town, but if his case consists of yelling me scum over and over, why should I put any more effort in countering his case? If he is a townie, he should understand by now that repeating the same points over and over is not a proper case.
Who says I'm worried? For all I care you can start making scum cases on me too. I just have a habit of answering accusations instead of running away or trying to sidestep them. I have nothing to be afraid of, why should I not defend myself?
Do you think it would look better if I just ignored all your cases on me? Now that would make me look really towny wouldn't it? By refuting Gonzaw's case I am trying to get him to understand that he needs to step up his play as town if he wants to catch scum. Although if he's the scum, I guess that effort is all in vain.
If you think I'm scummy, well, that's your problem for being on the wrong track. Maybe you'll see the light at some point.
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On May 01 2012 10:07 gonzaw wrote: About Cephiro:
Omg this is the Toad incident all over again. Okay, I won't argue more with you and this is the only thing I'll say: Cephiro is not posting any reads, contributing at all, and is only trying to argue the hell out of me right now and clog up the thread instead of addressing the issues I mentioned
So town, read this, read Cephiro's posts, and tell me what you think; I won't clog the thread up any more with this stupid back and forth Cephiro is making
I addressed every issue that you pointed out. If you really can't read worth that, that's not my problem.
Poor townies that end up wasting their time on reading all that crap. So gonzaw, you claim that I have not addressed the issues you've mentioned, but you've sidestepped every question I've posed you, such as why are you not pressuring others that are guilty of the same things, maybe in an even worse manner? Such as your jab at Ace which didn't even get any kind of response really.
Although, you'd do everyone a favour if you just stepped back and thought about things for a while instead of trying to convince everyone I am scum.
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On May 01 2012 10:28 gonzaw wrote: @Cephiro: If one of my issues I want you to address is "Cephiro is not posting any scumreads", then you have not addressed it at all, since you haven't posted any scumreads yet
I have answered this question several times. I will post my scumreads in thread once I have more evidence to back it. Unlike you, I don't feel like going around blaming everyone for whatever my little mind could come up with. I have already had multiple discussions about my reads with people via PM. I consider PMs a very good way of sharing opinions about your reads before working on a proper case on them.
The people that have asked me for my reads in PM have mostly received them, instead of crying out loud here in the thread asking for scumreads without evidence. Do you really want me to post scumreads without backing them up that bad?
On May 01 2012 10:28 gonzaw wrote: About your question: "Why are you not pressuring others that are guilty of the same things?"
What is that supposed to mean? I think chaoser is scum and I pressured him. I am suspicious of wbg and I pressured him. I don't really think Ace is that suspicious (because he played similarly in Space Station Mafia), but he doing jack shit at all is still worrying.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 01 2012 09:44 gonzaw wrote:At chaoser, wherebugsgo and shit:Really? You won't even post original content? Here: + Show Spoiler +On April 30 2012 18:14 gonzaw wrote: @syllogism: Maybe we can have a plan for using the Round B votes as well.
For instance, if we unanimously decide that Player X should be lynched (and he's eligible to be lynched of course), then we can do this: Player 1-Gives player nº2 5 votes Player 2-Gives player n3 5 votes ... Player X-does whatever he wants Player X+1-Gives player nºx+2 5 votes .. Last player- Gives player nº1 5 votes
Players not in Round B vote whoever they want but not X. That way, the only player lynched will be player X and all the rest will be saved.
However this depends on people unanimously deciding to lynch player X and following the plan, which I doubt will happen. We can come up with other things when the time comes, since it also depends on how many people are in Round B.
Speaking of which syllo, what do you think about the plans regarding Round A being discussed at the moment?chaoser, will you respond to the cases made against you? Will you contribute anything at all other than bickering about the plans? Really, chaoser, Ace, wherebugsgo, Cephiro, VisceraEyes, etc are only just bickering and bickering about the plans, and ignoring everything else said to them or happening in the thread. Surely all of you can't be mafia at the same time right? That would be too easy. So please start contributing and trying to hunt scum instead of just repeating the same "oh oh but you can't know who is in the majority! lol hoho" crap over and over again.
Is that what you call "pressuring wbg"? Also, can you please stop trying to be super-clever and metagaming, all you do is bring up stuff that people did in PREVIOUS GAMES. Read THIS GAME instead. Also, nice wishy-washy contradiction. "I don't think Ace is suspicious because of his meta, but it is still worrying." <-- So are you concerned of him or not?
On May 01 2012 10:28 gonzaw wrote: Now I ask you this question: "Why do you want me to pressure other players and not you?"
I have replied this question several times as well. Why do you keep asking the same questions over and over again?
Final time: Because you are wasting your time on me if you are a townie.
On May 01 2012 10:28 gonzaw wrote: So now you OMGUS? *sigh* Why wouldn't you post it in the thread if you thought I'm scum?
I said it before, this is just like that Toad incident. I called him out of not contributing and not caring about the game and he spent like 5 days tunneling me and arguing with me and yet not addressing what I was accusing him from, and ended up FoSing me saying things like "you will die tomorrow" without any reasoning whatsoever I think you are doing the same thing.
So if your play makes me suspicious it's omgus? You do realize that making a case on someone to distract others is something scum could very well do, which is why your point of OMGUS is just a clever way to sidestep accusations if you were scum.
Why I'm not posting here if I think you are scum? Because your filter is full of crap. There's nothing to separate you from a horrible townie or an pain-in-the-ass-annoying scum to me so far. Once I've got enough proof in my opinion to validate you as either, I'll post. As I've said multiple times before, I don't feel the need to go all "OMG HE MADE A TYPO, SCUMSLIP" on everyone about every smallest thing. I find one proper case much better than three horrible ones.
I find it funny how you are trying to turn it the other way around though, making a comparison to Toad tunneling you, trying to make it look like I am the one that tunnels you, when I've yet to go as far to say I am suspicious of you for constantly pushing a case that poor?
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On May 01 2012 10:43 gonzaw wrote: Cephiro, what will you answer this Round A? YES or NO?
None of your concern. I have sent in my answer already.
On May 01 2012 10:35 Mr. Wiggles wrote: A) Ignoring it if it's really that "horrible" B) Pointing out where I've actually been doing useful things or scumhunting C) Showing that I'm capable of scumhunting by actually joining relevant discussion in the thread
As I just finished saying, if you think his case is so bad, why are you putting so much effort into arguing with him? It's not serving any useful purpose as compared to say, spending your time looking for scum or doing pretty much anything else. Instead, it's an excuse to shit up the thread and look like you're doing something when you're not.
A) In my opinion no town player should ignore even bad cases made on them. You shouldn't use the quality of an case as an excuse to escape defending yourself, a real townie would have no need for that.
B&C) Done and done. If I however was to post a small case on someone right now, don't you think I'd get more tunneling for "trying to sway the attention away from me?"
I don't mind being in the center of the spotlight at all, it's just I feel sad for the townies that actually might waste their time in vain being deluded.
The rest of your post is mainly bringing up B & C further, which I have already responded to how I will act to multiple times. If you're not fine with it, then keep crying or get me killed.
I sincerely hope you two are not townies. -_-
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On May 01 2012 10:51 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Its day 1, I'm comfortably ignoring all of that cephiro / gonzaw have typed so far.
If someone could make a TL:DR ?
Or is it just : I THIKN YOUR MAFIA NO I THINK U R forever el fin ?
TLDR:
Gonzaw: "CEPHIRO IS SCUM! BECAUSE X" Cephiro: "NO I'M NOT BECAUSE Y" Gonzaw: "CEPHIRO IS SCUM BECAUSE X" Cephiro :"NO I'M NOT BECAUSE Y" Gonzaw: "CEPHIRO IS SCUM BECAUSE X" Cephiro: "CAN YOU JUST STFU AND DO SOMETHING USEFUL?" Gonzaw: "CEPHIRO IS SCUM BECAUSE X" Cephiro: "WHATEVER"
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Okay, after really hitting my head in the wall after reading your latest post (and boy that hurt!), I ask you of one thing.
Make one more post, which contains all the relevant things you want me to answer.
After seeing you try to rely on meta that badly, I've lost hope considering you, so I don't want to continue jabbering this any further than needed. Make one short post (or PM), I'll respond, and we'll leave it at that.
FYI: I voted in such manner that I should be in the majority, I have no fear of being in majority. You seem to like the idea of hiding behind Palmar's forgiveness though?
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 01 2012 11:09 gonzaw wrote:Meta is a very effective tool. Most people use it very badly and just say things like "Oh, he was active in that game when he was town, he's inactive right now so he's scum". You have to analyze behaviour and motivation when you use meta. Here is your filter from DF2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324050&user=183812You can instantly find differences. For instance, you are calm and analytical. In this game you are overcome by "emotion", you are very aggressive and you don't have a focus on things, you just cling on to something (arguing with me for instance) and stay with it for the rest of the game. When people accuse you (syllogism for instance) and start shitting on you you keep your cool. Now someone FoSes you for the first time and you go on a rampage. In that game you obviously care about the game. You post your thoughts every once in a while to keep up with discussion, and you do it in a straight manner without misdirecting or anything. Here you don't care about discussion either. You started shitting on people for pointing out plans. Then when people want your reads you tell them you won't post shit. Then when someone takes notice of this and FoSes you you flip your shit and tunnel the hell out of him, without even caring about other things from the game. For instance, you don't care about the most important part: finding scum.
"Oh, he was analytical and calm in that game when he was town, he's being more "aggressive" now, so he's scum."
Do you see what you are doing here? You do realize it doesn't even take a skilled person in psychology to fake that, or act in another way on purpose?
As for your final question, my final answer: I will give my reads when I have enough content to back it up.
If you think I am scummy for not going around pointing fingers when I am unsure myself... well, I'll let everyone make their conclusions of that. As I said before, I find making one proper case more useful rather than make 3 jabs at different people without anything to back it up.
That is all.
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On May 01 2012 12:02 gonzaw wrote: "Oh, he was analytical and calm in that game when he was town, he's being more "aggressive" now, so he's scum."
Even though both sentences have the same structure, they are not the same. Being "analytical and calm, taking pressure calmly, caring about the game and posting thoughts in the thread constantly and driving discussion" is not the same as just being "inactive".
Argh. I already said you don't need to point fingers or make cases. Post your thoughts! Also, you are not Incognito or those guys that lurk all D1/N1 and then spout 10 gigantic cases in 1 post. You take part of discussion and post thoughts, just like in Death Factory, so I don't believe you saying "Oh I don't like posting reads/thoughts in the thread until I have a gigantic awesome case to make". [/QUOTE]
My main point in the sentence above, is that you are simply thinking that I am of the opposite alignment as before, because I do not work exactly in the same way as I did in DF2.
Now, wouldn't mafia games be quite boring if it was that easy, such as people would always be the same when town and when scum?
To the last paragraph, don't think you know me... all you know about me is how I decided to play in 3 games of mafia in TL + some irc chatter, you won't even get to my momentarily thoughts with that.
Although I like where your reasoning is going slowly. I'll post my thoughts when I get back, away for now.
Also, 10:8.... funny isn't it?
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On May 01 2012 12:02 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +Cephiro wrote: "Oh, he was analytical and calm in that game when he was town, he's being more "aggressive" now, so he's scum." Even though both sentences have the same structure, they are not the same. Being "analytical and calm, taking pressure calmly, caring about the game and posting thoughts in the thread constantly and driving discussion" is not the same as just being "inactive". Argh. I already said you don't need to point fingers or make cases. Post your thoughts!Also, you are not Incognito or those guys that lurk all D1/N1 and then spout 10 gigantic cases in 1 post. You take part of discussion and post thoughts, just like in Death Factory, so I don't believe you saying "Oh I don't like posting reads/thoughts in the thread until I have a gigantic awesome case to make".
