EPTA Discourse on the Definition of Normal Games - Page 7
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Also MidnightGladius isn't new? I think he played Mafia here years ago. | ||
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MidnightGladius
China1214 Posts
I'm actually kind of surprised that you had remembered :3 | ||
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Tunkeg
Norway1235 Posts
On April 26 2012 22:35 Ace wrote: As for newbie games the reason they are there is because no one wants to host a game where unproven players (read: bad) ruin the game and/or show little activity. Finding the next Cephiro is a rare thing. Also MidnightGladius isn't new? I think he played Mafia here years ago. While this may be true, but I am sure those hosting the normal games for newbies wouldn't mind hosting normal games for everyone (with newbies in them). The newbiegames serves as a buffer against getting inactive players in games open to everyone, but the real purpose of it is to let new players try the game without veterans completely dominating them. I think the newbiegames works perfectly fine as they are. Town losing horrible should be a good sign, as the players should know they have alot to improve on when comming into a real game. So newbiegames should definatly be run as they are to: 1. Give new players an introduction to forummafia without the intimidation factor. 2. Serve as a buffer against people who thinks they want to play forummafia, but who don't (modkills and bans). 3. Teach the new players a lesson in humility (Alot of us still haven't understand that we aren't the best ting that happend to TLMafia yet. Give us time though, and we will understand this and hopefully start to improve). 4. Give new hosts a chance to host a low expectation game. | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
To Incognito, I know you have ideas to change the queue and I'm ready to do so to, but until we have a better plan/idea of how to do so will this suffice? You have always been a bit down about the level of play around here, how would you get players to learn and focus on analysis? A game where players have to spend time asking questions such as "is this blue claim valid? Is this player lying about night actions? does this setup make sense from a balance perspective?" means that much less time analyzing behavior and writing up strong posts. | ||
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
On April 27 2012 09:00 Foolishness wrote: To Incognito, I know you have ideas to change the queue and I'm ready to do so to, but until we have a better plan/idea of how to do so will this suffice? You have always been a bit down about the level of play around here, how would you get players to learn and focus on analysis? A game where players have to spend time asking questions such as "is this blue claim valid? Is this player lying about night actions? does this setup make sense from a balance perspective?" means that much less time analyzing behavior and writing up strong posts. Its hard for people to improve unless they take the initiative to do so. Institutionally there's not much you can actually do to improve the level of play . To get better you need to make the effort to go through old games, see how good players play and why they do things the way they do, and discuss with them on how to approach things. There is too much in-the-moment thinking and not enough stepping back to see the whole picture. Being around bad players reinforces bad play. Generally what makes a game good is not necessarily the setup, but the players in it. Of course, setup matters, but if you want to increase the level of play you need to attract good players. Playing tons of games doesn't make you good. Thinking about the game from an outside perspective and then applying that knowledge and then reflecting again is a faster way to get better. Of course, you can certainly learn by playing many games, as some people have, but I don't think that's the most efficient way to do things. Its not just as simple as getting rid of the "crutches" of blue roles to force people to learn for themselves. A game of mafia is not real life, and there are different reasons why people play the game. Not everyone will get motivated to improve when they realize they can't rely on blue roles. Throwing a baby bird out of a nest might be a good way of getting them to learn to fly, but the analogy doesn't hold for mafia. A game of mafia is like a sandbox. Reducing the complexity of the sandbox makes it harder to find direction unless there are some real power players in the game. When an inexperienced player is thrown into this sandbox, the most popular question probably is "so now what do we do?" People often simply don't know what the important issues are in a game, and don't know how to get meaningful discussion going. What people need is more direction, not more moments of sitting there waiting for something to happen. Sometimes, someone will bring up a topic. Most of the time for day 1, it will be a useless policy question that really won't lead to any meaningful results. But since they haven't experienced anything else, people start to think