|
Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
This topic should not come as a big surprise to anyone. Right here I'm going to define the rigorous rules for what encompasses a normal game.
Let's start off by thinking about what should be accomplished by defining a set of rules. The main thing is that we want to encourage play that is based off of analysis and not roles. A normal game should not have an over-dependence on roles. Furthermore, the majority of roles included should be those that promote good play and generally require thought upon using. Normal games also need to be as balanced as possible, so any role that is volatile depending on how well it is used should not be included.
We are abandoning the previous rule that hosts are allowed to make one "twist" to their normal game. Instead I will give you a list of what is allowed in a normal game, and you can choose how you want to set it up yourself. Yes, this is going to make normal games more "standard", and there is less room for hosts to come up with a unique setup. But we feel that this is how normal games should be. The themed games can handle the rest.
I'm not going to lie, there is some amount of subjectivity in this list. For everything listed we had to answer the questions, "Is this 'standard' for TL Mafia? Does this promote good play? Does this provide an atmosphere good for analysis?" Very frequently many could not agree on the answers. Hence here I am, asking for your feedback on what you think needs to be changed to the following list. The list is not absolute; we are always willing to change it to accommodate new rules/roles. If ever you feel like something should be added to the list you may petition to me to get the new thing added.
Grand list of rules for a normal game
Blue roles: Night vigi, Detective - 4 types (Parity cop, Alignment cop, Role cop, Standard cop - Alignment + Role), Watcher, Tracker, Veteran, Medic, Mad Hatter, Jailkeeper, Mason.
Mafia roles: Godfather, Roleblocker, Mason, Medic
-Mafia team gets to choose which member gets what role
-No KP cost roles (e.g. frame/cover for 0.5KP, etc)
Misc Roles: Miller, Nosy Neighbor
3rd Party: Serial Killer (SK), Traitor
Serial Killer: Gets 1KP per night. Bulletproof. Wins if last one standing.
-May be information proof (i.e. can't be checked/tracked/whatever) at host's discretion
-May slightly alter bulletproof and 1KP per night mechanic depending on the setup
-Host must rigorously define weird ending scenario's in case of ties.
Traitor: May be recruitable or non-recruitable.
Elections: Allowed. May have Mayor or Pardoner or both (typically both).
-Mayor still decides day 1 lynch.
-Mayor typically has extra voting power (i.e. their vote counts as 2 or 3 instead of 1), but this is optional
Voting Systems: Majority and Plurality okay. No instant majority.
No Bodyguards!!
-Elected officials get extra night life or check immunity or both (host's choice, depends on setup).
--Limited use roles are okay. e.g. Detective only gets 2 checks for whole game. Multi-shot vigi's are okay for large games.
--Any type of PM mechanic is okay, including flamewheel mechanic (each player gets to mason with 2 other players of their choosing for the entire game).
--No-flip games are okay. Alignment only flip games okay.
--No paranoid/naive/whatever variants for any role.
--No assassins. No village idiots.
--No double lynches (use vigi's if you need more town KP).
--No day vigi. No bulletproof. No vigi variants. No dreamflower. No vote altering roles (Mayor exception). No janitor.
|
Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
That the topic title sounds like the title of a thesis was not intentional.
|
It was totally intentional
|
On April 23 2012 13:08 Foolishness wrote:
This topic should not come as a big surprise to anyone. Right here I'm going to define the rigorous rules for what encompasses a normal game.
Let's start off by thinking about what should be accomplished by defining a set of rules. The main thing is that we want to encourage play that is based off of analysis and not roles. A normal game should not have an over-dependence on roles. Furthermore, the majority of roles included should be those that promote good play and generally require thought upon using. Normal games also need to be as balanced as possible, so any role that is volatile depending on how well it is used should not be included.
We are abandoning the previous rule that hosts are allowed to make one "twist" to their normal game. Instead I will give you a list of what is allowed in a normal game, and you can choose how you want to set it up yourself. Yes, this is going to make normal games more "standard", and there is less room for hosts to come up with a unique setup. But we feel that this is how normal games should be. The themed games can handle the rest.
I'm not going to lie, there is some amount of subjectivity in this list. For everything listed we had to answer the questions, "Is this 'standard' for TL Mafia? Does this promote good play? Does this provide an atmosphere good for analysis?" Very frequently many could not agree on the answers. Hence here I am, asking for your feedback on what you think needs to be changed to the following list. The list is not absolute; we are always willing to change it to accommodate new rules/roles. If ever you feel like something should be added to the list you may petition to me to get the new thing added.