My main point in the sentence above, is that you are simply thinking that I am of the opposite alignment as before, because I do not work exactly in the same way as I did in DF2.
Now, wouldn't mafia games be quite boring if it was that easy, such as people would always be the same when town and when scum?
To the last paragraph, don't think you know me... all you know about me is how I decided to play in 3 games of mafia in TL + some irc chatter, you won't even get to my momentarily thoughts with that.
Although I like where your reasoning is going slowly. I'll post my thoughts when I get back, away for now.
Also, 10:8.... funny isn't it?
EBWOP: Structure fixed. See you soon.
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+ Show Spoiler [My Round B Vote List] +--------------------People I would prefer my votes going to: VisceraEyes Meapak_Ziphh Liquid`Sheth --------------------People I am ok voting for: Radfield --------------------People I can vote for if really necessary: Mr. Wiggles EchelonTee --------------------People I will not be voting for today: prplhz chaoser sandroba + Show Spoiler [If I was able to vote for the minority] + --------------------People I would prefer my votes going to: Bloodyc0bbler wherebugsgo --------------------People I am ok voting for: Foolishness gonzaw --------------------People I can vote for if really necessary: Palmar Ace --------------------People I would not be voting for today: Katina syllogism
On May 01 2012 16:31 syllogism wrote: Don't give Cephiro anything until he posts his suspicions in public and explains why that information couldn't be made public before. It's quite difficult to believe town cephiro genuinely believes that sharing his scum reads in public is detrimental and his excuses are just making him look worse.
You're way too expectable. There's not much of you I haven't been able to know you'd do in advance. If you had spent any time reading, I have explained "why that information couldn't be made public". It's not about not being able to make them public, it's about not wasting everyone's time on pointing fingers without anything to back it up.
You'll have my current opinions soon enough, although my vote lists should be able to tell you something already.
About voting: I am fine with spreading my votes, or concentrating them on one person mostly, depending on how the persons I find trustworthy would like to act.
I'd like to point out the possibility of voting in "circle", in smaller groups or pairs. For example, let's say everyone agreed that Radfield & Meapak should in no circumstances be lynched today, they could be allowed to simply vote each other to reach the 5 votes. I'd personally suggest groups of 3 & pairs.
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On May 01 2012 21:42 syllogism wrote: No, all you have provided so far is a completely nonsensical explanation and if everyone followed your logic, the game would be impossible to analyze. No one cares if you don't have sufficient evidence yet, just knowing your suspicions and having some sort of basic justification for them is sufficient. Talking to you appears to be a waste of time, however.
Well you seem to be in a hurry. Running out of time for something? If talking to me is a waste of time, then you might as well not. So you think that no-one cares if I go pointing fingers at every smallest suspicion I have? I think I would have covered like 80%+ of the players in that case. Very useful no?
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More stuff later, but on a quick glance I just have to say a few things:
VE - Stop acting like you are dead already. If you think the scum can get rid of you that easily, then I'd almost say we're better off without you. All it requires is for one or two townies to show the middle finger to scum and mass vote you. Tada, you didn't die. 90 votes = 10 votes and you are safe with 100% certainty. I am fairly sure that in reality 7-8 should be enough as well.
To everyone using "meta": What on earth is wrong with you people? Are you seriously saying that the TL players are so poor that you can just metagame them? How about playing based on what people do this game instead of comparing it to other games. I am starting to get fed up seeing the words "based on meta" come up in every few posts.
I hope someone hosts a game where I can be a "meta vig", and kill anyone doing decisions based on meta. Do you all think you can outsmart players just with meta? I thought the experienced players here knew better than that.
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On May 02 2012 02:01 Palmar wrote: why do you think there are ways of re-entering the game?
also, thanks for making my job of killing you easier by being obvscum
By the way, "King". I recommend that you're a bit more careful with your current allies, it seems you are leaking information somewhat easily..
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On May 02 2012 02:12 Palmar wrote: Tell me what information I'm leaking.
I only have one person that actually knows everything I'm thinking/doing, and I have very little information about the game or anything that's happening beyond what I've posted in the thread.
If you're unable to back up the statement that information is leaking from me, you are lying.
Now tell me, what leaked, and who gave you that information.
You shouldn't trust people too much, this is the Liar Game after all...
I'm perfectly fun with you thinking I am lying. After all, making you obvious to certain things would ruin the fun would it not?
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On May 02 2012 02:12 Palmar wrote: Tell me what information I'm leaking.
I only have one person that actually knows everything I'm thinking/doing, and I have very little information about the game or anything that's happening beyond what I've posted in the thread.
If you're unable to back up the statement that information is leaking from me, you are lying.
Now tell me, what leaked, and who gave you that information.
You shouldn't trust people too much, this is the Liar Game after all...
I'm perfectly fine with you thinking I am lying. After all, making you obvious to certain things would ruin the fun would it not?
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EBWOP: Loving my netstick. <3 Mistakenly doubleposted when trying to fix the typo as I wasn't sure if it had sent already.
@ Wiggles: Amusing message by someone that is bickering to others about scumhunting in thread. I see you like gonzaw's mentality, just in a worse manner. Take contact with everyone, but don't even really pressure anyone, unless you can sheep. You talk a lot, but you make very few main points to go with what you say.
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On May 02 2012 03:01 Palmar wrote: That's not how it works.
You make an inane statement that undermines the work I'm doing, so I demand you say what the fuck you mean by that. I don't trust people too much, if I do, I need to know.
It makes no sense from town perspective to not out whatever information you may have about my strategy and my allies, you're intentionally creating confusion with nothing to back it up.
So no, I want whatever you're implying you know to be obvious, you're not getting away with trolling like that without explaining yourself.
I'm fine with killing you today, and I have the influence to get it done.
I have in no way undermined the work you claim you are doing. I just said you might want to be a bit more careful, that's all.
Are you sure you have the influence to get it done? If you want to dig your own grave, go ahead and try. I dare you.
You can be stubborn and think what you want, all I'm saying you should be careful whom you co-operate with. Preferably a bit more than so far.
Also, just to dare you a bit more: Who knows? Maybe I am just testing to see how you react, maybe I am talking all bullshit, or maybe I hold some information that you might not want me to know.
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I have caught up on the thread, and I am going to answer to people that have PMed me in my absence, as well as first defend accusations that I've got yet again, and then move on to talk about the voting.
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On May 02 2012 05:55 Palmar wrote: How is it in any way beneficial to fuck with me if you're town. Seriously, fuck you, you're being dumb.
Let me put this another way: How is it any way beneficial to work together with you if you're scum. Seriously, fuck you, go look in the mirror. (<3 the mirror image posted by Meapak)
On May 02 2012 05:57 Palmar wrote: this game is stupid, arrogant and dumb townies or mafia are fucking with me and it's boring.
I'll spread my votes on anyone that isn't cephiro, chaoser, VE and sandroba I think. mostly gonna make sure rad and prplhz stay alive, probably wiggles too, he seems towny enough.
So, you start the game by claiming yourself King and moving on to asking everyone to claim to you. Sure, we're arrogant and dumb for not blindly believing in you. I'm sorry my lord, but if you want respect, earn it. If you claim to have the power to get me killed today, and all the other stuff you talked about, why would you care about a few dumb townies? Use your power oh mighty king.
On May 02 2012 06:13 gonzaw wrote:To Cephiro:Dude, I don't get wtf you are doing. Like really. People ask you reads and you start bickering about how you don't need to post them and you are "waiting for the right time" or some shit. Then, you accuse Palmar's "allies" (I guess you mean syllo) that they leak info, and when asked to justify yourself, you go on to spout some mystical bullshit about how "telling you the obvious wouldn't be fun" and shit. Really, you seem to act like Chezinu and those other guys that troll the hell out of games. But why the fuck would you troll this game if you were town? You can't say "Oh you can't use meta because good players change their meta". ...if you are town and play good you don't need to change your meta. In fact, being town you NEED to stay to your meta so people (even those "retards that use meta" (hyperbole here) that you talk about) have it easier to figure out you are town. I can't see any reason why you would willingly change your meta, or act different than it if you are town, specially since you played very good in that game as town; and now you are playing like shit, creating chaos with your bickering, not giving any reads or reasoning behind them, and just running around trolling people. I don't find any town motivation for you to act this way, so I still think you are scum. I'd like people to avoid voting you. Also, wtf is with this? + Show Spoiler +To everyone using "meta": What on earth is wrong with you people? Are you seriously saying that the TL players are so poor that you can just metagame them? How about playing based on what people do this game instead of comparing it to other games. I am starting to get fed up seeing the words "based on meta" come up in every few posts. Okay, if you don't like using meta yourself, then fine, don't use meta yourself. But are you really undermining every use of meta? Are you really saying that every player here is a "Mafia God" who can change metas as they will when they are scum and fool everybody 100% of the time or something? Players here can make mistakes or play badly every once in a while. When they do that as scum we do find them using meta. Why are you against this? Are you just going to assume everybody in this game is Akiyama or Yokoya and that you need elaborate plans and shit to catch them? Do you really think that or are you bluffing now to avoid doing anything constructive? If someone thinks Cephiro is town, please state why you think so.
If you really think the correct way for town in every situation is to play "calm and analytical", you're playing the wrong game. The "Basic Handbook Townie", is nowhere neal optimal play in several cases, and there are various valid reasons why one shouldn't. Again I repeat, if you think that or cannot come up for the reasons why, you're playing the wrong game.
So tell me this, is it easier to change up your meta to deceive others, or is it easier to read the meta of another player with full certainty?
On May 02 2012 07:18 EchelonTee wrote:RE: The gonzaw/Cephiro back and forthShow nested quote +On May 01 2012 08:10 gonzaw wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Cephiro:Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034&user=183812http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=5#84http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=5#87I found this odd, because you started very aggresively. There were some good plans (mine) floating around, and you behemently opposed them. The point is that you didn't come up with any of your own or try to generate any other discussion. You inserted doubt into plans and just bickered about them, you didn't come up with content of your own. Well, maybe honestly you thought those plans were bad, so that in itself wouldn't bother me. However, you post this: I'm not expecting to see gamebreaking strategies (especially ensuring as making them work flawlessly is quite hard), so please concentrate on finding the scum instead of trying to come up with some epic plan. And don't get greedy. If we find someone that we are sure to be scum, then do everything possible to get that person killed or lynched. If we try to get greedy and be smartasses and try to lynch three scum at once, it'll most likely bite ourselves in the ass. You are giving the usual "People stop discussing policy lynches/plans/shit and start finding scum!", yet I don't see you following your own advice. When someone asked you for your reads, you said "At the moment I am afraid to tell you I have no reason to share my reads with you.". What? You said we should try and find scum, but you don't want to contribute your reads? You started very aggressive and "keen" to find scum, but you were inactive for some time later and when you came back you didn't put any effort into doing so. I know how you can play as town Cephiro, I observed Death Factory and you were contributing and making plans like crazy. Being this aggresive and indifferent to plans is unlike you. The two bolded parts are the significant parts of gonzaw case, and ones that I find to be pretty true; Cephiro was initially active but since has done no scumhunting. This is especially ironic considering his response:
So simply because I was on when the game started and opposed a few plans I was initially active and did scumhunting? No. I have since done no scumhunting? False. Just because I don't scumhunt in the way I did in one game, or in a way you expect me to, does not mean I am not doing it.
Unless something drastical happens, my votes today will be split between VE & MZ.