that's what you're supposed to talk about. Mafia is one of those games where norms and common conceptions of good play come by following the leader. Make sure you have the right leaders, or nothing will get better. A while ago, we had a small trend to weakening blue roles and severely nerfing information roles. I'm not convinced it has had any meaningful positive impact on gameplay. If people want some more straight up vanilla games, then host them, but I see no reason to adopt a rigid form for normal games. I agree with GMarshal and Ver that the current system works. You just need to give the balance team the final say so we don't have hosts basically ignoring the balance team. Then just let hosts take discussion to the community if it they have an issue. Keeping this list as a guideline is nice, but it shouldn't be a hard rule. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
I think it's dumb to try to define normal and themed. It should be up to each host what he classifies his own game as. I also think we're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, I can't remember ever being annoyed by how a game was defined. Started thinking about this topic after a short argument in the Game List thread. I guess I never gave my opinion, and as one of the most active players here I probably should. I completely agree with syllo's definition of normal vs themed games. I also agree with almost everything GM, Ver and Incog have said. This is just an estimation, I would never even try to put down actual rules on what is normal and what isn't. To me, a normal game roughly looks like this: Cycle: Day or Night start, normal cycles Information: Closed, Semi-Open, Open Lynch: Standard lynching mechanics (majority, plurality or extended majority) Flips: Standard flipping mechanics (no-flip, alignment-only-flip, normal flip) Balance: Balanced. Roles: Roles that don't change the flow of the game excessively Mechanics: No complicated mechanics (items, currency, selecting roles etc) Teams: Town, Scum (maybe two families), 3rd parties (probably not multiple) To me anything that breaks these would probably be themed, I'll take some examples of things that would break each category, making the game themed, although this is more of a guideline to me, than actual rules. Cycle: Nightless games (Resurrection), Strange Cycles and timings (Real Time Mafia). Information: Nothing really breaks this Lynch: Complicated lynching rules (Liar Game, Death Factory, Werewolves, Kingmaker) Flips: Bastard flips Balance: Experimental Games Roles: Very strange roles or roles that severely change the flow of the game (Cultists who recruit every night and change people's win condition, Texas Cops that can affect the cycle etc) Mechanics: This is the broadest category, think weird game mechanics (Swedish House Mafia), alternate win conditions (World at War 2), items (merc mini), Role picking (PTP/PYP), Player identities (Team Melee. Experiment, Territorial (Sengoku) Teams: Anything that has alignment changing stuff (merc mini - lovers) or very complicated family setups. To me if you want to use a CPR doc (doctor who kills his target if he doesn't save it, essentially a vigilante), an Operator (a Mason-esque role that connects two people other than himself for the cycle), a Janitor (Mafia role that hides the flip of someone), or a Busy Paramedic (a medic that cannot protect the same target twice in a row), then you should go for it. It's not a problem at all in a normal game. Would anyone really consider something like this themed? Macho Roleblocker Veteran Busy Paramedic Vanilla Town Vanilla Town Vanilla Town Vanilla Town Vanilla Town Vanilla Town Vanilla Town Mafia Role Cop Mafia Vigilante Mafia Goon Mafia KP = 1 If only Vigilante remains, KP = 0 The obvious point in this setup being that mafia has an extra KP in their vigilante compared to normal 12-ish player setups, but in turn Town has 4 ways of dealing with this extra KP (Medic, Veteran, Roleblock the vigilante and the fact it's a 13 player setup). To stop the town from repeatedly fucking with mafia, the Roleblocker is macho (cannot be protected), and the mafia has a role cop to help find town blues. Most situations town would have to lynch correctly three times to win, and scum would need to force 3 mislynches (although with extreme luck/bad blue play they can do it with 2), which would make this probably a fairly balanced setup. Now, of course I got carried away designing that, but the point remains, this is not a themed setup. This is a normal setup, and should always be so in my opinion. Now, I don't think anyone is arguing that most of the numbered games, and most BC games etc, are normal, and that caller games, PTP/PYP are themed. The grey area are the games that fall somewhere in between, Ace is very fond of those, and so am I. Some Mafia Game (Unusual roles, closed setup) Closed Casket Mafia (No flips, unusual roles, closed setup) JubJub Mafia (Alignment only flips, unusual roles, closed setup) Storm Mafia (role name only flips, Unusual roles, closed setup) I played in three of those games and hosted one. Every single one of them played out almost completely like a normal mafia game. The