Grand list of rules for a normal game
Blue roles: Night vigi, Detective - 4 types (Parity cop, Alignment cop, Role cop, Standard cop - Alignment + Role), Watcher, Tracker, Veteran, Medic, Mad Hatter, Jailkeeper, Mason.
Mafia roles: Godfather, Roleblocker, Mason, Medic
-Mafia team gets to choose which member gets what role
-No KP cost roles (e.g. frame/cover for 0.5KP, etc)
Misc Roles: Miller, Nosy Neighbor
3rd Party: Serial Killer (SK), Traitor
Serial Killer: Gets 1KP per night. Bulletproof. Wins if last one standing.
-May be information proof (i.e. can't be checked/tracked/whatever) at host's discretion
-May slightly alter bulletproof and 1KP per night mechanic depending on the setup
-Host must rigorously define weird ending scenario's in case of ties.
Traitor: May be recruitable or non-recruitable.
Elections: Allowed. May have Mayor or Pardoner or both (typically both).
-Mayor still decides day 1 lynch.
-Mayor typically has extra voting power (i.e. their vote counts as 2 or 3 instead of 1), but this is optional
No Bodyguards!!
-Elected officials get extra night life or check immunity or both (host's choice, depends on setup).
--Limited use roles are okay. e.g. Detective only gets 2 checks for whole game. Multi-shot vigi's are okay for large games.
--Any type of PM mechanic is okay, including flamewheel mechanic (each player gets to mason with 2 other players of their choosing for the entire game).
--No-flip games are okay. Alignment only flip games okay.
--No paranoid/naive/whatever variants for any role.
--No assassins. No village idiots.
--No double lynches (use vigi's if you need more town KP).
--No day vigi. No bulletproof. No vigi variants. No dreamflower. No vote altering roles (Mayor exception). No janitor.
![[image loading]](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/154/912/berneydidnotread.gif?1318992465)
...will comment later tho!
|
United States22154 Posts
I vehemently disagree with no bodyguards, I feel that it removes the majority of the power of mayor roles.
I vehemently disagree with removing sanities,
I don't understand why you want to remove day vigis and vote altering roles.
I don't think we need stringent guidelines to limit normal games, rather this should be a set of guidelines, which you should adhere to, and the balancing team should have veto power over what constitutes a normal setup. I dislike making this into a set of hard and fast rules because that kill the entire creativity of hosts. Things like the coroner mayor from LSB's no flip normal, or the mechanics from jubjub which in my mind are normal would be disallowed under this type of ironclad rule.
TL:DR people should have to actually listen to the balance team, we should be able to have an open discussion about what is "normal", without having a wall of ironclad rules.
My counter proposal is this. Make these guidelines, have anyone hosting a normal talk to the balancing team, if the balance team gives the goahead to anything interesting, then its normal, if the balance team says "not normal" their word is final. We can have an open discussion of any funky mechanics people want to consider as normal openly in this thread as it come up. (E.G. someone wants to talk about allowing jacks in their upcoming normal)
|
Bodyguards are terrible though. They require so much extra to be added in for balancing and they are another problem when stacked with Mayor/Pardoner that are immune to investigation.
|
United States22154 Posts
On April 23 2012 13:22 Ace wrote:
Bodyguards are terrible though. They require so much extra to be added in for balancing and they are another problem when stacked with Mayor/Pardoner that are immune to investigation.
But extra lives and a handful of extra votes basically remove the majority of the incentive for scum to run.
Mayor becomes a glorified vet with a couple extra votes, whoop-di-do, as scum I'm going to lounge in the shade during the campaign and if its someone annoying I'll just stack kills. Investigation immune is a not a problem in my mind, you shouldn't be relying on dts with things like framers running around anyway.
|
Which is the problem: It's a glorified Vet that requires you to add more KP to the game. Just one 1-shot Vet is good enough for most games. Giving someone a 2 shotter that you can't even directly aim for? That's ridiculous. Seriously, "Follow the Cop" is a breaking strategy and having players hide behind bodyguards is the same thing.
At the very least I hope we are talking about some other kind of bodyguards. The old mechanic where if you targeted the Mayor/Pardoner and your shots failed was just bad. If you target them then at least the Bodyguards should die. It still doesn't solve the problem of allowing a player to be near invincible early in the game which should never be possible.