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On May 02 2012 08:55 gonzaw wrote: Wtf? You are still confusing the hell out of me. What do you mean by "playing the wrong game"?
And what the hell is up with the bolded question? Why the hell would you even try to change up your meta to deceive others if you are town?
I simply mean that you should not be playing Mafia if you do not understand the points I have addressed.
There is no such thing as "confirmed town meta", as the same player could simply act towards his "confirmed town meta", if he were scum. As I said, not in every situation is playing a calm and analytical town optimal play.
But let's continue this in PMs, unless you still wish to continue your useless bitchslaps at me in the thread?
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On May 02 2012 09:10 wherebugsgo wrote: wtf why are you wasting votes on VE?
Because I don't think he should die yet.
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On May 02 2012 09:16 wherebugsgo wrote: and yet you've offered no alternative?
I like how your reasoning is "because he shouldn't die yet" and not "because I think VE is town."
you have no balls, scum.
Votes are used to keep someone alive no? Not voting is essentially lynching.
He is certainly not the towniest person out there, but he should by no means be the first person to get killed. There are players that are much more concerning to me.
PS: I just checked and I was right, I do still have a pair of balls.
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On May 02 2012 09:22 wherebugsgo wrote: again, LIKE WHOM?
You keep saying he shouldn't be the first to die and there are others who need to die. The day ends in less than 3 hours and you haven't enlightened us about who those people are.
If he's not the towniest person out there and your previous rationale for voting was to vote people who you thought were town, why the hell is your vote on him?
prplhz & sandroba
Do you think I am magically going to convince the town to not vote for them after all the back & forth crap with gonzaw?
Please point out where I have said the bolded. I am not using my votes to simply stack them up on my strongest townreads, as I feel it is more important for me to save VE from getting killed currently.
If I feel there are more likely persons scum than VE, and VE is about to die, why should I let him die? Also, I am also voting for my strong townreads, (MZ), as I want try to ensure that no tricky disco maneuvers get him killed.
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On May 02 2012 09:54 wherebugsgo wrote: Nice defeatist attitude. Great for town, yeah?
Certainly not defeatist, why do you think I'm defying retards like you and Palmar here? Way to go trying to make me look like VE & prplhz.
On May 02 2012 09:54 wherebugsgo wrote: So why are you deciding to be the only person to vote for VE?
Again, you don't give a reason for defending VE. You just claim he shouldn't die yet. That's not good enough, and quite frankly it's scummy as fuck because it ruins a lot of the work many of us have done.
As town I don't believe you would be this uncooperative.
False. I say there are people that are scummier than him, and I'd rather try to lynch scum than a scummy/bad townie. I have given several persons my opinions more in-detail, but as you said yourself, you are totally ignoring me. Why should I try to convince you either in thread or by PM? I see no reason to, you're just being bad.
On May 02 2012 09:54 wherebugsgo wrote: So, Cephiro here says he'll give his reads when he has enough content to back them up.
Has he backed up his reads of sandro and prplhz? Nope.
He then says making one proper case is more useful than making 3 jabs at different people without anything to back it up...
You & (especially gonzaw), constantly spammed me about it and wanted to know them even if I did not have evidence to back it up. And now that I do say them anyways, you proceed to call me out for it. BRILLIANT. MVP RIGHT HERE PEOPLE. You should all trust wbg and you've already got this game in the bag.
I won't mind if you'll start tunnelling on me like Gonzaw, that just proves how desperate you are to get rid of me. Scared? You should be.
Also, I said one proper case is more useful than making jabs at different people, BEFORE I told you who I feel are scummier than VE. Not after. Big difference there.
On May 02 2012 09:54 wherebugsgo wrote:well, Cephiro still has no case of his own, (with about 2:10 left in the day or so) and, the best part? He's been jabbing at people just as much as anyone he's arguing with. Evidence here: Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 10:51 Cephiro wrote: I sincerely hope you two are not townies. -_- (at gonzaw + wiggles)
Explain me how that is a jab at them? You're just either too stupid and caught up in your confirmation bias, or intentionally trying to make you look bad. How about you ask Palmar to join in as will, you'll need more than 2 people with retarded reasons to get me killed, even with King Palmar's "influence".
So you say I have no proper case of my own, very well. Would you like to take a look at everyone else that doesn't? I have a feeling almost no-one here has made proper cases so far.
Guess what, WBG HAS NOT MADE A SINGLE PROPER CASE ON SOMEONE HIMSELF, ONLY JABBERING AT VE & ME.
I'll end this with a very quote of his own:
Yet, the closest thing Cephiro has done to scumhunting is just calling people scum. Not to mention, he hasn't had a singular focus. The double standard is quite telling.
And what have you? I'd love to see your singular focus and your scumhunting.
Your ignorance tells a lot.
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On May 02 2012 10:50 gonzaw wrote: @Cephiro: Okay, so you are tunneling wbg now and being greatly aggressive against him too just for calling you out (effectively another OMGUS) Noted.
What is this, I didn't even realize I was already tunneling! Damn you genius. I am so aggressive this game.
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On May 02 2012 11:33 wherebugsgo wrote: still need vote claims from Radfield, prplhz, meapak, foolishness, katina.
I've talked with the last 3 recently in PMs so I assume those will come forth shortly. We don't have much time left in the day as it is.
I like how you put my claimed votes as a red 5, when I haven't claimed to vote anything as of yet. I also see syllo with 5 claimed votes but none of his targets.... interesting. I also find it hilarious how you are not even trying to ask me for a vote claim.
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On May 02 2012 11:52 wherebugsgo wrote: see the thing is that if Cephiro is scum, let's say, and we put votes on VE to bring him to par with sandro, Cephiro can save both players by going 3/2 on sandro/ve or something like that.
The names are arbitrary but Radfield hasn't claimed his votes yet either from what I can tell.
I am certainly not going to vote for sandro. So.. who are you voting for? Or don't feel like sharing?
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On May 02 2012 11:55 wherebugsgo wrote: tell me who you're voting.
I'm talking it out with foolishness right now, my votes are going down in the next 1-2 minutes.
I guess we have a situation where we both want to know each others votes first, don't we?
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On May 02 2012 11:59 gonzaw wrote: I think we should also come up with a "safe" formula.
Like, if there are N people in the majority, it takes X votes for a player to be completely safe from the lynch (again just like in the manga they needed 51 to be safe).
That way we don't go overboard with votes (for instance why does Meapak have 9 votes on him in the spreadsheet?)
(Total Amount Of Votes / Amount of people in Majority) + 1 = 100% Safe limit.
Which at the moment is (90/10)+1 = 10 votes.
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On May 02 2012 03:01 Palmar wrote: I'm fine with killing you today, and I have the influence to get it done.
On a more serious note, I can't believe no-one else voted for VE at all. I guess I should have given him all my 5 votes instead, but I didn't expect me to be the only one voting for him...
Although I do agree that he basically dug his own grave by voting for sandroba x5.
Real life and sleep calls, see you all later.
Gonzaw's basic posts following the deadline ftw. <3
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On May 02 2012 19:30 Palmar wrote: Also cephiro, you still haven't explained in detail what you meant by my allies leaking information, were you seriously just trolling to fuck with me?
Do you seriously think I'd troll around just fuck with you? Pssh. I expected more of you. I gave you a heads-up warning, that should be more than enough for you to realize and start being more careful.
On May 03 2012 03:36 Foolishness wrote: Is there anyone that actually does not want BC to die?
Me.
On May 03 2012 04:17 Ace wrote: *yawn*
People are still alive in this game? What's taking so long to kill everyone?
You know, it's hard to shoot someone during the daytime if it's not allowed. ;/
On May 03 2012 07:28 gonzaw wrote: I'd like Foolishness to post more reads, or at least post more cases/etc to back them up. However, I'd like the same from you too BC.
To be honest, analyzing the minority list is not just like taking a random list of 8 players, because it's very probable each scum team split the vote 2-1, meaning there is at least 1 or 2 scum in said list (something you can't say of a random list of 8 players). Of course some scum team may have voted 3-0, but I think it's unlikely both did and ended up in the majority.
"I'd like to talk with every person in the game." + Wishywashywishywashy, wax on, wax off, wax on, wax off. Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe yes, maybe no. I mean, it could be or it could not be, who knows?
More seriously, once we move on to D2, we should stop the bitchslapping each other with our gigantic penises, and nominating kings. K?
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On May 03 2012 09:40 EchelonTee wrote:I'm back. Like no one PM'd me
Sorri, maybe later?
On May 03 2012 04:17 Ace wrote: *yawn*
People are still alive in this game? What's taking so long to kill everyone?
On May 03 2012 09:40 EchelonTee wrote: All that this guy has done is troll all game, sneak into the minority list, and troll some more. Does anyone actually think Ace is helping town? Yeah, he voted for me. (Which does not make him town though, but it makes him a town-helper.)
On May 03 2012 04:24 syllogism wrote: Sheth finally provided an acceptable answer to my inquiries so he looks slightly better for now
On May 03 2012 09:40 EchelonTee wrote: Are you saying he answered the gonzaw "meta" accusation, the Cephiro votes, and the VE reasoning, all satisfactorily? Why should he need to explain votes on me anymore than anyone random on anyone else? It's not like I'm scummy or anything.
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On May 03 2012 09:53 EchelonTee wrote: Honestly, everyone should've explained their votes at least tertiarily. Imagine a standard Mafia game; does everyone just vote people saying "I think that guy is scum. kthxbai"? NO they explain why they are voting as such, or are scrutinized for not explaining. Though listing out town reads rampantly is obviously not a good idea, not posting reasoning for voting this or that person removes accountability from the voting process.
For Sheth, it was those 3 things together that made me suspicious of him, and if Syllogism considers those three topics to be answered, then maybe I should devote my attention elsewhere. That's why I am asking for that explanation in particular.
Well, there are several others that have not necessarily explained their votes to any extent. If you are suspicious that Sheth is scum, especially due to a combination of several things, you should not take anyone elses word for him being cleared, but try to figure it out and ask by yourself. Or is there a specific reason that if syllogism is fine with it, that you should be too?
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On May 03 2012 10:04 Ace wrote:lol @ sneak onto the minority list. Tell me how I did it! I cleverly wifomed 10 people into picking "Yes" and then picked "No"! Oh heavens what a genius move! bravo Ace! bravo!
You see, everyone that was on the minority list not approved by the King clearly did it in a sneaky way, and thus must be put under suspicion. I applaud you for taking that brave step, warrior.
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On May 03 2012 10:32 prplhz wrote:make of it what you will
How do you fail to see that Ace is obvtown, and he simply praised Palmar for finally realizing the optimal play? No sarcasm needed.
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On May 03 2012 10:47 wherebugsgo wrote: Ace, mind explaining why you called wiggles scum but not Cephiro?
Because any townie with half a brain or a scum with a full brain understands that I am town.
On May 03 2012 10:59 gonzaw wrote: I don't get wtf is going on here.
Could it be there are 2 Town Idiots in this setup?
No, there are actually 3. Trust me on this one.
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Nooo... T_T Why do all my dear friends die.
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On May 03 2012 13:04 gonzaw wrote: It's very easy to see who's gonna go with it or not.
Those that post "##Vote: X" will go with it, those that don't won't. If most or all people go along with it then we can make it work.
Remember we can lynch many people at the same time. I want to lynch Cephiro and for that I want him in the majority.
And why isn't he the best lynch? He's trolling everybody and doing shit, and yet like I said that's not how he plays as town. If he's town why would he act like that?
Why do you think I'm trolling? If you're town (which would be quite sad to be honest), pull your head out of your ass, stop tunnelling me, and take a better look at people like wbg for example.