roles were all in check, every single one of those was a fun game (most of them came down to 3 person lylo/kingmaker), and they all worked out great. Where do we want to put these games? My suggestion: Leave it up to the host. Now, I personally solved this in storm mafia by adding this to my OP: This is a closed normal setup. There are however variations of roles that can be considered non-normal. Thus you should treat this game as something of a borderline themed/normal. The distinction is somewhat hard to make, so just keep it in mind as you enter the game. If the game feels like a normal game, plays mostly like a normal game, and is quite fun, I don't really see the point in calling it a themed for the sake of there being a random weird-ass role in it. Even the flips aren't hard to deal with. Conclusion: I think it should be up to the hosts themselves how to categorize their games. I think we don't have a problem with people misrepresenting their games. I think most people realize that closed games, even when categorized as normal, are more likely to have surprising bits in them. | ||
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
I disagree with what you call normal on three major points. First normal games must be Semi-Open or Open, or we´ll have endless discussions about irrelevant things. If the players can´t see that it´s a normal game it´s not normal, because not knowing changes the game too much. Secondly normal games should have simple roles. Vigis are either limited-shot or unlimited-shot, they are not also paranoid-gun-owners or checks as red. Alignment-Cops and full Cops are normal, weak or insane Cops are themed. It doesn´t have to do with wether or not the roles change the game a lot. Having townies that can´t be protected change a lot for the medic but so do roleblockers, but we consider roleblockers normal because they are a simpler and more staple part of games. IMO Standard roles are these: vigi, doctor, miller, cop, veteran, framer, godfather, roleblocker, mason, survivor and SK, and their most common variants (1-shot vigi, investigation-immune SK), nothing more. Finally I think this matters because there is a difference between normal and themed, and that is when they are run on this forum. Roughly, every other game is supposed to be normal, and every other is supposed to be themed, that´s more or less what this forum wants. Therefore it´s important to define which game is themed and which is normal, and that definition should be based on what the players think. The host may make any kind of game he wants, I would never dispute that, but wether or not the game is called normal or themed according to this forum, that´s not up to the host, that depends on what kind of game he´s made. If it´s a themed game then he can´t call it a normal game. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On May 21 2012 23:41 Forumite wrote: Your suggested setup, with the Macho Roleblocker, while it looks balanced, has two blues that I would consider non-standard. The busy medic is a borderline case, while the Macho Roleblocker looks much worse, town roleblockers are very unusual, and I never heard of Macho roles before, which easily qualify it for non-standard. You not knowing about something doesn't make it non-standard. In addition, Town Roleblockers are a pretty damn normal role. On May 21 2012 23:41 Forumite wrote: First normal games must be Semi-Open or Open, or we´ll have endless discussions about irrelevant things. If the players can´t see that it´s a normal game it´s not normal, because not knowing changes the game too much. Again, I've played tons of closed setup games (some mafia game, closed casket, xlviii, jubjub). Them being closed changed almost nothing in how the game was approached. I completely disagree with forcing semi-open or open setups, as I see it as irrelevant. On May 21 2012 23:41 Forumite wrote: Secondly normal games should have simple roles. Vigis are either limited-shot or unlimited-shot, they are not also paranoid-gun-owners or checks as red. Alignment-Cops and full Cops are normal, weak or insane Cops are themed. It doesn´t have to do with wether or not the roles change the game a lot. Having townies that can´t be protected change a lot for the medic but so do roleblockers, but we consider roleblockers normal because they are a simpler and more staple part of games. IMO Standard roles are these: vigi, doctor, miller, cop, veteran, framer, godfather, roleblocker, mason, survivor and SK, and their most common variants (1-shot vigi, investigation-immune SK), nothing more. Everyone has their definition of simple. Note that for example foolishness's original suggestion didn't include survivor 3rd parties, but did include a traitor, which you didn't include!!! As long as the roles don't change the game they're fine. Would you also consider lurker-vigis themed? On May 21 2012 23:41 Forumite wrote: Finally I think this matters because there is a difference between normal and themed, and that is when they are run on this forum. Roughly, every other game is supposed to be normal, and every other is supposed to be themed, that´s more or less what this forum wants. Therefore it´s important to define which game is themed and which is normal, and that definition should be based on what the players think. The host may make any kind of game he wants, I would never dispute that, but wether or not the game is called normal or themed according to this forum, that´s not up to the host, that depends on what kind of game he´s made. If it´s a themed game then he can´t call it a normal game. There has never been a problem with the hosts deciding it. So why fix it if it aint broken? | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