Investigation immune IS a problem. If you have Framers in the game then allow them to act on the Mayor. It is bigger than relying on a Detective. It's more about why should that player be NK immune and Investigation Immune? Seriously why is that role getting so much power? Extra votes + instant lynch should be good enough. The threat of death on any given night should be a realistic possibility for everyone outside of an SK and the rare Vet role.
|
are framers not considered normal? I just noticed a lack of them in the mafia list.
That and
edit: that and nothing else, I'm just retarded
|
On April 23 2012 13:24 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 13:22 Ace wrote:
Bodyguards are terrible though. They require so much extra to be added in for balancing and they are another problem when stacked with Mayor/Pardoner that are immune to investigation. But extra lives and a handful of extra votes basically remove the majority of the incentive for scum to run. Mayor becomes a glorified vet with a couple extra votes, whoop-di-do, as scum I'm going to lounge in the shade during the campaign and if its someone annoying I'll just stack kills. Investigation immune is a not a problem in my mind, you shouldn't be relying on dts with things like framers running around anyway.
From a role perspective, yes. Mayor also gets a bunch of unearned cred for whatever reason, so theres that too. I've never liked bodyguards as they swing more than a simple vet+votes would.
|
On April 23 2012 13:29 wherebugsgo wrote:
are framers not considered normal? I just noticed a lack of them in the mafia list.
That and
edit: that and nothing else, I'm just retarded
Imo Framers are not normal, and are in fact usually useless. Detectives with varied sanity are much better for gameplay to me.
|
United States22154 Posts
On April 23 2012 13:34 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 13:29 wherebugsgo wrote:
are framers not considered normal? I just noticed a lack of them in the mafia list.
That and
edit: that and nothing else, I'm just retarded Imo Framers are not normal, and are in fact usually useless. Detectives with varied sanity are much better for gameplay to me.
I think framers are fine, although I'll agree they have low success rate.
Fully agree with sanities, I think they are an important way to balance dts.
|
I agree with GMarshal. I think that these guidelines need to be roughly followed, but that the balancing commitee needs to make the ultimate decisions.
|
What was the reasoning for removing bodyguards from the list of normal mechanics? I can see if there's some argument for why we should find other ways of doing things, like what Ace is saying, but I would consider them "normal" for TL mafia.
I would maybe argue sanities can have a place in normal games, but I don't think that's a huge loss, so I don't see a reason to. Same goes for things like weak medics and cops. I could see them in a normal game, but it's not like they have to be, depending on how we redefine 'normal'.
However, what was the reasoning for removing double lynches? I think they serve a role in adding an extra dynamic into the game, and another layer of discussion. They aren't overly complicated, and they open up more avenues of play for town and scum.
Next, what is your opinion on mafia variants of town roles? For example, mafia vigilantes, role cops, etc.
Last, what voting systems are considered normal? Only majority and plurality? Or would instant majority be considered normal as well?
|
On April 23 2012 13:19 GMarshal wrote:
I vehemently disagree with no bodyguards, I feel that it removes the majority of the power of mayor roles.
I vehemently disagree with removing sanities,
I don't understand why you want to remove day vigis and vote altering roles.
I don't think we need stringent guidelines to limit normal games, rather this should be a set of guidelines, which you should adhere to, and the balancing team should have veto power over what constitutes a normal setup. I dislike making this into a set of hard and fast rules because that kill the entire creativity of hosts. Things like the coroner mayor from LSB's no flip normal, or the mechanics from jubjub which in my mind are normal would be disallowed under this type of ironclad rule.
TL:DR people should have to actually listen to the balance team, we should be able to have an open discussion about what is "normal", without having a wall of ironclad rules.
My counter proposal is this. Make these guidelines, have anyone hosting a normal talk to the balancing team, if the balance team gives the goahead to anything interesting, then its normal, if the balance team says "not normal" their word is final. We can have an open discussion of any funky mechanics people want to consider as normal openly in this thread as it come up. (E.G. someone wants to talk about allowing jacks in their upcoming normal)
Who is said balancing team? there are like only 4-5 people I would personally ever ask to help balance one of my games.
I only ask as I typically do not see the ones from the active games thread used in the credits for balancing of said game.
|
On April 23 2012 13:41 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 13:19 GMarshal wrote:
I vehemently disagree with no bodyguards, I feel that it removes the majority of the power of mayor roles.
I vehemently disagree with removing sanities,
I don't understand why you want to remove day vigis and vote altering roles.