/inbefore my votes on VE were clearly scumvotes since I knew he wouldn't get any and I gave him only 4 votes which made him die on purpose.
Now if there are any other serious players but certain ones I've been already been PMing with, feel free to contact me.
Syllo and/or Palmar, you really might want to think of co-operating in a way that doesn't put you on a pedestal.
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On May 03 2012 12:54 gonzaw wrote: If you don't think Cephiro is scum, then please expand on it. I've been asking people for opinions on Cephiro since Round A of Day 1 and nobody gave a shit.
It works the other way around. If you think I am scum, YOU have to expand on it. (Do everyone a favour and don't spam the thread more please.)
On May 03 2012 12:54 gonzaw wrote: I've been asking people for opinions on Cephiro since Round A of Day 1 and nobody gave a shit.
^ Think a moment about that sentence, and you may even realize something.
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EBWOP: Was supposed to be a PM, sorry for cluttering up. ^^
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On May 03 2012 13:21 gonzaw wrote: He put a lot of effort in making the Round B plan, organizing votes, contacting people, etc. I don't see him doing that as scum.
Do you not realize how useful for knowing the votecount is for scum? Just because he is making a spreadsheet and sharing it does not make him any more town than anyone else.
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I'd say there's easily at least 3 mafia in that list. Do you really think that there were 4 mafia in the majority yesterday? Please.... I can understand your town reads on syllo and Katina but I have no idea how you find BC scum when you see gonzaw and wbg as town. -_-
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On May 03 2012 21:05 Palmar wrote: Die scum, die.
You're an idiot. Luckily syllo isn't as stupid.
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On May 04 2012 02:13 Palmar wrote: oh my bad, I was just browsing your filter.
Meh, I was hoping for something on sandroba, I didn't notice that your filter on motbob was 2 pages.
prplhz is confirmed town anyway.
Yeah, we should totally trust your reads. So far, I'd say mine have been much more accurate.
On April 30 2012 22:42 Palmar wrote: dude, if there's one thing I do well it's finding townies.
^ I find this hilarious as you think I'm scum.
On May 01 2012 05:44 Palmar wrote: VE is scum, for future reference.
Turns out he wasn't.
You dropped this quite quickly, reason?
On May 01 2012 17:56 Palmar wrote: Prplhz Cephiro Sandroba Viscera Eyes Mr Wiggles Meapak_Ziphh Radfield Echelon Tee Liquid`Sheth Chaoser
I'll be giving my votes to prplhz and Radfield. I haven't decided where the other three go, most likely to Echelon, Wiggles and Sheth atm.
That'd leave meapak, chaoser, sandroba and cephiro, all of which I'm perfectly fine with dying. I'm reading the thread since I went to sleep last night.
Then about 3 hours later:
On May 01 2012 21:10 Palmar wrote: I want to kill VE
I like the fact that you announce publically that you want to kill townies.
On May 02 2012 03:01 Palmar wrote: I'm fine with killing you today, and I have the influence to get it done.
Re for the lulz, no you don't.
Also, good job on scumhunting Palmar, looks more like townhunting to me so far.
Random fact of the day: I PMed chaoser why he gave 4 votes for me, and I have got no response yet. Very fishy imo. Something reeks scum. <-- This happened ~18 hours ago.
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On May 04 2012 02:28 Palmar wrote: I don't care what you think. You're scum!
Everyone please, have a moment of silence and look at our great King's awesome scumhunting. With him in lead, we have nothing to fear, we shall be saved in no time. Just like the scummy VisceraEyes that died yesterday.
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On May 04 2012 02:29 Palmar wrote: what's your point cephiro?
lol
You like blaming townies for scum and try to get them killed. Luckily you play bad enough to not have the influence for that, otherwise we could gg already. You suck at finding townies.
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On May 04 2012 02:30 Palmar wrote: Are you accusing me of being scum, or are you just randomly trying to undermine me because why not?
At the moment I am leaning more on the side that you are scum, since I can't believe you would play that badly as town. I'm starting to think I've overestimated your abilities though.
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@ Gonzaw, stop being so fucking obsessed with me. I know I am sexy and all that but you're getting worse than my stalkers. You do realize that it's not always OMGUS if you suspect someone being scum for attacking you, if you back it up with good reasons. If everyone thought in that well-crafted mindset of yours, TL games would be this:
Game Starts Scum blames everyone Anyone blaming them back is blatant omgus and gets lynched Scum wins gg.
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Flipped a coin and sent in my vote.
Syllo & chaoser please reply to my PMs.
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On May 04 2012 10:33 gonzaw wrote: We were mafia together just once in my first game. And believe me, I get frustrated easily as town. Without taking that into account, why else do you think I'm scum?
Because if anyone, you should know that after playing together that one game, we share an eternal bond. Because you clearly know I'm scum due to my meta, I know Sheth is town due to his meta, Sheth knows you are scum due to your meta and I know you are scum due to your meta.
Amidointhisrite?
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On May 04 2012 10:59 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Also so any questions for me? Geuss I have some time now. Going to go look through everything at the moment. Sorry I haven't been as involved. I feel kind of defeatist as if I'm already dying in this game. I don't know why. Anyway please someone ask questions.
Or anyone around have anything cool to say? Chaoser how is your catching up going?
You are not dying dear Red Hat Rat friend. <3 I'll make sure of that! Do not feel defeated, we shall rise and win.
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On May 04 2012 13:41 gonzaw wrote: Let's hope he's joking.
Nobody else give any more votes to Cephiro for now
If you are town and have a town read on him, then make a post saying why, posting your reasoning, and then we can figure out if you can give him votes or not; don't go all anti-town on our asses and play for yourself thinking "my reads are always right" or some shit and do the same thing VE did to us last day.
You guys are retards. You're in no position to tell others that, don't you get it? Also, I am town, and that's not going to change. Just because you're all up in your retarded metareads won't change that.
On May 04 2012 14:11 wherebugsgo wrote: man sheth that move makes 0 sense from a town perspective.
You call the guy 50/50 town and then put all your votes on him when you know it takes 9 votes to save someone. Cephiro is definitely not the towniest person in the game and I would rank him right now in the top 3 in terms of disruptive and antitown players. Obviously being loud and obnoxious isn't necessarily a scumtell (as VE's flip proved) but I'm far more convinced Cephiro is scum than town at this point.
Why would you ever in that situation give your five votes to someone you don't even have a town read on? Why not give those votes to Foolishness, or me, or honestly anyone else in the majority pool? You can't seriously argue that everyone else in that majority pool is worse than 50/50 for you.
Sheth knows I am town. So if I'm top 3 of disruptive and antitown players, please tell me what good Palmar has done for town? Jack shit he hasn't.
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Few random facts:
1) You're not getting me lynched today. 2) You're not getting BC lynched today. 3) You need to get your head checked if you think I'm scum.
I'll laugh at you all for thinking I'm scum if they ever manage to kill me, I think I'll be taking some down before that happens.
If you think I'm not town for not being "100% Calm & Analytical" in the thread, then take a serious look at Palmar for example. Has he done that? Hell no. Do you for some reason consider him obvtown? Yes. You're... just dumb.
More fun facts: Palmar wanted to get Ace & VisceraEyes killed, now look, two townies dead. Start thinking with your brain and don't buy everything they say. I bet no-one even cares that I was the only one trying to save our townie... you're just hopeless, you have no idea what's going on. -_-
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On May 04 2012 17:20 EchelonTee wrote: FFS I DON'T CARE IF YOU'RE 100% CALM OR ANALYTICAL. I realize there are multiple types of play!! why do you keep on essentializing the case against you w/o addressing the core parts??
god when have I ever said you need to be like that Cephiro? honestly you haven't done jack shit!!!!!!!!!!!
I've done much more than you think, that's exactly what this certain block of people wants the majority to think, and for the most part they've unfortunately succeeded. I bet even if I let you all kill me on purpose you would still be too stupid to see who's dragging the ropes and laughing. Why should I even try to make a more proper case here in-thread, when all that happens is that gonzaw jumps out of the bush, starts screaming "BLATANT OMGUZ!", sheeped by wbg because "I'm so scummy"; just like Ace & VE where, followed up by Palmar & syllo being "As we have the power of the game in our hands, we order you braindead townies who can't think for yourselves to try to kill Cephiro".
I just can't believe that there aren't more townies that realize what's going on. And I can't believe that the DT is just herping around doing smartass decisions that help us to no extent.
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On May 04 2012 17:34 wherebugsgo wrote: man it doesn't matter what cephiro is at this point, he's reached the level where even if he's town he's too disruptive to live.
Yeah, I'm the only town that is actually trying to keep townies alive. Clearly I'm very disruptive.
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On May 04 2012 17:41 EchelonTee wrote: it's 4:30 am. i'm sleeping. hopefully when I come back I will be more ineberiated and thus more ready to deal with the shenanigans of this thread.
hey people
DISCUSS THE BC LYNCH. you know, the one that most people agree on? is it an easy bandwagon? A good lynch on scum? we should discuss it!
Nothing to discuss about, it's another bad lynch on a townie, just like the earlier one on VE.
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On May 01 2012 09:41 Cephiro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 09:34 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Hey Cephiro, if you yourself say you aren't doing anything productive, then how are you a useful townie? Also, why are you so quick to call gonzaw out as tunneling you when he's only been talking about you for two pages of the thread? That's hardly tunneling, it's pressure, and you're reacting very badly to it. Why don't you want to be talked about so badly? Do you have some secret reason for needing to avoid scrutiny? ... Really, I'll make sure the next game I join has a reading and english comprehension test before entering. As for trying to answer more seriously, you are right, I am probably not the most useful townie right now. Does that make me scum? No, it doesn't. There are many others that are not being useful in the way you want them to. Are they also all scum as well? I say tunneling because he admit he would be happy to tunnel if so needed, and tunneling is something you shouldn't do in any circumstances. Although, I guess each and every one of us have our own opinions and limits about what is pressuring and what is tunnelling. You can make cases on me every single minute for all I care, I'll respond each of them if that's what is required to get the fact I am a townie into those thick heads of yours. Why I don't want to be accused with bad cases one after another that are further continued with confirmation bias and exaggeration? Because it's a waste of good town (or scum) effort that could be directed to something useful. As for having secret reasons, sure, I'll come out of the closet since you all keep asking for my secret reasons. I am a vigilante, I breadcrumbed it when I was talking to Ace about how guns still work. Satisfied? You don't think I'm being serious about claiming vig? Why not? Standard D1 play no? ************************************************************************************************************************************** [spoiler]If you take the claim seriously, do me a favour and get yourself lynched.[/spoiler] **************************************************************************************************************************************
It is appareantly very hard to read for some people. If I was a vig, do you think I would let everyone know on D1? Or maybe you would be happier if I said I vigged Ace last night, since you wanted to get rid of him, did you not?
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On May 04 2012 18:10 wherebugsgo wrote: alright, now that we've gone there:
why is it that in PMs you did not deny that you were a vig, but when you are asked in-thread you point me back to that post?
Why would an townie ever want to mislead possible scum of a power role target? Yeah... think about it.
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On May 04 2012 05:17 slOosh wrote: VisceraEyes: 4 - (Cephiro 4) <--- Who was sticking up to VE when scum wanted him dead?