On May 21 2012 23:58 syllogism wrote: Forumite your definition is just that, your own. It is not the definition TL mafia games use and will not be that. Not to sound rude but your assertive tone in the active games thread makes it sound like you are in charge of what constitutes normal and what doesn't. I probably did come across as rude, that wasn´t my intention. I still want to know which definition TL mafia games. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On May 22 2012 00:49 Forumite wrote: I probably did come across as rude, that wasn´t my intention. I still want to know which definition TL mafia games. There is no definition for TL mafia games at the moment. I don't think there should be one, and a few people agree with me, although some probably disagree too. | ||
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
On May 22 2012 01:09 Palmar wrote: There is no definition for TL mafia games at the moment. I don't think there should be one, and a few people agree with me, although some probably disagree too. I agree with you on most games, some are obviously themed (votetrading and item mechanics) and some are obviously normal, but I think the current gray area is way too big. You say we shouldn´t fix something that isn´t broken, but if we call the same game different things, then I think there´s a problem. Adding a semi-normal category wouldn´t help, but an unofficial definition might, more or less what this thread was about. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
 Just make the Rolecop normal since the BP can't consecutively prot him anyway 1.) I agree with that post - I consider a setup like described as completely normal since there are no surprise mechanics or game changing twists that you need to read the OP for. 2.) However, the people taking care of the lists need someway to classify the games. While I may consider some things normal, if we have an overflow of Normals and not enough Themes, then the queue gets backed up and people start creating crap Theme setups just to host. 3.) I'm fine with the way things are for the most part anyway. As long as there are enough games being hosted to satisfy demand I think Foolishness and whoever else is running the Active Games thread have done their job. /exits thread without reading anything else | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5245 Posts
I think Palmar makes a good point. Having a few uncommon roles doesn't make it themed. It really doesn't take much to understand what Macho means, or what Busy means. Even if you don't list those modifiers in the thread OP, the only people who will have to contend with those mechanics are the blue roles; everyone else won't know about those and just treat the game as a normal game. Which makes it seem pretty normal despite a few off beat roles. However, I think the crux of the problem was that because there aren't any set rules, the panel of TL judges had to continuously make judgement calls on whether or not a game was Themed or Normal, and the reason why it needs to be determined if it's themed or normal is because of the Queue and what not.You say that the host should just determine that, but then opinions clash, insults fly, and an innocent iGrok is alienated. We don't want things like that. I honestly don't have a good solution in mind, but it's important to remember that just leaving things nebulous will just lead to more arguements. There either needs to be set rules (they can be loose or whatever), or some sort of agreement needs to be met. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
What does that mean? Like, depending on the circumstances, a key ROLEBLOCK can "change the flow of the game excessively" in my opinion - maybe our definition of "flow of the game" is different, but that's the problem isn't it? For my part, I'd be okay calling anything "balanced" Normal - that is to say, the setup has been designed, discussed and approved by someone I trust to know whether or not a game is balanced. Honestly, that's subconsciously how I differentiate between Normal and Themed: Normal = Balanced, Themed = Imbalanced. I realize this is a broad generalization and probably mostly incorrect, but when I'm deciding what to play, I tend toward Normal games because I assume they're balanced. I don't care about what roles are in it - there could be a 3rd Party Deus Ex Machina in the game, but if it's balanced, I'm okay with it being called Normal. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
I mean, I don't know how it would be done, but you guys are like, good at this shit. | ||
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