I don't think we need stringent guidelines to limit normal games, rather this should be a set of guidelines, which you should adhere to, and the balancing team should have veto power over what constitutes a normal setup. I dislike making this into a set of hard and fast rules because that kill the entire creativity of hosts. Things like the coroner mayor from LSB's no flip normal, or the mechanics from jubjub which in my mind are normal would be disallowed under this type of ironclad rule.
TL:DR people should have to actually listen to the balance team, we should be able to have an open discussion about what is "normal", without having a wall of ironclad rules.
My counter proposal is this. Make these guidelines, have anyone hosting a normal talk to the balancing team, if the balance team gives the goahead to anything interesting, then its normal, if the balance team says "not normal" their word is final. We can have an open discussion of any funky mechanics people want to consider as normal openly in this thread as it come up. (E.G. someone wants to talk about allowing jacks in their upcoming normal)
Who is said balancing team? there are like only 4-5 people I would personally ever ask to help balance one of my games.
On December 05 2010 15:34 Foolishness wrote:
About balancing your game:
All games must be balanced to ensure that people have fun while playing. Nothing sucks worse to lose a game only to find out your chance of winning was next to nil from the start. Please note that TL Mafia may be different from other forum mafia sites, and some setups that work on other sites may not be appropriate here. If you are hosting a game you must get the setup approved by one of the following members before starting your game:
Incognito, Ver, Foolishness, flamewheel, GMarshal
People on this list may refuse to look at your game for whatever reason (i.e. they are too busy with life). This is a volunteer job so please be understanding.
If you are an experienced host or player you may 'petition' to include yourself on this list. You must have at least 2 games of hosting experience and several games of playing experience to be considered to be on this list. Send me a PM if you wish to be on the list.
Active Games thread OP
|
United States22154 Posts
|
On April 23 2012 13:42 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 13:41 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 23 2012 13:19 GMarshal wrote:
I vehemently disagree with no bodyguards, I feel that it removes the majority of the power of mayor roles.
I vehemently disagree with removing sanities,
I don't understand why you want to remove day vigis and vote altering roles.
I don't think we need stringent guidelines to limit normal games, rather this should be a set of guidelines, which you should adhere to, and the balancing team should have veto power over what constitutes a normal setup. I dislike making this into a set of hard and fast rules because that kill the entire creativity of hosts. Things like the coroner mayor from LSB's no flip normal, or the mechanics from jubjub which in my mind are normal would be disallowed under this type of ironclad rule.
TL:DR people should have to actually listen to the balance team, we should be able to have an open discussion about what is "normal", without having a wall of ironclad rules.
My counter proposal is this. Make these guidelines, have anyone hosting a normal talk to the balancing team, if the balance team gives the goahead to anything interesting, then its normal, if the balance team says "not normal" their word is final. We can have an open discussion of any funky mechanics people want to consider as normal openly in this thread as it come up. (E.G. someone wants to talk about allowing jacks in their upcoming normal)
Who is said balancing team? there are like only 4-5 people I would personally ever ask to help balance one of my games. Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 15:34 Foolishness wrote:
About balancing your game:
All games must be balanced to ensure that people have fun while playing. Nothing sucks worse to lose a game only to find out your chance of winning was next to nil from the start. Please note that TL Mafia may be different from other forum mafia sites, and some setups that work on other sites may not be appropriate here. If you are hosting a game you must get the setup approved by one of the following members before starting your game:
Incognito, Ver, Foolishness, flamewheel, GMarshal
People on this list may refuse to look at your game for whatever reason (i.e. they are too busy with life). This is a volunteer job so please be understanding.
If you are an experienced host or player you may 'petition' to include yourself on this list. You must have at least 2 games of hosting experience and several games of playing experience to be considered to be on this list. Send me a PM if you wish to be on the list.
Active Games thread OP
 I have never gotten any of their go ahead on my games lol
then again I have been hosting longer than at least 4 of them have been playing mafia on TL?
|
Regarding BGs: Extra nightlife is pretty useless if the mafia team knows you have it, and check immunity is almost completely useless to townies. You're gonna have a huge incentive for scum to run for mayor (extra nightlife protects from vigis, check immunity from DTs), and a huge disincentive for townies to run, as it's basically suicidal.
Without BG's, townie mayors are just gonna be tying up medic protection (and you know the mayors are gonna call for it, and most medics will probably give it). That just leads to the same situation as before where the mayor and pardoner aren't touchable, except now the town doesn't have medics to help them.
I see where you're coming from, but IMO it's essentially taking a blue role out of the game 95% of the time.
|
Since any pm mechanic is okay, would my mute mechanic from the last normal be ok?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