Votes from Majority Cephiro: 11 - (chaoser 4, Sheth 4, Radfield 2, Meapak 1) <--- By far the most, now think for a moment how many scum were likely in the minority during D1. MrWiggles: 5 - (EchelonTee 2, gonzaw 1, prplhz 1, sandroba 1) Meapak_Ziphh: 5 - (EchelonTee 2, chaoser 1, Mr. Wiggles 1, Sheth 1) EchelonTee: 5 - (Mr. Wiggles 2, Cephiro 1, Meapak 1, sandroba 1) Chaoser: 5 - (Meapak 2, EchelonTee 1, Mr. Wiggles 1, sandroba 1) Liquid`Sheth: 1 - (Meapak 1) Radfield: 3 - (Mr. Wiggles 1, prplhz 1, sandroba 1) Prplhz: 4 - (Radfield 3, sandroba 1) Sandroba: 5 - (VisceraEyes 5) VisceraEyes: 4 - (Cephiro 4)
Votes from Minority Cephiro: 2 - (Ace 2) <--- Oh, and the only one from majority that voted for me was a TOWNIE. MrWiggles: 9 - (Katina 3, syllogism 2, wherebugsgo 2, gonzaw 1, Palmar 1) Meapak_Ziphh: 6 - (Ace 2, Katina 2, Palmar 1, syllogism 1) EchelonTee: 5 - (gonzaw 2, wherebugsgo 2, Palmar 1) Chaoser: 4 - (Foolishness 3, BloodyC0bbler 1) Liquid`Sheth: 7 - (BloodyC0bbler 4, Foolishness 2, Ace 1) Radfield: 5 - (gonzaw 2, syllogism 2, Palmar 1) Prplhz: 2 - (Palmar 1, wherebugsgo 1) Sandroba: 0 - (n/a) VisceraEyes: 0 - (n/a)
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Oddly enough, townies only know their own alignment for sure unless they have a power such of a DT.
If you manage to somehow get me killed today, then for the love of all that is living, kill wbg as the first thing you do. (The real vig could do the job <3).
If two townies dead accused scum by the same player (wbg), aren't enough to convince you, then I'll start playing mafia somewhere else because you're goddamn horrible.
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On May 04 2012 18:54 Palmar wrote:
I appriciate your piece of art. <3 Love the finnish windowflag. Fact is, if you ever manage to kill me, I'm first going to laugh like hell when I flip town, then cry for how pathetic you've played.
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Do you think I'd play this "badly" if I were scum? Yeah sure. Also, why are you putting words in my mouth? Does somewhere in that post say Palmar is town?
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Overslept by one hour, missed the vote. Sorry! ^^
One down, five more to go.
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Also, considering I am town, it's kind of ironic that scum votes saved me. Talk about having a hard time to kill a townie, shouldn't usually be that hard...
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Or mafia has no kp and it's a townie doing the shots. Just sayin...
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On May 06 2012 14:28 slOosh wrote: Oh. I suppose a 3rd party w/ 1KP playing survivor is possible. Yea that makes more sense than town vig with multiple shots hitting townies / multiple vigs.
Jackpot. We have a winner.
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Is there any request for PM logs? I could post some/all of mine, and most of VE's as well.
I think everyone should note that the 1 KP survivor holds a lot of power in this game, as he survives with any faction, and he appareantly has the only KP, so he's fine with co-operating with any faction as long as they keep him alive, and the only KP in the game gets you quite far....
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On May 07 2012 05:55 Palmar wrote:Including a 1kp survivor and giving the mafia no KP, given that the survivor can easily side with town, controlling the only KP in the game is basically not balanced. The simple solution is that you're scum
Too bad life is not always that simple, and you're once again wrong.
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On May 07 2012 05:40 slOosh wrote: Speaking pure hypotheticals don't do anything for us. Could you post any logs you had with Ace / BC?
As requested:
Original Message From Ace: sounds like a very good theory for life! Show nested quote +Original Message From Cephiro: I see. Well, let's see who lives in a moment. Original Message From Ace: not thinking about him at all. just a fly trying to buzz on my honey jar. Original Message From Cephiro: Whatchu think about gonzaw?
Original Message From Ace: chaoser seems more useful than the other 2. Show nested quote +Original Message From Cephiro: May I ask you your opinion about the syllo&Palmar&chaoser triangle?
BC:
Original Message From BloodyC0bbler: Eh, people do random things all the time. Is it unlikely that if chaoser is mafia that he is on the same team as syllo/palmar is either is red. Yes, but its not a certainty. In a setup like this manipulation and creating a strong stance/distance will be needed to keep members of a team alive. It all comes down to the individual player and given the lineup of this game I expect that anything could happen given the players. on a slightly different note I will be watching everyone who makes "town hunting" or the like comments intently. In this setup town should be more worried about finding mafia. Mafia has more interest in clearing who is and isn't town as they have direct competition with another faction. I feel this is one of the more safe ways to catch reds at this point in time. Show nested quote +Original Message From Cephiro: Okay, thanks for your opinion. -About Gonzaw: Yeah, I shouldn't get so worked up but considering the possibility that he is town makes me just want to bang my head against the wall. Maybe I should try to take it easy and try to look at it from a 3rd person perspective better if he keeps it up. I am having a hard time believing that Palmar and syllo would both be scum, but at the moment I am considering a scenario like this: Syllo scum, managed to team up w/ Palmar, and as he is servant, it is easy for him to back up any suspicious posts by "Order of the King". Effectively being in charge of multiple things but being able to avoid the blame. I am still a bit unsure on chaoser, but I asked your opinion because I've felt that everything doesn't seem to be right. With the early strong stance against Palmar, I am thinking it's a golden opportunity for the opposing mafia to push strongly, as if they succeed, it's one or even multiple townies/scum members of the other team down, and doesn't really give much of a risk, as any plan involved with one ruler is somewhat easy to oppose from a legit viewpoint. I was thinking even that a bus could be possible, but I just can't see chaoser being on the same team with either Palmar or syllo, unless they're town. Original Message From BloodyC0bbler: Palmar and syllo buddying instantly is odd as hell to my senses but syllo is known for auto buddying his friends. I dislike the relationship purely because anyone could fool someone and with the plan they were pushing I get the feeling one of them is off. Chaoser is weird. He has some posts that feel extremely townlike, others that feel extremely mafia like. It is day 1 and a game with two families so this is something to consider when I evaluate people. However nothing these 3 players have done has inspired any sense of confidence in their presumed innocence. As for gonzaw just ignore him. Guy had a reason to suspect you, then just continued to push the same point basically in different ways hoping for a different result. Don't get so worked up about random poor pressuring. If he continues it I would say he has some ulterior motive, but if he stops he is prob just bad at making cases. Original Message From Cephiro: Instant townie points for your latest post. You addressed it much better than I did.
If you got the time, could you give me opinions on the relations between Palmar, syllo and chaoser?
Also, if you can be bothered to read through the shitstorm, does it look to you that gonzaw is actually trying to make a proper case on me or is just trying to make me bad and set me up?
Hoping to get a reply soon, thanks anyways.
I would say there are others that are of more interest though.
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Why should I? No-one has requested them.
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On May 07 2012 12:09 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Pretty sure the pressure to show that we aren't scum is on all of us.
Maybe in a normal game, but with Palmar + syllo + wbg as the "confirmed townies", they decide what to do. :p
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Why you people hatin on everyone that's not kissing the asses of our kings?
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On May 07 2012 13:27 gonzaw wrote: Whatever I'm not gonna argue with you, it's obvious you are just dodging the issue
Indeed, you'll just come back with 10 fluff posts asking the same questions over and over again a few minutes after.
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On May 07 2012 14:38 syllogism wrote: Also if cephiro/sheth is what remains of your team and it looks like sheth is going to get lynched by the end of the day, you shouldn't bother trying to save him as in that case the game is unwinnable for your team and you are at best just delaying the inevitable.
1) Game is not unwinnable for scum until all of them are killed. 2) If BC&Me&Sheth was a full mafia team, do you really think we would be stupid enough to vote for each other in narrow situations? I think everyone in this game should have the brains for not outing their whole scumteam unless it's some sort of endgame gamble which could end up winning them the game. 3) Explain me why it looks like Sheth is going to get lynched?
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On May 02 2012 03:01 Palmar wrote: I'm fine with killing you today, and I have the influence to get it done.
Quoted for the hilarity, that influence of yours is incredible, trying to get me killed during D1, and you aren't even close of being able to do that at D3? :D
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On May 07 2012 14:55 syllogism wrote: Don't use the "do you really think we are stupid enough" defense unless you want me to answer that and present evidence as to why that may be the case.
Please do present evidence as to why that may be the case.
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On May 07 2012 14:59 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 14:56 Cephiro wrote:On May 07 2012 14:55 syllogism wrote: Don't use the "do you really think we are stupid enough" defense unless you want me to answer that and present evidence as to why that may be the case. Please do present evidence as to why that may be the case. slide A: Cephiro's filter
Thank you for this awesome post. What a truly remarkable case you have made. This clearly proves everything that has been going on in the game, and explains every possible outcome too. I'm not even going to try to be serious with you.
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On May 07 2012 15:50 syllogism wrote: I guess it's somewhat less likely for ceph to make that argument if they are team mates, just so he doesn't look silly after the game is over. Sandroba being on their team makes some sense, though I don't quite understand why mafia sheth would suicide like that if he isn't on the same team as ceph/bc.
Brilliant, you can still play town after all. Now try to look more and more objectively little by little, I still have faith in you.
FYI, I'm still not mafia.
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On May 07 2012 16:25 syllogism wrote: Now that you are not in danger of being lynched today, I'm sure you will spend the day scum hunting and making cases.
Possibly. If you personally guarantee that you will take a look at them objectively, I am fairly sure I can share a read or two with detailed backup, maybe even a case.
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On May 07 2012 16:34 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 16:28 Cephiro wrote:On May 07 2012 16:25 syllogism wrote: Now that you are not in danger of being lynched today, I'm sure you will spend the day scum hunting and making cases. Possibly. If you personally guarantee that you will take a look at them objectively, I am fairly sure I can share a read or two with detailed backup, maybe even a case. what the fuck kind of guarantee is that if you're town you'll scumhunt, if you're anything else you'll continue to be a useless prick
I didn't ask for your opinion did I?
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On May 07 2012 16:36 wherebugsgo wrote: who cares?
It's not like your town play has suddenly morphed into you being a complete ass, this is absurd. No townie would make such conditionals on his play unless he purposely was playing against his wincon.
Your wincondition is to find scum and kill them if you're town. If you're making these types of conditional statements as town I honestly see no reason to ever play with you again
So explain me why I should even bother to make a public case to convince anyone if the reaction I get is "Insert random herpderp.gif + /IGNORE LIST SCUM LOL"? There are several ways to play towards ones wincondition, so stop bitching about that. It's not like one way is magically the most optimal in every case. At the moment I do not see a single reason why I should take any advice from you during this game.
@ syllo: Very well, I'll PM you later.
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On May 07 2012 18:23 Palmar wrote: cephiro just shut the fuck up, you're really annoying.
Oh king, make me with your influence. Maybe you'll manage to get me quiet after 3 more days?
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On May 07 2012 17:59 wherebugsgo wrote: "why should I bother making a case"
if you're town the answer to that question should be fucking clear as day
Not to mention you haven't even made a case to begin with, so I have no clue where you're getting this "insert random herpderp.gif" bullshit from
although it is fun to watch you flail. It's probably the only reason I can't resist replying to your pathetic posts
I see you lack basic reading comprehension.
1) You forgot the part after "if" 2) From yours truly, do I need to quote that specific posts? 3) Lol, keep trying...
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 07 2012 21:20 prplhz wrote: Word EchelonTee.
Alright, 5 guys in the majority we want to save so lets vote like this:
Cephiro EchelonTee (1 gonzaw, 1 Katina, 1 Mr. Wiggles, 1 slOosh, 1 syllogism) Palmar (1 gonzaw, 1 Katina, 1 Mr. Wiggles, 1 slOosh, 1 syllogism) prplhz (1 gonzaw, 1 Katina, 1 Mr. Wiggles, 1 slOosh, 1 syllogism) sandroba wherebugsgo (1 gonzaw, 1 Katina, 1 Mr. Wiggles, 1 slOosh, 1 syllogism) chaoser gonzaw (2 Katina, 1 Mr. Wiggles, 1 slOosh, 1 syllogism) Katina (1 gonzaw, 2 Mr. Wiggles, 1 slOosh, 1 syllogism) Liquid`Sheth Meapak_Ziphh Mr. Wiggles (1 gonzaw, 1 Katina, 2 slOosh, 1 syllogism) slOosh (1 gonzaw, 1 Katina, 1 Mr. Wiggles, 2 syllogism) syllogism (2 gonzaw, 1 Katina, 1 Mr. Wiggles, 1 slOosh)
Which gives us these votes in majority:
chaoser 0 gonzaw 9 Katina 9 Liquid`Sheth 0 Meapak_Ziphh 0 Mr. Wiggles 9 slOosh 9 syllogism 9
Unaccounted for: Cephiro, sandroba, chaoser, Liquid`Sheth, Meapak_Ziphh
The 2 person scum team can't save the scum in the minority and the three person scum team will have to seriously out themselves to do that. I mean it's just taking out 3 players and nothing else but I think it looks worth it.
Even if the two scum teams join up, they only have 25 votes and 3 people in the majority so they can't fuck everything up and what they can fuck up comes at a great cost of outing themselves. If some of these reads are wrong then any other townie, minority or majority, should just split his votes evenly over the greens in the majority.
This is really just a plan with the purpose of killing 3 people, there's probably not much else to get from it. So what about it?
Lol for suggesting a plan according to your reads, I'm very sure that you figured the remaining 5 scum out already. And you're cocky enough to go for a 3-kill at once? So naive.... You do realize how easy it would be even for me as a townie to mess that up just to piss you off, or if I felt you were scum?
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On May 08 2012 00:12 syllogism wrote: You don't seriously buy a claim from trolling mafia? How does it make sense at all for him to play survivor like that? Seems to me you are only believing it because it fits your agenda
1) I am still not mafia 2) We all have our own playstyles 3) Please do tell me your opinion of the setup, you think only one mafia faction has kp, or that the other kp has been blocked every night, or that one of the factions have refused to use it? Pssh...
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On May 08 2012 00:40 syllogism wrote: Palmar implied that cephiro claimed that he is a survivor with kp, which he sort of did with his jackpot comment. Anyway, you are still building our strategy around an unlikely scenario. We've our own theories as to why there has been only one KP every night and they seem more likely than there being a survivor who can basically claim on day 1 and then just tell town to direct his KP
So please tell me, how would I be sure I possess the only KP in the game during D1?
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On May 08 2012 04:13 slOosh wrote: @gonzaw My reads (from PM w/ WBG). That scumslip that Syllo caught is also a heavy tell as he bashes Palmer for a good 2~3 pages of his filter and would still consider him town.
Lol what? You think I think Palmar is town? Couldn't be more wrong. His whole filter is a bunch of bullshit worse than mine.
On May 08 2012 04:13 gonzaw wrote: Cephiro is already "outed" as scum, he has no risk whatsoever on giving Sheth/chaoser/Meapak votes, yet he has a tremendous gain since he single-handily decides the lynch.
If I only really was scum... but I'm liking all the power I have as a single townie compared to your awesome co-operation plans!
Original Message From Liquid`Sheth: Don't put any votes on me. It'll just make you look worse. Even though I am town. So if you wanted to put 5 on me it could make you look good as thats what I'll flip. I leave it up to you and I wish you well in this stupid game.
As per Sheth's own request, I will not put any votes on him. Do what you wish with this information. I will try to answer the PMs I've got as soon as possible.
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On May 08 2012 10:28 wherebugsgo wrote:
I love how you call me ignorant and trollish when you and your buddies do even more blantant bullshit yourselves. ^^
But hey, it's not like everyone knows how to play right? I mean, you clearly think you're right in me being scum... just lol.
Just the way you ignored VE. Oh wait, he was town, you were wrong. :x Daamn right.
You wish you had my powers, but you'll never gain em. >
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EBWOP: I have sent in my votes. Feel free to be guessing if I really did or not, or whom I voted for and with how many votes.
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You guys still just don't get it do you. Also gonzaw, LOL. I don't understand why these people still think of you as a townie.
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MZ&Gonzaw, who's the third of your team? ^^
Also ty Sheth, sorry you had to die!
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On May 08 2012 12:26 gonzaw wrote: At least I was right that Cephiro would try to determine the lynch by his own
You're hilarious. Although you are right in one sense which I'm surprised people haven't still realised.
If the majority tries to work together, all it requires is one weak link and the results can be controlled to almost any extent by the minority.
Basically, the more you all agree to vote in unison, the more powerful my votes are in deciding whom is left last. Unless I fall to majority myself, to a certain degree I'm having the final word in what happens.
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On May 08 2012 13:20 wherebugsgo wrote: In other words, you're the reason Sheth died.
Do you even read your own fucking posts?
Yes I do. And I know very well that "the final decision" was in my hands. The fun thing here is, no-one else but me is ready to take responsibility for the actions of town. You wanted Sheth dead, I didn't mess it up, so now you can go all out tunnelling that I was the one that caused his death.
Well guess what, if you had wanted to save him, you could have just voted for him, but no, you all working together wanted him to die. That is a fact.
Now if there are any players left but me that are capable of thinking for themselves instead of being led by these scumbags, I'd recommend you to take a closer look at the players who pushed for VE & Sheth to be killed.
BC was simply a bus by his teammates as it was the general consensus that he would die, trying to save him would have been much more risky. What they tried instead was buddy with a bad looking townie (me), and try to take me down, counting on getting votes from me. And even in the case that failed, I would look bad for trying to save a scum.
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On May 08 2012 13:28 wherebugsgo wrote: I suppose I should've just gambled and told gonzaw to vote sheth (since cephiro wouldn't) but that would've been rash and if I was right about meapak and as cephiro voted chaoser, it would've resulted in meapak dying (same result if meapak is town)
So you clearly have knowledge and control of the vote situation, but you refuse to take any responsibility? I say not a coward town, I say scum.
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On May 08 2012 13:31 wherebugsgo wrote: you still can't read apparently.
So you admit that you wanted to kill more townies again? Not the first time. Let's assume we lynched all three of them and one turned out to be scum. 2 for 1.
Current player ratio: 8:3:2.
You do realize we can't keep doing such trades, as the town will just lose more and more of the little power we have if we do that?
Assuming we managed to lynch all three and got 1 scum: 6:2:2 in optimal scenario. 6:3:1 in the worse one.
If it went to 6:2:2, both scumteams could constantly vote 1:1. Which means: Min/Max 2:4 - Town 1:1 - Scum A 1:1 - Scum B
50 total votes, 50/6 rounded up = 9 votes for safety.
Town has 30 votes available to divide between 4 players, effecively 7,5 votes per player, which is not enough to save anyone for sure. Doing an optimal split we would get 8/8/7/7 as the possible high risk, high reward situation, as no-one is safe but unless the scum votes line up perfectly it should have everyone safe. Worst case, two more town down.
With a safe split of 9/9/9/3, at least 3 town will be safe for sure, but one is basically guaranteed to die.
What I am saying is, we can't afford to lose multiple townies as soon even with optimal voting we are not guaranteed to be able to lynch scum. Then we are very close to having lost the game. Of course, the scum factions have to eliminate each other still, which gives us slightly more room for mistakes, but doing mass-lynches at this time would be suicidal.
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EBWOP: Clarifying that the above calculations are based on if a 3-person lynch was to be done at the current situation (after the latest lynch.)
Most likely town will be down one more player tomorrow.
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On May 08 2012 13:45 wherebugsgo wrote: your entire assumption falls apart when you realize that the basic assumption can be wrong and that even if two of them were town, if all 3 died that opens windows into finding OTHER scum.
The rest of your post is just total horse shit because it assumes that 2 of them were townies, and that only the ratios matter.
True, I did not cover all the possibilities. But the chances of lynching 2 or 3 scum out of 3 persons on a mass lynch is highly unlikely, so I provided the best possible still likely-to-happen scenario.
I do not believe that you can currently correctly decide other players alignments based on someone flipping, as you have been wrong so many times already.
At no point have I said only the ratios matter, but they are crucial information in specific situations.
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On May 08 2012 13:51 wherebugsgo wrote: *entire argument, rather
at any rate I have no idea why I am bothering to argue with you. The fact remains that as long as the people we want to kill remain alive, we cannot progress into finding other scum because we have next to no pressure on them. It all basically comes down to luck who is on the chopping block, and they'll always have immune friends in the minority pool who can save them.
It's basically a race against the clock; either we get a set number of correct lynches in (and to do this we at all times need to know ALL of the players who are most likely to flip scum, as we have no way of controlling who ends up in the majority really) or we don't.
That means every single opportunity that we get matters. VE screwed up the first one by saving sandro and now sandro has been in the minority twice in a row. We got the second one alright. The third one was messed up because of me, albeit there were circumstances for me out of my control (obviously I'm not going to skip a school final just to get a scum lynched in a forum mafia game)
If you were town you would accept that in order to move on from this stalemated situation we would need to kill our prime suspects. If you're town and you continue to be antiprogress you'll just make yourself look like an ass postgame. I'm completely fine with that, and as you are too I'm still pretty sure you're not town. The discrepancy between your behavior here and in DFM2 is just too great for you to be town here, unless your play has degraded so far that you can't actually reason your way out of a paper bag.
It is not a degrade of my play, merely a variance. At the moment the best solution as me for a townie with no credibility has been to take the joker role, possibly being to influence the final result of the day in town favour if the scum takes a risk. The problem I see is, whatever trust-circle you have formed, I am sure is infiltrated by scum, if not initiated by scum. I would not mind working in unison at all, but as your attitude for the whole game pretty much has been fuck Cephiro, why should I even bother? Playing in unison may be optimal play towards wincondition if it reaches perfection, but I am fairly sure perfection is not going to happen, which is why I'm trying something else.
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On May 08 2012 13:53 wherebugsgo wrote: No it's not. You don't even base this argument on anything.
The likelihood of lynching two scum out of three if you choose all three players completely randomly is pretty low, but when all three of those players are almost universally considered to be scum the likelihood gets multiplied many times over.
This is just bullshit. You've been universally wrong twice, right once so far. Looks to me that the likelihood just gets divided by many times over.
On May 08 2012 13:53 wherebugsgo wrote: You're just fear mongering based on known information. That's a scum tactic.
There is almost no way you would say that I have been wrong "many times already" when there have only been two town flips. I have been right 1 time out of 3. That's better than you, as you've been right...well, never.
If you want to base this shit on known information then clearly my track record is infinitely better than yours, since you've defended a flipped scum.
No need to fearmonger. Also, I've been right three times out of 3, how is that? I knew VE was town, I knew BC was scum, I knew Sheth was Town.
BC would have died even if I hadn't overslept, as I was not going to vote for him. Let me explain it to you so you'll understand as well: As BC was universally outed, and his team agreed to bus him, the best play in this situation to try and take as many with him as possible. This is where my "bad town play" comes in. I was telling people how I considered him town, and he backed me up in return to some extent, to try to convince me of his townyness. This made BC fairly sure that I would have voted for him, as is also explained by him only giving 2 votes to me, as he was expecting me to give him easily at least three. That would have been enough to save himself but get me lynched, and as I would have flipped town, he could've argued about how he was right and possibly gained some credibility. The real situation was however that I trapped him all along. I ensured the BC lynch.
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On May 08 2012 14:06 wherebugsgo wrote: AND YOU'VE BEEN WRONG EVERY SINGLE TIME.
I'm done arguing with you. You're scum. You're not interested in the objective truth. You're merely interested in grossly exaggerating, misleading, and disrupting based on false assumptions and logical fallacies.
I'VE BEEN RIGHT EVERY SINGLE TIME UNLIKE YOU, LEARN TO READ.
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On May 08 2012 14:08 syllogism wrote: Another Bill Murray situation, hard to believe it
Considering my playstyle so far has now been explained and outed, you will see me step up my play as proof.
If you are too stubborn to believe me after that, that's town's loss.
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On May 08 2012 14:11 syllogism wrote: I'm not talking about you
Explain "Bill Murray situations" please?
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 08 2012 14:13 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 14:08 Cephiro wrote:On May 08 2012 14:06 wherebugsgo wrote: AND YOU'VE BEEN WRONG EVERY SINGLE TIME.
I'm done arguing with you. You're scum. You're not interested in the objective truth. You're merely interested in grossly exaggerating, misleading, and disrupting based on false assumptions and logical fallacies.
I'VE BEEN RIGHT EVERY SINGLE TIME UNLIKE YOU, LEARN TO READ. Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:34 Cephiro wrote:On May 03 2012 03:36 Foolishness wrote: Is there anyone that actually does not want BC to die? Me. Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:16 Cephiro wrote: I'd say there's easily at least 3 mafia in that list. Do you really think that there were 4 mafia in the majority yesterday? Please.... I can understand your town reads on syllo and Katina but I have no idea how you find BC scum when you see gonzaw and wbg as town. -_- Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:01 Cephiro wrote: Few random facts:
1) You're not getting me lynched today. 2) You're not getting BC lynched today. 3) You need to get your head checked if you think I'm scum.
Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:45 Cephiro wrote:On May 04 2012 17:41 EchelonTee wrote: it's 4:30 am. i'm sleeping. hopefully when I come back I will be more ineberiated and thus more ready to deal with the shenanigans of this thread.
hey people
DISCUSS THE BC LYNCH. you know, the one that most people agree on? is it an easy bandwagon? A good lynch on scum? we should discuss it! Nothing to discuss about, it's another bad lynch on a townie, just like the earlier one on VE. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL ^ Bullshit post by wbg as he totally ignored to read this post by me on purpose:
On May 08 2012 14:03 Cephiro wrote: BC would have died even if I hadn't overslept, as I was not going to vote for him. Let me explain it to you so you'll understand as well: As BC was universally outed, and his team agreed to bus him, the best play in this situation to try and take as many with him as possible. This is where my "bad town play" comes in. I was telling people how I considered him town, and he backed me up in return to some extent, to try to convince me of his townyness. This made BC fairly sure that I would have voted for him, as is also explained by him only giving 2 votes to me, as he was expecting me to give him easily at least three. That would have been enough to save himself but get me lynched, and as I would have flipped town, he could've argued about how he was right and possibly gained some credibility. The real situation was however that I trapped him all along. I ensured the BC lynch.
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On May 08 2012 16:21 EchelonTee wrote: How did you know those players were town or scum? I don't know anyone's alignment but my own.
Why didn't you PM anyone that you were going to do a "bad town play", so that there was some corroboration that you were trying a gambit? Doing a bad town play looks an awful like scum play if you don't explain it.
Why didn't you reveal this explanation directly after the BC flip, as opposed to now? You could've tried to regain some town trust and refocus attentions on scumhunting scum, if you were town.
Replace "knew" with "I was right about them". No need for nitpicking...
Why would I have PMed anyone? There is no-one in this game I trust to that extent. If I had happened to PM a scum of his team, the whole thing would've been ruined.
I chose not to reveal it right away as I was hoping I would be able to take the same principle further, but no-one that I consider scum is even trying to contact me anymore. By telling this now I was hoping that certain players would actually consider other possibilities than just blindly believe in that one opinion that they've established.
The true skill in mafia is not about always having your reads right from the start, but being able to adjust from your wrong opinion into the right one.
On May 08 2012 18:26 Palmar wrote: I hate your play Cephiro, you've been figured out as scum and you're being an asshole about it.
You're just whining because you don't have the power over me you wished you had. Stop crying over your ego and start playing for town, if you are town as you claim. Your filter is even worse than mine, and I doubt you've pulled off a gambit of the same sort. I would gladly be proven wrong however.
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On May 08 2012 20:51 Palmar wrote: It's not about power because the setup is weird like that, we can't actually lynch the people we want to lynch. I'm sure almost everyone in town wants to kill you Ceph.
You signed up to play with the setup, don't complain about it, find a way to use it to your favour.
As a heads up, some analysis/case coming up later today.
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On May 08 2012 21:01 Palmar wrote: Why bother, not like anyone's going to read it except maybe chaoser.
I'm not complaining, I was pointing out a feature in the setup that is different from normal and I hadn't fully adjusted to at the start of the game. I actually think it's kinda interesting, although at times annoying to deal with as town. Maybe you can shed some light on mafia perspective?
If you wouldn't even look at it, then you're just way too confident about yourself. You just think you are right and aren't willing to think of other possibilities, and that is what's going to cost you the game at this rate, whatever alignment you are.
I haven't thought about the setup from a mafia perspective very much, as I am town, so I haven't bothered to waste my time on thinking how scum would play this too much, as it is very wifom. As mentioned, time is precious, use it well.
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On May 08 2012 21:30 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 21:17 Cephiro wrote: As mentioned, time is precious, use it well. Gonna shoot me tonight?
Do you not think I would have done that already?
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On May 08 2012 23:56 wherebugsgo wrote: How do I have total control when one jackass like Cephiro can essentially change the lynch however he sees fit?
LOLOLOLOL. <3
I like how my 5 votes "decide the lynch", compared to all the votes that you coordinate, I bet that's at least 30-ish... quite a good efficiency I have.
I am fairly sure syllo is town, but either you & Palmar are being total douches or something is off. The first is very likely in Palmar's case, but considering you.... well, I'll be getting back to this later today.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 09 2012 00:20 slOosh wrote: The OP link to night 3 is broken (linked to night 2 right now)
So I've been thinking it through and looking over Foolishness' posts / PMs because he is smart town player.
One thing I've noticed is how he thinks that distinguishing the families are important. Since it's my first time playing a game with 2 mafia families, I guess it's taken me some time to understand what this means, but I think I'm onto something / there's good discussion to be had here.
We know that there are 2 mafia families. BloodyC0bbler flipped Yokoya. Let's say for the sake of flavor the other team is Harimoto.
As already discussed, it is likely that Cephiro belongs to the Yokoya family, as well as Sandroba. The round B results support this as we see a 2-1 split between them D1 and D2. On D3 both vote no, but this is when the thread generally agrees that they are both scum. I'm guessing it is a bus gambit as they don't have much to gain from 1-1 split (where no doubt they would be in serious danger of being lynched) or an attempt to separate themselves from each other.
For the Harimoto family I'm putting in chaoser and Meapak. This is primarily through sifting of Meapak's PMs. You can see that he is very active in PM land. He PMs BC & Cephiro, which indicates that he isn't of the Yokoya family. He doesn't PM sandroba, prplhz, chaoser, Palmer and gonzaw. Now it's understandable you wouldn't bother PMing people you think are mafia (Palmer, gonzaw, prplhz or sandroba). Yet there is no PM interaction between him and chaoser. Furthermore, looking into his filter there is no mention of chaoser.
The same can be said of chaoser and his views on Meapak. He barely mentions him in the thread, and only with the last nights flip does Meapak suddenly become obvious town.
^ Sloosh's post about me belonging to the Yokoya family, read this if you haven't already:
On May 08 2012 14:03 Cephiro wrote: BC would have died even if I hadn't overslept, as I was not going to vote for him. Let me explain it to you so you'll understand as well: As BC was universally outed, and his team agreed to bus him, the best play in this situation to try and take as many with him as possible. This is where my "bad town play" comes in. I was telling people how I considered him town, and he backed me up in return to some extent, to try to convince me of his townyness. This made BC fairly sure that I would have voted for him, as is also explained by him only giving 2 votes to me, as he was expecting me to give him easily at least three. That would have been enough to save himself but get me lynched, and as I would have flipped town, he could've argued about how he was right and possibly gained some credibility. The real situation was however that I trapped him all along. I ensured the BC lynch.
On May 09 2012 00:38 Palmar wrote: chaoser is confirmed scum yes. he got saved by cephiroscum.
At the moment I find it much more likely that you're scum rather than chaoser. And I know I'm town.
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On May 09 2012 01:02 wherebugsgo wrote: man I have to say that the post Cephiro made about "I ensured the BC lynch" is probably the most desperately poor attempt at getting town cred I've ever seen any scum make here.
It's so phenomenally bad that I can't believe the guy is still trying to play seriously. I guess it makes sense though, since it's practically 50/50 for him to be completely immune to town killing him.
It's no attempt by scum to do anything, that's the truth, whether you like it or not. You can keep trying to undermine my play but fact is that's what happened.
And in the meanwhile you can go play with those spreadsheets of yours and cry about how I decide the lynch with my 5 votes compared to everything you're trying to organize.
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Reading the filters of the alive players is making my head hurt. T_T I guess I'll be wiser after the 4th Round A.
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Oh poor poor little king. Your influence is really nothing now is it? I've got to say, one won't have to take your threats very seriously at all.
Anyone else like the idea of a mutli-lynch?
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On May 10 2012 12:45 EchelonTee wrote: Can you stop being an asshole Cephiro? It's really making me not want to play this game, and I really don't want to play future games with you after this.
Hmm, I have no need to exchange jabs at anyone, just punching Palmar's ego down a bit, as he hasn't showed any reason why I should stop doing so.
Please do not generalize just for the fact that I am picking on Palmar for his influence claim which as can be seen, never held any truth to it.
It's hard to believe that only my play would not make you want to play this game, but I guess we all have our own feelings about different situations. I think I've made my point clear about this, so unless Palmar comes with another wonderful "painted-in-the-corner"-post, I guess I can leave it be if it makes you smile.
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On May 10 2012 12:59 gonzaw wrote: I can't believe sandro/Ceph escaped the majority once again.
Still, Palmar/Wiggles/chaoser are in it though, so it's not a total failure.
I'm trying to organize the votes as well, so if you are going to vote please claim your votes to me. I'll share the spreadsheet with few people though, so don't expect to see it here.
Gonzaw has "escaped the majority" just as well, and I don't suggest that anyone trusts them with their vote claims personally at this point, unless you somehow have a confirmed townie to yourself.
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On May 10 2012 13:18 EchelonTee wrote: You haven't done anything rule breaking, and certainly other people have been assholes (calling people retards, saying fuck you, etc), but just your entirely derisive attitude and stuck up attitude towards everyone except dead people is incredibly obnoxious and sickens me to read. Usually I can just ignore internet trolls, but I am forced to read your posts if I want to play this game. I am not suggesting that your play is the wrong way to play, or illegal, but I certainly don't want to play around it in the future.
Derisive towards everyone? That is certainly not the case. You just paint some things as derisive in your mind as you think I am scum, when I'm not. Maybe you can go look back at some posts more objectively later when the game has ended.
I have no need to play with a trolling attitude of any sort, I chose to start with a very limited contact style to purposefully make me look like a bad player at start, and some people went over their heads about it. Who are you to blame me for "trolling" them back a bit?
I generally don't like being provocative do fish reactions from others, and by this point of the game it is already useless, as it doesn't awake the sort of reactions that I can use for information. However, considering the style of play I decided to start with in the early parts of the game, and as the "scum-stamp", carried on by a voiceful minority until most agreed, I thought I may as well continue playing this style and play my final gambits as most of you have just admitted you are going to ignore me, so why should I waste my time convincing you I'm town when I can concentrate on keeping myself alive, and trying to get scum lynched for the power that I possess?
This is the Liar Game. Don't expect even townies to tell you the truth. In this kind of game, especially with this kind of setup, someone is bound to lie. Now how do you separate the liars from the one's speaking the truth? If you ask everyone to claim their alignment, everyone would simply say Town. That wouldn't get us much anywhere would it?
I am not playing this game for the sake of being a jerk and ruining it for others, I hope you understand that.
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On May 10 2012 13:19 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Cephiro I kindly invite you to shut your mouth and wait your turn to die.
Gonzaw it'll be great if you can get an initial plan together, when I get home I'll join in and we can see how many we can get.
And this post just further confirms my earlier thoughts about you two. Feeling confident about the win already? You shouldn't.
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On May 10 2012 13:34 gonzaw wrote: *sigh* please ignore Ceph guys. He's in the minority and we can't do anything about it, so at least let's not let him clog up the thread with this bullshit.
Meapak check your PMs.
Okay, in that case I suppose everyone should ignore you as well, since you are in minority and we can't do anything about that either? I don't clog up the thread any more than you do currently, if you call a sincere answer to EchelonTee bullshit, then that shows that you clearly either 1) Didn't read the post 2) Want to keep making me look worse on purpose
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On May 10 2012 13:37 EchelonTee wrote: Regardless of whether you're town or scum, you've gotten progressively less reasonable, more antagonistic, and on the whole unpleasant to play with. The fact that you can't even realize how much of an ass you are being just shows how arrogant you've gotten. You say people overreact towards you, and that the town "kings" are ruining this game, while you run around saying "I was right about everything! you guys are all terrible at this game! I hold all the voting power!". My only hope is that this is just a persona you are playing for purposes of the "Liar Game".
I would appriciate if you didn't make statements that hold no truth. I know exactly how I've played, but there are persons that are blowing it out of proportions. Some people overreacted towards me, yes I do think that. Town "kings" are ruining this game, where exactly have I said that? Just because I do not agree it's the way town should play does not mean I think they are ruining the game. You sure shouldn't have any reason to put words in my mouth.
I was right about all the lynches so far, should I have left that unsaid then? I wasn't the only one talking about how "right or wrong" they were about certain flips, and I simply proved how I've been right about the lynches so far, unlike to what some may have thought.
About voting power, I've never had more than 5 votes at any point in the game. It is simply the way you look at the situation. If you assume that everyone else works together and then consider that since I am the one that does not co-operate I hold the final power in the lynch, then that is your mistake. I have no more votes than anyone else, it is the way I use them, or more exactly, the way I make it look how I use them that has given some of you the illusion if me having the final say.
As for some persons, they've complained about it on purpose to make me look worse in-game. I'm still a townie that scum wants to get rid of. I am not playing a certain persona or anything, but I have picked a specific playstyle to start with, and it has evolved in a certain direction due to the way the game has been flowing on. I don't see why you would even think a more experienced player would play forum mafia as their "true self", as they probably wouldn't play with a genuine style face-to-face either.
I want people to play based on the current game instead of trying to metagame, which is why I'm shifting my play here on TL a lot on purpose. Especially as this is only my 4th game, I have not shown very much variance so far. I'm simply going to keep playing differently as long as is needed until the players realize that you cannot define my alignment on the style of my play.
I do not think I have been too unreasonable against most persons (well, I'd say the only one I've possibly crossed the line with is Palmar), but as the theme of certain players has been, it's easy to blame the player that looks bad. And this mindset is further feeding your thoughts of me playing like an ass, which makes it look even worse than what it is.
But this is all just my opinion.
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On May 10 2012 13:50 EchelonTee wrote: And are you implying that "town" is different from "we"? dafuq?
I do not understand at all how you came into this conclusion, as if you are refering to the town "kings" phrase, that is simply worded in the same way as your own post.
On May 10 2012 13:54 EchelonTee wrote: Do whatever you want, idgaf. Some life advice; if someone says you are being an asshole, look at yourself first before blaming others. Maybe you're biased to not think you're being an asshole, because of your self-perception.
Like I have said about 3-4 times, based on ONLY THIS CURRENT GAME RIGHT HERE THIS THREAD, you look extremely scummy.
The fact that you "idgaf", and are ready to give me life advice just shows how you are blinded by your current emotions. As proven by you further speculating about me biasing myself to be wonderful.
Also, I do not see why you felt the need to caps that part, as I am well aware that YOU, are basing your scumread on me on this current game only. I am also well aware that most persons consider me scum, I would be surprised if someone genuinely believed I am town and came out with it. As if someone would suspect me to be town, they would be right, but considering the reaction they would get from the mass, I see why no-one would even want to publically claim that at this point.
So why should I try to change my play to "Calm and analytical town", as of this point when I am sure that most of you "couldn't give a fuck?". You'll just keep telling each other to ignore me, so I see no reason to change my current playstyle for the remainder of the game.
I can be wrong about that, but I find it extremely unlikely for most of you to do otherwise.
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On May 10 2012 14:44 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:looooool sandroba Show nested quote +Original Message From prplhz: No thank you. You can vote "No" if you want, I'm telling sandroba to vote "Yes" and he allegedly wanted to listen to me and then you two will be voting opposite if that's your plan. I feel kinda bad for prplhz, I wonder what it's like to spend a game allied with scum.
Without further PMs of the chain, I do not see that as sufficient evidence as painting someone scum. I don't remember how many times I would have been honest to someone via PMs so far, but that's not many.
It could be prplhz making false claims, it could be sandroba not voting as he originally told to, or something else.
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On May 10 2012 14:50 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Ok so I'm gonna make a quick little rule of thumb I'd like everyone to follow. From here on out whenever cephiro makes a post we're going to ignore it completely.
Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
Sincerely,
The king of the thread.
Please do save us from reading your useless posts.
Sincerely, The one with all the power of the game.
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For those who are wondering how sandroba is always in the minority.. there is one person that has a perfect mirror voting with sandroba since people have been wanting to lynch him. Surprisingly sandroba is always in the minority, and Meapak with some towncred is in the majority.
What a coincidence no?
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^ That didn't take long.
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Well sandroba is obviously the remaining yokoya scum. If you have KP, please take a shot at either MZ or Palmar (<--Preferred), and I'll keep you alive if you end up in majority.
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Original post by chaoser: Let's get wiggles or palmar lynched tonight, can I get from votes from you?
Nice try, too bad I didn't even read since I sent in my votes early and wanted to sleep. :p Would've agreed with lynching Palmar though.
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^ Smurfing is too hard -_-
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On May 11 2012 22:28 Palmar wrote: that completely ignores the fact we have another three man team to deal with prplhz.
Although I guess killing off a family might reduce KP or something. I'm still working under the assumption that cephiro is in chaoser's/bc's family.
If I was in the yokoya posse, I would have saved chaoser -_-
Think about it for a moment, is there any reason why I would not have done it as you all consider me as scum already?
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On May 12 2012 03:57 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: I highly encourage you to step up and prove that. I am willing to change my mind if presented with significant evidence that I'm wrong. Want proof of that? I thought Cephiro was town for the first few days.
You're foolishness's protege, amaze me.
This is why there is still hope for you if you are town, young padawan.
Katina, do you also think that I am the last scum in the Yokoya posse?
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On May 12 2012 04:32 Katina wrote: Katina, do you also think that I am the last scum in the Yokoya posse? No. sandroba is.[/QUOTE]
Brilliant. I hope you are town and survive the night. In that case we'll have a nice chance of taking the win home.
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EBWOP: Messed up quotes, 1st line = My post, 2nd line = Katina, 3rd line = Me
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sandro, you should vote with the town so that we can eliminate members of the remaining scumteam.
At the moment I'm looking at:
Yokoya: sandro Scum2: Palmar, MZ, gonzaw/Wiggles
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Lol gonzaw? Like I've shat on you the whole game..
Anyway, if you are going to kill me, I'm going to give 5 votes to sandroba. Because if you keep killing anything else than the other scumteam, you're heading straight for a loss.
And at this point even though it's clear sandroba is the remaining yokoya scum, the town will need his votes if you decide to kill me.
As if I die, the town is down to 5 players, minus possible nightkills = 3-5 players alive for D6 if I am the only one to be lynched.
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If I die: 5 Town - 1 Scum - 3 Scum If sandro dies: 6 Town - 3 Scum If we both die: 5 Town - 3 Scum
Add +1 KP on top of that...
If I die: 4 Town - 1 Scum - 3 Scum (1 rival scum is not enough of a threat for them to kill sandro yet) If sandro dies: 5 Town - 3 Scum If we both die: 4 Town - 3 Scum
It would be retarded to let sandro die at this point just to lessen the kp, as if he shoots town his own chances will just worsen. = He will effectively try to kill a member of the other scumteam (assuming he has the kp I think he has).
What you fail to realize is that the scumteams are not on the same side. This is not a town vs scum game. This is essentially a Team Town vs Team Scum 1 vs Team Scum 2.
At the moment the non-Yokoya scumteam has the momentum, and soon they cannot be opposed. Sandroba should be left alive as he has to play for his wincondition, and if townies keep dropping, he will have to work WITH town to have a chance of winning the game. Capiche?
And considering the fact that I am a VT, none of you listen to me, I think I am playing for my wincondition better if my votes save sandro, a possible KP + votes to work together with.
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On May 13 2012 16:03 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Obviously everyone should be able to see why we're following this plan today. Honestly if I see any opposition to this plan it'll make me seriously question your alignment.
Yeah, obviously we should follow a plan where everything is based on the assumption that I am scum. Now when I'm not, you're screwed (unless you're scum.)
I would not be surprised to the slightest to see you flip red.
Anyone that doesn't understand why sandroba should be kept alive regardless of being the last remaining yokoya scum is either scum for trying to kill him, or then a really stupid townie that is being deceived.
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Oh poor gonzaw, you couldn't be more wrong.
If I have to choose between me and sandro dying, it shall be me. Even though I am town, it is more beneficial for him to stay alive than me.
What you refuse to realize this that the other scumteam is so close to reaching half of the voting power that they don't really care whoever dies as long as it's not them. At the moment they'd preferably want town dead, as town currently possesses the highest risk for them, so they won't mind me dying at all.
If you kill me, there is no possibility of us being 6-2-0 at night. If you kill sandro, I still find that impossible, as I am sure that sandro is the last remainder of yokoya scumteam.
Your theory of us both dying is based on your misguided thoughts of me being scum. This is where you go wrong. I will certainly give sandro all 5 of my votes, unless there are some townies that want to co-operate with me.
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prplhz, you're doing the right thing in thinking for yourself.
If no-one else gets any alarm bells ringing with MZ & Gonzaw trying to rule the whole thread for themselves and kill anyone opposing them.... then I don't know what fairyland you are living in.
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On May 13 2012 22:58 Palmar wrote: MZ is the most likely player in the thread to be town, and while I agree with him I'm perfectly fine with this fairyland.
Of course you are. You're a scum that isn't being pressured at all by the town leaders. Thank god we have Katina at least. May she be our savior.
On another note, I think the picture for this round was hilarious. ^^ Palmar, why did your spirit start messing with me now?
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